“This is...a great step forward for exercising our religious rights." When will non-Muslims be accorded their "religious rights" in Saudi Arabia? From Reuters, with thanks to Sugiero:
Friday June 02, 2006, ATHENS: Immigrant and human rights groups on Thursday welcomed a Greek parliament decision that paves the way for building the first mosque in the predominantly Orthodox Christian country since the 19th century.The head of the Pakistani community in Greece said work on securing a license to build a new mosque would start soon after the assembly effectively revoked a veto power held by the Church of Greece over construction of non-Orthodox places of worship.
“This is wonderful news for about 50,000 Pakistanis in Greece and it is a great step forward for exercising our religious rights,” said Pakistani Community President Javied Aslmam. “We will immediately start procedures to get all the necessary licences to start building a very large mosque,” he said.
The Greeks bore the brunt of the Jihad and Dhimmitude for a millenium. Let's hope their people are awake to the danger Islam presents. At the very least this large mosque should have a large amount of surveillance.
Here is an interesting article, circa 2001, about immigrants in Greece, legal and illegal (PDF warning):
www.mmo.gr/pdf/library/Greece/grckaimigracija.pdf
Muslims are not the only migrant community. It seems there is not a serious demographic threat in Greece right now, though fertility of the native population is low, 1.34 per the CIA world factbook:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gr.html#People
The Muslim population is ~1.3%. If the Greeks are clear-eyed about the consequences of Islam taking root, the nation has a bright future.
The Greek government has over many decades allowed itself to become more and more pro-Arab and anti-Israel, a shallow machiavellism designed to increase Muslim support for Greece in confrontations with Turkey. It hasn't worked. Nor, when Makarios tried the same thing in Cyprus, did his pandering to Arabs increase their support or make the Greeks on Cyprus safer. Just look at what happened.
Only appeals to, and support for, pan-Infidel solidarity will help in Cyprus or elsewhere. This mosque is a terrible idea.
And even more terrible is the plan, by that idiotic mayor of Colle di Val d'Elsa, in the heart of Tuscany, to plant, right between Siena and Florence, a mosque. A mosque which is opposed by all of the Italians in town, but which that stubborn mayor insists must be built.
If the plans for that mosque cannot be undone, one hopes that the local residents, supported by all kinds of people in and outside Italy, will follow Oriana Fallaci's suggestion that demonstrators physically prevent that mosque from ever rising, an alien and threatening presence, where it does not and cannot possibly belong -- the middle of the Tuscan countryside.
The Greeks too, will regret the day they allowed an Islamic armory to be constructed on their soil. Look for the trouble to begin quite soon in that nation.
At least the reality of Islam is becoming apparent to so many people, and the Greeks have not gotten to the point that the French or Dutch are at, with 5-10% of the population of Muslim background, and many of them supporting the dissilution of modern civilization by any means. I earnestly hope that they can avoid that fate by holding the line. This Mosque is not a good sign, but the tide turns inside the minds of people, not in architecture, and it seems to be turning in Europe. May the Greeks learn from their own history, as well as the troubles in western Europe. Is there a Greek Jihadwatch or its equivalent, or is English widely spoken there so that the majority of the population can participate in the anti-Jihad movement online?
Greece is being very short sighted. The Leftists seem to be ignorant of the fact that Moslems will cast them aside once they have achieved their objectives. Does the Left now think that women should have no rights and that Anti-Semetism is legitimate? The mosque is just the first demand.
Greece joins the Europe in its slide to Arabdom.. Everybody let's applaud this sagelike move by the Greek government to strengthen Islam's hold on Europe. How long will it be before Greeks in Arab countries get to pray in an Eastern Orthodox Church?
Hint: don't hold your breath!
Muslims don't have to fight---Allah is delivering infidels into their hands without the Muslims having to lift so much as a finger, through the infidels' own stupidity and short-sightedness.
In principle, this is a wonderful gesture by Greece. No truly secular country can stop a person from practising his faith. So the question
--When will non-Muslims be accorded their "religious rights" in Saudi Arabia?--
isnt the right one here. Whether or not Saudi Arabia or the Middle East allows freedom to other religions has got nothing to do with this.
Of course, I understand your concern about the peculiar nature of Islam and the violence that the Quran instigates everywhere. But bear in mind that if you consider the intent of the Greek authorities, it is in the right direction. Now, lets all hope that they dont start hurting themselves ten years down the line by bowing down to Islamic narrow mindedness.
A mosque on Greek lands is an abomination.
But the story here is like everywhere else in Europe: regular folk strongly oppose it; it's the government and the idiotic elites that want it.
I read this story as more about Muslim immigrants being allowed to exercise their religious rights in Greece than it is about Greece allowing freedom of worship. So, I think the question 'When will non-Muslims be accorded their "religious rights" in Saudi Arabia?' has everything to do with this story.
I think the non-Muslim world needs to tell Muslims if they want to demand their rights to worship allah they need to recognize the rights of non-Muslims to worship their God. And if they are not willing to do so, then they should expect the same treatment.
It's one thing for Greece to be more open and remove the veto power of the orthodox church over other houses of worship. But do that with the recognition that such a gesture doesn't apply to mosques. Use the Turkish threat, as well as the lack of international Islamic support over Cyprus, as the pretext to recognize that Islam is a threat to Greece. Athens had it right when they supported Serbia against Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims. They need to remove their anti-Israeli and anti-US blinders, and recognize the threat that faces them; otherwise, they might as well be Islamo-Christians.
They have a great pre-Islamic (and for that matter pre-Christian) civilization to be proud of. They should remember those who worked on destroying it - like the Turks at the Parthenon.
"Is there a Greek Jihadwatch or its equivalent..."
-- from a posting above
No. But there should be. All it takes is a few determined native speakers. They can put things up of their own; they can translate what they find here. That's all it takes.
Re: “We will immediately start procedures to get all the necessary licences to start building a very large mosque,” he said."
Saudi money perhaps?
Good comment, "Infidel." Your thoughts cannot be repeated enough in all corners of the world. Islam is a one-way street..their way. Islam encourages, bribes and sometimes threatens people into joining their religion. But, for those wishing to leave Islam, the consequences are violence and death. Yes, the mosques and Islamic schools can be built throughout the West. Yet, let the Copts in Egypt ask permission to fix a bathroom in a church, then the permit can take 10 years and many bribes and even then, the permission is probably denied. This is slightly OT, but shouldn't a certain potion of USAID money to countries like Egypt or Pakistan or Iraq be allocated for minority religions, to encourage small business developments, schools, community centers, all ways to support minorities in Islamic countries. And, if the Islamic countries don't like the way the free money is allocated, maybe they should refuse it.
Infidel Pride, I agree with you in the regard that Greece has shown anti U.S. and anti Isreali sentiments over the years, but if you examine the reasons why you will find that it has very much been a two way street on that issue.
The U.S. has and still does favour Turkey in all aspects. Turkey does not have an economy of any kind which can support a modern military, yet thanks to the U.S. its armed to the teeth and even has an F-16 factory in it. I don't believe any other U.S. ally in the world has been given that gift. Isreal on the other hand has been very closely aligned with Turkey also,and is one of the countries on this planet that refuses to recognize the Turkish Genocide of Armenians and later Greeks in Smyrna. Ironically this was the blue print Hitler used for his Genocide on the Jews.
Why doesn't the U.S. tell Turkey to stop its aggressive behaviour towards the Greeks with their daily incursions by fighter jets into Greek territory. This happens every single day, and there have been many instances where Turkish troops have raised Turkish flags on the Greek Island of Imea, as they continually try to claim more and more territory in the Agean.
You are right though that Greece, Israel and the U.S. need to wake up and see that a realignment of friendships needs to take place if we are going to effectively deal with this scourge on our earth.
As for the Greek parliament allowing this aborition to take place of allowing a mosque in Athens is nothing short of treason. The Turkish Gov't does not allow the Agia Sophia to act as a Church and the Patriarch of Constantinople is not allowed a Theological School there. It should have been straight and simple, lift the restrictions on our Church in Turkey and we will allow you to worship in Greece, until then beat it! This also brings me to the point that Greece and Greeks feel secluded from the rest of the western world, where are the high minded intellectuals of Europe and North America on the issue of the Agia Sophia? Would everyone be this quiet if the Vatican was overrun by Muslims and allowed only to act as a museum? I hope not, but the evidence to the contrary is a little discerning.
One final point as a Greek myself this is nothing short of a dagger in my heart seeing this happen. But keep your eyes open as these things are done as I suspect because the Greek Gov't may believe there are no allies out there looking out for us. Serbia is a perfect example, look at what Bill Clinton did to that country and watch as the U.S. led coalition there is still talking about seperating Kosovo from Serbia. These things for some unbelievable reason always seem to go in favour of the Jihadist states, and the only ones to blame for that is us in the Western world for allowing it.
“This is wonderful news for about 50,000 Pakistanis in Greece and it is a great step forward for exercising our religious rights,” said Pakistani Community President Javied Aslmam.
From the article above.
How the hell did 50.000 Pakistanis get into Greece?
sheik yer'mami posted : How the hell did 50,000 Pakistanis get into Greece?
Were probably on their way to Britain but the money to pay smugglers ran out.
One has to ask what happened to the Greeks that played hard ball with the Turks and kicked them out. the ones that converted mosques to museums and movie theatres. The greeks who tore down every minaret from the mosques left behind. I am not advocating no relgious freedom but some tit for tat behaviour is needed when fighting these animals.
It does seem that Turkey is preparing for an invasion some time soon. If you read the latest news Turkey has stepped up its provocations in the Aegean in the past weeks. I can expect them to try to seize one of the greek islands of its coast. I hope the west backs up Greece and they fight on their own terms. If turkey attacks somewhere don't defend but go on the offensive. Along the Greek border in Edirne is the largest mosque in turkey. If the greeks want Agia sophia back they should play hard ball. It wont happen of course. If anything the US will continue supporting Turkey.
maybe some unscrupulous Greek real estate person will sell them land on an old chemical waste dump.
sheik yer'mami,
50K Pakis sounds like big trouble!
Pissed off Canadian you are absolutely right. My brother and I are absolutely convinced that Turkey is going to invade Greece sometime very soon. They know that they don't have a hope in hell to enter the EU, so why not act as you normally would and provoke an attack.
Hey you're not my brother are you? He said the exact thing to me about the mosque in Edirne. Greece really needs to act like a bunch of bastards with these scumbags, it's the only language they understand.
Unfortunately once again you're right, if they play tit for tat, they'll wind up with a U.S. led coalition ala Yugoslavia style and that'll be all she wrote.
I can only hope that the EU will wake up and actually use its joint military power to support its ally. Yeah it's only a pipe dream I know.
Niv
What are 50,000 Pakistanis doing in Greece. Invading perhaps. Is there anywhere this swarm of parasites doesn't go? I know Robert doesn't like name calling, but parasite is apt, in that Islam is an organism that produces nothing and feeds off the blood of superior cultures. Everything ever achieved in Islam can be traced to the cultures I attached itself too and bled.
Back to the topic at hand, if Christians and other infidels cannot settle deep in the homeland of Dar al Islam. Why can the slaves of Mordor settle in the geographic and spiritual homelands of Infidels? Greece is almost scared or should be to all Westerners. This alien presence in no way should be tolerated, ditto for in Tuscany. Why don't the Catholic and Orthodox populations rise up againest these vile desecrations and acts of aggresion? Mosque in are a disfigurement to infidel cities in the same way syphillis lessions disfigure the Human body. This is no building of a mere building but a provocative act of war, part of the lesser jihad.
Hopefully neither mosque will be built, and if they are, someday they become churches, a big mosue would make a fine Orthodox Cathedral, after all Islamic architecture is all Byzantine derived anyways. Oh the thought of Eastern wall of the mosque sporting a massive iconostatis brings joy. So much shirk and idolatry. Let Christos Anesti replace Allah Akbar.
By the way I agree with the other posters, Turkey will attack Greece and the Western Caliphate I mean Ameristan will back Turkey, the poor Greeks have no oil and are Christian.If it ever became advantagous for Western pols, they would all take Shaddah and dump Jesus like they do their first wives. Hopefully Russia can rise as a great Orthodox power and foster some sort of Pan-Slavic, Pan Orthodox movement.
Under the Turks, the Greek Church was told to be the political entity in charge of the Christians. The trials and tribulations that befall any political establishment also befell the Greek Church. While there were many good Christians serving in the Church, there were also those interested less honorable things. Of the leaders of the Church, the patriarchs and bishops, the Turks had a great deal of control over who was chosen to lead. If anyone got out of line or the Turks wanted more money, the Turks would auction off his position to the highest bidder. Additionally, the Turks often levied high fees on clergy for them to keep their positions. These fees often were paid by collections gathered from the Christian people (in addition to all the other taxes they paid). Both the constant meddling of the Turks in Church affairs and Church leaders often interested in politics and easy living rather than spiritual matters led quite a few Greeks to be apathetic toward the clergy and the Church.
The Orthodox Church is the one of the main conservative faculties in Greece. Those who want to change traditional Greek culture often do so by attacking the Greek Church.
While the Greek people may tolerate this mosque to be built, Greeks and their Slavic neighbors are the least likely people to allow the propagation of the myth of Islamic tolerance.
Thinking about a huge mosque in Greece (paid for by Saudis) with crosses atop the crescents, iconography painted over the Quranic verses, and ringing with "Christis anesti ek nekron, thanato thanaton patisas!" is entertaining. Perhaps there will soon be a day when in the East churches with minarets is the style.
...the assembly effectively revoked a veto power held by the Church of Greece over construction of non-Orthodox places of worship...
Maybe things will get a little easier for the Greek Evangelicals, too. It seems to me that Greece has laws about religious organizations and their ability to function similar to those of other ex-Ottoman lands; only this time, they favors the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Please don´t allow the mosque.
"The Greeks too, will regret the day they allowed an Islamic armory to be constructed on their soil. Look for the trouble to begin quite soon in that nation." Prickzilla
So right you are P'zilla. The "mosque" will be a superb Forward Operations Base for the Islamic soldiers (aren't they all soldiers in Mo's army from birth?). In it they can stock weapons and war supplies right under the noses of their victims. No self-defeating non-Muslim government would dare search inside a mosque. In Iraq and elsewhere they are used as firebases, but non-Muslims are too politically afraid to fire back at mosques (even though the Geneva Convention says firing from a religious building erases its protected status). And of course they will use it to spread hatred propoganda and collect money to fund their war effort. Really very clever when you think about it--forward bases with immunity right in the heart of the intended victim.
Mosque plans bring controversy to Tuscan town
Mayor backs Islamic center's construction, but residents are 'very afraid'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12927212/
Special Report - Islam in Europe
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11369578/
""Muslim population in Greece is about 140,000 - 1% of the population
Outside of Thrace there are no official mosques or clerics. There is widespread opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church to the building of a planned Islamic cultural center in Athens.""
See Islam in Europe - stats
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12757599/
"Is there a Greek Jihadwatch or its equivalent..."
-- from a posting above
"No. But there should be. All it takes is a few determined native speakers. They can put things up of their own; they can translate what they find here. That's all it takes."
Don't despair. There is resistance in Greece. See: http://phylaxblog.com/
what are 50,000 pakistanis doing in Greece? Greece is already at threat from albanians and Turkey taking the Aegean islands why is it letting more dangerous people in
The Greek government has over many decades allowed itself to become more and more pro-Arab and anti-Israel, a shallow machiavellism designed to increase Muslim support for Greece in confrontations with Turkey. It hasn't worked. Nor, when Makarios tried the same thing in Cyprus, did his pandering to Arabs increase their support or make the Greeks on Cyprus safer. Just look at what happened.
What an amazingly silly, inaccurate and shallow comment. It betrays a lack of knoweldge about regional politics.
Greece is neither pro-Arab nor anti-Israel outside the context of Isreal's incredible and slavish support of Turkey. One could indeed more easily say that Israel is rabidly anti-Greek and and pro-Turkish -- and this explains the resulting policies and attitudes in Greece
After all Greece does not a have a full defense alignment with the the Arab countries as Israel has had with the rabidly militaristic, genocide denying, aggressive Turkey. For certain Syrian air force pilots do not use Greece as a training base flying practice sorties against Israel. Whereas one cannot say the same about Israeli pilots in Turkey and particpating in exercises not just in eastern Turkey but in western Turkey as a direct security challenge to Greece.
Greece is not the genocide denier and apologist as Israel has taken the lead - in Washington and internationally -- in denying the Armenenian genocide and mass killings of Greeks in what Isralei newspapers call a shameless and deeply corrupt policy -- especially given the Holocaust.
As far as Cypruss is concerned, even with the problems, the Greek policy has actually net gained from what anyone expected 25 years ago. It is part of the EU will remain so, and Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots have lost in the overall picture of where they expected to be. Just read the Turkish press, it is full of articles bemoaning how they have bocthed the Cyprus issue and how widely it harmed them.
Lastly your comment really shows a lack of udnerstanding on what happened with the Mosque issue per se. You seem to have not followed it one whit, and are simply plugging the issue into you own poor thumbnail of "Greece."
The fact is Greece has come under whithering attack from all quarters, not just the myriad of human rights groups, but also the INCLUDING the US government for not expediting the buliding of this mosque. You and I and everyone reading this blog know why: because the US is sucking up to the Saudis in, as you would say, a "a shallow machiavellism designed to increase Muslim support for" the US. No different than the general short sighted polices in the Balkans.
There are plenty of people who are strong supporters of Israel, but who can't take seriously the argument you made vis a vis Greece. the relationships are complex, and as I said your critique of Greece could EASILY be turned to a critque of a few idiotic and ironic Israeli or US policies as well.