Will Pakistan ease harsh Sharia rape laws?

Reform sharia law? I can see the muslim heads spinning already.

freewoman's right, sharia and reform just don't jive. The only way to rid yourself of rotten fruit is not to pick from a rotten tree.

Now, suppose a woman was raped AND she had 4 male witnesses that said she was raped. Since four men have now seen her having sex, is her family now required to kill her because of the dishonor she has brought upon them since men have seen her having sex?

I wonder if either of the following have ever happened:

1. Four male witnesses testified that a woman was raped and the rapist was convicted.

2. A wife was beaten with a toothpick/twig and saw the error of her ways.

Why should a male dominated society with all of the advantages enjoyed by sexully insecure or repressed males (and hence quite literally gynophobic) who have a need to dominate a sex that in many ways is their superior(ethically and biologically)actually consider giving up some of the legal safeguards to protect their poor little, sadly lacking, egos?

Interested I too would like to see the number of GENUINE convictions for rape under sharia law also. But if you just consider the corruption, the deceit and the inherent lies which constiture islamic thought, i will bet that most of them are good oldfashioned frame-ups to remove undesirables.

So even if we found a number why should it be even near the truth?

I'd be surprised if there are any convictions at all based on four male witnesses.

The law was made at a time when there was no concept of "rape", certainly not among savages like Mohammed. A woman's consent was not considered important. In societies that still have this primitive mindset - Muslim societies in particular - four men who witnessed a rape would either intervene if they had any decency and saw it as rape, or they wouldn't see it as rape and they'd report it as adultery. So I bet a rape conviction on the evidence of four male witnesses has never happened.

The toothpick thing has always intrigued me. It is brought up so often by apologists for Islam, usually after they have talked about domestic violence statistics in the West being higher. I bet this has never happened either. Not once.

The islamic worker's paradise of Pakistan. Naseem must be so proud......

Re: "....based on the notorious incident in which Muhammad's wife Aisha was accused of adultery."

How old was Aisha at the time - eleven maybe?

Any time there is a conflict between reason and Islam it is a good thing. Heaven help this young man Rahman - he is only 28 and CEO of a popular broadcasting company. He probably knows Islam needs restraint, and is using his power to make a change.

What Pakistan needs is to let the Jews control their media, and their economy for that matter! They'd be much better off.

Interested...shortlived post here :)

Going by the inrinsic male insecurity that is fundamental to the arab ethos, I would hazard a guess that the toothpick had more to do with arab virilty inferiority complexes and a symbolic weapon of sexual wrath than a real tool for caning and taming cantankerous spouses.

This is somewhat, if indirectly verified by Muhammad's great and constant projected illusion of being a "great lover", having a need for totally inexperienced females(no comparison possible) and also having some intrinsic need to dominate women at all levels so as to prevent any of hem from seeing him for whatb he was: a very unendowed, poor performance example of a man.

This is not just facetiousness since if you look at his supposed capacity to "pleasure" (not my words) all of his wives in one night this must have equalled about ten minutes each allowing for nature's pitstops. But then that is probably great by arab standards I suppose.

Shame on you Zathras. You're going to offend Naseem's delicate sensibilities while she struggles against appearing the fool for defending her homeland's codes.

Come to think of it (or vice versa), was it a toothbrush rather than a toothpick? These days his wives could get electric ones.

I believe the "toothpick" defense, when examined more closely, would turn out to be self-defeating, insofar as it was really a tooth-cleaning implement and it was, in the 7th century A.D. derived from the branch of a certain plant: i.e., what the "toothpick" in Arabic really denoted was what Americans in the South know of as a "switch" -- a strap taken from a tree branch used for whipping (usually for corporal punishment of children or slaves). If so, this "toothpick" misinterpretation could be similar to the "camel through the eye of a needle" proverb in the New Testament: scholars on closer examination have concluded that the "eye of a needle" was not meant to be a literal sewing needle, but in fact was a kind of narrow turnstile at a caravansarai which is very difficult -- but not impossible -- for a camel to be led through.

Interested...excellent!!! that is assuming FGM removes only notes a,b,c,d,e,f.(no real first or second hand, or otherwise, experience here)

Electric toothbrushes are far better than electric potato mashers(source = What a way to go!! 640 funny ways of dying..author ...cannot remember)

Concerned citizen...seeing as poor Naseem has just lost her dear husband I should have thought that the above advice would have been indeed useful in the torrid restless nights of loneliness that lie far ahead. Shame on you to cast such infamous aspersions upon my taste. Anyone could assume that you think paronomasia rules!!

The toothpick thing has always intrigued me. It is brought up so often by apologists for Islam, usually after they have talked about domestic violence statistics in the West being higher. I bet this has never happened either. Not once.

Yeah, quite. Here's Ali Sina:

In explaining the verse 4:34 Mr. Mallah says the beating must be light, should not leave any marks and must be with "toothbrush". This is not clear from the verse and certainly millions of battered Muslim women have not benefited by this addendum. Again it boils down to the question, why is the Qur’an not clear on these crucial matters? Also the way Mr. Mallah explains this verse sounds more like foreplay. Beating with a toothbrush? Is that a joke? Why beat at all? Even if it is symbolic, and it is only intended to establish the dominance of man over woman, the question is why? Why should men dominate women even symbolically? However, millions of battered Muslim women can testify that there is nothing symbolic in this beating. They are often beaten so much that their bones are crushed. I personally recall women coming to our house showing their bruises to my mother and crying.

Disgusting. And even more disgusting to conceal it behind all this hypocritical verbiage.

Interested

They didn't have electric toothbrushes during their prophet's time, so that would be haram today. Of course, an electric machete would be different.

I read about the above article in a puff piece in INDIA TODAY magazine, which is a run of the mill dhimmi magazine from India. What was revealing was the photos of the debaters - all of them were Mullahs, dressed in their Jihadi costumes. Apparently, the only framework in which Islamic law can be challenged is an Islamic framework, much like Thomas Haidon. It's like trying to dismantle Apartheid under Apartheid laws, or Communism under CPSU rules. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

Yojimbo... Islam is a bully's religion where ritual and law only serve to protect the inadequcy of the male arab.

Violence is also an inherent part of it and you can see this in the current epidemic of wifebashing and rapes in western states so that it would appear that male inadequacy and violence towards women go hand in hand.

Someone tried to justify this (tongue in cheek I would assume) by saying that if you look at it this way, then, as violence is one certain way to elicit moans,perhpas for arab males it is the only way.

Didn't at one time Pak had a pro communist, almost secular leader? Even Communism is preferable to this sharia'h nightmare

Bohemond,
Going from previous posts of Naseem, I think she has avery low opion of these females who get raped. her and most muslijm's argument is that any female who gets raped is a slut and whore who fully deserves it. if she was wearing ahijab or burka she would not be raped or best yet if she stayed home 24 hours a day , she would never risk being raped. so for Naseem( and most muslim men and women) the only decent females are pious muslim females who wear the cloak and or never leave home out alone.

Siwak -- "A piece of a root of a tree called Al-Arak. It is used as a toothbrush."

http://www.epakistan.com/ep/epahad.nsf/619e2caaa0dcd29e45256794003395fd/4ed8d65a17d2f1b1452568f500452087!OpenDocument

How big and how long of a "piece" is this? Was it perhaps bigger and longer in the 7th century practice? Is it necessarily denoting exactly the same dimensions when taken from the tree for dental hygiene, and for other purposes, including corporal punishment? Etc.

More on the "toothpick":

Ibn Sa`d in al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in Hilyat al-Awliya' and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak [such a jungle of "diversity" Islam is!] narrated from Umm Salama: "The Prophet was in my house and there was a siwak in his hand. He called for Wasifa [the servant-girl] to come to him or to her [i.e. to serve Umm Salama] but she tarried until anger was visible on his face. So Umm Salama went out to her and found her playing with an animal. She said to her: "You are playing while the Messenger of Allah is calling you?" She replied: "No, by the one who sent you with truth! I did not hear you." Whereupon the Prophet said: "Were it not for fear of exaction (qawad) on the Day of Resurrection, I should surely make you sore (la'awja`tuki) with this toothpick [siwak ]."

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e32.html

Obviously, unless Mohammed was a veritable Musketeer with a toothpick, he could not make a girl "sore" with it, nor would he avail himself of it when anything better was at hand by which to fulfill his immediate goal at the time of his anger, i.e., to "make her sore".

P.S.: so much for the innocence of Islamic dental hygiene, eh?

This toothpick has opened a can of worms.

Interested-

Are you comparing the "prophet" Mohammad to a can of worms?

Bloodworms, I hope.

Toothpicks can be dangerous weapons. Ever kiss a guy not realizing he had a toothpick sticking out of his mouth? OUCH!

Their arguements over what to beat their women with has become ridiculous. Some say with a napkin...(oh please). I doubt any muslim male uses restraint long enough to go pull a switch and instead, just uses his fists. Or whatever is handy.

I used to consider Islam to be barbaric, but this daring civil rights coup has given rise to thoughts of reconsideration.

"having a need for totally inexperienced females" Zathras
It's often been remarked that Mohammed seems to have been almost exclusively interested in widows. The Oedipal implications are obvious - particularly when he (creepily) showed an interest in widows of his own making. Genghiz Khan once remarked that there is nothing sweeter than riding the horse and sleeping with the wife of a dead enemy - I think he had similar problems.Perhaps his pre-occupation with Ayesha was by way of some sort of a contrast.

These are a couple of pictures of siwaks: being of n age that I'm old enough to have got six of the best in the headmaster's study, I'd say it would be a question of how long it was rather than how thick: the thinnest canes were the woest.

http://nurmuhammad.com/images/LowREsMeditationpic/siwakenergymuraqabah.jpg

http://www.bytheplanet.com/Products/Peelu/images/SH3.jpg

Everyone check out this guy:

http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=2207&theType=NR

talk about the ultimate anti-Dhimmitude. I think he wins next years award!

Desidude, I know, I was being sarcastic. If Naseem was ever raped (God forbid) she would probably accept it as the will of allah. But having seen the way muslim men treat women, rape is probably considered foreplay.

Pakistan and all the other Islamic "republics" will never change their laws unless the Quran is changed, and that obviously will never happen. Here is a fatwa from Ask-Imam.com. -

"Does a rape victim have to produce at least 4 witnesses, or not? What if there is clear DNA and other evidence?

Answer 15641
A more clear proof than DNA is pregnancy. In spite of this, the pregnancy is not the core ground for conviction. At most, it will be an indication of the crime committed. This will then lead to the criminal and force him to confess.

According to the Shari’ah, four eye witnesses or confession are core grounds for conviction. Accordingly, a DNA will have no reason to deny once the DNA is proven against him. However, DNA itself is not a core Shar’ee ground for conviction.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai"

Until Islamic countries adopt forensic science as evidence in criminal cases nothing will change. How many rapists confess?

It is one thing to be a woman and born in a country that has Sharia rape laws, but it is another thing for a woman to voluntarily put herself in a situation in which she either could end up moving there or decides to move there period. I truly cannot, cannot understand the supposed rationale behind putting oneself at this kind of risk, if one were a woman.

"The Hudood Ordinance makes no distinction between rape and adultery," Mr. Rahman explained to his audience. "It is just like saying there is no difference between an apple and an orange." from the article.

That's an important distinction. The Koran and hadith do not recognize rape per se. The penalty for "rape" is actually a jerry-rigged penalty for adultery. If the man is convicted of rape (i.e., forcing the woman [who is other than his wife or his servant/slave girl/captive]** to have sex with him against her will), he receives the penalty equivalent to that for adultery, and the woman is "forgiven"* and thus is absolved of the penalty because she was forced (i.e., she did not intend to sin).

*There is a hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud which deals with this.

**A Muslim man's wives and female slaves/captives may be "enjoyed by force" --from the Hedaya.

Of course, these laws are based on the notorious incident in which Muhammad's wife Aisha was accused of adultery. The brouhaha was settled when Muhammad received a revelation from Allah requiring four witnesses: " Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!" (Qur'an 24:13).

Note here that God suddenly becomes beneficent to accused slatterns when it’s Mohammed’s kiddie sex partner who’s at stake. Funny how God always bailed Mohammed out just in the nick of time, even to the point of reversing earlier God commandments with a cool new innovation in Divinity old Mo’ called naskh where the Laws of the Universe could change as Mo’s situation on the ground changed... always in Mo’s favor, as it turned out.

610 * 623 * 732* 1066* 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001

But, I guess Hooper could fairly point out here that Koran 24.13 marked the birth of women’s rights. Wonder if Tim will give him the interview next Sunday.

It is ironic that this stupid law was intended to protect a woman against stoning for adultery! Maybe a case where moderates can claim the law is misinterpreted and misused. The basic problem seems to be that islam doesn't acknowledge rape at all, only 'fornication' and 'adultery'. It simply didn't seem to occur to them back then that forced sex per se was a bad thing.

"if she stayed home 24 hours a day , she would never risk being raped." Except by husband, relatives and anyone who broke into the house.

Lili...didn't someone here present stats that showed that most rapes in Muslim countries were performed by friends and relatives? So even staying home is fraught wit risk.

Maybe we should start to sell chastity belts to islamic countries so that those poor arab husbands wont feel so threatened.

Assalamau-Laikum all,

A pity that this thread has degenerated down to an infedel sense of humor...to see/hear of me being raped....I do find infedel sense of humor tedious sometimes & wierd at other times.

To think that it is funny if someone is raped (and especially when I have lost my shor) ..... you truly truly disgust me, but then I suppose you were trying to get my attentions eh..

The huddod laws need looking at but being Ahamdi and having to face even stiffer discrimination is not funni. That is why I say...since the world is to be dominated by Islam...when you convert...be an Ahmadi...the more of there are , the easier it will be on all.

Print badges, leave flyers with the appropriate slogan "convert...become Ahmadi" or "Ahamdis are 4life" or "Ahmadis make the best wuslims"

you get the idea.

Until Islamic countries adopt forensic science as evidence in criminal cases nothing will change. How many rapists confess?

Dear Pelayo

DNA evidence is probably haraam and inadmissible to takfeeri 'thinking', since it, like mayonnaise, falafel, tennis, and ice making,* is not mentioned in the Quran.

The truly frightening thing about these Islamo-psychos, is that as they struggle to clarify the relationship of their Scripture to Modernity, they become increasingly unhinged.

Oddly enough, car bombs, suicide vests, and slaughtering hundreds of innocent Muslims in order to attack Crusaders seem to be comfortably halal.

Daryl

*Pack up or die, street vendors told
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/04/wirq04.xml

*Of Mayonnaise and Minorities
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5647

Naseem you must be more tolerant here of the comments. Many of the posters here have very good reasons to HATE Islam and you have really been treated with kid's gloves compared to how I have been treated on islamic websites, where even simple and polite disagreement gives multiple death threats to me and my family.

I do admit that some of my comments were in bad taste but then that is just me and my sense of humour. However I doubt that anyone here seriously wishes you raped or hurt in any way no matter what islamic rubbish you spout.

I actually counted about 7 or so notes of condolence to you on the death of your husband fromosters here and I can tell you that if I put this myself on an islamic site it would be answered with comments about "roasting in hell" and "good riddance" etc.

You really should appeciate the fact that we treat you with christian altruism here as you are a fellow human being despite being a muslim.

You should also know that we know that you do not reciprocate this. Otherwise you would not insult us by your constant description of the "wonder" of islam when all here know it for what it really is and certainly much more so than do you.

Go and read the entire Koran 3 times( can you?) then come back here and discuss it with us. Do NOT quote any rubbish that your imam or reachers have told you but quote only from the Koran. I dare you.

Naseemn, some of your past comments to us have been very sarcastic and acerbic. Remember that many people here do not believe you have suffered a loss, or that you are a Pakistani or even female for that matter, so don't expect special treatment. You have not answered past questions in other threads about the rape of women in muslim society, the unequal and unfair (by Western standards) treatment of women in islamic society, or any other issues you are uncomfortable about, like the selling of young girls in Pakistan, or the 2 "honor killings" that occur in your country daily. Here, you get as good as you give. That is more than you get in most islamic societies. You cannot eat with men. In most of your culture you cannot talk in public with a man, or even go out without a chaperone or guardian. You are not allowed to learn in the same classroom with men. You cannot be examined by a male doctor in some geographic locations. You can never worship together with men in a mosque, but must remain segregated. You could not even go to your own husband's funeral. In some islamic countries you cannot even drive a car. At least here you can talk with men you don't know and are treated as an equal. Remember, you asked for it.

1069,

I take on board some of your comments...hell I am subject to some of those restrictions....but it is not as bad as you and others of your elk (whose freedoms have gone too far the other way)
make out.

On thing though...nobody asks to be raped....that really is below the belt

1069 says "Remember that many people here do not believe you have suffered a loss, or that you are a Pakistani or even female for that matter, so don't expect special treatment".

Why don't you belive me....what's wrong with you peoples....has being an infedel killed your ability to feel? I have suffered terribly over past 15-16 months. I would not even like to see a Kafur suffer like I have.

I am Ahmadi muslima called Naseem who lost her shor last week. I invited Infedel Pride to Lahore a couple of days ago to come & check "my credentials" and to visit Anwer's grave....his answer is pending....and I suspect will be for a looooooong time!.

Also 1069...I don't expect special treatment....when have I ever asked for any?

...and others of your elk ...

Oh deer!

nobody asks to be raped...

Sheikh Qaradawi, a "moderate" Islamic scholar and friend of Red Ken Livingstone believes that immodestly dressed women deserve to be raped.

"nobody asks to be raped....that really is below the belt"
Posted by: Naseem at July 11, 2006 09:37 AM

Just to pick a few examples out of a hijab of how Islam rapes the modern world:

***

An outspoken Sydney Muslim leader Keysar Trad has been fired as president of the Lebanese Muslim Association. Supporters of Mr Trad claim that 11 of the 15 new LMA directors are strong supporters of Sheik Faiz, who caused widespread anger last month when he said that rape victims who dressed in skimpy clothing brought the rape upon themselves by not wearing the hijab.

***

In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system...

...when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

***

An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

Apparently, he's not the only one thinking this way. “It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid, a young Muslim who was interviewed. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fucked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.”

Naseem, I still can't get over your comment of having "too many" freedoms. If you mean having the choice of a skirt or shorts, drive or walk or bike, work or not work, heels or tennis shoes...or do you mean having the choice of thinking for myself or letting some man do it for me?

Any way you look at it, I make my own choices. I don't need a man to tell me when I can leave the house, date, marry, dress, work, drive, buy, have a baby, breathe, clean, marry off my daughter or anything.

This is the good part of being an adult. I make choices based on my ability, financials, or my mood when I wake up. NOT because my "cult" and the males in my family tell me to.

I can look back on my life and say, "I did it my way". You can't say the same thing.

Naseem: Ilk dear. An elk is a large horned animal, like a deer but much bigger. No problem. Your English is still much better than my Farsi.
Your past comments here have led many people to believe there are either multiple people posing as "Naseem" or that you are just a common liar. Your religion places us in dar al-harb, the house of war, and as Mohammed said, "War is deceit". So please understand if not everyone here takes you at your word. I however, infidel that I am, choose to believe you and offer my sincere condolences on your loss, (until such time as you ever prove yourself false. Then shame on you. But I hope that doesn't happen.) Life and death, love and pain are common to all God's children.
As to your comment that "...it is not as bad as you and others of your elk (whose freedoms have gone too far the other way) make out."
Unfortunately since you have never fully experienced those freedoms yourself, you are really in no position to critisize them.
As for rape being being "below the belt", yes, you are correct, that is usually where rape is committed. (Sorry, more infidel humor.)
And where you are depends a lot on how "bad" it is, does it not? I assume from what I have read that generally the women in the outer regions of Pakistan are not treated as well as the women in the cities who are better educated and have a better quality of life. (Like you.)
Also Saudi Arabia is stricter on women than many other countries.
As far as "nobody asks to be raped....", that is exactly the defense used by a Pakistani man in Australia who raped many women there:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20535
From the article above:
"After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”
In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system.

One village council recently ordered that five young girls should be “abducted, raped or murdered” for refusing to be treated as chattel. The girls were aged between six and thirteen when they were married without their knowledge, to pay a family debt.

And when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

Yes, Naseem, a real islamic paradise you're living in there in Pakistan.
Now if you will pardon me, I will go back to the thread on the bombings in India today. I won't say they were done by the usual muslim terrorists, it could have been buddhist terrorists or zen terrorists. We shall see.

Television, sorry, didn't realize until just now that we were both quoting from the same source. Robert, sorry for eating up your bandwidth. Mea culpa.

Freewoman, very good. You wrote it just like I told you to. (Just kidding! More infidel humor!)

Hahaha Bohemond....(I need to change my phone number!!!)

I should have credited Elvis for that little saying.

Thank you Elvis!!

Freewoman, thank you, thank you very much. (Now I have to go into the witness relocation program again before there are more Elvis sightings.)

Here's the situation with this particular Islamic law.

l. It is based of course on Shari'a and Shari'a requires four male witnesses to a rape,, and if four male witnesses can't be produced then the victim is deemed to be guilty of Zina (adultery) and thus a candidate for the Islamic sport of stoning.

2. ANY male witness to a rape would be by definition be an accomplice, because if there were four males that were witness to the rape, then there failure to stop the rape makes them an accomplice.

This Hudood like all Hudoods and Shari'a is a Catch22.

I am Ahmadi muslima called Naseem who lost her shor last week. I invited Infedel Pride to Lahore a couple of days ago to come & check "my credentials" and to visit Anwer's grave....his answer is pending....and I suspect will be for a looooooong time!. Posted by: Naseem

The only way I'd ever end up in Lahore, or for that matter any Islamic hellhole, would be if the plane I was travelling in was hijacked, like the IA flight that went from Kathmandu to Dubai to Kandahar.

As for rape being being "below the belt", yes, you are correct, that is usually where rape is committed. (Sorry, more infidel humor.)

Yes, but that story then becomes assault or murder (by the rape victim.