"The general noted that the enemy has no such values." From the American Forces Press Service, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
WASHINGTON, Sept. 21, 2006 – Much has been made in recent days of an aerial photograph taken in Afghanistan that reportedly shows hundreds of Taliban fighters attending a funeral and the decision to refrain from wiping out the gathering militarily.At a Pentagon news conference today, the commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan said the rules of engagement provide all the flexibility needed to take the fight to the enemy and to protect coalition forces, but the decision in this case was not as simple as it might appear to be.
Army Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry said the intelligence available to the coalition commander on the ground did, indeed, support the belief that the gathering was for the funeral of a mid-level Taliban operative. “It was also reasonable to believe that, as he looked down at that photograph or looked down at the video, that a number of the people that were standing there at that funeral were Taliban fighters,” the general added.
But it’s what the picture didn’t show that ultimately led to the decision not to strike, Eikenberry said. Just outside the frame, he said, was an Afghan village.
“And it also was reasonable for the commander to conclude from that village that there were probably innocents -- maybe sympathetic to Taliban, but innocents, noncombatants -- that had moved to participate in that funeral,” the general said. And the photo couldn’t rule out the possible presence of women and children, he added.
“So that commander made a decision, based upon our values as a people, based upon our values as a nation, that he would not strike,” Eikenberry said.
The general noted that the enemy has no such values.
“I would point out to everybody that (the coalition commander’s decision not to strike the funeral gathering) stands in very sharp contrast to an enemy that will kill religious leaders wantonly, that will kill teachers in order to intimidate parents to keep their children out of school houses, that will -- as they proved themselves last week -- throw a suicide-bomber at a patriotic governor of Afghanistan who came from his home in Australia to serve his nation. That's what distinguishes us from the enemy,” he said.
The excuses of a fool trying to hide a bad decision behind the pretence of the high moral ground.
Yah screwed up general, why not just admit it, and you let down those people risking their lives in battle.
Time to retire so you 'can spend more quality time with my family'.
The terrorist you do not kill today, could be the terrorist that kills you tomorrow.
What the general did not say is "Well, we noticed two clicks to the east that a CNN truck was filming the entire area, so we really could not blow up a bunch of 'innocents'"
Islam knows the Western civilization has higher values, therefore they take advantage whenever they can.
Unfortunately in the present situation, our values are working against us.
Hopefully one day sheer survival instinct will cause us to override those values and strike hard at islam until it is annihilated.
what fools we have for generals, they are most likely the product of vietnam. it is going to take more deaths for these losers to realize we are at war, and we need to win, and only those wanting to win will figh to win.
We will not win this war on a military front. We can't win. That is why Bush has adopted the stance that we will spread democracy. This to shall fail.
We will not win this war until we are willing as a people to authorize our government, or some other agency to spread the same sort of indiscriminate terror to these appeasing nations. Schools, mosques, funerals, whatever. Until it becomes open season on anyone who supports, turns a blind eye, or even smiles at an Islamic extremist I am afraid we will fight this war until our own obliteration.
We cannot rely on blowing up infrastructure. Show these people what terror could be. Kill them in their homes and in their beds. Kill them at school and at worship services. For a while it will get worse, and terrorists will be invigorated, however the time will come when our resolve is greater than theirs, and that is when we will have won the war.
They want to burn an effigy of the Pope, I say we burn one of Mohammed. Burn one in every city, hang effigies of Mohammed at bridge overpasses by a rope around his neck.
Assalamau Laikum all,
Jam47 says "They want to burn an effigy of the Pope, I say we burn one of Mohammed. Burn one in every city, hang effigies of Mohammed at bridge overpasses by a rope around his neck."
So what are you waiting for then Jam...do the 1st one...or are U like the others "waiting for someone else" to do it.
Nice sentiments from the general. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thinking that helped lose the Vietnam War. I'm afraid the stakes are much higher in this one.
The general has just announced to the world's terrorists that they'll be immune from attack if they make sure to have a few women and/or children with them.
Hey, Naseem - was that incitement for violence? Not very cute of Ahmadiyah sect.
In fact, you're literally playing with fire.
In Europe, nazism and fascism never died out. It survived on the fringes in the 50s and 60s, then slowly gaining ground again. Now in 2006, the popular support for various extreme parties in the whole Europe is highest in last 60 years. And this is due to Islam and its constant menacing speeches and deeds. People stick with the home-born devil because, given the choice of living under a tyrant on their own or being a slave of a foreign master, they prefer the first.
One day, perhaps after next great terrorist attack, someone will do precisely what you wish for - and you will be surprised of the mob that will attend that meeting. And things once unthinkable will became commonplace again. Who will stop the avalanche then?
Unfortunately, too many Muslims are busy initiating it. Maybe they look on the seemingly "decadent" Western societies and are not aware of the demonic fires buried in European hearts. We literally walk on the earth full of bones of our killed ancestors - and we well know that.
Europe in 1910 was a peaceful continent after 40 years of peace. In 1915, it was pure hell. Same people, other circumstances.
Shalom Naseem,
Don't worry, I am building my first homage to Mohammed...
Just the sheer mention of it is gaining the response that I want to accomplish with this episode. In all of your posts, I have never found you so short and with such a provocateur attitude. You see, here is point I wish to make with it.
Moslems all over the world condemn what the pope said, peace loving, moderate, fanatic, whatever flavor. Some Moslems are rioting, burning, and killing women of the cloth. However you do not see Christians rioting in the streets, you do not see them calling for the beheading of Muslim clerics, or their death, do you?
What I will show is that with just one incident, if it can make it main stream media, is that Moslems all over the world will riot, vow to kill, destroy and behead the west.
Unfortunately, even on the peaceful side of Islam that you claim to be on, I think you would have picked up a knife and stabbed me in the chest if we had been having this conversation face to face and you were able to react on your first instinct.
He will rear his devilish head very soon, just be patient my dear.
This is more proof that America does not consider the islamic threat equal to the Nazi threat, nor the need to conquer its modern enemy to be the same as the need to conquer Germany. During WW II, the allies bombed German towns and cities where millions of civilians, "innocents", resided. Indeed, their deaths were not collateral damage, but in fact, deliberately targeted. Yet, the islamic scourge gets a degree of respect we did not afford Christian Germans. How ironic.
The only explanation for this is that there is a feeling of pity for these muslim cretins. Perhaps it is their dirty, filthy, ragtag appearance that elicits sympathy. Perhaps it is that their ankles show because their pants are too short for want of enough cloth. Perhaps it is because they do not wash and the fleas and lice are deemed punishment enough. Perhaps it is because they all look 100 years old with their Santa Claus beards and Santa Claus is a respected figure in the west. Or perhaps it is because we just pity muslims as the lowly sand dwellers they are, and 60 years of peace has made us too soft to kill such "civilians".
Either way it shows that we do not afford the respect to our enemy that we should. We don't fear them, we pity them. We know we are morally above them, so we feel we need to act that way. That's a misguided sense of superiority of course. The west invented industrial killing and we should not feel above using it when the enemy is so numerous and fanatical.
I guess it is because the Germans were clean, organized, well dressed, shaved, and they probably smelled good. In other words they were white westerners. The diametric opposite of what we face today. We respect the abilities of our people, for we know our own capabilities. Great scientific minds gave the Nazis super weapons and their hardworking people gave them a fantastic industrial might. Thus we felt compelled to slaughter them wholesale in their towns and cities. We sought to demoralize them by killing their children and wives.
We look at the muslim world, conversely, and see that they are capable of nothing, and thus don't really fear them. That is why we today use the police to fight the jihad, instead of the B-52. In WW II, we would never have thought of using the NY police department to take on the Nazis. But muslims just aren't in the same league as our white Christian enemies of yore. They just get no respect. Like Rodney Dangerfield. All they get is pity.
That is also why we continue to invite them to live with us. Because we just don't fear them like we feared the Germans. Of course, none of us wants to live with them, as their physical appearance is so unsettling and the cries of the goat getting its throat cut in the bathtub would taint the laughter of our children at play. So we let them in but then give them wide berth, not out of fear, just out of a sense of how revolting they are, both metaphorically and physically.
I have always thought that this bigotry of low expectations is not a good thing. Yes, muslims are incapable of winning any awards or prizes, unless the award is called a Bugg, but I feel that we should give them the same respect we gave the white Christian Germans. Not to do so, would be racist. And that same respect would entail treating them equally to Germans. So we should not refrain from killing their soldiers, just because doing so might accidently kill some of their innocents. Indeed, we should target the muslim civilians, not only because they are part of the war effort, but also because, like the Germans, we should seek to demoralize them through the slaughter of their wives and children. I believe in the equality of all people, and thusly, all people should be given equal respect, or equal fear, depending on the circumstances.
So yes, I say to our military men, the next time you see a bunch of enemy combatants in a graveyard next to some "innocents", don't let your bigotry of low expectations stop you from giving them the respect they deserve.
Would the United State have bombed Reinhard Heydrich's funeral during WWII. I'm sure many "innocent" non-combattants attended that love-fest.
I am sure that now that these innocents have seen the video of how we could have bombed them and did not. Because of course we are better than they morally (we got the high ground). Now they probably like us because of our goodness. They will walk hand in hand with our forces and roast marshmallows and weenies (non-pork) over an open fire in a display of gratitude. Then these folks will press the button on their exploding vests and walk hand in hand with us into Allahland. End of story and a lot of innocent lives.
August22 raises a good point-underestimating the enemy for ethnic/racial reasons. The same thing happened in WW2 with Japan- they were considered poor pilots at first because they all seemed to be squinty and wear glasses. Pearl Harbor and other occasions showed otherwise. I don't underestimate the current enemy. Fanatics who are desperate will do anything to advance their cause
(as the Kamikaze of WW2 showed) and should frighten us far more than a "clean looking" enemy
that we could easily take as a neighbor.
I saw the general answering the question yesterday on TV and I thought if that is the way we are running the war against the Taliban, there is no way in hell we are ever going to win..
Assalamau-Laikum Jam,
You say "you do not see Christians rioting in the streets, you do not see them calling for the beheading of Muslim clerics, or their death, do you?"
No Jam, I have to admit that the christain does not do this, and that he is far smarter than this. He lights a fire and as soon as it dies slightly ...then lights another.....to the point where together they can vote in an administrtion that is highly conservative or perhaps a pope with some balls to wage yet another crusade or two.
Ofcourse this would not happen if the muslim wouldn't play into his hands each time....it simply amazes me how my "brethern" in Lahore rises to the bait every time...and that is the misfortune of the muslim...he cannot help it.
You say "Unfortunately, even on the peaceful side of Islam that you claim to be on, I think you would have picked up a knife and stabbed me in the chest if we had been having this conversation face to face and you were able to react on your first instinct".
Well I cannot control you thinking such evil thoughts. I can only try to put your mind at rest by saying that as a woman "NEVER" never never would I resort to violence on a point of religious debate. My strategy is peaceful dawa...something that can help all muslims to dominate the globe...only they are not realising this yet!
Were you to cause personal vicious harm to my personal family I cannot say the same, but my "family" does not extend to the Ummah.
Jam, there are too many things wrong with religion, too many peoples who want power because of it...and too many peoples defending it on simplistic gestures...and too many different messages...for example there are many violent passages in the Bible too...it is to the credit of the christian to ignore these.
In my view religion is up for debate...without resorting to inhuman vile words....that my friend is what causes problems.
The muslim today reacts the only way he knows how, the red mist surrounds him all too easily...perhaps tomorrow it will change...only Allah knows.
But you take care my friend, burn the effegy if you feel you must ...but I'm afraid it will serve to push the rhetroic up one more notch.
I'd be happy to debate things with you whenever, however...violence in religious matters is for morons....the pen and the cartoons seem to be more effective.
Shalom
HEADLINE:
Naseem admits Christians smarter than Muslims.
Next HEADLINE:
Naseem in hiding after dumb Muslims take exception to previous headline.
When's the firewall in Pakistan coming up, Naseem?
Every American, especially Mother’s or Father’s should email/write/phone the appropriate parties. Tell them you are enraged that the Generals moral high ground will cost lives and limbs of our loved ones. What would Washington have thought of this ignoramus? What do you think Patton’s reaction would be? This is just more of the John McCain, Milk and Cookies approach to handling the enemy. The people of this country deserve better than this. General, Do you feel superior letting those who butcher children for sport, murder office workers for revenge? Thank God this person and those like him were not around in WWII. We would all be shoes or belts today.
Opp’s,
Do you feel superior letting those who butcher children for sport, murder office workers for revenge, live to maim or kill another day?
Gosh! I hope the enemy(aka misguided members of the Religion of Peace) don't figure out that putting women and children near "targets" will assure their safety. That would not be nice for us!
Why would the military even release such a photo is beyond me. Who authorized it? Push the button and be done with it. We are used to seeing the aftermath of attacks and things would've been doctored up anyway after the attack!
Naseem definitely needs da'wa lessons.
Every post she makes hardens the resolve of the "infidels" and make us more determined NOT to bow down to her Satanic cult - yer she thinks that somehow her efforts will influence someone here to convert. I've never seen such poor attempts at trying to convince someone to share your point of view - they all certainly backfire.
Gee, I sure hope no one reports her to the Pakistani government and tells them about her posts on JW/DW (Her son has already found a way around the firewall. They might be interested in that, also.)
Today's rules for war are simple:
1)Put your troops in harm's way.
2)Minimize enemy casualties.
3)Avoid undue damage.
4)Let the media go wherever it likes to document your "atrocities".
5)Offer a dozen or so apologies anytime the rules are violated.
If victory is achieved,that's fine (but feel very guilty about it). If you don't win, at least you can say you were humane and hope the enemy leaves you alone.
Maybe the Islamaniacs are right about us-we will lose in the end.
August22, your list of "perhapses" as to why we accord a more gingerly approach to the Islamic enemy than we did to the German enemy of WWII leaves out the most significant factor: the reverse racism that is at the core of PC Multiculturalism. Since most Muslims are non-white non-Westerners, and since non-white non-Westerners, according to the template of PC Multiculturalism, are not mature adult human beings who must be judged responsible for their ethical actions (and lapses thereof) but are, rather, to be treated as Noble Savages, children, animals, or forces of Nature; and since, according to the template of PC Multiculturalism, white Westerners are the sole sources of ethical actions and by their historical and present record of evils are to be judged as the sole source of suffering and corruption in the world -- then it follows logically that we cannot define the Muslim as an enemy in the appropriate and rational military sense, but most search around for various "root causes" for their "grievances" and "cultural expressions" -- the chief "root cause" being, of course, the geopolitical actions of evil Westerners.
Our commander-in-chief needs to ORDER Army Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry to leave his headquarters, get a rifle in his hand and then be the point man for EVERY engagement on the ground fighting the Taliban. Make that general lead from the front!
Since he is unwilling to remotely attack the enemy when he has them in his sights. Let him be right in the front line with a rifle siting them there.
The General, letting hundreds of Taliban escape to fight and kill our own troops, shows how little he values our own troops. Let him loose his life honorably in the front lines.
P.S. When Harry Truman was asked was it worth the loss of so many enemy lives to drop the A-bomb, to save many American lives, he said he would have dropped it even if would save just one American life.
Wouldn't a funeral be just the most appropriate place to bomb them? That way, they go directly from being attendees to getting buried.
Time to put McCain, Gramm, Warner and Collins - the GOP Jihadis (and Anthony Kennedy, Stephen Bryer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Sooter and John Paul Stephens) - in front of a firing squad - and summarily executed, so that Centcom can do what it needs to without bothering about polypragnomists in Congress crippling them. The last thing we need is our enemies in either our legislature or judiciary. John Boehner was right, but he needs to throw the above people in with the Dems when he talks about their allegance to the Jihadis.
We need another Truman. We need military officers who remember their basic training and their oath to our country. They didn't take an oath to spare terrorists, or their offspring and egg donors.
What really distinguishes us from the terrorists is our self-imposed, politically correct stupidity.
Assalamau-Laikum you to Naseem,
hey l work in a muslim free place, in fact muslims do not come within a hundred feet of my work.. the last time a pakistani muslim came to repair the furnace he ran out screaming practically. they now send only non muslims workmen.. seems police dogs scare the crap out you muslims lolol..
These taliban are not the root cause. They have been radicalized by Punjabis.
The punjabis are controlling them as their puppetts and punjabis are well-financed by Arabs and Iran.
The punjabis have been using F-16 to bomb the independence struggle of balochis, sindhis and kashmiris.
US should stop providing weapons to Punjabi-Arab axis of evil.
Give us freedom or give us death. Death to Punjabis. Indians must help us.
Anybody hear about any Muslim craziness from China? I'm sure there are a couple million of them in the westernnmost part of that country (like roaches, they seem to be everywhere in the world). Could it be that they know what the reaction would be if they stepped out of line? I doubt the Chinese army would wring its hands over what to do.
“So that commander made a decision, based upon our values as a people, based upon our values as a nation, that he would not strike,” Eikenberry said"
I'm sick of hearing this litany of American nobility. "Aren't we better than they are?" This is why we aren't winning. How can we win when half the country refuses to name the enemy let alone admit we are at war? We have this, morally superior image of not "stooping to their level." We're not savages are we? That was all fine and good when we battled uniformed armies who signed and adhered to the Geneva Convention. Now we have a shape shifting enemy who wears the uniform of the common civilian. Now our captured soldiers are subjected to the most brutal, sadistic torture before they are beheaded and booby-trapped!
We better adapt to the fight or we can regale our superiority from six feet under...
"the last time a pakistani muslim came to repair the furnace he ran out screaming practically"
A Muslim repairing something???
We did not attack because it is NOT P.C. to attack a dead warrior.
There are things called rules of engagement. One of these rules is to try not to kill civilians. This isn't an "under any circumstances" rule. Military commanders are constantly having to make judgment calls like this, often knowing it's damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't. As any of you cowardly armchair generals would find out if you ever actually had to get off your fat asses and participate in a real conflict. Or even bothered talking to someone in the armed forces. Easy to criticise when you're not there.
Anyway, our enemies love it when their women and children are killed. It just gives them more propaganda and recruitment tools. Why give them the satisfaction? We have the moral high ground, and we need to keep it. You angry little G.I. Joes don't like to hear that, but just keep on playing with your toy soldiers and fantasizing about Armageddon, while people of honour do the real work to save your miserable and undeserving selves.
angloirish:
The general making the decision WASN'T there. He's sitting comfortably and safe far away at headquarters, looking at the war through video monitors - playing the G.I. Joe war games on a computer.
I know a lot of military guys and do talk to them, and none of them would have let this happen. I don't want to have to see any of them coming back in body bags, after being killed by some of those same Taliban fighters.
The general is the one with the fat ass, and he's the one who should get off of it and get up in the Afghan hills and lead from the front now, not with a computer mouse in his hand, with a gun.
angloirishslav,
Here is an update, we are fighting jihadis who want Armageddon, we don’t. The jihadis in case you haven’t noticed expect male/female segregation. They would never get together in a tight formation with women. The jihadis hide behind their children while firing at our troops. They hide in mosques and they pray 5 times a day. Now we can’t hit them at a jihadi funeral. Should we make an appointment? What times/places are available/acceptable? Angry, yeah I’m angry, when our men come home without their legs or in body bags, their families left in sorrow, I don’t like it. You on the other hand are willing to sacrifice our men for the moral high ground. How many will it take to satisfy you? All of us maybe? And what exactly is the moral high ground against an enemy that delights in cutting the throats of men, women and children? Just because you woke up on 9-11 doesn’t mean it started there. Many of us have paid our dues and except for an age limit would do it again so save the insults for your fellow travelers. Take a look at the enemy, they spit on the Geneva Conventions. What a joke, as if the Conventions ever stopped anyone from abuse, except for us of course. Us suckers.
The general should be relieved of command. Muslims would never have hesitated to bomb a funeral if positions were reversed.
I wonder how many additional coalition soldiers will die for this indulgence of proving our moral superiority?
We are war with a vicious, implacable foe. We won't have the luxury of such indulgences for much longer.
That's what distinguishes us from the enemy,” he said.
No, what distinguishes us from the enemy is that they will do whatever it takes to win and we won't. They may well eventually win because of it.
Absolutely agree with you August22:
"Indeed, we should target the muslim civilians....we should seek to demoralize them through the slaughter of their wives and children".
There are no civilians among them...all are terrorists.
Rules to engage, moral high ground, proportional responce, etc.
This all sounds like it was written after WW2. wen never lost a war up till that point, but victory is getting harder to find when we fight trying not to kill, or looking at the rule book. It is up to the world if it wants to survive, and to do that, it must fight to win.
Try playing chess, you follow the rules, I will move any piece how I wish. Who would win? Not fair, you did not follow the rules. Sure I did, I followed Islam's rules. Cheat on treaties, lie to advance, mislead to win until you want to quit. I follow my own rules to get to victory.
The enemy is fighting to get victory, If you want to win you must do the same. We must take the option to survive, take it to the limits of what as needed for the win. Then, you can dial back and show compassion. Even take the time to read the rules, until someone else breaks them again.
Preportional responce sounds like a "eye for a eye", what book is that from?
Islam is the enemy, and fighting against it is the duty of the people of the country, to protect our own, and our children who need us to do so.