Ex-Mossad chief warns of Muslim European cities

I should imagine the situation will be true for some cities in the United Kingdom and France, too.

And the US, and Canada, and Holland, and Sweden, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

So far, the US is far from it. Dearbourne doesn't count as a major US city.

He could do by naming the cities he fears will turn Muslim. But I disagree with him on Russia = the trend there has been of Muslims becoming Christians. (A bigger problem would be Kazakhstan, where Muslims are 47% of the population, but either breeding, or Uzbeg immigration could send that number above 50%.)

If the ex-Mossad chief recognizes it, why does Israel have so much trouble comprehending that they are fighting a Jihad?

Russia has a 20 % Muslim population. Tatarstan a russian republic, has a 50 % muslim population. The beard and burka crowd are often to be seen in the streets of Kazan whose 80 or so new mosques have benefitted from generous Saudi subsidies.

We will see how the russians deal with the Iraqi diplomat kidnapping to see if they still have what it takes.

Stop paying their way through life. Immigration would slow down. Stop the polygamy. Families would be smaller.

Immigrants being given finacial support because they are poor is insane. Of course they are poor! Polygamy always leads to poverty or war.

This may be a little off topic...But shows just how wrong Arab justice can be...........King Pays Blood Money to Save Youth
Arab News

JEDDAH, 5 June 2006 — Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah has paid the relatives of a murdered man SR600,000 in compensation just eight days before the murderer was to be executed.

King Abdullah paid the money to the relatives of the dead Pakistani man, according to Khaled ibn Abdul Aziz Al-Tuwaijeri, president of the royal court.

The man who killed the Pakistani national, Abdullah ibn Ezzuddin Al-Ashouli, 23, will now be released. Al-Ashouli had alleged that the Pakistani man had raped him a number of times and it was on one such occasion that the murder took place, reported the Al-Riyadh newspaper yesterday.

The relatives of the dead man had originally demanded SR2 million in blood money, but tribal chiefs managed to lower the amount following intense negotiations. The victim’s family had also stipulated that the agreement would only be valid if the sum was paid on or before the 13th of the present month.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=83282&d=5&m=6&y=2006

So long as many of you deny yourselves the vast military and economic power of the United States, so long as you won't even consider availing yourselves of your vast power, then there won't be any "end in sight."

We have the ability to sweep the islamic issue off the table, and do so within several years.

And that's a fact.

The United States has generally done a wonderful job at integrating newcomers, which is why our Muslim population is relatively quiet. We tend to embrace diversity and anyone with talent and something to offer society can find his niche. The Dutch, Swedes, French, etc. may give lip service to multi-culturalism and pluralism, but they are socially stratified societies, much more tribal in a way than American society, and place many impediments in the path of an immigrant's integration.

I would like to see our government ban Saudi funding of Islamic institutions, and all Wahabi centers closed. But we all know this will not happen.

The Islamo-nazis are using our democratic, pluralistic institutions and liberal, tolerant beliefs to destroy our system.

We can boycott/starve 2.5 million Muslims out of the United States in 5 years or less if we put our collective minds and wallets to the test.

From a posting above:

"The United States has generally done a wonderful job at integrating newcomers, which is why our Muslim population is relatively quiet. We tend to embrace diversity and anyone with talent and something to offer society can find his niche. The Dutch, Swedes, French, etc. may give lip service to multi-culturalism and pluralism, but they are socially stratified societies, much more tribal in a way than American society, and place many impediments in the path of an immigrant's integration."

With respect, I dissent strongly. Might not it be the US hasn't reached critical mass? what is it 1-2 % of the population are Muslims; will the 'relative queit' continue at 4-5 or 10 %?

Also, the US is large--bigger than any country in Europe--so there is the point of diffusion--although this doesn't hold much weight given what's happening in Oh Canada!

Speaking of Canada, I would argue their population celebrates diversity much more than ours; a large minority are French speakers. There has been talk of two countries at one point. Embracing diversity, multiculturalism and pluralism, the success of minorities within Canadian life argue against your thesis.

To argue there is something intrinsically different among Muslim's who happen to live a few miles North of Detroit and those in Dearborn strains belief. Are the immans different? Are the mosques different? Does America do something to 'pacify' Islam; if that's the case, we don't have any worries, and the sojurns of the two Georgians, the Lodi youth, the New York sleeper cell, the conversion of the 'American Taliban,' radical Mosques near Chicago, the plot(s) spawned by the NYC Mosque(including WTC part 1), the recent college Jihad in North Carolina, and, perhaps most telling, the radicalization of certain 'youths' within the US(remember KSM was once a student in our decadent country, and I would argue strongly the still unwritten story of the 19 youths who slammed into the WTC(did they exist in Patterson NJ in a vacumn?), the prison conversion of the 'dirty bomber' Padilla, and on and on and on. It is naive in the extreme to think the uniqueness and good will and melting pot of America to 'change' Islam.

Turn your question on it's head. If France is a failure at the integration of Muslims, why have the Chinese and Sephardic Jews from Algeria(hundreds of thousands) melted into the French culture? Or the non-Muslim Asians such as Hindu's into the fabric of England. So, these countries you site, have no problem integrating certain religions but have problems with the 800 pound religion of peace. Why might that be?

"A bigger problem would be Kazakhstan, where Muslims are 47% of the population, but either breeding, or Uzbeg immigration could send that number above 50%."
-- from a posting above

Kazakhstan may nominally contain many Muslims, but what kind of Muslims are they? What does the word "Muslim" mean in that context? Many are bewildered by what they see of Muslim behavior in the world; the older generation still contains devout atheists, Communists, even veterans of World War II -- not all are impressed with the scramble for money. What of the newly-rich? Some, to salve their consciences, do what rich people do everyhere: give a little to pay for a building, and thta building often can be a mosque in a village, or aul, that did not have such a structure.

At the same time, convinced of the need to de-russify and re-kazakhize Kazakhstan, others may be prompted to fund cinematic epics about a quasi-mythical past, with behelmeted warriors armies charging across vast plains of Central Asia, and so on. No different from many Westerns.

Many "Muslims" in Kazakhstan are what one might call "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims. They often have not read Qur'an and Hadith, and can in truth not be held to a knowledge of it. For some, it is simply a marker, a marker to differentiate oneself from the Russians, from those associated with Soviet Communism. But the mores and manners of the Shari'a are scorned by most educated Kazakhs. It is not only the very attractive daughters of Nazarbayev, but the girls of Almaty, each more beautiful than the ntext, who mock by their own dress and ways those who would impose the Hijab, and when they visit Dubai on vacation, or even perhaps penetrate into Saudi Arabia, they are not taken with Arab ways.

But then there are the rich. The boomtown of Atyrau, the gushers of Kashagan. When one has done spending on oneself, one likes to curry favor with God. Good works instead of faith. And so a rich Kazakh businessman, having very little interest in Islam, may nonetheless build a mosque in his village or aul, a way of justifying his wealth to himself and to others. So far there are not many other ways for the rich in Kazakhstan to spend their money.

Yet they are also becoming worldly and well-travelled, and must realize that Muslim states, with the exception of Kemalist Turkey, are messes -- including the oil states. And they have in their past decades of Soviet anti-religious teachings that do not suddenly disappear. What will happen? Can the Kazakhs recognize the need to appeal not to an Islamic past but beyond that, to a pre-Islamic pagan past? Islam's return, if it happens, will endanger their own future as a modern people and polity; Islam is as much a bearer of emphasis on the collective, and dismissal of the individual, as was Soviet Communism. It is true that the old State University has been renamed in honor of Al-Farabi -- but would Al-Farabi himself have survived in a truly Muslim regime? Was he not, in his ways, akin to Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd, and especially to Ar-Razi, in the dangerous heterodoxy of his views?

One hopes that the construction of a national identity will not lead to the self-destruction of Kazakhstan, which has promise as long as Islam is kept well under control. The example of Kemalist Turkey, and the way Erdogan keeps chipping away at the constraints put on Islam, and the examples of so many oil-rich failures -- political, economic, social, and intellecutal -- in the Arab and Muslim world, should be salutary to warn Kazakhs away from too great an emphasis on Islam. Emphasize the pagan and pre-Islamic past, the world of Central Asia that remained unislamized for a long time (neither Hulegu, who conquered Baghdad in 1258, nor his soldiers, was Muslim).

In the construction of a national identity, the Kazakhs are free to pick and choose. One hopes for trheir own sake that they exercise great caution. It would be apity if the abandonment of one totalitarian system, with its Total Regulation of Life, Communism, were to lead to the adoption of another totalitarian explanatio of the universe, one even more powerful in its hold, and even more malignant in the way that the habit of mental submission it requires extends to all areas of life, and not, as with Communism, only to its political and economic aspects.

Oh, I "see an end to it".

As bright as every liberation.

The removal of anti-freedom, Islamic Imperialist elements back to Mecca, etc. to reform Islam, and to be sequestered there for as long as it takes, -or to die trying.

And the utter defeat of every Muslim terrorist and Islamic imam, mullah, and ayatollah preaching inhumanity, cruelty, intolerance, murder and an ultimate theocratic tyranny.

"Preachers" are supposed to restrain the human beast, the amoral animal nature (which we inherit in our DNA), not teach it clever new tricks.

Their end is assured.

Freedom is always more cunning than slavery.

Dan brings up a good point -- if we're not able to proceed from a position of strength *while we're strong*, then how will it be for us as we lose strength, in relative terms.

We can boycott/starve 2.5 million Muslims out of the United States in 5 years or less if we put our collective minds and wallets to the test.

Posted by: Foehammer at June 5, 2006 01:46 PM

I for one have boycotted all Muslim businesses. Also bought a hybrid car. Urge rest of JW do their bit.

Here's how to end the war: Declare Allah a myth among non-Muslims. The modern world will begin to take Islam less seriously. Defeat and nit-pick every superstition and ritual in Islam. Humiliate them and make them feel shame for subscribing to a non-existant "god". In modern nations, immigrant childeren will be less likely to consider allah with great concern. Dispell in the hearts and minds of all non-muslims any reason to consider allah to be a real deity. Defeat the notion that allah has ever existed. I could go on (and I will in future posts I'm sure) but I imagine most of you get the idea.

The philosophy to defeat this stupid carrot/stick "god" exists, people just need the spine to stand up and admit this for the sake of billions of lives and the future of our decendants and this world.

Don't forget this one thing - the greatest victims of all are the Muslims who actually refuse and reject religious violence. Since no one can separate these harmless humans from the trash, Here's how to end the war: Declare Allah a myth among non-Muslims. The modern world will begin to take Islam less seriously. Defeat and nit-pick every superstition and ritual in Islam. Humiliate them and make them feel shame for subscribing to a non-existent "god". In modern nations, immigrant childeren will be less likely to consider allah with great concern. Dispel in the hearts and minds of all non-muslims any reason to consider allah to be a real deity. Defeat the notion that allah has ever existed. I could go on (and I will in future posts I'm sure) but I imagine most of you get the idea.

The philosophy to defeat this stupid carrot/stick "god" exists, people just need the spine to stand up and admit this for the sake of billions of lives and the future of our descendants and this world.

Don't forget this one thing - the greatest victims of all are the Muslims who actually refuse and reject religious violence. Since no one can separate these harmless humans from the trash, they will be the greatest victims of all for centuries to come.

Nevertheless, declaring Allah as mythological as Zeus is, is long over due. Proclaiming that allah never existed in the first place is a ruthless yet bloodless weapon...unless of course a Muslim jihadist disagrees with you.

This and this alone is the sharpest and most direct way of telling the Ummah "you're faith is a lie". Stop respecting the Islamic beliefs that deserve no respect in the first place.they will be the greatest victims of all for centuries to come.

Nevertheless, declaring Allah as mythological as Zeus is, is long over due. Proclaiming that allah never existed in the first place is a ruthless yet bloodless weapon...unless of course a Muslim jihadist disagrees with you.

This and this alone is the sharpest and most direct way of telling the Ummah "you're faith is a lie". Stop respecting the Islamic beliefs that deserve no respect in the first place and the religion will begin to die...after all, if flesh is the soft target of Islam, Allah is the soft target of the infidel.

ooops sorry for the double copy typo!

Hugh

Thanks for weighing in on your views of Kazakhstan.

In terms of the national identity issue, I wonder to what extent do the Kazakhs resent the Russians, who though not a majority, are almost numerically equivalent to Kazakhs themselves. That country has a population of 14m, of which ~7m are nominally at least, Muslim. Two questions would arise:

• To what extent do Kazakhs resent the fact that the Russians form such a huge section of the population, larger % than even in Ukraine or Belarus
  
• Would they turn to Islam, and their Turkic compatriots in Uzbegistan, to turn the tables on the Russians?
  

The agenda that you list above for Kazakhstan - de-Russify, and re-Kaszakhize - is something that can be true about the other trans-Turanian republics as well. Uzbegistan seems to have done a fine job under Islam Karimov in suppressing Islam, but in their hunt for a national heritage, they have adapted Tamerlane, who wasn't an Uzbeg, as their national hero, much like Mongolia has Genghiz Khan. I haven't been following events in Kyrghizstan since the ouster of Akayev, but how likely are they to Islamize? One would think that Beijing would view such a move with alarm, since they are right next door to Xinxiang, and the restive Uygars. And in Turkmenistan, Suparmurad Niyazov looks identical to a modern day Kemal - he's fine-tuned a cult around himself. If Turkey is an example, then that country could go Islamic whenever Turkmenistan tries to go democratic.

I think Kazakhstan is unique in that its Russian population keeps it in check, just as Chinese and Tamils did in Malaya for so long, even if Astana did go democratic. It is important, since a country 4 times the area of Texas, but with a very small population, could serve to make more of Asia's map look green - particularly if they choose to unite with Uzbegistan, Kyrghizstan and Turkmenistan. I however, think that Russia just won't let that happen, since having such a huge Islamic neighbor on its southern border, unfettered by the ethnic Russkies, would be an unmanagable security threat for it, and a huge moreale booster to the Chechen campaign.

Hugh

The other question that comes up - while neither Hulegu nor his next 6 descendents were Muslim, they weren't Turkic either - they were Mongols. The Golden Horde, which was a bulk of the history of Kazakhstan, started out Mongol, became less and less so, and gradually Islamized. Mongols weren't and aren't Muslim - Mongolia's Muslim population is everywhere some 2% of their population. Given all that, does it seem likely that in their hunt for a Kazakh identity, the Kazakhs are likely to look to the Buddhist Mongols, as opposed to the Muslim Turks, as an inspiration?

Also, how pronounced are their differences with their three Turkic neighbors?

Sebastien

Russia's Muslim population is 5%, not 20%, and some of the areas you mention are less Muslim than it appears.

However, the OIC does list Russia as an associate member. I wonder how.