While Rita Kumar says this will promote integration, the preferential treatment will likely only arouse resentment among others. "Immigrant children should go first," from Aftenposten, with thanks to seafarious:
Immigrant children should be allowed to go to the front of the waiting lists for day care spots, and should get free care if their parents are strapped for cash.While failed promises to provide day care for all remains a sensitive political issue, Rita Kumar, government adviser on immigration and integration, adds a new element to the debate, newspaper Dagsavisen reports.
Kumar is the head of KIM (The Contact Committee for Immigrants and the Authorities) a government-appointed advisory body made up of representatives from immigrant organizations, political parties and relevant governmental agencies and ministries.
Plenty of documentation exists indicating that early integration and language education is decisive for how immigrant children manage in school and society, while Norway's education system has had poor reviews in this respect from the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development).
"If we are going to do something about this different treatment of ethnic Norwegian and immigrant children is absolutely necessary," Kumar told Dagsavisen.
Kumar suggests that immigrant children get priority treatment and that this advantage should apply to the first five years after a family has first come to Norway. Day care should be free if parents have little or no income.
Kumar's suggestion has support from educators.
"We would like to have free core time for all children from the age of two. Unfortunately this seems a long way off, therefore we believe that it is a good idea to offer free day care to minority language children as a first step in this direction," Thorbjørn Hafslund, leader of Oslo's day care division of the Union of Education Norway, told the newspaper.
Hafslund, like Kumar, is tired of arguments that all immigrants must learn Norwegian and that it is their parents' job to teach them Norwegian language and culture.
Tired of them?
Sure she is. The Norwegian government is sick and tired of the Norwegian people and, as that Brecht verse said which you quoted a few days back, has decided to create a new one. Now the issue is whether the unfortunately brainwashed Norwegians - the lack of self-awareness among people I know on the Net borders on the farcical - will ever wake up before they find they have been not only dispossessed but ghettoized in their own country.
But it isn't free. It's paid for by indigenous Norwegians who work and pay taxes. The taxes they pay are high, so they, being responsible, limit the size of their families to what they can afford, perhaps one child or none. The immigrants meanwhile - and it is Muslims we are talking about - reproduce with impunity at the taxpayers' expense.
l say take away the kids from their parents, raise them up to be Christians, and if parents dont like it, send them back home. govenments go around saying free health , free school , free,, but in reality, its the taxes that pay for all this, liberal mindset is to brain wash people. you give up your freedom by allowing the government to interfer with your life. if immigrant families cannot afford their children, sterilize them, and or take their children away.
Maybe Scandinavia should hire Stalinists to run the bureaus responsible for assimilating migrants.
Lulu: you really do not get it. "Raise [the kids] to be Christians"? The Norwegian government, and all its ideological accomplices on the European continent, want to destroy or at least incapacitate Christianity. That is the main reason why they are encouraging millions of aliens to enter - so as to be able to turn around and say "you see, this is a multi-cultural country, Christianity has no claim on it". That is the name of the game. The current Norwegian leadership would not only not take any kids away from Muslims, they would probably take them from Christian families in order to bring them up atheist.
Greetings Robert
I'm unsure why this is on Dhimmi watch. Norway and many nations have legal obligations under the United Nations Convention on Rights of the Child (UNCROC). The children of immigrants often are those of high need. Because there is a great need, some would argue that some immigrant children should be placed first, because they are the most vulnerable. There are also obligations under the Internalional Covenant of Economic, Social and Cultural Rights to protect children. So I'm not sure why this is here.
Yes, some Immigrants are Muslim and they have children. But most Muslim immigrants in Norway tend to be poor, and their children vulnerable. How is it an act of dhimmitude to put children first? I understand there are issues of integration here in terms of language. Of course all Immigrants should be required to learn the language.
What aggregate net contribution has the Muslim immigrant population made to the Norwegian economy? If it is negative, then the Norwegians have only themselves in their own hubris to blame for assuming the "white man's burden". The inevitable end to this path is warfare in the streets of Norway. This is not a metaphor. When I say warfare I mean small arms, rockets, mortars, beheading videos, suicide bombers in cafes and restaurants, mass murder of Norwegian children in schools, VIEDs, the whole lot.
The same applies to any country in Europe. The Muslim populations are a violence prone social pathogen and it is attaining critical mass in certain countries, e.g., France and Holland.
The world is at war.
Peoples...
Understand that these are Allah's chosen clan. When they are well... their prayers carry the whole of humankind with them.
I know this as I have such a close relationship with the local Aadil hospital here in Lahore, taking & bringing my hubby back & forth from it. In my Dua, I ask only for good for the doctors & nurses at the Aadil.
Remember muslim childrens well being is good for your medical staff ...and will be seen favourably by Allah. Also what better way to show some integration.
As for "being a white man's burden"...so what!
You can afford it ....you have dominated & shaped the world in wierd ways....a bit of payback of your immense wealth to Allah's chosen....it is as it should be.
Convert...and you can enjoy the fruits of being at the front of the queue.
peace, health & jilbabs....you know the rest
Rita Kumar can go where day care is free. Noone is holding a gun to her head. Thank you.
Maybe Scandinavia should hire Stalinists to run the bureaus responsible for assimilating migrants.
Hyman, the confused souls in Scandia prefer a softer, blonder, form of Marxism called Secular Progressivism (aka Liberalism).
Like sniffing glue, this form of Marxism inexorably leads to confused sex, sticky situations, moral depravity, and suicide-by-gasp.
MO HIJABS MO SELF BACK STABS MO SCOWLING CRABS MO KORANIC METH LABS MO
Gasp! Lookit there, the chillun’ of Burkha Belle have to wait in line along with those filthy blue eyed blond haired kids. Is there no justice in Dar al Harb?
Dial the Social Welfare Dept. and let them bring in the Multicultural Task Force to start kicking butt.
I agree ALL children should be provided for, and fairly.
However, why the disinction? Is everyone in Norway wealthy or is low income, (if any) merely the domain of Norwegian muslims?
As is happeneing in my country and many others, a lot of muslims will not work at all. They have more than one wife, which is illegal, and many, many children. Guess who pays for all this?
Yep, the local tax payers!! (Most of whom are not muslims but hard workers).
The drain on welfare these people exert is growing daily. Not only do many not contribute with taxes, they take more in welfare than anyone else. This is a fact and it is happening all over the world.
Hence I think this Norwegian policy is yet another example of dhimmitude. Give in and accomodate whenever possible!! Leave the hard working natives to foot the bill.
It is known that this is a way muslims excell at taking over countries. They have declared a jihad by outbreeding and the evidence abounds.
If these muslim children are to be helped, this will not do it. Daycare and schools can only do so much. It is the home that compliments the upbringing - at least 50%.
I want to know why these people immigrate to non-muslim countries, saying they are escaping cruel countries, but bring all their baggage and old ways with them. If they really dislike their previous homes, then prove this by assimilating and being a good citizen who makes worthwhile contributions to the community, and who pays taxes as well, instead of sponging of the host nation and plotting its demise.
Peoples...
Understand that these are Allah's chosen clan. When they are well... their prayers carry the whole of humankind with them.
Remember muslim childrens well being is good for your medical staff ...and will be seen favourably by Allah. Also what better way to show some integration.
As for "being a white man's burden"...so what!
You can afford it ....you have dominated & shaped the world in wierd ways....a bit of payback of your immense wealth to Allah's chosen....it is as it should be.
Posted by: Naseem at June 3, 2006 09:28 AM
Naseem's lying, cheating, illitrate, blood-thirsty clan wants to lay their kids a white man's burden. Well, W H Y??? Isn't it enough that Naseem's hypocritical, barbarian, blood-thirsty 'Muslim Brothers' are sheltered under the benevolence of 'White Man'? And what has Naseem's thankless clan given the noble white man in return? destruction, death, theft, rape and murder. NICE TRY!!! As for your Muslim kids, white man knows better than raise snakes with Jihadi poison in their fangs. NO! Thank you.
Naseem:
"As for "being a white man's burden"...so what!
You can afford it ....you have dominated & shaped the world in wierd ways....a bit of payback of your immense wealth to Allah's chosen....it is as it should be.
Convert...and you can enjoy the fruits of being at the front of the queue."
We can afford it? Like you have thorough knowledge of western economies???
Get your saudi cousins to pay - they make a billion dollars a day,,and counting.
"immense wealth",,,you must mean the oil producing countries for sure!!!
You are not "chosen". The Jewish people are the chosen of God.
As for converting,,you are kidding right?
There are no fruits in islam: it is submission, death and destruction. No freedom, no fun nothing but a black hole of lies!
Burkhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
Burkhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."
Mo was a white man and he died his hair red, the crap you can find in their so-called holy books about this pedophile prophet is quite something.
It sounds like the Dutch are beginning to have had enough:
Dutch poll on Muslims
Half say they "dislike" Muslims. One wonders why it is still only half.
Of course, the Dutch Government will end up losing the brightest and best of its citizens - already the number of emigrants is larger than the number of immigrants. The beginning of the end of the Netherlands. And all out of sheer blindness and hubris and left-liberal prejudice and ignorance. All just as Mohammed Rasoel predicted back in the early nineties:
The Downfall of the Netherlands: Land of the Naive Fools
I used to feel really sorry for the Scandanavians. However I am starting to think more and more they only have themselves to blame for the mess they are in. I don't know if you can help people who don't want or think they need help.
Its their own fault for voting in liberal elitest politicians who come up with these insane policies, for regecting Christianity, for their anti-USA and anti-Israel views.
Sorry, just venting a little. I really wish they would turn things around.... I just wonder if they are capable of doing it....
Yojimbo: I couldn't get past the first five paragraphs of "The Downfall of the Netherlands:" What a horrible story. Rage, cruelty to people and animals, abuse, violence...yes, that does sum up much of Islam quite well. I hope that the author found some kind of redemption and true peace away from Islam. As for the free day care story for Muslims in Norway, it makes no sense unless one reads the beginning of the story, "The Downfall of the Netherlands..." The Muslim children can be removed, if even for a short time, to a facility where they can escape the violence and cruelty of the homes where they live. No wonder that Naseem, who seems to come from Pakistan, writes comments that make no sense. She has most likely endured years of violence and abuse too and, literally, her brain does not function normally. Of course, the larger question for Norway is,"Why do you allow these violent, angry people in your beautiful country?"
I agree with the headline only.
Naseem, who seems to come from Pakistan, writes comments that make no sense. She has most likely endured years of violence and abuse too and, literally, her brain does not function normally.
Posted by: maryrose at June 3, 2006 12:11 PM
Yes, Naseem reminds me of lost-souls of clans like Jim Jones, whose members are brain-washed to lie, cheat, steal and above all, and submit to their master OR be beaten black and blue... and whose only hope is to LEAVE the clan.
Alert...Naseem looks at the world through bars that she cannot see as islamic indoctrination has made them invisible to her. Thus she is brave but blind and cannot make comprehensible analyses from the restricted viewpoint.
Yojimbo..I had not seen that before (Mohammed Rasoel)...very depressing and probbaly quite accurate.
However we sit here and pathetically pacifise.
(ok its not in the dictionary but...)
If Norwegians feel that govt policy is unfair they are free to throw the rascals out and change the policy - it is not written in stone.
I daresay that Norwegians extend such generosity to immigrants because of that wonderful warm feeling of moral rtectitude that derives...they put their culture ar risk because that culture is worth less to them than their towering self-esteem: like drug addicts who are willing to give up a life just for that wonderful rush...
BTW, we see the same phenomena with leftist Jews - Chomsky, Norman Friedman, Anthony Lewis and the whole op-ed page at the NYTimes, etc . They give up Israel for the grandiosity of being universalists - no petty ethnic identity for them: they are above all that. That feeling of superiority over the luftmenschen Jews is absolutely delicious...
Curse them all.
These jihadi children, especially jihadi babies are EXTREMELY dangerous- thats why we have to kill em like we did in Haditha
If only Muslim children acted like European Christians act when they move to other countries- they er.. learn the language er... respect the culture and er.. dress just like the natives.
That is why all europeans in Gulf States speak fluent Arabic and wear dishdashas while all white people in Africa speak African languages not the languages from their homeland and follow local African religions not Christianity all White Americans/Austalians etc dress JUST like nativbe americans and aborigines.
(King) Harald V and (Rita) Kumar Go to White Castle.
Good movie.
As a political conservative, I am no fan of Norwegian "nanny state" welfarism. But that was Norway's choice long before Muslims started showing up there in large numbers.
So given that reality, I do give Rita Kumar credit for recognizing that some means must be found to expose young Muslim children to playing and interacting peacefully with non-Muslim children, and maybe even getting some exposure to non-Muslim culture at an early age. Especially showing young Muslim boys that they have to treat young non-Muslim girls with respect as equals. Because young Muslim children aren't getting any of that now. In too much of Europe they are growing up in segregated Muslim neighborhoods, being indoctrinated into cultural paranoia and misogyny by their Muslim neighbors, Muslim clerics, and Muslim immigrant parents, and thus perpetuating a culture of being a "breed apart" that is helping to destabilize Europe.
We've seen news reports from German high schools as to how these Muslim kids have grown up. By the time they are teenagers they have been indoctrinated into becoming true subversives, unwilling to treat any non-Muslims (especially women) with respect, behavior that goes beyond juvenile delinquency into an actual desire to destroy their host country.
In my post of a few moments ago I had harsh words for 'Norman Friedman'. Somehow I conflated Norman Finklestein (an idiot of the first order) and Tom Friedman (a mendacious twit)...actually, Norman Friedman is my cousin - (sorry for that, old friend) and a fine fellow.
Naseem, come in, sit down, have a nice ham sandwich and some wine and let's talk. I'm sorry your rulers have stolen the wealth we paid them for oil in your countries and have made women less than equal with men in your society, and you are bitter about that, but that is your problem. If they kick these filthy little beggars out and their families out with them, will your own Umma not take care of them? Well of course not, they aren't doing it now, are they? But then your whole cult is nothing but a pack of lies and old women's tales. We understand you are deceived and lied to, that you think a black rock is a God named Allah. It is no wonder he does not answer your prayers, after he is only a rock.
Steven L.
Wishful thinking on your part. Watch out for the moment the kids' parents start asking for separate schools/programs/curriculae that follow Islamic teachings. Separate nursery rooms, separate classrooms, separate playrooms, separate everything. Plus hijabbed teachers. And so on.
It's troubling to see that people with easy access to information like you remain so clueless as to the nature of the Beast, which demands segregation, separation, distinction, demarcation, alienation from non-Muslims, and finally subjection of them.
"Maybe Scandinavia should hire Stalinists to run the bureaus responsible for assimilating migrants." Hyman Roth
LOL...
You're a wise and considerate young man. But I think that's what they thought they were doing all along -- only thing was, there's a difference between a genuine Stalinist, and a neo-Stalinist.
Stalin didn't believe in any of it. Neo-Stalinists truly do believe. We see the results of it all over Europe, Canada, and to a far lesser extent the USA.
I don't like to see an issue of children become politicalized.
But I absolutely reject preferential treatment towards immigrants (largely Muslim children.
This is a subtle form of discrimination against non-immigrant children ( native Norwegians ).
I don't believe Haidon's post about immigrant children should be placed first, because they are the most vulnerable.
Muslim immigrants frequently portray themselves as victims - wherever they go- and use any sympathy that they may gain to their own advantage for preferential treatment status.
It looks like the Norwegian politicians have fallen for their tactics.
Steven L.
P.S.
I'm really curious about your thinking.
Have you got any data, any raw numbers, any statistics and analysis to back up your assumption/conclusion that Muslim parents would allow their kids to be integrated in Norwegian society that way, or that the parents have any notion of what Norwegian society is, other than an economic haven/provider of welfare?
Eagerly waiting for your answer.
Steven L. I have to agree with Ovid above. This is just another charade -- another way the malign Muslims will cynically exploit the "system" and reinforce their victimology, their Muslim-ness, and their Islamic supposition that we, as inferiors, owe them something.
We face a perfect storm with such an Islamic presence in the West. They exploit our wealth, our decency, our trust, and our system to further their breeding project and to protect and enrich their Islamic enclaves. They are playing us like violins. It's time we wise up.
I daresay that Norwegians extend such generosity to immigrants because of that wonderful warm feeling of moral rectitude that derives...they put their culture at risk because that culture is worth less to them than their towering self-esteem: like drug addicts who are willing to give up a life just for that wonderful rush...
Rat on!
This phenomenon you describe, what one might term Idealistic Idiocy, is enabled by the appearance of mass media, and the emergence of real-time mass consciousness it brought into being. Marshall McLuhan, you must be spinning in your whiskey-soaked Canadian grave, cuz Fictive Reality has gone spinning outta control before even you imagined.
Combine that mass consciousness with the always heart-tugging emotions of guilt and pity, and you got yourself moral rectitude, and next, voila!, you got yourself some real tasty Idealistic Idiocy. We salute you, David Broder and Tim Russert. Good job.
Now, continuing the recipe of this witch’s brew, stir in a pesto of 1 billion Koran-waving Moslems always strutting and gesticulating and mugging for the cameras and, voila!, you got yourself not the rebirth of the Dark Ages, but the onset of the Black Ages.
This new epoch, the Black Ages, will be a bleak period which will refuse to let itself end, except perhaps in an internecine explosion that leaves too much poison laying about to even sustain the half-alive humanoids who call theemselves Moslems.
Please clean up on aisle 'saint_george'
Naseem, come in, sit down, have a nice ham sandwich and some wine and let's talk. I'm sorry your rulers have stolen the wealth we paid them for oil in your countries and have made women less than equal with men in your society,
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at June 3, 2006 02:14 PM
Why go far? Look at what Arafat did to Palestinians.. in the name of Freedom and Jihad, he took lives of countless Muslim men, women and children.. while secretly robbing the same people of their aid.. by the billions.. yes, billions of aid!! yes, Aid!! And Arafat was the symbol of theit struggle. Hard to say who/which was more phoney... the struggle or the symbol! Oh.. and he died of aids (although Muslims will deny that too, lik the holocast)!
There you have a symbol if Islamic struggle, a two timing, forked-tounged thief!
My new motto:
"Beware the do-gooders."
Wishful thinking on your part. Watch out for the moment the kids' parents start asking for separate schools/programs/curriculae that follow Islamic teachings. Separate nursery rooms, separate classrooms, separate playrooms, separate everything. Plus hijabbed teachers. And so on.
Posted by: ovidius_naso at June 3, 2006 02:37 PM
Good Point!! Islamic Dawa begins with foolish Infedel pity. Like I said earlier Muslim kids are Jihadi snakes with poisionous fangs, waiting to bite the hands that feed them. Ofcourse, like sly snakes they are, they won't tell any of that untill they can push schools and authorities with their numbers. Soon, the pity-Dawa takes overwhelming proportions, making the foolish infedel wonder where he/she went wrong but by then, it is too late. Again, good point!
A related matter is how leftists prefer foreigners, even headchopper jihadists, to their own countrymen. Thomas Sowell has described the situation in the US where illegal aliens are given more rights and services than citizens because socialists have effectively lobbied for these benefits.
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2006/05/25/198692.html
maryrose wrote "Yojimbo: I couldn't get past the first five paragraphs of "The Downfall of the Netherlands:" What a horrible story. Rage, cruelty to people and animals, abuse, violence...yes, that does sum up much of Islam quite well. "
Yes mary, this is not unusual but the normal acts of muslims, cruelity to animals, humans, and even to themselves. this is so normal that they think that our acts of charity and kindness are acts of fools and misguided people. if this is what the west wants this is what they will get unless islam as stopped.
Yojimbo
Thanks v much for the link.
Jonathan:
"I don't believe Haidon's post about immigrant children should be placed first, because they are the most vulnerable. "
And any one else who doesn't know,,here is the explanation:
Haidon (this is his original name) is a convert to islam. He also has an islamic name.
Does this help understand his comment?
to all newcomers on the blog:
Nasseem is a well-known entity on this blog.
my personal assumption is that (s)he is not a pakistani woman in Lahore, but possibly a group of young arab poofters in the emirates.
Even todays post does not look like being worded by the original Naseem.
I think there is still a need to clarify terms:
An invader is someone who comes to occupy land without submitting to the laws and customs of that land.
An immigrant is someone who hope that one day they, or their children, will be assimilated into the culture. (cf. Wikipedia: Assimilation (3): Cultural assimilation, the process whereby a minority group gradually adopts the customs and attitudes of the prevailing culture.) If someone is truly an immigrant who hopes to join the society and aid the common good, I'm not against giving them some help along the way.
A transient person or displaced person is someone who is living in an alien culture because they have been displaced by violence, natural disasters and the like. They hope to return from whence they came. They may not assimilate, but they mean no harm. I'm not against giving them some help along the way.
If they are freeloaders who are interested in pillaging the country, disrespectful of laws and customs, then they are invaders, not immigrants, and should be treated as such.
These jihadi children, especially jihadi babies are EXTREMELY dangerous- thats why we have to kill em like we did in Haditha
Now be sure and get all worked up over Haditha. The facts aren't in yet. I think we can give examples of muslim atrocities to match anything you can come up with.
Besides isn't the attitude supposed to be "INSHALLAH"?
saint_george: "yes this a dissapointingly low score for the ever "tolerant" Dutch - its far lower than the number who disliked Jews during WWII (when the highest collaboartion with Nazis was in Holland)..."
good point - I agree with you that the Dutch are falling a bit short in the hate department lately. For instance, they've clearly got a ways to go to catch up with the Muslims in the Jew hatred category - a category that they were apparently excelling at (as you point out so eloquently), until the Muslims came along and literally blew the Dutch out of the water in that competition. It's really hard to compete with the Muslims in general though in the "hate" competitions so hopefully you'll cut the Dutch a little slack on that score. They just need a bit more practice to get up to speed with the Muslims.
Steven L Muslims segregate in the west out of CHOICE not coercion.
As for breaking the indoctrination of young western born Muslims, it is quite easy to do so with probably 95% efficacy; OUTLAW madrassas, destroy the mosques and ban the Koran.
Naturally no one will have the courage to do this until their backs are agaisnt the wall and it is too late.
No amount of sociological, psychological or pedagogical agonising will make the slightest bit of difference.
Look at the Hitler Youth and German youth after ONLT 12 years of Nazi rule and indoctrination, NOT 1400 years.
There are NO problems with what to do.
Having the courage to do it is what is lacling.
Gramfan
You wrote:
Haidon (this is his original name) is a convert to islam. He also has an islamic name.
Does this help understand his comment?
Gramfam, I'm sorry that you took such psychological discomfort in my defending of children (all children not just Muslim children). The reason for my posting is because I am an attorney who works in matters of international law, including rights of the child. Because I happen to be Muslim, my opinion is worth less? If you have the ability to read, re-read my post. I acknowledged the issue of integration.
My point is, children must come first. Their nationality is irrelevant. Again, Norway is a signatory to UNCROC and UNESCR. Yes, even Muslim children need to be looked after. Again, there may be a greater need for Muslim children because they come from poor families. Besides, inorporating Muslim children into typically non-Muslim day careprogrammes could help the child's socialisation, having exposure to non-Muslim children could help their outlook. Muslim children are not animals...
Keep in mind, that a large portion of immigrants are not Muslim who enter Norway. Gramfan, you personal attack is unwarranted. And by the way, my Muslim name is Hamza Mohammed. I rarely use it.
Carolyn 2
You wrote
Now be sure and get all worked up over Haditha. The facts aren't in yet. I think we can give examples of muslim atrocities to match anything you can come up with.
I agree. At least in the Western world there are accountability mechanisms to punish atrocities such as Haditha (if in fact it did occur). There is no such accountability in Muslim countries or society in general. If it did occur, I have every faith that the US will punish those responsible. Will Muslims punish Zarqawi, Hanniyeh or Nasrullah? There hasnt even been one legal pronouncement (fatwa) against them. This shows a tellingly wide disparity between the societies.
DavidE:
you have raised some good points. I agree that most probably muslim women who are at-home mums probably wouldn't use daycare.
Haidon:
"Gramfam, I'm sorry that you took such psychological discomfort in my defending of children (all children not just Muslim children). "
You assume too much. I am not "psychologically discomforted". It is merely a way of indicating where you are coming from.
I have taught children for years and brought up my own so I know how precious children are.
My problem with you is this:
bad enough being born a muslim, yet you go out of your way to convert to islam.
I cannot understand this. I have read a lot about the Koran and also Ali Sina at faith freedom website.
Years ago islam didn't bother me at all, but after 9/11 it sure did!
I find it hard to comprehend why you would follow a man like Mohammed. He appears to have no worthwhile qualities whatever.
I would be so ashamed if I were a muslim.
Public beheadings, terrorism, genital mulitlation,,etc etc. How do you do it?
I don't subscribe to any organised religion however I can see merit in following someone who has done positive things, and I haven't seen any evidence of your prophet doing this.
Please also spare us the Crusade bullshit: Islam had begun their takeover of Europe and in the 1600's they, the Europeans, fought them off. So you see the Crusades were in a way, justified although I know they slaughtered many.
Yes,, I agree a lot of bad things have been done in the name of God across all religions, but I have never heard of a Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist suicide bomber. Even the Japanes kamikazes went for military targets so don't compare them.
I cannot understand why a mother would want her child to die like this - it is beyond me.
(I should have taken more note of that old movie "The Vikings"!!)
If suicide is so great why aren't more muslims just taking their own lives, and also why are the Bali bombers and Moussaui appealling?
I don't get it Haidon, I just don't. And if you are a moderate muslim and trying to build bridges all I can say is "good luck,mate!!"
Hi Gramfan
You wrote:
You assume too much. I am not "psychologically discomforted". It is merely a way of indicating where you are coming from.
But the problem is you don't know where I am coming from. Please do not make such assumptions. I did not take issue with this posting because I am a jihadist or seek the installation of the Calpihate (I certainly am not and do not). I expressed my support of children, and called for an understanding that teh needs of all children come first. It has nothing to do with me being Muslim. In fact, in my view, Muslim immigrants should intergrate and embrace Western values or leave.
You wrote:
find it hard to comprehend why you would follow a man like Mohammed. He appears to have no worthwhile qualities whatever.
I would be so ashamed if I were a muslim.
Public beheadings, terrorism, genital mulitlation,,etc etc. How do you do it
I do not follow Muhammad. I am not required to. I am ashamed of the crimes and terrorism committed by Muslim. I do not follow Sunnah, because the Qur'an does not explicitly require me to. I am morally revulsed by some of the acts committed by Muhammad, including the sexual assalut on Aisha and other senseles acts of violence.
You wrote:
Please also spare us the Crusade bullshit: Islam had begun their takeover of Europe and in the 1600's they, the Europeans, fought them off. So you see the Crusades were in a way, justified although I know they slaughtered many.
Yes,, I agree a lot of bad things have been done in the name of God across all religions, but I have never heard of a Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist suicide bomber. Even the Japanes kamikazes went for military targets so don't compare them
I do not, nor have I ever made the equivocation arguments you make. Jihad terrorism and the Crusades are incomparble. At any rate, the teachings of the New Testament and the Gospels in particular do not authorise the killing of women children and innocent people. Terrorism is the antithesis of Jesus's teachings under the NT, that is abundantly clear. The Crusades did kill some innocents, but were not based on actual scripture (because tthey could not be justified under Christianity). Robert's book on the Crusades clarified alot of my misunderstandings.
You wrote:
My problem with you is this:
bad enough being born a muslim, yet you go out of your way to convert to islam.
I cannot understand this. I have read a lot about the Koran and also Ali Sina at faith freedom website.
You should have no problem with me. I support Ali Sina and his work. I have also dealth with him personally. WHile I do not agree with him all of the time, he provides valuable moral support for apostates and helps give them a voice. This work is invaluable.
The personal attacks arent necessary. I deserve the same respect as any other poster.
Haidon,
thanks for your post.(sorry for the late reply) Really,I appreciate your comments as when I first read them a while ago I knew you weren't "garden variety" muslim.
I didn't think I had made any personal attacks,,anyway,,,not intended.
OK so you see the problems "across the board" with radical islam.
My suggestion is this:
What can we do about it all in realistic terms?
Is there anything we can do? Can we help you in anyway?
Please be specific.
I would really feel a lot better if I knew not every muslim is like osama bin laden.(Obviously you are not.)
I think most of us share this feeling.
Your thoughts?
Thanks Gramfan
In my view, non-Muslims need to place real pressure on Muslims, and at the same time support (where possible) to support moderate Muslims (not that it is easy to find them). But moderate Muslims continue to fail miserably. They are never able to answer Robert's challenge. The group I just resigned from the Free Muslim Coalition is of the same sort.
Robert and JW needs to continue its work and try to get wider influence. Islamist Watch which will be commencing shortly under the tutelage of Dr Daniel Pipes may also help this effort. But from my perspective the challenge is helping to get Muslims to "buy in". That does not mean non-Muslims should mute their criticism of Islam, but does mean they should try hard and seek Muslim help out where possible. Daniel Pipes has said over and over again, Islam can be what Muslims want to make of it.
But in summary, immense pressure must be placed on Muslims to change, we won't do it ourselves. I hope that is obvious. You and others can and should continue unrelenting pressure. But, I think some work should be done to find and work with moderate Muslims (please note that I am not saying that Islam in itself is moderate), because it is not and we all know this.
Most Muslims are on their face inncocous. But still, I find many Muslims who find ways of being passive jihadists by morally supporting terrorism against Israel, et al. This is just as bad. For my part, as I have resigned as the legal advisor of FMC, I have chosen a new path, to work directly with the NZ Muslim comunity where I live. It is a risky proposition, but I hope to succeed. But I can't agree with some of my colleages here that all Muslims are equally evil. Sure, all Muslims should be scrutinised, but we are still human. Those of us who do not advocate for jihad, or terrorism deserve respect as human beings and should be viewed (potentially) as part of the solution. But we do not do enough, I agree. And it is difficult to discern.
It is sad that Rita Kumar, who appears to be of a Hindu background, is in the position of advocacy for Muslim welfare payments and stressing the state's responsibility to Muslims over others, and not declaring the responsibility that Muslims have to the state.
I wonder what percentage of Hindu immigrants to Norway are dependent on welfare payments, or arrive in that country expecting hand-outs. My guess would be that it would be less than the average. I might even make a more bold guess, and say that Hindu welfare dependancy in Norway is miniscule.
So why the need for Muslim immigrants to be given priveliged status over other Norwegians for welfare benefits?
regards
Cisoux
Haidon...any supporter of Ali Sina is not only welcome here with open arms but is ESSENTIAL to the future of mankind as if the jihadists win technology will slide and worldwide famine will kill billions(the west DOES feed the world..many forget that).
So thank you for the detailed statement of your POV and your itinery and Good Luck!! as many of your muslim compatriates will not appreciate you and you MUST beware.
Just send the children and their parents back to where they came from. Let an Islamic country pay their bills, educate and feed them. Whi is it that Christian nations are willing to do that which Islamic nations are not?
Haidon:
I'm with Zathras.
I think many of us see your point and that you are putting yourself out on a dangerous limb.
Interaction and negotiation are good, but the latter seems almost impossible in the global political arena.
I know moderate mulsims are hard to find and if they exist and come forth they could endanger themselves.
Outside pressure is going to be hard.Every day another incident happens to frighten people and cause more distrust in the west.
The Iraqi'a are suffering more from fellow muslims that many (muslims)would care to acknowedge. Doesn't bode well for us kafirs!
Inside pressure would be better.
I think you should work with women rather than men. It is rather like "the hand that rocks the cradle". Muslim women should be educated and liberated and therefore infuence their children and their husbands.
I also wish you good luck.It won't be easy.
If ever there's a sign that Europe is going down the tubes, this is it. Dr Ali Sina gave Europe less than 100 years. Perhaps he was being a tad optimistic. Well, I'm trying to be optimistic myself and give Europe 30-40 years. If I was being pessimistic or maybe realistic, I'd give it 20-30 years, when today's newborn Western European babies - 35% of which are Muslim in France, Belgium and Holland, reach adulthood and have kids of their own. Europe is committing suicide, and the PC brigade are the bearers of the razors. One wrist has already been slashed, now it seems as if the other arm is being amputated without tourniquet to stem the blood flow. If the ghosts of the Holocaust victims are looking down on Europe, I wouldn't know if they're feeling pity, or if they're feeling as if vengeance is being wreaked on that same Continent that sent them to their deaths without any pangs of conscience whatsoever 60-odd years ago. How ironic that those who sent the Jews to the gas chambers, or at least betrayed them, have descendants who might yet discover what it was like to be a Jew during the Holocaust era - that they themselves might be trembling in a Europe which has become an imitation of Waziristan Province - and all thanks to the 1960s onwards multi-culti PC brigade who threw open the gates to the enemy lurking outside.
Me thinks this is "much ado about nothing."
This is only a temporary problem that will be cured in time as soon as a few mosques can be built to set up some madrassas. Then the muslim kiddies can be sent off to receive an education more specifically tailored to their own needs. A few good wahabai imams will be happy to guide the curriculum.
Norway's rounding up over four thousand Jews during world war two and turning them over to the Nazis should help ease any potential Muslim/Jewish conflict that could come up.
An old French saying concerning something about being hoist on your own petard comes to mind.
Haidon...any supporter of Ali Sina is not only welcome here with open arms but is ESSENTIAL to the future of mankind as if the jihadists win technology will slide and worldwide famine will kill billions(the west DOES feed the world..many forget that).
Posted by: Zathras at June 4, 2006 07:19 AM
I join Zarthas and Gramfan in welcoming you to JW. Given the barbaric trait of jihadists, we at JW are concerned about your welbeing but am sure Robert, Huge and all on JW will do all we can but like Zarthas put it, a word of caution is in order. I would add that if ever you feel cornered, don't hesitate to renounce Islam. Leaving a blood-thirsty, barbaric cult is never a bad thing, but then, you already know that. Again, welcome to JW.
"I know moderate mulsims are hard to find and if they exist and come forth they could endanger themselves." -Haidon
SO? That should be YOUR problem, not one which should also imperil us!
This posters constructs are sugar coated POISON.
He's the one who chose to jettison his entire identity and surrender as a slave to Allah. It's HIS "religion" which views the world in this dark Manichean way -- the way we see Islam deploying now in Toronto, London, NY, Madrid --- everywhere it rears its ugly head.
This is what they're taught, despite all the signs that Islam is the cause of all their woes...
Islam/Muslims = Good. All others = Bad.
However you want to smear the lipstick on that pig, Islam remains Islam. And, like a salami, if you cut it open anywhere and look inside, the texture and consistency is roughly indistinguishable from every other part.
For those naive enough to buy into Haidon's smooth appeal, ask yourselves this question:
What is the logical extension of "Haidon's" plan to work with "moderates" within Islam for its reform?
He doesn't have a plan. He doesn't even suggest this would be effective. Yet you stupidly buy into his illogic. Notice how sanguine the appeals for our patience and tolerance. Don't you recognize the black cynicism behind it? He glibly encourages you to become more involved in his insanity, and some of you abase yourselves and are encouraged by such falseness.
How did Islam's insanity ever become our "fight" to resolve? Why should we put ourselves on the line to salvage Haidon's utterly broken belief system? Don't you wonder about characters such as Haidon?
Where's his logic for abandoning his culture of origin, and abandoning his given name, in exchange for what he seems to admit is a broken ideology? Doesn't such a mind make you wonder in the slightest? Don't you wonder about the motives of such a person luring you further into the funhouse? His appeal makes no logical sense, unless it's understood for the cynical ploy that it is.
If his proposals have no chance in hell, why does he make them?
Evidence for the answer is right here in this thread.Some here have bought into Haidon's nefarious lie, and will work to help him "reform" Islam. Such persons are fools.
Haidon is another tool in Islam's arsenal against us. While you pathetically look on in pity for Haidon, or vainly allow yourselves to be pursuaded that he represents salvation, his beloved Islam slithers on, continues munching.
Haidon's deft exploitation of your human decency and foolishness is just another example of Jihadi Jujitsu -- He's using your own strengths of faith in humanity and hopefulness and weakness of those same traits to bring you utterly to your knees.
Only fools would continue to lap up his dangerous swill.
Haidon
Thanks for updating us on the fact that you are no longer part of the Free Muslims coalition. I won't press you for any details, since I assume that you and FMC parted ways on terms that they wouldn't want disclosed. I disagree with your original assertion in this thread that immigrant children should have greater rights than native children in any country, and as an immigrant, I know there's no hypocrisy involved here.
However, while you are probably a wonderful person, the problem with good people like you switching to the ranks of Islam is that it serves to perpetuate the myth that Islam is a force for good. Unlike Naseem and other Muslim posters who have surfaced here, you don't deny the problems with Islam. So how does your staying in Islam help it reform? The best way to "reform" Islam, to the extent that it's possible, is to shrink its numbers through reverse dawa, so that it gets below that magical 1 billion mark, and finally down to the point where their "leadership" decides that if they don't act soon, they'd be extinct.
Members of the Islamic clergy may be open to reforming Islam if they see their ranks shrinking. They aren't going to do it if they see it swelling (since that indicates success), and as such, by being Muslim, you actually undermine what you are trying.
To give you an example, in India, the Parsis had a rule that anyone who marries outside the community automatically ceases to be a Zoroastrian (a rule that isn't found in Iran's Zoroastrian community). This has seen an alarming decrease in their numbers, and recently, there were moves by members of that community to change that. I've not followed what came of it, but it illustrates my point - people will only try to change something when they perceive that it isn't working, and in the case of religions, it's illustrated by a decrease, rather than an increase in numbers.
I wish you luck in your work with the NZ Muslim community. Hopefully, they see things like you do, but I wouldn't count on it.
Haidon, Did you convert to Islam?
"Daniel Pipes has said over and over again, Islam can be what Muslims want to make of it."
-- from a posting by Haidon, "moderate Muslim," above
No. Islam can't. By its very name, and because of some of those associated with it (such as Stephen Schwartz) this "Islamist Watch" is likely to mislead the only audience that matters --unwary Infidels. All sorts of foundation money, of course, as well as that from individual donors, is likely to be lavished upon "Islamist Watch," and this support both disturbs and infuriates. From the point of view of those who are convinced that the essential message of "Islamist Watch" is a delusive and self-deluding one, and who, in not deviating from uttering unpleasant and certainly unappealing truths, find that they can barely eke out an existence, while others, who have misconstrued and mis-articulated the problem, have proven remarkably adept not only at raking in enormous sums from well-paid lectures (were I to do the math here, the sums would amaze you) and incessant dunning for further donations, and are tirelessly engaged in still more empire building which will bring in still further sums.
This grates.
In short, Civilization should go.
Whenever I complain, my maid says "Pobrecito", shakes her head sorrowfully, and looks despairingly at the ground. And then we both crack up.
Maybe the poster above should write a book.
JSLA
I don't normally like responding to people who get personal with me, but I will try.
You wrote
For those naive enough to buy into Haidon's smooth appeal, ask yourselves this question:
What is the logical extension of "Haidon's" plan to work with "moderates" within Islam for its reform?
He doesn't have a plan. He doesn't even suggest this would be effective. Yet you stupidly buy into his illogic. Notice how sanguine the appeals for our patience and tolerance. Don't you recognize the black cynicism behind it? He glibly encourages you to become more involved in his insanity, and some of you abase yourselves and are encouraged by such falseness.
I'm sorry for not having a comprehensive plan. I'm not alone by the way. I do have some plans however, and some bright, like minded people. I don't give a sh*t if people believe or disbelieve, I want to be judged by my actions, not my words. I have a good track record in this area. I never said I have all of the answers. But at least I am making an effort. ANd yes, I am cognisant that I have never been able to answer Robert's challenge comprehensively.
You make some pretty heavy accusations against me, without proof. My only crime is being Muslim. And that is crime enough in your eyes. I'm sure you would like to see all of us behind bars, or even dead.
You wrote
Haidon is another tool in Islam's arsenal against us. While you pathetically look on in pity for Haidon, or vainly allow yourselves to be pursuaded that he represents salvation, his beloved Islam slithers on, continues munching.
Haidon's deft exploitation of your human decency and foolishness is just another example of Jihadi Jujitsu -- He's using your own strengths of faith in humanity and hopefulness and weakness of those same traits to bring you utterly to your knees
You are way off base. I am no ones tool. I have fought jihadists head on while you sit behind a computer. I have confronted imam's in Muslim countries to my own peril, about the underpinnings of Islam, and extermism. I have challenged them wiyth counter arguments. You simply don't know me. You cannot make judgments on people you dont know. I make no judgments on you. I am not a Muslims's Muslim.
Hugh. Let's agree to disagree on this one. THere is no resolution to this argument. For me to accept you argument, means that I would have to renounce Islam. I am not prepared to do so. I have to believe there are elements worth saving. WHy do I have hope? My interaction with the community in NZ gives me hope. Islamic leaders, have renounced the penalty of apostasy and thrown out religioius leaders who preach jihad and terror. While its only the beginning and we still have to begin responding to hard questions, we are getting there. I wonder what you would say if this community proved you wrong Hugh.
I did'nt realise that Schwartz was involved in Islamist Watch, if that ios the case I withdraw my optimism. I know they are still looking for a director. Please do not tell me that he is the director.
Alert
Yes I did convert, back in June 2001.
I do not follow Muhammad. I am not required to. I am ashamed of the crimes and terrorism committed by Muslim. I do not follow Sunnah, because the Qur'an does not explicitly require me to. I am morally revulsed by some of the acts committed by Muhammad, including the sexual assalut on Aisha and other senseles acts of violence. ~Haidon
And yet his muslim name is Hamza Mohammed.
Exactly, Borg. He admonishes me not to judge him by his words, but by his actions. Yet he presents such a hopelessly muddled presentation with his words, that one would do well to be circumspect of his actions as well.
Sorry Haidon: Don't mean to be mean. I am a decent person to those who wish me well. As for not fighting? Don't be silly. I do it nearly every day by writing. Writing writing writing.
I write to Ambassadors. I write to Editors. I write to anchormen, and publishers, and Senators and Congressmen. I tell them calmly and politely (usually) about your blood stained religion. That's a good fight, sir.
As for wanting most or all of you dead? Don't put words in my mouth -- I haven't done that with you! I would like to see your religion broken on the slag heap of bad ideas where it belongs. I would like to see justice visited on all the heads of all the haters and spewers and liars who inhabit Islam. That is no crime!
There's a repugnant strain of victimhood which runs through your every post. Perhaps this is the key which makes sense out of your non-sensical adherence to Islam -- I'll never know. But that victimology is a red flag for anyone clued in to its significance. It's part of the mechanism of the fractured Muslim mindset -- the pathology which permits you to unburden yourselves for your mistakes, shortcomings, and crimes. My problem with you is that we non-believers in your broken cult become the recipients for the necrosis you eject from yourselves.
I ask again: Why should ANY of this Muslim disease be our problem?
That too is another question in the long list which you cannot answer. I'll cast my lot with the far kinder Alert who says: "Leaving a blood-thirsty, barbaric cult is never a bad thing."
How true, how true. You won't find any redemption in that dark place, Haidon. It's full of lies, and on some level you know this absolutely.
The name Hamza Mohammed was "given" to me upon my conversion at Al Azhar and placed on my certificate (seriously, they give you a certificate). I rarely use it for the exact reason you mention. I find using the name hypocritical. I stopped using it formally in 2003. I am not a hypocrite.
JSLA. I'm glad you write and place pressure where ot needs to be palced. I support it and even endorse it. Victimhood? I am merely defending those Muslims who are decent, not the repugnant Jihadist sponsopring Muslims, or those who preach hatred against women and non-Muslims. If there is any sense of vitcimhood, the peprtrators are not you or others who criticise Islam but those Monsters within Islam.
You wrote:
I would like to see justice visited on all the heads of all the haters and spewers and liars who inhabit Islam. That is no crime!
That is not a crime. But I am not among them. I do not spew hatred. I argue for honesty and solutions, to my detriment. A couple of weeks ago, my wife was assaulted by a member of the Muslim community because of things I said. SO do not count me amongst the enemy. I have suffered the loss of terrorism, I lost two close friends from Morgan Stanley on 9/11 and a friend in London last year. I have also witnessed terrorism in Sudan and Israel firsthand. I will admit I have not always been "moderate". I was lucky enough to surround myself with Muslims and non-Muslims who were able to point me in the right direction. Working in Sudan in 2003, and seeing those animals celebrate 9/11 was enough to turn me around, and stop feeling sympathy for the Palestinian murderers.
I also work with apostates. I have helped establish networks for them in Australasia. I also advocated heavliy for Abdul Rahman and several others in Afghanistan. I have also been working on advocating the case of Mohammed Sultan in Kandahar, who converted from Islam to Christianity. Guess what. He has been charged with apostasy and will in all likelihood be put to death. After all that BS with Rahman, and the Chief Proecutor is stil prosecuting. I have also been considered an apostate by some Muslim.
If I sound like I am playing the victim I apologise. I get frustrated because I am a supported for JW and every time I make a posting it always degenerates into a personal attack. For instance read my initial posting. My posting did not deserve the attacks, I was merely reflecting an opinion.
I want to be judged by my actions, not my words. I have a good track record in this area. I never said I have all of the answers. But at least I am making an effort.
Yes I did convert, back in June 2001.
Posted by: Haidon at June 4, 2006 08:01 PM
Haidon,
You want to be judged by your action and you converted to ISLAM? What part of ISLAM even let's you think, much less act? (except to chop off a limb or lead you on to destruction with a morbid lure of 72 virgins (sic)?). Did you think about that? And if you are sincerely looking for an 'action based faith', you would have chosen 'Karma theory' of Hinduism. Hinduism is founded on 'actions' i.e. Karma. In addition, Hinduism encourages Knowledge, none of which (Actions or Knowledge) is offered by ISLAM. Anyway, Hinduism or not, ISLAM is the last place to go for action and knowledge.
Sorry Haidon, something just doesn't add up. Looks like you are looking for the right thing (action based faith) but took a wrong turn towards ISLAM, unless you are the 'Al-taquiyya' face of ISLAM, the deception which can be found in, and only in, ISLAM.
Dear Haidon,
What a tough spot you are in. I do indeed sympathize. June 2001 is a long, long time ago it seems now.
My prayers are with you.
Haidon, I think that if you seriously want to be considered a "moderate" by those in the West (and to see yourself in that light), you must reject the commands to war, violence and military jihad in the quran. If you cannot do that because you believe that all the verses in the quran are "eternally valid", then you have a serious problem. You must also deal with the fact that Jesus Christ said that God is His Father, and that He prophesied His death and resurrection on the cross in agreement with prophecy in scripture. The quran says He did not die on the cross and that "Allah has no sons", thereby making Jesus Christ a liar. If Jesus Christ is a liar, then he is a false prophet and Islam is wrong for calling him one.
Jews the self chosen of YHVH
Muslims the self chose of Allah
Christians the Elect of Jesus.
There is only room in the universe for one chosen, not two or three or more..
How about Man creates his god in his own image, uses it as a ventriloquist dummy and then chooses himself above all others.
Sorry folks no winners in the battle for god, and in the end even the "winner" loses.. as his society collapses from entropy and stagnation.
Naseem is Jihad Watchers comic relief, reading her stuff is like watching slapstick, always good for a chuckle. Silly, inane stuff is the backbone of comedy.