Tiny Minority of Extremists Update from the TimesOnline, with thanks to Barnahy:
A SIGNIFICANT minority of British Muslims believe they are at war with the rest of society, the largest poll of Muslims in this country suggests.The Populus survey for The Times and ITV News has found that more than one in ten thinks that the men who carried out the London bombings of 7/7 should be regarded as “martyrs”. Sixteen per cent of British Muslims, equivalent to more than 150,000 adults, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right.
But the poll also revealed a stark gulf between this group and the majority of British Muslims, who want the Government to take tougher measures against extremists within their community.
More than half (56 per cent) believe that the Government has failed to combat extremism, a higher proportion than the 49 per cent of the general population who agree.
No suggestion that maybe it is the Muslim community that needs to do more to combat "extremism."
Nearly half (49 per cent) of Britain’s 1.6 million Muslims also think it acceptable for the authorities to monitor what is being preached in mosques more closely.
Good. So do I.
13% of British Muslims think that the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings of July 7, 2005, should be regarded as “martyrs”7% agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the UK can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 per cent for a military target
16% of British Muslims say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right
2% would be proud if a family member decided to join al-Qaeda. Sixteen per cent would be “indifferent”
56% of British Muslims believe that the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism, more than the 49 per cent of the whole population who agree
50% think the intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities and the way they obtain funding
65% of British Muslims say that their community needs to do more to integrate properly with British society
35% say that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police
What does 'integration properly' mean? Couldn't one believe that Muslims should integrate properly and interpret proper integration to mean modifying local laws and customs to conform to authoritative religious law? In any case at least 35% of Muslims in Britain do not worry about it. And how can one expect high reliability in the poll when the target group is highly suspicious of the potential reactions of the larger audience? Not to mention that there exist religious injunctions like, 'war is deceit' in scriptural sources accepted by the target group and that the poll asks questions related to war. Polls should be crafted with a bit more finesse and non-Muslim audiences should be taught how to see the implications of certain responses.
Here are a few suggestions:
1. Do you think Muslims should work to establish Sharia law in Britain?
2. Do you think non-Muslims should be granted moral and political rights equal to those of Muslims in Muslim countries?
3. Do you think the laws of a just state should allow free and open criticism of Islam?
4. Do you think the laws of a just state should allow free and open criticism of the founder of the Islamic religion?
5. Do you think that Islam obliges Muslims to allow free and open criticism of Islam?
6. Do you think Islam obliges Muslims to allow free and open criticism of the founder of the Islamic religion?
7. Do you think that in an Islamic state it should be required by law that Muslims treat all non-Muslims as political equals regardless of their religous and political views?
This is the most successful aspect of Muslim jihad against us: The so-called moderates among them will continue to demand "more action" from the infidels to supposedly fight the extremists. If this is done, then this exact same constituency will excoriate those actions and hold them up as examples of Muslim oppression and abuse of Muslims by Infidels, thereby creating another pretext in the endless stream of pretexts to protect and promote Islam in our domain.
These demands always include more Da'wa for the Muslims in "Infidel" lands -- more demands by Muslims for public monies to be spent enlightening the "infidels" on Islam so they stop fearing and begin "understanding" Islam more.
Thus -- every transgression by their less "moderate" brethren is interpreted and eploited by the larger Muslim audience as an opportunity to further the goals of Islam, to demand more concessions for Islam, more money for Islam, more exposure for Islam, more rights and privileges for the Islamic Ummah, and to further erode the laws and society of the "infidels" by placing undeserved burdens upon us to carry their proselytization for Islam forward.
If it isn't clear yet to those "infidels" what kind of Islamic flim-flam racket is going on, perhaps we deserve to be completely subverted by these g_d damned barbarians.
Every Muslim that comes to the "Infidels" to complain, lecture, demand, appeal, criticise rather than taking his arguments to his supposedly 'misguided' Muslim brother is simply conducting another type of Jihad against us.
If their words had any sincerity behind them, we'd see at least a few attempting to grapple with their violent brethren rather than constantly appealing and criticizing us for the transgressions of the more violent among them. But make no mistake -- ALL Muslims are engaged in jihad to spread Islam across the globe however they may. Some of them do it by murder, some of them do it by abetting the murderers, but most of them do it by using every opportunity which presents itself by the more violent among them to further promote Islam. They are conducting Jihad every time they deflect attention away from Islam for being the cause of all the atmospherics, every time they blame us rather than Islam, and every time they magicalll displace what should be their burderns onto us to reform Islam, or to show more tolerance towards Islam, or to pay Muslims more money to prove we wish them no harm, or to expose ourselves to Islam. They are cynically and malignantly extorting us to join with them to become tools of Islamic promotion.
Ministers have spoken about instituting our own madrassas to nurture "British Islam". Apparently many moderate Moslems recognise that Pakistani and Saudi-trained Imams are part of the problem, and would like to see Imams promoted from within their local communities. If this is seriously to be considered there needs to be a public enquiry examining not 7/7 or social exclusion but focusing on Islam itself, on what differences can realistically be expected to be taught on such fundamental aspects of the ideology as racial, ethnic and sexual equality, national sovereignity, on questions of personal identity, allegiances and loyalties.
Because even today Blair remains convinced the terrorist's ideology isn't the 'real' Islam. The government continues to believe the best cure for Islamist unrest is to encourage more home-grown Moslems to study the example of their "prophet" - to research it and discuss it in plain English. Presumably this overwhelming (65%?) majority of moderate moslems will thus realise the truth about the benevolence and peaceful example of their "religion", until tolerance and understanding reign throughout the land, spreading across the continent to empower a new generation of modern thinking, integrated, European Moslems loyal only to their beloved infidel homelands in dar al-harb.
Because real Islam is a peaceful religion, which is only being subverted by Arabic-speaking Wahabists. Real Islam forbids terrorism. The biggest victims of 7/7 are moslems, who endure terrible suffering in the Islamophobic backlash. Tony Blair knows this, because he has special counsel with mainstream moderates. People like Tariq Ramadan, Ibrahim Mogda, Iqbal Sacranie, Lord Ahmed, Shahid Malik, etc.
Until we have a thorough public enquiry into the future viabilty and compatibility of Moslem communities within secular pluralist democracies, based on their actual core beliefs and ideologies, little progress will be made towards managing, let alone eliminating the enemy in our midst, and governments wil continue their cluelessly wrong-footed innitiatives, based on the coordinated disinformation of the enemy itself.
The Times invited readers' comments on the poll findings: for what it is worth, the majority of the 34 messages sent in so far show a complete loss of patience with the Muslim community by the rest of the population. There are a few comments from British Muslims, one or two of which come close to drawing an equivelence betwen British foreign policy and terrorism: the phrase 'Islam is a religion of peace' occurs more than once in their contributions.
As well as reading them you can send in a comment of your own, at:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,564-2255074,00.html
Reading that thread at the Times UK is enough to make me ill. Even amidst the thankfully staunch Brits that choose not to demonize the United States or Israel, too many posters are spewing the same old rhetoric -- like the anti-semite from Canada that calls for the denouncement of Olmert of Israel, and of course, the actions of United States.
"Why has Blair not opposed the extremism on which his concern is based? That is the extremism of Bush? And even more horrible, Israel's Ehud Olmert? Terrorism doesn't happen because people wake up one morning and want to destroy something. It is a technique used by the desperate and hopeless. I do not understand how young Muslim men cannot sometimes feel desperate and hopeless in view of the ghastly horrors of Gaza, the pointless destruction in Iraq, the mess in Afghanistan, and the general ugly tone that has gripped many Western societies."
Or the Muslim poster that lies about the life of Muhammad and makes him sound like a saintly choirboy.
"The supporters of these so called "martyrs" will do well to study the holy character of their founder, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who led an exemplary life, almost all of it in a part of the world that was steeped in barbarism where seeking vengeance by any means was deemed acceptable. But the Prophet never ever sanctioned the taking of life of innocent bystanders; in fact he emphasised following the route of dialogue and diplomacy."
What rubbish!
Where is the outrage when the Palestinians murder Jews? Where is the calling for the kidnapped Israeli soldier to be returned?
The world has not even witnessed the justifiable anger of the West!! But trust me, continue down this road of sedition and ignorance and cowardice and that day is going to arrive and sooner than the Muslim and Liberal and 3rd Worlds would like!
How in the Hell do these people think they can push and push and push us and not get a kick in the teeth? It incenses me!
The behavior of British Muslims is no suprise:
The historical records bears out the pattern occurring in Europe today -- a smalll minority moves in, begins to agitate, put pressure on the larger population that resists. A few extremists take exception and react violently; some die and are "made martyrs". The less inclined to violence will approve of the cause, but not the method -- the cause is the Islamification of the entire population, if not by "voluntary" cooperation, then by whatever works to get the job done - violence and coercion of different forms...
Al-Taqiyya, the Islamic 'catch 22', has some of the brightest infidels confused, paralized or both. Like jsla warns...... But make no mistake -- ALL Muslims are engaged in jihad to spread Islam across the globe however they may.... and what better tool than an Islamic 'catch 22', with the 'moderate muslim' face covering the 'jihadi muslim' objective? Few realize that no matter the face, the same objective remains the same. Much like the wolf in the 'Little Red Riding Hood' story, who first eats the grandma, then dresses up like grandma, to eat the innocent Little Red Riding Hood, herself... And why not, 'Al-Taqiyya', a prescribed Islamic practice, is designed 'to conceal'... and turn into a 'moderate muslim', all the 'Jihadi muslim' has to do is 'to conceal' the 'Jihadi' and wallah.. thanks to the foolish infidel, turns into a 'moderate muslim'! See how easy it is for the wolf (muslim) to fool Little Red Riding Hood (he foolish infidel)?
Thank you jsla for a timely warning.
ALL Muslims are engaged in jihad to spread Islam across the globe however they may
But that's not to say they're all 'guilty'.
All moslems are part of Islam, but not all Moslems are knowingly complicit in the Jihad.
If more Moslems knew what we know about Islam, we might really start to see cracks emerging... And I think this is something still worth persuing, confronting Moslems with the truth as respectfully as possible, letting them know what we know, that anyone can see what Islam is really all about, discuss their eschatology, and to tell them that, basically, it's nuts and it ain't gonna happen...
I think the results of polls are extremely difficult to interpret if the actual questions asked aren't published along with the results. As an example, look at 2 ways of communicating the results of this poll in the article, apparently referring to the same question asked - whatever it was:
"More than half (56 per cent) believe that the Government has failed to combat extremism, a higher proportion than the 49 per cent of the general population who agree" -
"56% of British Muslims believe that the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism, more than the 49 per cent of the whole population who agree"
Was the question - "Do you believe that the government has failed to combat extremism?"
Or was the question, "Is the government doing enough to combat extremism"?
Those are 2 different questions. If it was the latter Q that was asked, then it would imply that the 56% who said no, would wish the government to actually do more to combat extremism. Whereas, if it were the former Q that was asked, then among those answering "No" might be those triumphalist Muslims who don't WANT the government to succeed in combating extremism and are merely stating a fact that the government is losing.
That's why I hate polls that show results but not the questions asked. That's really really bad journalism to do that. Please - just present the who, what, how, and where (or whatever that basic journalistic ethic is supposed to be) - just the facts m'aam. That is my understanding of the basic journalistic professional obligation in any case.
"..Nearly half (49 per cent) of Britain’s 1.6 million Muslims also think it acceptable for the authorities to monitor what is being preached in mosques more closely..."
So they demand minders, since they need policing to protect them from themselves and to protect us from them?
"..56% of British Muslims believe that the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism, "
But the moment the government takes action the whole ummah goes ape-shit and screams 'oppression & injustice...'
"..65% of British Muslims say that their community needs to do more to integrate properly with British society.."
meaningless drivel. Muslims are not allowed to take infidels for friends unless there is a chance to convert them to Islam. Infidels who are aware of what the blood-cult has in store for them stay away. Integration is not possible...
"....35% say that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police..."
This, of course, is not the beginning of the end, it is already advanced subversion.
Allowing Mohammedans in the police force will finally allow them to actively pervert justice to make Britain Islamic per express.
"..Nearly half (49 per cent) of Britain’s 1.6 million Muslims also think it acceptable for the authorities to monitor what is being preached in mosques more closely...""
This is one of the most interesting and telling results from the poll, because there's not too many ways to ask this question, (I can’t think of any other variations to the Q "Is it acceptable for the authorities to monitor what is preached in mosques more closely?") The results are somewhat clear and seem to suggest that roughly 50% of Muslims in the UK are "true" moderates who put their loyalty to the British state above their loyalty to the ummah. This is the 50% who have nothing to fear from the government monitoring the mosques. I am sure there are a variety of reasons for the remaining 50% to object, but I still take cold comfort there, because it would seem that roughly 50% of the Muslims polled put their loyalty to their ummah instead of the British state.
But even more problematic, is that the moderates (say the 50% represented in this poll) tend to turn in increasing numbers towards extremism when they feel for any reason that Islam is under fire. So the inevitable trajectory here, as others have pointed out, is that AS the government cracks down, doing what it needs to do to combat this "extremism" - it INEVITABLY multiplies the number of extremists it has to deal with.
This was already clear in I believe in early 2004 when a prominent Muslim cleric in Britain announced that the non-agression treaty with Britain was over, because of Britains post 9/11 anti-terrorism measures.
In short, it's a catch 22 with Muslims. A No Exit. No way out once you've let them into your societies. The mandate for permanent war against the unbelievers cannot be placated by anything the unbeliever might try as a gesture of goodwill, peace, and understanding.
Appeasement and goodwill is viewed as weakness and thus mobilizes the bloodlust of the jihadis. But also fighting back against the jihadis is seen as an attack on Islam which likewise mobilizes the Islamic bloodlust, producing even MORE jihadis. Hence, it's a lose-lose proposition for the infidels, trying to deal with Muslims.
The only long-term solution to this dilemma I can see is to keep the Muslims quarantined in dar-al-Islam from the rest of the human race. Like one would quarantine a virus or any other infectious and deadly disease.
Yes, it is true that innocent individuals get caught up in a quarantine. They may have merely been exposed to the virus but are not actively showing any symptoms. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter - they get quarantined as well.
How do epidemiologists certify that someone is free of illness and able to come out of quarantine? (surmising a roughly 50% infected rate?). What would constitute a clean bill of health?
The only thing I can think of in answer to that question is a complete repudiation of Islam. Otherwise, if one isn't "active", one is nevertheless a "carrier". And quarantine is the only solution.
But, if the concept of quarantine sounds harsh, one need only be reminded of the fact that Muslims love Islam! They love dar-al-Islam! Dar al Islam is apparently the perfect world for Muslims!
It's like Brer rabbit repeatedly asking to do anything at all but please don't throw me into the briar patch! Yet, the briar patch was what Brer rabbit knew. The Briar patch was what Brer Rabbit knew and loved. And he knew he would be perfectly happy there!
Today, on the 4th of July, I am wondering whether the specific way our forefathers framed things wasn’t in some part due to a luxury that their Christian forebears had prevailed and driven back the jihad from Europe. I am wondering whether when they developed our political system, it wasn’t the case that they had no concept that it would have to take into account the threat of Islam. The way they chose to phrase things was obviously assuming that they were dealing with a common cultural, western Christian heritage and that the threat of Islam was of the past and of no concern.
Which raises the unprecedented Q for Americans - (so very young, as these things go) - as to whether history doesn't move on? In short, it's not over, is it? We're apparently still smack in the middle of history!. And I wonder whether it isn't the case, that in order to deal with the very real threat that is Islam, we might not actually find ourselves in the long run needing to literally redefine America?
Here's a 12 minute video with the classic rantings of a Muslim in the UK , he fires up the Muslim crowd with lies about Bush and Blair , then praises the Islamic States and Shariah-Law
that unit Muslims and bring Peace in those Countries.
The irony is that he couldn't hold this hate-speech rally in an Islamic/Sharia nation, the really funny part is the last 2 minutes where he tells Muslims to engage non-Muslims to show them
how peaceful Islam and Muslims are.
http://www.hizb.org.uk/multimedias/uk/march10122005/talk8.ram
"13 percent of British muslims think the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings on July 7, 2005, should be regarded as 'martyrs'."
Now why would they want to regard covert British agents as martyrs? Must just be an overlapping percentage which gets confused over which lie to use.
One of the letters in that Times article grabbed my attention:
In my yute, I recall reading about Enoch Powell, and the public outrage towards his statements about how immigrants would be unable to assimilate into Britain. I also recall the outrage that once resulted when Norman Tebbit, ex Tory party chairman, said that Asians (i.e. Indians and Pakistanis) fail the cricket test, when they cheer for their home countries over England.That was then. The last time there was an India vs. England contest in England, I recall reading about how second and subsequent generation ex-Indians today pass the cricket test i.e. support England over the country of their forebears. However, more recently, reading a review about Pakistani attitudes towards the England vs. Pakistan series that happened in Pakistan, it looks like most of them overwhelmingly support Pakistan over England, and beyond that, wished that Andrew Flintoff (the leading England all-rounder and temporary captain of the team) was Pakistani. Not even just British Muslim, but Pakistani.
Reading the above letter reminds me of the controversy that Powell and Tebbit sparked. Vilified as they were, looks like they were partly right. While people like Blacks, Indians and Jews seem to have integrated to a large extent, whatever they said was spot on about Muslims.
Today's Independent has an interesting story titled " Blair lays down law to Muslims on extremists in their midst", but it reads more like "Muslims lay down the law to the UK government".
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1160986.ece
What Muslims proposed... and what the Government did
* Recommendation: Hold a public inquiry into the "what, how and why of 7/7 and 21/7, "including an inquiry into the root causes".
Response: Ministers have repeatedly ruled out a public inquiry into the attacks. An internal Home Office narrative of events leading up to the attacks was published earlier this year.
* Recommendation: Establish a rebuttal unit at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to "encourage a more balanced representation of Islam and Muslims in the British media, popular culture and creative industries".
Response: No unit has so far been established.
* Recommendation: Establish a steering group at the Department for Education and Skills chaired by a minister and including participation from the Muslim community and other experts to "draw up a strategy on combating Islamophobia in education".
Response: The Education Department said it had work in hand on combating Islamophobia and said concerns about the national curriculum would be addressed in a review to be published in December.
* Recommendation: Establish a British Muslim "citizenship toolkit" to help student societies, mosques, imams and parents combat "violent fanatic tendencies".
Response: The Labour MP Sadiq Khan said yesterday there had been no progress.
* Recommendation: Set up an "Islam Online" website as a one-stop shop for young British Muslims.
Response: The Muslim Council of Britain's Inayat Bunglawala, convenor of a working group to combat extremism and radicalisation, said he was still waiting for a response to a formal proposal two months after it was submitted to the Home Office.
"Because real Islam is a peaceful religion, which is only being subverted by Arabic-speaking Wahabists. Real Islam forbids terrorism."
it's bullshit and you know it.
I tried to post this on the Times site hours ago and it seems to have not passed the moderators. Maybe i'm a racist ad I don't know it. But compared to other posts on the site I think I sound as reasonable as I am about the matter.
Shafkath was commenting that because of alchohol and mini skirts etc a Muslim must choose between being British or Muslim. This was my reply:
"Shafkath I think your statement above is simply wrong. The idea that because some elements of British society do not sit well with Islam means Muslims must choose to be either British or Muslim is akin to saying, I really enjoy Shakespeare but I won’t be watching any of his plays because I don’t think much of Hamlet.
Most people just leave out the things they don’t enjoy in life and embrace the rest. So I would say it is entirely possible to be both British and Muslim.
Many people feel no need to drink alcohol or wear mini skirts. But they consider themselves British and proud to be so.
I would suggest that those who consider certain traits in society as a reason to condemn it as a whole are the intolerant ones, especially if they condemn our society while enjoying its many benefits. Of course anybody who doesn’t like it here is welcome to live elsewhere.
I do agree that British Muslims and not the government are responsible for showing the British public that Islam is truly a religion of peace. But harmful people like Anjem Choudary seem to be the most politically active in the Muslim community. As they say, the ball is in your court".
Of course I understand that in the West where freedom of speech is a cornerstone of society there can be no chance that a newspaper would practice censorship for political reasons. I mean if we arn't fighting the Islamist nutters to protect freedom of speech then why on earth are we bothering at all.
Maybe the moderator is alittle busy looking at Robbs Celebs and just missed my post.
We must deport people like this from the country irrespective of whether they are born here. We have allowed invaders in by exploiting immigration rules that allow married people to enter the country. A new law that states that if you support ANY attack on this country will reult in the removal of your citizenship in this country, including that of your family, you will then be deported to the nearest islamic country. Sadly our politicians are too corrupt to take such a brave stand.