Fitzgerald: Piet Hein Donner should go

THE HAGUE, 13/09/06 – Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner considers the Netherlands should give Muslims more freedoms to behave according to their traditions”¦.”For me it is clear: if two-thirds of the Dutch population should want to introduce the Sharia tomorrow, then the possibility should exist,” according to Donner. “It would be a disgrace to say: ‘That is not allowed!’.” — from this news article

The very idea that mere head-counting should be allowed to determine whether the country, people, and civilization of Holland should live or slowly be put to death sickens. But Piet Hein Donner apparently believes that numbers are everything; that numbers, voting, is what “democracy” is all about. In this respect he has some analogues — such as President Bush — who keep prating about “democracy” and “freedom” in Iraq and “in the Middle East” without having any very good idea of what democracy, in the Western sense, is or should be.

But in the case of Holland and the rest of Western Europe, and indeed in the case of other threatened countries such as Israel, only those should be considered citizens who fully accept the political, legal, and moral institutions and foundations of the country. Naturalization, citizenship, is much more than being in a certain place for a certain time and declaring, easily, phonily, on this or that oath. It has to be more. For now we understand that there is one major belief-system whose adherents do not leave behind even when they leave countries suffused with that belief-system.
They fail to recognize that the unpleasant or even hideous state of the countries from which they come (Iraq or Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Iran, Somalia or Morocco or Algeria) can be explained as arising out of that same belief-system. Unlike refugees who fled the Nazis and the Communists and the countries they controlled, these people who in essence flee the Muslim world nonetheless do not denounce that world and its belief-system, but smuggle into their mental baggage, and remain firmly committed to, the very thing that they should have been eager and certainly willing to drop.

It is ludicrous to continue to ask the peoples of the Western world to admit into their midst people who hold such beliefs, and to welcome them and supply them with every benefit that the Infidel lands now offer, and even to encourage their participation in the “system” — that is, in politics — which participation will only, can only, conceivably be exploited by Muslims to further the case and cause of Islam.

But Islam teaches that the source of a government’s legitimacy lies only in its adherence to Islam, and to the final authority, the Holy Law of Islam or Shari’a. Some countries attempt to hew closely to it — Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Pakistan. Others less closely follow it — Egypt, for example, which claims absurdly to have a “secular” civil code. But a whole series of cases involving Copts shows that to be untrue.

How can those who claim that they believe firmly in a belief-system that is both religion and politics, that offers a Total Regulation of Life and a Complete Explanation of the Universe, and that in every way flatly contradicts not only the very ideas upon which democratic government has been developed, but also flatly contradicts the rights that protect individuals, accept democratic government and individual rights? For in Islam everything is collective, everything is about the Umma al-Islamiyya, and the individual does not matter. The scholar Reza Afshari had shown — and so have others — the contradictions between Islam and the rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That is why no Muslim state (save for Iran under the Shah) ever ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. All of them instead came up with a “Muslim” version that completely excludes all the most important rights of individuals, such as free exercise of religion, equal treatment of sects, full legal equality for women, freedom of speech, and so on. None of it is, and none of it can be, in Islam.

The comment by Piet Hein Donner of the Christian Democratic Party should be taken to heart. And citizenship should not be granted to, nor continue to be possessed by, anyone who cannot wholeheartedly and genuinely subscribe to the principles on which democratic government rests and to the individual rights which are now taken for granted all over the advanced democracies of the West.

And what if a Muslim swears he is a good Muslim but one understands, one realizes, one discovers from his comments, that he does not believe any of those things which contradict Islam? Do we nonetheless award him citizenship, so that he may vote, may agitate, may affect by sheer swelling of numbers the behavior of Infidels, already fairly fearful and willing to appease?

No. We do not.

We do not because our goal is or should be to preserve ourselves and our ways — and not on the basis of some abstract piety (“all people have a right to be believed”, “it wouldn’t be right not to believe a Muslim who swore he was ‘a good American'” and insistences at that level) or Idol of the Age, to flippantly surrender an entire civilizational legacy.

Piet Hein Donner should go. Everyone who thinks like him, who approves of him, who is not appalled by him, should go. Where should he go? Somewhere, anywhere — but not to a position where he is supposed to protect, and instruct, others.

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  1. says

    Vell, in ze same vay, eef most of ze people in Holland voted to imprison ze Jews und have zem executed, zat too should be ze law! Sieg – I mean, long live Holland!

    – Oberst Donner

  2. says

    Polls,polls, and more polls! Lately this is what are MSM political talking heads refer to on a daily basis when it comes political issues. Its as if the leaders of our countries should be driven by whatever the polls say, this is of course insane. Of course no politician is going to directly criticize those who respond to some of these polls and yet many really do not have a clue as to what the real issues are.

    Sadly in America, many people couldn’t find Iraq on an Atlas if you put it in front of them. Some of you may have seen a video where a man carried a world map around with him and he had deliberately changed the names of countries on it. The best one was that he had changed Australia to read Iraq and surprisingly many pointed to it and said oh there it is, some said they where surprised how big Iraq was,others said they didn’t realize it was an Island while all the time they where actually looking at Australia.

    A poll generated society is dangerous at best. If we had polls to determine our directions we wouldn’t need leaders anymore.

  3. says

    62 years ago this week, the Allies were fighting at Arnhem, hoping to win the war against Germany by Christmas. Unfortunately, they suffered a defeat there, and the war in Europe was prolonged by 5 months. These were months when my grandad saw one of his friends blown up by a booby-trap bomb in Holland in 1945, at just 19 years old.

    In one fell swoop, this fool has insulted the memories of those soldiers, sailors and airmen who fell in the liberation of Holland, not to mention the likes of Anne Frank and those other 105,000 Dutch Jews who were murdered in the death camps – a full 75% of Holland’s prewar Jewish population. And his way of showing gratiutude is to talk about Sharia law being implemented in Holland, when people should be showing the same resolve to keep Holland free as what our troops showed over 60 years ago to give them back their freedom.

  4. says

    Piet Hein, however, is another matter. That is the pseudonym of a Danish writer, author of the famous collections of “Gruk” and still more Gruk, even “Gruk fra alle Aarene” (“med tak for alle aarene, fra Piet Hein” reads the inscription on the copy in front of me), known to all readers of Martin Gardner’s old column in Scientific American, in the old days, the days of Courant’s “What is Mathematics?” and Newman on Godel’s Proof, the good old days remembered by those who have to be, by this point, somewhere between the ages of 58 and 98 because, you see, it would be impossible for anyone younger to have read any copies of Scientific American that appeared when he was still an infant, or before he was born.

    The Dutch Piet Hein was a naval hero of the Eighty Years War, with a monument to him in the Oude Kerk, and “Piet-Hein” not rare as a first and middle name in Holland, between such first names as Marie-Josee, or Marie-Therese, or Marie-Claire, or Jean-Jacques or Jean-Pierre, and those where the first and middle names appropriate the full name of a famous figure, as in George Washington Carver, or the Joseph Stalin Vijayanathans found in Kerala, a holdover from the old days, before Communist sympathies in the state were replaced by computer software companies in the-world-is-flat mode.

    Those two Piet Heins — the naval hero (died 1629) and the composer of funny verses and clever games (died 197?)–can be honored in Holland and in Denmark. This other one, this Piet-Hein Donner, apparently thinks that should Muslims, so rashly permitted to settle in Holland (there were 15,000 Muslims in Holland in 1970, one million today), were by overbreeding to become a majority, that would be it — and both kinds of legacies, the military legacy of Piet Hein the hero, specific to Holland, and the cultural legacy of Piet Hein the rhymer, left ot the entire West, would be lost.

    And that is why this other Piet-Hein Donner should be attacked, should never be forgiven, should be voted out, for such a remark, and for what such a remark must mean.

  5. says

    “For me it is clear: if two-thirds of the Dutch population should want to introduce the Sharia tomorrow, then the possibility should exist,”

    The muslim population of the Netherlands must be much higher than 10 or 15%..

    Looks like the Netherlands is the first nation to join Eurabia.. Denmark is well on it’s way, France then Germany.

    The Genesis of the problem is the depletion of the population as a consequence of two devastating world meet the demand for labor, the corporate elite, the manufacturers, used their financial and political muscle to not only open immigration from the Islamic world, but to actively recruit muslims (and the policy is still in force, recruiting and subsidizing “professionals” and university students).

    The same policy that is being followed by the REAL Republican Party, the corporate elite, the people of whom Bush said at a $10,000 a plate dinner.. “we have here, the haves and have mores, some folk call you the elite, I call you my base”..laughter.

    Someone explain to me, why a conservative president that is fighting a war on terrorism against Islamic fascists, would permit Hojat e Islam Khatami (I didn’t know that he had been promoted from Ayatollah) to visit the U.S., while declaring that Iran is the core of the Axis of Evil, and also solicit 15,000 Saudi Jihadis err students to enter the U.S., this just after 12 EGyptian (Students) disappeared into the population immediately after showing their passports and visa’s to Customs.

  6. says

    I am not a believer of the demographic nightmare scene like Nariz above me. The current 7% of the population is good enough to start a vicious civil war.

    Piet Hein Donner is a mainstream conservative politician. He is unhandy in his communication to the nasty outer-world beyond The Hague and I do not seriously consider he is a true supporter of Islamic Law. He wants to be a political philosopher _and_ the minister of Justice while he can’t be both at the same time. These stupid remarks give radicals the idea that the Dutch constitution is on the edge of collapsing en therefore these remarks energizes them.

    That is a shame. But who cares, he will be gone after the next elections.

  7. says

    Mr. Piet Donner is insane. What is failed when we think about democracy in a Musslim controled society is that democracy, in most of those countries is viewed as: Nine wolves and one sheep deciding what’s for dinner, in a western country we see democracy as: Nine wolves and one armed sheep making the choice. “mmm, grass doesn’t sound bad.” We arm the sheep with a Constitution and in the U.S. we arm them with arms,if they so like. Desiring sharia only because the majority chooses it, is suicide.

  8. says

    Back in the Stone Age when I took civics we discussed “tyranny of the majority” at length. At the time, people were sitting in at lunch counters, trying to get Negroes, as they were then known, the right vote in the south. Up in our safe Massachusetts classroom, we were trying to figure out why it was, exactly, that it was wrong to prevent people from voting, just because there were more of them on that side. And as it turns out, of course, there are plenty of places in the south where blacks are not, in fact, the minority race, but I digress. We did decide, more or less intuitively in the sixth grade, up in Massachusetts, that if our system, any civil system, were to have any force, people couldn’t club together to do certain things to their neighbors, even if there were a very great many of them in agreement. We thought, for instance, that lynching might be a bad thing.

    Donner apparently acquiesces, in theory, not merely to denying people rights and liberties, but to taking them away from people who already have them. It’s too bad my sixth grade civics teacher isn’t able to explain it to him in words of one syllable.

    Netflix has sent me “When Worlds Collide” for tonight. Seems appropriate.

  9. says

    What can one say in the face of such abject surrender of Dutch values? Pitiful? Disgraceful? Reprehensible? Shameful?

    Yes, all that and more.

  10. says

    It’s not enough to reassure us all but few people remember that after the Van Gogh murder and the subsequent riot of police and muslims the mosque in Utrecht has been burned.

    Not only that, there was an attempt to burn the mosque in Huizen and to an islamic center in Breden (don’t know if it’s the right english name) and the mosque in Rotterdam, several leaflets anti-muslim have been found.

    Doesn’t seem to me that the dutch are THAT de-sensitized.

  11. says

    Does this mean that if a majority of Dutch citizens voted to slowly saw this man’s head off, he would find the result acceptable?

    Anyone from the Netherlands want to put this to the test?

  12. says

    Hugh and others–The original Piet Hein would be rolling over in his grave over his namesake’s capitulation. The original was a typically stubborn 17th century Calvinist; and a bold warrior whose outnumbered fleet hijacked the Spanish treasure fleet off Cuba in 1628–disrupting the flow of Spanish gold used to fight the Netherlands during the Eighty Years’ War.

  13. says

    The Netherlands is a country without a backbone.
    It would not matter if the world would be full of peaceful people.
    But Muslims are quietly invading Europe and The Netherlands is not ready to meet the challenge.

    It will be paying for it dearly in the future.

  14. says


    I vaguely remember (I am of the old Martin- Gardner-Scientific American generation) but isn’t there some refrain chanted by Dutch children about Piet Hein?

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein . . .

    The rest escapes me. I guess I can look it up.

  15. says

    This the refrain about the naval Piet Hein the Dutch children recite:

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein, Piet Hein sin Nam is klein.
    |: Sin Daten, de sünd grot, 😐
    Un he hett wunnen de sülwern Flott.
    Un he het wunnen, ja wunnen
    De sülwern Flott.

    Roughly translated:

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein, Piet Hein his name is small
    But his deeds are tall

    Anyway not the type of Dutchman as this present-day dhimmi genuflecting to the invaders of his homeland.

    A better translation quizas:

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein, great are his deeds but short is his name.

  16. says

    “Wyatt Earp, Wyatt Earp, brave, courageous and strong/Long may he live, and long be his glory/
    And long may his story be told.”

    If it’s good enough for Wyatt Earp, perhaps it will do as a partial version of the Dutch children’s song about Piet Hein.

  17. says

    Thanks for the Wyatt Earp rerain, Hugh. I shall note it down for appropriate use.

    I think this is, in English, what should be recited about the naval victor Piet Hein (who defeated the silver fleet [I think]):

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein, short is his name, but long is his fame.

    I read it in some old tome about pirates, privateers and other seafaring adventurers.

  18. says

    Piet Hein Donner is one of those dessicated lawyer types and he was answering questions put to his as a lawyer would and what he has said is unanswerable from a legal point of view. He stated the facts but then the Pope has just done the same and is being castigated by every carpet kisser from here to Mecca. The truth hurts. If you don’t like it remember he was only telling it how it is, he wont be in parliament after the next elections in November.

    Here by the way is a Grook from the Danish Piet Hein
    please enjoy it I think it is applicable

    Defence Wanted

    In international consequences

    The players must reckon
    to reap what they’ve sown

    We have a defence
    against other defences

    but what is to defend us
    against our own?

  19. says

    In response, Donner said he was not in favor of Islamic law in the Netherlands, noting parts of Sharia conflicted with the Dutch constitution.

    But he said that if enough people wanted Sharia, then the constitution would have to change. Source Which I assume is a statement of fact, just like in the U.S.A of the Senate passes a constitutional amendment (even a new constitution, or one that makes Shari’a the law of the land), and then 2/3rds of the States Legislatures vote and ratify it, then it becomes the law of the land.

  20. says

    I can understand

    Piet Hein, Piet Hein, Piet Hein sin Nam is klein.
    |: Sin Daten, de sünd grot, 😐
    Un he hett wunnen de sülwern Flott.
    Un he het wunnen, ja wunnen
    De sülwern Flott.

    but it in no way represents current Dutch *at all*.

    Sounds more like mix between German and Dutch.

    This is the more current form:

    Heb je van de zilveren vloot wel gehoord,
    De zilveren vloot van Spanje?
    Die had er veel Spaanse matten aan boord,
    En appeltjes van Oranje.
    Piet Hein!, Piet Hein!,
    Piet Hein, zijn naam is klein,
    Zijn daden bennen groot,
    Zijn daden bennen groot:
    Hij heeft gewonnen de Zilveren Vloot,
    die heeft gewonnen, gewonnen de Zilveren Vloot.
    die heeft gewonnen de Zilvervloot.

    Did you hear about the silver fleet
    the silver fleet of Spain
    it had many Spanish mats (ingots?) on board
    and oranges
    Piet Hein, Piet Hein
    Piet Hein, his name is short
    his deeds be big
    his deeds be big
    hij has won the Silver Fleet
    hij has won, won the Silver Fleet
    hij has won the Silver fleet.

  21. says

    “For me it is clear: if two-thirds of the Dutch population should want to introduce the Sharia tomorrow, then the possibility should exist,” according to Donner. “It would be a disgrace to say: ‘That is not allowed!’.”

    I’ve never understood how so many people, including our well-meaning President, can so fundamentally misunderstand Democracy. Democracy without checks and balances, and especially safeguards of rights for minorities (especially that ultimate minority, the individual) is no more than mob rule.

    I am appalled by the spectacle of Bush and others warmly looking on as Iraqis and Afghanis vote in Islamic constitutions. He does mean well–it is just that he conflates the simplistic idea of voting with the much more complex concept of a fully functional, representative Democracy.

    I misunderstood this myself at one time. When I was a child, I remember being completely stunned when I first found out the Hitler had been *elected* to the German Chancellory. (Before that I had assummed that the Nazis violently overthrew the last of the weak Weimar democrats).

    Later I came to realize that even the fundamentally anti-democratic will at times use democratic institutions (the ballot box, the courts, media, etc) as shortcuts to acheive their goals–often laughing at the poor stupid “civilized” people who let them get away with it.

    I hope the Dutch stand up to this idiocy at last.