But whatever he said, if it offended Muslims, is no good in Pope Shenouda's book. Of course, the Coptic Pope is doubtless aware that if he says anything else at this juncture, his community will suffer.
"Egypt's top Christian leader denounces comments," from AP, with thanks to JE:
In the first reaction from a top Christian leader, the head of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church said in remarks published today that Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam were "against the teachings of Christ".Coptic Pope Shenouda III told the pro-government Al-Ahram newspaper that he didn't hear the pope's exact words, but that "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ".
"Christianity and Christ's teachings instruct us not to hurt others, either in their convictions or their ideas, or any of their symbols - religious symbols," Shenouda was quoted as saying.
Your Holiness, with respect, don't you think the Pharisees may have been hurt by Christ's words? His disciples thought so, and asked him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" (Matthew 15:12). But that doesn't seem to have stopped him.
As if one needed any proof of the humiliation of Christians living under Muslims...
They are too afraid to speak their mind.
Unlike the arrogance of Muslims living in Christan countries.
Although I disagree with the Pope on some issues, I have read the speech in it's entirety, and it is a thoughtful, scholarly discussion. It is frankly way over heads of the Muslim activists who are (brace yourself for it) taking his words out of context.
Contrary to Christian teachings? There are plenty of verses that emphasize the virtues of truth-telling, including when the truth is not pleasant for some to hear (see Robert's quote from Matthew) and that appears to be what the Pope has done here.
John, 3:18. "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
'the pope's position on Islam was unmistakably in line with Vatican teaching that the Church "esteems Muslims, who adore the only God."'
If one person says, "I know John, he is 6', 33, a lawyer, and has brown hair and blue eyes," and someone else says, "I know John, he is 5'4", 65, a retired fire-fighter, is naturally bald and has green-eyes," then the two are most-likely talking about two different people.
As an atheist, I've said it before, but the Christian god and Muslim god are two different gods. The religions ascribe to their gods entirely different charactaristics. They are mutually incompatible. You can't have a god of "love your neighbor as you love yourself" and "As you do to the least of your brothers, you do unto me" be the same god who says, "kill for me and get 72 virgins."
Muslims know this, they do not beleive that Jesus Christ was the son of god. Their god did not send his son to die for our sins. I was taught in Catholic school that my god did send his son to die for us on the cross. That belief lies at the very heart of Catholic doctrine, and yet the Vatican wants to paper it over because of fear of Islamic bed-wetting.
O.K. and Islamic bombers, too.
Christ was the "sign, raised in contradiction." How can his Vicar be anything less? The message of Christ cuts, it is the sword of truth. It is equally offensive, to the rich, and also to the poor, to the sinner and the complacent.
When John Paul II went to Sicily, he told the mafia members they were going to burn in hell. He said it flat out. Said it repeatedly in fact. What did the mafiosos have on the jihadists?
The Church believes in the Natural Law, wherein each man knows what is right, and what is wrong. Conscience can be surely warped, but can never be wholly effaced. Mohammad Atta for instance, was a man so steeped in hate, so marinated in malevolence, that at the check out counter, he literally oozed it all across the counter, taking aback the clerk who checked him in.
That's the condemnation, that Atta had reason to know his deeds were contrary to the will of God, but nonetheless, went through with them anyway.
Egypt's Catholic leadership is also cowering: http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-09/16/01.shtml
Truth hurts. End of story.
Dhimmi is as Dhimmi does!
Why doesn't the said Coptic Pope Shenouda III just go the whole hog (oink oink!) and just convert? He may as well he is acting in effect, as an ally of the nutters who are flinging themselves about like baboons, burning effigies etc.
The humiliation! The humiliation!
Just imagine you had at least one of your family got killed everyday for the past 1400 years because of his Christian faith...??
He must play the dhimmi or it will be one thousand Copt each day. Give him a break.
Think of this play as a sobering call to face the ever spreading Da'waa in the West, you might live to witness the day when you yourself have to play the dhimmi!!!
Sad he should be rallying around the pope.
"any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ".
yeah so I guess Christ would not want us to criticize mass murder as that offends muslims. So I guess no criticism of 9/11 is possible.(sarcasm)
This Christian leader forgets that Jesus says the truth will set you free. Get with the program brother!
That reminds me of the reaction of some Bulgarian writers under Communism: 'I haven't read Solzhenitsin's works but I deplore what he has written.'
I know someone who has conversed at length with Pope Shenouda. Based on what I have heard, I think compulsion and fear for his flock is undoubtably his reason for saying these things. If he were not afraid for his people, he would undoubtably openly agree to all the Pope of Rome has said.
Why the Vatican, living in freedom, having no compulsion, would try to qualify and dismiss what the Pope of Rome has said, I can't answer.
"Why the Vatican, living in freedom, having no compulsion, would try to qualify and dismiss what the Pope of Rome has said, I can't answer"
I can. Christians in muslim lands would have been butchered otherwise.
I can understand and sympathize with the Coptic Pope's cowardice; but that doesn't make it right.
The Muslim aim is the humiliation of the Church of Rome in the hope that all other Christians will follow.
Christianity is the Faith that will ultimately push back the borders of Islamic oppression just as Russia turned from the Secular Humanism of Marxism-Leninism.....................in time Islam will collapse through its own internal contradictions just as Communism did.
IceDragon:
"Why doesn't the said Coptic Pope Shenouda III just go the whole hog (oink oink!) and just convert? He may as well he is acting in effect, [...]"
He's trying to take a path that will better enable Coptic Christians to not only live, but to live with their minds relatively in tact. The latter consideration precludes converting to Islam.
I think this is a fight that will have to be fought primarily by people outside of overwhelming-majority Muslim countries. I can't see that the taking of strong, honest public opinions by non-Muslims in the likes of Egypt will do more than get many Christians murdered. It seems to be too late there for that sort of action to work, they are less than 10% of the population at this point. And it's not like Mubarak's (US-backed) government would come to their aid.
The Catholic pope is in a position to fight. So are we. The Egyptian pope is in a position to hold on to his life and attempt to preserve the lives of as many Egyptian Christians as possible, and not to do much else politically.
FWIW, I'd bet this care for human life probably does manage to produce living non-Muslims native speakers of Arabic. By virtue of their being living, these people are capable of immigration to Western nations, and capable of contributing substantially to war efforts and intel gathering. So, it is probably not like there's no larger benefit to civilization coming of actions that help them live.
This isn't to say dhimmitude isn't grossly dishonorable. It is. The lesson I take from that isn't that Shenouda should take action that would merely get more Egyptian Christians killed (unless you think it would have some positive effect?), but that we should never, ever end up in anything like Shenouda's position, no matter how intent the NYT and the rest of our "elites" are on allowing that to happen.
"in time Islam will collapse through its own internal contradictions just as Communism did."
Provided we stop subsidising it (oil money, international aid, free publicity courtesy of Reuters, etc.), and confront it seriously, yes.
My concern is that we refuse to fight as hard as we need to, and we fall to it, before it falls of its own accord. And then, when it falls, it takes the greater portion of humanity with it.
This is the possibility people like Peters and Taranto don't consider when shying away from honesty about Islam on account of its current 1 billion believers. Is it better to avoid addressing the central problem in the hope that it goes away, in the process risking that the eventual collapse takes out multiple billions?
I don't think that will happen, but it will take hard work for it not to. More of what Spencer and the Catholic Pope are doing, more of what Orianna did.
People think that this problem will simply fade away. It has not faded away. Not for the past 1350 years. The elites and the policy makers splutter "But, but, you are talking about 1 billion people". They are one billion now. What began as a band of thugs looting caravans now actually controls 57 countries. And their core principles remain the same. What I want to ask the policy makers is, what are you waiting for ? When they are 2 billion ? Or three ?
Right now, it seems to me that 1 billion is enough for our destruction.
Everyone in Islamic societies lives in humiliation, without elemental human freedoms, always in fear, including the Christians.