Anger, yes, but neither CAIR nor anyone else can establish that anything he said is false. In fact, Muslim leaders confirm in this story that what he said is true -- even Muhammad's marriage to nine-year-old Aisha. From IslamOnline, with thanks to Girasol:
WASHINGTON, June 15 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - A Florida minister from the Southern Baptist Church sparked anger in the U.S. Muslim community earlier this week with derogatory remarks concerning the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).Reverend Jerry Vines, speaking at an annual church conference in Saint Louis, Missouri, attacked Prophet Mohammed and said that the “the man who founded Islam had 12 wives, the last of which was a nine-year-old girl.”
Vines claimed in the speech that many of America’s problems could be blamed on religious pluralism.
Pluralists "would have us to believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity, but I'm here to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that Islam is not just as good as Christianity," said Vines.
“And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people," he continued.
During Vines’ address missionaries handed out green ribbons to encourage Baptists to pray for Muslims' conversion to Christianity.
Speaking on the issue of the Prophet’s marriages, prominent Muslim Scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al Qaradawi said that before the advent of Islam, it had been the habit of men to marry an unlimited number of women. The Old Testament states that David had 100 wives and Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. However, Islam nullified marriage to more than four women.
“Allah Almighty granted Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, something that is not allowed to any other Muslims. He Almighty allowed him to keep the wives that he had married and did not order him to divorce, replace any of them, or to marry anymore women,” he said....
“He did not marry any of his wives for lust or worldly desires, but for the good of Islam in order to strengthen the ties between the people and the new religion, especially because kinship and blood relations were well respected among the Arabs...."
Another Muslim Scholar, Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti said that the marriage of A'isha was Allah's plan for the Prophet.
“Allah usually is not the one who we are allowed to argue with for any ordinance or commandment. The Qur'an says, "He is not questioned for what He does, but they (people) are questioned for what they do."
”A'isha got married when she was 9, when the Prophet (SAAWS) died, she was 19. Her 10 years were of the life of a fully dedicated deciple, trainee and scholarly student with the Prophet (SAAWS). She was the source of knowledge for almost every companion. She was of the main sources for revealing knowledge and information of the private life of the Prophet (SAAWS). She was a big celebrity in politics and the best example of generosity. Her life is a token of a person who lived on earth, but never liked anything of dunya. She was always looking forward to joining the Prophet (SAAWS) in heaven. What is wrong in her marriage of six or nine or whatsoever?,” said Al Hanooti
In response to Vines’ comments, an indignant Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) called on U.S. President George W. Bush, Christian and Jewish leaders to condemn the minister's "reckless, Islamophobic statements."
"Reckless Islamophobic statements from individuals regarded as leaders in their faith community will harm America's image and interests worldwide and will serve to divide Americans at this time of national crisis," said CAIR president Omar Ahmad.
He said that such rhetoric from "respected leaders" could motivate hate crimes against some of the seven million Muslims living in the United States.
Seven million? Probably not even half that. But anyway, why doesn't Ahmad spend any time trying to dampen the inflammatory rhetoric that fuels actual violence by Muslims against non-Muslims around the world, instead of invoking the imaginary specter of vigilante violence against Muslims in the U.S.?
Eric Erfan Vickers, executive director for the American Muslim Council (AMC), in a statement noted the Southern Baptist Church’s historical legacy of supporting segregation between whites and blacks, said, Vines’ remarks “not only reflect unpardonable ignorance, but also indicate at a growing climate of religious prejudice in America.”“Any failure by our nation’s political and religious leaders to condemn Vines’ bigotry will only give license to other hatemongers,” Vickers asserted.
Why is it bigotry and ignorance and Islamophobia if it's true? Vines said that Christianity is superior to Islam, but don't Ahmad and Vickers believe that Islam is superior to Christianity? Is one bigotry and the other isn't?
But of course the problem is not so much Aisha as the suggestion that Islam teaches violence:
Shakur Bolden, president of the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida, called Vines' comments misinformed and said they unfairly painted Muslims as if they were all religious extremists."We don't let the bad eggs define our way of life," Bolden said to the Florida Times-Union, "just as he would not let the Ku Klux Klan or the IRA [Irish Republican Army] or other fanatic Christian organizations define mainstream Christianity."
Yet here again, the perspectives of the KKK and IRA were never accepted by any mainstream Christian sect or organization, while violent jihad is taught by every mainstream sect and school of jurisprudence in Islam.
"It's really unfortunate that a top leader in a mainstream Christian church ... would use such hate-filled and bigoted language in describing the faith of one-fifth of the world's population," said CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper."This is the level of bigotry that requires a clear statement from the top leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention," he added....
Let Hooper denounce child marriages undertaken in imitation of Muhammad, and declare Muhammad's example unacceptable in this case as well as in cases of violence perpetrated in the name of Islam, and he may have a leg to stand on. As it is, he doesn't.
However, in St. Louis, where the Southern Baptists were meeting, religious leaders distanced themselves from Vines."In the name of God, we condemn the hateful statement made in our city about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad," said Episcopal Bishop George Wayne Smith.
Does Smith really believe he was a prophet?
UPDATE: This article, according to some commenters here, date from 2002. My apologies. It is dated only "June 15" by IslamOnline, and so when I received it this morning, I thought it was referring to today. I will leave it up, however, since the points I made in commenting on it are, I believe, still valid.
Totally uncalled for. Why in the world should the truth be told, this is outrageous.
May Allah Fry Your Bacon.
"Reckless Islamophobic statements from individuals regarded as leaders in their faith community will harm America's image and interests worldwide and will serve to divide Americans at this time of national crisis," said CAIR president Omar Ahmad.
Seems to me the shoe is on the other foot, look what effect Muslim cleric statements are having with regard to the View of Muslims in the world.
I offer the Episcopal Bishop George Wayne Smith this opportunity to convert to Christianity and to follow Jesus and the Jesus Road. He is obviously a non-religious Episcopal Bishop...one of many. He is a fraud.
Vine's comments aren't triumphalist, it's his duty to point out these differences. Judeochristianity was never perfect, but it isn't absolutist or totalitarian either, unlike Islam. Religion works through us, it doesn't control us.
What those "Christians" who are calling him a bigot don't seem to understand is if the bible is true then the koran can't be.
I find it offensive that there are "Christians" who think Mo has the same merit/morals as Jesus not to mention incrediably stupid of them. They want to cuddle up to the people who are slaughtering Christians all over the globe? I suggest they stop being PC and start being REAL Christians.
What is wrong in her marriage of six or nine or whatsoever?,” said Al Hanooti........(This is the biggest problem with Islam.....No Respect of Children....children who have no say so in the way they are abused...no dreams....no plans....Just a promise of dark days and hardship....
11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold...Mat 24:11-12........How could anyone claim Love and Peace...And harm a Child?.....How could Mohammad be the perfect Human...and have sex and harm a Child?....Dash all hope......Dash all dreams that Child may ever have....Islam is a false hope...A false dream...SLAVERY....Break Free....President Bush is right....FREEDOM IS A GIFT OF GOD...But Slavery is of Allah!
Marriage to a 6 or 9 year old was not for sex it was for Allah. Hey and everybody was doing it anyway.
Lest we forget.
Hate filled? Bigoted? Pot calling the kettle black? Perhaps this blind fool should consult memri.org for the Special Report about Friday sermons in mosques in Saudi Arabia. The 'nice' Muslim clerics refer to Jews and Christians as "sons of pigs and monkeys" and the "scum of humanity."
Concerning the Koran and Muslim anti-Semitism and anti-Christian BIGOTRY he might gain some insight when consulting faithandfreedom.org, a website run by former Muslims. I'm not an expert with all the quotes but I am familiar with the ones about not taking Jews or Christians as friends.
Someone please help me.
I didn't see anything 'hateful'.I must have missed something???
I saw facts.
Fancy bringing in David and Solomon and the number of wives they had. That was thousands of years ago and things have changed. No Judeo-Christian, apart from some (non-mainstream) sects, practise polygamy anymore. A very silly comparison.
Yet islam still allows polygamy, and in some western societies they get away with it too, and claim benefits for all wives and children.
Everyday something stupid happens with islam being in the centre of it.
It's one-fifth of the worlds's population because of brain-washing.
Actions speak louder than words Behold the Peace of Islam: Picture of the Week
Exhaggeration and word-manipulation are the way of Islam. I tell you, Islamic leaders understand the English language and how to manipulate it better than most non-Muslims.
"Another Muslim Scholar, Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti said that the marriage of A'isha was Allah's plan for the Prophet.
“'Allah usually is not the one who we are allowed to argue with for any ordinance or commandment. The Qur'an says, 'He is not questioned for what He does, but they (people) are questioned for what they do.'"
-- from a posting above
A perfect distillation of the Habit of Mental Submission that is Islam. Believers are Slaves of Allah. They submit to Allah, to whatever Allah says. How do they know what Allah says? It is in the Qur'an. And there are rules set down long ago for the proper interpretation of the Qur'an. And the Qur'an is supplemented, for many, by the Sunnah -- the customs, the ways, the manners, the everything, to be gleaned from the written record of the Hadith (properly, ahadith), that is to say the stories of what Muhammad did, and what he said, and even when he remained silent. Though the Hadith in fact are merely tales teased out, by imaginative writers, from the initial Qu'ran (its origins murky, it is conceivably a Christian lectionary gone astray and askew), devout Muslims devoutly believe in their reality, and long ago Muslim scholars set themselves to school, to study and rank, according to the supposed reliability of the transmission of a particualr story, that is study of the isnad or chain of those who told -- A to B to C and so on -- the tale. Ranked according to "authenticity," those Hadith are now themselves transmitted, stamped with the authority of such muhaddithin as al-Bukhari and Muslim.
When Allah commands, it is not for the Believers to reason why. Indeed, it is not for the Believres to reason at all -- or at least they should attempt to question as little as possible, and not to get into the dangerous habit, exhibited by those poor benighted Infidels, of questioning, of skepticism. That way uncertainty, doubt, the terror of human freedom, lies.
Can't have that. Not for Believers. Not, in the end, for anyone. All must become Slaves of Allah. It's for their own good.
"Eric Erfan Vickers, executive director for the American Muslim Council (AMC), in a statement noted the Southern Baptist Church’s historical legacy of supporting segregation between whites and blacks, said, Vines’ remarks 'not only reflect unpardonable ignorance, but also indicate at a growing climate of religious prejudice in America.'"
-- from the article above
Let me guess. Let me guess that Eric (Erfan) Vickers is a black convert or revert to Islam, who thinks that Islam is full of social justice, has a universalist appeal, and is entirely devoid of racism -- so unlike bad old Christianity, with all those Christians supporting segregation.
Perhaps Eric Erfan Vickers does not realize that the oldest, largest, and cruelest slave trade in black Africa was that conducted, long before the European slavers arrived on the coast of West Africa, and continuing long after slavery had been abolished in the non-Islamic world. Perhaps he is unaware of the size of that Arab slave trade, which concentrated on seizing and castrating on the spot young African males, and then marching them by slave coffle to the waiting dhows to take them first to Muscat and Oman, or marched them all the way to various slave markets. Jan Hogedoorn, whose "The Hideous Trade" should be on the syllabi of every course on slavery in every university, estimates that 90% of those castrated did not live to be sold on the Islamic slave markets.
Eric (Erfan) Vickers talks about "segration." Does he have any idea how blacks are talked about, or how they are treated, in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt (ask someone who has spent time studying Arabic at one of those language schools in Cairo, or Damascus)? Any idea of the extreme contempt and hatred, that has left even those who arrived as apologists for Islam shaken? Does he know about the black slaves of Arab masters right now, in Mali and the Sudan and even, one has reason to believe, in the Arabian peninsula? Does he realize that it was the British who stamped out the African slave trade in the Persian Gulf (see "Britain and the Persian Gulf" by J. B. Kelly), over the furious objections of the local Arabs, or that it was the French who stamped out the slave trade by Arabs in North Africa? Does he know that there never was, and never could have been, an Islmaic William Wilberforce? Does he know that Islam sanctions slavery -- and since the Qur'an is immutable, and the Hadith now fixed in amber, that that acceptance and approval of slavery can never be changed in the belief-system of Islam?
If he doesn't, perhaps someone can help him find out. Or at least, prevent others from making his colossal error. Perhaps Francis Bok, formerly of the Sudan, or any number of black African refugees from Muslim persecution, slavery, and murder.
One doubts that Eric (Erfan) Vickers is capable of changing his views. He's out far and in deep. Drowning in Islam, though he thinks he's happily waving.
This article has sparked a little anger here, too, as it should.
But I check IslamOnline pretty regularly and hadn't seen this report.
Then, I realized that it's four years old.
Here's a little follow-up to it.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2002/6_17/pages/vines.html
Eric Vickers, executive director of the American Muslim Council in St. Louis, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that Vines' statements are "offensive to Muslims, Jews and Christians."
++++++++++++
When does a mo have the right to decide what is offensive to Jews and Christians.
I find islam and the actions of mos to be offensive to Jewish and Christian beliefs and morals.
Gramfan,
We cannot make excuses for David and Solomon. Remember, things were different thousands of years back. And marriages were not for the sake of lust only. In those times, people gladly gave, women chose to give themselves to mighty warriors so that they might have his security. The umbrella of safety automatically came over the women's family, and, by extension, tribe. This also helped the warrior, who had one more tribe from which he could call for fighters. But I think we have this perfectly valid argument of the security point to any mad mullah ranting about David's and Solomon's wives. Let us throw this upon them the next time they talk about madmo 'civilizing' infidels of ancient mecca.
"Bishop" smith needs to re-read John 10
Trouble is in these matters are the do gooder dhimmis who distance themselves, they should be banding around him and singing halleluha and amen to that!
"just as he would not let the Ku Klux Klan or the IRA [Irish Republican Army] or other fanatic Christian organizations define mainstream Christianity."
Hate to break it to ya Shak, you mohammedan putz, but the IRA are not Christian, Catholic, or anything else religious. They are marxists. They are not fighting against the Protestants who just happen to be descendents of Scottish and English colonizers, they are fighting against the descendents of Scottish and English colonizers, and the British government, who just happen to be Protestant. Just because the groups fighting on both sides come from populations of different versions of Christianity doesn't mean it's a religious war.
It's bad enough that the koran junkies want to play the equivalency game when it comes to terror groups.
Why the hell not?
Baader Meinhof must have been a Lutheran terrorist group, right? They were German, after all.
Italian Red Brigades? Mass-attending Catholics, they were.
Japanese Red Army? Buncha subversive Buddhists and Shintoists.
But why limit one's self to facts while furiously obfuscating and deflecting?
Robert,i realize that you probly just cut and paste these articles,but is their anyway way you could cut the (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). After mo mo's name?
Posted by: patriot4 at June 15, 2006 10:58 AM
(DIRT AND CAMEL DUNG be upon him). After mo mo's name? THERE YA GO!
Just for the record, it's my understanding that Muhammad married the (very) young lady when she was six years old. She was nine when he consummated the marriage. But then what could possibly be wrong with a fifty-plus-year-old man imposing himself sexually on a nine-year-old girl? After all, they were married....
Does anyone know whether Islam even recognizes the concept of pedophilia?
PRCS wrote: This article has sparked a little anger here, too, as it should.
But I check IslamOnline pretty regularly and hadn't seen this report.
Then, I realized that it's four years old.
Here's a little follow-up to it.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2002/6_17/pages/vines.html
Why would Islam Online bring this up after four years? Do they think we are stupid? Just more propaganda. They probably think that no one will check it out. Outrageous. Never, EVER, trust a mohammedan.
It is not the marriage to a 6 year old that people find revolting (though I'm hardly defending it). It is the fact that it was consummated when she was 9 and he was 54.
A 54 year old man getting his sexual kicks with a 9 year old girl. And we can't even say a word (let alone a cartoon) against him.
Caratacus,
IslamOnline didn't rerun the article. The only two references to Vines' statements in their archives that I could find are from June of 2002.
So, I'm not sure why Girasol submitted a four year old article to Robert.
Nonetheless, it remains an article worth re-reading.
If you are aware of any jihad inspired violence anywhere in the world, here is where you can report such "hate crimes": Report a Hate Crime
I read that one of the 3 females who died after an unfortunate encounter with a U.S.A.F. 500 lb. bomb was the late Mr. Z's 16 year old "wife". Thought that kind of thing was confined to West Virginia.
Morons like Smith are one of the reasons the Episcopal Church is withering away.
5 Billion non-Muslims find Islam OFFENSIVE IN THE EXTREME. Notice that there's nothing any of us folks can do about it.
Notice too how Islam is set up to offend AND continue offending--and the hell with everyone else.
The Episcopal Smith represents (Not a religion) but a belief of LOST IDENTITY.
The Episcopals are recognizing Hamas and Hisbollah, denouncing Israel, and opening their arms to islam. There are several Episcopal churchs that are now allowing joint worship services with Episcopal/muslim congregations with an Episcopal priest and a muslim iman teaching the services.
The Episcopals have lost their identity, thrown away their MANUAL.
On a side note, I have no problem with Jerry Vines comments, and I believe they are way over due. I think the American churches need to start speaking up and educating the public. Especially since our media, public schools, politicians, CAIR, ACLU, are all pushing a consensus of misinformation. I believe that everyone on the left has been proud that they have beat down the American churches over the past three decades, so much that they are like a beat puppy with it's tail between its legs. At the same time the American churches have allowed the left to put them in a corner and to shut up, and the churches have stayed there.
It is time the churches come out of the corner.
It will be interesting to see if the Southern Baptist organization issues an apology for this comment. On Tuesday their CONSERVATIVE leadership was voted out by younger more liberal pastors that believe the Souther Baptist need to move more LEFT and be more MULTICULTURAL. So I guess they may become more like Episcopals. Hopefully they will keep a backbone.
“He did not marry any of his wives for lust or worldly desires, but for the good of Islam in order to strengthen the ties between the people and the new religion, especially because kinship and blood relations were well respected among the Arabs...."
This Hadith reveals how perverted Muhammad was and how sane other Arabs were by contrast. Bukhari:V4B52N211 “I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, ‘Apostle, I am a bridegroom.' He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, ‘A matron.' He said, ‘Why not a virgin who would have played with you? Then you could have played with her.' ‘Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.'” It's obvious who corrupted whom.
He sounds like one who just woke up and made public statments about obvious observations;yet hasn't quite picked up on the nature of the whole CAIR propaganda machine and their need for constant fodder. Still to quote Robert Plant:
"that you will be mine by taking our time,ohhhhh! (Led Zep II in background-had to be done)
Here's an IslamOnline follow-up to the original article:
U.S. Southern Baptist Minister Offers No Apology to Muslims
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-06/18/article39.shtml
Everyone here knows I an atheist. As a result, I believe this entitles me to judge the Pastor's statements with no bias, although some here will undoubtedly disagree. The statement made by the Pastor, that is, “Pluralists would have us to believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity, but I'm here to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that Islam is not just as good as Christianity," is clearly true. Indeed, there is no comparison between Christianity and Islam. At it's worse, Christianity is a terrible annoyance. However, at it's best, it is a highly respectable philosophy. The same cannot be said for Islam. Islam has no right to continue to exist in its present form. It must either be destroyed from within, or from without.
It makes no difference that this article is dated 2002, it is as valid as if it happened today. Salman Rushdie is as endangered today as is Hirsi Ali and the cartoonists in Denmark, this is the permanent threat emanating from allowing Mohammedan infil-traitors in our midst to those who "offend" Islam.
The Mohammedans live in the 7th century, to which they want to return us all, calling us 'crusaders' proves my case in point since most of their rhetoric and real or imagined history goes all the way back to Mohammed and his raids, his killing sprees, his glorified rapes etc. etc.
They are on the attack, we are on the retreat: Every time Mohammedans go on the offensive our polit-props, our MSM, everyone in the cross-hairs of the mudjahiddin caves in to Islamo- pressure. Pathetic!
Interestingly the CAIR and MPAC propagandists have been all over the map announcing the "number of Muslims in America". In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, estimates seemed to start around 5-6 million, and within a month or so reached as high as 10 million to my recollection. I began to do my own research (out of extreme worry) and learned that most respectable estimates put their numbers between 1.8 and 2.8 million in the USA.
CIA Factbook puts them at 1% which would be upwards of 2.7 million. This is very granular data, so it's not exactly accurate.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Here's a recent article (June 15, 2006) in which a CAIR gestapo gives the following "estimate" :
“They have hurt the feelings of not only the seven to 10 million Muslims in America, but the almost 1.2 billion Muslims all over the world,” said Ghazi Khankan, the executive director of the Council on American Islamic Relations of New York"
http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16795712&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=542415&rfi=6
Here's an interesting site which features several 2001 estimates -- they range from the 1.5 millions up to 7:
http://www.pluralism.org/news/index.php?tags=2093
Clearly Muslims consistently exaggerate their numbers to magnify their importance on US Soil. I seriously doubt that the "fastest growing religion in the US" numbers above 1%, and I doubt the "fastest growing religion in the US" has added to its numbers since 9/11. There is anecdotal evidence online in blogs that Muslims are tired of not being successful with their Jihad in the US, and may be leaving our shores.
BOO HOO. If it works for them, it works for me though.
the mos can not stand the truth being revealed about the filth that is islam.
Notice the finesse wih which the BBC reports this murder case, today, without mentining the words 'Muslim' or 'honour killing' - we're left thinking that the 17 year old brother(who'll stll be young enough to marry and start breeding when he leaves jail) may have been suffering from diminished responsibility.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4977184.stm
As Jesus said, who is "The Way, the truth, and the life", and who stood up to the religious leaders of this day, continue to bless the Reverend Jerry Vines and those Jewish and Christian leaders who speak the truth about Islam and Muhaamed.
Slowly, CAIR is starting to show its true colors.
"In the name of God, we condemn the hateful statement made in our city about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad," said Episcopal Bishop George Wayne Smith."
This statement does not suprise me. The Episcopal Church is in bigtime trouble that it is fading away. What is left of it, its conserivitive element will be taken up by what is called the Anglican Church, lead by bishops from Africa and Asia that are a lot more conservitive.