Attempt at cultural intimidation in Louisville, Kentucky. From WorldNetDaily, with thanks to Tombeth:
A federal judge in Louisville, Kentucky, granted a temporary restraining order prohibiting a prayer from being said during graduation ceremonies at an area high school after a Muslim student on the planning committee objected and garnered the help of the American Civil Liberties Union.Arshiya Saiyed, a senior at Russell County High School, said she was working on plans for the ceremony, scheduled for last night, with the senior panel when the issue came up, according to WHAS-TV in Louisville.
"Terms like Jesus Christ, heavenly father, I talked about the fact I was Muslim and the prayers in the past were offensive to me," the 17-year-old said.
Saiyed claimed that almost immediately after objecting to the prayer, she was harassed by a group of students. One student told her he wanted her out of the country, she related to WHAS.
The Constitution for the United States does not grant anyone the right to not be offended. That should be the end of the discussion.
I do not believe in G-d, yet I am not offended by public prayer. Why? Because I view it as a cultural expression, in much the same way as music, dance, or art are all expressions of our culture.
It is high time for the American people, and the people of the West in general, to stop hating themselves and to embrace the beauty of our heritage, a heritage that was bought and paid for by our ancestors with their blood. Our fallen heros did not lose their lives to bestow this gift upon us, they gave their lives for this cause. Now it is our turn to honor that sacrifice.
Khan, when a public school in the US is muslim majority, and they start calling azn in school and breaking 5 times a day to pray to allah, you'll object.
Religion has no place in public school.
Then again, I personally think the public schooling monopoly should be busted all-together, or at least cut substantially. Then parents will be able to choose where to send their kids - and guess what? Most will opt not to indoctrinate them at religious schools because then they will be wasting their money on their children acquiring useless knowledge and skills related to religious dogma.
In the future, when muslims do control public schools and get the ACLU to protect their right to practice their religion, you too will be grateful that in your corner of smallville, you can send your children to an affordable private school ('free' public schooling creates scarcity). There they will learn to question and think in the absence of the 'mental abuse' that is faith.
Hmmm, takes me back...(waaay back); inspite of being atheisticly inclined, I remember thinking "Thank G*d we're out of here!" at Grad.
;)
Kick that student out of the country. She certainly would have no objections if someone said "Allah" during the ceremony. And let this be a lesson to the paleos who want to use the Muslims as their anti-secular footsoldiers: They don't recognize the legitimacy of Christianity in a Christian country anymore than the secularists themselves. It's all Allah or nothing. Hypocrites and morons, the both of them.
Sorry. I am Jewish. I went all through grade school coerced into singing Christmas carols...'Christ, our Lord' etc. My parents taught me to be tolerant, their pretty songs, sing along but just move your lips when you come to 'Christ our Lord' - your Jewish, you don't say that.
Invocations to 'Jesus Christ' in public schools IN THE NAME OF ALL THE ASSEMBLED. Is bullying and arrogant. It is NOT non-denominational prayer.
I honestly think the ACLU is the most evil organization on the planet. They are like an hiv virus that has infected america. And the muslims and other deviants are the infectious dieseases rotting away at America. Until the ACLU and similar oganizations are banned we will not be able to fight the jihadists either at home or abroad
I honestly think the ACLU is the most evil organization on the planet. They are like an hiv virus that has infected america. And the muslims and other deviants are the infectious dieseases rotting away at America. Until the ACLU and similar oganizations are banned we will not be able to fight the jihadists either at home or abroad
I'm puzzled by this and by poetcomic1's comment. I though prayer in public school was generally banned. Someone (not a Muslim) even objected to Pledge of Allegiance in California and won in some courts?
I'm puzzled by this and by poetcomic1's comment. I though prayer in public school was generally banned. Someone (not a Muslim) even objected to Pledge of Allegiance in California and won in some courts?
I'm offended driving through a neighborhood and seeing a mosque. It doesn't fit in. And I know the ideology behind it.
Can we get the ACLU to fight to have them razed?
Poetcomic 1 has either not been in a public school for over 40+ years, or is fabricating the experience. Also, I think he failed to imbibe the tolerance that his parents tried to teach him.
Todd
Whatever you think about religion in public schools, this particular case is not about it. It's about Muslims using our Constitution and laws to advance their own agenda, which is asserting Islam as a threatening power in America over the secular state and the other religions.
I don't see any buddhists or animists or Shinto believers raising hell over Christian prayer in public schools.
And it's not about being "offended." The "offense" argument is a canard, just like in the Mohammed cartoons case. The Muslim girl has learned how to advance Muslim interests by crying "religious discrimination" to silence the majority. It's all about power and dominion and Muslim supremacy.
Erasing any trace of Judeo-Christianity in our schools can only help the advance of Islam.
Your stance clears the way for that bleak future you envisage. In doing so you are an enabler of our civilization's demise.
Nobody is forced to pray. That is the freedom of religion right there. Stopping others from praying, however, is where the ACLU, steps over that line and attacks Christianity. If this muslim doesn't want to pray, don't, but it is beyond the pale to argue that her classmates should not pray either.
No doubt, if the prayer was a muslim one, this girl would not have objected. So we know that her cause is not one of securalism, but one of anti-infidelism. And the ACLU, being anti-Christian, is more than happy to ket their kicks in too.
I think that the law is that for graduations, student-led prayer is permissible. It seems that Aryshia was with a group of students who were planning some of their graduation ceremony. One has to wonder if she was put on the committee by someone in administration, hoping that she would do just what she did, whine and complain and become a victim. Graduations at the high school and college level have become social and legal battlegrounds. And, they have become platforms for celebrities and politicians to grandstand too. Sadly, it might just be better at public high schools and universities to have the ceremony consist of the traditional song (hopefully that can stay!) brief welcoming remarks, and the distribution of diplomas.
WHY ARE YOU SO HOT TO MAKE NON CHRISTIANS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS PARTICIPATE IN PRAYERS TO JESUS CHRIST, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER?
You are bullies and asses. This is arrogant and totally un-American. Perhaps Theistic non-denominational prayer (at a stretch) but if you don't see why this is intolerable. I won't even try to explain.
I'll avoid the Church/State separation debate, but if the ACLU objects to this one prayer, how will they feel when their client has his way all the way, and they'd have to have 5 prayers, and that too, all in the direction of Mecca? Nobody would then even be able to claim that it's a deist, rather than an Islamic, prayer
So much for Jesus being a "Muslim prophet."
I'm generally opposed to prayer in public schools. But I'm generally opposed to public schools, period. So many problems and cases would simply go away if we privatized education and gave the poor generous education stamps. Then parents could pick whatever bias they choose instead of the Marxist NEA bias which pervades our public schools. Obviously the school in question is an exception, which is why the ACLU is all over it.
Arshiya's myspace blog.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=40343916
Poetcomic, this is a war with islam. In this war, you'd do well to side with the Christians. They are the main capable adversary, and main target of, islam.
In the evolution to seeing public students praying 5 times a day to a rock, first Christian prayer must be removed. Step One. Once it is removed, then secular prayers are instituted. Step Two. Then they are removed. Once removed, then no prayers are instituted. Step Three. Then they are removed. Step Four. And then they are replaced by prayers to rapist, pedophile warlord.
That is the progression in the western world aided and abetted by the ACLU.
That is the dynamic that the left has been putting in motion for years now. Soon the last stage of that devolution will be implemented, and watch out. Then you will have something to complain about.
If you live in the western world, side with the Christians on this one.
I have a feeling that Poetcomic 1 is not what he claims to be, but is rather trying to stir up a bunch of angry reactions. I suspect that we have a Moslem troll, since he made such an effort to explain that he was Jewish right of the bat. Also, the lack of knowledge about what has gone on in public classrooms for decades is a dead give away.
Whoever is getting their knickers in a twist over
a CHRISTIAN PRAYER should THINK again. REMEMBER
THE CATASTROPHE OF BYZANTINE WHERE FELLOW CHRISTIANS WEAKENED THEN HELPED TO DESTROY CONSTANTINOPLE.
I am an Agnostic who has attended a Catholic Mass,gone to Buddhist and Hindu temples etc without a qualm because they are all our allies and THEIR FAITH HELPS TO PROTECT US FROM ISLAM.
Haven't actually met an Intolerant Jew, am sceptical 'poetcomic 1' is who he/she says they are. More likely to be a Muslim Poster I think masquerading and making the Jew the Scapegoat-so what's new??
Let's end this endless bickering over 'God' and concentrate on defending our lives and liberty against a ruthless foe who is happy to see Infidels quarrelling among themselves.
KEEP THIS THOUGHT IN YOUR HEADS ; WE ARE ALL INFIDELS TO MUSLIMS...
As for Arshiya-if she is so offended then let her leave the U.S for a Sharia paradise where the caterwauling from Minarets can be heard 5 times a day.
WORRY-
I must confess my age - I went to grade school in the late 1950's. Before Madelyn Murray O'Horror (a woman I truly loathe) went to work.
I will ignore your accusations. I just beg for you not to be so quick to to tar anyone who disagrees with you as 'the enemy' and a 'Moslem Infiltrator'. It makes you sounds ignorant and incapable of rational discussion.
It is vitally important to bring together the genuinely 'freethinking' left (what remains of it) with the conservative and religious 'right' (if that term has any meaning any more) To fight MILITANT ISLAM.
I am more concerned with the effect all your hot-button issues OUTSIDE of Islamic Jihad will have on alienating friends and allies.
somethingaboutislam:
I am not 'against' the Christians because I don't think Jewish children in public schools should be forced to take part in specifically Christian prayers. I generally live in terror of
what the ACLU will do next - so that is not the point.
I feel completely unthreatened personally by Christianity - I just felt Jewish beliefs should be ACKNOWLEDGED and respected. I do shrug ironically as I watch certain Apocalyptic Christians and Apocalyptic Iranians both eagerly anticipate a gory slaughter of Jews to bring in their 'Divine Agendas'.
Mr. Poetcomic1:
When you use caps in your post and then refer to people in here as bullies and asses, I have every reason to suspect that you are a troll. Also, I note that you simply wish to ignore my suspcions, rather than deny them. I never referred to you as an "enemy" or a Moslem infiltrator, but as a possible Moslem troll. Try in the future not to put words into people's mouths, and you may get the rational discussion that you claim to seek. As for the rest of your most recent post, it speaks for itself. You may respond to this post if you wish, but I will no longer respond to your posts.
Worry-
Huh? I have been putting on dozens of posts for months - read some of them.
If I were ramroding this show … this is what I would do. When it came time for the prayer I would ask the audience to bow their heads for a moment of silent prayer. I would proceed to publicly explain we are doing this as to not offend our muslim student/s ( and give their names ) that have objected to and offended by the terms “Jesus Christ and heavenly father”. Oh and so we are not sued by the ACLU. Sorry folks but these are the times we live in today.
Amen …
And if “Arshiya Saiyed” wears hajib … I would tell her to give it up or no graduation for you!
I agree with what some of you have said.
I also think, whatever religion you follow/don't follow, that the US, UK etc were founded as Judeo-Christian nations - nothing wrong with that.It is part of the culture.
This is NOT about secularism, public schools etc etc.
Have any Jews, Buddhists or others complained like this? Generally no. They strive to fit in and not cause a fuss.
This is "the thin edge of the wedge". This is someone spreading the muslim agenda, pure and simple.
All this is happening in spades in Europe. They (muslims) get one law changed, then another, then another till it is too late for anyone to do anything.
Minorities like muslims have now gained huge power in Europe. They play the "race card", the "victim card" and the "islamophobe card" all the time. If you say the slightest thing against them - you get arrested! Ask Brigitte Bardot - she has gone to jail countless times for protesting the islamification of France.
No matter whether you are relious or not - we must unite against the scourge of islam in order to survive. We are tolerant of each other: they are not tolerant of us. As if any arab country would let you pray to your own god? No reciprocity whatever.
If this girl doesn't like the prayers she should go to another school. She is challenging your heritage and your culture under the guise of "relious tolerance".
I urge all of you to read "The Force of Reason" by Oriana Fallaci. You will then understand what is going on. The left and the muslims are working together to islamify the world.
Sucking up to muslims will not save you - you are an infidel whether you are left wing or right wing.
Better to say one little prayer you disagree with than to lose what has been won.
I say - UNITE!! There is no other way.
Forcing one's religion on another is a sin.
The sword that cuts all ways.
Dear Gramfan-
As for your
"Jews.. strive to fit in and don't make a fuss"
I was under the impression that I don't HAVE to STRIVE to fit in and I'm ALLOWED to make a fuss.
I don't need you 'dispensing' your freedoms to me as you see fit.
Allowing 'public-address' prayer to an assembled group saying "Jesus Christ Our Lord" is humiliating to someone who is not a Christian. Period. You are speaking on my behalf.
YOU are the thin edge of the web. 'Prayer circles' etc. on school grounds and special rooms for Moslems to pray are the same package deal. It is desperately important to support freedom of conscience and preserve the sanctity of individual conscience.
If you check out Arshiya's myspace website listed earlier, she lists that she is active in the Young Democrats. Isn't it interesting how the Muslims have synergy with the left when they want to suppress Christianity and at the same time with the neo-nazi extreme right when they want to attack Jews.
Since graduation ceremonies are student led, and Arshiya is on the planning committee, there is nothing to force her to participate in the student led prayers or to prevent her from offering an alternative prayer after the other students spoke. The issue wasn't her "right" not to be offended but the efforts by Muslims and their left-secularist allies to forcibly crush any expression contrary to their narrow worldview.
Since the dhimmi judge has issued his order, the best response would be for the students, right after the national anthem, to "spontaneously" recite the Our Father. Once the words of their prayer are out, no judge can make them unspoken.
Hmmm this might be a start of an anti school jihad. They might be worried that our children are not as stupid as their and want to scare them into line. Check this out:
Saudi Men Who Rode School Bus Arrested
By KEITH MORELLI kmorelli@tampatrib.com
Published: May 20, 2006
TAMPA - Two Saudi men were arrested Friday after they boarded a school bus and rode to Wharton High School in New Tampa.
Students on the bus became alarmed, as did the bus driver, who called ahead. Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies met the bus at the school and detained the men. No one was injured and nothing out of line occurred on the bus, deputies said.
Mana Saleh Almanajam, 23, who lives in Apt. 302 in The Point apartments, and Shaker Mohsen Alsidran, 20 Monticello Gardens, Apt. 304-A, each were charged with trespassing on school property. Both remained in Orient Road Jail on Friday evening. Bail for each was set at $250.
"Both defendants gave several versions of the reason they took a school bus to a high school," said Hillsborough County sheriff's spokesman J.D. Callaway.
"They said they wanted to go to Wharton to look around, and then they said they wanted to go there to have some fun, and then they said they wanted to enroll in the English classes there," Callaway said.
"We're not sure if this was a situation of them just being new to this country, or if they were confused or what it was," Callaway said. "We were unsure as to exactly what the final reason was, but it did cause great concern for the students on the bus and for us. One of the guys was wearing shorts with a black trench coat."
While on the bus, the men laughed and spoke in Arabic, Callaway said.
Ahmed Bedier, Tampa director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said the men likely meant no harm and that because "they were from Saudi Arabia, that escalated the situation."
He blamed the incident on cultural differences.
"They didn't differentiate between a school bus and public transportation," he said.
The bus picked up the students and the men at about 7 a.m. Friday at the corner of Fletcher Avenue and 42nd Street, deputies said.
The bus driver, a substitute, reached her supervisors by telephone. They relayed the information to Wharton High resource Deputy Mike Eastman, who met the bus when it arrived at school at about 7:30 a.m., and detained the men.
The sheriff's Homeland Security Division, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Regional Domestic Security Task Force, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the FBI all were notified.
Almanajam and Alsidran at first told deputies they were from Morocco, but later admitted being from Saudi Arabia, deputies said. They said they were enrolled at the English Language Institute at the University of South Florida.
Both arrived in the United States about six months ago and have student visas that require them to be enrolled at the English Language Institute, Callaway said.
Authorities searched the apartments of the two men and found nothing of concern, he said.
From: http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Document.aspx?ID=717
I guess this one Moslem student constitutes a majority? Who knew.
P.S. How would billybob the former Angeleno explain this one?
Is that what he had in mind when he said “at least people hear respect and love our wonderful county”? Indeed billybob, indeed.
>>>Dear Gramfan-
As for your
"Jews.. strive to fit in and don't make a fuss"
I was under the impression that I don't HAVE to STRIVE to fit in and I'm ALLOWED to make a fuss.
I don't need you 'dispensing' your freedoms to me as you see fit.
This Muslim must be yet another misunderstander of her religion of pieces. They claim that Jesus is a prophet, so why would this little runny nosed punk be offended?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm
Seems the link didn't come through. Hope this works.
D C Watson: good point!!
The Saudis riding the bus looks like a dry run to me....another Beslan in the making. I hope someone is watching this at Homeland Security...and nobody is releasing them on bail...or letting the Saudi Government order them released to them.
Gramfan-
I AM Jewish and you and others are annoying the HELL out of me by deciding that I 'don't sound Jewish' and you 'seem to know what Jewish people are like and what they 'should say' and deciding that I am not Jewish.
You have probably projected anti-Christian feelings on me which I really do not have.
You hear what you want to hear. You say
"Saying Jesus Christ..." humiliating to someone who doesn't believe? Oh come now,,,, annoying maybe,,humiliating, gimme a break! I am not a Christian but have never been humiliated by this.
what I said, speaking on my behalf - i.e. 'praying together' which by its nature includes me, is thus.
Frankly, I have read and loved intelligent Christian theology and one of my spiritual heroes is Jacques Ellul, a REAL friend of Jews, and one of the first, in France to sound the alarm about Islam. A long time ago.
Pravoslavni
Absolutely. The Muslima's intentions are so transparent that they should give anyone a pause.
Yet Muslims are day by day gaining ground in the U.S. as "minority victims" of the dominant culture. They are becoming the preferred face of American multiculturalism.
There's a nauseating environmentalist ad on my PBS station, featuring a high school class and their biology teacher trekking in the woods. The one student with a face and a voice is a Muslima wearing a hijab (and roled-up shirt sleeves and pants) talking, ironically, about exploring the real world, and the teacher looking adoringly at her.
The rest of the students are stage props for a multicult message. They seem to be white. You can't see their faces clearly as they trek, only their feet and boots, it's all a blur, as if being white and native were bad, a stigma that didn't qualify them for a voice.
Poetcomic1,,,,
groan!!!!
We are theorising that perhaps you are "not" Jewish, and now you are choosing to be annoyed.
You didn't even concede what I said about the Torah, and any Jew knows that what I said is true.
I know more than you think I know about being Jewish! My extended family covers Orthodox Jews, liberal Jews, Catholics,agnostics, atheists,,, right through to Charismatic Christians and some not-so-charismatic!! (not to mention Holocaust survivors).
This site is not about "Anti-Christian". It is about anti-islam for pete's sake!
We all hear what we want to hear - what else is new?
Please let me know next time someone "makes you" pray!! I am assuming you live in a democracy??
If so,,,do what you like! You have that right.
But when, and if, your country becomes islamified, and you lose that right,please remember the posts here that tried to explain to you what is at risk.
I think your anger is misguided and your "logic" influenced by the fact you are annoyed, and perhaps some other baggage?
This isn't just about religion: it is also about politics and survival.
I said and I will say. In a public high school to get up and pray ON BEHALF OF THE ASSEMBLED GROUP'in the name of Jesus Christ Our Lord' is wrong. To make small children 'act out praying like Moslems in order to learn about other cultures blah blah blah' is grotesquely wrong (this has happened in more than one instance)
For a true Christian to even 'enact' praying to Allah is spiritually nauseating. Wouldn't you agree? And before you jump the gun, I am not equating one with the other.
I'm only asking you to empathize a little. I have a brother who is very liberal, writes for a newspaper and I am trying to interest in this site. I have second thoughts. The original article 'peeved' at a Moslem complaining about sectarian prayer in a public high school bothers me - and I have written so. It is not a particularly good example of dhimmitude. At least not for an intelligent person.
Concentrate on what matters.
Hmmm...Ronin, I can't imagine coming to America JUST to learn English. Sounds fishy to me. And they couldn't tell the difference in public transportation or school buses after six months in the U.S. Sounds VERY fishy to me.
>>>>Concentrate on what matters.
Concentrate on what matters. Agreed
Most will opt not to indoctrinate them at religious schools because then they will be wasting their money on their children acquiring useless knowledge and skills related to religious dogma.
Posted by Todd
Sorry to rain on your parade Todd – but in Australia they DO have a choice – and guess what – independent schools (many Christian/Catholic Church schools) are growing at a rate of knots. Why? Well even atheistic parents can see that chaos now reigns in state schools. Why? Well whose morals can you teach without now offending someone? No morals = chaos. Not the best learning environment. Church schools can teach right and wrong, and have a discipline policy according to their beliefs (even Muslim schools can do this).
How can you tell a teenage kid in a State school that they are morally wrong on something? (even stealing/ doing drugs). After all – there is no god – truth is relative – and to him/her, well he/she is the truth – so who are you to tell them what to do? I work in the industry – I know how fast these independent schools are growing, and how many atheistic parents are opting to send their kids there (thankfully many Muslim schools are struggling to get in infidel students to swell their ranks – let alone quality teachers).
If we have no god in society, then some other god will come in and fill the void, whether it is ourselves as god; or Allah. Personally I prefer our heritage – the God of the Bible, Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Fact is if we didn’t allow them in, in the first place it would all be moot. Now they are in – I have to agree – have NO PRAYER at all in a STATE school. Including the giving of prayer rooms to them for the five times a day prayer – and remove all non testable, non observable science from the classroom.
poetcomic1 - if I were in Israel I would not be offended by Jewish prayers.
Its a fact (as much as the avid anti-Christian types hate it) - the USA was once a Christian country - its part of its heritage. Today however it is atheist/agnostic (like many western countries - and no longer knows up from down); quickly becoming an Islamic country (something will fill the void I guess). I hope we have our piggy banks ready for our Dhimmi status (NOTE: a piggy bank helps stop Islamic theives)
3rdtimelucky:
So your telling me Israel=Jewish and USA=Christian, "Love it or lump it!"
I am a Jew, I am an American and I am not any less an American than you. Enough of my family have fought, were wounded and died for this country that I don't need you to 'qualify' their Americanness. The hell with you.
The Christianity of our founding fathers was deeply imbued with 'Enlightenment' values and this is long, long before 'the Sinners Prayer, the Rapture and other Scofield Reference Bible inventions and apocalyptic titilations and smarmy lying swilling televangelists that are what is called 'Christianity' now.
Christianity to my eyes is intrinsically and wonderfully radical. The individual human soul, loved of God, is the heart of both true Christianity and Judaism. To love and choose God in freedom. THIS is what Islam hates.
3rdtimelucky, you're brave quoting folk from the old testament. I was raised a christian but am now agostic. Having spent a long time studying the bible i sometimes wonder if the old and new testaments should be together at all they are so different. I would never quote the old testament as it contains some of the worst stories i have ever read in my life.
Regarding morality, i strongly respect the moral teachings of Jesus the man, I'm just not sure he was the son of god.
There are many writings on morality out there by Objectivists, Libertarians, Skeptics, Humanists, Secularists for example, they just don't get much airplay. Skeptic Michael Shermer recently wrote "why we are moral" from an evolutionary perspective, I'd recommend it.
Regarding education, get the government out of the way and let parents and educators deliver the education they want to provide to their children.
Bother, bother, bother!
Guys, no need to debate ancient texts here.
There is good and bad in both old and new testaments.
The main point here is that Judeo-Christian ideals have evolved and I think we use the best of both of them.Buddhism also has a lot to offer us. We are human beings.We make mistakes and hopefully we learn - an ongoing process through one's life - I hope!
My main "thing" is preserving the western culture.And I know we have had dark moments in our history.
Unity is the only way we can do this. We have a common enemy and personally I am afraid they are winning.
Have a look at some of Fjordman's posts. Scary stuff.I think Europe is gone already. It is time to save the US before it is too late.
I can't think of anything worse than the islamification of the world. These people do not respect human life whatever. They have but one solution for everything - kill it before it annoys you!
Any Deity out there -please help!
The only prayer I will ever say is:
"God, protect me from your followers!"
If a Muslim were to give the invocation, I would expect a prayer to Allah. A Christian--to Christ. An Atheist--to the great Nothing. If I found it offensive, I would keep quiet. My religion doesn't coerce people to be quiet about theirs. Truth is never found in silence.
Having spent a long time studying the bible i sometimes wonder if the old and new testaments should be together at all they are so different. I would never quote the old testament as it contains some of the worst stories i have ever read in my life.
~ posted above
I guess you never read the Qur’an or the hadith, maybe those “long" Bible studies never gave you the time.
The Old Testament holds the ten commandments, apparently that was missed in your “long time” studying the Bible along with the New Testament book of Romans, where Paul clearly explains how the Old Testament does what it was designed to do. Jesus also quotes from the Old Testament, so if it was not a problem for Him, why would it be for his followers?
The ironic part of this is, the book you claimed to have studied, proves you have not.
Posted by ovidius_naso: Yet Muslims are day by day gaining ground in the U.S. as "minority victims" of the dominant culture. They are becoming the preferred face of American multiculturalism.
Same problem here in the UK - Muslims are the preferred people.
Bar-
I think leelion was referring to Deuteronomy, etc., where Yaweh sounds more like Heinrich Himmler than a voice from Heaven.
Luckily Jesus transmuted this into another level of awareness and behavior entirely.
The OT is like a swamp that you can build above, but not live in. There may be many things, like the Proverbs and Micah, etc., that are useful, but the earliest texts are a mirror image of the modern Mohammedanism's intolerance and genocide and are thankfully no longer the rule of any land.
What I would like to know is: when are some of you gonna stop using the term "Judeo-Christian"? Why don't you just SAY what you mean. SAY "Christian" and have done with it! It's okay. Really.
I *know* that, when you find out I am Jewish, your opinion changes. I *know* I am an outsider; I accept it as a part of my life I can do next to nothing about.
I learnt long ago: I don't take off on Jewish holidays, and have made DARN sure no Yiddish expressions or words are in my everyday speech. It can, and has, cost promotions, even a job after I was "outed". It even initiated a recheck of a security clearance because my oh-so-proper and oh-so-"good Christian" division chief believed my Judaism meant I had dual loyalty. I don'). )This oh-so-pious and tolerant fellow dug through my service record to find out).
Get it out in the open and say what you mean.
Profitsbeard-
I know exactly what was being referred to, this person made a claim that they studied the Bible a “longtime”, and I was undressing that claim.
The Old testament holds the law, now God would be considered unjust if He laid down this law and then failed to uphold it, so what you consider a Nazi, I consider justice.
Is it harsh, very much so, but they are not and never were intended to be enforced upon non-believers. In other words, Islam has open invitations for Moslems to kill those who believe otherwise. See Islamic laws apply to everyone, which the OT only applied to Jews, thats Big difference. Jesus also says he came to fulfill the law not destroy it, which means the Love and Tolerance Jesus taught, must also reside in the OT.
The Friendly Grizzly -
As a Christian it has never made sense to me how other Christians seem justified in treating Jews as non-neighbors. I guess “love your neighbor as yourself” has its limits for some.
The Friendly Grizzly:
I use the term "Judeo-Christian" because there would be no "Christian" without the "Judeo"!!
I am speaking for myself here.
Sounds to me like your boss isn't much of a Christian.
I think being anti-semitic is being anti-Jesus as Jesus was a Jew. He was never a Christian. Historical fact!
He was re-teaching what he had learned as an orthodox rabbi, making it more appealing and understandable to his contemporaries.
As for me, going on primary sources, many biblical stories cannot be proved beyond a doubt.
Therefore it is simply a matter of faith for many. Either you have it or you don't.
However the philosphies that have evolved from both Old and New testaments are generally good philophies.
Then again, Native Americans who call the Allmighty The Creator, also have some good philosophies, as do many other cultures.
Jesus was a Jew
And Martin Luther was a Catholic. With that logic, being anti-Martin Luther is to be anti-Catholic?
Of course Jesus was born and lived as a Jew. He couldn't very well have been born an Anglican or a Mormom. LOL. So that observation always leaves me scratching my head. But as a 'Jew' He preached some very un-Jewish ideas, especially the one were He claims to be the Messiah. Most Jews didn't take too kindly to that. Especially the Jewish priests. Most still don't.
somethingaboutislam:
Martin Luther attacked the Catholic church knowingly and broke away to create another "sect" so I am not convinced by your logic.
Jesus didn't exactly do that.
What people call early Christians were really Jews.
There are catacombs in Rome that were in fact NOT early Christian burial grounds as we have been told, but in fact Jewish burial grounds. I have been there, it was all well-explained by a priest! The Romans burned their dead. Jews did not.
(However, some rabbinical thing had to be done regarding those souls who burned in Aushwitz).
History is fascinating!
Not that this has anything to do with the topic at hand, but I like debating this point.
Christ preached to the Jews how they were to conduct themselves, and what principles to uphold, even if they went against Jewish law. That got him into trouble. The Sermon on the Mount was his manifesto.
Martin Luther did the same. He preached to the Church how it was to conduct itself and what principles to uphold. This got him also into a lot of trouble. The nailing of the 95 theses to the church doors was his manifesto.
People who followed Luther's ways became Lutherans. People who followed Christ's ways became Christians. So I do not believe that it is intellectually honest for Jesus to be considered a Jew anymore than it would be fair to consider Martin Luther a Catholic.
somethingaboutislam
>>>>So I do not believe that it is intellectually honest for Jesus to be considered a Jew anymore than it would be fair to consider Martin Luther a Catholic.
Born in a Christian country, enjoyed the benefits of a Christian country, educated in a Christian country. What would happen if I moved to an islamic country and said I was offended by islamic prayers in at a university? I'd be killed.
What a ridiculous state of affairs that we allow this to happen. Theirs' is a religion based on conquering other nations - against their will in almost all cases - they chip away at cultures that work in order to turn them into dictatorships. They wish to have "their" law imposed on us and will use our fairness and open mindedness against us, in order to destroy that fairness and open mindedness. Simple answer, if you don't want to have Christian prayers at a University DON'T GO TO UNIVERSITY. This story makes me sick, I'm not American but I see this regularly in the UK. They smugly attempt to destroy our way of life by telling us we are trying to destroy theirs. Given the choice they would not treat us with anything other than disdain at the very least. They live in countries and celebrate terrorist attacks against those countries and we do nothing. We do not say to them "Leave if you don't like it", we don't arrest them when they celebrate murder in the streets. We allow them to tell us that we are the problem, and our governments bend over backwards to help them, rather than tell them they are wrong. Our governments and public institutions have turned into cowards in an attempt to spare themselves the dreaded label of "racist" or "islamophobe". These institutions need to realise that when they are the minority their voices will be silenced with the sword. They will not be spared because they "helped out". The rights we allow the invader to exercise will not be extended to us. When we use "fair play" we are seen as weak, to be exploited at every turn. Read the koran, it says it quite clearly in there.
When Muslims start pushing for their Muslim prayers -- or whatever to be recited in schools, be made a part of the curiccula, put in posters WHATEVER. Remember what she did and do it yourself.
I'm pissed off as hell that one f*cking student can prevent a prayer from being uttered. However I know that the day is coming when their numbers are high enough, when they have the right amount of Muslims in just the right places they will be emboldened to make their moves. They will try to push their stinking, religion on us ever so subtley. You better be thankful there is a law on the books that can prevent it. And she just set the precedent! No, no thanking Allah at graduation! No Muslim culture week without Jewish culture week or Zorastrian(sp?) culture week.
As long as they can prevent one Christian prayer, you, if you are so inclined and feeling moved enough to get off your ass because they ARE motivated and NOT sitting in front of a TV watching some mind dulling crap or wasting away with a bag of chips and a video game! You can too..
Gramfan..." I happen to know that the Torah tells Jews they should blend in as much as they can in a foreign community"
Total bullshit frankly. No, the Torah doesn't command Jews to "fit in." We are to follow the laws of the land....PERIOD! We are a "nation apart," not a nation of silly putty to assimilate and change into what ever the new society is.
"I learnt long ago: I don't take off on Jewish holidays, and have made DARN sure no Yiddish expressions or words are in my everyday speech. It can, and has, cost promotions, even a job after I was "outed".
Oh, you mean you are culturally Jewish then because a practicing/observant Jew takes off all the Jewish festival/rememberance days. Besides, what Christian knows all Jewish festival days.. Shemini Atzeret, Tish'a Bav, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur et al? You call yourself "outed?" Being Jewish cost you promotions? Then you have a lawsuit. The ACLU will be more than happy to assist you...
I wonder if the muslims would be so kind as
to allow us (christians) to complain and take the muslim mullahs to court in saudi arabia..
For offending the entire world..
Killing of christians is an offense
Killing of buddhists ia an offense
Raping of muslims in sudan is offeensive to me
The Koran is an insult to me..
Islam is an offense to anyone who wants to stay free..
So far i doubt that the muslims would allow us the same freedoms that they ABUSE here in the USA
http://americawakes.blogspot.com
Kemaste:
"Gramfan..." I happen to know that the Torah tells Jews they should blend in as much as they can in a foreign community"
Total bullshit frankly. No, the Torah doesn't command Jews to "fit in." We are to follow the laws of the land....PERIOD! We are a "nation apart," not a nation of silly putty to assimilate and change into what ever the new society is. "
And the difference is what? Pure sematics! Choice of words - that'a all.
Not total bullshit - word play!!
"blend in,,follow the laws,,,,, that is what I meant - the same to me in essence.
No one said anything about "silly putty".
Do as you wish within the law in a democracy.
I grew up in an area with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and just about everybody else. There's no way in hell they would have had a prayer -- let alone a specifically Christian one -- at my school's graduation. This is not an Islam vs. Christianity issue. The plaintiff in this suit could have been a Jew, a Sikh, an atheist, whatever. I think this article was a poor choice for this website.
The original article is wrong. Arshiya does not attend Russell County High School nor has the ACLU filed suit on her behalf. She attends Shelby County High School and she, along with several other non-Muslim students, have objected to the school-sponsored prayer as it violates the laws of our country. Unlike most people who have taken offense at Arshiya's insistence that the law be followed, Arsh actually understands the difference between "school-sponsored" and "student-initiated" speech. Shelby County has always had a school-sponsored graduation prayer and this is what Arshiya and the other students were objecting to. Arshiya has no doubt some students will stand for prayer during the graduation and she's glad that her peers are finally using some of their Constitutional rights instead of being apathetic.
Arshiya may be a Muslim, but she's uniquely an American-Muslim; our whole family is. She would stand up for the rights of her Christian and Jewish friends if they stood against a Muslim majority, just as she stands now with her non-Muslim friends. But if, as you all claim, the USA is becoming a Muslim country, my family is moving out. Our family has never lived in a Muslim country and we have no desire to ever do so. Arshiya is an American, get over it.
Empress, Does Arshiya find it offensive to say the pledge of allegiance? Does she consider herself a muslim first and an american second?
As a person of Catholic background who is not a devout religious person I must suport the students in this issue.I am the father of a 15 year old that attends Shelbyville High School here in Kentucky. I would wish that she could grow up with the same values that people had back in the 60"s. I am sick and tired of all these people in this country trying to change what has worked for over 150 years. Why is it that greed and lack of values is the norm for today. People I know it is hard to have a backbone these days, but it is time to rise up in this country and tell the ACLU and most of the congress how the hell it"s going to be. Where is the Government OF the people and FOR the people.Stop the loss of good ol" American Values, and God is a part of that!
I'm sure Arshiya has no problem standing for the pledge of allegiance. However I don't think kids do that anymore. When I was a kid, I stood for the allegiance proudly and I still would. Arshiya would do the same but I'm not entirely sure she had the opportunity to recite the pledge every morning like I did.
Paul, didn't the people in the 60s fight for what they believed in? Didn't they stand for or against issues because that is the American way? How is this any different? Arshiya believes that the school should not sponsor a prayer because it goes against Supreme Court rulings. There is no doubt someone will pray at graduation, but this will not be school-sanctioned. This will be students asserting their right of freedom of speech. Finally, our teens are taking a stand and not being the apathetic, spoiled kids they are so often accused of being. If everyone could take a minute to understand the difference between school-sponsored speech and student initiated speech this whole issue would be moot.
empress, you really didn't answer my question. You should, if not already, work for cair.
nyone-- I'm sorry I missed your second question, but I'm not sure it's answerable. My friends (who are mostly Christian) and I have discussed this. Which comes first, God or country? We've come to the conclusion that deciding whether you're *insert brand of religion here* first or American first is like trying to decide if you're a woman first or an American first. One cannot take priority over another because it's impossible. You are who you are.
I asked Arshiya about the pledge of allegiance, apparently they say it everyone Monday morning over the PA system. She stands for it every time even though her teacher laughs at her for doing so since there is no one else in the class.
Thanks for the job suggestion but I have no desire to work for CAIR. I've grown up in Shelbyville, KY, I wouldn't know what to do around a large group of Muslims everyday.
Sofia-- the Shelby County graduation has not yet been held. The ceremony you probably saw was Russell County High School which is far, far away from Shelby County. There is no doubt there will be a prayer at SCHS's graduation ceremony, but as Arshiya and others wanted, it will not be a school-sponsored one. It will be students exercising their freedom of speech. There will be no nose-snubbery involved as Arshiya has tried over and over again during her years at SCHS to get her classmates to stand up for what they believe in, to sign petitions, to vote, but the response was disappointing. Now her peers are finally standing up and she's pretty excited about it.