Hizballah declares victory

When you have an army controlled by the enemy, you have an enemy army. It is a fact.

Hezbollah could be celebrating too soon, no agreement has been finalized and the shooting still goes on.

Islam, even in death, claims victory.

Re: "Hizbullah did not wait for the official UN Security Council announcement on a ceasefire and launched its own media campaign declaring it had 'won the war against Israel.'"

They must be utterly destroyed, or like Arnold the Terminator-they will be back. The same for that maniac in Iran. The leftists (really latter day "Marxists") look at this from the old, now very tired, perspective of economics and so-called colonialism. They don't understand that this is about religion because they don't understand religion as a motive for anything. They don't understand that Submission is a gang (umma) based religion (not a personal religion) and that the gangsters would love to do to Israel what they are doing to the Africans in Darfur. The Islamic fascists must be destroyed.

_________

BTW, I don't watch CNN, but last night I told folks to watch Robert on Glen Beck's "Headline news". I turn on the tv-it was the "Situation Room" with Wolf Blitzer. I had assumed the show was on TV-LOL...

I don't trust tv for the news. I saw the Nazi-CAIR propagandists on the Situation Room. They attacked Bush, and said not a word about the planned mass murder on the flights. I was deeply offended by the fraud of these CAIR-Nazi propagandists.

Write the prez, your reps, Senators-demand an investigation of this offensive propaganda arm of Islamic fascists.

Even on the ropes, Hezbollah still claims victory.

Even on the ropes, Hezbollah still claims victory.

Even on the ropes, Hezbollah still claims victory.

Amy Kellog of Fox News says the London bomb plot was to take place AUG 22...Now the State Department is warning U.S.Citizens of terror attacks in India...What next?

The pride before the fall.

If we just try to look beyond the propaganda, the cease-fire may be good for Israel too. Obviously, they were not prepared for this type of war. This will give them time to implement the right solutions to Hezbollah both politically and technically and come better prepared to the next bout.
IMHO, they were not prepared for the anti-tank missiles. They have to have a strategy for this. They need to implement phalanxes (or something of that kind) to defend the cities agains the katyusha rocket, and they need to develop a balistic GPS-guided bomb response to the katyusha lanchers in order to deal with them economically and efficiently.

This morning on a Canadian radio show someone claiming to be from the CAF (Can Arab fed.) declared disdain for Canada banning Hezbollah
which he asserted were 'Freedom fighters' and the majority of Arabs in canada support them.

The comment was shocking to listeners and he implied that Canadians were ignorant of the ME issues and Lebanese in Canada that don't support Hezbollah are puppets for the Zionists.
The CAF has been at Peace marches with Hezbollah flags and pictures of Nasrallah while chanting 'Death to israel' , their excuse was that as long as canada is a free country people can express their opinions in public.

If this doesn't open the eyes of the sheeple in Canada that blindly embrace pluralism as a benefit , then I don't know what it will take , maybe they need to see massive jihad and Subway bombings by these Peaceful misunderstood Arabs and Muslims.

I'm sure the audio streaming will be put in the
'best of' archives to hear it for yourself , listen carefully at how Arabs don't like our Democracy where Elected Members of Parliament
within a UN Member Nation create Bills that pass in the Senate but are offensive to their version of reality.

Check out these photos of the Hezbollah outpost (private home) captured by IDF . . .

http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?module=albums;task=view;id=1056

The two kidnapped Israeli soldiers have not been returned. And no land is to be forfeited permanently by the Lebanese perpetrators of the whole affair. In fact, the only discussion of a transfer of territory has been for Israel to give up those farms. So, I would say that Hizballah is correct--so far they have won.

Unless a strong external military force seals off the border between Syria and Lebanon and then thoroughly cleans out that huge terrorist rat's nest in the Bekaa Valley, nothing is going to change in Lebanon. There is no such force willing to go in there and fight that bloody fight.

Therefore, for Israel to "win," the jihadists and their Lebanese government facilitators must be publicly punished every time they launch an attack--by forfeiting something tangible. Israel should be keeping land as war reparations, not negotiating its return. Lebanese populations on that annexed land should be permanently expelled northward, as they will no longer be lving on Lebanese soil. Start moving "the wall" north.

As the injured party in the current affair, Israel, during any negotiations for a peace settlement, should be demanding war reparations; namely, permanent annexation of land. No reparations, no peace deal.

I think it's sad and ironic that we have these international entities like the EU and UN who want to give peace a chance, use diplomacy to solve conflicts and prevent civilian deaths, but they always do those things the wrong way and in the wrong situations. If it's necessary to step in and do something, they don't. If it's necessary to hold back, they don't.

Rwanda didn't merit any attention, but by God, Israel's war machine must be stopped before more terrorists are killed.

Do not fear folks , Israel knows that the staus quo is poison for them. Look for big covert strikes as the intel gets looped through. Hesscumlah has shown their cards and the fix is coming.

"The CAF has been at Peace marches with Hezbollah flags and pictures of Nasrallah while chanting 'Death to israel' , their excuse was that as long as canada is a free country people can express their opinions in public." ala-sux

Funnily enough, expressing your sympathy for Israel can be outright dangerous when these people are around. The day that Hizb ut-Tahrir held their hate demonstration in Copenhagen, a Dane carrying an Israeli paper flag was attacked by someone coming from the demo, and had to seek refuge in a shop. In another Danish city, the police banned a one-man demo by an apocalyptic Christian nutter, as they deemed it provocative if he waved the Israeli flag in the city centre. At another demonstration in this city, protesters waved the yellow flag of Hizbollah without any interference from the police. Is this situation tenable in the long run (he asked rhetorically)?

I wonder why Israel has not totally blacked out Hezballah’s propaganda channel. I would think they wouldn’t even need to find the antenna towers and bomb them, just broadcast a jamming signal on the same frequency…?

Anything less than a total victory for Israel is a victory for Hezbollah and Iran. The war should continue until the kidnapped soldiers are returned and Hezbollah leaves Lebanon in death or defeat.

anti-uffe, Christian counter-demonstrators were attacked in Finland, by pro-Hezbollah demonstrators chanting "death to Israel" in Arabic. As far as I know, the cops told the Christians to move, instead of just teargassing and arresting the demonstrators, which would have been far more appropriate.

Some people have more freedom of speech than other people.

call me a pessimist, but I suspect the two "captured soldiers" are actually "executed soldiers" if they are ever found.

"That will only embolden mujahedin everywhere, but especially in Iran, Syria, the West Bank, and Gaza"

Unfortunately, it will only embolden our 'frenchie' idiots too....I cannot STAND Chirac who has been buddy buddy in the past with the scum of the earth.

I am COMPLETELY disgusted that our government allowed the french to push us into a softer agreement which is horribly against Israel. We should have stood firm behind Israel.

A scripture came straight to mind when I read this...

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Th 5:3

We are guilty of pushing Israel into a peace agreement with terrorists...because we know that Hezbollah will not be moved from the border. It will either stay OR be integrated into the Lebanese army. Why on EARTH didn't we stick to our guns and force the International community to put a peacekeeping force on the border and FORCE Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah BEFORE any ceasefire agreement.

This is bad news.

I have put a photo of Israeli soldiers on my computer screen and I pray for them and our soldiers and the UK troops every time I see the photo.

Everyone, PRAY for Israel's safety PLEASE. I see bad days ahead for Israel and all her friends.

re: " "if required to wage war on the ground, it is best to invite another army,"

How true. The Lebanese army is divided and weak; not capable of doing much right now.

Both Iran and Syria don't want the Lebanese army to become strong. They would rather have hizbollah remain as the dominant players in Leabanon.

If Israel wants to win this war, then they should help to build up a strong Lebanese army filled with non-Hizbollah Lebanese citizens.

In other words, Israel should build up the Christians in Lebanon and help them to become organized militarily.

Re: "Hizbullah did not wait for the official UN Security Council announcement on a ceasefire and launched its own media campaign declaring it had 'won the war against Israel.'"

That's probably because they have BUDDIES on the UN security council that have ALREADY given them assurances. These wicked idiots on the UN Security Council have been bought out by oil and greed. NOT GOOD. This is exactly what motivated the French to 'soften' the resolution and why RUSSIA was going to veto the resolution as it stood.

It's ALL about OIL folks.

"Israel should be keeping land as war reparations, not negotiating its return. Lebanese populations on that annexed land should be permanently expelled northward, as they will no longer be lving on Lebanese soil. Start moving "the wall" north."

Talk about the reincarnation of Goebels! What a fascist! Amazing! Which hole do these people crawl from?

watcher_83,

The fascists are hizballah, pursuing a war of extermination on the Jews. They need to be visibly defeated. Wise up.

Well, first of all the concept of "The Jews" doesnt exist.There are only 5 million Jews in Isreal, around 25 Percent of the entire world community. So
there is a hardly a talk of "The Jews". Second, I rarely or never heard Nasralla refer to the Jews, but to the Zionist, their beef is only with Israel so to speak.

Second, the idea of them exterminating Israel is laughable to say the least and surely beyond their intelligence. It is Israel with the capacity and the will that is destroying Lebanon( and itself ultimately). What I mean with a fascist is someone who declares masses of suffering people only in terms of statistics of collateral damage, who has empathy for reality and can not see eye to eye with individuality. If it quacks like a duck it is a duck.

Second, the idea of Hezbolla exterminating Israel is laughable to say the least and surely beyond their intelligence. It is Israel with the capacity and the will that is destroying Lebanon(and itself ultimately). What I mean with a fascist, is someone who declares masses of suffering people only in terms of statistics of collateral damage, who has no empathy for human reality and can not see eye to eye with individuality. If it quacks like a duck it is a duck.

watcher_83,

Everything Hizballah is doing is directly inspired by the Islamic Koran. The concept of "the Jews" is clearly specified there--the Jews are either to be slaughtered or subjgated under Islamic rule as "dhimmi." There is nothing negotiable about that Islamic rule, and there is nothing ambiguous either. The Hizballah leader, Nasrallah, is simply following the Koran.

"Hizbullah declares victory"

And rightly so. Until we see Nasrallah dead and the kidnapped soldiers returned to Israel, the terrorists have won. Why is this difficult to understand? The icing on the cake will be a peace resolution and the Lebanese army in control.

From NEal Boortz:

quick check of Dictionary.com finds this definition of fascism: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism." Sound familiar? Let's see....Iran...Syria....Iraq under Saddam Hussein...The Taliban....and on and on. Fascism is what these terrorists who were trying to blow up the planes yesterday ultimately want for every country. Total Islamic domination, in other words, a theocracy.

"Everything Hizballah is doing is directly inspired by the Islamic Koran. The concept of "the Jews" is clearly specified there--the Jews are either to be slaughtered or subjgated under Islamic rule as "dhimmi."

Please, I challenge to you to bring me one verse clearly saying slaughter the Jews. It doesnt exist. If it is not there then Nasralla cant be inspired by it. If what you say is true then why didnt Hezbollah execture the Christian collaberators after the Israeli withdrawal in 2000? Instead they were handed to the Lebanese goverment. Thats is exactly the opposite of what you would have predicted. Admitt it.

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism"

I didnt say the United States is a Fascist( though it is fast catching on) I said Stendec was a Fascist, as a person.

Watcher_83 "What I mean with a fascist is someone who declares masses of suffering people only in terms of statistics of collateral damage, who has empathy for reality and can not see eye to eye with individuality."

Well, that is poor diction--that is not what "fascist" means.

In any case, your definition decribes the Islamic onslaught against Israel (and against western civilization) more than it describes anything else. Islam denies individuality--all Muslims are members of the global umma. Islam ignores all suffering except the suffering of Muslims. Indeed, Islam rejoices in the suffering of the infidels--the Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslism.

Islam, and by extension Hizballah, ("the party of Allah"), seeks to subjugate all non-Muslims under absolute Islamic sharia law. That is a fascist enterprise, without a doubt.

Please, I challenge to you to bring me one verse clearly saying slaughter the Jews.

where ISNT one,its full of them..talkin tree's and rocks sayinh"there is a jew behind me,slaughter them".

The AIPAC Case Decision and the Hopeful Prosecution of the New York Times

Well, that is also an aspect of Fascim. Conjuring up a two dimensional enemy, without thoughts or feeling, or individuality, one giant moving mass.
Dont think this something special. It has been done many time before. It has been proven wrong and disastrous every time. Why dont you call indiscriminate killing of Palestinians and Lebanese a crime? Is that because you cant see eye with them, as humans, such like I said?

"where ISNT one,its full of them..talkin tree's and rocks sayinh"there is a jew behind me,slaughter the"

Patriot, there is no such thing of trees talking in the Koran and speaking of that, what do Messianic born again Christians believe, maybe they believe that after the second coming of Christ and the victory of Israel all Jews and non-christians will have to be converted? Speak about that please.

Within the American government appeasers are attempting to prevent our government from speeding up the shipment of military equipment that Israel needs in order to save lives. The Israelis have naturally requested a speedup in the delivery of weaponry, including the M-26 anti-personnel rockets, a speed-up made necessary by the discovery of the advanced arsenal, especially of anti-tank weapons, that Hezbollah possesses in such great numbers. This is not a new request for new weapons, but merely for a hastening of their delivery.

Yet look at the front page of today's New Duranty Times, at the article "Israel Asks U.S. to Ship Rockets with Wide Blast" based on a leak by someone eager to promote opposition to such a hastened transfer. Who would that someone be, that "senior offiical" or "some State Department officials" who "have sought to delay the approval becuase of concerns over th elikelihood of civilian casualities"? Hmmm. What are their names, and what makes them think that the defeat of Hezbollah must be conducted with whatever weaponry is available, and this weaponry is not new, its order is not new, it is only a question of speediong it up. Not to do so would be terrible. It would be to condemn an ally, in the middle of a war against the ally of the most menacing Muslim state, Iran, a war that must be won in a fashion that convinces others, in Lebanon above all, that Hezbollah has been so weakened that now those Christians, those Druse, even those Sunni Muslims can deal with what remains.

The notion that Israel, which has made gigantic efforts to warn away true civilians (that is, the civilians who are not camp-followers, in every sense, of Hezbollah)from areas of conflict, on a scale unprecedented in the annals of warfare (what other army, in what other war, has spent so much time leafletting again and again, giving warnings ahead of time again and again, even though this allows much of the enemy to escape?), should not be given such weapoons now, at its time of great and compelling need, becuase of fear of "repercussions," is transparent and intolerable. There are those, even within this Administration, who are unsympathetic to Israel and unwilling to abandon the belief that in the war against Jihad, which Israel is clearly fighting, we must continue to pretend that we are not wholeheartedly on the side of those who are fighting to defend themselves, and in so doing, are showing the attitudes that need to be adopted by Infidels, not nearly as threatened physically as are the Israelis but threatened nonetheless, with other instruments of Jihad, who have so far taken not Israel's side but that of a group like Hezbollah which is no different, in any imortant way, from Al-Qaeda or Hamas, from Jaish=e-Mohammed or Gemaa Islamiyah or Jemaaa Islamiyah or the Ikhwan al-muslimin here, or there, or anywhere.

Send those weapons now, and send whatever else may be useful in the attempt to inflict the maximum amount of damage on Hezbollah. Israel has been a good ally, and it may be coming to its own senses on the nature of the threat to it. No time to discourage the Israelis, or push them back into the negotiation-treaty mode of before. Perhaps if Israeli leaders understand, and articulate better, their own situation, that will help others, especially in Western Europe, to see the threat to them. It is the same threat, prompted by the same passages in the same books, and with the intent to achieve the same goals world-wide. The Lesser Jihad against Israel, like the Lesser Jihad against India (and not merely over Kashmir) has no end. It can be contained. The damage inflicted on Muslims can constrain them; the taking away of weapons, or the diminishing of the effectiveness of such weapons as they do possess or do manage to acquire, and by "weapons" I mean not merely arms, but also the "money weapon" (oil revenues), and the "weapon" of Da'wa (which should not be permitted in the Western world, should be the subject of vigilant and well-planned monitoring and foiling at every step), and of course demographic conquest, which requires that Infidels stop believing that certain obvious steps, such as a halt, and then a reversal, of the Muslim presence in the Bilad al-kufr is simply "unthinkable" -- oh, it's very thinkable. It was thinkable to Benes and Masaryk. It was thinkable, has been thinkable, to the Kuwaitis who overnight expelled 400,000 "Palestinians" as a security threat. It was thinkable to the Saudis, who have expelled a million Yemeni workers. It was thinkable to Libya, that expelled hundreds of thousands of non-Libyan Arabs. It has been thinkable to the Muslims in control of Pakistan and of Bangladesh, who have driven Hindus out of their countries, sometimes by murder, sometimes by other methods. The "clean hands doctrine" applies here; no Muslim state has a right to protest if we in the Infidel world wish to take the most modest and obvious of measures to undo what we now must endure.

What is that, again, that we must endure? This is how it has been formulated here, and one waits, in vain, to see anyone deny its truth:

"The large-scale presence of Muslims in the lands of the Infidels has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Care to differ? Care to find something about that observation that is untrue? Go ahead. Try.

Within the American government appeasers are attempting to prevent our government from speeding up the shipment of military equipment that Israel needs in order to save lives. The Israelis have naturally requested a speedup in the delivery of weaponry, including the M-26 anti-personnel rockets, a speed-up made necessary by the discovery of the advanced arsenal, especially of anti-tank weapons, that Hezbollah possesses in such great numbers. This is not a new request for new weapons, but merely for a hastening of their delivery.

Yet look at the front page of today's New Duranty Times, at the article "Israel Asks U.S. to Ship Rockets with Wide Blast" based on a leak by someone eager to promote opposition to such a hastened transfer. Who would that someone be, that "senior official" or "some State Department officials" who "have sought to delay the approval becuase of concerns over th elikelihood of civilian casualities"? Hmmm. What are their names, and what makes them think that the defeat of Hezbollah must be conducted with whatever weaponry is available, and this weaponry is not new, its order is not new, it is only a question of speediong it up. Not to do so would be terrible. It would be to condemn an ally, in the middle of a war against the ally of the most menacing Muslim state, Iran, a war that must be won in a fashion that convinces others, in Lebanon above all, that Hezbollah has been so weakened that now those Christians, those Druse, even those Sunni Muslims can deal with what remains.

The notion that Israel, which has made gigantic efforts to warn away true civilians (that is, the civilians who are not camp-followers, in every sense, of Hezbollah)from areas of conflict, on a scale unprecedented in the annals of warfare (what other army, in what other war, has spent so much time leafletting again and again, giving warnings ahead of time again and again, even though this allows much of the enemy to escape?), should not be given such weapoons now, at its time of great and compelling need, becuase of fear of "repercussions," is transparent and intolerable. There are those, even within this Administration, who are unsympathetic to Israel and unwilling to abandon the belief that in the war against Jihad, which Israel is clearly fighting, we must continue to pretend that we are not wholeheartedly on the side of those who are fighting to defend themselves, and in so doing, are showing the attitudes that need to be adopted by Infidels, not nearly as threatened physically as are the Israelis but threatened nonetheless, with other instruments of Jihad, who have so far taken not Israel's side but that of a group like Hezbollah which is no different, in any imortant way, from Al-Qaeda or Hamas, from Jaish=e-Mohammed or Gemaa Islamiyah or Jemaaa Islamiyah or the Ikhwan al-muslimin here, or there, or anywhere.

Send those weapons now, and send whatever else may be useful in the attempt to inflict the maximum amount of damage on Hezbollah. Israel has been a good ally, and it may be coming to its own senses on the nature of the threat to it. No time to discourage the Israelis, or push them back into the negotiation-treaty mode of before. Perhaps if Israeli leaders understand, and articulate better, their own situation, that will help others, especially in Western Europe, to see the threat to them. It is the same threat, prompted by the same passages in the same books, and with the intent to achieve the same goals world-wide. The Lesser Jihad against Israel, like the Lesser Jihad against India (and not merely over Kashmir) has no end. It can be contained. The damage inflicted on Muslims can constrain them; the taking away of weapons, or the diminishing of the effectiveness of such weapons as they do possess or do manage to acquire, and by "weapons" I mean not merely arms, but also the "money weapon" (oil revenues), and the "weapon" of Da'wa (which should not be permitted in the Western world, should be the subject of vigilant and well-planned monitoring and foiling at every step), and of course demographic conquest, which requires that Infidels stop believing that certain obvious steps, such as a halt, and then a reversal, of the Muslim presence in the Bilad al-kufr is simply "unthinkable" -- oh, it's very thinkable. It was thinkable to Benes and Masaryk. It was thinkable, has been thinkable, to the Kuwaitis who overnight expelled 400,000 "Palestinians" as a security threat. It was thinkable to the Saudis, who have expelled a million Yemeni workers. It was thinkable to Libya, that expelled hundreds of thousands of non-Libyan Arabs. It has been thinkable to the Muslims in control of Pakistan and of Bangladesh, who have driven Hindus out of their countries, sometimes by murder, sometimes by other methods. The "clean hands doctrine" applies here; no Muslim state has a right to protest if we in the Infidel world wish to take the most modest and obvious of measures to undo what we now must endure.

What is that, again, that we must endure? This is how it has been formulated here, and one waits, in vain, to see anyone deny its truth:

"The large-scale presence of Muslims in the lands of the Infidels has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Care to differ? Care to find something about that observation that is untrue? Go ahead. Try.

As recounted in Patai's book "The Arab Mind," during the 1967 war, while Egypt & Syria were both getting soundly beaten by Israel on several fronts, the leaders of the Egyptian military were sending news to the Syrians that they were driving Israel into the sea. The same claim was being made by Syria, as it was turning tail pdq.
You see, for a Mooslim to state the truth "We're getting our arses kicked and better surrender" would be humiliating. Therefore, putting reality aside, one makes exaggerated, bizarre false claims in order to encourage the other Mosslim allies, endangering them, their lives, and the lives of innocents on both sides.
Too bad Israel eventually gave all or most of that acquired land back.
I think also of the Mooslims throughout the world emoting day in and day out as to the plight of the poor oppressed Palestinians, when practically none of them lift a finger or a shekel to help. And when the tsunami's and earthquakes ravage the Mooslim peoples, the relief offered by the Saracens amounts to a drop in the bucket, compared with the largesse of the West. To quote a wise man (my late father) "It's all bull*%@&."

Palestinian leaders traditionally have taught that the following Hadith applies today:

The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

o.k its a hadith big whoop,

Patriot, there is no such thing of trees talking in the Koran and speaking of that, what do Messianic born again Christians believe, maybe they believe that after the second coming of Christ and the victory of Israel all Jews and non-christians will have to be converted? Speak about that please.

i dont know what the Messianic born again Christians believe,doubt its talkin things preachin murder

Why dont you call indiscriminate killing of Palestinians and Lebanese a crime? Is that because you cant see eye with them, as humans, such like I said?

it is a crime,one that the lebanese need to take up with hesbolah,they started the killing,and brought isreal on top of them.

"The large-scale presence of Jews and Christians in the lands of Palestine and Iraq has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Care to differ? Care to find something about that observation that is untrue? Go ahead. Try.

Hugh, dont pretend like you speak for the world. You might consider the existence of people different then you unpleasant, but these are all the feeling of a rightwinger nothing more, nothing less. How can
I argue with someone who considers Muslims driving a Taxi unpleasant?

That Muslim taxi driver just may drive you into a crowd and be a contributing soldier of JIHAD. If you are in the cab and a cry comes out ALLAH AKBAR,, by all means JUMP OUT.

That Muslim taxi driver just may drive you into a crowd and be a contributing soldier of JIHAD. If you are in the cab and a cry comes out ALLAH AKBAR,, by all means JUMP OUT."

Tell me about it, that happens every day.

muslims doing ANYTHING is un-pleasant.

muslims doing ANYTHING is un-pleasant.

My God, what wisdom!

Most cockroaches probably declare victory for themselves when they are stepped on by human shoes and survive to limp around for one more day.

watcher_83 said:
Please, I challenge to you to bring me one verse clearly saying slaughter the Jews. It doesnt exist.

Have a look at
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=118&t=11878&st=0&#entry125168

Speaking at a graduation ceremony in Haret Hreik, Nasrallah announced on October 22, 2002: "if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."[5][6]

The New York Times qualifies this as "genocidal thinking"[7], whereas the New York Sun likens it to the 1992 Hezbollah statement, which vowed, "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."[8] Michael Rubin qualifies his goal as genocide too, quoting Nasrallah ruling out "co-existence with" the Jews or "peace", as "they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."[9]

Then try this
http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158

Nasrallah and Jews

Within a month of Nasrallah’s taking over as leader, Hezbollah (with the help of Iranian intelligence) bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200. The next attack perpetrated by Hezbollah—again with Iranian help—was the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, killing 86 and injuring over 200.

The widening arena of Hezbollah’s attacks stemmed from Nasrallah’s perception that Jews anywhere are legitimate targets. In fact, Nasarallah has said:

If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

Shiite scholar Amal Saad-Ghorayeb analyzed the anti-Jewish roots of Hezbollah ideology in her book Hezbollah: Politics & Religion. In it, she quotes Hassan Nasrallah describing his antipathy toward Jews:

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)

not wisdom,just comon sense.

OT . . .about Iraq

Catch this NPR report while it remains online -

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5622900

Inocuously, it begins . . . August 7, 2006 · Sectarian strife continues to worsen in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad. John Hendren is wrapping up the latest of more than a dozen visits to the war zone since early 2003. He sends us this reporter's notebook about Iraq.

snip to crux of report . . .

… shepherds in the rural western Baghdad neighborhood of Gazalea have recently been murdered, according to locals, for failing to diaper their goats….

All due to the sexual tensions wrought by Sharia.

"one makes exaggerated, bizarre false claims..." -Baghdad Bob

Watcher_83:

I believe the "trees and rocks" thing (reporting on the Jews hiding behind them, so they can be slain) is in the Hadith, the sayings of Mohammed (re patriot8 comment).

As far as I know, there is not "one verse," taken by itself, in the Koran that tells Muslims to kill Jews. There is plenty in that book to define the Jews as evil idolaters, who will suffer the wrath of Allah. And the Koran requires every Muslim believer to fight the idolators to carry out the wrath of Allah.

2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

The example of the "Battle of Khaybar"--wherein the Muslims under Mohammed's command sneaked up on the Jews (who, that morning, were not performing the Muslim morning prayer, thereby proving to Mohammed that they were idolaters) at the Khaybar Oasis and slaughtered many of them, driving the rest out, except for some farmers who were enslaved as dhimmi--is the model for Lebanon/Hizbollah action. That's why the Hizballah guys name their rockets "Khaybar."

"Within a month of Nasrallah’s taking over as leader, Hezbollah (with the help of Iranian intelligence) bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200. The next attack perpetrated by Hezbollah—again with Iranian help—was the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, killing 86 and injuring over 200."

Well, that is news to me!! The typical thing about these terror groups is that they are always proud to take responsibility. The only problem is Hezbollah denied it and another group called Islamic Jihad took responsibility, as retalitation for an assasinated Hezobollah leader. So give me some evidence, or remain quite please. Recycling urban myth is not going to help you. It was the United States which claimed an Iranian connection.
Funny you can quote such statements, since I watched Al Manar(didnt like it) and I listened to
his recent speeches and he never said any such thing, never once saying the word Jew, but refering instead to the Zionist entity.

They are like two legged animals

Menachem Beggin, former Prime minister

They will scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle

Moshe Dayan about Palestinians in the West Bank

For every rocket fired, we should flatten 10 Lebanese villages.
Amir Peretz, defence minister

The only thing I feel is a slight tremor in my wing.

Dan Halutz, chieff of staff, when asked about how he felt when dropping bombs on Lebanon.

I am accused by a Muslim poster above of being a "rightwinger." How does he know? Does he know something about my views on Social Security, on Medicare, on school vouchers, on abortion, on non-Muslim immigration, on the current health of federalism, on any issue -- but that of Islam? He appears to believe that those of us who have learned about Islam, about its texts, about its effect on the minds of its adherents, about the methods used by the clever apologists among its adherents to distract opponents, or to deflect criticism, or to confuse with a ceaseless fog-machine of taqiyya-and-tu-quoque, msst be
"right-wing." This is no different, of course, from the demonization of the Maronites during the Lebanese Civil War, when Le Monde and The Times and other newspapers continued to call the Christians, the victims of massacres by Muslims, especially but not only the PLO, at Damur and a hundred other sites, "right wing" Christians, with no further explanation or justification.
It's nonsense.

What this poster means is that he cannot answer my question, he cannot explain why every day more and more Infidels in deliberately, systematically, comically hyper-tolerant Western Europe, are coming to agree with, can find no way to convincingly disagree with, the statement I made above and which I invited him to rebut, but he cannot. All he can do is call me a "right-winger."

For those who missed it above, that statement is given here again -- the one to which a Muslim poster takes offense, but offers no rebuttal:

"The large-scale presence of Jews and Christians in the lands of Palestine and Iraq has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Print it out for yourself. Commit it to memory. Use it in discussions. Put in on your refrigerator. Tease out the details, of both Islamic doctrine and Muslim practice, that lie behind it. Ask yourself what is meant by "greater unpleasantness" and "greater expense" and "physically more dangerous"? Use it wherever you wish, because even if people disagree on the remedy, they cannot disagree as to the nature of the illness introduced into the Western world, by adherents of Islam.

justamomof4 , some private house.
Ugly a$$ bedspread too
Go IDF, destroy them .

Turn on FoxNews
Olmert just ordered a full attack. Rejected UN accord.

dudes gots some stones,goergie you should be paying attention.

I seem to recall a movie called "Sadat" which starred Louis Gosset Jr. I remember how the Egyptian media (propaganda) was touting a huge victory for arab forces against Israel in 1967. It was all a lie, and I think this is somehow how Sadat got into power in the first place when it became apparent that Nasser had been lying. Perhaps some of you history buffs can explore this concept and see how it relates to comments made today by Hezbollah.

Watcher_83, why don't you just come out and tell everyone the truth. You are a supporter of jihad and would shed no more tears seeing israel destroyed than if a sandcastle were washed into the sea. I hate to make generalizations about muslims, but since day after day we are bombarded with images of Imams and lay-Muslims call for the death and destruction of Jews, the infidels, Israel and America, I can only conclude that Islam is an enemy of my country, my government, and myself. And people like you watcher_83 support and facilitate their madness. Other people may do as they wish, but this infidels head will never be cut off by some bloodthirsty muj-motherfucker.

A MUST SEE: BROTHERS IN ARMS - IDF

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/news/brothers.htm

AM ISRAEL CHAI!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html
Qur'an 2:191
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

BTW, as I watch the progress of the Useless Nations, I get that familiar feeling in my stomach of simultaneous nausea and diarrhea. Every word uttered by these stuffed suits further perpetuates the silliness that is the UN. What will hapen when this resolution falls through? Will they resolutely resolve to make an even more "strongly worded" resolution?

Hugh, you went over my head with that statement. Care to explain?

"The large-scale presence of Jews and Christians in the lands of Palestine and Iraq has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Frank I agree with you, leftists, those that are Marxists (and not all leftists are Marxists BTW), do indeed have tunnel vision and see events as being the fault of economic inequities and classism, however the right also has it's own tunnel vision and there is no communication between left and right, nothing but name calling and demonization, because both see the world through their own lenses darkly..

In other words, left and right look at life, events and others through the bottom of a coke bottle.

I am in some aspects conservative (right wing) and in others liberal (left wing).. but I am not a self righteous Christian, atheist, Jew, Muslim, theocrat, nor an economic ideoloque..in fact that is the problem.. the penchant for ideological, religious purity..a persons believes that they have to eat everything on the menu, or choose to eat everything on the menu and thus give up to the control by others, of their ability to discriminate, reason, think for themselves and arrive at their own opinions.. and thus no problems are every solved.

Newsflash Bush is backing down, he is defining Islamic fascist as al Qaeda, and is blaming these event on al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is a movement, not an organization and al Qaeda is synonymous with true Islam, but Bush doesn't have the cajones to push or stand by that fact. Meanwhile he and his administration are running from the Muslim assault, because as we know Muslims are offended when the kaffir speaks truth

Frank I agree with you, leftists, those that are Marxists (and not all leftists are Marxists BTW), do indeed have tunnel vision and see events as being the fault of economic inequities and classism, however the right also has it's own tunnel vision and there is no communication between left and right, nothing but name calling and demonization, because both see the world through their own lenses darkly..

In other words, left and right look at life, events and others through the bottom of a coke bottle.

I am in some aspects conservative (right wing) and in others liberal (left wing).. but I am not a self righteous Christian, atheist, Jew, Muslim, theocrat, nor an economic ideoloque..in fact that is the problem.. the penchant for ideological, religious purity..a persons believes that they have to eat everything on the menu, or choose to eat everything on the menu and thus give up to the control by others, of their ability to discriminate, reason, think for themselves and arrive at their own opinions.. and thus no problems are every solved.

My educated guess is that Hugh did a fast cut- and-paste from another poster's revision of Hugh's quote. Here's Hugh's original:

"The large-scale presence of Muslims in the lands of the Infidels has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Frank wrote:

"They [Leftists] don't understand that this is about religion because they don't understand religion as a motive for anything."

Sure they do -- when it comes to white Western Christians and Jews: then, suddenly, Leftists see the light of nefarious religious motivations in politics.

With Leftism (and with the wider sociopolitical penumbra, modern Gnosticism, under which Leftism lies), it is all about simply being anti-West, no matter how much self-contradiction and incoherence might be involved.

If we just try to look beyond the propaganda, the cease-fire may be good for Israel too. Obviously, they were not prepared for this type of war. This will give them time to implement the right solutions to Hezbollah both politically and technically and come better prepared to the next bout. IMHO, they were not prepared for the anti-tank missiles. They have to have a strategy for this. They need to implement phalanxes (or something of that kind) to defend the cities agains the katyusha rocket, and they need to develop a balistic GPS-guided bomb response to the katyusha lanchers in order to deal with them economically and efficiently. Posted by: Marvin

Take it from an experienced guerilla fighter, there is only one way to defeat Hizbollah, and that is the Khe Sanh solution, carpet bomb the towns, napalm them and then be prepared to take the flack from the international community.

It is the same with the "insurgency" in Iraq, totally obliterate the towns that harbor the insurgents, but first we have to prepare the ground of public opinion.

There are no innocent civilians, these towns and communities willingly harbor Hizbollah and the insurgents in Iraq.. the people there know who they are, where they are and what they are doing.. ergo they are not innocent, but they are support troops, just like a transportation and supply company are the support troops for regular armies.

Israel is very humane, and self defeating, it warns the population before it bombs a target, thus giving Hizbollah an opportunity to get out of the way.. it is all insane.

WE, the west, never had such concerns and sensitivities in WWII, and in truth allied bombing and our assault on the NAZI's in France killed more French than were killed by the Germans, and where was the hand wringing, moaning and whining about "innocent civilians".

Google "there are no innocent civilians" and you will come up with Muslim sites that state there are no innocent civilians.. why should we disable ourselves in a fight for survival.. "because we are better than them?" nonsense that is suicidal.

Well,Hugh what on earth is there to debate? You want me to debate of whether Muslims should be allowed to study whatever they choose, to choose their career as they want to, to come in contact witht non muslims if their profession asks it from them? What on earth is there to debate? You dont like being called a righwinger, but out of your mouth come statements like "Israel has been remarkably restrained" or "Palestinians are just local Arabs"(never mind that the majority are not ethnic Arabs at all)and "Muslims should not study Nuclear Physics and drive a Taxi". What do you call someone whose Ideas border on the extreme? These believe are traditionally part of the right and conservative and if I am not mistaken you consider yourself a conservative.You draw conclusions about Islam and then try to find a common natural law for how Muslims should and should not behave. I have got news for you. I can give you aspects of Judaism, of the halacha which have all the adjective which you give to Islam. Why not act like an Anti-Semite and make a generalization about a imaginative mentality? Again I ask, what is there to debate? Every thingle verse from the Koran you show me to support you opinion I can rebuttle very easily.
Actually, none of those ideas of dhimmitude you can take out the Koran.

"Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairest manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you: Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered'. 29:45

Watcher_83,

Those of us who have sat down with the Quran, Hadith and Sharia derive our opinions of Islam from these texts, more so than the fruit of the adherents of them. It is absolutely not acceptible to excuse hate, incitement, dehumanization and xenophobia in Islamic religious canon on account of such problems in the minds of non-Muslims. Other religions are simply not so evil. It is not the opinions of some Christians or Israelis or Jews that are the equivalent; it is rather the LACK of equivalent doctrines that separate all other world religions from Islam. While there are vile passages here or there, in Islam is it of a cloth.

This might be hard for you to understand; you no doubt have not read the Quran, Hadith and Sharia as I have. It is after all me and my people who are singled out for hatred, subjugation and eventual extermination and not yours (unless you are a Jew that is). The Quran is relentlessly hateful of non-Muslims, and conspiritorial in its depiction of Jews, and advocates they subjugation. The Hadith (at least the Buhkari Hadith which I have) is laden with vitriol against the Jews, including the advocacy of their extermination, from the mouth of Muhammad himself. If you would like I can quote the specfic Hadith; however you should be able to find it yourself with just a little research.

Do not think I came to these conclusions out of hate or bigotry. I get along with virtually everyone including the Muslims I know personally. I used to buy the "religion of peace" and moral equivalence nonense. The sad reality is that this is not borne out by a reading of the canonical texts. The sooner non-Muslims come to grips with this issue, the sooner we can deal with the consequences, and for that matter the sooner Muslims do, the sooner Islam will be radically reformed or simply abandoned for the intellectual, moral and cultural albatross that it is. It is a painful realization. I denied it to myself for a long time, but it is VERY hard to study any canonical Islamic text and not be surprised by the xenophobia, triumphalism and Jew-hatred which long predates the foundation of modern Israel, or any reasonable grievance.

I suggest you start with the 8th and 9th Suras of the Quran, and don't read them as if you are a Muslim but rather a non-Muslim. You can also find detailed online indices of Islamic texts sorted by subject, often with parallel translations, in case you are of the "it's just mistranslated " mindset. I also recommend "Reliance of the Traveller", available in English. It is a manual of Islamic law, and makes clear the position of non-Muslims in the Islamic worldview, how they are to be treated, what the consequences of the murder are, and what should be done to apostates of Islam.

You will see clearly the Islam is at its core hateful and seeks to subjugate or exterminate all competing worldviews and faiths. This and not anything else is the kernel from which the conflicts between Islam and the rest of the world arise, and have since Muhammad began the Jihad-conquest of the world 1350 years ago, a battle that has continued to the present day, interrupted only by circumstances which proved to be temporary. It is laudable that non-Muslims have managed to push back this tide, in Spain, in the Balkans, in India, in Southeast Asia, and now in Israel.

Am Yisrael Chai!

IMHO, you can only deal with people who use violence as a means of expression with the same bitter medicine. Urelenting, brutal bloody violence is the only language Muslims understand and I for one wish the US to give to them, not by the spoonfull but by the truckload. Male them understand that attacking us and our interests will only result in pain pain pain pain pain and eventually death. These people have the mentality of children, ie. make enough fuss and you get what you want. To that, the West should adopt the atitude of "spare the rod, spoil the child."

I am in some aspects conservative (right wing) and in others liberal (left wing).. but I am not a self righteous Christian, atheist, Jew, Muslim, theocrat, nor an economic ideoloque

I'd think the same would go for most people here.

This is slightly off-topic, but there is an interesting thought that there is a tension between "religion" and the free market. The problem with generalizations such as this is that they obscure as much as they inform: we here, for example, would be very much aware that Islam is more than just a religion; it is a religio-political system. But, for what it is worth, here is the thought - it comes from Roger Scruton:

The problem for conservatism is to reconcile the many and often conflicting demands that these various forms of life impose on us. The free-market ideologues take one instance of spontaneous order, and erect it into a prescription for all the others. They ask us to believe that the free exchange of commodities is the model for all social interaction. But many of our most important forms of life involve withdrawing what we value from the market: sexual morality is an obvious instance, city planning another. (America has failed abysmally in both those respects, of course.)

Looked at from the anthropological point of view religion can be seen as an elaborate (and spontaneous) way in which communities remove what is most precious to them (i.e. all that concerns the creation and reproduction of community) from the erosion of the market. A cultural conservative, such as I am, supports that enterprise. I would put the point in terms that echo Burke and Chesterton: the free market provides the optimal solution to the competition among the living for scarce resources; but when applied to the goods in which the dead and the unborn have an interest ... it wastes what must be saved.

An Interview with Roger Scruton

Our Islamic poster writes:

Within a month of Nasrallah’s taking over as leader, Hezbollah (with the help of Iranian intelligence) bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200. The next attack perpetrated by Hezbollah—again with Iranian help—was the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, killing 86 and injuring over 200."

Well, that is news to me

This is from news report in 1994:

Interestingly enough, intelligence sources had reportedly told Al Hayat, last week, that a Hezbollah attack could be expected "in an area other than Lebanon and Syria". Additionally, the perpetrators were to "take into consideration" recently more friendly ties between Iran and European countries like France and Germany. Obviously, that left South America as a viable target. According to the same sources at Al Hayat, Hezbollah has previously made claims that it has an "underground" organization in place, in six different countries, that could carry out terrorist acts "within a very short time". Experts say that the network must have included at least some contacts in Argentina

Has anyone ever considered that Islamic civillization had its greatness, its moments of
discovery, of science, culture and tolerance, of advandced learning, of beauty and cultivation?
You call the Spanish Inquisition, destroying the Jewish and Muslims cultural life and burning their synagogues, mosques and libraries "pushing back the tide"?I can rather say you have a closed mentality when you call everything that Israel does self defence.
I am sorry, I dont think you read the Koran. It is considerably less vicious in its war verses and dealing with non-muslims then the old Testament. Most verses dealing with war end by telling Muslims to halt their aggression when the conflict has ended.

There Koran says,

There is no compulsion in religion,truth stand out clear from error
2:256

There is nothing comparable in other religious text

It's a abrogated verse, as you known damn well. Take your lies elsewhere: they're not going to work here.

Watcher83: Standec get's the picture, but you don't. You can argue little points of literature, or quote this general or that politician, or compare a soldier to a terrorist as much as you like.

All of this just obscures the truth, which you WILL NOT face. In the terrible, horrible end there is only one lonely conclusion that leaves an emptiness in the stomachs of all civilized people. After all the analysis and argument, and parsing of words, there is only this one simple, unvarnished, bare and naked truth:

The problem is islam.

Many of us realize this, and many more are coming to this truth every day. There are others who hope this conclusion is not true. Some have vested interests in avoiding this conclusion. Some may have an emotional attachment to a previous position, stated or otherwise. And some may have a prejudice against certain people, stated or otherwise.

For those of us who accept the veracity of our senses, the legitimacy of logic, and even the recognition that some facts and nuances must forever remain unknown or unknowable while decisions must nevertheless be made NOW, we understand the implications of the conclusion I have stated above.

You are free to accept or reject that conclusion at any time, and all the time. And if you reject that conclusion, then your actions will be judged accordingly, just as you judge ours.

For those of us who recognize the simple truth I have stated, the only question (and a huge question it is) is the ethical one of "What do we do about it now?" We are debating that here.

So, please let us get on with our parts in this serious business of a new world war.

Thank you.

and digging a little deeper

In November 2005, an Argentine prosecutor said Alberto Nisman, a 21-year-old from Lebanon was the suicide bomber who blew up the AMIA. Nisman said the man belonged to Hezbollah. According to Nisman, relatives identified the man from photographs. The probe into the bombing, he said, had not ruled out an Iranian connection

There's a very good article by Alan Dershowitz at Frontpage Mag. Here's the link:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23823

Did Baghdad Bob find a new job?

There are no innocent civilians, these towns and communities willingly harbor Hizbollah and the insurgents in Iraq.. the people there know who they are, where they are and what they are doing.. ergo they are not innocent, but they are support troops, just like a transportation and supply company are the support troops for regular armies.

Well, seeing that a majority of Americans support foreign invasions and as Ward Churchill said the 3000 people in the Twin Towers were all "little Eichmanns", working to sustain an Empire, why should
I know believe,using your logic or lack of it, that the attacks on 11 September were a terror strike, not simply strategic targeting? You dont like that?
Tough luck. Unless you a rabid racist(which you are), then the same has to be fair for you. If we take a little bit further then attempted attackst at Heathrow must not be considered terror, but legitimate resistance. Good luck trying to sort out.

watcher 83 - While a study of history can be informative, I look to more recent Islamic governments such as the Taliban and the Iranian theocracy for an understanding of what life might be like if the west is Islamicized. Under the Taliban there was no golden age of art music or bugger-all, only a litany of violence and crimes against women. I recall the Iranian mullahs recruiting companies of teen aged boys to trot along in front of their regular infantry to clear mine fields. By their fruits shall ye know them.

Has anyone ever considered that Islamic civillization had its greatness, its moments of
discovery, of science, culture and tolerance, of advandced learning, of beauty and cultivation?

ya i considered it,but then i wiped my @ss with my koran from cair.Just what did they ever do to enhance civillization?islam has destroyed many civillizations,what marvils could have the builders of the pyrimids taught the world?never know,they were islamatized,their knowledge lost forever,the wonders of knowledge in the libary in Alexandrea?islam hates knowledge,it was destroyed.islam wants to rule the world,and no doubt they will wipe out any knowledge the world has gained,if they get it.

Maybe you should mention that Hezbollah calimed that
yes, they have a fighter who was killed in combat with the same name as the alleged suicide bomber, Ibrahim Hussein Berro. But ofcourse for you every Muslim is guilty before trial.I say, get your evidence straight. Hezbollah is internationally isolated, they have no reason to deny anything they do and they have always proven to be honest. It is well known that the average Israeli trusts what Nasralla says, hint: Haifa.

There is nothing comparable in other religious text -from above

After 9/11, I decided to read both the Bible and Qu’ran cover to cover and try to keep the religious debate based on text rather than opinion (not a particular fan of organized religions). I can’t do book reviews justice and won’t try, but I’ll give my overall impressions of both:

The Old Testament is a history, injected with morality, written by a series of people who believe in a higher power. The human history described is brutal.

The Qu’ran was written by a man, who in my opinion, seemed to be self-obsessed.

Has anyone ever considered that Islamic civillization had its greatness, its moments of
discovery, of science, culture and tolerance, of advandced learning, of beauty and cultivation?

Never of it's own greatness, discovery, science, culture, tolerence. It is by it's nature a parasitical culture. It has ravaged and taken by force every culture it has met.

The lapidary phrase I offered about the large-scale presence of Muslims, which is essentially a procut only of the past 30 years, 30 years of criminally negligent behavior on the part of Infidel elites who chose not to look into, or to ignore, features of Islam that are central to the faith, apparently has annoyed several Muslim visitors to this site.

One of them attempts to turn -- cleverly, as he thinks -- the tables on me, by simply substituting the words "Jews and Christians" for "Muslims" and changing the lands in question from the Bilad al-kufr, the Land of Infidelity or, more colloquially, the Lands of the Infidels, and asking if what he arrives at is not equally true. In other words, is not the American presence in Iraq and the Jewish presence in what he calls "Palestine" (a name quite foreign to the Arabs and Muslims, and only appropriated within the last century, for obvious political reasons, to be followed by the invention, out of the local Arabs, of the "Palestinian people" -- see Zuheir Mohsein, head of the terrorist group As Saiqa, on that deliberate concoction and its spread, in a Dutch newspaper, Trouw) for the local Muslims also creating a situation that for them is "unpleasant" and "expensive" and "physically dangerous"?

Here is how he puts it:

"The large-scale presence of Jews and Christians in the lands of Palestine and Iraq has led to a situation, for those indigenous Infidels, that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without that large-scale presence."

Now let's see. When the Jews from outside the area that became Mandatory Palestine decided to return to what had become a largely desolate and ruined region -- by the unanimous testimony, which has been preserved, by many distinguished and entirely undistiniguished travellers -- keeping in mind of course that even before Zionism as a modern political movement began, there were always communities of Jews that had lived continuously in Safed, in Hebron, and in Jerusalem (and possibly, though I am not sure, in Tiberias). In 1850 more Jews than Christians or Muslims lived in Jerusalem. Jerusalem, and Zion, was the focus of attention in the rituals and the longings of Jews, and that is so easily demonstrated, even say, by a non-Jew's rudimentary acquaintance with the Passover ceremony, that to argue about it merely betrays ignorance.

And under Ottoman rule, of course, as in so many parts of that empire, the cultural, linguistic, religious, and other cleansing that the Arabs have brought everywhere -- look at Alexandria today, and compare with what it was in 1930, or what Baghdad was in 1920 -- has indeed attempted to remove not only non-Muslims, but even to suppress many non-Arab Muslims. The very idea of the "Arab World" is a recent concoction, supported by the eager American propagandists, currying favor with the Saudis, by promoting this idea of an "Arab world" that forgot about the Maronites, the Copts, the Jews, the Armenians, and all the others. No, it was all to belong to the Arabs, the most perfect of people, the people who had received first the Message of Islam, and from whom sprung the Perfect Man, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, Muhammad.

What about the Jews of "Palestine"? Apparently they are a trouble to the Muslim Arabs. And so they are, because they dare to have resurrected their commonwealth, dare not only to have provided refuge to Jews who had survived the camps in Europe, but to the nearly million Jews who had lived, always in conditions of uncertainty and permanent potential danger, and in some places, such as Yemen (from which so many of Israel's Arabic-speaking Jews have come) as virtual chattel slaves, people whom, even in the 1950s, as reported by the English scholar (not exactly sympathetic to the Jews), R. S. Serjeant, living in such conditions so that, if a Jew "belonging" to Arab Tribe A was killed by a member of Arab Tribe B, then an Arab of Tribe A had the right, in return, to kill a Jew "belonging" to Arab Tribe B. This was what happened not a thousand years ago, but today, in the lifetime of those Jews from the Yemen who fled to Israel.

According to the Muslim poster, the Jews really have no right to live in the MIddle East in a state of their own. They can live, no doubt, in his view, as dhimmis, whether spread out among the various 22 members of the Arab League, in lands that in area are nearly a thousand times the size of tiny, nearly invisible-on-the-map Israel. But they are not entitled to live as a majority, in a state that they control. Arab Muslims must everywhere dominate, must everywhere rule, can never accept their own permanent status, anywhere, as a minority. That would be wrong. But it is not wrong, in the ARab view, for the Jews, despite having become, after the seizure of their land by Muslim invaders and the large-scale appropriation of it, and the way in which so many tried and did hold on, and yet many others fled, fled to Europe despite all the silly talk about just how "tolerant" the Muslims were of Jews, how much "better" they were than the people of Western Christendom.

Of course the Arabs do not like the state of Israel. It is "unpleasant" for them to look at a map and see non-Arabs and non-Muslims possessing any land that was once under Muslim rule. Muslims have been quite clear that Israel is only the first, but hardly the only territory, to be re-acquired. So too will Andalus, or Spain, and Sicily, and Sardinia, and the lands of the Balkans and Romania and Bulgaria and parts of Hungary. But in the end even that does not exhaust Muslim and Arab goals, for the Qur'an does not say "be satisfied with" this or that piece of land. The Qur'an does not say "take whatever was once under the rule of the best of peoples but leave the rest to the Infidels." No, the Qur'an says that the world is rightly yours, and you must engage in the Jihad, in the path of God, to make sure that obstacles to Islam are everywhere overcome, and Islam comes everywhere to dominate, and Muslims to rule.

So, no doubt the existence of Israel is "unpleasant." And of course it is "expensive" too because the Arabs have poured, over their years of effort, hundreds of billions of non-earned money, both the Jizyah of aid extorted from Infidel countries, and the money that has flowed in, unmerited and unearned, from the accidenet of geology without which the Arabs and Muslims would still be able to puruse their Lesser Jihad against Israel, but not their Greater Jihad against Infidels and their laws, institutions, wellbeing throughout the world, wherever those Infidels dare to remain Infidels and dare not to appease Muslims and meet their outrageous demands.

But Israel is hardly "physically dangerous" for Arabs as long as they do not attack it. Does anyone believe that Israel wishes to wipe off the face of the map 22 Arab states, or even one Arab state? Does anyone think if Hezbollah had not spent at leasst the last six years busily digging vast networks of bunkers, smuggling in or even simply bringing in, so indiffrent was the Lebanese government, between 12,000 and 15,000 missiles, and huge stores of the most advanced equipment that Iran, and Syria, could provide, that Israel would be in Lebanon now? If Egypt and Syria had not attacked in 1973, would Israel have attacked it? If Nasser had not, in May 1967, demanded that U Thant pull the U.N. force out of the Sinai, had not institued a blockade of the Straits of Tiran, thus cutting off Israel's trade lifeline to Asia, if Nasser had not shut down the Suez Canal, had not held rally after rally where hysterical Cairene crowds shrieked their approval -- in the style we Infidels have all become so accusomted to by now, and not only in relation to Isarel -- for Nasser's plan to do what the Arabs tried unsuccesssfully to do in 1948, which is to say to wipe Israel off the face of the map, in a massacre that, Azzam Pasha said in 1948, would make the massacres of the Mongols pale by comparison -- would Israel have been a war at all on June 5, 1967, and won the territory which it did win, and which, by all the rules of warfare, and as far as Gaza and the "West Bank" are concerned, supported by the express terms of the League of Nations's Mandate for Palsestine, Israel has a claim far superior to that of any Arab dclaimant.

Now what about "Iraq"? So you think the Americans in Iraq have created a situation that is far more "unpleasant" and "expensive" and "physically dangerous" for people in Iraq? Do you? Do you remember what the regime of Saddam Hussein was like? Do you think the Kurds feel that the American presence in Iraq has caused them to have lives more "unpleasant" and "expensive" and "physically dangerous" now that they have a chance to withstand the bullying and persecution and murder at the hands of the Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a? Do you? What about the Shi'a Arabs, who no doubt are utterly ungrateful to us for freeing them from Saddam Hussein's thinly-disguised Sunni despotism, but are their lives worse than they were before, or do they stand to inherit most of Iraq, even if they still hate their liberators because, as those liberators forgot to remember, they are and always will be Infidels, to Shi'a and Sunni Arabs alike.

I agree on one thing. I agree that the presence of Americans in Iraq is "unpleasant" for our officres and men, and terrifically "expensive" for us, in our dreamy belief that Islam did not matteer, that people were more or less the same, that the Iraqis were in fact truly represented by such westernized and secularized and advanced men such as Chalabi and Allawi and Kanan Makiya. We were wrong. Islam is Islam, and we should leave Iraq at once, leave the unpleasantness, and the unnecessary expense, and the physical insecurity, to those ungrateful and permanently hostile, and hope that they fight with each other, the Sunnis in refusing to acquiesce to their loss of power, the Shi'a in refusing to give up any of that newly-gaioned political and econmic power, and what's more, not only to fight, but to bring in the men, money, and materiel from co-religiionists from outside, and to unsettle Sunni-Shi'a relations even more than they already are, in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait and Lebanon, in Yemen and Pakistan -- and thus to weaken the camp of Islam.

May something like the Iran-Iraq War go on forever, and may the Americans leave quickly so that it can develop, as it so naturally, so inevitably, will.

There is nothing comparable in other religious text

OMG, I may hurl. From a book that discusses how to "play with" a little girl, how to "fondle" a girl in her menses, how to split skulls, and torture, build a fire on a man's chest! God, spare us from this anathema.

Iranians are currently in Iraq, killing Iraqis, of course.

Some things will go on forever, as you say.

Islam is death, and will go on until it dies.

Speaking to the "greatness" of islamic "discovery", let us not forget that even today, venerated Islamic clerics still refuse to accept the fact that the earth revolves around the sun. Is this the greatness of islam that watcher_83 wishes to remind us of?

Further news on the Buenos Aires bombing shows Hezbollah involvement with Iranian help---much like the Lebanon situation today.

Shortly after the bombing, a group calling itself Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility and the investigation soon focused on Iranian complicity. In May 1998, the Argentine government announced that it had "convincing proof" of Iranian involvement in the bombing and expelled seven Iranian diplomats from the country. This followed the detention in Germany of Moshen Rabbani, who had served as Cultural Attache in the Iranian Embassy in Argentina until December of 1997. Rabbani was alleged to have assisted in planning the bombings along with four Iranian spies who entered the country from the Paraguayan border town of Ciudad del Este, a center of Hezbollah activity in the region. According to reports in the Argentine press, intercepted telephone conversations from the Iranian Embassy and testimony from Ismanian Khosrow, one of the detained Iranians, corroborated Iranian involvement

Deceit is an Islamic pillar. So, is denial.Their pattern of deceit and denial is so obvious today. Their lies are easily spotted. When presented with undeniable truth they resort to anger and death.

Does this mean I'll live to be 100?

Yeah right -- you won! Israel is about to prove you wrong, Hez, because your terrorist days are going to be short lived.

l find it amusing how muslims like this watcher have selected outrage over the killings of muslims. where was the outrage of saddam kiling other muslims in and and out of his country, the thousands upon of thousands of black muslims from Dafur, the Jorden king killed thousands of paleo muslims, etc. so you see there are much more muslims killing each other, and no screaming for ceasefires for these killing. l think the West should just stand back, from which l am told is being done is Iraq, and let muslims wipe out each other. they are doing allah's work. poor watcher you are so brain dead. were you born a muslim or a convert. if you were born a muslim, l would not be so hard on you than if you were a convert. become a human and leave islam, you will feel better, prol. smell better as well.

If the god of the moslems is one and the same with the God of Israel, (and yes, the caps are on purpose) then why would such a great and loving god direct moslems to destroy his Chosen People? Either a) These two gods are as separate as can be and claims to the contrary are rubbish, or b) those who call for the destruction of Israel and the Jews are apostates themselves. Going back to option "a", I must ask this question; If allah and Yahweh are indeed the same entity and the Quran is the embodiment of the infallible word of allah, then what true moslem would dare wage war on his fellow children of god? Conversely, if this Quranic statement is false and allah and Yahweh are not one and the same, then how much more of the Quran is open to questioning?

watcher should go home and help his Hezbollah buddies. they are going to need help.

Watcher-83 is reminiscent of a poster here from the same school called Saladin back in June. Saladin informed us that his learning difficulties was the result of using the 'herb' skunk. The moniker 'watcher-83' we know little about other than his I.Q.

The new attack looks like it's going to be the broad offensive that the Israelis have been threatening for the last few days.

"Hizballah declares victory"

This is news? Hizballah declares victory every day.

With Leftism (and with the wider sociopolitical penumbra, modern Gnosticism, under which Leftism lies), it is all about simply being anti-West, no matter how much self-contradiction and incoherence might be involved. Posted by: Television

Man are you ever wrong, but I will say this, you have an identical mindset as the Islamist.

Leftists are not modern Gnostics, but all considered I have more respect for a gnostic than I do for a literalist (e.g. member of the Christian or Islamic cults).

I've been arguing with Muslims for years on the internet, and they make statements remarkably like yours.. in fact all I have to do is change left to right and west to Islam and I have a statement that could emanate from the mouth of a muslim.. and has.

The epitomy of incoherence and self contradiction my friend emanates from the mouths of believers.. whatever their belief and basis may be?

You have a lot more in common with the Muslims than you would or could admit or recognize.

Good night -- there's an herb called skunk? Or is that marijuana? Go ahead and laugh if it is, because everyone else does when it comes to how naive I am about marijuana. There are way too many knicknames for this stuff that I can barely keep up.

What I meant to say Television is that APPARENTLY you allow divisive, hypocritical morons like Bill Oreilly and Rushed Limpballs do your thinking for you.

And so long as you, and they keep up that line of thinking, then indeed the ultimate victory will go to Islam.

You can't fight and win a war on two fronts, not when you are outnumbered and lack the resources of the others.. and you are fighting a war on two fronts, an internal and external culture war. The internal culture war is totally self inflicted and unnecessary, and it weakens you and us in the face of the real threat and enemy.. Islam.

And I said it before: There are no winners in the battle for god, because all religions are by nature and intrinsically "conservative", intolerant, triumphalist and alas and alack fascist if left unchecked and without a countervailing power.

watcher_83,

What kind of nonsense is this?

"There are only 5 million Jews in Isreal, around 25 Percent of the entire world community."

You are saying that Jews make up 25% of the world's community? You are completely out of touch with reality and, evidently, have no regard for checking the veracity of your statements before making them. You are living in a fantasy world. Do you work for Reuters or the New York Times, by any chance?

You appear to be ignorant of your own Koran. You come on here and openly spread falsehoods about it.

1.

"Please, I challenge to you to bring me one verse clearly saying slaughter the Jews. It doesnt exist."

Then you say 2.

"Actually, none of those ideas of dhimmitude you can take out the Koran.

Actually, we can kill those two birds with one stone. Here is what your Koran says:

9:29: “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by his messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay tribute readily, being brought low...”

All translations and tafsirs (e.g., Ibn Kathir, al-Jalalayn, et al) that I've seen agree on the meaning of this verse. More importantly, this is the meaning actually enshrined in Islamic law and implemented in practice for the past approximately 1385 years. Hamas is eager to re-implement this traditional practice.

9:29 says to fight (q-t-l, meaning fight to kill) Jews and Christians who reject Islam and who refuse to accept the sujugation which includes humiliation and payment of jizya. This burden is only lifted if they convert to Islam.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 388:
Narrated Juwairiya bin Qudama At-Tamimi:
We said to 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, …Chief of the believers! Advise us." He said, "I advise you to fulfill Allah's Convention (made with the Dhimmis) as it is the convention of your Prophet and the source of the livelihood of your dependents (i.e. the taxes from the Dhimmis.) " (parentheses in M. Muhsin Khan’s translation)

watcher says

"Most verses dealing with war end by telling Muslims to halt their aggression when the conflict has ended."

"Most verses"? Do you mean to suggest that you know of a set of verses where, in that set of verses, there are some that DO NOT tell Muslims to halt their aggression (your term!) when the conflict has ended? I don't need you to answer that.

8:7 says exterminate ["cut them at their root"] the disbelievers. 8:35 says "taste of the doom because ye disbelieve"--referring to actual killing, not just hell-fire punishment.

Unrelenting slaughter is not only approved in the Koran, Allah himself supposedly does it or guides it directly in many cases:

17:16. "And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, and afterward they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation.
17:17. How many generations have We destroyed since Noah! And Allah sufficeth as Knower and Beholder of the sins of His slaves."

21:14. "They cried: "Woe to us! Certainly! We have been Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, etc.)."
21:15. And that cry of theirs ceased not, till We made them as a field that is reaped, extinct (dead)."

Then 'Allah' puts the jihad legislation-by-sword into the hands of the believers (2:251, 57:25, 8:17, 47:4, 9:14).

8:39 and 2:193 say fight them (non-Muslims) and do not cease until all religion is for Allah.

http://muttaqun.com/dictionary3.html

"Fitnah: Polytheism and to disbelieve after one has believed in Allah, or a trial or a calamity, affliction or to set up rivals in worship with Allah, etc."

2:193. "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

8:39. "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."

Note: all insertions are added by Hilali and Khan, based on a contextualized (chiefly, sahih hadith* and Sira, as well as taking other verses into account) understanding of the verses. The reason why they added "in the whole world" (following Ibn Kathir, Tabari, et al) is because Mohammad made the men pledge to wage war against all humankind, and Islam is a mission to the world, all humankind (7:157-158, 34:28). Islam must conquer all religions (9:32-33, 48:28, 61:9), no matter how much the disbelievers averse to it.

*Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 33 (see 30-35): It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. (also see Sahih Bukhari, Sunan Abu Dawud, and others)

What I meant to say Television is that APPARENTLY you allow divisive, hypocritical morons like Bill Oreilly and Rushed Limpballs do your thinking for you.

And so long as you, and they keep up that line of thinking, then indeed the ultimate victory will go to Islam.

You can't fight and win a war on two fronts, not when you are outnumbered and lack the resources of the others.. and you are fighting a war on two fronts, an internal and external culture war. The internal culture war is totally self inflicted and unnecessary, and it weakens you and us in the face of the real threat and enemy.. Islam.

And I said it before: There are no winners in the battle for god, because all religions are by nature intrinsically "conservative", intolerant, triumphalist and alas and alack fascist if left unchecked and without a countervailing power.

And you can rant all day long that leftism is modern gnosticism (what demigogue hero of yours spouted that), does not make it true, but it does make you look like a fool and an arse.

I wonder if you and Frank et al are not suicidal nihilists? Your rants and beliefs are devoid of reality, but full of self defeating and alienating hatred. Keep it up doofus and the west will lose the battle for survival. I have to struggle mightily with my own reactionary impulses, to keep myself grounded as an anti Jihad "Islamophobic", because of attitudes, beliefs and rants like yours and Franks. You are a fool man, a self righteous idiot, and in that regard undifferentiated from the Muslim.

Nariz, for someone who claims to be neither right nor left, you certainly go haywire when someone says anything unflattering about the left. Name-calling and claiming superiority...

Islam is a whole lot like mistletoe
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7437.html
It puts down roots into a tree (culture) sucking the very life out of the host.
Mistletoe, if it had a voice like islam, would call out; "look at what a beautiful tree I am!"

Well, seeing that a majority of Americans support foreign invasions and as Ward Churchill said the 3000 people in the Twin Towers were all "little Eichmanns", working to sustain an Empire, why should I know believe,using your logic or lack of it, that the attacks on 11 September were a terror strike, not simply strategic targeting? You dont like that? Tough luck. Unless you a rabid racist(which you are), then the same has to be fair for you. If we take a little bit further then attempted attackst at Heathrow must not be considered terror, but legitimate resistance. Good luck trying to sort out. Posted by: watcher_83

Man are you desperate. Cluephone, pick it up. Islam is not a race, and neither is Arab.

As regards my comment about there being no innocent civilians.. I actually quoted an Islamic authority who said the same.. in the eyes of Islam all kaffirs are enemy, and there are no innocent civilians..and in the world of guerilla warfare, as Mao said: The Guerilla swims in the sea of the people...ergo there are no innocent civilians in an enemy population because the people support the guerilla (terrorist, insurgent).

Contemporary Muslim theologians such as Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, "spiritual" leader of the Muslim Brotherhood and popular Al-Jazeera television personality, hailed as a moderate voice by some in the West, sanction bombings against all Israeli citizens using Jihad criteria completely in line with those by classical jurists. He argues that in modern war there are no civilians, as all sectors of society aid the efforts if the country is involved in confrontation with Muslims in some way. Which also means that all non-Muslim citizens become legitimate targets of Islamic attacks. Qaradawi says: "It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected…in modern war, all of society, with all its classes and ethnic groups, is mobilized to participate in the war, to aid its continuation, and to provide it with the material and human fuel required for it to assure the victory of the state fighting its enemies."

Needless to say, this line of thinking could easily be used by Islamic groups to justify terror attacks such as the ones on the World Trade Center in New York City. In their eyes, they didn't kill innocent civilians since there are no innocent civilians in the US

My statement is a recognition of reality, not a statement of approval.. If I were God or a God, I would snap my fingers and believers of all stripes would disappear from the Universe so mankind could get on with more honest ways of plunder and killing, over water, food and land.

"Israel is very humane, and self defeating, it warns the population before it bombs a target, thus giving Hizbollah an opportunity to get out of the way.. it is all insane."
I find the logic in that hard to follow as well. Seems to me that the bottom line is that it only adds to the overall destruction and media frenzy.

"and that is the Khe Sanh solution, carpet bomb the towns, napalm them and then be prepared to take the flack from the international community."
This approach may be available to the superpower. Israel needs friends in an overall anti-semitic world (i.e. christian, socialist or muslim (though the muslims are sort off irrelevant to this discussion)). It would be especially severe if they lost the support of the American public. I think the Israelis are much too proud to fight the media war. Maybe memories of Goebbels are still too vivid. Though they should, because if they don't, they won't be able to control the tempo and fight the clock as well as a well equiped enemy, just as they seem to be doing right now.

Nariz, for someone who claims to be neither right nor left, you certainly go haywire when someone says anything unflattering about the left. Name-calling and claiming superiority... Posted by: Carolyn2

It looks that way because the vast majority of posters here (including yourself) are right wingers that get off on dissing and accusing the left.

Trust me I get as much crap from the left, when they go off dissing and trashing the right, and I have been banned from posting on left wing forums, as well as right wing forums including once being banned from posting here.. only temporarily though as Mr Spencer misunderstood where I was coming from, given that I'm a major fan and promoter of him and his books.

There are mentalities and agenda's in both left and right that I object to and find abhorrable and self defeating, but since the ONLY voiced criticism on this forum is of the left, of course all you will see is my objections to the suicidal morons who blame all of their problems on the left.

What respect should the world hold for Islamic warriors that use women and children as cover to hide. NONE !!! There's no respect in claiming vicotry under those conditions. Why not challenge Iran to get out from behind their mother's skirt and fight like a real man!!!

You were banned -- I find that hard to believe!

"masses of suffering people only in terms of statistics of collateral damage, who has empathy for reality and can not see eye to eye with individuality"
That is a fine piece of rhetoric. I'm sure they should have gone and personally have asked which of those individuals at the scene were Hezbollah, perhaps casual supporters and which were just innocent bystanders. Though it doesn't work quite that way. Once that war starts, everybody just wants to survive and go home and Israel was draged into this war by katyushas (those which predate the killing of eight and kidnaping of two soldiers). Though, to the muslim mind, killing Israelis is not considered a crime, hence they were unjustly attacked. They just wanted to kidnap the soldiers to get their imprisoned people back. Consequences, accountability and causality is something I find too few examples of in muslim rhetoric in general.

Television,

I think the goal for all of us should be to convince people who are not yet convinced, to get them onboard, and work toward solutions. Otherwise, to those who already are on board, we should be providing them with as much valuable material as we can that they may use to help educate others.

There are many viable ways of solving the persuasion problem. But your continued use of the simplistic and ill-defined "Leftism" (or "Leftist PC multiculturalism") is itself a problem, chiefly in that whenever you use this term you are alienating people who deem themselves to be on the left side of the political spectrum. My first suggestion is that you take a look at the empirical research on persuasion, find out what works, what doesn't work, and what is actually counterproductive. I also suggest that you adopt a different or at least more complex and variegated strategy, which takes into account the complexity of the terrain and the diversity of political opinions within the so-called right-left political spectrum. You can achieve some progress in persuasion with many (though not all) people on the so-called left by addressing the major human rights problems due to the imposition of Islamic laws and traditions. Focus on facts, concrete examples, and statistics--i.e., the stuff that the vast majority of people can understand and relate to--and less on huge ill-defined meta-trends.

Anyways, that's my 'two cents' opinion. Do with it what you will.

and Bagdad Bob said "There are no American troops in Bagdad", (as the tanks were rolling in the background up to his door)

watcher_83,

While answering your "quote a verse" question, I missed directly answering some other questions you posed. My apologies--I was not trying to ignore them. Here goes:

"If what you say is true then why didnt Hezbollah execture the Christian collaberators after the Israeli withdrawal in 2000? Instead they were handed to the Lebanese goverment. Thats is exactly the opposite of what you would have predicted. Admitt it."

I don't know if your statement about the Christians is true, but supposing it is, my answer would be that Hizballah did whatever they thought was tactically advantageous at the time. Killing all the Christians would have been hard to hide from the world press, for instance, and would have hindered their strategic goal of infiltrating and dominating the Lebanese government. Also, Christians are not Jews (who are explicitly condemned, by name, in the Koran), so the natural animus against the Christians is somewhat tempered, as long as the Christians stop fighting and bow to Islamic authority.

"Well, that is also an aspect of Fascim. Conjuring up a two dimensional enemy, without thoughts or feeling, or individuality, one giant moving mass.
Dont think this something special. It has been done many time before. It has been proven wrong and disastrous every time. Why dont you call indiscriminate killing of Palestinians and Lebanese a crime? Is that because you cant see eye with them, as humans, such like I said?"

"Conjuring up a two-dimensional enemy," as you describe, is common in any conflict, and has no special connection to fascism or any other ideology. De-humanizing the enemy is, however, central to Islamic teaching. Muslims (Hizballah) are taught that they are the best of people and always innocent, and the "other," the infidels, are always guilty and are associated with apes, pigs, and even excrement. That kind of despicable thinking towards others makes the "two-dimensional" mind trap you lament seem like a pretty tame personal failing for anyone in general (not that I subscribe to it).

In any case, I myself certainly don't want to see any suffering of innocents. But Hizballah, following the "holy" Koran, is determined that there will be perpetual war on Israel, and guarantees that there will be much more suffering of undifferentiated innocents. Again, the Koran says the Muslims should fight until the resistance to Islam stops. By their logic, the mere existance of the "Zionist" state constitutes "resistance" to Islamic dominance. So, Hizballah operatives conceive nefarious plots, and they stockpile weapons, and they ambush, and they rocket, and they slaughter innocents, and they fight endlessly.

As for "indiscriminate killing," the lobbing of unguided katyusha rockets and Khaybar missiles into civilian areas in the hopes of hitting any passers-by is "indiscrimnate killing." Blowing up groups of Israeli citizens, using strap-on bombs, on buses and in restaurants is "indiscriminate killing." Islam is all about "indiscriminate killing." And then, after every such incident, we all of us have to suffer the news reports showing the pathetically immoral Palestian and Lebanese Muslims dancing in the streets, cheering, and passing out sweets.

The Israelis, in contrast, have taken every precaution to minimize loss of innocent life, even when they know that doing so will likely cause their soldiers to take otherwise unnecessary risks and resulting casualties. (The Americans do the same in Iraq). And then, having inflicted those casualties, the Hizballah thugs rejoice at their great "victory" in killing so many of those discplined and ever-restrained Jewish soldiers.

As for the use of the word "Zionism" instead of "Jews" by Nazrallah, that is just a euphemism to cover his real intentions. To "destroy Zionism" means to replace the government of Israel with an Islamic one, and then to place the Jews there in dhimmi status. Then, by the standard Islamic formula, the lives of the Jews and Christians are made intolerable through persecution , hateful rules, and oppressive taxation, so that over time they either flee to other countries, convert to Islam, or acquiesce to a permanent slave status. "Destroying Zionism" means killing Jews and Judaism, either the fast way or the slow way.

watcher_83 wrote:

...what do Messianic born again Christians believe, maybe they believe that after the second coming of Christ and the victory of Israel all Jews and non-christians will have to be converted? Speak about that please.
.................

I have a number of relatives who consider themselves born-again Christians. There are a lot of things we disagree on (no offense to anyone reading this post here who so identifies). While some of them just feel that accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior has enhanced their relationship with God, there are those who honestly believe that anyone who hasn't done this is not "saved".

There are a number of religions who think that only those who adhere to their exact beliefs are saved. The real question is what follows.

It is one thing to think that God will sort out the saved and damned in some sort of last judgement, it is another for people to try to force these views on others at swordpoint.

There are a lot of Christians who want to share the "good news" with others through missionary work. This is a far cry from attempting to forcibly convert others, or to treat those who do not convert as non-citizens subject to extortion, strictures and threats to their lives. Also, while many Christians may lament if someone turns his back on the faith, they are unlikely to track them down and murder them as "apostates".

This attempt at moral equivilancy does not hold up.

I think the Israelis are much too proud to fight the media war. Maybe memories of Goebbels are still too vivid. Though they should, because if they don't, they won't be able to control the tempo and fight the clock as well as a well equiped enemy, just as they seem to be doing right now. Posted by: Marvin

Yes, I have noticed that, but pride goes before the fall, and the Muslims are waging a pretty effective media propaganda war, whining and whining about persecution and forging photo's and reporting..the war on the ground and in the air (armed combat) is only one element of war, the most important element is the propaganda war (and propaganda is actually a neutral word, which has been given negative connotations).

Israel needs to get engaged and involved, and stand up for itself to the world.. enough, enough of the high road, Israel takes the high road, Islam takes the low road and gets to "Scotland" afore Israel.

As regards my statement about carpet bombing, tis a fact, sad but true, the only way to dig out dug in guerilla fighters is through massive air assault, meaning carpet bombing... there is no other way, we learned that in Viet Nam.

And what must be done, must be done.. I hold it to the President and Congress of the U.S of A. to explain and justify the necessary survival acts of Israel to the world and Americans, otherwise Israel can NOT surive the onslaught.

Hezbulluh has to declare victory now before the Israelis kill them all. God be with Israel!

… stop the flow of all weapons coming into the country, uh, coming into that country…
--- Academic prestige queen & dumbass Condi Rice addressing UN “Security” Council

This country is the States; that country is Lebanon. This very public Freudian slip makes one wonder what intelligence briefs she’s been reading this week.

610 * 623 * 732* 1066* 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001

On a lexical note, in this speech Condi droned on about extremists. Oh yeah? What's moderate about this:

Warfare in Allah’s Cause is ordained for you Moslems, though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.
--- God's commandment to kill in Koran 2:216

Unicorns are a logical impossibility. Moslems, all Moslems, support the Final Jihad that rich kid playboy and Harvard Man Osama bin Laden called a decade ago.

Hugh, I strongly dissent from your meaning between your words. Why speed up the arms shipments? We need them, Israel doesn't. Am I missing something. Olmert agreed to a deal where Shava Farms is in the resolution(albeit in a vague way), the soldiers return is not demanded, nor is the disarming of Hezbullah, nor is a strong multinational force(just more UN stooges).

Why does Olmert need more of our weapons? He needs something that I won't mentioned in polite company . . . shall we say a member of the male anatomy.

Israel let America down. Not the other way around. She is now a charity child, legs spread open for more rockets. And are the Palestinians so obtuse they won't completely forgo suicide attacks and simply fire rockets. Bigger, robust rockets that will knife through Israel. A barrage from Lebanon. A barrage from Hamastan. How do you spell the future??

Why does Olmert need more sophisticated American weaponry. Olmert rejected the general's initial plan of stealth attacks on Nasrallah, a pincer attack from Israel met by a paratroopers from the Litani.

And today. Ceasefire! Then no ceasefire! Full speed ahead . . . after all surprise is strangled out of it. Then Ceasefire again!

What message is being sent? To Nasrallah? To Jordan? to Hamas? If the issue of American weaponry was at stake(even in a remote way)I might agree with your point, but to what end. If Israel will not or cannot defend her population. Why should we? Finally, what messsage is being sent to the Shia scum in Iraq? Will Israel's defeat embolden them?

Bush was more supportive than any other American President--in this--or any other issue. Even his detractors(like me) know it. Bush gave the green light for weeks while Olmert dickered.

Send more arms? The state department doesn't like Israel. What's new. What's the point? Israel made herself(and us) look weak, vacilating and kind of dumb, or maybe I'm missing something. Look at the congressional support of Israel in recent weeks. What was the vote in favor of Israel's mission in our congress? No. The US did nothing. Israel shot itself in the foot. I reject the premise that the state department or Bush is attacking Israel behind the scene in a way that counts. On balance, we supported her fight against Jihad to the hilt as did the Israeli and American citizens. And it was all for naught.

A new dynamic is in the making. The destruction of Israel missle by missle will continue. Perhaps not right away, but the dye is cast. Maybe a coup will occur in Israel. Maybe Nasrallah will drag Olmert, kicking and screaming, to do what needs to be done. But Nasrallah is a cunning tacticion. Olmert is a boob.

For all my doubts about Bush, for all my unease, Bush is a man of his word. Olmert is only words, a talking coward.

I posted this as proud zionist. I love Israel, but she faltered.

Israel is waiting for the leadership of hezbollah to surface and start their victory speeches and dances about the defeat of Israel and then the missels will fall.

As to being guarded by UN forces, any UN forces that enter Israel will either be arrested or shot.

Lets hope that both sides continue to fight. It is the best thing for the world.

JERUSALEM Aug 11, 2006 (AP)— Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has accepted an emerging Mideast cease-fire deal and informed the United States of his decision, Israeli officials said Friday.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2303062

Final Score:

Hizbolla: 1
Israel: 0

So let's say the terrorists actually stop firing rockets into Israel. There are Hezbollah and Iranian national guard soldiers showing up as casualties at the hand of the Israelis, so the terrorists may not all honour a ceasefire. Would anyone be surprised?

The ceasefire should last, oh, about twenty minutes, tops. When the rocket attacks start again, Israel will be ready to resume their assault. Hopefully Israel will catch a few of the Hezbollah leaders out in the open, gloating about their great, pre-ordained victory.

This is just an intermission. Tempers are still volatile, and I don't think either side is "happy" with the results just yet. Stay tuned.

First Ariel flinched. Now Olmert has flinched. The polls show that Israeli Jew support for the ground invasion of Lebanon has plummeted from over 90% to just above 60%. It seems that resolve among Israeli Jews has evaporated. Musta been all that weepy agitprop produced by Wolf Blitzer.

If the Jews have gone pussy, where does an Infidel turn for hope?

610 * 623 * 732* 1066* 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001

To me, Israel’s capitulation to Hizbullah is proof positive that Marxism can yield only defeat in the face of Jihad. It's what the MBAs call synergy. But in this equation, a very very negative synergy.

witness,

How about this:

Hizballah: 1
Humanity: -1100 (approx.)

Here is an excellent interview with Carolyn Glick on the present situation - about 40 minutes - excellent analysis.

http://politicscentral.com/2006/08/03/will_lebanon_be_the_next_iran.php

Leave it to the "Shame/honor" feature of Arab culture to have Arab Christians and muslims alike crowing about their great "victory" over Israel's modern army and air force. Hezbolla's so called victory was the result of the difficulty any military would have dealing with a force of human hyenas who hide behind civilians while they attack Israel's civilians. This causes Israel to moderate her use of air power and forces her land troops to move into pre-planned ambush sites.
Iran will continue their aggression against Israel from sites too close to react with anti-missile weapons or aircraft until the time they are able to tip a rocket with a WMD. Iran is playing with a fire that can turn their country into a glass parking lot. Rest assured they will still have those smirks on their faces when that happens.