What's so wrong with encouraging immigrants to speak English and understand liberal values?

Assalamau-laikum all,

Why just use only English (which is such a limiting langauge anyway, 26 letters limited vowel capability...etc).

We need a superior language to capture the full essence of what we will all be getting into....
.i.e. Islam.

English cannot capture the way certain words are said in Urdu and Arabic...so your childrens must learn these languages...listen to the Koran...can you possibly write this superior holy language in English?

Ofcourse not....a much superior language other then the white colonist language is required for the future....Arabic and Urdu...(Assa hi hona chia....this is how it must be).

Allah Hafiz

All prospective immigrants should be obligated, BEFORE even getting a sniff of being considered for entry, to pass a citizenship exam. This would include verbal and written proficiency with the language and values of the country they are looking to settle in. Governments the host country should cease translating all documents into other languages and paying for translators and all transactions to be undertaken in the host language. Unless there is incentive people won't change.

Is this a barrier to immigration? No, it's a commitment.

Without commitment NO ENTRY.

Ameer Ali said he had no problem with universal values

What might they be?

My thinking is, that, if the host country is much better than the hellhole they left, they should learn English, assimilate and learn our culture. No one want's them to stop eating burrito's for Sunday lunch. We just want people to get with the program, insurance on their vehicles, learn our language (it is after all, OUR country), realize you don't need guns at baby showers, no eating our dogs, no living 20 people to a house, no changing our National Anthem, and no trying to fit us into their customs. And they must be loyal to OUR country instead of their old or their religion.

There needs to be a halt to immigration from mid east countries. They aren't persecuted and they completely refuse to assimilate. They have no business here.

Naseem, I'm sure you sound like your gargling while talking. No thanks.

Naseem, since you're so keen on Arabic and Urdu as opposed to English, why don't you do your fellow Muslims a huge favor and translate the complete works of William Shakespeare, thereby proving the superiority of the Arabic or Urdu version and providing the ultimate theatrical fusion experience?

English cannot capture the way certain words are said in Urdu and Arabic..

Well obviously not, otherwise it wouldn't be English.

Urdu has nothing to do with Islam anyway.

limited vowel capability..

As Eliza Doolittle might say: aaaaooooowwww!

All these issues are being brought up lately - multiculturalism, responsibilities of immigrants, values, racism, national security, etc., because of ... Islam. No other group has caused such problems. We don't need to agonise over these things for other groups. Just for Muslims. Every time there's some live TV forum on these issues, half the show gets hijacked by the Islam vs. West thing. And it's always the typical Muslim thing where they do not accept one iota of responsibility and instead point fingers at us.

Clearly, the problem is that ... Islam is the problem. Whether we've lost our way and forgotten our values or not, it all comes down to a beligerent, incompatible group that does not fit, will not fit. Ever. And that will cause problems no matter what.

You can have them stand on one foot, touch their nose and recite Banjo Paterson's Clancy of the Overflow til they're blue in the face, they won't fit. It's what they're born into and indoctrinated with day in and day out, at home, in their mosques, in their schools. That teaches them that we are The Other. Infidels. Kafir. Najis. Muslims who speak the nicest English have said the vilest things. It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

Word is spreading:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3246565,00.html

2 female critics of Islam discuss need for reform

Canadian author, Dutch politician express their criticism of Islam, discuss need for reform of religion; ‘we Muslims have completely lost sight of balance between religion and reason,’ author says Associated Press

A Canadian author and a Dutch politician expressed their criticism of Islam and discussed the need for reform of the religion.

Writer Irshad Manji and Dutch Parliament member Ayaan Hirsi Ali, also an author who launched a book on Tuesday and wrote the movie that
provoked the murder of director Theo van Gogh by an Islamic radical, spoke before an audience at the 92nd Street Y in New York, a Jewish arts and culture center, about the reform of Islam.

“The way in which my religion has been practiced and promoted for the last several hundred years is such that codes of honor - very Arab and very primal - have become enmeshed in the practice of Islam so that even though this is not a problem from Islam it has become a problem for Islam,” Manji said.

But the author mixed serious discussion with humor, greeting the audience with “Salaam, shalom, and for the atheists out there, ‘How the hell are you?”’ Manji, currently a visiting fellow at Yale University and syndicated columnist for the New York Times, wrote “The Trouble With Islam Today,” a book critical of Islam.

The 37-year old, born in Uganda to parents of Indian and Egyptian descent who moved to Canada where she grew up, told the audience that a sense of humor was necessary to opening a dialogue and questioning Islam. When asked if the approach would work, her co-panelist Hirsi Ali answered in a somber tone, “Not until we draw cartoons of the prophet.”

A dissident of Islam

In her book “The Caged Virgin,” Hirsi Ali mentions the riotous reactions in many Muslim countries after a Danish newspaper published cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. She also cites the example of a Newsweek magazine report that a copy of the Quran was flushed down a toilet. Newsweek later retracted the report, which sparked riots in some Muslim countries that left dozens of people dead.

“We Muslims have completely lost sight of the balance between religion and reason,” Hirsi Ali writes in the new book.

The 36-year-old former refugee from Somalia, who fled an arranged marriage and ended up in the Netherlands where she would eventually be elected to parliament four years ago, says she is an atheist, but retains her past as a Muslim.

“I am a dissident of Islam - I share this history, I share the culture, I share the religion, my parents and everyone have stayed Muslims my whole life and I feel an obligation to share that which I believe now,” she said.

In addition to being close in age and two of the most outspoken critics of Islam, both women say they have needed to take security measures.

Hirsi Ali spent 2 1/2 months in hiding after Van Gogh’s murder in 2004 and said she recently had a neighbor force her to move by court order because of the danger she could bring as a terrorist target. Manji said she has also received numerous threats.

“You have bodyguards,” Manji said, turning to Hirsi Ali, “I have an excellent relationship with the Yale and the Toronto police.”

‘Protect freedom of expression’

Manji said she would go to Egypt in June for her foundation, Project Ijtihad, an organization designed to spur “A reform that enables the emerging generation of Muslims, especially young women, to challenge the authoritarianism of critical thinking.”

But the task is challenging, Manji said, as culture and religion have become intertwined throughout the history of the religion.

Both women agreed that the there is potential for dialogue and the eventual reform of Islam in the West.

“If both Europe and the U.S. both succeed in protecting freedom of expression ... Then that can happen,” Hirsi Ali said.

(05.03.06, 09:26)

"for her foundation, Project Ijtihad..."
-- from a posting above

Ah. Okay. That helps explain Manji, who is quite a different kettle of fish from Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina. Cherchez le fric.

Naseem, you nauseate me. I think I must puke.

OT. Not sure if anyone here has ever seen this blog..

http://www.dutchdisease.com/blog/

I'd visited it on occasion just to see what was happening in occupied Netherlands, but it seems to have gone offline. RoP seething perhaps? Who knows.

"Federation of Islamic Councils president and long-time Australian citizen Ameer Ali said he had no problem with universal values, 'but when you say Australian values, no one knows what those values are'."

Regarding Australian values, here's a clue for ya, Ameer: Footy, beer, beaches, and women (not necessarily in that order).

That helps explain Manji, who is quite a different kettle of fish from Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina.

As well as not being in the same league, she isn't in the same market. Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina are apostates. Manji is still, in her own eyes, a Muslim, although most Muslims would regard her as an apostate.

I don't believe she is in it for the money. If that were the case, she would be less controversial, more of a Fatima Mernissi. She is putting her life at risk, which people don't normally do just for the money.

That said, she hasn't a cat in hell's chance of making any difference to mainstream Muslim opinion, and could well end up being killed just as if she were an apostate.

Ben-Hur-

Good quotes. Thanks.

To Hirsi Ali over "the balance of reason and religion".

Religion is the sacred Irrational.

Internally, it need not answer to "reason". It is emotional comfort, not "logical".

Reason (being human 'oversight') only needs to balance away "too much of the Irrational in everyday life".

Since there is more than one brand of "true faith", the clashes, between the competing believers, would be murderously "eternal" if secular law didn't trump dogma on the street.

There's no need to try to artificially mix the two ideas.

There is no "balance of reason and religion".

Reason restrains Religion in public.

Reason is the balance.

Otherwise chicken slaughter, snake handling, polygamous nudists and adulteress-stoning would be happening in the parks today instead of kite-flying, kissing and picnics.

Divine unbalance gets messy.

Naseem,

What is wrong with English? English is the language of business, of mass communications, and of diplomacy. Also the best books and authors, such as William Shakespere are English. There are no limits to that language. Besides the more limiting languages are Arabic and Urdu. Just a few thoughts.

Interested,

If we start with the axiom that Islam is anti-life, anti-self actualization, intolerant, and just plain wrong from a spiritual and moral perspective, it follows that Muslim reformers can make a difference. Irshad Manji is clearly having an effect; just go to her website and read the comments she receives. She is the voice of a lot of young Muslims in the west who are disgusted with what is being done in the name of their religion, but do not know what to do about it. We know the religion condones the very things that appall these young Muslims, but at least they see a problem and are casting about for solutions.

Yes I couldn't agree more, immigrants should learn to speak the language of their host country and become productive members of society. There are sections of NYC where if you don't speak Spanish or Russian or Hungarian or Arabic or Hindi that you will have a hard time buying something other than a bottle of water. I walked into a store the other day that was selling a video about the Balkans and the Ottomans. I asked the woman behind the counter, how much is the video? The first thing she says to me nastily in her Eastern European accent, that video isn't English. I knew going into the store that it wasn’t in English but I still wanted to purchase it if the price was right. She lost a customer due to her arrogance, I hope that all people from Yugoslavia (sp?) aren't like that.

Yes Naseem you are correct Arabic is a very deep language that is very different from the romance languages. It's so deep that during the Medieval era when it was the lingua franca of the world, you had some Rabbis using it to write religious works because it gave them the means to express subtle ideas that they couldn't communicate in Hebrew or Latin.

So Naseem are you from India?

Anyone know if this is indeed correct as the immigration laws for mexico?.If true someone has his head in the right place.

1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the native language.

2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No unskilled workers
allowed.

3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special
ballots for elections, all government business will be conducted in our
language.

4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are
here.

5 Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.

6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food
stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to
40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

8. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options
will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront proper ty. That is
reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

9. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag,
no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies, if
you do you will be sent home.

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and
sent straight to jail.

bigcatgirl13106-

English isn't one language, it is the Absorbing Tongue.

Otherwise our calling someone a schmuck for his taste in shampoo or cut of demin would be banal.

Its the lingo of Wampum.

The fulcum of developing consciousness.

The lingua franca of the current human effort to wrestle the twisted angels of disease, madness and mortality into the dust.

Until something better comes along, it'll do.

But, it is so adaptive, technically/symbolically simple, and as functional as you could wish for (artistically/humorously/transpositionally), that I say good luck to the next meta-alphabet in outwitting it.

Naseem seems to have dropped off. Must be washing her beard.

Every country has a right and a responsibility to preserve its language and culture. The national language of Australia is English and immigrants to Australia should learn English, at least to the best of their ability.

The only exception to this official English should be for Aboriginal Australians who have a right to preserve their languages along with English. Immigrants to France should learn French and immigrants to Germany should learn German, etc. If they refuse to do this, then they should return to their countries of origin.

Unfortunately, it seems that it is primarily the Muslim immigrants who want to force the host countries to change to their culture. Perhaps, this is because most Muslims don't see themselves as immigrants but as invaders and occupiers of the lands of Dar al-Harb.

Arabic is a very deep language...

It's so deep you could express universal values in it.

I like shallow languages best.

Mock citzenship tests, with a nation-specific Cultural Literacy section, could be fun to compose.

Here, for ally Australia and once-and-future ally Canada, are fifteen such questions, just to get that ball rolling:

Australia:

1) who was Watkins Tench?
2) what does that phrase "Waltzing Matilda" mean?
3) write the first stanza of "Wild Colonial Boy"
4) what does the word "Tanunda" mean to you?
5) who are "We of the Never Never"?
6) sing the song from "Muriel's Wedding"
7) what is "spotlighting"?
8) why does Simon Leys live in Australia?
9) what are dream-lines?
10)how devilish are those Tasmanians?
11)where is the Murrumbidgee?
12)why did Bruce Beresford move to Hollywood after "Breaker Morant"?
13)what is the reason for Van Diemen's land?
14)why does Australia have some of the sweetest-named toponyms in the world, such as Pandora's Pass and Darling Downs?
15)how did the Australians perform in World Wars I, II, the Korean War, and in the counter-Jihad today (Hint: superbly)

Canada:

1) what does "Hochelaga" refer to?
2) what did Alexander Mackenzie do?
3) who was John Buchan?
4) where did the Confederation begin?
5) how did the "Acadians" get their name? (Hint: Poussin did not write "Et in Acadia ego" on that famous tomb)
6) where is Hudson's Bay, and why?
7) when did the MicMac Indians become the Mi'qmaq Indians, and why?
8) when was Margaret Atwood a graduate student at Harvard?
9) how did Prince-Arthur Street in Montreal get its name, and why is there that goshdarn dash between "Prince" and "Arthur"?
10)who was Hugh MacLean?
11)who was Pierre LeMoyne, Sieur d'Iberville?
12)what are nice Canadian boys doing buying and now selling to China oil companies in Kazakhstan?
13)who dismissed Canada as "quelques arpents de neige"?
14)what did Pierre see in Margaret (not Atwood)?
15)what's a poor Governor-General to do?

We could make immigration and naturalization contingent upon the immigrant's explicit condemnation of Islam.

Yeah, dream on...

JanuaryMan-

We can credit the Phoenicians if that'll cheer Naseem up.

Their early language sigils were sublime.

Turning the world on its head.

My test of Britishness for would be Muslim immigrants:

1 Do you consider this country to be:

A Land of hope and glory, mother of the free.

B An infidel cesspit, that must become part of the Dar al Islam, for Allah knows best.

2 If you answered A, are you indulging in taqiyya?

3 If you answered no, are you at it again?

Now, let's up the ante:

4 In the panel game Mornington Crescent, how do you extricate yourself from the Dollis Hill loop when two or more players are in knip?

5 Why do London taxi drivers never go South of the River?

6 How do you pronounce the following names?

Mainwaring
Cholmondesley
Launceston
Featherstonehaugh

7 Where do the best wine tasters come from? (If you say France, your application is delayed for another ten years.)

8 What price glory?

9 What is the point of cricket?

10 Has Prince Charles got big ears or what? (Careful, this is a trick question.)

That'll keep 'em out.

Interested --

I got them all but #8. That's a tough one.

Just read your post bigcatgirl13106, no nothing is wrong with English, yes you are correct it is the language of business today because the Sun never sits on the British Empire just like Spanish is the language to the south of our border and French is the language of business in most of North West Africa. Today in many parts of the Arabic speaking world English is fasionable because of the impact of African American popular culture not because Arab kids love America. A few years ago while doing some work in Germany I met an Egyptian teenager who could rap in English, German, French and Arabic all mixed together. American kids are having a hard time mastering English let alone another language which is the norm in Western Europe. My sister who lives in Holland speaks 3 languages, Dutch, English and French. My Dad spoke, Dutch, English and Spanish. My brother speaks English, Spanish and German. I on the other hand was indifferent and grew up with the mentality that English is the only language that I need to know. That was pretty stupid on my part but today I can read French fairly well and a little Italian and I've been working on Arabc too. I have friends who grew up here who speak Arabic today some of them are making 6 figures a year in Kuwait tax free enjoying a better quality of life than they did here. They send me emails telling me you can have anything you want here it's just like America or the UK.

What Price Glory?

None, but valor.

"I have friends who grew up here who speak Arabic today some of them are making 6 figures a year in Kuwait tax free enjoying a better quality of life than they did here. They send me emails telling me you can have anything you want here it's just like America or the UK."
-- from a posting above

The definition of "quality of life" here is not one everyone will share, for it is clearly defined strictly in terms of money -- high wages, and the availablility of stuff to buy. Ubi bene, ibi patria. Ifyou don't mind the laws, manners, customs and so on in Kuwait, if you can stomach the limits on women and non-Muslims, and if you are a native speaker of Arabic, then surely the Gulf sheikhdoms, and Saudi Arabia itself, are the places to be.

One further point about "learning English" and learning about "liberal[i.e. consonant with the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man or, in the alternative, Bill of Rights] values" -- wouldn't it be a good idea if native-born Americans were obligated to do the same?

Do Americans speak English then?

We try.

Watch out New Zealand and Australia, tsunami alert!!!!

The earthquake?

Ah, Arabic, the language most often misunderstood the world over. Used to read the koran and ...what else? One of the most difficult languages to learn, and like Chinese, not able to be written or read by a very large part of their language's speakers. Also apparently subject to interpretation in so many ways that it is interpreted differently than the writer intended, seemingly. Just look at all the misunderstanders and various interpretations over the centuries of the koran. So deep with nuance that you can be vague and lie without really lying. Convenient.

Languages are very interesting. English is the easiest to learn by immigrants. Though not always the easiest to speak for immigrants, but that goes both ways.

English has a piece of almost every language in it and though perhaps not nuanced as some it can be extremely clear for business purposes. And it changes over the years anyway, so any area that is not nuanced enough with current words tends to make an appropriate addition.

The only ones who disagree are muslims with their own agenda of wanting everyone to learn Arabic so that the koran can spread. Arabic speakers say their language cannot be translated. It's the only language in the world that cannot be translated, so maybe it needs to be discontinued.

Gosh Hugh, more homework...

After talking with a construction guy who worked in the middle east 25 years ago, six figure salaries are common and were even then. He hated it there so much he wouldn't have stayed a day without a salary like that.

Daddyphil - I'd imagine your friends enjoying the bounty of Kuwait either don't have many religious or political opinions, or are pretty good at keeping their mouths shut.

Assa hi hona chia - Naseem

Something about the rear end of a Chia Pet?

Its funny this topic was posted on the lonelyplanet travel site blog last week. You should of seen all the PC types complaining about it. I just mentioned that the article posted showed the government was concerned about radical imans that is the main reason for the drive to ensure english language sermons. Everyone talked around the issue. I mentioned that to curb Islam the law would do nothing. I find nothing wrong with the law it makes sense. But to fight Islam language laws will do nothing. This is typical of how western governments fight problems. Create problems for everyone else but the people causing the problems. Rigidly enforce language laws on every ethnic community including those who are a positive influence on the community and hope jihad goes away.

Here's an idea for Naseem and friends. Learn Russian and Chinese. Those countries seem to be so supportive of Arab/Muslim countries, in common opposition to the Great Satan in the West. Then try immigrating to those warm, friendly and multi-cultural countries. You can forget English and concentrate on teaching the Koran in Russian and Chinese. Later, after you have developed enclaves in the two countries, you can insist that they give up Russian and Chinese and just talk in Arabic. I am sure that they will be happy to comply and that you will all get along just fine. We'll miss you in the English speaking world, but we'll manage somehow.

Learn English be buggered. They should learn Strine, which is a much more advanced form of the English language. Stine is spoken with the mouth closed so you don't swallow bush flies.

I hope you read this Naseem...............

What country are you in, resting there like a black widow spider.
Your comments are smug, obscene and pewk-making.
The Arabic of the qur'an is so pure( I was informed in Saudi Arabia) that it cannot be translated in any other language.
I then picked up a copy of the qur'an, in English, from the local imam, who was hoping to find a nice little Western convert.
Do you notice the inconsistency in the above two paragraphs Naseem.........I doubt it!
Naseem, I think you have, and for all I know, still are, benefitting from the advantages of the West and you behave like something nasty under a rock, waiting to bite the first hand that turns the rock over.
You will be discovered,you will be produced for all the world to see what a misguided and overtly evil creature you are.
Gloat on your own time not on ours.

Firstly,

What's the problem Nasseem?
Any westerner going to the oil countries is made to fit in, especially Saudi Arabia. We have to fit in with local customs so why can't you? True, not many of us want to move there permanently,,as if we would even be allowed, or would even want to.
What about some mutual respect and reciprocity?

Oooooops - I forgot,,you guys don't do that! Silly me!
How many classics have been written in Arabic?

The other posters mentioned Shakespeare, but there are so many more.

Secondly I have yet to be convinced that Islam has anything to offer other cultures. All you seem to do is figure out new ways of killing people and destroying things.

Therefore I conclude Islam is not superior in any way.

Cut the crap mate,,,we Aussie 'strine speakers think you are a scumbag and a wowser! (party pooper in OZ!)

Why did you ever bother trying to learn English, naseem?