The Archbishop of Sydney speaks truth to power again. "Pell links Islamists to violence," from the Sydney Morning Herald, with thanks to David:
...Cardinal George Pell says "the violent reactions in many parts of the Islamic world" to a speech by Pope Benedict justified one of the very fears expressed in that address. "They showed the link for many Islamists between religion and violence, their refusal to respond to criticism with rational arguments, but only with demonstrations, threats and actual violence," Cardinal Pell said in a statement yesterday.He described as "unfortunately typical and unhelpful" attacks on the Pope's comments by two local Muslims, Taj el-Din al Hilaly, the Mufti of Australia, and Ameer Ali, from the Government's Muslim advisory committee....
Cardinal Pell begins by saying it is a sign of hope that "no organised violence has flared here in Australia … No one compared the Pope to Hitler or Mussolini (as in Turkey) or called for his murder as Sheik Malin did in Somalia. No group like the League of Jihadists in Iraq promised 'that the soldiers of Muhammad will come sooner or later to shake your throne and the foundations of your state'."
He adds: "Our major priority must be to maintain peace and harmony within the Australian community, but no lasting achievements can be grounded in fantasies and evasions."
He then details his criticisms of Sheik Hilaly and Dr Ali.
"It is always someone else's fault and issues touching on the nature of Islam are ignored.
"Sheik al-Hilaly often responds to criticism by questioning the intelligence and competence of the questioner or critic. So too with the Pope, whose speech he claimed was not what was expected of a holy person and indeed 'the Church needs to re-examine its thoughts about someone who doesn't have the qualities or good grasp of Christian character or knowledge'."
Cardinal Pell said Dr Ali misunderstood the Pope's speech and "called on Pope Benedict to be more like Pope John Paul II than Pope Urban II, who called the First Crusade. In fact the Pope's long speech was more about the weaknesses of the Western world, its irreligion and disdain for religion and he explicitly rejected linking religion and violence. He won't be calling any crusade."
But Cardinal Pell added: "Today Westerners often link genuine religious expression with peace and tolerance. Today most Muslims identify genuine religion with submission (Islam) to the commands of the Koran. They are proud of the spectacular military expansion across continents especially in the decades after the prophet's death. This is seen as a sign of God's blessing. Friends of Islam in Australia have genuine questions, which need to be addressed, not regularly avoided. We are grateful for those moderate Muslims who have spoken publicly."
Sheik Hilaly said Muslims had a right to be angered by the Pope's "veiled and not-so-veiled insults". But he agreed Muslims must answer hard questions and that terrorists misquoted religious texts to justify murders.
Cardinal Ruini, the head of the Italian Bishops, has said flaming words as well over the events of these days. Too bad I cannot find any article in english on this.
Well Cardinal Pell we should all just get used to this type of behavior, as the Muslim population blossoms in the west soon we too will begin to look like the Middle East. The Pope is right due to liberal familial constructs linked to low birth rates we are seeing a decline of the civilized world, and the rise of barbarism ie: Islam. Enjoy the fall.
And Oriana was a Atheist...
When the grandkids start acting up, they're told to use their words. Not fists. Not tears. I'm talking three to six year olds. The muslims on the other hand, don't appear to have words, other than name calling and calls to violence. The clerics who question the Pope's intelligence have probably not learned much more than what is taught in our grade schools. They may know the koran by heart, but probably cannot do long division. Or be capable of sitting down and reading a book.
Anyhoo, it's just aggravating listening to these yahoo's whine and cry and act like children when the truth is told by honorable and well educated people.
Cardinal Pell is doing what the whole of us need to do: Stand and Deliver.
Wow. I'm impressed. He continues to strengthen his statements without resorting to nastiness.
Courageous AND classy. Outstanding.
Do you want to save civilization, really?
Outlaw Islam in the United States, Australia, NZ, Europe, Canada, Mexico, China, Russia. Combine our will and drive these maniacs into the Middle East and Indonesia. If they continue to threaten our very existence, bomb them until they stop making noise.
It's not hard to see the solution -- what's hard is getting people to be wise and brave enough to do what must be done.
The writing is on the wall: we either fight or die.
Yes! Open your mouths finally you stupid Europeans, your history, your way of life and your very freedoms are in danger!
What is really sad, Fedup, is, a two year old can be reasoned with. There is no reasoning with a muslim. At any age.
Oh please, I am a stupid European after all, try not to treat me so badly.
Why are we still letting these people into our part of the planet?
It's very easy to ignore people that don't understand the problem. I do it everyday.
This is your one moment when I acknowledge those of you that are clueless. Congratulations.
Islam is the Enemy, not your Western heritage or anything else outside the domain of the Muslims.
"Never argue with a fool."
Cardinal Pell said: "We are grateful for those moderate Muslims who have spoken publicly."
There we go again with the "moderate Moslems." Have these supposedly "moderate Moslems" agreed with the facts that Islam IS what Manuel II referred to in his debate with the Persian? Or have they only voiced regret that their fellow-Moslems made Islam appear violent again--re-emphasizing Manuel II's observation?
We are still looking for that "moderate Moslem" who not only regrets Moslem violence after some imagined slight (the facts are there, nothing was said that wasn't true) but who renounces all violence from here on till the sun no longer shines.
This brings me to a bone I have to pick with the symbolism of the "moderate Moslem" being as real as the unicorn.
If you've heard this before, stop reading now, but if not, you owe it to yourself read on:
WHETHER THE "MODERATE MOSLEM" IS AS MUCH OF A LEGEND AS THE UNICORN . . .
. . . is an ongoing debate. BUT what I am worried about is that I could be mistaken for that creature and done in by non-moderate Moslems. Look at the signature at the bottom of this comment, see, it's me name.
Therefore, I declare publicly "I am not THAT unicorn that everyone is desperately seeking.
They seek him here. they seek him there. Western defenders of (or apologists for) Islam seek him everywhere. Is he in paradise or never born, that demmned elusive unicorn [i.e. the moderate moslem])
[sorry Hugh, I know you've used something like this before, but I believe it's in the public domain]
So, people, your quest is not over. I am not THAT unicorn. I am unicornS, see? There are six (6) of me--white, galloping, a thunderous mini-herd with our narwhal horns sprinkled with fairy dust, glittering . . . but I get carried away, sorry--we six, we happy six . . . ah--are not really as gentle as legend make us out to be. Although . . .
. . . although I have renounced unprovoked violence--wait, that sounds too Koranic. It leaves slippery-slidery room for debating what is "unprovoked." Ok, so, I will not attack--no, that won't work either--what is meant by "attack?" I mean if you're in what I consider to be my space, sort of threatening--oh, let it go . . .
. . . but, I AM NOT THAT UNICORN ("I have never had sex with that woman"), not the unicorn of jihadwatch legend.
Seriously, though, folks, (I mean, all joking aside), please people, look elsewhere for the unicorn that is the moderate moslem.
I thank you in advance
What with Cardinal Pell's plain talk and the Australian ministe of multiculturism Mr. Robb's laying down the law to Australia's Moslems, I'm beginning to think Australia should no longer be considered "Down Under" but "Right on Top." I'm turning my globe over right now.
BunrattyBill: true, but according to Catholic dogma she goes to hell nonetheless. But Ruini praised her strongly, and said "May the Father receive her in embrace overabundant in Love".
Additionally, I translate: the attacks are "unqualifiable threats and threatening acts" and the assassination of the Italian Nun is "abominable".
Furthermore he "Deplores those interpretations which attribute to the Pope responsibilities which are not his own".
If muslims expect an apology, I suspect they will wait forever.
"an embrace"
I'm starting to see something here i like,religious leaders speaking out against this hatefull religion(if that's what you want to call it).....now it is time for our political leaders to join together in one voice and do the same....I,of course, am holding my breath....waiting.....
"The Pope is right due to liberal familiar constructs linked to low birth rates we are seeing a decline of the civilized world, and the rise of barbarism,i.e. islam. Enjoy the fall."
ethoman- There is truth to this and this is indeed the favorite "future tense" argument for mohaaaadeens and their apologists, but I've yet to hear an effective counter-argument to the "quality versus quantity" rebuttal which will likely save Western Civilization and thus the world. (In the long run)
Projection, Deception, Victimization, Infiltration
The European civilians know the dangers of islam, they just need to know they hold the power to take down the politicians who back the stupid left. Regular Joe European voted against Turkey's admission to the EU, THE FRENCH VOTERS and DUTCH know, they voted down what the European Elites wanted! THE European Joe needs to keep hammering away the fog, and join the ranks of the concervative Europeans and kick out the politicians who keep them down!
After seeing the posting today on JW/DW, I am not surprise that a number of the postings have been posted in frustration. It has been a very frustrating week because once again we are reminded that we are in a war of pure survival. Hang in there folks.
Pope Benedict the 17th has spoken.
This whole saga is just so sad. Muslims just prove it again and again, when instead of responding to criticism with debate, reason and reflection, Muslims just responded with violence. The "moderate Muslim", if he exists, is lost and drowned. The rest of the Muslim world have spoken loudly.
Unfortunately, what this means is that Christians in those countries will soon see a lot of persecution upon them (even though its not like everything was nice. Many thousands of Christians lost their lives in the hands of Muslims every year) Well, there are many jihadi incidents of Muslims killing or attempting to kill people it the US too. It may that the Pope will be assassinated in days to come, though I hope it will not come to that. Just as the death of Stephen opened the floodgates of persecution on the early church, this might be one of the incidents that trigger full scale of Christians by Muslims.
Not only am I filled with sadness, the weight of the future is also heavy on me. To think that the days of the Great Tribulation will be here sooner than I hope, to think that Islam's world savior, al-Mahdi, will be here sooner than later, to think that "Isa will break the cross, slay the swine and abolish the jizya" will be here soon ... sigh!
Al-Mahdi & Antichrist.
I'm not a Catholic, but I also remember that Catholic officials also expect that the Vatican will be destroyed in the End Times.
They seek him here. they seek him there. Western defenders of (or apologists for) Islam seek him everywhere. Is he in paradise or never born, that demmned elusive unicorn [i.e. the moderate moslem])
-unicorn62000
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere...
they certainly do Sir Percy
A special collection will be taken up next Sunday in most parishes around the world, to arm a newly revived Defense Cadre of the Holy See...
Average costs for various weapons systems:
M16A2 5.56mm Semiautomatic Rifle/M4/M4A1 5.56mm Carbine - $600
M2 .50 Caliber [12.7mm] Machine Gun "Ma Duce" - $14K
M136 AT4 light anti-tank weapon - $1.5K
M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank - $4.3M
Was there a unicorn in here? Somebody call Dan Pipes and tell him to get in here right now with a camera!
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
The argument's over. Here is the answer from the source:
Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.
--- God's commandment to violence in Koran 9:5
Anybody unclear on this?
Guys, I am putting in the link as well as the whole article by Cardinal Pell. I think it is worth looking at. He makes a lot of sense!
Gramfan
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20876,20434235-7583,00.html
George Pell: Talk while we can
The key to world peace is open dialogue between the West and Islam
September 19, 2006
THREE years ago I visited Lebanon for the second time, was well treated everywhere, received by President Emile Lahoud and paid courtesy visits to the leaders of the Sunnis and Shi'ites there, Mohammed Rashid Kabbani and Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah.
Kabbani, the Sunni leader, spoke to me for an hour, with the help of a translator. He set out to justify the practice in the Ottoman Empire whereby Christians had to walk on the other side of the road from Muslims (for their protection, he explained). Christians then were also publicly branded with signs on their clothing, but we didn't discuss this.
As I was leaving, Kabbani asked me to do what I could to protect the rights of the Muslim minority in Australia to live peacefully. I gave him an explicit assurance on that point and asked him to work to protect the Christian community in Lebanon. He said that wasn't really necessary as they weren't a minority but Arabs like himself.
All in all it was an interesting exchange, and I am more than happy to repeat publicly here my promise to work for continuing peace in the Australian community, to work to avoid the violent confrontations which are occurring overseas between Muslims and Christians, even in Indonesia.
I am committed to dialogue and if necessary debate with our Muslim friends within the democratic constraints of Australian life. I hope I am contributing to long-term peace by what I am saying.
Let me spell out some pre-suppositions and fixed points as I see them which set the boundaries for me in the delicate, and perhaps dangerous, journey confronting Western societies.
Wherever possible, dialogue and personal contacts are desirable among religious leaders, local communities, especially religious communities, and among young people.
Accurate information, accurate understandings and a respect for truth, even across differences, are the only long-term bases for fruitful exchanges.
Dialogue among friends does not preclude public questioning and public criticism, which should be constructive, not designed to make a situation worse by threatening peace or inciting hatred, for example.
These are the fixed points: Western democracies are at war with Islamic terrorists. Security agencies, including Australia's, are working regularly to thwart terrorist attacks. These Islamic terrorists want a clash of civilisations, they want the West to overreact, to make mistakes and so bring this Armageddon closer.
I do not believe that such a clash is inevitable, but with every massive and successful terrorist attack on the West we lurch closer to such a catastrophe.
American anger if there was a succession of September 11-style events in the US does not bear contemplating. A succession of such events in Australia would produce a similar public opinion, but we would not have the military capacity to do much about it.
Knowledge of fundamental Islamic sources, for example the Koran, is useful, perhaps indispensable, as is a basic knowledge of the history of Islamic expansion. A politically correct ignorance of all this history, except for a hostile verdict on the evil Crusades, provides no basis for an adequate understanding of the crisis in which we find ourselves.
Two misleading stereotypes of religion need to be abandoned. First, that all religions are basically the same: either all good or all bad.
In fact, the great religions differ mightily one from the other in doctrine and in the societies they produce. Religions can be sources of beauty and goodness and they can be, through corruption, sources of poison and destruction. I do not exempt Christianity from this.
Second, that religions are the cause of all wars or that religion never provokes war.
The worst evils of the 20th century were provoked by anti-religious men: Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Religion is more often used as a pretext for war or as a symbol of division, for example in the IRA's armed struggle in Ireland, but religion can directly contribute to and has been used to justify armed conflict and aggression.
Outside events could put great strain on the internal workings of Australian society. The time to advance peaceful dialogue across differences is now.
Australians are entitled to an answer from me on controversial Catholic or Christian teachings. And we Australians are entitled to specific answers from our friends on aspects of Islamic teaching, for example on the Suras of the Sword 9:5 and 9:36 in the Koran. It is disappointing when such requests or criticisms are met only by accusations of ignorance or abuse, while the specific points are studiously avoided.
Reciprocity is a fundamental notion in our dialogue with Islam: not in the sense of promising evil for evil, not an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but as a requirement that the civil rights we extend to all here are also to be extended to Christian minorities in all Islamic countries. This is presently not the case.
Let me move beyond my fixed points to conclude with a few remarks Pope Benedict made to his old university at Regensburg last week. Considerable attention has focused on his use of a quotation - which he described as "brusque" and did not endorse - from the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus in dialogue with an Islamic scholar fromIran.
It is possible that the dialogue took place while the Byzantine capital Constantinople was being besieged by the Turks. It eventually fell to them about 60 years later, in 1453. This quote was a small part of a dense but beautiful address on faith and reason.
The Pope quoted an old cynic who said that Regensburg University was unique because it had two faculties (a Protestant and a Catholic theology faculty) dedicated to the existence of something that did not exist. This was another quote he did not endorse.
A major thread in the address was that violence was incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. Pope Benedict had been an explicit public opponent of the second Iraq war and he also acknowledged that religions contain many different strains. One commentator claimed that the Pope's explicit appeal to reason was "a building block towards finding a way to argue with each other without using weapons".
Pope Benedict is right to stress the need for dialogue across differences, including the differences within Western civilisation. At mass, the Pope scoffed at "the idea of a mathematically ordered cosmos" without any hand of God.
He emphasised that "a reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering a dialogue of culture". This is particularly true in any dialogue with Islam, especially for our secularised Western societies.
George Pell is the Catholic archbishop of Sydney.
This has been an established pattern with muslims for 1400 years. It is traditional. Why should we expect them to change now?
Alarmed Pig Farmer- You should (try) to post that at the BBC Have Your Say. There are some muslims there who are still posting that islam doesn't say anything violent. They must have been absent from class the day they memorized #9.
Thank G-d for this Cardinal.
Re: "They are proud of the spectacular military expansion across continents especially in the decades after the prophet's death. This is seen as a sign of God's blessing."
But the rest of the educated world knows the Islamic expansion was a sign of God's curse.
http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/by_the_sword.html
From the report:
"Sheik Hilaly said Muslims had a right to be angered by the Pope's "veiled and not-so-veiled insults". But he agreed Muslims must answer hard questions and that terrorists misquoted religious texts to justify murders..."
They never do. They NEVER answer the hard questions and the 'misunderstanders' who come out enraged slashing, burning/ killing infidels are in fact encouraged by the likes of Sheik Hilali, who is a dyed in the wool jihadist himself...
Worthless drivel...
An excellent article by Piers Akerman
in the Sydney Daily Telegraph, supportive
of the Pope & scathing of much of Islam
is at:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/opinion/story/0,22049,20433153-5001031,00.html
Do not cave in to hate bigots
By Piers Akerman
September 19, 2006 12:00
[...]
Article concludes with:
To blindly cave in every time a Muslim, or anyone
else, gets excited about something someone has
said in the most restrained and decorous manner is
to indulge in the same sort of supine, spineless
attitude that prevailed at Munich in 1938.
And to ignore those who preach hatred, no matter
their religion, is to play Russian roulette with
civilisation.
Bravo, Mr Akerman!
May Oz be with you!
Pell identifies one of the key debating tactics of the defenders of Islam: ad hominem fallacy.
"Sheik al-Hilaly often responds to criticism by questioning the intelligence and competence of the questioner or critic."
This ad hominem policy comes not just from the usual reasons behind bad arguments, but comes straight from the Koran. The Koran says that disbelievers (non-Muslims):
--are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (some Christians and/or Jews were) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); are like frightened donkeys chased by a lion (74:50-51), are like cattle—nay, worse than cattle (7:179), are like dogs (7:176);
--they (idolators) are unclean (9:28); have uncleanness set upon them by Allah (10:100, 6:125); the hypocrites are unclean (9:95).
--“evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45, 2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); evil-livers (5:59); they have no good in them (8:23); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah (25:55); "enemy" (63:4);
---“perverted” (63:4); disgraced lives (22:9); hypocrites (4:61); are ill (84:20); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); in false pride and schism (38:2), in schism (2:137, 2:167);
--foolish (6:35); deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); have no sense (5:103, 10:100); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60);
--Allah sends devils against them to make them do evil (19:83); Allah cursed them for their unbelief (2:88-89),
--liars/they lie (2:10, 4:50, 6:28, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19),
--“losers” (5:53, 6:31, 7:178-179); among the lowest (58:20); the lowest of the low (95:4-6)