Interview with Cardinal George Pell

Cardinal Pell is amazing. He has a brain; he isn't ignorant (I can think of too many people in the whole world who have read Bat Ye'or's Dhimmitude - Jihadwatchers excepted!); he isn't afraid to raise difficult questions. I would love to see this guy become the next Pope!

Cardinal Pell said

That’s the million dollar question. [...] Can a good moderate Muslim be faithful to the Koran?

I'd prefer to get replace the ambiguous "moderate" keyword with something more concrete, such as "non-violent". Of course they can, they can simply ignore what the Qur'an and Sunnah clearly instruct them to do ("smite at the infidels' necks wherever you find them").

But if they consider themselves "true Believers", they will always be susceptible to returning to the violent core of Islam. Maybe it will be a cartoon in a newspaper, maybe it will be deportation of an "extremist" Imam, who knows what will set them off? Maybe it will be more personal, perhaps the death of a father or birth of children, that causes a re-examination of one's values, a reminder that this world is transient, and the only way to eternal Paradise is martyrdom in the service of Allah. As long as violence is at the core of Islam, there will always be an issue of mistrust: when will the "moderates" start becoming more observant of their religion?

And it's not a million dollar question, it's in the billions already.

special_guest: very nice comment! (above)

George Cardinal Pell IS the man.

I wonder if his comments have been cleared with the Vatican.

I find it difficult to believe that Cardinal Pell is going off on his own wicket.

THIS is an incredibly divisive issue, which cuts across continents.

And the Vatican knows it.

So that's why I wonder if Cardinal Pell has been cleared prior to.

what a great interview.

Closer, but still no cigar.

you seem to want to say that Christian intolerance is a distortion of Christianity, but Muslim intolerance is not a distortion of Islam.

The million dollar question is whether they are distortions of Islam. I’m not sure.

you believe jihad is not a modern distortion of Islam, but something that arises from its internal logic?

That’s the million dollar question.

*******************************

I just won two million damn dollars! We should change the name of Jihad Watch to The Millionaires Club.

Did the above readers who gave Pell glowing reviews actually "read it all"?

Quote:

Oriana Fallaci and others warn that Europe may become an outpost of Islamic civilization. Do you think that goes too far?

I do. I don’t think that’s the more immediate danger at all. The greater danger is that there would be white fascist reaction. I think both dangers are remote at the moment, but between the two, the danger of an anti-Muslim reaction is greater.

yup. his viewpoints are far more comprehensive than the quotes in bold and italics above. Look forward to hearing more from this forwards-thinking Cardinal.

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
why do you think you have a hold of the whole issue?
i'm interested to know your perspective.

"why do you think you have a hold of the whole issue?"

From reading Jihad Watch for three years, in addition to many other analyses of the problem of Islam, I'd say that Pell grasps some of the points which have been presented at Jihad Watch, but misses some important ones: hence, close but no cigar. At this stage of the game, it is impermissible for a person of Pell's stature and learned intelligence to be short of the cigar.

Again, I'm glad for the number of points he grasps, but on the other hand, he sits there in that interview expounding on this vast vagueness of questions of whether there is a problem here, or a problem there, and, gee, who really knows for sure, we need to have more bridge-building inter-faith colloquiums with moderate Muslims, yes, that's the ticket, etc. At this stage of the game, such catholic (small "c") vagueness
is simply not tolerable. I say we should adopt the "Harlem Apollo Theater Method" when we guage the quality & caliber of expounders of the problem of Islam: the minute they start saying impermissible things that just a little time spent reading would dispel, they get jeered off stage by the audience, and Old Man Fitzgerald yanks them off with his shepherd's crook.

Dan: yes, Cardinal Pell's interview reflects the current Pope's mind pretty much exactly - although you are wrong in assuming that, in general, cardinals would clear interviews or other public statements with the Vatican in advance. Some of them - Danneels, Martini, Mahoney, to name just a few - seem to delight in using their high and tenured position (I cannot remember a single case of a Cardinal being deprived of his rank, and I doubt whether it is even possible) to tweak the Pope's tail. But Cardinal Pell is the Pope's man, not because he is in any way a crawler, but because he agrees with the Pope on most major current issues.

In general, Pope Benedict's influence has been towards a general strengthening of discipline and orthodoxy; witness, for instance, the rash of firings of teachers in Catholic high schools for such things as cohabiting, having a child out of wedlock or with IVF, declaring oneself homosexual on myspace.com, or having volunteered in an abortion clinic. And his slow but relentless reworking of the Curia (the central institutions of the Church, what most people call the Vatican) sends the same message. However, his reforms are not one-way. In the American Church, the last few years of John Paul II had seen the promotion of some forceful, aggressively orthodox, couldn't-care-less bishops - Vasa, Chaput, Burke, Olmsted, Finn, etc. - who were and are backed by a groundswell of opinion from the pews. This was a necessary movement of reform in a very corrupt Church, but a year and a half ago - before Pope John Paul died - I wrote a couple of articles in my blog about "the ugly side of the cleansing of the Church", highlighting some reactionary, know-nothing, even heretical aspects in such movements as Roman Catholic Faithful and magazines such as the New Oxford Review. It seems that Pope Benedict has felt the same whiff of Judge Lynch about the reform movement in the American Church, and his last two high-profile episcopal selections have been moderates, Niederauer at San Francisco and Wuerl at Washington DC. These are men who have historically managed a considerable ability as teachers and catechists with a tendency to live and let live in dealing with the outer world. This, however, is true of the American church alone, so far as I can see: in the Canadian and Austrian Churches, where demoralization and drift still rule, the Pope has delivered real scorchers of addresses, and promoted people who were unmixedly reformers. He has also paired, in recent initiatives, such persons as the lax Cardinal Ouellet of Quebec with the fierce and passionate Cardinal Caffarra of Bologna, perhaps in the hope that they may be reminded of what makes a priest.

What I said in the previous paragraph has to do, of course, with Cardinal Pell's concern about Fascist movements in Europe and elsewhere. Whatever happens, the Church cannot be seen to avoid Scylla only to fall straight into Charybdis. And Fascist movemends do exist - in the last local electons, not only did the BNP get 11 out of 53 seats in a London borough, but they might have swept the board if only they had been able to present more candidates. The reason why they could not is that every other person willing to stand had dozens of convictions for violent crimes; which tells you at a glance what kind of party the BNP really is. And the Vatican gets to hear this sort of thing - hear them, in fact, rather faster than secular politicians, who are fond of deceiving themselves.

Besides, the Vatican's policy cannot be reduced merely to orthodoxy vs. laxity, or, to put it another way, conservatism vs. liberalism. There are many choices in tactics and strategy that cannot be directly related to this dichotomy, and yet are important - and incidentally important in the matter of Islam. In particular, Pope Benedict seems to have placed an altogether new emphasis on the Catholic Churches of India, China and East Asia, promoting Cardinal Dias of Bombay and a Sri Lankan bishop, making the bishop of Hong Kong a cardinal, and taking a high-profile and rather risky position in the face of Chinese encroachments on Vatican prerogative. This shows a belief in the importance of these Churches, which have long traditions of self-support, are in some cases very ancient, and in nearly every case have a high degree of intellectual prestige in their host societies (Indian and Pakistani top families tend to send their children to Catholic schools, and Catholic universities are among the top academic institutions even in Japan). They also show a tremendous amount of self-confidence; South Korea (which has recently become the second Asian country with a Christian majority) is probably the only country in the world to send missionaries straight into the Dar-al-Islam, without disguise or compromise (although those missionaries are Protestant) and the Philipines are producing so many priests and religious that they must count as a reservoir of strength for the whole universal Church. Philipino priests are now manning parishes from Italy to the USA. This indicates, indirectly, a desire to assert the position of the Church in non-Christian countries, and a none too disguised missionary impulse, coming back to life after thirty years of Political Correctness and stifling multi-culturalism; scarcely, to be sure, to the pleasure of Muslim missionaries, who contend with the Church for souls from China to the streets of London.

Cardinal Pell's interview reflects all these features of current Church policy. If it does not necessarily please everyone on this forum for every reason, we have to remember that the Church makes up its own mind, and - as Pope John XXIII - is not the chaplain of anyone.

Thank you Paolo for an extremely well informed post. There is an english speaking Catholic church in Paris and most of those attending seem to be Indian or Philipino. I wish he could reign in his socialist priests, such as the Bishop Blondel of Tournon, who sold a piece of land for a handful of €uros to the city knowing that the city was looking to provide land for a mosque. http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=9445
Bishop Blondel admits to have received a great many messages provoked by 'facist' internet sites such France-Echos. He has ignored them all.

A high profile downwards move for such priests is surely possible within the Vatican. I recall that a Monsignor Michael Fitz-something-or-rather didn't get his expected cardinal's cape because of his exruciating dhimmitude. Could the Pope not move this Bishop to some parish where he doesn't so much damage?

I also notice that Tony Blair is due to meet Pope Benedict soon. I hope that something comes of this. As much as I hate they way he has presided over the dhimmification of Britain he is by far the strongest leader of any party in the UK. I am glad that he appears to be backing down on his promise to hand over the leadership to Gordon Brown.

It would also be a miracle if he were to drop Tarik Ramadan as his advisor on muslim affairs straight after.

Just one example a of high profile change in direction would be wonderful

Cardinal Pell writes: " Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for fear-reaching renovation is severely limited."

Cardinal Pell has an insightful understanding of Islam as compared to other Cardinals.

Islam as a tolerant religion?

No way.

Renovation?

Not likely.

Islamic purists reminisce gleefully about the pre-9/11 days of Taliban controlled Afghanistan as "the shining city on the hill" ....to borrow from former President Reagan's words.

Cardinal Pell stated: "[The rise of Islam] might in fact be working against all this. It might be regenerating in people a sense that we need something to believe in."

Many cardinals and church leaders hold this view.

They believe that the rise of Islam in Europe is not all bad and will mysteriously save the soul of Europe.

Some even go further and say that Islam is some kind of mysterious "divine intervention" by the hand of God which is intended to confront the spirit of secularism that is currently marginalizing the role of religion and Christian morals in European civil society.

This belief system is based upon the premise that the outcome of contact with devout Muslims on the streets of Europe will result in a religious flame in the soul of the non-practicing European Christian and make him desire for the transcendent-God. The conversion to the transcendent will make him develop a moral life that is based on grounded spiritual principles, bedrocks of European society.

This infectious approach towards the religious smorgasbord of Europe is based upon the philosophical principle of relativism that reduces religion to a set of moral observances.

It is not based on solid theology about the true nature of the transcendent which develops when one is freely predisposed to inwardly seek after the truth not because of external influences like devout Muslims building sharia into European society.

Cardinal Pell writes: " Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for fear-reaching renovation is severely limited."

Cardinal Pell has an insightful understanding of Islam as compared to other Cardinals.

Islam as a tolerant religion?

No way.

Renovation?

Not likely.

Islamic purists reminisce gleefully about the pre-9/11 days of Taliban controlled Afghanistan as "the shining city on the hill" ....to borrow from former President Reagan's words.

Cardinal Pell stated: "[The rise of Islam] might in fact be working against all this. It might be regenerating in people a sense that we need something to believe in."

Many cardinals and church leaders hold this view.

They believe that the rise of Islam in Europe is not all bad and will mysteriously save the soul of Europe.

Some even go further and say that Islam is some kind of mysterious "divine intervention" by the hand of God which is intended to confront the spirit of secularism that is currently marginalizing the role of religion and Christian morals in European civil society.

This belief system is based upon the premise that the outcome of contact with devout Muslims on the streets of Europe will result in a religious flame in the soul of the non-practicing European Christian and make him desire for the transcendent-God. The conversion to the transcendent will make him develop a moral life that is based on grounded spiritual principles, bedrocks of European society.

This infectious approach towards the religious smorgasbord of Europe is based upon the philosophical principle of relativism that reduces religion to a set of moral observances.

It is not based on solid theology about the true nature of the transcendent which develops when one is freely predisposed to inwardly seek after the truth not because of external influences like devout Muslims building sharia into European society.

Cardinal Pell writes: " Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for fear-reaching renovation is severely limited."

Cardinal Pell has an insightful understanding of Islam as compared to other Cardinals.

Islam as a tolerant religion?

No way.

Renovation?

Not likely.

Islamic purists reminisce gleefully about the pre-9/11 days of Taliban controlled Afghanistan as "the shining city on the hill" ....to borrow from former President Reagan's words.

Cardinal Pell stated: "[The rise of Islam] might in fact be working against all this. It might be regenerating in people a sense that we need something to believe in."

Many cardinals and church leaders hold this view.

They believe that the rise of Islam in Europe is not all bad and will mysteriously save the soul of Europe.

Some even go further and say that Islam is some kind of mysterious "divine intervention" by the hand of God which is intended to confront the spirit of secularism that is currently marginalizing the role of religion and Christian morals in European civil society.

This belief system is based upon the premise that the outcome of contact with devout Muslims on the streets of Europe will result in a religious flame in the soul of the non-practicing European Christian and make him desire for the transcendent-God. The conversion to the transcendent will make him develop a moral life that is based on grounded spiritual principles, bedrocks of European society.

This infectious approach towards the religious smorgasbord is based upon the philosophical principle of relativism that reduces religion to a set of moral observances.

It is not based on solid theology about the true nature of the transcendent which develops when one is freely predisposed to inwardly seek after the truth not because of external influences like devout Muslims building sharia into European society.

I beg your pardon for the repeats ( 3 of the same posting.......I can't believe it!)

Something has gone terribly wrong here.

Of course...I only meant to send it once.

Paolo: Thanks for you insights about the church. You are an astutue observer of the church.

My guess is that Paolo is more of a participant than an observer.

Jumps right into it pellmell.

Good for him!!!

*blushes*...err sorry couldn't resist it

Tom: not really, a mere man in the pew. The idea of becoming a priest has been in my mind of late, but there is a small problem - a priest swears obedience, and that is a big problem for yours truly, a constitutional square peg for every round hole there is.

Zathras: first, I doubt you were the first to think of it, and, second, I feel pretty sure His Eminence would be pleased.

Paolo...I hardly expected priority but succumbed to temptation :)

I actually sent an email of congratulations(over his first pointed views) to Cardinal Pell and most unexpectedly received an answer.
As I was anticatholic for decades but now am a simple ally,I was gratified to find that he is not only "on the ball" but also nonpatronising and I really am starting to believe the rumours about him being groomed.

Do not underestimnate your value here as someone who obviously has his very aware finger on the RC pulse whether layman or not.

Cardinal Pell is wonderful, his orthodoxy in doctrine, and his opinions are interesting, like a catholic, I think that he must be the cardinal for the relations with islam.
But like many other things, for solutioning the problem, the solution is in Western, not in islam, break relationship with countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran must be our priority.
And many other things, but Western hates itself too much, sadly.

But that very quickly translates into attachment into a certain kind of state. To reverse the question, is Islam without at least a notional striving towards an Islamic state conceivable?

Pell: We don’t yet know.

How is it, dear Father, that, after 1,384 years of constant striving to establish an Islamic state, and praying five times a day for the same, that we still don’t know?

Moral dysfunction in the form of denial is my guess.

Paolo wrote: " The idea of becoming a priest has been in my mind of late, but there is a small problem - a priest swears obedience, and that is a big problem for yours truly, a constitutional square peg for every round hole there is. "

Paolo: The church is in desperate need of more church leaders like Cardinal Pell. It sounds like you may have a calling to priesthood. As you probably know, the vocation to priesthood is a calling from God.

I spent some time in the seminary discerning a vocation to the priesthood. I gave up my career for over 1 year to exclusively focus on discerning whether I truly was called to become a priest. While in the seminary, I received an answer.

I realized that I was not called to become a priest. I felt the call to marriage and family life. But the experience in the seminary was a wonderful time of spiritual development for me. I have great respect for the vocation to priesthood and continue to practice my Catholic faith. I am now engaged to a woman who is a Catholic convert.

Pay attention to the what is in your mind about the priesthood. If you simply can't get the thought of priesthood out of your head and/or if the thought of becoming a priest fills you with peace......then it could be a tell tale sign that Christ does want you to follow after him and join a seminary to more closely discern a vocation to priesthood.

Christ will help you with the obedience issue if he gives you a call to priesthood. Christ gives the necessary grace for men to become priests to those whom he calls to priesthood. I can clearly tell that you have some intellectual gifts to become a priest. I appreciate your insightful posts on this website about issues related to the church.

I disagree. It's much simpler (Occam's razor) to observe that the threat of the Saracen hordes will cause at least some Euroweenies to shake off secularism and remember what the foundation of Western Civilization really is. Even the most confirmed atheist European will react when the barbarians blow up a cathedral. Europe is threatened as at no time since Jan Sobieski broke the siege of Vienna, and external threats concentrate the mind wonderfully.

Dammit. For some reason I didn't include what I was responding to:

"This belief system is based upon the premise that the outcome of contact with devout Muslims on the streets of Europe will result in a religious flame in the soul of the non-practicing European Christian and make him desire for the transcendent-God. The conversion to the transcendent will make him develop a moral life that is based on grounded spiritual principles, bedrocks of European society."

Please clean up on aisle 'saint_george'

Greetings from Sydney, home archdiocese of Cardinal Pell. Ain't he grand !

Really Paolo?:

"in the last local electons, not only did the BNP get 11 out of 53 seats in a London borough, but they might have swept the board if only they had been able to present more candidates. The reason why they could not is that every other person willing to stand had dozens of convictions for violent crimes; which tells you at a glance what kind of party the BNP really is."

Yes, the kind of party that's trying to protect the British way of life against Mohommedan hordes. As for your assertion that every other candidate willing to stand "had dozens of convictions for violent crimes" sounds to me like a bald faced lie from the same people who convince you that islam is the ROP.

How do you know "every other candidate" who offered to stand? Please furnish me with the name of every candidate who was willing to stand. I would also appreciate details of their alleged "Violent crimes", date of arrest/s, actual charges brought against culprit and sentence meted out to said culprits. This is required for "every other person willing to stand", and who all had, according to you, "dozens of convictions for violent crimes;"

"which tells you at a glance what kind of party the BNP really is." Or, which tells you at a glance what kind of gullible person you really are.

Paolo, in an otherwise well-reasoned post, resorting to this type meaningless aphorism, doen't do you any good.

Sebastien said:

"As much as I hate they way he has presided over the dhimmification of Britain he is by far the strongest leader of any party in the UK."

Heaven help us all!

The cardinalate and individual cardinals are creations of the papacy and the pope. Whom the pope makes a cardinal, the pope can also unmake. For instance, Nicolò Paolo Andrea Coscia, an 18th-century Italian prelate, was made a cardinal in 1725 and deprived of the cardinalate, as well as excommunicated, in 1733. He was later reconciled with the Church, and he eventually was restored to the cardinalate in 1742.

A cardinal may also resign, and an individual proposed for the cardinalate may also decline.

http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/cardinals.htm