An update on this story from Click2Houston (thanks to Cindy): "Man Loses Job, Put On Terror List After Airport Incident"
HOUSTON -- A Jordanian man says his life has been thrown into turmoil since he was briefly detained at Hobby Airport last month, an incident that prompted airport security officials to re-evaluate their system.
Mohamed Ahwar Bataineh, 31, was flying to Atlanta for a truck-driving job on June 26 when airport screeners stopped him at the security checkpoint.
Here's the first red flag. Everyone who has brought a laptop with them on a plane knows it has to be taken out and separated from other items for security screening. Finding the alarm clock, battery, and hollowed-out shoes simply heaps on more suspicion.
A Transportation Security Agency report, obtained by the Houston Chronicle, said Bataineh shook his head when screeners asked if he had a laptop computer in his baggage. But an X-ray machine detected a laptop and screeners also found an alarm clock with a battery taped to it. They also said Bataineh was wearing shoes they suspected had been "gutted out."
Keystone Kops Alert: The screeners call the local police, who heave a sigh of relief when the clock works, and send him on his way.
But instead of alerting the FBI, the screeners called a Houston police officer to investigate Bataineh. Officer J.O. Reece examined Bataineh's shoes, then put the battery in the clock and found that it functioned properly, said Reece's attorney, Chad Hoffman.
Reece found no reason to detain Bataineh and he was allowed to enter the boarding area, over protests from the screeners, according to the TSA report.
But the TSA's hands aren't clean here, either:
Officials said the FBI has the primary responsibility for responding to suspected terrorist activities at airports, with agents stationed on site and a special squad positioned to respond immediately. But the TSA only notified the FBI two days after the incident involving Bataineh, FBI spokeswoman Shauna Dunlap said.
Since the incident, Bataineh said he's lost his job and been connected to terrorism unfairly.
Well, he should have taken out his laptop, for starters. But there's more:
Another TSA report obtained by the Chronicle states that, because of the incident, Bataineh was at least temporarily put on a list of terrorists, partly because he has "a direct relationship with a person of interest" on that list.
Federal officials won't identify the "person of interest," but law enforcement officials acknowledge that such a relationship does not necessarily mean Bataineh knows of that person's possible terrorist activities.
[...]
And now for an impressive set of excuses:
Bataineh said the shoes had not been "gutted out," but that he had simply removed the insoles because the shoes were old and worn. He added that he told the screeners he had taped the battery into the clock because he had lost the plastic cover for the battery compartment.
Still, the TSA said Bataineh now is on a watch list for special inspection at airports. Being on those lists could complicate life for Bataineh, who flies to Jordan to visit his wife when he can. He's also been trying to bring his wife and child to the U.S. and has applied for American citizenship.
"This is crazy. This is stupid," Bataineh said.
Bataineh said he lost his job with the Atlanta trucking company shortly after FBI agents questioned him for about three hours at the company's offices. The agents later cleared him of any links to terrorism and called the airport incident "a non-event," but he said they still have not returned his laptop.
The TSA and the Houston Police Department, meanwhile, are pointing fingers at each other.
The federal agency's report blames Reece, but police officials say their officers are not authorized to prevent people from boarding airliners. Reece has since been transferred to a desk job and HPD has started an investigation.
The incident also led the TSA to call a June 29 meeting of agencies involved in airport security. The incident will be discussed at a meeting Wednesday, said Richard Fernandez, spokesman for the Houston Airport System.
Bataineh's situation also prompted Assistant U.S. Attorney Abran "Abe" Martinez, head of the regional anti-terrorism task force, to call the agencies involved "to make sure that nothing like this ever occurs again."
Send the man back to Jordan, and fill up his shoes to blast when he lands there.
I feel so much better knowing this was all a mistake (sarcasm off).
I am sure this will all be called ‘racial profiling” even though islam is not a race. Here is a thought, if you even remotely suspect you might have a problem at the airport, obey all rules to the letter. Yes, everyone has rights and yes that does mean you can make a real fool of yourself and hold up the line for all the normal people but sometimes, just sometime, try and get along. This is the real world boys and girls, if you have connections even remote ones with terrorists, islam or both, you will find people watching you. You have a right to practice your faith and others have a right and a duty to protect others from you. I have a right to wear a sheet and carry a burning cross but if I do that at an airport, I would expect to be beaten to death by fellow travelers or arrested and detained by airport security. Carrying anything even remotely resembling a bomb should get the same treatment. This guy is guilty of more than just being stupid, we can not nor should we ever let anyone off the hook for causing trouble in public areas. I do not know Mr Bataineh but worst case he was testing security procedures, best case he is stupid. The only victim in this story is us (the American people), now the PC types will demand security procedures be relaxed so as not to bother peaceful travelers carrying suspicious items.
I travel often and I go out of my way to sit next to muslims, I normally do so holding one of Roberts books, I like to use my rights to sit where I want and read what I want. On the other hand, I have never held up the line by lying about what I was carrying, or testing security procedures and then whining when I am caught. I hope Mr Bataineh finds it impossible to fly in and out of the US he deserves it.
Hmmm, that did not come out right, I do not wear sheets nor burn crosses. You can beat me if I ever do.
Hey welcome back JW/DW.
"This is crazy. This is stupid," Bataineh said.
There's the clue, the kettle calling the pot black and diverting the attention on to security measures, measures we have to take to keep these maniacs at bay. If the shoe was on the other foot and Jordan was under such threats he'd still be in a cell now pleading for mercy...
Another whiny muslim male. WAAH WAAH WAAAHH
Grow up. Get a brain. Islam is rotting you away.
It is rotten beyond salvage already.
I wonder what the people who followed him through the screening process thought. I sure as h#ll wouldn't have boarded that plane with him on it.
TSA screeners, who are our first line of defense generally receive very little respect from the traveling public and very little support from the powers that be.
True. many have behaved in ways that are unprofessional and TSA should take a serious look and weed out those that are not doing their jobs, but this case has a silverlinning in that this guy was caught. The laptop was found.
We are safer because they are there, but they are unarmed facing potential trouble, even if the local police never far away.
Who would want to put themselves at risk for relatively low pay, doing a thankless job, with little authority?
We would be safer still, if were to upgrade the screener work force, their titles have been recently changed to Federal Officers, now let's train, arm them and give them the same authority as FBI and Customs.
And give them the say as to who flies and who does not, and back them up if mistakes are made. I would rather have one thousand mistakes them one loss of life.
This is crazy. Our PC political class at the Federal level is neutered and won't have the will to address this until we get hit again.
How about local or State governments empowering screeners with ordinances (as is happening with illegal immigration) or ballot initiatives (as with gay marriage)?
The Federal debate over states taking a hard stand would be enlightening to all (and very entertaining for me).
There are alot of other reasons why people hollow out shoes. It is not just for shoe bombs. Hollow out shoes make excellent containers for smuggling gems, currency or narcotics. One should never rush to judgment.
You all DO know what kind of security is used on Israel Airlines EL AL?
The stats on their security are embarassingly high because of the vigilance they employ.
Need I say more?
There hasn't been one time since 9/11, that I've not gone through security TOTALLY barefooted. I have to remove my flip-flops to go through. I had bought a friend's son a ping pong paddle and at the OKC airport, was pulled aside to go through my luggage. I'm a middle aged woman, who, on my best day, couldn't overpower a flight attendant with a ping pong paddle even if I wanted to.
The muslims caused this. We should profile. I'm sorry that some get pulled over because of names or looks, but I want to get to where I'm going.
Alive and in one piece.
Inconvenienced? Tough beans.
Every time I fly, it seems, I'm one of those singled out for "random inspection." EVERY TIME. I was born here. I have a German last name. I'm so pale I look like a ghost. I've never been outside the country except to Canada. The only carry on I ever have is a purse not big enough for a laptop.
It gets annoying, certainly. And when I'm in a hurry or cranky I get irritated. But I deal with it. And I usually end up thanking them for their vigilance.
If some Jordanian who isn't even a citizen has a problem going through this, I have a suggestion. GO HOME AND STAY THERE. Buhbye. Don't let the door slam your ass on your way out.
Considering there were so many other suspicious circumstances here, they did impound his laptop, pending a detailed search of the hard disk, didn't they? Nothing to say they did. If not, why not?
"I'm NOT Middle Eastern and I have a Slavic not Islamic last name. On top of that the Ottoman Muslims raped and occupied my family's country of origin for 500 years. But yet I’m always put into a separate room to be search every time I enter an airport! That’s why I drive not fly any more."
Sorry for the inconvenience, but if we want a rational profiling system (even an unofficially rational one avoiding the label of "racial"), then people who look like most Muslims look will have to be, by a certain rational degree, more inconvenienced than others -- that includes Mediterranean types, black Africans, and SE Asians.
Currently, we seem to have a mix of
1) an unofficially rational profiling (where individual screeners and law enforcement take it upon themselves, here and there in varying degrees, to single out people who look like what most Muslims in the world look like, which is a rationally racial determinant)
and
2) an officially "color-blind" screening process, where people who look like Carrot Top, Dame Edna and Bea Arthur get a randomly equal treatment along with people who look like Geraldo Rivera and Omar Sharif and Idi Amin.
Sooner or later, we will have design and implement a rational profiling system to protect ourselves against Muslim terrorists. And since the vast majority of the world's Muslims are non-whites (with Arabic/Mediterranean, African and SE Asian physiognomies), that rational profiling system will not be able to avoid a degree of integration of racial factors.
Given our PC climate, it will probably take about another 10 major Muslim terrorist attacks in various large nerve centers of the West, with, oh, say, at least 500,000 dead, before we finally begin to consider implementing such a rational system.
Better unconscionably late than never, I suppose...
So what? He knows the rules when flying. He lied when he said he didn't have a laptop. That alone justifies detaining him. I bet you anything that more details will soon come out after they finish checking his computer.
Would he dare complain in any muslim country about the "unfair" treatment he's getting?
No matter what, I always appreciate the TSA when traveling. After 9/11, it is just another part of life - trying to save more lives from the fanatic muslim cult. This is all their doing.
So he wants to move back Jordan? Praise Allah. Let him go. Who cares.
1. Your name is Mohamad or wtfever
2. You lie about a laptop
3. You have an alarm clock with battery taped on
4. Your shoes look like they've been tampered with
5. You're from Jordan
Cry me a river. Go back to Jordan and never come back -- who cares!
If white, middle aged women commit terrorist activites then I expect that I, as a white middle aged woman, should be singled out for airport security special attention. I would be very worried if I'm not. Bring on profiling big time.
Does this not make you feel safer when you have to fly??????????????????
"He's [Mohamed Ahwar Bataineh, 31, who tried to board a plane with an undeclared computer, a clock with a battery attached, while wearing shoes in which the in-soles had been removed] also been trying to bring his wife and child to the U.S. and has applied for American citizenship."
-- from the article above
Should Mohamad Ahawar Bataineh's application be accepted? How did he get here in the first place? What office in Jordan gave him a visa? Who is working in that office? Have all such visas been halted, save for those whose governments post some kind of large bond per head -- as of course the rich Arab countries can ?
What if he were to be allowed to become a citizen, and to bring his wife and his (for now) child. What if he had another child, or ten children. What if he raised them to think as we have every reason to think, and not a single reason not to think, he does, as a loyal Muslim, which is to say not at all favorable, in fact permanently unfriendly or even murderously hostile to, Infidels. Do we owe those Infidels, that is ourselves, to take measures not to increase the numbers of people in our countries who, as a matter of belief and indoctrination that is, in its hold on people, equivalent to the brainwashing of the Nazis and the Communists, but more dangerous because tied up with it are other, understandable human emotions such as questions of identity and filial piety and sense of worth -- if everything you have is wrapped up in Islam, if you have been raised in a society that is Islamocentric, only the most advanced people will find their way out of Islam -- and how many Ibn Warraqs and Ali Sinas and Azam Kamguians and Irfan Khawajas and Ayaan Hirsi Alis are there, in any given population of Muslims? One out of a thousand? Ten thousand?
What would be the likely effect on Infidels, say on Jews and Hindus in a community, if Mohamed Ahwar Bataineh were to be permanently settled in? Would they be more safe, exactly as safe, much less safe, than before? Would there be any additional costs for the police and FBI and CIA associated with the presence of this Mohamed Ahwar Bataineh? Can you foresse any reasons why his cost to the larger society might be larger, say, than the cost of a non-Muslim immigrant from Italy, or Ecuador, or South Korea? Can you imagine that as his children grow up, and presumably learn English well, the better to present the outward face of Islam, the better to engage in debate and to defend Islam and to act as apologists for Islam, and then perhaps, while in school, to join the local Muslim Club and get active in its political activities, its demonstrations, its attempts to silence or attack non-Muslim groups, and then of course, later on, to become voters, to organize a Muslim voting bloc that will prevent politicians, in some areas, from opposing further Muslim immigration, or opposing measures to diminish OPEC revenues, or opposing instruments of the Jihad -- but instead, currying favor with Mohamed Ahwar Bataineh, his wife, their by-now many children, and perhaps even the other relatives who managed to follow them here.
Do you see any problem at all for American society, for its political and legal instutitions, its customs and understandings, its easygoing ways? Any reason to think there will be unusual expenses, unususal disruption of social harmony, unusual physical insecurities and worries that might naturally arise, from the presence of Mohamad Ahwar Bataineh, and others who bring in the same mental baggage -- undeclared, just as he forgot to declare that computer, that alarm clock, those hollowed-out shoes.
The 'Shoe-bomber...."
http://islamcomicbook.com/lyrics3.htm
How about this:
Ballot Initiative: __________
State of: _______________
We, the people of the State of ___________, hereby authorize and direct all Federal employees operating within our State to use all means possible to protect our Citizens, specifically mentioning racial and ethnic profiling.
Anyone circulating this petition would get their 10,000 (or whatever) signatures easily. My guess is that it would pass in any popular election with 70%+ of the vote. Just having the question on the ballot, with all of the attention it would generate, would give the conservative candidate a 5 point bounce.
Any lawyers out there?
My Dad, pushing 90 and a card-carrying disabled WWII veteran, flew home last fall for a visit and a peek at the foliage. While he was here his grandchild gave him a framed photo and he came across a lighter - empty for more than 5 decades - that had been personally engraved to him by a rather famous artist. Not knowing any better, he tried to take them back to FL with him. And this old, disabled war veteran was "profiled" - made to take off the shoes he can barely stand without, darned near missed his plane. It was only by sheer grace that my sister was standing by to take his items back home to mail. The TSA examiner tried really, really hard to keep that old zippo lighter.
Just shy of 90. Can barely walk. No moslem or arab name or lineage. Doesn't know a soul on the "watch list" - exactly the opposite.
I really do NOT understand what the heck is wrong with our country that we can harrass the elderly in the name of security but allow this kind of thing so as not to be accused of "profiling."
This really makes me angry, especially after reading gallopingranny's story. What a shame your dad had to go through that.
I'm also really surprised they weren't much tougher on theJordanian than they were. I have a mild disability and walk with a cane+==
. My right hand doesn't work well, either. Yet every time I've flown in the past33333333 (dang, new kitten helping to type!) 3 years, I've had to take off my shoes, hand over my cane to walk through screening (I use it for balance problems, and you all can guess how this always ends - and I hate falling down in front of others!). I also have always had to boot up my laptop, while standing up and holding it. With my bad balance and my one had which drops stuff. Why the security guys can't do a thorough search of a man with hollowed out shoes but can give a middle-aged lady a very difficult time is just beyond me.
I honestly don't mind being searched. I don't mind other middle-aged women being searched, or those with disabilities. What I really mind is someone like Batineh not being searched thoroughly.
Why don't we just have all Muslims wear arm bands with a crescent and then put them in a part of town and lock them up there?! Why don't we put them all in trains and then just ship them off to camps where they can all be sent to allah with all their other mohommandens?!?1!!! jesus CHRIST WHEN WILL PEOPLE WAKE UP!!111
(sarcasm off) Honestly, the genocidal mentality of these proto-Nazis here is sickening, I'm not talking about radical Islamist extremists, but their mirror image. Which is apparently those that post at Jihadwatch.org
After seeing Israelis being attacked daily, and American soldiers killed while trying to maintain peace. My sympathy for any cause, let alone mayhem, is dwindling. There is no cause for the destruction imposed by jihadist's. When have you seen Israel respond unprovoked? The smallest of nations in a hotbed of hostility, and we can only say, defend yourselves? That is what they have been doing for, say how long? My question is, how many times has Israel fought to conquer, or has defended thine self? Mighty Israely army? Or mighty forces trying to squash the only true democracy in the middle east?
After seeing Israelis being attacked daily, and American soldiers killed while trying to maintain peace. My sympathy for any cause, let alone mayhem, is dwindling. There is no cause for the destruction imposed by jihadist's. When have you seen Israel respond unprovoked? The smallest of nations in a hotbed of hostility, and we can only say, defend yourselves? That is what they have been doing for, say how long? My question is, how many times has Israel fought to conquer, or has defended thine self? Mighty Israely army? Or mighty forces trying to squash the only true democracy in the middle east?
sarcasm off) Honestly, the genocidal mentality of these proto-Nazis here is sickening, I'm not talking about radical Islamist extremists, but their mirror image. Which is apparently those that post at Jihadwatch.org
Posted by: Sean12321 at July 16, 2006 11:08 PM
Sean, you seem to be the only one here right now that's asleep. Gee, I've never been called a "proto-nazi before; exactly what is that?
Are you by any chance a self-hating,left-wing, politically correct, moral relativist, multiculturalist diversicrat who wallows in denial and wouldn't recognize reality if it swallowed you whole?
Your "sarcasm on" suggestion sounds good to me, although I wouldn't "send them to allah", just back to the Islamic hell-holes from which they originated, where they can practice their vile religion with wild abandon and leave us alone.
Why don't muslim's do it themselves? Why is it our responsibility to stop those that kill? This train that you speak of has brakes. Those that kill should stop killing. Those that kill to stop the killing, well do the math. I have not seen your reference to concentration camps, all I have seen is a willingness for peace. Not a genocide of a species, nor a race, nor a creed slash peoples. What does Israel want? A right to live!
Shouldn't this be under "Dhimmi Watch"?
Just because the guy wasn't carrying explosives this time, doesn't mean he wasn't testing the system for weaknesses.
It's quite possible he wanted to see if a laptop wouldn't be detected after failing to declare it, if his hollowed out shoes would be noticed, etc.
He would then pass on his info up the chain of command....
Sean12321 when it comes to the choice if you and your family lives or mo that intends on murdering you and your family lives, WAHT DO YOU CHOOSE.
Because you will be faced with this choice in the future. It will be the free world or islam that will survive for islam is not compatable with freedom.
The Texican.
sarcasm off) Honestly, the genocidal mentality of these proto-Nazis here is sickening, I'm not talking about radical Islamist extremists, but their mirror image. Which is apparently those that post at Jihadwatch.org
Posted by: Sean12321
We don't like head-choppers and we are proto-Nazis ? What are the head-choppers? Do they get off the hook with you Sean?
gallopinggranny, it breaks my heart to hear that story, the system is unfair to loyal Americans. It is a disgrace, and we SHOULD PROFILE and leave our elderly and other average Americans with their respect.
TSO's are forced to do absurd things because the PC police is watching, but believe me, many do profile and at great risk of loosing their jobs.
We should demand a change to allow profiling.
Best wishes to your father.
Shame on those who oppose profiling.
That was a very ignorant statement by Sean. However, given the reports that whatsisname in Iran wanted to get Christians and Jews to wear identifying clothes, I wondered what would be the reaction of the Muslim community in the West if the West instructed ALL Muslim women had to wear the Hijab?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2273287,00.html
Train bombers 'funded by British businessmen'
From Daniel McGrory in Bombay
Indian officials claim that bogus charities are sending £8m to Kashmiri terror groups
SOME of the main fundraisers for the terror group suspected of masterminding the Bombay train bombings are operating from Britain, according to Indian intelligence officials.
The officials accuse Britain of failing to act against a number of wealthy businessmen, who they claim are using bogus charities to funnel up to £8 million a year to Kashmiri militants groups, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, which remains the main suspect for orchestrating the synchronised bombings that killed 182 people.
Manmohan Singh, the Indian Prime Minister, raised the terror link with Tony Blair at the G8 summit in St Petersburg yesterday, reminding him that India handed over a detailed dossier three years ago identifying 14 men living in Britain and was assured the suspects would be investigated.
“Since then nothing has been done, and the money still coming from Britain helps to pay for the terrorist camps where we believe the bombers were trained and this atrocity was planned,” a senior Indian security official said last night.
Gordon Brown pledged that the Treasury would use new laws to shut down terrorist fundraising and ordered that the bank accounts of 54 organisations be frozen, although records show that last year Whitehall only recovered £9,318.
“Britain talks about the need for all nations to get tough together, but more money comes from the UK to Kashmiri terror groups than any other country,” the official added.
One of those identified in the dossier is reported to be a Pakistan-born multimillionaire businessman who owns at least two luxury homes in London.
Professor Paul Wilkinson, of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews, said: “It is very sad the figure for the money still flowing to the likes of Lashkar has not been substantially reduced by now. It is difficult to track the money trail, but we should put more resources to doing so.”
The funding from overseas has helped terror groups to set up a string of new training camps in Bangladesh, close to the border with India.
Al-Qaeda-trained militants are reportedly running up to 13 camps, and MI6 and other Western intelligence agencies have been monitoring the traffic of young recruits to these centres including a number of volunteers based in Britain.
British security agencies had been warning that groups closely linked to al-Qaeda were planning to stage bomb attacks in India, using local sym- pathisers to carry out their operation.
Scores of Indian-based militants are alleged to have attended the al-Qaeda run camps near Bandarban and Chittagong. Security chiefs believe that the mastermind behind the bombing on seven commuter trains used one of these camps in Bangladesh to finalise plans for the attack.
Anti-terrorist officers involved in the hunt for the Bombay bombers travelled to the border town of Tripura yesterday to question 11 men from the port city who were said to have been caught trying to cross back into Bangladesh. The men are believed to be militant members of the outlawed (Student Islamic Movement of India), which police allege helped in the bomb plot.
Teams of armed officers continued with their mass round-ups yesterday, with further raids on a number of shanty towns around Bombay. So far they have detained more than 1,300 men, but the police face mounting public criticism at their failure to arrest anyone involved in the terror network that is believed to have been living in India’s financial capital for at least three months.
D. K. Shankaran, the chief secretary of Maharashtra state, of which Bombay is the capital, said last night: “We believe police will be able to zero in on the culprits within a week.”
As he left for St Petersburg Mr Singh, said: “We will impress upon the leaders gathered at the G8 summit that the international community must adopt an approach of zero tolerance toward terrorism anywhere.”
He also made a thinly veiled attack on Pakistan, which he has blamed for sheltering terrorists, adding: “The international community must isolate and condemn terrorists wherever they attack, whatever their cause and whichever country or group provides them sustenance and support.”
Talks planned for Thursday between the countries’ foreign ministers were postponed yesterday, with India’s Foreign Minister giving warning: “As a result of these terrorist attacks, it is becoming very difficult to take forward the peace process.”
Millions are expected to take part in a two-minute silence to be staged in Bombay tomorrow at the time of the first explosion. Bollywood stars who live in the city will join politicians, police and survivors of the attack in a public show of defiance against the terrorists.
He lied when he said he didn't have a laptop. That alone justifies detaining him.
Doesn't Islam allow lying in the name of Allah? Aren't muslims encouraged to lie to advance their hateful ideology? With this in mind isn't this man a good muslim?
Just a reminder as to why all races are searched and not just middle eastern types.
Years ago there was a young, blond haired, blue eyed, British girl who was pregnant and trying to board a plane. She was not acting suspicious in any way and did not fit any profile of any kind. Her luggage was checked (this was way before 9/11) though I can't remember the reason why. (I think she casually mentioned that her boyfriend had packed her suitcase for her.) There was a bomb. She had no idea it was there. Her boyfriend was a muslim from the middle east and she was innocently traveling there to meet up with his family and get married there. So she thought.
In reality, he had used her for sex until he could implement his plot, would not in any way marry her and shame his family. They did not even know she existed. He planted the bomb in her luggage to take the plane down. Her death and the death of his child meant nothing to him because she was not a muslim. To him she was an infidel whore. He had planned it all ahead of time and knew exactly what he was going to do to her from the moment he met her. She had no idea. He was not in any way a fanatic, so she thought. Just a normal guy. She was not a convert. He had treated her with respect in every way. She was in love.
With all the muslims attending colleges all over the world, there are more converts who are lilly white than ever. Unfortunately everyone must be ready to be checked. Even the wheelchair bound. Why? Because someone could slip something into their suitcase, into children's teddy bears (that has happened) into the diapers of babies (that has happened). Because muslims have no care for the lives of babies or anyone.
I think muslims really just need their own airlines. And trains. And countries.
think muslims really just need their own airlines. And trains. And countries.
posted by Borg.........
I concur! And muslim airlines should fly ONLY in muslim countries.
"Just a reminder as to why all races are searched and not just middle eastern types.
Years ago there was a young, blond haired, blue eyed, British girl..."
A rational profiling system that factors in race (because the vast majority of the world's Muslims are non-white) would not be a system that excludes whites from being part of the screening filter -- it would merely lean toward emphasizing the non-white preponderance that reflects the actual sociological complexion of Islam.
Rational profiling must always factor in data that reflect preponderance, because in real life, the total mass of data in question (particularly with demographics) is never monolithic, but has varying features.
This argument of the poster quoted above, is puerile and irrational, yet is commonly repeated, even by folks who should know better.
Yo Sean - There is a war on. What part of September 11th have you forgotten? Ever heard of a guy named Richard Reid? I miss the days of easy travel myself, and am not too wild about the fact that the Patriot Act has no sunset clause.Unfortunately we are at war with folks who will dance in the streets if a plane goes down. Even rats will defend themselves if backed into a corner.
I agree with billybob above - this picks up on our previous discussion of this topic, where we discussed 'granularizing' the profiles, as a follow-up on the initial profiling exercise. I agree with you above that the non-white profiles should be emphasized, but race shouldn't be the only factor in play here, but an initial filter. Let's say the screener picks up a non-White (although in this case, somehow, a Slav falls into this category): the follow-up steps should be able to quickly separate out non-Muslims, using things like names, language spoken, and other such criteria that can be used to tell potential terrorists from people who aren't.
In Israel, which faces a threat far greater in proportion, they do use profiling, but then, they are very good not only at separating out say, Indians or Slavs from Arabs (something that screeners here seem bad at), but they can even distinguish between, say Egyptians and Iraqis. I recall one Israeli security official describing the US screening process: "The Americans don't have a security system; they only have a system for bothering people." Point being that even if we don't get to the latter level of proficiency, there is a minimum standard that should be expected of screeners, which apparently they don't meet.
A few weeks following 9/11, I had to fly, and one of the things involved was removing my shoes. No problems there, but I did have problems following the screener's instructions - his English was abominable. When the issue of the (lack of) qualification of baggage handlers came up, the inane response of Congress, and then the Administration, was to federalize them, rather than fire those who didn't meet the standards. Also, only citizens should qualify for such jobs, and a minimum proficiency in English should be mandatory. Is that a part of the law, or did nationalizing that job function ostensibly 'solve' the problem?
puerile and irrational?
That IS the thinking. I think that all middle eastern types should be checked EVERY TIME. But the above story is also factored in. Not irrational by any means.
I don't think checks should be exclusively random.
"I agree with you above that the non-white profiles should be emphasized, but race shouldn't be the only factor in play here, but an initial filter."
I never said it should be the only factor. I am stuck on this first phase of the argument because that's where most everybody else is stuck -- either the PC crowd with their hysterical cries of "Islamophobic racism!", or with the Jihad Watch crowd with their silly "Islam is not a race" remark, which is unremarkably true but not pertinent to the creation of a rational profiling system. Of course, after racial factors are accepted in a rational profiling system, many other factors come into play; if they didn't and only race were being used, it would hardly be a rational system.
"Let's say the screener picks up a non-White (although in this case, somehow, a Slav falls into this category)..."
Some Slavs look more like Muslims, some look less like Muslims.
"...the follow-up steps should be able to quickly separate out non-Muslims, using things like names, language spoken, and other such criteria..."
I agree this should be part of the profiling protocol. However, clever Muslim terrorists are hardly going to say, "My name is Abdul bin Mohammed and I speak Arabic" -- not if they know we have a rational profiling system in place that is trying to screen out Muslims. How do we then distinguish between a Muslim-appearing non-Muslim Slav, on the one hand, and a Slavic-appearing Muslim who is effectively lying about his Muslim stats, on the other hand? My answer is, at some point in our screening process (depending on contextual factors, such as the venue where the screening is taking place (big nerve center or small place), the number of attacks perpetrated in the recent past, the degree of danger of an imminent attack, etc.,), we will have to go further and detain both gentlemen knowing full well that we will incur "collateral damage" -- i.e., most likely many of the ones detained will not be Muslims. No system (particularly when dealing with vast, sprawling millions of people in complex movement patterns) can avoid collateral damage; no system is flawless. There is no free lunch.
"In Israel, which faces a threat far greater in proportion..."
Israel is not a good example: Israel is a tiny postage-stamp of a country, therefore it is far easier to implement profiling. With a country as vast, sprawling, diverse, complex, and megapopulated as the USA, with gigantic borders, it is unfair to compare what we would have to do with a profiling system, vis-a-vis what Israel can, given their eensy-weensy size and simplicity of population and borders.
"[Israelis] are very good not only at separating out say, Indians or Slavs from Arabs (something that screeners here seem bad at), but they can even distinguish between, say Egyptians and Iraqis."
Of course, it is obvious that any such skills should always be incorporated, as best as possible, into any rational profiling system. Do you honestly think I would be opposed to the use of suck skills? My point is, with the monumentally different complexion of the USA (as explained above), and of Europe, such skills will not be a magic bullet: they will only help in modest, incremental ways.
The long and short of it is that sooner or later, we will have to implement a profiling system that will incur considerable collateral damage, precisely because we will have to widen our net to sweep up all those Slavs, Georgians, blacks and SE Asians who are not Muslims but who we rationally think, based on their racial appearance, could be. It's that simple. Either that, or suffer a million + casualties from 10 to 20 attacks on various large cities throughout Europe, North America, and Australia.
everything about this guy's story make sense. the only thing he did wrong was lie about the laptop. I can understand why he did, even if it was stupid. I guess I'm glad security is vigilant, but I can't help feeling sorry for the guy. The FBI couldn't wait until he was off work to question him?
Limes: lawyer here. I absolutely agree, such a petition would get plenty of signatures and make a candidate very popular.
But, no state or federal court would uphold it. The 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause requires all citizens to be treated equally under the law. The government cannot treat groups differently on the basis of race or ethnicity; and it doesn't matter if the law was created by a state legislature or a popular vote on a referendum. (Unless it's affirmative action, of course, a completely incoherent exception in my view.)
U.S. v. Korematsu, the 1942 Supreme Court decision upholding Japanese internment camps on the basis of a compelling government interest (national security), is the most recent race-based classification to pass Constitution muster, and it has since been overruled. Given the Supreme Court's recent hypersensitivity in matters impacting national security, I can't see *any* threat that the Court would approve as a basis for racial classifications.
In sum: courts will make an exception to the 14th Amendment for affirmative action ("good discrimination"), but not for national security ("bad discriminaton"). I didn't make the law, I'm just sayin what it is. I think it's @%$#! nuts.
However, a law that discriminates on the basis of *citizenship* would probably fly. The problem there, however, is not the judicial branch, but that the exceutive branch has amply demonstrated its commitment to never enforce any such laws.
I'd say until there is actual, bloody, ongoing war on US soil -- enough to persuade judges to see things a little differently -- we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
Korematsu has not been overturned; it still stands until the US Supreme Court itself overturns it.
I see nothing in the 14th Amendment which should prevent the government from burdening any citizens (whether individuals or networks of individuals) who pose a threat to the USA, nor anything that would proscribe a fine-tuning of that burdening that would include racial factors, when those racial factors afford a rational basis for ferreting out those citizens who disproportionately reflect racial factors but who would try through subterfuge and camouflage to evade detection. Any attempt to use the 14th Amendment to hobble such a fine-tuning and its rational basis would have to utilize interpretations of the 14th Amendment -- which in ensuing history have become laden with PC ideology --, not the 14th Amendment itself.