Note how he uses indignation to try to divert the questioner. From "Torkelson: Mosque adapting to its diversity," in the Rocky Mountain News, with thanks to Twostellas:
A local landscaper, a Denver-born consultant, and a kid from Kansas - if you hung around Denver's largest mosque at 2071 S. Parker Road, it's likely you'd bump into them all. They reflect Islam's changing profile from foreign-born faith to American presence.On Sunday, I found myself in the company of the three - Mohammad Noorzai, Malik Taylor and Ammar Amonette - because I had heard big changes were coming to the mosque, whose formal name is the Colorado Muslim Society. It's a major, influential Islamic center where thousands of Colorado's estimated 15,000 Muslims worship, and where the demographics are changing.
Non-Arabs represent slightly more than half the mosque's members. The fastest growing segments are African Americans, whites and Latinos.
"We're a community that's more diverse than any (American) parish," says Amonette.
Three major firsts reflect the mosque's efforts to adapt.
• Amonette, 45, has been named the society's first American-born imam, or spiritual leader. He's believed to be the only American-born imam to run a major Islamic center in the U.S. His predecessor was the Egyptian-born Ahmed Nabhan, who left in December by "mutual decision."...
Today, with the Mideast aflame, there was one question that I thought many Americans, rightly or wrongly, might want to ask: If America were attacked by terrorists who professed to do it in the name of Islam, whom would you support?
"I can't believe that question - I'm shocked," Amonette, open-mouthed, said. "You don't ask that kind of question of other people."
But Noorzai, the mediator, recognized the question as an opportunity to help Americans understand how Muslims express the values of their faith: "She just wants to shed light on it," he said. "Muslim loyalty - where is it?"
The first loyalty is to Islam's principle of not harming innocent people, ever. "We're going to be on the side that's just and fair," he said.
Note that they didn't give a straight answer.
To live in a country you need to be loyal to that country, If someone is in your country and they don't say that they are loyal the most conservative conclusion you could come to is that they are not. If someone is not loyal they should be on the next flight to wherever they came from. We all know what lack of loyalty results in, 9-11 and 7/7.
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."
--Stephen Decatur, 1816, at banquet celebrating his victory over the Barbary pirates.
“Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.”
--Senator Carl Schurz, US Senate 1872
MUSLIMS TAKE AN OATH TO ALLAH AND ISLAM KNOWS NO BORDERS....DO NOT COUNT ON A MUSLIMS OATH TO AMERICA!
Questions of loyalty are more serious now than at any period in the history of the United States. During the Vietnam war or the cold war, ideological affiliation with 'enemies' of the United States, like North Vietnam or the Soviet Union, might merely entail supporting certain political theories or principles, like certain tenents of Marxist philosophy, the theoretical rejection of private property and such like. But Soviet spies were not infiltrating the United States and bombing or trying their best to bomb, trains, planes, or whatever caused the most death and destruction; the Soviet Union never made a committement to deliver WMD to American soil, as Muslim jihadist groups have. No communist ideologue ever baldly asserted the communists were going to destroy the United States in a global conflagration, as Muslim imams around the world frequently do; and there did not exist a communist theory, organic to communism itself, that obligated all true communists to fight non-believers and those who would oppose the inevitable conquest of communism.
But all this can be said of Islam and more. Are Muslims ultimately loyal to the ummah or to the United States? Do they denounce all forms of jihad and da'wa that aim at Islamic conquest of the United States? Do Muslim citizens swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against Muslim brethren who seek to destroy it? These questions relate directly to a hot war where millions of lives lie in the balance. These are not paranoid question, they are not irrational.
These are questions that should be asked and answered.
If these were white power groups, the FBI would ride them till they break. Muslims seem to enjoy protected status.
Actually Robert, if one knows what 'just' and 'fair' mean in Islam, it was a straight answer.
Even if one is unaware of the Islamic vocabulary, look at it this way. If the Imam was supporting the US, he'd have been explicit about it - why would he hide it? However, as he was not planning to take the side of the US, he had a very strong reason for not stating where his loyalties lie.
Their 'not-straight' answer was the answer. To too many people looking for the wiggle room, it may not have been satisfactory, but it tells me, for one, all I need to know.
If these people were white power groups or a different religious cult (David Koresh, the Weavers, etc.) the FBI would ride them till they break, but hands off islam.
Sorry about the 1st post..thought I refreshed in time.
Why bother? Just feed him to a python-- there won't be any trace of any human remain when it came out its back end.
An addition to the Islamic Dictionary for Infidels:
innocent people - An Arabic translation of an obscure word meaning every Muslim on planet Earth and the known universe. The term applies only to Muslims as does the word people. Since infidels are either apes, pigs, or dogs, the word "people" applies only to Muslims. Every infidel is an impediment to Islamic world domination, and they are therefore not innocent.
By definition, there are no innocent people outside of Islamdom.
Hi All, The agenda of Islam is NOT to integrate. The agenda is to move in, stick in muslim communities, have zillions of kids, build mosques and eventually rule as the majority.
Bin Laden irritated some Islamic leaders because they felt that he didn't help but rather 'exposed' Islam's intentions to take over the world. They felt that in time, with patience, they would be able to accomplish this through political means.
NEVER expect the majority of Muslims in this country to love this country. They are only interested in what they can GAIN until they rule.
I have never posted a link before, but this one is EXCELLENT and you will want to send it to anyone who is lacking understanding of Islam. The woman being interviewed is a secular Arab-American Psychologist named Wafa Sultan. She lays it out on the table and says it the way it is. VERY interesting.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul
Goobs,
What you said has already been said in Koran.
"When you are weak, be polite, until such time that you become numerous."
"We're going to be on the side that's just and fair."
Another pair of words that mean something different when a Muslim says them.
just - From the word justice, meaning that concept which allows Muslims to have their way without question. Countries that force Muslims the conform to secular laws are "unjust." Therefore, the enforcement of Sharia is the only "justice" that is acceptable.
fair - From the word fairness. Meaning that every Muslim is superior to infidels and must be deferred to in any situation. Example - Not allowing a Mosque to have loudspeakers blasting the calls to prayer is unfair.
How to Talk to a Muslim (If You Must)
My apologies to Ann Coulter (How to Talk to a Liberal – If You Must) but I’ve thought a lot about all the discussion about radical Muslims, moderate Muslims and every type of Muslim in between.
My question is this. If moderate Muslims exist, are they still Muslims?
Try this experiment. When you meet a person who claims to be a Muslim ask them these two questions.
• Which nation do you owe allegiance to? The country you live in of the ummah?
• Do you adhere to the Sharia Law or the secular laws of your country?
If their answers are:
• The ummah
• Yes
You are talking to a real Muslim. If other than those answers, ask them why they consider themselves true Muslims? Isn’t there a contradiction here? Aren’t true Muslims members of the body or nation of Islam called the ummah and owe there allegiance to that? And shouldn’t Muslims follow the Sharia Law first, and the laws of the country the live in second?
I know these are leading questions similar to “When did you stop beating your wife?” but they raise an interesting idea. If true Muslims pledge allegiance to their host country and do adhere to secular law above Sharia law, then how do they reconcile the teachings and tenets of Islam today?
WC
The Gathering Storm
http://the-gathering-storm.blogsource.com/
O.T.
I missed this - a splendid rebuke to foolish and unpleasant politicians and opinion-formers from Charles Moore in the Telegraph:
Full text
The answer is clear: Islam is justice. Islam is what is fair. Islam is everything. The very idea that a member of the umma al-islamiyya could conceivably take the side of an Infidel nation-state against those claiming to fight for Islam and its final triumph, is absurd. Only the bad Muslims, the unobservant and skeptical Muslims, the Muslims embarrasseed about the whole thing, the "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims, can -- perhaps -- be counted on.
Why is this hard to understand? Why is it hard for members of Congress, attempting to deal with immigration matters, not paying to this? Why is it hard for the State Department, still allowing visas to immigrants from Muslim countries, or Muslims from predominantly non-Muslim countries, not making a study of this, with real experts (please, no espositos, no armstrongs, no representatives of the ACLU or Jimmy-Carter-think-alikes -- this is the country's future that is at stake), and requre of all those who wish to remain in this country a clear and unequivocal statement of loyalty, not only to the country, but to the provisions of the Constitution, including those which Islam flatly contradicts. And practitioners of taqiyya will discover that prompt deportation should follow if there is evidence of perjury -- and of course, evidence of such perjury is all around.
As for those being lured into Islam, that must be no longer considered anything but a threat to national security. Take a perfectly ordinary non-Muslim American, turn him into a Muslim, and overnight he has become a potential threat to all other infidel Americans. What is being done by the government, by private parties, by churches and youth groups, to monitor vigilantly the conduct of Da'wa, to show up in order to offer such questions as the one above, to spread the word about Muhammad as the Perfect Model (start with Aisha -- that is always difficult for Muslms to deal with, and it jump-starts the hysteria, and it is always useful to have that on display. Or bring up Asma bint Marwan, or the Khaybar Oasis, or the killing of the prisoners of the Banu Qurayza. And don't fail to bring up certain events in Muslim history -- from the 60-70 million Hindus killed, to the churches razed or turned into mosques -- from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, destroyed not once but several times, beginning in 1009, and the Hagia Sophia. Mention how Islam permanentyly accepts -- it's in the Qur'an, Muhammad the Perfect Man was a slave-owner -- slavery, and bring up whenever possible the vast Arab trade in black African slaves, and their being castrated on the spot, with only 10% surviving the forced march to the slave-markets of Dar al-Islam.
There is so much to work with. But someone, some groups, some churches, some security services, have to stop seeing Islam as merely a religion and see it for what it is: a totalitarian system for imposing thought-control, a Total Regulation of Life that is based on a division of the world between Believer and Infidel, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb, and which requires uncompromising hostility between the two, until the final triumph of Islam, which "must dominate and is not to be dominated."
Goobs-
that Wafa Sultan link:
Atheist or not, its like someone filled with the Holy Spirit. isn't that a wonderful link? Wafa Sultan is my #1 Lady!
Look at her. THIS is what a free human being looks like.
As a Jew to hear what she says about Jews is tremendously touching.
To top it all, I understand she spoke in perfect Classical Arabic that few men could equal and used classical rhetorical rhythms, styles and flourishes that Muslim women are not supposed to be capable of.
What this country needs is to proclaim that Islam is not a religion but a militant ideology and therefore to banned.
Re: "Note how he uses indignation to try to divert the questioner."-Robert
"Indignation is the soul's defense against the wound of doubt about its own; it reorders the cosmos to support the justice of its cause. It justifies putting Socrates to death. Recognizing indignation for what it is constitutes knowledge of the soul, and is thus an experience more philosophic than the study of mathematics."
- Allan Bloom "The Closing of The American Mind"-page 71
Just as arrogance is a compensation and cover for insecurity, indignation is a compensation and a cover for doubts about one's beliefs. It's a defense against thought. It is at bottom a fear to engage the reason in the critical examination and analysis of the facts re a belief system that is clutched to in desperation. The last argument of such a person must be violence.
FROM ALI SINA.......
My rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of the Muslims but on the bad teachings of its holy book and on the bad deeds of its founder. Many cruelties and heinous acts of violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by the Quran and the Sunnah (the examples of the prophet). That is why I condemn ISLAM for the bad things that Muslims do. Any effort to humanize Islam is a waste of time. The obstacle to any reform is Quran. The enemy is Islam and that is the target of my attacks. I do that, despite knowing that I have become the magnet of the hatred of fanatical Muslims and my own life could be in danger. Yet I know that by eradicating Islam we can save the world from the dangers of a catastrophe that otherwise is looming over our heads and could cause more disaster than the 1st and 2nd World Wars combined. Eradication of Islam means restoring peace among humanity and civility, democracy and prosperity in the Muslim world http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/why_I_left_Islam.htm
Thomas Paine, Your comments remind me of the question asked to two people, one who always lies and the other who always tells the truth. Since lying in Islam is condoned and even encouraged, how can the answers be trusted? I guess that if both admit to being mere nominal Muslims, the rule should be to mistrust them both. The answer must be found by observation. If they are men, see if one of them would shake hands with a kuffar woman, or eat a ham sandwich, or allow their wife to go shopping alone. There are many many other ways to uncover a true believer. A real good way to find the truth is to touch an Arabic Quran and observe the reactions. If your head is immediately separated from your torso, then at least one of them was a true belieiver.
Taqiyyah, kitman, lies and obfuscation. Yep, they're muslims all right.
Every citizen in Western countries should be required to swear an oath of allegiance to their host country. Those who refuse should be deported
elsewhere...A few more atrocities in the West will make this mandatory-a pity innocent civilians have to die before dithering authorities plug this gap in Homeland Security.
I've noticed that avoiding answering questions directly is a common islamic trait. Most muslims possess it. Why is that?
What this country needs is to proclaim that Islam is not a religion but a militant ideology and therefore to banned.
Posted by: ssa at July 31, 2006 07:28 PM
Sooner or later, for the security of American Nationality, this will have to be done, yes!
Every citizen in Western countries should be required to swear an oath of allegiance to their host country. Those who refuse should be deported
elsewhere...A few more atrocities in the West will make this mandatory-a pity innocent civilians have to die before dithering authorities plug this gap in Homeland Security.
Posted by: Morgane ....The oath wont mean anything....they are allowed to lie to non-Muslims...only the oath to Allah matters.
How much longer will Americans keep playing with this cult of death, islam. Repeadedly we are told how they feel about America, our values, freedoms, desires to achieve. They state over and over where their loyalties are. This cult does not belong in America, or any free nation. One day we will pay the price.
"Islam, which "must dominate and is not to be dominated."
Hugh-
It's a very insecure male religion. I'm not surprised at the Arab "trade in black African slaves, and their being castrated on the spot, with only 10% surviving the forced march to the slave-markets of Dar al-Islam." I guess Freud's "penis envy" applies to those Arab males. That type needs to control women.-LOL
Guys like that (control-freaks) appear to me as if they just dropped in from Mars. In any case, at the core of this religion there is a fear of women-hence the need to dominate-to control. I think my hunch is right on this.
"I've noticed that avoiding answering questions directly is a common islamic trait. Most muslims possess it. Why is that?"
Posted by: kosovo
I've struggled with that (and the whole taqiyya thing) as well. Fjordman wrote an article (Twin Myths of Eurabia) recently describing attacks on a photographic display dealing with the pogrom against Greeks in Istanbul on 9/6/1955. The vandals claimed they were "defending their country". Just replace country with Islam (which is what they really meant), and a picture emerges of individuals who don't CARE that something is true, or that it happened, and don't self-flaggelate the way Westerners do, trying to "learn" from it. They are just defending Islam, sometimes with lies, sometimes with silence or obfuscation. It doesn't matter to them that it is not worth defending.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012318.php
Kosovo, to them we are infidels. They don't have to be honest with us because their religion teaches them that they are superior and we are inferior.
Why is this hard to understand? Why is it hard for members of Congress, attempting to deal with immigration matters, not paying to this?
Who knows what motivates members of Congress? It certainly isn't logic.
Look at all the supposedly devoted environmentalist democratic Senators that voted for a bill with the long term impact of crowding up to 100 million new bodies into this country. Bit of an environmental impact there, is there not?
But somehow never mentioned......as the ostrich hides its cowardly head in the sand. Same with the uncomfortable notion that multiculturalism isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that it might even be dangerous.
"What this country needs is to proclaim that Islam is not a religion but a militant ideology and therefore to banned."
And if they refuse to give up Islam, deport them back to Arabia where they will feel more at home since they will not be welcomed here.
Certainly not a surprise. Muslims free free to lie, it is practically demanded of them in their Kuran - in order to defeat "the enemy". Muslims are the 5th column in the USA. I wonder how long it will take before non-muslim america responds....
Deport him the likes of college professors such as Ward Churchills who call the victims of 9/11 "little Eichmanns" immediately. Strip them of their American citizenship. Let them live among their Islamic brethren they so endear.
Thomas Paine - I have a third question to ask them. Since our own government is always trying to tell us that Islam is a 'religion of peace' and since Bush has even suggested that we have a common link in Abraham....I'd like to ask them...
IS ALLAH the same as JEHOVAH? Is Jehovah the God of the Muslims?
If something is different........it's not the same.
Allah is NOT simply an arab word for god. If it is not a proper NAME, then why is allah used in all muslim countries instead of the common name for god in their own language?
Allah is the moon god and is a demonic god that goes way back to Babylon.
Pelayo - I have a simple Biblical solution to what you are saying....observation IS key. The Bible tells us that we will "know them by their fruit". A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
The trees I've been watching blowing themselves up in cafes, lying, being filled with hate, being destructive, etc. are BAD trees.
Paul warned us in the Bible that ALL other religions are doctrines of demons. He was not refering to Biblical Judaism or Christianity, which share Jehovah God. He was refering to all the 'isms' and false gods etc. that were to come and even those which existed in his day - steming from Babylon.
So it stands to reason that if a religion IS a doctrine of demons, we should not be surprised that its followers produce such evil fruit.
I feel better now. Another multicultural success story.
ssa, I cannot find the verse in the Quran that says "When you are weak, be polite, until such time that you become numerous." could you please post the verse etc,, I think thatone is good to show our governemnts what they are up to..
AND The Goobs:
That vidoe is great, I have over 1050 videos which show clerics teaching few to thousands to hate the west and to kill infidels especially americans and their alies,, I cant for the life of me understand why the west still backs these countries, we are making them rich by buying their oil so really we deserve what we get...we know they kill people yet we still reward them, and our media doesnt tell the truth,,
Kosovo wrote:
I've noticed that avoiding answering questions directly is a common islamic trait. Most muslims possess it. Why is that?
.................
Insanely, some commentators actually tout this as a *virtue*. I have read numerous columns and political analysis talking about how "sophisticated" and "subtle" this is compared to Western, especially American, ways of dealing with people, which they imply is somehow simplistic or even simple-minded. Of course, Westerners are not always completely straightforward in negotiations, either--but they are much more likely to be. Honesty and candor are at least considered admirable traits.
Modern Westerners are also very prone to guilt--if someone reacts to a query in an indignant manner, they are likely to receive an apology from the questioner, who will often feel bad for having asked the question at all.