Eurabia Alert from AKI, with thanks to S.:
Rome, 14 August (AKI) - Italian police investigating the suspected 'honour killing' of a 20-year-old Pakistani woman are looking for her father and two other male relatives - a brother-in-law and an uncle - in connection with the murder. The body of the woman, Hina Saleem, was found buried in the garden of her parents' home in Sarezzo, near the northern Italian city of Brescia on Saturday. Her throat had been slit.The woman's disappearance was reported by her Italian boyfriend, a 33-year carpenter, identified as Giuseppe in news reports.
The couple began their relationship a year ago against the wishes of Saleem's father Muhammad, against whom Hina had pressed violent abuse charges in the past, only to withdraw them later, and who according to reports had promised her in marriage to a cousin in Pakistan. In March Hina went to live with Giuseppe and began working at a local pizzeria.
While she preferred to wear Western-style clothes most of the time - she was wearing jeans when her body was found - she would cover her hair as a "sign of respect" when visiting the family home, neighbours said.
Investigators believe that Hina's mother Bushra - who the neighbours often tried to defend her daughter from her father's rage - may have left for Pakistan a few week ago taking her younger children with her.
In his wife's absence, police suspect the 56-year-old Muhammad, together with the other male relatives decided to murder Hina after she refused one last request for her to leave Italy and to accept the arranged marriage in Pakistan.
On Saturday police found Muhammad's car abandoned on the side of a road near Sarezzo, but have thus far failed to locate him or the other two men.
Arezzo, Sarezzo, Shmarezzo. As long as he kills his daughter. For what? For walking out with an Infidel.
How can they connect, what can they possibly bring, what loyalty can they possibly offer, what are they doing, to Italy?
Please do not use the English word 'honor/honour' to describe the perverse motivation for this despicable aspect of muslim 'culture'. It is a complete perversion of the meaning of the word. If there is an English transliteration of the arabic, fine, but this is so divorced from the meaning of the word honor that it offends the sensibilities.
The boys are allowed to have sex with all the infidel girls (they call us whores) they want, provided there are no children and no marriages.
Posted by: americaningermany at August 16, 2006 01:50 PM
Sorry if this sounds like nit-picking, but muslim males, in addition to being given the freedom to engage in as much sex as they desire with infidel girls, are also actually encouraged to marry infidel girls and create a litter of children... provided that they make sure that their poor unsuspecting wives and children are fully converted to Islam!
This is the practice of a cult founded by psychopath, and whose many perversions are revered as model behavior.
"The German judges always take that into consideration and give them light sentence (Wasn't his fault, it's just his islamic culture)."
Muslims actively recruit in prison and prison officials give these Muslims every possible accommodation. These Islamic murderers know that after they get out, they will be welcomed by the Muslim community as heroes. So perhaps we should start recruiting the most violent hate-filled non-Muslim prisoners to do justice to these Muslim killers. In the US it's called "shanking" i.e. killing an inmate with an improvised weapon. If we cut down on the chances that they'll ever get out alive, that might be a small deterent to their violence.
Another tactic is for all of us to make a vow that if we're ever on a jury and the accused killed a Muslim, we will NEVER vote to convict. And if the accused is a Muslim, we will always vote to convict no matter what the circumstances. This may not be justice but it will send a very effective message that Muslim men are not welcome in the West and are safer staying in their own countries.
If I am on a jury, I will vow never to convict an infidel for a crime committed against a muslim, nor will I ever not convict a muslim of a crime he may or may not commit against an infidel.
email this to all your friends. Have them add their first name to the list and then have instruction for the 1,000 person listed to email it to CAIR
"honour" killing is cultural, not islamic.
Are you crazy? No one should write or say the above. Whatever you do, such a statement could be used to challenge you in the voir dire ("Have you ever written that..." or "Have you ever signed a petition saying that...") or even later on, to overturn a verdict. Good God.
Earlier this year the decomposed body of a teenage Muslim girl was found in a river in north-west England. She was identified as the missing daughter of a family from the region. Press photographs showed a bright, beautiful girl in normal European dress and as assimilated and English as one could wish. The police have interviewed her family about this several times but no one has been charged.
gorniak; "honour" killing predates islam by centuries and in many cultures. I don't believe there is anything in islamic law that calls for the death of a woman under these circumstances. I think ignorance and culture are the cuplrits here and not islam per se.
gorniak; Read what I wrote gorniak, you have either misunderstood or chosen to ignore it. "honour" killing does continue in predominantly muslim societies but not all muslim societies have the propensity for "honour" killings. if you google, you will even find some cases of honour killings amoung arab christians. I believe it is a cultural/ignorance practice as I have not seen any evidence that states honour killing is desirable in islamic law.
gorniak; I don't disagree with much of what you say but honour killing all points to a tribal/cultural practice. it wasn't invented by islam and you still haven't shown me where in islamic law that it is desrable to kill woman for "honour" crimes. muslim societies are certainly complicit in the survival of the practice, that is not in dispute, but I don't believe that islamic law actually states that honour killings are desirable.
No need for insults gorniak; You still haven't produced any islamic texts to support your assertion that islam condones an honour killing. I don't believe you will find any.
Still, you have not presented anything that specifically states "honour" killing is the prescribed punishment. Look, I know it goes on, you don't need to keep presenting that fact. The fact that it has not been eradicated in some muslim societies is cultural, not religious. islam didn't invent the practice of honour killings but it survives because of culture and tribal traditions.
Your last posting is pretty much on the mark and the way I view it. the "clergy" and power brokers do little or nothing to curb the practice but again, honour killing does not appear to be mandated in islamic law. the fact that muslim societies choose to keep it their dirty little secret is cultural/tribal. I know the jordanian parliament rejected a motion to punish honour killings more severely but never the less, it is still against the law.
I'm sorry you feel that way gorniak but you have yet to provide any evidence that islamic law is the culprit here.
I resent that, I am no troll !!
"The fact that it has not been eradicated in some muslim societies is cultural, not religious." -- Too Bad.
Islam is a fusion of culture and religion.
Next!
Hugh,
In challenging FIVEOFNINE and my committment, if on a jury, to always vote to aquit any infidel who kills a Muslim and vice-versa, you wrote: "No one should write or say the above. Whatever you do, such a statement could be used to challenge you in the voir dire ("Have you ever written that..." or "Have you ever signed a petition saying that...") or even later on, to overturn a verdict."
Actually in England and Wales (where this "honour" killing occurred, the process of voir dire consists of the single question: "Can you give a fair hearing to both the Crown and the defence?" Any prospective juror who affirmatively answers the question is impanelled on the jury.
In the United States, what I advocated (perhaps tongue in cheek, perhaps not?) is called Jury Nullification. Not only can this principle be used in resisting Muslims but also against oppressive or unjust laws. For example, on 2nd Amendment grounds, I would never vote to convict anybody being prosecuted by the ATF for a supposed weapons violation.
As for a verdict being overturned, there is, perhaps, a slight danger of this in the US since here the voir dire process is much more in depth. It raises the issue of the definition of "impartial jury". However, it is highly unlikely that either the prosecution or defense will ask us "Have you ever written that..." or "Have you ever signed a petition saying that..." but more likely ask if we have any biases against Muslims.
The most effective response is to say something like "I work with a Muslim and he seems a decent fellow" which is true enough to assuage the attorney but not so much as to set oneself up for perjury. This being the case, it would be extremely difficult to later prove enough bias to get the verdict overturned.
Sorry the complete above post should have been,
Earlier this year the decomposed body of a teenage Muslim girl was found in a river in north-west England. She was identified as the missing daughter of a family from the region. Press photographs showed a bright, beautiful girl in normal European dress and as assimilated and English as one could wish.
It is thought she refused to go to Pakistan to be married.
The police have interviewed her family about this several times but no one has been charged.
Yes, many cultures have oppressed and murdered members of that culture for many reasons. FGM is not specific to islam, but it thrives under islam. Stoning was a widespread ME practice, as the bible tells us. But today it thrives under islam. There is an 'honour killing' in the Decameron, representative of Mediterranean cultures at that time, but today it thrives under islam.
I think the quotes Gorniak has given show why it thrives under islam. They might not use the term 'honour killing' per se, but they sure as hell promote the concept! How much more textual support do you need for proof?
If you're trying to suggest that it's just a cultural practice they will grow out of because their religion doesn't actually insist they do it, I'd like to believe it. But I don't.
It's pretty easy to shout "troll" and walk away. I have already pointed out that honour killings can cross religious boundaries, christian arabs have been known to practice it also. The practice of honour killings is not so prevelant in other muslim cultures, Malaysia for example. FGM is prevelant in african muslim countries, not so much else where.
Now, bring me the evidence that honour killings are part of islamic doctrine, in other words, show where in the koran or hadith where it states the punishment is honour killing.
Yup, gorniak comes up empty. He throws out a red herring about stoning but still cannot produce one verse out of the koran or hadith that supports honour killing as a punishment.
I seem to remember something about making death threats being a cause for being permanently barred from the BB......
I posted this on another thread recently.
Not long ago the BBC news stated there were about 3000 cases of female genital mutilation a year in Britain. These were mainly in the Somali Muslim community and the health authorities had been instructed to deal with them "sympathetically". That is clean up the mess and shut up.
Where are Gorniak's informative posts that show which koranic verses and hadiths are used to justify murder for 'zina', aka by some as 'honour killings'??
Why are TooBad's false statements claiming there is no textual support for these murders allowed to stand unchallenged?
"Where are Gorniak's informative posts that show which koranic verses and hadiths are used to justify murder for 'zina', aka by some as 'honour killings'??"
I guess they have been deleted. It's pointless to discuss this way... but let me know if you are interested in having the links.
The moderator or whoever is in charge of deleting the posts has got a funny problem of double standards.
FedUp; Gorniak's "informative" posts seem to be all red herrings. My point of contention is that I have not seen any islamic texts that call for the act of "honour" killing as a punishment under these circumstances.
that's surely because you have comprehensions problems (and huge ones)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206
Hadith
Book 017, Number 4206:
'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me.
......
And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.
.......
Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.
---------------------------------
This is the third time the piece from the hadith has been posted. Call some other adult to read it for you if you have reading and comprehension problems.
1) taken from islamic scriptures = CHECK
2) fault is adultery or any other improper sex act (IE not being virgin anymore) = CHECK
3) victim is a woman = CHECK
4) punishment is stoning (that leads to death) = CHECK
5) the victim ends up dead = CHECK
now please, show me you are still able to bang your head on the wall over and over saying the same stupid consideration like a broken record.
Oh, I guess you cannot understand that the pakistani girl murdered in italy DID had a boyfriend and her father ADMITTED she was not being a good muslim.
Now what other proof do you need? that the earth is not flat?
FedUp, you throw out another red herring (swiftly followed by insult) regarding stoning to death for "zina" which is (sort of) the prescribed punishment for that act in sharia law. It does not demonstrate that the punishment for Hina Saleem's indescrection was appropriate, i.e. it does not say "Relatives are slit the whore's throat." The relatives have clearly gone outside the bounds of sharia law unless you can show me otherwise. Do not keep posting the same stuff as it just doesn't fit.
The girl was PROMISED to a cousin in PAKISTAN, but she was LIVING with an italian, christian guy. When media tells "she wanted to live like a westerner" it includes ALL THOSE THINGS, not just wearing JEANS.
The father has been heard saying to the police "she wasn't a good muslim" which meant ALL THE ABOVE THINGS, not just a matter of trousers or T-shirts.
She was about to be sent home in pakistan to marry a cousin, therefore she was promised to a muslim man. Fornication with anybody else is forbidden. (see sharia law in IRAN).
FedUp, please don't misunderstand me, I'm in no way trying to defend islam, muslims or this girl's relatives actions. What you said in your last post are all pretty much correct. However, I still have not seen anything from islamic sources that call for this girl to have her throat slit by her barbarian relatives. This is why I am sticking to my point that the practice of "honour" killings is a cultural/tribal practice rather than out of religious conviction. As far as am aware, there are no scriptures hadiths or whatever that stipulate that the woman's relatives arbitrarily decide to slit her throat. I am well aware that some muslim societies covertly (and overtly) condone the practice and the practice does not appear to be discouraged by the clergy but I honestly have not seen anything in islamic doctrine to say that "honour" killing is the prescribed punishment in a case such as Hina Saleem's. I was under the impression that islam used sharia law to decide these things and that in islam you cannot just take the law into your own hands. If the girl had gone before an islamic court, sure, they would have sentenced her to a stoning but that is after "due process".