I have long noted that democracy in the Islamic world will always be under pressure, including violent pressure, from adherents of Sharia. "Attack on judges targets Turkey's secular system: president," from TurkishPress.com, with thanks to Planet Poe:
ANKARA - Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer said Wednesday that a deadly attack on judges at Turkey's top adminsitrative court aimed at undermining this Muslim-majority country's secular regime."When you look at the attack, you see that it is not caused by personal animosity but ... targets the Republic and particularly its unchangeable principles of democracy and secularism," said Sezer, a staunch secularist and a former senior judge.
"It is impossible to reverse the advances of the Republic," he told reporters in a rare public remark. "All our institutions will forever defend the principles of the Republic. No one should doubt that."...
A senior judge was killed and four others wounded when a man shouting "I am a soldier of Allah" stormed into the court and sprayed bullets on judges who were in the middle of a legal session, officials said.
Court members described the attack as retaliation for rulings confirming a ban on Islamic headscarves in public insititutions and universities in Turkey.
The attack raised tensions as the Islamist-rooted government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, which is critical of the headscarf ban and court rulings upholding it, faced accusations of failing to defend the republic's secular principles.
O.T.
More trouble in Thailand:
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.299638290&par=0
I find it peculiar that secularism is a salve against islamic dominance in Turkey, but secularism is blamed by may traditionalists in the West as being the cause of our supposed downward cultural spiral. And further, the spiritual vaccum which secularism creates in the West is most likely to be filled by islam.
So, secularism is good when applied to predominantly islamic societies. But secularism results in abortion, drug abuse, divorce, islam and other mayhem when implemented in western societies.
What's the proper level of secularism in society?
How do we maintain a balance between religious freedom and not placing our necks into an islamic noose? Or how much exclusion of religion from the public sphere?
Hy, you ask a question which is only partially related to Jihad Watch. We are all individuals. Some at Jihad Watch are Christian, some Jewish and some Hindu. Some are quite religious, some secular, some gay, some straight, some in rural areas, some in urban. Isn't this a parable for the West and open spaces and freedom and democracy . . . that shining city on a hill.
Your question reminds me of the documentary on New York by Burns in which he shows how different religions, cultures built the worlds greatest city. How divergent forces combined to build this shining city. Here, I think you miss the point, for some in the US are secular and some are staunch traditionalists, but we don't(with few exceptions)kill or behead one another. Some will talk of disgust with the secular state . . . and then rush hom to watch HBO Real Sex 14. We are individuals allowed to express our love of freedom, secularism or conservatism as we see fit, so long as we don't kill one another.
With the artificial example of Turkey, the secular impulse is stiffled and destroyed with Islam. Turkey is a parital, and fading exception because of the force of Kemal and his straight arm against Islam, but the deaths within Turkey show how fragile it all is. This saddens me.
Here lies the point. Secular Turkey is under assault and is fading. No one can deny this. If 25 % are secular, the young increasingly are not. Politics is shifting to the 'green right.' Can the military be far behind? This is not a thing to be happy about; it is a thing to sadden us. For if secular Turkey and secular impulses in Egypt and Iraq and Iran were on the rise, Jihad Watch wouldn't need to exist, for we would all be proven wrong. W's ideas and ideals would be proven right. Clearly, this is not the world we live in.
It is impossible to reverse the advances of the Republic," Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer told reporters in a rare public remark. "All our institutions will forever defend the principles of the Republic. No one should doubt that.
I do, Mr. Prez. And I should. Cuz by far and away the predominant institution in this horribly corrupt and unproductive nation is Islam. And here’s why:
1) Do your subjects recite from Turkey’s governmental text five times a day?
2) Do your subjects spends hours in a mosque animatedly discussing Turkey’s governmental text?
3) What chance does the Turkish government have of conquering the world?
MO TURKIC GUT-FLAB TURKIC MOUTH-BLAB TURKIC MO DRIB-N-DRAB MO TURKIC
So please, I implore you, shut the hell up. If you keep flapping your Turkic jaws, you’ll fall victim to the 6th Pillar of Islam just like the judges. Silence, please, Moslem activists at work!
I find it peculiar that secularism is a salve against islamic dominance in Turkey, but secularism is blamed by may traditionalists in the West as being the cause of our supposed downward cultural spiral.
This statement implicitly accepts the Fictive Reality that Islam is a religion.
And further, the spiritual vaccum which secularism creates in the West is most likely to be filled by islam.
I agree wholeheartedly, with one small nit: Islam will replace spirituality not with bad spirituality (if such a thing can even exist); Islam will replace spirituality with animalism.
MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO MO
And everybody seems to forget that East Asia by and large a secular place, except for the regions overrun by the ever-aggressive Mohammedans.
Hyman Roth:
I am not particularly religious.I have little time for organised religion but I do believe in morality and integrity and most of this is based in the 10 Commandments.
I think the answer is simple.
Biorabbi gave an interesting answer also.
We can be secular/religious whatever. There is no correct formula for which part should be more important.
The big difference is that we are allowed to THINK and say what we like without being killed for it,,,,well at least for now.
Islamic countries don't have this freedom and islam doesn't allow for free thought,,other than for the people who have left it,,risked their lives in doing so.
We may not know all the answers but we have the right to discuss it with our friends, watch tv, read books and take in new information. That is what I like about secularism. What people do regarding worship etc etc is personal and as far as I aam concerned,,their own business.
I am not particularly religious.I have little time for organised religion but I do believe in morality and integrity and most of this is based in the 10 Commandments.
100% me Gramfan.
There are about 52 Moslem majority countries. Each of these countries will go fundamentalist in our life time Turkey included. Most will be intimidated by a few steadfast murders who will massacre the innocent into submission, as we see daily in Iraq. The good news is that when the great war comes Western countries will be defending/ fighting nation states. This will remove much ambiguity about the Crusader war against Islam (sarcasm on).
Turkey has had a cancer for a long time, which is now spreading in different directions. Nearly 90 years ago, several million Armenian and Assyrian Christians were murdered by Muslim Turks, sanctioned by that government. As is well known, Hitler held Turkey in great esteem for their actions. Despite the turn to "secular Turkey" the government has fought hard over the years to deny their responsibility for genocide. The "secular" government of Turkey then invaded Cyprus and proceeded to destroy many symbols of Christianity, churches, monasteries, on the land that they occupied. And, as full of Islamic cancer as it is today, Turkey will still be able to challenge Europe for a long time to come.
Hyman,
Christianity respects Free Will, in other words, it allows you to reject Christianity and not believe in God. It’s my strong opinion that is not a good thing; however you have that basic human right. Christianity cannot be forced upon you. In the past that has not always happened and it really is sad, however it’s not a tenet of the faith to force conversions.
Obviously in islam no room for Free Will exists. You have no basic human right to reject islam.
In terms of the level of secularism, I think it comes down to respect. I respect other people’s beliefs or lack of them. I hope and pray that secularist have a conversion of heart, but I wouldn’t force my views upon them. In cases where the secular movement attacks Christianity and forces their view on me (i.e. the current pictures at the University of Oregon newspaper and The Da Vinci Code), then I am obligated to stand up for my beliefs non-violently.
In terms of extremist, I guess some would consider me an extremist for being strongly opposed to abortion. However I wouldn’t kill another over those views. In a way, people who support abortion will kill or support killing for their beliefs, so they would be more the “extremist”.
You can download a videoclip of the tattooed, scantily clad Sibel Tuzun singing 'Superstar' which is Turkey's entry in Saturday's Eurovision Song Contest.
http://www.sibeltuzun.com/
- representing a country in which there are hundreds of honour killings every year. What a schizophrenic place!
Is this the same Turkish president who is himself a "Moderate Islamist"?
And whose wife ostentatiously wears the proscribed headscarf?
And who was just booed when he arrived at a secularist rally, protesting against this kind of Islamic violence, by his own citizens who know his rank hypocrisy on the subject?
This sounds like something the Turkish tourism board asked him to say, quick, so all of this summer's European visiters' euros don't go elsewhere.
VIZ-
"visitors" .
(I can spell, but it is a bit harder with a fat grey cat on your lap looking for attention).
I wouldn't put it past Erdogan that he had something to do with this attack.
He is after all a convicted Islamist, in fact he did jail time for his anti-government, anti-secular activities. But he was nevertheless elected...
Just to show you which way Turkey is heading....