Islamic Tolerance Alert from peaceful, moderate Indonesia. The Ahmadiyah, a peaceful Islamic sect considered heretical by mainstream bodies, seeks help from Australia to ease its persecution in Indonesia. "Islamic sect in Indonesia seeks help from Australian consulate," from AFP, with thanks to Sr. Soph:
DENPASAR, Indonesia - An Islamic sect in Indonesia that claims it has been persecuted by Muslim hardliners met with Australia’s consul in Bali Monday seeking international support, one of its leaders said.Two leaders from Ahmadiyah, a minority Muslim group, met with Australian staff to complain of the harassment of their members in Lombok, the tourist island next to Bali, one of them said.
Syamsir Ali said 180 members of Ahmadiyah have spent six months living in a temporary shelter in Mataram, Lombok’s capital, after hardline Muslims attacked their homes and mosques, and have not been able to return home.
He said the refugees were living on small amounts of rice and noodles supplied by the local government.
“We went to the consulate because for six months in Mataram this problem hasn’t finished,” Ali, the head of the Ahmadiyah community in Lombok, told AFP.
“They (Ahmadiyah members) are still living as refugees, their houses are destroyed, they can’t return to their houses, or to their fields, or to school. There is no legal protection,” he said.
Ali said the group wanted to meet with diplomats from other countries concerned about human rights.
“We asked, what can they do to help us?” said Ali.
He said the attack in February this year was the eighth against the group since 2001....
I am sure that Louise Arbour from the UN COMMISSION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS will be right down to help them. That is, if she is not too busy accusing Thailand and Israel of war crimes for having the nerve to resist genocide.
Poor Ali,
I feel for him & my Ahmadi brethern.
We all know that eventually Islam will the global brand of favour.
Peoples....please....when you convert become an Ahmadi...this is the best way ...Islam will dominate...but with a peaceful brand.
Athough Ali and his Ahmadi followers are probab;y lost for now...becoming an Ahmadi has got to be the best way to help Ali ie longer term.
Please convert ASAP in the Amerekie ...but only as Ahmadi and Inshalla ..mercy will be showered upon thee!
Study the posting above. Study the mentality that produced it.
Study the posting above. Study the mentality that produced it.
Posted by: Hugh at July 24, 2006 08:03 AM
And they don't even give you free toasters!
I studied the posting, Hugh. I see naked fear, and of all things, Islamic "dhimmitude"! Behavior like that of a whipped dog.
The answer is freedom and dignity, regardless of what B.F. Skinner thought or what Islam teaches, regardless of which strain, or what any other politicized belief system preaches. The reason why the U.S. system excels stems from its acknowledgement of the dignity of the individual and its lack of obstacles to that person's freedom. This alignment works to bring out the best of human endeavor.
The socialist systems disregard human nature; instead they try to 'improve' on it by working against it. It fails for the same reason the common coffee pot is filthy in most work places where someone doesn't 'own' the coffee duty.
The idea that we can 'fix' or 'improve' human nature by dictate or by a set of imposed 'truths' has been tried over and over throughout history. You'd think it would be exposed as a failure by now. The interesting thing is that this thing changes its outer coat, much like the rhinovirus does... so that it looks 'new', 'progressive' and full of hope for those who would impose their wisdom on the rest of us.
The answer to our problems rests in the dignity and freedom of the individual. Some of us are so unbelievably lucky to have been born in places where a bill of rights or other protective measures are in place. We don't even realize what it really means - even if we do appreciate it.
A bad manager in the work place will try to make things equitable by punishing or restricting everyone, instead of dealing with the few personnel problems. The thinking must be: everyone will have it the same and I won't have to deal with unpleasantries and won't have to confront the problem workers. That brings the whole crew down and usually eliminates any chance at excellence. What a price to pay for weakness in a manager.
Naseem and the rest of Muslims-by-name who can't break the chains as they really should are like the bad managers in the workplace. They'd rather have everyone suffer equally instead of removing the problems and obstacles.
Choking everyone down so that we all suffer equally is never the solution. People in the United States will never stand for this either. Naseem & the rest of you out there: you're greatly misled about the United States. Free yourself and stop the madness before it's too late. Ameriki is not going to remain 'civil' and 'manageable' for much longer if the trends in place don't change from the other side. You're bringing down the juggernaut. This is NOT a boast...
Plague says "They'd rather have everyone suffer equally instead of removing the problems and obstacles".
By having Allah in your lives ...how can you constitute this as a a problem or suffering.
Plague...you have it the wrong way round...Quickly Flip this over...by having Allah in your lives...we will all prosper equally what's wrong with you!
you say "You're bringing down the juggernaut".
NO! we are putting it on a flat stright road ...so that it cannot come off the road...or have a flat tyre! In effect a juggernaut 4eva...but you need to convert quickly to reap the benefits.....Ahmadi Rulz though.
Naseem(s): here's why having allah in my life constitutes a problem and a suffering:
Allah is evil. Proof from the Eternal Pen of Allah itself.
Allah will not forgive:
9:113 It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah’s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief).
Allah wants you to obey - even if you object to fighting. Peace between peoples is wrong:
Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.
(with thanks to Archimedes below)
"Fitnah: Polytheism and to disbelieve after one has believed in Allah, or a trial or a calamity, affliction or to set up rivals in worship with Allah, etc."
[Note: Fitnah is worse than killing a believing Muslim, 2:191, 2:217. The worst possible sin in all of Islam according to the Koran is disbelief in or denial of Allah (10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 18:57, 29:68, 32:22, 39:32, 61:7)].
8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world].
Keep in mind that Islam is a mission to all mankind 34:28, and Islam's mission is to conquer all other religions, 9:33, 48:28, 61:9, 2:193]
Qur'an 9:29, which is regarded by all as the specific passage commanding Muslims to fight Christians and Jews until they accept Dhimmitude( second-class citizen status) : Fight those among the People of the Book who do not believe in Allah and the last Day, do not forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden and do not profess the true religion, till they pay the poll-tax out of hand and submissively.
The above came from some of Archimedes' work.
The sure way into Paradise:
9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.
side note: since killing or being killed is the only sure way of getting to Muslim paradise the people are not sure if Mohammed is in paradise himself. This is why they reflexively say “peace be upon him” every time the mention him. They don’t know where he ended up.
Allah says: Don’t use your mind:
5:101 Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.
5:102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.
Allah is an avowed terrorist:
8:12 I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.
8:57 If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.
3:151 We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve..."
7:3 Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.
33:26 And those of the People of the Book who aided them (Jews, Christians and sometimes Zoroastrians)- Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
Allah wants people to fight; it’s good for us:
2: 216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
2:244 Fight in the cause of Allah
9:5 When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.
Qur’an 8:40 If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know that Allah is your Supporter. And know that one fifth of all the booty you take belongs to Allah, and to the Messenger, and for the near relatives (of the Messenger)
9:14 Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
Allah likes to deceive and torture people and spends a lot of time in Hell:
5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.”
74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire.
More proof Allah's hell is in Allah’s heaven.
66:6 “Believers! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are angels stern (and) severe as wardens, who flinch not (from executing) the commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded.”
Again, it's clear Allah is the top warden. Hell is in Allah's heaven, and this is what Allah enjoys most. Allah never visits the whore house. Too busy torturing.
47:15 Those who shall dwell forever in the Fire are given to drink boiling water that tears their bowels to pieces, and cutting their intestines to shreds.”
13:5 Those who deny will wear collars and chains, yokes (of servitude) tying their hands to their necks; they will be the inmates of Hell.… They will witness Our (many) exemplary punishments! Verily, your Lord is severe in retribution.
Women and children are obstacles to men:
64:14 Believers, truly, among your wives and your children there are enemies for you: so beware of them!
8:28 And know that your property and your children are just a temptation.
Sometimes Allah changes his mind or improves things the second time around:
2.106. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
16.101. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
comments: Why didn’t Allah say what we needed to know the first time? Why substitute one thing for another at all? The all-knowing god contradicts himself – how is that possible? Why do you think the imams have to repeat “And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best” after their rulings? It’s because would-be ‘Submitters’ intuitively know the thing as a whole makes no rational sense. The imams have to tell people not to think about it.
Muhammad himself got angry when people asked questions. Islam ‘the system’ is not consistent, like a framework of ethics would be. Islam knows no real ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. The words tell you that… defining words like halal or haram which mean ‘permitted’ or ‘forbidden’, not ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Deeds are justified based on the situation, not by any real standard. The meaning of words changes if they are applied to Believers instead of the Unbelievers.
The Islamic world is doomed to pain and suffering on Earth because it thinks it has to obey a set of rules and commands which make no consistent sense.
Western, liberal, representative governments didn’t develop in spite of Judeo-Christian teaching; We enjoy these rights and freedoms today because the West followed the moral code of the Old Testament and the teachings of the New testament. It hasn’t been easy to get where we are and the progress has never been linear. But It’s no accident that guaranteed rights and freedoms developed in the West alone. Just as it’s no accident that people in the Islamic world are mostly uneducated, mostly poor and usually live a short and brutish life. Half of the Nation of Islam lives under the caprice of tyrants and imams and the other half lives under house arrest and wears a veil. The ‘Nation of Islam’ the Ummah, has no guarantee of anything except more Islam - more Submission – more of the same.
Supremacist claims of Islam from Allah himself:
The only religion is the religion of Allah, Islam…16:52
Muslims (Islam) are the best of righteous people...3:110
Allah has perfected Islam and it is the only religion for mankind (last verse revealed, and so, the final word of Allah disclosed to Muhammad)...5:3
Islam is the perfect religion; it will dominate all other religions...9:33
Can't worship anything other than Allah; Islam is the only right religion (the purpose of an Islamic state)...12:40
There is only one God (Allah) and all should bow to Islam...21:108
Allah proclaims Islam (the religion of truth) over all other religions…48:28
Allah has sent Muhammad to proclaim the 'Religion of Truth’ (Islam) over all religions...61:9
48.28 It is He Who has sent His Messenger with the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he
may make it superior to every other religion, exalting it over them. Muhammad is the
Prophet of Allah. Those who are with him are severe with Infidel unbelievers.
You can lie and break treaties with unbelievers:
9:3 And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Pilgrimage is that Allah and His Messenger dissolve treaty obligations with the Pagans.
9:12 If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.
I think that's enough. Allah is evil by its own words and commands to humans. It doesn't deserve respect - let alone worship.
Also -
In both Matthew 9:13 and 12:7, Jesus says, "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'"
He was talking about what God had in mind. Relationship over ritual. Hollow motions lead to a hollow soul. Having a deep, meaningful connection to God and people around you is what counts. Mercy is a big indicator of this.
but not according to another:
Mercy is against God – Ayatolla Khomeni in 1981
Naseem, now you know what I've told to you before. This is Moslem your brother in the same religion Islam that persecute you Ahmadiyah, not non moslem. But still you preach the evil Islam.
And now your brothers Indonesian Ahmadiyah want to seek help from Australia the non moslem country, why don't they seek it from others Islamic countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Iran?
Oooowhhh, I know the answer!!! of course it is because your Indonesian Ahmadiyah brothers know their only safe place in this world is in non moslem country in which the government can protect their faith.
I'm sure, not in the long time again, all of us will see the collapse of Islam, Amen!!!
Naseem - the earth will move under your feet in a way you've never experienced before. The rumbling is coming.. The tsunami is building and gathering speed.
Be ready when it comes to you. It will come, the true believers will ensure it does. Free yourself and take precautions.
Thank you, Naseem, where would we all be without you?
It's ironic that the Ahmadiyas have to demand that an Infidel country - Australia - has to come and rescue their sorry butts. Of course, no real Islamic country would do it.
Naseem, suggest you start a militant separatist movement in Pakistan. After all, the Pathans, Baluchis both have theirs, so why not join the fun? Normally, I'm indifferent, but I'll root for you to gain as much of Pak terretory as you desire (no part of Kashmir, even 'Azad' Kashmir included).
Naseem, if allah allows you to prosper, why are you people wanting what's everyone elses?
Why can't muslims create or do anything productive?
You can't. Your allah won't let you. It's too easy to kill and steal.
I think this thread would have to win the award for the highest rate of off topic comments per total comments made. Honestly, where are there any comments about the article? Here is my comment about the article:
Is the Ahmadiyah, "a peaceful Islamic sect" as mentioned in the article? If so, don't they meet Robert's criteria for a reasonable path for people to choose, if they are disavowing Jihad? I thought Robert clearly points out that he is not against Islam per se, but with the issues of Islam that are intolerant and threaten others. I mean.. hello... this is JIHAD watch isnt it? Frankly I dont see how this article relates to either JIHAD activity or DHIMMI activity. I dont think its DHIMMI that someone turns up cap in hand to beg off our government. I think its DHIMMI if we bent over to accomodate them, so to speak.
So put the hate remarks away and stick to the topic, oh valued JIHAD watch colleagues.
Hugh I thought you would have had something more constructive to say. Perhaps you are busy publishing.
Hugh wrote: Study the posting above. Study the mentality that produced it.
Aiiiigh. I just did. And I’m reeling. OK, regain balance, OK.....OK. I read as follows:
1) Poor Ali, I feel for him & my Ahmadi brethern.
Naseem expresses compassion for the Ahmadi’s in the article. Apparent human compassion. She wishes for them - as for herself - the natural right to be who she is, to worship in her custom, that is, to enjoy her natural freedom of conscience, and to live unmenaced by violent bigotry for just being herself.
2) Peoples....please....when you convert become an Ahmadi...this is the best way ...Islam will dominate...but with a peaceful brand.
She next, without hiccupping, expresses her wish (with her trademark of viciously expressing it a foregone conclusion) to see the Westerner lose our cherished freedom of conscience, natural rights, and personally chosen way of life which reflects our identity.
3) ...becoming an Ahmadi has got to be the best way to help Ali ie longer term.
Her little twist – she hopes we end up in her sorry camp – the Ahmadis – to benefit her needs. Please please, hated Amrikans, rescue me and mine from the Jihad I support.
Her worried wish is for help from some future Western Ahmadi converts against the oppression of islam’s bigotry and intolerance against her people. Her best hope is that Westerners lose their way of life (of course) but then embrace Ahmadya big time, and can then be the powerful big brother the Ahmadis need to defend against the islamic rage directed at them for their heresies against islam.
payingattention:
Consider that you may have misunderstood the dicussion here. Examining the bizarre hypocracy of our “Ahmadi Jihadi” troll Naseem’s thinking is the most relevant activity. Even subject to Jihad herself (as an Ahmadi, like the people in the article), she can’t identify with the others targeted for abuse as for being unislamic, as any decent human would be deeply moved to do, but instead still harbors enmity and ill-wishes towards non-muslims. She's golden-rule-challenged.
Like Hugh pointed out, her mentality is the crux of this whole matter.
You may be fairly new here, but we’ve watched and interacted with Naseem routinely for over a year. Her oddly impenetrable mentality is instructive.
Cheers
Hi WestwardHo,
I agree Naseem is a troll. However I saw from "her" post that the whole thread was hijacked by her ridiculous statement.
What no one, even yourself it seems, has refuted the article remark that Ahmadiyah is "a peaceful Islamic sect".
That, and the fact that they called upon Australia for help, a silly move I agree, was the topic as far as I was concerned.
And for the record, I found your "new boy" remark to be just a tiny bit patronising. Just because Ive only been on this site for 6 months doesnt mean that I havent been thinking about these issues, maybe as long as you?
Cheers and good evening from Australia
Assalamau-Laikum Zathras,
For the record I am not programmed...I am a member of a faith ...like bigcatgirl or Mike_W (both of whom are christian).
Those two are examples of who would not give up a faith under any circumstances...catgirl for example foolishly believes that black christains are gonna come & save the west...
Likewise I belive in (the early) suras of the Koran and tenets of the Ahmadi belief.
I also belive that some suras of the Koran are false..and some others just plain silly. On the whole though there is enough for a powerful sense of belief and that Islam is cosy & rosy and well worthy of belief.
As to "the lack of usual bloodcurdling threats" , what is the point of that? I want to converse with you ...spread dawa, get publicity for the Ahmadi, let you know that we are there for peace and that there is a place for you as an Ahmadi.
You cannot go far wrong as an Ahmadi...it is the sweet smell of being one of Allah's own and at peace with all.....
Now we just need a couple of things more and this is where the infedel can help.
1) that the rest of the muslims see us as muslims.
2) failing that ..that there are enough wuslims who are Ahmadi so that we can batter the muslim when the time right through political policy.
They too will finaly accept that being Ahmadi is better than being infedel in the dar-al-harb. Please stand patiently in line for conversion.
Naseem - you are one of the 72 sects which will be destroyed by the 1 true sect. You will never be reconciled with the true believers. Your creed is all about division, not reconciliation.
You can't be serious in saying the infidel can help other muslims see your sect as legitmate.
Give it up. You will lose in this world to Sunni/Shi'a. They won't accept you. You have damaged the image of Mohammed. You don't accept that he was the Seal of the Prophets. For this you are najis and infidel like the rest of us. Stop trying to convince us to join you in your unique brand of suffering. Free yourself.
Assalamau-Laikum Zathras,
you ask "don't you think it ironic that yr sect asks for help from the west while still attempting to convert them?"
Ironic...perhaps so but the larger the number of Ahmadis...the stronger we are.
Infedels are weak individuals who love to support a sorry sob story...history has shown this. The Ahmadi needs strong support and who better than the infedel understands this.
I think that infedels go to make excellent Admadis, I have seen this with my potential daughter-in-law.
Don't give a damn about the irony...just come & join/support us.
Naseem, you have no other choice. The only solution for Ahmadiyah is go back to "the true islam" or get out from that "stupid barbaric primitive cult".
don't be so stupid. even Abdurahman Wahid the so called Indonesian moderate moslem cannot do anything to help Indonesian Ahmadiyah. That's why the only last hope for Indonesian Ahmadiyah is getting help from Australia the infidel country. You see it!!!
Come and join us Naseem, get out from Islam right now, Islam is not for us. It is more safe for you Ahmadiyah to convert to other religion than you keep stupidity in Ahmadiyah.
TIC .. TOC ..TIC .. TOC, the ending time of ISLAM is coming soon.
This topic was not about Naseem. I am amazed at how you have let "her" hijack it.
Hello payingattention -
Hugh Fitzgerald, the VP of JW/DW, in his widsom, directed the thread that way. He advised to study her mindset because it is such a demonstration of the kernel of Jihadism. He knows that sometimes it is appropriate to bend the rules.
Even though Ahmadis are oppressed by muslim jihad on account of their peaceful "religious innovation," a real life ahmadi (Naseem) still can't emerge from her blind desire to conquer us all for Islam. She blasts away the misimpresssion we may have formed about Ahmadis as a kind of liberal minded ally (I previously had, at least) from articles like the above . This Ahmadi's liberal-mindedness still doesn't extend to the reviled infidel.
payingattention
Had this thread been about a subject other than Ahmadiyas, you'd be right.
But the party line the world is being treated to is that Ahmadiyas are a peaceful sect of Muslims. Fortunately or unfortunately, there's no way of knowing, since they don't run any country. Therefore, the only way of knowing how they really think is to see one in action - and that's where Naseem is the gift that keeps on giving.
Now, there have been theories about whether she is what she claims - be it Ahmadiya, Woman, Pakistani, Muslim, widow,... take your pick. It is perfectly possible that she's in fact a bunch of people, not necessarily in Pakistan, having a good laugh at our expense. In which case, you'd be right.
I avoid engaging her much these days, since I agree that she's an exhibit to be studied, not a lost soul needing advice. Archimedes pointed out in another thread how she sounds very different from an Ahmadiya, since the sentiments she echos are that of an average Sunnite/Shiite. If that's the case, you'd be right again, and this is yet another wasted thread.
But on Robert's challenge, which you cite, two important points should be noted:
- Ahmadiyas have had to claim that they received a set of revealations that supercede those of Mohammed
- They are not only persecuted, but other Muslims are required to acknowledge that Ahmadiyas are not Muslim
As a result, even if none of the 'Naseem-factor' existed, the Ahmadiya, or the Bahai, for that matter, can't be a legitimate disproval of Robert's challenges to the Ummah.Infedel Pride
Thanks for that, I do find that constructive and helpful.
Really i would have liked a comment on whether the claim they were a peaceful sect as correct or not.
I don't bother with Naseem. I dont see the point.
Cheers