Bush: "If it’s about Christianity versus Islam, we’ll lose"

from above:

"Muslims who reject the jihad ideology of conquest and subjugation"

Those who do so may lead shortened lives in Muslim countries. Observe the numerous bound,gagged and executed bodies found in Iraq and other Muslim countries. I suspect many of these victims objected to carrying on the Jihad.

Though I have been commenting and learning on Jihadwatch for the past 3 year now since I first heard Robert on the radio with (the sage from south LA) Larry Elder. After that It seemed for an almost indeterminable time that almost everybody was in the dhimmi mode and simply couldn't seem to grasp the threat that is Islam to the rest of the world.

I am beginning to see a dramatic C change in peoples concerns, and knowledge over this past year,. I think it begin to really kick into gear after the cartoon caper response by Muslims all over the world. Even several talk show personalities are beginning to call a spade, a spade now days. I am even hearing words like taquiya,umma,dar-al-harb being used by talk show hosts on a daily basis.

These latest attacks on the pope have again sounded the wake up call in the western world.

I'm reminded that there are nearly 2.1 Billion Christians throughout the world as compared to 1.2 billion Muslims in the world followed by the third largest religion Hinduism at 850 million,and Buddhism at 350 million and yet we only hear the constant raging drum beat from Muslims throughout the world who constantly assault, and insult all other religions without impunity every day.

At some point tolerance, and patience has to give way to anger and it will eventually overflow in the Christian world.

One can't help but be fascinated by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez who has been embracing Islamic radicals leaders the past year on how long his majority Catholic country will put up with him after the attacks by Muslims on the Pope.

Sooner or later,somewhere backlashes have got to breakout among Christians and Roman Catholics against those that have courted these radical Islamic leaders.

At least Dubya got the idea into his head that what is happening in the world may, just may, be

Christianity vs izlam. That is a start.

It holds the hope that he doesn't naively believe the 'religion of peace' BS he keeps sprouting every few days.

Lousy as the GOP maybe on National security, the Dems could well return another Jimah carter to office and that scares me no end. We and the rest of the world can ill-afford another Dhimmi carter in the oval office. Not now. Not ever.

SEAN HANNITY CAN NO LONGER BE TRUSTED...TURN HIM OFF AND TELL OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.

I do hope that President Bush is getting the message, weither he likes it or not that this is a war between Christianity vs. Islam because of what we had seen with the unjust protests and threats against what I now called, Benedict the brave. I do hope it does send a needed message to President Bush that when threats are put on the head of B16, as a Catholic Christian it is also extended to me because he is the head of my church.

The Christians will lose in a fight against muslims.

Why?

Because Jesus said dont fight back, to turn the other cheek.

Whereas Muhammed said fight and kill them where you find them.

It will be like a girl bashing a male and the male dies, because he is not cowardly enough to fight back.

Remember to all Christians "our weapons are not carnal"

"we wrestle not against flesh and blood"

and we must love them more and more, with the more persecution we must love them all the more. Just like Jesus.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Frankly, I'm starting to think that it doesn't matter whether spoiled frat-rat GWB "gets it" or whether he doesn't. He has no innate leadership ability whatsoever. He is merely a product of our times, where an ignorant or apathetic electorate is faced with what they think is solely a choice between two uninspiring dolts, Bush and Kerry. One gets a glimpse of real leadership in Benedict XVI, and political leadership born of intelligence, knowledge, and insight may yet emerge from others in Asia, India, Europe or America, but don't look for it in Dubya.

ye I just dont get this defeatism stuff - and from Bush - I mean what are we going to do just role over and let these peasants from a 7th century desert tribe destroy the greatest , most advanced civilisation the world has ever known ? I DONT THINK SO.
Sometimes you have to feel the danger of losing something before you start to appreciate it!

What happened, StorageManager? What did Hannity say or not say?

Well If he is going to define it as right verse wrong , perhaps he might want to define Islam as wrong .and not a noble tolerent relgion of peace hijacked by truebeleivers

Know Your Enemy,

By clinging to the tired "small minority" meme, Hannity MUST therefore be a shill for Islam. Or something.

Only a specific purity of thought is acceptable anymore.

If you can't lead, leave!

With respect to the President; We will lose if we fail to confront or even name the enemy.
We will win if we shed this idealistic nonsense that the West’s good intentions can turn back the clock on 1400 years of cultural backwardness and internal conflict.

Read about your predecessors’ experience and thoughts regarding this enemy. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Don't be afraid to admit to flawed analysis and strategy in the early stages. Lead us.

I have a problem.
I don't understand why this:

"...a coalition of all the actual and potential victims of jihad violence and oppression -- Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims who reject the jihad ideology of conquest and subjugation, atheists, whatever -- to join together to defend the civilization of the West and universal human rights."

is so difficult to understand for the Free World's "leaders" (who express only "leaderSHEEP" until know).

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT ?

The question is serious .

I don't want to come to know, someday, that some saudi funded think-tank had advised them in that direction.

Actually in fairness to President Bush, he told the conservative talk show hosts that the war on terror must be framed in IN TERMS OF VALUES AND NOT ONLY RELIGION.

I agree with you completely, Robert. But even though we know that all muslims are not terrorist but it seems like all terrorists are muslims -- so weather we like it or not, we are fighting a war against the Islamic Ideology and thus in a way Islam.

Maybe if we shut down the oil wells in Saudi Arabia FIRST, sieze the Arab bank accounts in the U.S., then have target practice on ANY gatherings or protests of muslims ANYWHERE in the world (even in cemeteries) and begin deporting all muslims from our country, it would be a start to winning the war. We don't have to lay down and die and let the muslims take over. It would really help if we give a giant push back at 'em when we are pushed a little. Forced birth control, whether they know it or not. Stop hiring them, stop using their services, ban the koran, ban burka's and hijabs , ban mosques and madrassas and they'll get the hint that we mean business.

W_D_J_D,

As a simple correction, Christians are not only called to forgive and turn the other check, but also to stand up, to fight for the truth. Remember the present war is driven by the spiritual war between Heaven and Hell and not only do the spirtual weapons need to be put on, but the physical.

Mackie wrote: "Sooner or later,somewhere backlashes have got to breakout among Christians and Roman Catholics against those that have courted these radical Islamic leaders."

Indeed! Begins for me next time I vote =)

As for the Hannity question brought up in another post, Sean repeatedly uses the term islamo-fascist like he is on this side. However, whilst taking calls from people who ask Islam to account for itself, Hannity always turns on these callers and apologises for Islam.

Sean in a black and white guy, he takes a side on an issues just to be on the same side as the conservative in charge at the time. And if those conservatives are saying 'Religion of peace' Sean also parrots 'Religion of preace'.

W_D_J_D,
Is that your new fangled liberal turned Christian interpretation of the Bible? You don’t want to fight back fine, but do everyone a favor and go over there to love them more and more. Many of us have our own views of religion that predate modern PC religion. Are those who stand up and make a difference right or are those who do nothing and then blame their inaction on Jesus right? In the End we will see who is right. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. They were crucifying an innocent man, an act preordained by God. That is the message. Don’t bother to argue with me, I have my own faith and no one is going to change it.

Folks, regarding the msm, most if not all of them are High School drop outs. Do we really care what they think?

W_D_J_D,

Jesus never told us to tolerate Satan and evil. This is who we are confronting.

Bush: "If it’s about Christianity versus Islam, we’ll lose"

With the weaponry we possess? Let me or some other regular person run this thing a while and we'll take care of the islamic world, George. Since you don't have the heart or guts to do what must be done.

Yes, it is ALL of humanity vs. islam.

And its not all of humanity picking the fight, it is islam encroaching on the rest of the world.

That is why they cannot win. Well that, and the fact that even if the whole world were muslim, it would still be muslims at each others throats just like it is with Shia vs. Sunni. They are too blinded by pride to see this so they blame it on the US and Isreal.

Christians are obligated to fight EVIL with every weapon at their disposal. They can love their enemies as human beings at the same time that they refuse to tolerate their enemies' spread of evil throughout the world. Jesus never said to roll over and let Satan gain control of this world.

"allah" is Satan, pure and simple, and muhammad is his demonic messenger.

Another thing...if the front page of every newspaper in the free world had the truth on it in the morning, you would see support from the people.
Extra, Extra! Islam has intentions of ruling the entire world. You have to convert or die. There is no Golden Rule. They do not believe in the 10 Commandments. Women must stay in the home, no career women anymore. If you do leave the house, you must be accompanied by a male family member and cover your entire (nasty) body with a shapeless bag. "There is no fun in islam-" Ayatola Khomeini. Also you women, your husband has the right to beat you as much as he likes, and to divorce you on a whim. You have virtually no rights, not even your children will be yours. "You are a field to tilleth", that means no headaches, ever.
The punishments for crimes are going to be severe. A 16 year old girl was hanged in Iran for having a "sharp tongue". A 14 year old boy was lashed to death for eating during Ramadan.
As our troll Norseman says "Don't worry be happy".

Christians backed up by science will win.

Winston Churchill said so much in his 1899 book called "The River War"

"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science – the science against which it had vainly struggled – the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

You need us and perhaps we need you. The great thing about what the Pope said in his speech was the word "reason". Remeber he was talking to a group of scientist when he made those remarks.

I accept a god exist although the organized religious version gets a little over done. God is a reasonable fellow and men who strive to be reasonable are thus rewared. Why do we live in comfort and the muslims live in back water stone age nations? Why are their values so behind the times? Its reason! They are not reasonable and make no attempt to think about the world in a critical light.

The point is if it is a battle between Christians and Muslims based on faith alone may or may not turn into defeat for the west. If it is a battle between Christians armed with nice technological weapons created by those pesky scientist then Islam is doomed.

rewared = rewarded

Mystery, something is trailing Atlantis. The landing has been delayed. They have no idea what it is.

Jesus taught that his kingdom was not of this world. (It is a spiritual kingdom) the apostles and writers of the new testament also gave revelation concerning the end times as revealed in the Bible. (There will be a one world government in place before the return of Christ)

I believe that we are being manipulated on all fronts to make us ready to give up our freedoms. The one world government will also include the Islamic world. If you read the Book of Revelations it mentions that Christians will be beheaded for their testimony.

If you believe that Bush has the Christian worlds best interest at heart, wake up and smell the Super Nafta, unsecured borders, worker guest program and the fact that he continues to promote Islam as a ROP.

So whether we like it or not (from a christian point of view) it is coming so try to hang onto your heads. Ultimately they will win because Satan will be given power to overcome the saints.

I made these comments because all of the fighting between the world religions is man made.
Since man cannot ultimately rule himself then he is destined to fail.

We need to correctly label Islam for what it is, evil and confront it. I believe that the war of ideas will be bloody.

If push comes to shove in the battle against barbarism, those Christians who do not feel that they have the legitimate right to fight back may need to get out of the way, and let those of us unburdened by any WWJD qualms defend ourselves. As an aside, Mr. Bush has been a pathetic leader for most of his presidency. Borders still open, blunders into the Iraqui quagmire, friends with our Saudi overlords, etc. He strikes me as the type of "leader" who could not get an infantry platoon to follow him into a brothel.

I think Hannity is educable, if simplistic, but at the moment, he isn't where he needs to be. Michael Medved is closer - he talks at length about the disturbing aspects of Islam, but fails to draw conclusions about how it affects the current adventure in Iraq (when he talks about the people of Iraq, he fails to factor in Islam in their mindset.) I don't hear much of Laura Ingram, Neil Boortz or Mike Gallagher, but I have a suspicion that they are closer to the truth. A few appearances by Robert on these programs should fix it. The one who most gets it is Lee Rodgers; too bad he's local.

On the Left wing side of this, maybe I'm delusional, but can't influential members of the Left take up cudgels against Islam? Forget for a moment Islam's hostile attitudes towards Infidel religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, et al. Just look at the way the Jihadists look at some key Leftist constituencies - women's rights, gays, animal rights, athiests, education, the environment - some of their pet issues - and not only will they find nothing in common, but they will see an ideology hostile to their very existance. So even if they don't like 'us' (Islam critics on the Right), can't they at least rally their forces on the Left?

Even if the MSM is bought and paid for, can't we expect some major rants against Islam from the ranks of the DailyKos, MoveOn.org, HuffingtonPost.com, et al? There has been common cause made before on the issue of trade with China, where both the far Left and far Right worked separately towards a common goal; can't the same be done here?

Christian in a war:

This has been an interesting discussion.

I know of one good friend of mine that believe that for any Christian to fight ina war is to betray who he has been called to be in Christ. My friend would say that to kill another person, being an Evangelical, would be to cut the person's life short, even for a just reason, would deprive him or her of the chance to hear about Jesus and be saved.

If I myself recall correctly being a soldier, along with being an actor, was something you had to renounce in order to be a Christian in the earlist days of Christianity. Also there was no instrumental music in early worship services due to instrumental music being used in Roman pagan services.

Later on, we can look at Ignatius of Loyla who was a Spanish Soldier and later founded the Jesuits.

If you have ever seen the movie, "The Mission," it too gives an interesting contrast between fighting or not-fighting.

For myself I would frame it this way:

If I am the ONLY one who is danger.. I would willing surrender my life for the sake of the Gospel. BUT, if my friends or neighbors are in danger I would defend them with my life.

That is my own personal take.

Any thoughts?

xxx

No; we will not lose and we will certainly not surrender.

However, President Bush may not be the man to lead us to victory. We need a Commander-in-Chief who can distinguish between friend and foe - and who has the courage to act upon the difference.

It does not appear that President Bush is that man.

Christians fighting in a war. Muslims fighting in a war. The contrast is great isn't it?

On the Christian side, you have Christians who believe that they shouldn't fight in a war, no killing whatsoever. Then on the other side, there are also Christians who believe that they ought to fight the evil that is rearing its ugly head. What's the ratio? No idea.

And this "holy war" stuff has been going on for centuries. Jerusalem was conquered by Caliph Umar in 637 A.D., a mere 5 years after Muhammad's death. Yet, for the next 450 years, the Church was still struggling with this issue. It was in 1008 when Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim bin Amir Allah that sacked the pilgrim hospice in Jerusalem and destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In 1095, Byzantine Emperor Alexius I, under attack by the Seljuk Turks, called on the West for help, and thus began the First Crusade. Today, Christians are still divided on the "holy war" issue.

Contrast that with Islam. Jihad is embodied in the Qur'an. Muhammad practiced it. His successor Caliphs practiced it. Muslims today followed it. Jihad is seen as the sixth pillar of Islam.

Will this be the final showdown? Maybe. But certainly, when al-Mahdi comes, this world will be in great turmoil and jihad will be everywhere.

Al-Mahdi & Antichrist.

Infidel Pride - You raise an interesting question regarding the lack of response to militant Islam from the left. My read is that many in the left are so used to blaming our society, our government, etc. for all the world's ills that they simply can not bring themselves to join the battle (even the intellectual battle) against the Jihadis. They WANT the West to be wrong, and even though they would be among the first to be called to account given the triumph of Islam, they simply can not help themselves. Many on the left have also been conditioned to believe that any minority, no matter how f)ck-witted, must be in the right. It is simply a matter of faith.

including Bush’s observation to the right-wing radio jocks that the War on Terror has to be about right versus wrong, “because if it’s about Christianity versus Islam, we’ll lose.”

If the War on Terror becomes a Christianity vs. Islam battle, we will lose the War on Terror. Bush is not saying that Christians would lose a direct war against Islam, only that we would not win the War on Terror.

Because whether you like it or not, there are also muslims out there who suffer because of terror. Making the War on Terror a religious war instead of a war on right or wrong would indeed cause the West to lose ordinary muslims who just want to live their daily lives in peace. Shifting from right vs. wrong to a religious war would makes us as bad and intolerant as muslim extremists. And that is what they want us to do, so they can tell the ordinary muslims "Look, you see what they are doing to you?". It is what they are aiming for, let's not give them the satisfaction to see their goal being achieved.

mackie said

Actually in fairness to President Bush, he told the conservative talk show hosts that the war on terror must be framed in IN TERMS OF VALUES AND NOT ONLY RELIGION.

But by only talking about "good" and "evil", the discussion is dancing around the edges, and missing the point entirely. We can all agree (well, non-Muslims anyway) that murder is "evil", and condemn this beheading or that bombing, but to continue to put so much effort in avoiding questioning what is the reason for those murders will allow the jihad to continue.

One can imagine how if our only response is to investigate each individual attack and try to apprehend and punish the knife-wielding or bomb-vest-wearing perpetrators, that we're always going to be behind the ball, and always reacting to the latest attack instead of acting to prevent the next attack. And that is exactly where we've been for the past 5 years. The (temporary?) removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan was the first tentative step in the right direction, followed by...mistake after mistake after mistake. Some here will claim that this is just more Bush bashing, but how many do not have that feeling that something is not quite right?

What would "acting to prevent the next attack" look like? I'm talking about noticing a trend about who is committing the attacks, and acting on that trend. Controlling the borders, having U.S. companies and U.S. citizens running security at ports and airports, surveilling and monitoring the places of gathering of those who are threatening violence against us, building a program for energy independence. Nothing earth shattering, just the same old boring commonsense suggestions, that never seem to get any attention, never seem to go anywhere. Saudi students come here to learn how to fly (though not land) airplanes, and our response is to encourage more Saudi students to come here. Mystifying.

Leaving religion out of the discussion may be PC and "nice" and "polite", but it also makes the discussion unproductive.

I have noticed a strange set of commitments growing in myself as an gay atheist jew. W_D_J_D's liberal Christian values scare me far more than a conservative or even a fundamentalist Christian like Pat Robertson. I know the conservative and fundamentalist Christians are going to stand up in this war with Islam and do what's right. Meanwhile, liberal churches like the Quakers a certain Catholic group in my town will be doing everything that they possbibly can think of to help the muslims win. They are traitors to everything--even the values they claim to stand for. Sadly, these "liberals Christain" values are also common those supposed devotees of reason, Unitarians and Ethical Culture societies and also among Reformed Jews.

I really want to know how reasonable is this "liberal" Christian interpretation of the New Testament? Should I worry about it leading to the undoing of the West?

Posted by: storagemanager at September 19, 2006 10:17 AM

Hannity is a shill for the Bush adminstration. He defends every criticism against Bush et al with hackneyed, recently created cliches which are so predictable, one can easily "sing along with Sean." He lost all credibility long ago, although I believe he is quite sincere. He reminds me of a naive child who idolizes and defends an incorrigible parent.

Hannity displays his naivete once again with his unwavering assertions that islam is a "great religion hijacked by extremists." I'm really tired of that resounding fallacy, especially from people who should know better. If Hannity is incapable of imputing the correlation between islam and evil, his cognizance is impaired.

Pediomelum -

I am glad that you usedd the term "Liberal Christians". I am a Christian and have no qualms with warfare as long as it is just in terms of defending a nation. I understand that to win a war requires killing. There is a huge difference between killing and murder.

I do no not believe that the New Testament teaches anywhere that you should just lay down and let you, your family or nation be destroyed. God even had Israel have soldiers and they fought many wars.

Jesus himself spoke to a Roman Centurion (soldier) and remarked on how great a faith he had. Jesus didn't say, well you can't be a soldier and serve God as well.

This studip liberalized teaching of some Christian denominations leads many astray. Christians believe one day there will be no need to learn warfare anymore. Until that day comes, we fight as needed.

If a Muslim nation exploded a nuke on our country. I would be the first to sign up and would kill the enemy.

Im4America,

Thanks for the Roman Centurion story! I looked it up It's Matthew 8:5-13. I have so many moonbat "liberal" Christian friends that it will be useful to me.

I have something to say about where Christians should stand.

Jesus said, “Don’t give your pearls to swine.” This, our leaders, have obviously done, and must be regained.

Secondly, Jesus said a house cannot stand divided amongst itself. Good will not survive divided amongst itself, which the Muslims have been doing through their propaganda campaigns, and their influence in the political arena. Therefore, we must actively fight their influence, by getting them expelled from our lands, and repelling their propaganda and deception.

Thirdly, as we must love our enemies, we must love the Muslims enough to direct them away from the destructive Islam, the CLEARLY evil Mohammad monarchy. And in my view, it is for the love of all we must fight such great evil.

Fourthly, as to the question of killing others, Jesus provided us with a clear separation of state and religion. He gave us clear obligations to be good citizens, fulfilling the duty of our jobs. If it means to protect our country with our life, so be it.

Lastly, I come to the example of Lebanon. For three decades after WWII, Lebanon prospered under Christian domination, bringing it in line with developed nations, while all the other ME countries remained in the dust of the Arabian deserts. In fact, the Christians of Lebanon were the jewel of the Muslim world since its beginning. The Christian government treated the Muslims (30-40% of the population) with much tolerance and respect: giving them major roles in the government, freedom of worship, and provisions for their worship (e.g., mosques in schools, calls to prayers, and many other things.) However, the Muslims never saw the prosperity of the country as their prosperity, such that, whenever they had an excuse to rebel, they never hesitate to, even if it was rebelling for the sake of permitting terrorist organizations to roam free inside an ideal country.

The Christian government, to its credit, tried to accommodate the Muslims as best as it could to maintain the peace; noting, Lebanese Christians hold their faith more closely than most other Christians, having a higher sensitivity to immorality/unfairness. Most other people of lower moral esteem would have ejected Islam altogether at its hostility to the state, but they didn’t. Ultimately, slowly but surely the Lebanese Christians were massacred and confronted with the decision to either fight or be killed. When they chose to fight, they fought exceptionally, but fought half-heartedly, not using their unlimited allies and without any clear goals with dealing with a killer ideology. Ultimately, their might, and their power were worn down by the native Muslims and the countless Muslim invaders to the point that they are today. At one point during the war, the Druze sought to exterminate the Lebanese Christians, the descendants of the Phoenicians, the Jewel of the ME, and the propellers of Lebanon’s success, citing a 160 year old grudge as an excuse, and calling them nothing. Muslims everywhere proclaimed it is time for Christian Lebanon to be destroyed.

A lot of lessons can be learned from the last holy war in Lebanon, 1975-1990. Let's try not to repeat the mistakes made.

Storagemanager/.storagemanager/..this is pismopal/..pismopal/ over/

Storagemanager/..this is pismopal/. radio check/..over!

Storagemanager/ last heard transmitting traffic regarding Sean Hannity./ No further transmissions were copied/ pismopal/ out/

Robert appeared on Michael M-e-d-v(as-in-victory)-e-d's show today - one of the hosts who met his Bushness on Friday.

To fight ISLAM means to annihilate large numbers of them, indiscriminately. Something the 'Decider' -who is nonetheless a humanitarian naive'-ling- is unable and unwilling to do. But we must not allow him to declare defeat and surrender before the battle has even begun!

And Mushi wants you all muzzled:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060919/wl_sthasia_afp/unassemblypakistan_060919201407

including Bush’s observation to the right-wing radio jocks that the War on Terror has to be about right versus wrong, “because if it’s about Christianity versus Islam, we’ll lose.”
++++++++++++++++=

i voted for this man twice and damn glad he is not able to be elected again.

America needs an American Leader for America.

prez bush just has no idea......... He has lost all reasoning in regards to islam. Bush is not the leader that we need to defeat islam for bush has no clue and continures to damage America and Americans. His open borders policy since 9/11 will result in the deaths of 100s of thousands if not millions of Americans.

Christians, Jews, Athetists, Agtnostics,m Non-believers, Hindus all of the peaceful religins are at war with fanatic islam which is all of islam.

Christian America was key in the victories in WW1 and WW2.

prez bush be assured that American Christians, Athetists, Non-Belivers, Jews, Hindus and Agnostics will not go down to one world government or islam.

The Texican.
A prepared, armed and ready American and Christian. One of tens of tens of millions.
We will not go silently into the night.
Be assured, we will pray and fight to the death.
God, Family, America and Freedom, the only choice at any cost.

why do you think christians dont fight?

what religion are your american troops?british troops?australian etc
either christian or secular.
of course christians fight
anybody will fight to protect whats theirs.

"what religion are your american troops?british troops?australian etc
either christian or secular."

Millions of Western Christians are diluted and decaffeinated in various degrees: i.e., they have developed along with the epochal shift in consciousness otherwise known as "secularism".

No such shift has occurred in the Muslim world. Any Muslim who does participate in that uniquely Western adventure of secularism does so by being influenced by Western culture, not by any intra-Islamic influences.

Pediomelum asks:

> I really want to know how reasonable is this "liberal" Christian
> interpretation of the New Testament? Should I worry about it leading
> to the undoing of the West?

I think the "liberal" Christian interpretation of the New Testament
is perfectly reasonable. In an earlier era, God (through Noah) provided an Ark as a means of escape from the flood. There was no point building bigger levees. God will provide an "Ark" in the form of Jesus Christ returning for the Church (his "bride") before the judgments are unleashed.

Islam is simply a cab off the rank in Satan's attempt to frustrate God
and to destroy Israel. The Islamic nations will gather against Israel
for the battle of Gog and Magog (Yajuj wa Majuj in Islam), and God will destroy them - Israel will bury them at Hamongog to cleanse the
land. This battle may or may not involve Western nuclear weapons, but
they are not necessary in implementing God's solution.

Islam is, however, making its move for global domination; what succeeds it will be far more sinister - the Antichrist and his
alliance, the mark of the Beast for buying and selling, and a war
against the Saints in earnest. It culminates at Armageddon.

Islam is a fake. It's threat is real, but its followers are doomed.

My guess is that God is just about to set the hook in the jaw of Gog
and its allies (Ezekiel 38 & 39), and reel it in! There is certainly
plenty of berley, & they (Muslim nations) are on the bite!

"Tap, tap, tap, lifted back, and boom!" as we used to say when fishing
on the Outer Harbor wharf.

Maranatha!

Incidentally, in answer to Bush, it is ultimately about God versus Satan. God will win!

I read Xaragma's post and it makes me more glad to be an atheist than anything that a fundamentalist Christian has ever said. I think many people are missing just how faith-based and even irrational is what one hears from the "reasonable" "liberal" Christians & their Jewish and Secular imitators.

Anyway, there is one fact that I do know about the New Testement and that is that no one knows when the end times will come & so counting that you know it is now is simply theologically wrong. We cannot assume God wants us to be cowards. Also, the Bible talks about a battle and for a battle you need two sides, and so it would seem to me that we have to say that God wants us to fight back.

Pediomelum,
God make Man in his image. Jesus came as a bridge for all who believe. How does God expect us to behave? Is God a coward? No. To understand Human nature you must first understand Gods nature. What is in the mind is what is important, if hatred and evil exist there, it is wrong. Killing for pleasure or profit is not acceptable. “Love your enemies” not “Let your Enemies Live. I would not worry too much, it is not hard to destroy their arguments, they make very little sense. Case in point, God did not provide an Ark for Noah to make his escape. Noah built it and then systematically set about collecting two of every species of animal to save. However, to the liberal it is all about getting away safe. Posts like that are about 1 in 100.

yaqub,
Where have you been? Jihad is everywhere. Read Isaiah for info on the bill the muslims will have to pay.

worldleader,
People of many religions and many with no religion at all post here. We are anti-jihad. Anyone who is anti-jihad is with us.