Fitzgerald: Is knowledge of Arabic really essential?

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald explodes a common myth:

"A full understanding of the Arabic language along with understanding of the context of the verses in question is an essential prerequisite..." -- from this article by Hesham A. Hasaballa

This is the first line of defense by the Defenders of the Faith. You, Infidel, cannot possibly understand the meaning unless you have not merely an "understanding" but rather a "full understanding" of the "Arabic language." This has been dealt with by many ex-Muslims, including Ibn Warraq, who point out the obvious: 80% of the world's Muslims are not Arabs and do not know Arabic. Yet they are treated as Muslims, and believe themselves to be Muslims, and act upon what they read in Qur'an and Hadith. Are all of them grossly misinformed? For that matter, how much of the Qur'an is accessible to Arabs? What about that famous 20% that makes no sense, and that Christoph Luxenberg, a world authority on the languages -- Arabic, Syriac (the Aramaic of Edessa), and lesser tongues -- of the period when the Qur'an was composed or concocted -- has helped to explain by reference to an Ur-text, or Ur-Qur'an, which was not written in Arabic. Arabic, indeed, was not a written language at the time; the Mu'allaqat appears to be a backdated post-Qur'anic forgery, as Taha Hussein, back in the 1920s, and others since, have argued. It was possibly designed to make written Arabic appear to be older than it is.

And despite the fact that there is less difference between classical Arabic and modern Arabic than there is between, say, the Anglo-Saxon of The Exeter Book and the English of today, that does not mean that Arab Muslims today possess anything like a "full understanding" of the classical Arabic of the 7th, or more likely 8th century.

In any case, the insistence that no one can comment on the Qur'an who does not possess what Hesham A. Hasaballa describes as a "full understanding" of Arabic, is simply absurd. And as for the open-ended requirement that one needs to have a "full" understanding "of the context of the verses in question," that too is absurd.

Why? Because when anyone comments on the Qur'an, one is commenting on how they are received, what their meaning is taken to be, has been taken to be, by Believers, over 1350 years. If Christoph Luxenberg is right, and if the Ur-Qur'an is a Christian lectionary written in Aramaic, and if in fact the keenest philologists agree that the 72 dark-eyed houris, the virgins promised in the Muslim version of Paradise to the Muslim version of martyrs (those killed fighting the Jihad against the Unbelievers), are really "clear raisins" -- so what? It will not change Muslim minds.

The evidence is overwhelming from the Qur'anic commentators (the authors of this or that tafsir) that the Qur'an means what most of us, had we time to read and reread it, and had we been properly apprised of the doctrine of "naskh" or abrogation, take it to mean. If anything, the most learned scholars of Islam, men whose type and whose standards scarcely exist in this field (as in so many other scholarly fields in which historical feeling or Gefuhl is needed, and a knowledge of languages essential) -- such people as Snouck Hurgronje, Joseph Schacht, Arthur Jeffery, St. Clair Tisdall, and dozens of others -- have unanimously concluded that Jihad in the Qur'anic sense involves violence, which comes as no surprise to anyone with any knowledge of Islamic history. (See the samples of their work that were recently republished in the useful anthology "The Legacy of Jihad").

It is no different from the figure of Muhammad. It may be that Muhammad never existed, or that he existed not in the Hejaz, but in southern Syria. Or that he existed in southern Syria, but at the end of the eighth century. Or that he existed, but all the Hadith (properly, ahadith) are merely tales woven -- a tale greater than "The 1001 Nights" -- by generations of pious fabulists.

That doesn't matter to those who believe in, or those who study those who believe in, Islam. What counts is what Believers believe. What do they think Muhammad did or said or what he meant when he was silent? What do they mean when they read in the Qur'an that he is "uswa hasana" and take his every word and deed as a guide for living, for he, Muhammad, is to them the Perfect Man?

What Believers believe, or what it is perfectly reasonable to believe that they believe -- the contents of that belief are not a mystery. Understanding the Qur’an does not require a knowledge of Arabic greater than that of a poppy farmer in Kandahar, or of a spoiled brat in Marin County, or of a "Palestinian" woman on the faculty at some Arab or Islamic Studies department -- Columbia, Georgetown, Exeter, Durham (does it matter?) -– or of the owner of a phone-card store in Dearborn, Michigan, or of a Somali member of the wandering tribe of Vu Cumpra flogging his phony wares just outside the Baptistery in Florence, or for that matter of any other Believer. Those Believers must Believe what hundreds of millions of Muslims have taken such concepts as Jihad to mean, and with remarkable consistency. They have wherever they could, whenever the wherewithal presented itself and the enemy was sufficiently weak, acted upon those beliefs. And (what is still more interesting) they have everywhere behaved in remarkably similar ways toward the various non-Muslims conquered and subjugated, whether they were Christians in Arabia or Syria or Mesopotamia or Egypt or Tripolitania, or Jews in Israel and Mesopotamia or Arabia, or Zoroastrians in Sassanian Persia, or Hindus and Jains in Hindustan and the East Indies, or Buddhists in Central Asia, in India, in the East Indies. Everywhere the treatment has been remarkably similar, or perhaps not remarkably, because the texts, the tafasir, the understandings have been, when it comes to Jihad and to Infidels, very much the same. And it has been the same with or without that "full understanding of Arabic" that Hesham A. Hasaballa tells us that we must possess if we are to have any conception of the "real" Islam.

Nonsense, as usual, on stilts.

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55 Comments

Who cares what muslims read?
Who cares what muslims write?
Who cares what muslims say?
Just observe what muslims do.

Not daring or even needing to disagree with Hugh I really see this point(not his, theirs) as irrelevant.

In fact, I would love to see just how many Muslim scholars read Syriac to gain some koranic illumination.

In the absence of the :" my god is better than your god" argument, (which descends to the "how many angels dance on the head of a pin" level very quickly),the only thing that matters is the contribution of Islam to humanity.

The west currently feeds most of the world either directly or indirectly (via advice, grants or seeds etc.). The west is responsible for the current high standard of living in many countries via its technology and its industry. The west has allowed exploitation of man's creatice instincts to enhance the value of life and health all across the planet and has realised that the planet is not infinite and that there is an upper limit to man's numbers.

What has islam contributed other than: barbarity, overbreeding, continued slavery, megalomaniacal elitist ideology and theosupremacy?

Even without the current western problems with Islam, the sectarian violence alone would disqualify them from a fair comparison.

I always have to snigger about how Muslims talk about the "worst" of western behaviour(street crime and indecency) when you challenge them about their jihadic violence. It would seem that God allowed violence is not seen as violence by them because the perpetrators spend so much time praying and bewng pious(by islamic standards).

Right on, Hugh. The thing that carries the most weight with me is how Muslims have acted over the centuries. The way Muslims have applied what they read in the Qur'an. Clearly, Muslims have for the most part interpreted the Qur'an to say that Islam must dominate and subjugate and they have practiced this for the most part of 14 centuries.

It would be one thing if someone came along and said "the Qur'an preaches violence" and there was little historical data to support it. But there is an overwhelming historical body of evidence that backs this up. And it's still going on today. Case closed.

There are two issues here, both important, but distinct. One concerns the historical reality of Islam, of Muhammad, of the early Arab conquests and depredations, how the notion of dhimma was formulated, etc. The second issue, which is of much more practical importance for us today, is what do Muslims today believe about Muhammad, Islamic origins, the early conquests, the holiness of Jerusalem [denied by Ibn Taymiyyah], the way the Quran and Muhammad wanted them to treat non-Muslims, the importance of jihad, etc. The second issue is of more practical importance because it influences how Muslims behave today. So we do not have to know whether the original reward of the mujahidin was 72 white raisins or 72 black-eyed houris. It would be nice to know the answer to this question. But if the Muslims believe that the Quran means 72 virgin houris [whose virginity is perpetually renewed], then we have to deal with that as part of the ongoing and never-ended jihad. Of course, the answer to the question of the original meaning could be useful in fighting the current jihad. But only if properly disseminated. If the question stays inside unread books, then the answer doesn't mean much.

That doesn't matter to those who believe in, or those who study those who believe in, Islam. What counts is what Believers believe. ....Hugh...nails it....Faith.....Two books.....Faith in the Koran....Faith in the Bible...Or for some reject both....But Christians and Jews wont kill for rejecting the BIBLE...we are told to be Seprate...away from what others do or say if it doesnt fit the plan of the Bible....I read and study the Bible everyday...but also the works of Josephus...Herodotus...The Annals of the world, Ussher....Pliny...World history as well as books by Robert and Dore Gold...the Koran...As a Christian I am not Afraid of learning...thru it my Faith grows....not so the Koran....between the words the Koran states that by learning too much many have lost Faith.....Could this be why the Arab world is so behind the West....fear of Learning?

The issue of Arabic translation is rendered largely irrelevant by the existence of tafsir. Tafsir explains the verses in detail, giving the most probable intended meaning of the verses, using a variety of synonyms to avoid the possibility of misinterpretation, etc. Some tafsirs, such as Ibn Kathir's, link up the Qur'anic verses with the relevant ahadith and parts of the Sira which provide context. Tafsirs are available in all the major languages.

Hugh is correct that Islam is what its believers believe. Whenever these various red herrings are raised (e.g., "you don't know Arabic," "you're taking it out of context," etc), it is invariably in the context of some apologist's attempt to confuse infidels about what the Koran was probably intended to mean and what the prevailing Islamic orthodoxy holds true and has held true for the past approximately 1300 years. We see this quite a lot when apologists, such as Hassaballa, try to present their own private vision of Islam, sweetened up for non-Muslim westerners' consumption, and claim that everything else is "a distortion."

"72 dark-eyed houris, the virgins promised in the Muslim version of Paradise...are really "clear raisins"

This kind of thing is good for a laugh, but it's nonsense. Since when are raisins "bashful" and have "wide lustrous eyes" and "firm high breasts" and "recline on couches" and are "loving companions"?

78:31. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed maidens for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
44:54. Even thus: and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris.
52:20. They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris We shall wed them.
37:40 But the true servants of God shall be well provided for, feasting on fruit, and honoured in the gardens of delight.
Reclining face to face upon soft couches, they shall be served with a goblet filled at a gushing fountain, white, and delicious to those who drink it. It will neither dull their senses nor befuddle them.
They shall sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.
___

55:51 Each is watered by a flowing spring. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
Each bears every kind of fruit in pairs. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
They shall recline on couches lined with thick brocade, and within reach will hang the fruits of both gardens. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
55:60 Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good? Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
And beside these there shall be two other gardens (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) of darkest green. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
55:66 A gushing fountain shall flow in each. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
Each planted with fruit-trees, the palm and the pomegranate. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
55:70 In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
Dark-eyed virgins, sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?), whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets. Which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?
55:78 Blessed be the name of your Lord, the Lord of majesty and glory!
___

56:28 They shall recline on couches raised on high in the shade of thornless sidras and clusters of talh (fruit trees); amidst gushing waters and abundant fruits, unforbidden, never-ending.
We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand: a multitude from the men of old, and a multitude from the latter generations.

I must remember to study German, enough to be a great scholar in that language, so that I can truly understand what Hitler really meant in "Mein Kampf."
Martin

Hugh you have put a nail into the coffin of a cherished myth of Muslim apologist and Muslims alike. This myth must be discredited.

Excellent points. There are only two words in Arabic the average person must understand, Jihad and Da'wa, that is enough.

I suppose that knowledge of Arabic and Pashtun and Urdu are need by the worlds security forces, so that we can know our enemies plans. But just think how much simpler it would to just expel those that understand the Koran as it was originally practice in the 8th century and still is today in ever growing numbers.

Then we could spend our time learning on more beautiful things like French or Spanish or Swedish.

"If Christoph Luxenberg is right, and if the Ur-Qur'an is a Christian lectionary written in Aramaic..."

Or a Gnostic Christian, or otherwise heterodox Christian, text.

Not only the proliferation of Gnostic and heretical streams in the Christianity of the Ecumenic Age (as rife in Asia Minor as elsewhere throughout the ecumene) but also the obviously deformed nature of the end product of this particular, hypothetical Ur-text -- namely, Islam -- would lead one to conclude reasonably that it was likely not orthodox Christian.

I do believe that mohammad existed. There was some model which they all strive to copy. That is the way that mohammad lived, his deeds, his deceit and treachery, his murdering ways, his unshaven face, and the loose sack clothes.

Proud Infidel,
Hugh said it. The word is Behaviour. The behaviour of muslims towards all things infidel is the same throughout the world, since the inception of islam. I am just back from the farm of a friend. Unfortunately, a muslim hovel is nearby. They are routinely sending their kids to steal one of his cows or calves so they can butcher it and have a party. Being kids, my friend can only slap them around. You can match this with the behaviour of the iranis sending kids to demine. Or the recent behaviour of the palis when they sent kids armed with toy guns towards a Jewish check post. Today I was behind some bushes when I heard three kids selecting a cow from his paddock, and I was chilled to think that they were completely organized. They are being taught to steal at the age of 5. I did chase them off, but my friend keeps losing his milch cattle regularly.

My father-in-law, a scholar and a gentleman of Baghdadi origin going back many centuries (my wife is an Israeli of Iraqi Jewish descent) told me that there is a story, current for eons among the b'nei edot ha mizrach (Jews of eastern origin) that the Quran was penned by an Arabic speaking Jew who was kept in a hole by Muslims and forced to write the book. Is anyone familiar with this legend? If so, share what you know because I'd love to hear more. There is little written about it though I have heard it often from my wife's people.

Last week, by the way, marked the 66th anniversary of the Farhud, the massacre of over 600 Baghdad Jews when a nazi Arab contingent seized power. It happened on the Jewish feast of Shavuot (weeks or pentacost) and was ended by Kurdish troops loyal to the King. The British stood by on the skirts of the city and refused to help.

Please email me if you have more info:

SandPupN29Palms@aol

Thanks

Arjun, I hope from where you come from, these kids are not subjected to have their hands choped off.

On the same note, I grew close to a local mosque where the cheap loud speakers played sermons about islam.

I was shocked to listen that the main content was to compete with other religion. To take their political & economic power from them.

I was also moved when the imam said not to support non muslims ecomonically, meaning, not to buy non muslim made products.

He made a statement stating that soap & shampoo was haram if its made from non muslims.

I would think that the friday brainwashing is eminent to keep muslims stupid.

Following that, the knowledge of arabic is irrelevent if they dont have the basic thinking principles.

Much like the analogy, If you cant bake 1 cake right, baking 100 cakes wont make it right as well.

Its a stupid principle to have arabic knowledge as a point to learn quran.

I hope the muslims would understand that the quran is a arab manual to make non arabs slaves to them. Or better still, Arab supermacy.

1. Most instigated fighthing are fought by non arabs. Arabs command them to do so.

2. One of my friends religion teacher told me that Arab women cant marry non arabs.

3. Arabs are the pure race, other races are dirty/unpure.

4. Arabs are special because they helped & embraced islam first.

5. Everyone should follow the arabs as an example.

6. God chose arabs to send the last prophet.

7. Arabic is the purest language/gods chosen language.

& the list goes on & on... Some may not be accurate, please correct me.


Another example is that many cultures & religions are lost & replaced by arab or pseudo arab religion.

Even egyption muslims in general said islam is a good religion but sent to the wrong people.

The rule is simple, We should not respect those whom do not respect us.

Anyone agree?

DesertDawgN29:

please read the origin of quran in http://www.faithfreedom.com

the short answer is yes.

tjwork,
I am from India. Like I said, we can only slap the stealing kids around. I am still stunned from that conversation of kids I overheard. I do not have the mental makeup to deal with people who teach their kids to steal infidels at the age of 5. And when caught, well they are just kids playing with cows. If not caught, well, a party of infidel cattle. How do you deal with these people ? No wonder our politicians are gawking and afraid to call a spade a spade. This problem can only be dealt with in a fashion that I cannot describe, since I would certainly be disbarred from posting further.

Using the argument that a full knowledge of Arabic is essential in the analysis of Qura’an, is a very famous maneuver. Not only is it exercised against western critics that attempt to argue against any Qura’anic Verse, it’s also exercised against Arab Muslims who actually understand the verse well. They then wonder why the verse is so hostile, because they presume the divinity of Qura’an. Quranic Arabic is a straightforward Arabic, unlike the Latin Bible translated into other European languages in the medieval ages. It does not require translation into other Arabic languages, for there only exists one formal Arabic language that all Arab nations understand. The linguistic difference between every Arabic country is just a matter of a pronunciation difference, but every Arab understands the classical Arabic (Fosha). The words “slay”,” smite” or “behead” do not require more than one translation. Moreover, there are no Arabic words with the same meaning but the ones used in the mentioned verses. The difference between the Tafsirs in interpreting Qura’an or Sunnah, is just circumstantial. For instance, they might vary in interpreting the occasion a verse came on, but they would never have different interpretations of one word. The prerequisites Hasaballah mentioned above are only there to protect Qura’an from being interpreted for what it truly is, by Arabs before westerns. On the other hand, Tafsirs and translations have been so flexible after September 11th. But that’s only to serve one stream of “western Muslims” who fear “mistreatment” after Islam was seen for what it truly is that day.

I agree with my brothers and sisters who have made the point that no matter what is written, Islam is as Islam does.

A Sufi told me that every verse of the Quran has seven layers of hidden mystical meaning.

I hope we live long enough to learn what the other six are.

Zathras wrote:

What has islam contributed other than: barbarity, overbreeding, continued slavery, megalomaniacal elitist ideology and theosupremacy?

Don't be too hasty there. Arab Muslims contributed much to the advancement of mathematics in algebra, trigonometry, Arabic numerals, even the concept of 0 (zero)--which Europeans initially considered useless for all intents & purposes (which was obviously a mistake).

To say that they have contributed nothing to the advancement of civilization over the course of time is simply ignoring the facts.

And, no, I am not an Islamic apologist.

I'm afraid you must be mistaken in thinking there is a connection between the word jihad and violence: when a reporter asked him about jihad, one of the two men arrested in Forest Gate and later released, said at a press conference, yesterday, that "Jihad meant striving to help people" and as a man who was clearly a strongly religious Muslim, he should know.

Arjun, your post was a coincidence.

"They were taught to steal from the infedels at the age of 5"

The same thing I heard from staying close to a mosque.

"To take power from non muslims (infedels)"

To take is a nice word for steal.

You guys should have learnt from what happened to hindus in pakistan during the saperation wars.

I really dont understand on why we should tolerate the people that were taught to steal & plan to eradicate us eventually (unless we convert).

Well, they are kids, I cant suggest to deal the way they would deal an infedel. You might want to pack some nice extreamly spicy chicken curry & let them enjoy squating.

--

First, they say one need to know the quran to comment on it. Then people read the quran & question it.

Then they say, you need to know arabic to comment on the quran.

Again they will fail to defend it & say only muslims can comment on the quran.

Oh wait, They already done this in Malaysia.

--

chronicon, & dont forget, most are coppied from sanskrit the knowledge of invading other nations.

chronicon,

Every once in a while one has to remind yet another person who has apparently uncritically accepted the standard whitewashing version of the history of Islam of other, more critical, sources:

If you wish to open your mind to other analyses of the supposed Islamic contributions to science and learning, please read:

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4685

also, see the above link discussed here at Dhimmi Watch almost one year ago:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007439.php

Tjwork wrote:

"DesertDawgN29:

please read the origin of quran in http://www.faithfreedom.com

the short answer is yes."

Is tjwork that tricky rabid jihadist Hohideen Ibramsha?

People you want Ali Sina's freedomfaith.org not Ibramsha's pro-jihad faithfreedom.com.

chronicon,
This is a myth. The zero they got from the Hindu numeral system. And there have been discussions on this site in the month of May itself about the contributions of islam to the fields of arts and science and literature. I'll save you some trouble. Tell me, if they were that creative in architecture, why are mosques all over the world made with the architecture of ancient Byzantine Cathedrals, the first monuments to be taken over by madmo ? Algebra, trignometry, what did they do with it ? Can you name one muslim scientist ? Yes, you can. a.q. khan. He stole nu. tech. from Europe. And while we are at it, could you tell me which islamic country (there are 54 of them )produces enough food to feed its own people ? None. I could go on, but suffice it to say that muslims have only looted and destroyed. Heck, they cannot even build and operate the oil rigs.

americaningermany,
I am not familiar with the bestial angle. Homosexuality, however, is prevalent.
No, they are not calling the cows infidel, the cows belong to infidels, and since stealing from infidels is right, they do it. And a farmer has a thousand things to do. Once the cows are left to graze in the fodder fields, they are easy targets for stealing by kids.

Tziona,

Sincerely sorry for that.

the link for Ali Sina Webpage is: http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Television,

I am unconvinced (by the single article you cite) that my point--that Arab Muslims contributed much to mathematics--is somehow a misconception.

Google is our friend:

al-Khwarizmi mathematics

I believe you will find that this concept is overwhemingly supported.

In case my comment above , on jihad meaning "Striving to help people," is taken the wrong way: the reporter should, of course, have followed up with the questions: 'what did he mean by striving?' and 'what did he mean by people?'.

Another point that needs repeating: As we've seen before, Dr. Hasaballa is making all his claims as a reply to whom he calls "Islam's conservative critics." Has Dr. Hasaballa ever made these same points as a reply to Muslim activists and radicals who have taken it upon themselves to interpret the Quran as a call to violence?

For example, what would Dr. Hasaballa say to the organization "Young Muslims of Canada," who have written this on their website in English:

"Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded. Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of the martyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have acted similarly and who have modelled themselves upon the martyrs in their performance of jihad can join them in this reward.

"....The verses of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) are overflowing with all these noble ideals and they summon people in general (with the most eloquent expression and the clearest exposition) to jihad, to warfare, to the armed forces, and all means of land and sea fighting.

"Refer to the verses (4: 71-78) in the Noble Book to understand how Allah urges the Muslims to remain alert and to acquire experience in warfare, in armies and troops, or as individuals, as circumstances may dictate....

"It is fard (obligatory) on us to fight with the enemies. The Imam must send a military expedition to the Dar-al-Harb every year at least once or twice, and the people must support him in this."


http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/index.htm

I am sick and tired of hearing all these "explanations" to non-Muslims of how peaceful Islam is. If we ever see an open letter published by a moderate Muslim to Osama, or al-Zarqawi, or any of their ilk, telling them "You are violating the tenets of Islam....The prophet Mohammed would never approve of your actions....Islam is a religion of peace and you are dishonoring it with your violence...." then I'll be interested. But I'm not even interested in dissecting any more Muslim "circle the wagons" defenses against non-Muslim critics. Just not interested anymore. I've had enough.

arjun.sevak:

I wrote:

Don't be too hasty there. Arab Muslims contributed much to the advancement of mathematics in algebra, trigonometry, Arabic numerals, even the concept of 0 (zero)--which Europeans initially considered useless for all intents & purposes (which was obviously a mistake).

I did not say they INVENTED these things I said they "contributed much." Expounding on the Hindu numerical system was a contribution to the study of mathematics in Europe. Google al-Khwarizmi mathematics (this link narrows it to schools (.edu) otherwise you get over 52,000 hits) and have a look for yourself.

Here's a sampling:

Al-Khwarizmi wrote numerous books that played important roles in arithematic and algebra. In his work, De numero indorum (Concerning the Hindu Art of Reckoning), it was based presumably on an Arabic translation of Brahmagupta where he gave a full account of the Hindu numerals which was the first to expound the system with its digits 0,1,2,3,....,9 and decimal place value which was a fairly recent arrival from India.

We may condemn radical/fanatical Islamic ideology, but to say that is all there is, and ever was may be going a bit too far.

arjun.sevak: a while back I had the realization that you only truly own what you can effectively defend.

Whether it is some cattle --- or your life.

If only the State is allowed to defend property and lives, then everyone's property and life belongs to the State, which may choose the disposition of its property by choosing what to defend and what not to defend

Unless your friend has the ability to cause unacceptable consequences to occur in response to such theft, it will only gradually increase. As news gets around that there is a willing victim, more thieves will decide to come over and partake of the looting. There is only one logical end to it all.

Those who wish to compare the known contributions of Muslim (as opposed to Arabic-using) and specifically of Muslim Arab (as opposed to, say, Persian) mathematicians to the history of mathematics, are invited to read the histories of mathematics and science and technology by A. C. Crombie, Charles Singer, Dirk Struik, and others. They are also invited to read Toby Huff's study of a few years ago, which attempts to explain why modern science developed in the West, and not elsewhere, not in China, not in the lands of Islam. And one might wish to read the hysterical review of that book by George Saliba, of Columbia fame, and then Huff's reply (google "Toby Huff" and "Saliba" and "Posted by Hugh" for more).

Muslims are particularly zealous in their steady exaggeration of supposedly Muslim inventions and advancements. The Hindu "zero" which was transmitted to the Islamic world, just as paper-making (see Dard Hunter) came to Damascus from China, has long been claimed for the Arabs and Islam. Similarly, the most famous Arabic-using mathematician, the polymath Al-Khwarizmi, is put forth as some kind of representative for Islam, when his own history suggests a lone and unorthodox wolf, in the tradition of al-Rhazi.

My own thought it that once one has thrown out all those who, though they are known by their Arabic names, were in fact Christians or Jews, and once one has determined that the Muslim figures who remain were only one or two or at most three generations away from their non-Muslim ancestors, one begins to suspect that "Islamic" science disappeared because the non-Muslims ceased to be an important part of the population, had been sufficiently reduced in numbers or otherwise marginalized so that the spirit of Islam -- a spirit most inimical to free and skeptical inquiry about everything, including what Newton and other scientists in Christendom saw as the laws of Nature that could be determined, for God himself had set the clockwork mechanism in motion, and Man could determine the laws according to which that mechanism functioned, while in Islam, Allah obeys no laws, but is whimsical, does just what he likes, and submissive man must be a slave to Allah, and question nothing, wonder quizzically about nothing, investigate nothing, for Allah knows best. People raised to believe that kind of thing, existing in societies where everyone believes or must pretend to believe that kind of thing, may manage to engage in that bastard-child of science called weapons technology, but that is acceptable because those weapons will help Islam to overcome the Infidels What is inadmissible is for Muslims to study the nature of DNA, or subatomic particles. Some born into Islam may do so -- but in so doing, they are showing that they are not true Believers.

This is the first line of defense by the Defenders of the Faith. You, Infidel, cannot possibly understand the meaning unless you have not merely an "understanding" but rather a "full understanding" of the "Arabic language."


H O G W A S H !!!


In my travels to various and sundry places on this ever shrinking planet, I have encountered many a muslim who could not read or write in any language.

They could converse in this or that language of the region they happened to be in but beyond that -- they were functional illiterates in their own society.

Nevertheless, they were muslim!

They were "educated" via oral tradition in the ways of islamic culture. Their imams addressed them as fellow islamics with all rights and privileges that go with it.

So the claim that one needs a "full understanding of the "Arabic language" is chimerical at best and absurdly pretentious to the point of sheer arrogance given certain embarassing realities such as the one I have indicated!

Furthermore, there exists a plethora of wonderful scholarship on the subject of islam available to anyone who cares to read it, crafted by people who do indeed meet the stated criteria of having a "full understanding of the Arabic language!"

Well said Hugh...

Papabear,
I undestand binary equations. How can we implement them with this particular case ?

Cronicon,
I don't have time to answer you post so I have just copied and pasted out of an old letter to a friend here in Europe I opologise for the odd expetive but I think you will get the point What Ithe so called contribution Islam has given to the world is nothing more than smoke and mirrors


The problem is it will continue until the Dutch and the rest of the west realize that the problem is not terrorism but Islam itself we are still in denial. Most westerners still think of Mohamed as a later day Jesus Christ, which he most certainly was not . He was a mentally sick Al Capone type leader of a vicious sect which is out to dominate the world. The other problem is that we have given them the tools to do and are tied hand and foot by our need to have there oil to run our economies, and the Saudi’s are the worst bastards. They have reputedly spent 79 billion Dollars to spread the word of Islam since 1979. Now you know where they get all the money from to build all of there mosques. They are planning to build 4500 new mosques in India. And all with Saudi money. In Londonistan they have built a massive mosque in the center of London in Regents park the largest mosque in Europe that can contain 3000 people is in south Londonistan and they are planning to built one near the site of the 2012 Olympic Games with a reputed capacity of 40,000 for the use of the muslims coming to the Olympic Games. We keep sending them money in exchange for there oil, and they keep sending there money back to undermine the west, and all because we have got no alternative energy source. The thing is that they do a dam good public relations job. I found out that Bill Clinton gets $1,000,000 dollars a shot giving lecture tours in the middle east, now he is not going to say anything nasty about the Arab bastards Sultan Charles Windsor is always nipping off to the middle east to be wined and dined coming back with nice presents and saying nice things about how islam is misunderstood in the west. They are what you would call useful idiots, and it is just pocket money for the Saudi’s. I don’t know if you know about it but there is a traveling exhibition in England at the moment called 1001 inventions of the islam tic world. It seems that they invented coffee and the three course meal. There are books poster the whole lots. Now that can be only pure bullshit, I went out an checked the site and most of the sponsors are Arabs Gulf states. It is nothing more than a public relations job to pull the wool over the west eyes until they are strong enough to take over. Just think about it a bit and you will realize that it is bullshit. In 641 just 9 years after mohamed’s death his thugs destroyed the greatest library in the world the library of Alexandria along with Alexander’s tomb. There were 700,000 scrolls it took them 5 months to burn the lot. When asked what to do the head thug said what isn’t in the Koran is blasphemy burn the lot. What a loss to the world and remember Egypt was Christian and all of Afghanistan was Buddhist at this time. What the west got from the Arabs that came out of Spain during the middle ages was mainly translations of the old Greek masters that were not burnt. Ok Al Khowariszmi did invent Algebra but he borrowed mainly from the Hindus who invented the Zero and the decimal point which is basically the Zero place system we use today if you want me to explain what I mean I will tell you when we see each other next. After that virtually nothing. Now think what the west has done in terms of Mathematics Newton calculus and the Binomial theorem without which the modern industrial system could not function Poincarie who invented topography Benoit who discovered fractals and how it is related to chaos theory. I could name at least twenty thirty Mathmaticians that were better and produced more than the muslim world ever produced and that is off the top of my head and as for inventions you could do the same and you wouldn’t have to stretch your mind even, just look around and you can tick them off Portland cement concrete steam engine pumps electric motors fridges ball bearings rocket motor gas turbine, the list is endless, 1001 inventions shrinks into insignificance when you think of the 1,000,001 inventions the west have produced during the last 500 years and this is the result of 1,400 years. The whole affair makes me sick.
Did you know that the That the muslims have had a total of 8 Nobel prizewinner only two of which were scientists one of them was that thug Arafat who got it for peace the bastard, since then I have never taken the Nobel prize committee seriously. While the Jews have had 167 Nobel Laureates as the Jews are out numbered by the muslims 100 to 1 then if there were as many Jews in the World as muslims then they would have won a grand total of 16,700 Nobel Laureates put that by the side of 8 and you see the difference. I don’ t even have to say anymore but I will did you know that they almost disinvented the wheel. When they took over North Africa in the 7th century most transport was done by carts over the extensive roman road system, all that slowly disappeared and they resorted to pack animals which less efficient ie the camel. You would have thought that the stupid bastards would have invented a decent camel cart

Muslims destroyed a lot, but pace the poster just above, they did not destroy the Library of Alexandria.

chronicon,

I'd suggest you read Hugh's long post above and follow the leads therein. Hugh's argument can be boiled down to two points:

1) while contributions to scientific progress under Islam were not non-existent, they were far inferior to those that occurred in the West;

2) what scientific culture did exist under Islam (outside of mere transcription & preservation of pre-existing texts), they were due mainly to:

a) the use of non-Muslims (Christians, Jews, Hindus) who, being non-Muslims, were more talented and even the barbaric and rigidly thinking Muslims dimly recognized this enough at least to find them useful;

b) the work of Muslims who, to one degree or another, were not really Muslims at heart.

Okay, three points.

Steven L.,

Young Muslims of Canada has the complete "Milestones" by Syed Qutb, online, as well. Not exactly a peaceful text, eh?

Gee, If Mo really was Allah's appointed messenger, I wonder why Mohammed's apostles couldn't speak in tongues. Which by the way is an often misunderstood and misused miracle.

Holger Dansker, That is a horrible insult to the memory of Alphonse Capone.

Cronicon,
I agree, google is our friend. Try it with: "What Arab civilization?" for the modern day Assyrian take on Arab scientific and artistic accomplishments.

americaningermany,
If what those Pakis told you is true, doesn't the fact they shared that with you speak volumes? I once had a cab driver tell me something similar- regarding a carpe fish, yikes!

Thanks all for you input on the "Muslims & mathematics" thread. I'm here to stay informed and will look into these matters further as suggested.

Thanks all for your input on the "Muslims & mathematics" thread. I'm here to stay informed and will look into these matters further as suggested.

On the original point that the Quran can't be understood without knowing Arabic, someone tell that to the various people who have translated it, like Pickhthall.

On the number system, I know that the number system was invented in India, and that its correct term is "Hindu numerals". That said, I do find it curious that in Indian vernacular languages, such as Hindi and Bengali, it's not used - they have their own numerals. Are these Hindu numerals at least used in Sanskrit?

Arjun, about your friend, ask him to find a way to make those kids land up in jail, preferably by luring them in and bribing a cop to arrest them. Then if their "mentors" come looking for them, not only deny that they've been there, but also counter-confront them - "Why, what would they be doing at our farm? Stealing our cows?". Drive them away (threatening them with a communal riot if needed), and let them wonder what's happened to their kids. In the meantime, have the kids turned over to the Bajrang Dal, so that they can be converted and re-educated, and maybe one day send to riot against these provocateurs.

This kind of thing is good for a laugh, but it's nonsense. Since when are raisins "bashful" and have "wide lustrous eyes" and "firm high breasts" and "recline on couches" and are "loving companions"? Posted by: Archimedes
LOL. I think they meant that the martyrs, when they get there, become women who are bashful, with wide lustrous eyes, firm high breasts (DD?) and recline on couches, munching on a bunch of grapes that are dried and become raisins as a result.

Someday, some porn shop should make a movie depicting all this action in the Quran/Hadith (whichever has it), bill it as a documentary, and release it into the realms of dar-ul-Islam.

Dr. Hasaballa is a Chicago area emergency room physician who used to post similar nonsense at Muslim Wake UP!.

He states, concerning sura 9:5's "perceived intolerance of non-Muslims" that:

"It may even lead one to conclude that all the talk about Islam being a religion of "peace" is a ruse, and that the real Islam is the violent, repressive faith practiced by Osama bin Laden and the Taliban."

And then proceeds to state:

"For there to be any semblance of an intelligent and scholarly analysis of verses of the Qur'an, a full understanding of the Arabic language along with understanding of the context of the verses in question is an essential prerequisite."

Of course, Sheik bin Laden is (I believe) both fluent in Arabic and quite well versed in Islamic teachings.

Remember, there's no difference between the Qur'an that Dr. Hasaballa reads and those read by Muslim fundamentalists.

Perhaps that is the reason that folks like Dr. Hasaballa and other 'moderate' Muslims don't (and can't) challenge their fundamentalist brethren's interpretations of Qur'an/ahadith/sira.

BTW: based upon Allah's explanation of where human sperm is produced, I'm not sure I'd want to see Dr. Hasaballa for a vasectemy.

Gedankenexperiment:

1)

An American soldier, back from Iraq, still wearing a dog-tag ("Isaac Cohen"), is in an automobile accident and is wheeled into the Emergency Room to be treated by Hashem A. Hasablla.

You are a friend or relative of the accident victim. Any worries?

2)

One of the "Lost Boys" of the Sudan, a figure often seen speaking on American television about the persecution and murder of Christians in the southern Sudan, accidentally gives himself a wound while chopping meat. He is rushed to the Emergency Room, there to be treated by Hashem A. Hasaballa.

You are a friend or relative of the accident victim. Any worries?

Make up your own hypotheticals. Law professors do it all the time. And then answer them, as you see fit, in the privacy of your own mind.

"Okay, three points."

More precisely, one single-pronged point and one bifurcated point.

As some one who is learning Arabic because of needs at work and because we will need to learn the language of the enemy, I can say that I'm not surprised that there are so many illiterates in the Arab world.

Arabic is written in script form, without short vowels, only using cumbersome dashs over or under consonants in its formal style, and with letters that vary in shape depending on their place in a word.

Image learning three different shapes for the letter "h" and having all three shapes in one word, or the pileup letters that crunch several of them in very complicated shapes. It seems to me that this is a writing system with the complexity and quickness of stenography perhaps ideal for writing fast instructions and dispaches to the troops.

Arabic writing is designed to create illiterates.

Well what can I say?

you all answered chronicon for me and rather better than I could have.

However, chronicon missed my point which was even if you allow the miniscule part that Islam has played to the benefit of humanity, its negative effects are overwhelmingly superior in effect and akin to the bubonic plague.

However on thinking I have to say that Islam is WORSE than the bubonic plague, smallpox and tuberculosis combined. Why? After these 3 diseaes swept though a state there were survivors who were stronger and fitter and so the next generations also became so and so on.

Islam swept over states: it cleansed the coutryside of its humanity. if a city surrendered the young males were butchered or kept as slaves. The young women were kept as slaves or lived as prostitutes unless they had the money to pay the taxes. The net result was that after 100 years or 3 -4 generations there were ONLY conqueror(see arab) Y chromosomes left in the breeding population. Whereever the Muslims conquered you can see this genetic handiwork: in sicily, Malta, southern spain, Greece, Bosnia etc. The only enclaves of original genetic purity were those groups who easily converted but as the arab domination of islam continued, even these enclaves suffered the same erosion by the arab Y. It is this domination of the arab Y which is the basis for islamic sterility.

The cultural sterility of the Arab male when added to that of the al Ghazzali bound koran makes for a lethally static mindset where God is responsible for all so why ask questions. With this burden it is no wonder that even modern muslims are incapable of NOTHING but destruction and death.

I do not care anymore what the Koran says or does not say. I only care about what its believers do and that is quite enough for me to contemplate the possible repercussion for Muslims as a whole.

Even if one were to concede Islam's "past glory days and contributions" to Western civilization, how do they in the same breath explain the failure of so many Islamic states today? How can it be that the West benefit so much from Islam and yet simultaneously Islam not benefit from itself? Blaming colonialism only highlights Islam's inability and impotence to deal with adversity (something all Muslims would be loathe to admit of their "perfect" religion).







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