In an article in the New Duranty Times last year, Salman Rushdie wrote forcefully about the mistreatment of women in Pakistan (and also manifested some assumptions that he no doubt carries to this day):
IN honor-and-shame cultures like those of India and Pakistan, male honor resides in the sexual probity of women, and the "shaming" of women dishonors all men. So it is that five men of Pakistan's powerful Mastoi tribe were disgracefully acquitted of raping a villager named Mukhtar Mai three years ago. Theirs was an "honor rape," intended to punish a relative of Ms. Mukhtar for having been seen with a Matsoi woman. The acquittals have now been suspended by the Pakistan Supreme Court, and there is finally a chance that this courageous woman may gain some measure of redress for her violation.Pakistan, however, has little to be proud of. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says that there were 320 reported rapes in the first nine months of last year, and 350 reported gang rapes in the same period. The number of unreported rapes is believed to be much larger. The victim pressed charges in only one-third of the reported cases, and a mere 39 arrests were made. The use of rape in tribal disputes has become, one might say, normal. And the belief that a raped woman's best recourse is to kill herself remains widespread and deeply ingrained.
This was welcome, but as always with Rushdie, there was something not quite right. His emphasis is on the "cultural" aspects of mistreatment of women. There were in the article phrases about the "shame-and-honor" business that make it seem equally applicable to "Pakistan and India" and -- so the reader may at first understand and never quite clear up (perhaps Rushdie himself cannot quite clear up in his own brain)--that this is an indictment equally of "Muslim" Pakistan and "Hindu" India. He does go on to discuss the mistreatment, specifically, of a Muslim Indian woman by other Muslims, but one is still left with a slight unease that there is here more of the Ebadi-Mernissi-Ahmad "Islam has nothing to do with the mistreatment of women -- it is all a cultural thing."
Women have been mistreated everywhere in the world, for a long time. Sometimes less badly, sometimes worse. In the Western world, slowly but surely, that mistreatment has been constrained, punished, made the object of both legal sanction and societal disapproval. In the subcontinent one can found both Muslim and Hindu women who suffer. But Rushdie would have us believe that these sufferings are from the same kind of "cultural" factors. Are they, in fact? Or is the mistreatment of Hindu women possibly related to the centuries of Muslim rule, Muslim ways, that left their mark? I do not know.
But if one looks in Europe, at the two places where, for a while, Muslims ruled, one finds elements that can be attributed to that rule.
The two "would-that-it-were-so" remarks in Spanish ("Ojala" followed by the subjunctive) and in Italian ("Magari" -- most often now found standing alone) do not appear to have one-word cousins in the languages of other European countries that never endured the inshallah-fatalism of Muslim rule. The daughters of Albion were never introduced to the sisters of Inna.
Similarly, something like the honor-killings -- the crimes of passion, in Sicily, and the distinguishing features of the Mafia, not always to be found in the 'ndrangheta of Calabria, and the camorra of Naples (Doctoral students of Islam, Italy, history, sociology, psychology -- take careful note, for this is a very good topic for a doctoral thesis), can be related to the Muslim footprint, handprint, imprint.
Only someone versed in Hinduism can tell us if the status of Hindu women, in the villages, is a matter of "culture" or a matter of Muslim influence internalized, or a matter of Hindu doctrine.
But there is still something wishy-washy about Rushdie. He just can't face up to Islam as it is. He will never attain to the condition of an Ibn Warraq. He can't go the distance. He can't really read deeply in Islam, or in the history of Islam, and figure out why his own ancestors must have converted from Hinduism to Islam, thus leading him to the rather uneasy condition he finds himself, despite his fame and beautiful Hindu wife, now and forever.
He is one more of those "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims who cannot bring himself, out of fear (quite understandable under the circumstances), to admit that Islam has not been a force for good on those who were forcibly converted, and that it limits artistic expression, scientific inquiry, and in general, stunts mental growth -- as any Total Regulation and Total Explanation of the Universe, based on some texts of the 7th to 9th centuries, is highly likely to be.
The shame-honour culture is tribal. Islam elevated tribal values to the status of a religion and political system valid for all time.
The shame-honour culture is not unique to Islam and countries that were once ruled by it. Japan had it and still has it. Attitudes to women in the Far East are not as bad as those Muslim countries, but they fall far short of Western standards.
I think that Western civilisation, specifically the Anglosphere, treats women better than other cultures because it places the individual at the centre. Cultures that have the tribe or family as the basic unit invariably treat women badly.
The West, specifically the Anglosphere, is uniquely good in this respect. Other cultures come close only insofar as they imitate us. Islamic culture is worse than most because of the divine status ascribed to the values of 7th century Arabia.
Salman Rushdie is irritating in his unwillingness to name Islam as the culprit. He's irritating for all sorts of reasons. Even his face is irritating. And his books are overrated.
Only someone versed in Hinduism can tell us if the status of Hindu women, in the villages, is a matter of "culture" or a matter of Muslim influence internalized, or a matter of Hindu doctrine.
Well Hindus have practised some abominable customs like Sati and Jogini in the past. Since Hinduism has a boundless capcity for incorporating many beliefs into, they were generally a localised phenomenon practised in specific areas of India (Sati was prevalent in Bengal while Jogini waspractised in Southern India).
It is also worth nothing that Rajputs used to practise the custom of jauhar (i.e the practise of self-immolating oneself after the death of a husband in war) solely for the fear that Muslims may rape their women.
Frankly speaking yes position of men is indeed elevated in rural India but not to the extent of Islamic societies.
Vikrant
Sati was a rare practice in pre-Islamic India - women who were widowed did live a miserable existance that was nothing to write home about, but in no way was the cremation of live widows mandatory. In the Hindu epics, almost nobody committed Sati. If this was religiously mandated, every widow should have.
It became common once Islam came along, just as Jauhar did. While Jauhar was committed once a city fell to Muslim invaders (it never happened before or subsequently during Hindu on Hindu wars), Sati was usually committed so that the widow wouldn't become fodder of Muslim rulers. Nonetheless, it was abominable.
What was Jogini?
Infidel Pride, did the age of the widows have anything to do with the Sati? If the widow was young and of childbearing age, it's looks like she would have still been marriageable, whereas the older women may have felt there was no future without their husbands.
in no way was the cremation of live widows mandatory
Hmm. For a less rosy view, see here.
It was "voluntary" in the sence that suicide of women in Muslim countries who have offended against "honour" codes is "voluntary".
Outside the West, and those countries influenced by the West, women's rights are all but non-existent. Islam is the worst offender, but Hinduism is not much good either. In India its excesses have been tempered by British influence and by secularism.
Islam is the worst offender, but Hinduism is not much good either. In India its excesses have been tempered by British influence and by secularism.
Really Interested? Forgot the witch burnings so easily? Though i wouldnt contest the British influence part, Hinduism like X'nity has reformed itself. Ofcourse Hinduism is still undergoing reform, but you have to grant it to them, they've reigned in on their religion. There have been only a handful (37 or so) Sati incidents this century.
Forgot the witch burnings so easily?
I heard on QI from Stephen Fry - so it must be true - that no witches were actually burnt. They were hanged or drowned. But, no, I haven't "forgotten" them.
Hinduism is reforming, sure. But it is only in the West that men and women have anything approaching equality. Outside the West, countries have to take a leaf out of our book. Some do this more than others. India, with its abortion of female foetuses, has a long way to go.
The reason for the superiority of the West in this, as in other areas, is the emphasis on the individual, as opposed to the tribe or family.
India, with its abortion of female foetuses, has a long way to go.
Punjabi/Haryanvi concept. Do not generalise with us here. There is one matriarchial Kashtriya community in Kerala called Nairs.
abortions of female foetuses does take place in many Northern Indian states but again it is not ordained by Hinduism or Sikhism. Its is Punjabi-Hindi cultural concept.
Fair enough. My main point, and you may well not agree with this, is that the West, particularly the Anglosphere is exceptional in its treatment of men and women as (something like) equal. Islam and other non-Western cultures don't come close. However, Islam, because it is unable to change is a hopeless case. Other cultures and religions have the possibility of change, following our example. Indeed, if they resist Islamisation and we don't they may end up better than us in this respect.
Interested
"He's irritating for all sorts of reasons. Even his face is irritating."
Sure. It's a bunch of unsettling, sloppily designed features, a mix of cunning/lechery, self-absorbtion, and fear/anxiety. His face must have been one of the reasons he married a Miss India. He married this second time with a mind to his past-Khomeini, media-conscious career. The satyr and the nymph.
His face must have been one of the reasons he married a Miss India.
That was probably his money.
"Really Interested? Forgot the witch burnings so easily? "
The West is superior because it has changed itself for the good more deeply and broadly than any other culture.
Anything that changes itself for the good must have faults, else there would be nothing to change.
Vikrant seems to think that if a system (or culture) has faults, then it can't be superior.
The point is not the existence of faults -- all things in this life have faults and are imperfect: the point is to what degree does an individual, a system, or a culture change for the better. The West has changed for the better far more than any other culture.
While Indian civilization has many wonderful aspects, it was, and remains, inferior on the level of social ethics and social progress (much of its social progress now is due to the influence of the British).
This attitude of Vikrant's (shared by many others I'm sure) is precisely the kind of crypto-anti-Western crap that is currently hobbling our anti-Jihad efforts.
Interested
I wasn't trying to paint a rosy picture. I agree that on a social level, the West does have a superior culture than non Western cultures. However, beyond the obvious points that these aren't endorsed by Hinduism (something that the link you provided seems to butress, rather than contradict), I was pointing out that in pre-Islamic India, when Hindus were free to implement social norms as they sought fit, it was rare. Here is what I have from 'The history and culture of the Indian People - The Classical Age' by Dr RC Majumdar: since I can't find this online, I'll post the relevant part of what it says:
May be more than you wanted to know, but the second paragraph answers freewoman's question re: whether re-marriage was allowed. Note that I condemn sati being available, even as an alternative, as described above. But the point to be made is that in an India where Hindus were free to make all their rules themselves, Sati was an abominable exception, rather than the rule, and in the cases where it was advocated, the evidence seems to be that it was the alternative, rather than the primary option.Freewoman, it makes no mention of any distinctions based on the age of the brides.
Vikrant, tu quoque arguments about burning wiccans are no way to go. Either rebut the perceptions, as above, or face up to it if the evidence backs it, and condemn it.
TV
Vikrant's references to witch burnings are an apples to apples comparison with sati - albeit a tu quoque rebuttal. I'm assuming that this discussion alludes to what was superior, rather than what is.
No, a lot of the social progress that has taken place over the last 15 years - can't credit or blame the Brits for any of that. You would be right if you were to assume that a lot of that has been a result of globalization e.g. Indian society getting a major peep into what goes on in western culture, courtesy TV shows like Dallas, Melrose Place, et al. For instance, divorce, which was a stigma when I was growing up, is now very common. So is pre-marital sex, although women still tend to do that only with men they intend to marry. So it is partly correct to credit the West with the breaking of taboos in Indian society, but to say that that's a result of colonialism is wrong, since the India from 1950 to 1990, vs the India of today, are almost 100 years apart. The only aspect where India is still behind is homosexuality, which is still frowned upon, and gays are expected to be in the closet.Mostly I agree with Hugh, but I still think that by Muslim standards that Rushdie is a pretty brave and honest guy. Many other Muslims are not simply attributing misogyny to tribal customs rather than explicitly to Islam--they are actively extolling it.
When the Satanic Verses first came out several bookstores in the Bay Area were warned against carrying it, and much to their shame several shops pulled it from their shelves.
Cody's Books in Berkeley continued to sell the book and were firebombed one night. I don't think they ever caught the perpetrator. Thankfully, no one was injured and they were open again in a couple of days. It would be understandable if they had caved at this point. They did not. They put up a big sign at the front of the store and said they understood if customers did not feel safe shopping there, but that they had to stand on principles. They also offered to continue to pay any employees who didn't feel secure coming in to work. *Everybody* came back.
Cody's just closed after 40 years in Berkeley. I hope that other booksellers would be as brave.
The Italian "magari." The Greeks today say MAKAPI. Albert Thumb in his Handbook of the Modern Greek Language (to my mind another indispensible candidate for reprinting by Dover) gives as an example "MAKARI NA ZHSH XILIA XPONIA." But Thumb is chock full of interesting dialectical and archaic words and expressions so I can't vouch for its currency. Presumably it derives from the classical MAKAPIOS (blessed, happy, used of both gods and men).
I do know that my wife (and her (girl)friends -- I have never heard a man use the expression -- make of that what you will, I observe only) uses the expression "EINAI GRAMMENO." If I am feeling particularly priggish, I remind her that we are Christians and that nothing is "written." It has often struck me that the (very) few things I dislike about Greeks appear to my untutored eye to be related to the 500-year Turkish yoke.
I'm only a fascinated, sympathetic outsider, but I note that in his Roumeli, Patrick Leigh Fermor provides a witty, insightful, and only half-tongue-in-cheek summary of the opposing characteristics of two modern Greek types, the Romios and the Hellene (practice/theory; the concrete/the abstract; belief in quick returns/reliance on the long view -- you get the idea). His Item No. 27 is "fatalism/philosophic doubt."
Not surprising that the poster with his large stock holdings in Dover Books (I recall his previously praising Dover editions of Gesenius's Hebrew, Zoega's Icelandic Grammar, Wright's Arabic Grammar), the man who in another posting alluded to the ineluctable modality of the visible, though not necessarily either on Bloomsday or on the day Bloomsday was celebrated at JW this year, June 17 (the party banners were put up a day late), would be intrigued by "Magari" and offer something of great interest.
He suggests the word comes from the Greek, and therefore, one assumes, from the time of Magna Graecia in what is now Sicily. Convincing, but before accpeting this, should one not consider the possiblity that the word in modern Greek might owe its presence to Ottoman rule in Greece, and may be a word from the Arabic via Ottoman Turkish? This needs further investigation. About "Ojala"'s origins there can be no doubt. About "Magari" -- Greek, or Arabic, or Arabic through Greek?
If you find out more, let me know.
I am pleased to be able to give back even a little bit of the immense pleasure I have received in reading this website and its archives over the past year or so. Despite a long interest in Israel, I'm afraid I must remain a "taker" on these matters. I have learned much from both editors and reader-posters, and -- for all it is worth to me these days -- compiled many reading lists. (And while I am at it, may I mark with a whiter stone the names of Eliyahu and Provoslavni?)
For what it's worth, my wife confirms the currency of makari in modern Greek. (And may I proudly -- and a bit OT as you internet chappies say -- note that she hails from Nafpachtos, the quondam Lepanto, the quondam NAUIIAXTOS?)
As to the origins and history of makari, I'm afraid I have nothing more to add. It has been years since I had easy access to the Berkeley library, but anyone who can get to a good college library might want to look it up in N. ANTRIOTHS's ETYMOLOGIKO LEXIKO THS NEAS ELLHNIKHS. (Pardon the all-caps, they do get annoying, but often they are the best way to transcribe something.) But folks who know more about these things than I do tell me that Andreotis's etymologies are often speculative -- no "saffron-bearers" among them, but close.
Further OT (good Lord, next thing you know I'll be noting that something is LOL or attaching one of those ghastly emoticons to a submission), whatever happened to that hideous man who was trying to prove, among other things, that 60% or more of the ancient Greek vocabulary was of Semitic stock? A commie Sinologist as I recall, who I'm sure would find any "philosophic doubt" on this issue to be racist. Perhaps makarios, and thus makari, is, like everything else, ultimately from Egypt? (Actually, I thought Makarios was from Cypress. LOL.)
And I suppose if anyone is running off to the library to track all this down, they might also want to take a look at Meyer-Luebke's Romanisches etymologisches Woerterbuch re the Italian "magari." Though for various reasons I would encourage anyone to buy this work if they ever run across it. There used to be an expensive used version that regularly floated in and out of Black Oak Books in Berkeley, apparently nobody could afford to own it for long despite its great interest, not with the rent coming due. (Is there a German Dover?) A friend of mine owned it for a while before he sent it back on its wanderings. He said it worked marvels with the ladies -- an invitation to look at nude prints had nothing on "would you like to come up and look at my Meyer-Luebke?"
The comment about everything coming from Egypt I hope was a joke, and not meant as an endorsement of Martin ("like father like son") Bernal's "Black Athena."
Even dearer than any of Meyer-Luebke's many works on the etymology, and historical grammar, of Italian, French, Catalan, is Luick's "Historische Grammatik der Englischen Sprache," 2 vols. Going like hotcakes. Only one remaining. Let me know.
thanks for the kind words, Marc.
I have long wanted to understand the exact meaning of the Italian word "magari," if it has one. If you say it is almost always used by women in Greek, that does help in understanding the Italian usage. In Italian, I have seen it in print used by men. It seems that in Italian it often means Really or Especially--Correct me if I'm wrong.
As to Semitic words in ancient Greek, there are some. But these are almost all from Canaanite and they are nowhere near 60%. Now, long before Bernal said anything like that, Victor Berard, a more reliable researcher [and others] pointed out these Canaanite words, especially in the area of trade goods, foods and spices imported from the East/Levant, nautical terms, and place names. Berard, who was connected to the French navy, if I recall rightly, sailed around the Mediterranean searching for place names whose characteristics matched meanings for Canaanite words. For example, Monaco he related to menuhhah or menuhhoh [rest in Hebrew; both Hebrew and Phoenician are Canaanite languages, as the Prophet Isaiah and Josephus [in Against Apion] said]. In other words, the bay at Monaco was a restful harbor for ships. Likewise, Cape Amorgo in the Greek isles he traced back to margo`a, tranquillity in Hebrew. The Phoenicians as you know were of course the most famous sailors of the ancient Mediterranean. Further, the word "map" [apparently from Latin "mappamundi"?] comes originally from the Canaanite/Hebrew for "tablecloth." As for Martin Bernal he is not reliable, which does not mean that he is always wrong. But he tries to stretch the Egyptian connection too far. On the other hand, there was a Greek trading colony, Naukratis, in Egypt from the 7th century which would have been a channel for cultural influence in both ways. What does this have to do with the Arabs? The ancient East was a center for civilization/s/. The Arab conquest wrecked the ancient civilizations of the East. Far from representing the East, the Arabs were its wreckers.
Infidel Pride,
Agree with you. Pre-marital sex and divorces are the result of our getting 'Westernised'. You know how bad it has become over here ? Some of my friends actually sought girls for marriage (some are still seeking) who were not over educated after one of our friends had a messy divorce 2 years after marriage. The lady in question was an MBA, and just 15 days after marriage, left for her job in another city, leaving our friend alone. He met her once a quarter, and things went bad, marriage landed on the rocks, and his nervous breakdown. Watching that happen, some of us vowed not to marry any over educated girl who placed career over a home. Ambition ruins homes. I am not saying that women should not work, but I think that a home comes first, then a job.
In the villages, one sees simple people with simple philosophies. They want to create a happy home, and both man and wife strive for it. Women work in the fields with their menfolk, no gender bias, but men do tend to have, what we might call as 'male chauvinistic tendencies'. I call it chivalry.
Foeticide in any form is considered to be a major sin in Hinduism. It happens only in a few places.
As for gender equality ; I visit a lot of villages, and have been to the homes of many a Kshtriya. The females rule the interior, the males have the outer rooms and wings. It is also a common sight to see a fierce Kshtriya male heading out of his house, after being yelled at by his Kshtriyani (wife), shaking his head and muttering 'women'. Wife beating was never a part of Hinduism.
To Hugh: joke.
To Eliyahu (and Hugh): my dictionary-only understanding of the Italian magari is that it means the same as the Greek makari: "if only/would that -- something were true." In Greek it is followed by the modal particle "na" and either the subjunctive or the imperfect. I think it can stand alone also, as Hugh reports magari can. I would ask my Informant if it can, but she is starting to get irritated with my philological (lovely word!) questioning -- I am put in mind of Johnson's exasperated reply to Boswell, "I will not be put to the question. Don't you consider, Sir, that these are not the manners of a gentleman? I will not be baited with what and why; why is a cow's tail long? why is a fox's tail bushy," and refrain. And it was the expression "einai grammeno" that I thought I heard only from women -- it means "it is written" and I associate it with coffee-cup reading and matutinal reference to the ubiquitous "Oneirokrites" (dream books). However, I am informed that both men and women use that expression -- I find it equally deplorable in both.
Victor Berard is to me only a name out of Kenner on Pound -- which I mention with trepidation as I believe Hugh would strongly disapprove on both counts. It seems to me that Cyrus Gordon made a much stronger, less tendentious case than Bernal for Semitic-Greek contacts and influences -- and without the Saidean flapdoodle accusations of racism against all but a few past scholars and anyone who currently disagrees. In fact, the very existence and reputation of Gordon pretty much refutes the whole of Bernal's first volume.
Victor Berard -- wasn't he used by Joyce as a guidebook or source for details about the Greeks and the Phoenicians and the Mediterranean and wily Odysseus?
You are right about my reaction to the name "Pound" and, to a much lesser extent, "Kenner" though of course the reasons in both cases are interconnected.