Pope Benedict XVI's statement that "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God" continues to prove itself incomprehensible to those who embrace the Verse of the Sword (9:5) as divine fiat.
From Haaretz: "Iraqi militant group threatens Vatican in Internet message"
An Iraqi insurgent group threatened the Vatican with a suicide attack over the pope's remarks on Islam, according to a statement posted Saturday in its name on the Web.
The statement, which came days after Pope Benedict XVI made comments deemed offensive by many Muslims, does not state the seat of the Holy See directly, but is addressed to "you dog of Rome" and threatens to "shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home."
"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life," said the message posted in the name of the Mujahedeen Army on a Web site frequently used by militant groups.
The message, the authenticity of which could not be independently verified, also contained links to video recordings of what the group claimed were rocket attacks on U.S. bases.
[...]
The Mujahedeen Army's statement vowed, "our minds will not rest until we shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home."
Pope Benedict XVI's Orwellian Address at the University of Regensburg has provoked, amongst other things, a storm of gullibility.
In an address purporting to invite dialogue between cultures is embedded a cynical guarantee that there will be no dialogue.
In an address purporting to be about the evils of 'religious violence' is embedded a pricking goad towards more 'religious violence'.
In an address purporting to promote harmony between faith and reason are embedded words specifically intended to incite faith without reason.
Is the journalistic world indeed so naive as to believe that the Pope, as beneficiary of the millenial experience of the finest statesmen and strategists the earth will ever see, did not know exactly what he was doing?
Are they so naive as not to recognise that every word is meticulously weighed and measured for short and long-term efficacy before issuing from the mouth of the 'Vicar of Christ' on earth.
Loose words do not fly in the Vatican's corridors of power.
In the full knowledge of the Vatican's own long and less-than-salubrious history, the Pope guilelessly draws attention to Islamic religious violence and pretends not to have realised that this self-righteous arrogance and hypocrisy would cause Muslim outrage. Of course, one can always 'apologise' later, knowing full well that nothing can erase a single word from the minds of those to whom it was directed.
What is the strategy being employed here - the endgame?
What has happened to the 'one big happy family' policy approach to Islam? Indeed, one could be cynical enough to conclude that the past encouragement of the Muslim flooding of Europe was just a ruse to destablise and provoke conflict to the stage where the Pope could step in as Saviour of Western Europe.
One could be even more cynical and conclude that, given his Western European heritage and his notorious intractability, Pope Benedict XV1 was chosen for that precise purpose.
We shall see...
If the worst should come to pass, I am ready to form the Joseph Ratzinger Society - move over John Birch.
Vynette Holliday, the following is a big load of crap: "In the full knowledge of the Vatican's own long and less-than-salubrious history,... yada yada yada ... knowing full well that nothing can erase a single word from the minds of those to whom it was directed."
Whatever excesses can be attributed to the Church was a long damn time ago. Would you please keep you anti-Catholic rants to the present. I bet you think this is all because of the Crusades.
Geez o peetez, Mr. Pelayo I thought only mo wanted to dislike what people said.
Wow! What a conspiracy theory. One for the ages. I'll have to sit and ponder that one for a while.
So the Pope, who was a priest at the time, but knowing full well 30 or so years ago, when the Muslim immigrants flooded Europe, that someday he would indeed be Pope at this time in history when we are facing a grave threat from Islamic extremists, and planned to give a speech which referenced an obscure quote from a 14th century Bizantine Emperor with the hopes of igniting Muslim outrage, which would eventually bring about the end of times?
Not too far of a leap.
In my humble opinion, the speech sounded like an attempt to bring some attention to the fact that MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS WANT TO KILL EVERYBODY NOT MUSLIM. Bringing that fact to light, and it is fact, would most likely stir some Muslims to answer the speech with some moderate dialouge in order to discuss ways in which peaceful Muslims can help convince Western Europe that not all Muslims are violent.
Guess he didn't realize how violent the Muslim world would react to a 700 year old quote claiming Islam promotes voilence.
Now we know that when you read a historical passage that claims Islam is a violent religion and not a peaceful faith, get ready for some violence.
Go figure.
My goodness!
Ivette's conspiracy-cook-book for those who need the KKK, the Mossad, the CIA, Opus Dei and of course "Bush" for all and everything that moves and rattles your roof-tiles....
What do we do with worthless crap like that?
But was the response from Muslimland anything other than predictable? How would anyone have expected otherwise? Perhaps some charitable understanding? Could there be some words of reconciliation between the faiths? Apparently not. The response from Islam was violence, and more threats of more violence. It looks like violence and threats from this 'religion of peace' takes it. Is this not what the carefully chosen words by Pope Benedict XVI was all about? To show the TRUE face of Islam?
"In the full knowledge of the Vatican's own long and less-than-salubrious history, the Pope guilelessly draws attention to Islamic religious violence and pretends not to have realised that this self-righteous arrogance and hypocrisy would cause Muslim outrage. Of course, one can always 'apologise' later, knowing full well that nothing can erase a single word from the minds of those to whom it was directed.
What is the strategy being employed here - the endgame?" - Vynette Holliday
That may well be the 'end game', to bring out the full force and fury of Islam's true colors. Let them foam and threatend and do suicide bombings, which is their normal modus operandi. Why should anyone be suprirsed by this? This is what Muslims do. The Christian world is not stuck in the days of the Crusades, when it tried liberating Jerusalem from conquests of the Saracens. We do not do Jihad. But if this is all they know, then let us see it clearly, for everyone in the world to see what this Jihad is all about. The Pope chose his words wisely.
Repeat after me:
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system.
Islam is not a violent belief system,
and keep on repeating it until you believe it!
As for Vynette Holliday (above)! What can one say? Dhimmis of the world unite? Give in now and submit? Surrender, you have lost? You are Western and therefore completely worthless? I'll do anything as long as I don't have to agree with the Vatican/Catholics? Isn't the Pope a nasty manipulative person but believers in islam aren't? Isn't the Vatican a great big conspiracy theory to destroy our peaceful relations with moslems? Anything that disturbs my worldview that everything is for the best in this the best of all possible worlds is just dirt under my feet, isn't it? I'm Vynette and you know I'm right, don't you? And you know, don't you, because I'm Vynette and I'm always right, that islam isn't really a threat - it's all in your head, really?
I've never been so disgusted in my life!
Dominic.
Vynette Holliday: "the Pope guilelessly draws attention to Islamic religious violence and pretends not to have realised that this self-righteous arrogance and hypocrisy would cause Muslim outrage."
I.e. The wife asks her husband why he keeps beating her up and he replies (as he belts her across her face) that she needs to understand that her "self-righteous arrogance" in posing this question causes him to respond this way.
Or Vynette - is it merely a problem for you that her skirt was too short in the first place, in which case the f***ing b**ch obviously had it coming anyway?
Vynette:
Your absurd conspiracy theory is surely an indication of toxic mental effects of fear, repression and desparate denial. To imagine such a bizarre scenario (you call the Pope "Orwellian") rather than face the truth that there is something deeply wrong with the "religion of peace" leaves me aghast. When was the last time Catholics or any other group you know of besides Muslims reacted en masse around the globe to a criticism levelled against it with these kind of ugly, feral demonstrations, bombed airliners, destroyed buildings slaughtered hundreds or thousands of people, etc, etc.
Wake up and smell the reality!
Reading the Pope's comments, he is an intelligent man who recognizes that current frictions have the potential to grow into a world-wide conflict. The provocative comments may or may not have been intentional. From the last paragraph of his presentation:
"...we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university."
His reasoned remarks were met with uproar, threats, and killing. The dialog has begun.
I'm sick of people saying that just because you had some awful things in your history, that you've got no right to say anything about others TODAY. As if Islam's been lily white and pure all along.
Why aren't we allowed to confront Islam? To point out our concerns with what's happening today? People are dying. But, oh, no, we're not allowed to say anything because hundreds of years ago, our history wasn't pure and lily white. So, don't mention anything, and that'll make everything fine, will it? Few people were mentioning Islam on September 10, 2001.
...threatens Vatican with suicide bombers...
Yes, exactly. Let us remember what this thread is all about. His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI had the temerity to suggest that islam is a violent belief system.
And moslems worldwide proved that he was wrong by threatening to write strong letters of condemnation, and 'phoning in to their talk shows, and writing to their MPs, and lobbying the UN and ... oh, wait, sorry, I was imagining, just for a moment, that we were dealing with rational people. Did you have to wake me up? It was such a lovely dream.
Dominic.
Muslims hate the Pope and want him killed. They refer to him in sub-human terms and claim he's behind a world-wide conspiracy against Islam.
Next, they'll accuse the Pope of being a Jew.
I completely agree with the comments made here and elsewhere on JihadWatch and on other weblogs as well: Are these reactions entirely expected? Why would anyone expect otherwise?
Ms. Holliday's remarks are typical Dhimmi cant. Always blame jihad's victims for the violence, never the progenitors of jihad. The Pope said nothing that was not true.
Of course, if your default position is always to hate the Christian and Jewish traditions, you will give the benefit of the doubt to the new, muscular, strident, and completely confident big dog on the block: Islam.
People like her are irrelevant now. And if Islam ever succeeded in adding her European Utopia to dar al Islam, her kind would be extinct. The scimitar gets first dibs with the Left.
As the few surviving Iranian Leftists what happened after the Islamic revolution there. They were shocked at the ingratitude of the the Ayatollah.
Two more things you'd better get straightened out, Vynette if you want to have a hope of surviving Jihad:
First, don't think they wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for the Pope's comments, or any of the numerous pretexts they use. History proves otherwise. Non-muslims, including Europeans in their western homelands, have suffered Islamist violence for over 1400 years. This violence was what caused the Crusades, NOT the other way around as you fondly imagine!! Pretexts are convenient strategies of psychological warfare for undermining weak spineless creatures like you, but they are not necesary to justify Jihad. The mere fact that you dare to exist is enough for them.
Secondly, Islamic extremists do not respect cringing cowards like you. You think you're approach will keep you or anyone safe from this kind of violence? To them your cowering appeasement is a pathetic sign of contemptible weakness that will only encourage more of same.
In fact, people like you are going to get us all enslaved or killed.
This is the advice I would like to givr all you people of the US. And listen to me well.
Even though my muslim brothers should not be rioting and destroying churches in muslim lands. And we are not justified in acting violently I implore you people of the US to not take out your vengance on the muslims in the US. You may ask why.
The reason is the same reason George Bush has been giving you for a while. When he states that Islam is a peaceful religion he really means he does not want anarchy happening in the US. He does not want riots to happen there. Especially while your troops are in Iraq.
I believe the jihadists want you to take out your wrath on the local muslims so your governments forces will get diverted. DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN. Hang in there. If you want organize peaceful protests, preferably by Christians pointing out the hipocrosy of the muslim fanatics.
Remember, even though you're mad don't fall into their trap. My suggestion is also to march in front of the Saudi Arabian, Egyptian, Iranian, and Syrian Embasseys and demand religious freedom of expression for Christians in muslim lands. You should be allowed to display your crosses in public.
Email the muslim websites with:
Freedom Now for Christions in muslim lands. No to persecution. Please let you voices be heard. Do it now. You have been quite too long.
These guys who keep saying how much we in the West love life obviously never spoke to any married men.
I've been reading this story and that story about Pope Benedict and how he is destroying everything Pope John Paul set up and comparisons of the difference between the two. Here is my response. As much as I loved Pope John Paul and thought of him as a courageously good man, it is time to move on. I have faith in Benedict as Pope. Sure he doesn't kiss the Qur'an or the land he lands on, but that's not his style. But while people are questioning him on these grounds, I have a couple of questions myself.
Why don't we see any Imams,Ayatollahs, and other Muslim clerics kissing Bible's or Torah's as a sign of good faith?
Why don't we see Imams, Ayatollahs, and other Muslim clerics visiting Christian Churches and Jewish Temple's?
I hope this blows over soon and Benedict stays well protected. I will continue pray for him, as well as the other people who are being assaulted by the violence.
Patriot 1/17
Mekoots
It is not the wish of people like me to visit violence upon you or your fellows. I actually think that the Christians and Jews of the West have been very, very patient with the shabby treatment we have received in the lands of dar al Islam. Far too patient, going back fourteen hundred years of jihad conquest we did not provoke in any way. Tens of millions of us have perished by the Sword and even more have been driven from lands we lived on for many centuries before the armies of Islam arrived.
I understand the details of the Dhimma. It is not right that we should be relegated to second-class status, at best.
We do not force Muslims to convert to Christianity or Judaism. Plus, our image of God is very different from Muhammed's, which is why we do not believe in jihad.
Finally, the problems that "moderate Muslims" face are formidable, since theologically you have a mountain to climb in order to de-legitimize the jihadists' use of Qur'an, ahadith, and Sira.
I support any Muslim who renounces jihad and every Qur'anic injunction which denies full liberty to every human being, of both sexes, without restriction.
"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life,"
How fitting. After all, the angel of destruction, of death, is Satan... and Satan is the religion of Islam... the very same religion of lies and murder.
They have no sense of irony... no sense whatsoever... nevermind that they are reacting with their typical savagery when confronted with the fact of their savagery.
Islam has robbed these men of their huamnity and made them into something worse then beasts.
You've seen Mel Gibson's movie 'Passion of the Christ'! Now read the book that nullifies the central premise of the film – the ‘divinity’ of Jesus of Nazareth.
If you liked The Da Vinci Code, you'll love Every Best Gift by Vynette Holliday.
How can we be so sure, you ask? Because it has the exact same plot!
But wait, there's more! If you act now, you can get her other great book, Bush Did It! We all know he did it, but this fabulous expose shows the in's and out's of how and why Bush brought down those towers!
[sarcasm off] What a freak!
Vynette Holliday,
First of all, never stop taking your meds suddenly. Always do that under a doctor's care.
There is nothing anyone could say about anything I believe which would cause me to do violence. Trash the U.S. Constitution, Enlightenment, Renaissance humanism. Really, do your worst. Unless you threaten me or my family the worst you'll get is a sound verbal (here typed) thrashing.
Are we to assume a group of over a billion people can't come up with one rational response to an intellectual argument? After the Khartoon Kerfuffle, Ice Cream Cone Jihad, Saudi Arabian Flag Flap, and countless other ridiculous reasons for violence, or threats of violence, perhaps we should all simply surrender to the hordes and give up our hard-fought fundamental freedoms.
But not really.
[sorry about the link]
You've seen Mel Gibson's movie 'Passion of the Christ'! Now read the book that nullifies the central premise of the film – the ‘divinity’ of Jesus of Nazareth.
If you liked The Da Vinci Code, you'll love Every Best Gift by Vynette Holliday.
How can we be so sure, you ask? Because it has the exact same plot!
But wait, there's more! If you act now, you can get her other great book, Bush Did It! We all know he did it, but this fabulous expose shows the in's and out's of how and why Bush brought down those towers!
[sarcasm off] What a freak!
Feralee,
"I'm sick of people saying that just because you had some awful things in your history, that you've got no right to say anything about others TODAY. As if Islam's been lily white and pure all along".
Absolutely.I am appalled at the explosively violent reaction of indian muslimes too which is tacitly approved and empathised with by many dhimmies of india.
Only one anti dhimmi newspaper Daily Pioneer has the following article .Posting in full:
Pope is right on Islam
Swapan Dasgupta
At the height of the war in Lebanon two months ago, an assortment of Arabs, British Muslims, radical socialists and bleeding heart liberals marched through the streets of London with placards proclaiming "we are all Hezbollah." Since Pope Benedict XVI delivered his scholarly but contentious lecture in Regensburg last Wednesday, an equally unlikely assortment of individuals bound by a common distaste for Islamist terrorism have been whispering the counter-proclamation: "We are all Papists now."
Before rushing to take rival positions in the trench warfare of civilisations, it is prudent to remember that the contemporary Islamist assault on the "decadent" West, epitomised by "American imperialism", has long enjoyed the backing of influential Muslim theologians. This is, perhaps, the first time that the philosophical gulf between Islam and Western civilisation has been delineated by someone who wields authority in the Christian world.
Pope Benedict, unlike many of his colleagues in Rome, has not succumbed to either the pretensions of Christian universalism or the mumbo jumbo of inter-faith dialogue. He has rightly viewed both Christianity and the Catholic Church as load-bearing pillars of Western civilisation. He has disavowed the growing secularisation of national cultures and, by implication, called into question the moral relativism which accompanies the practice of multiculturalism in the EU.
In an article If Europe Hates Itself written when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, the Pope despaired about Europe's growing inability to distinguish good from evil: "The West reveals ... a hatred of itself, which is strange and can only be considered pathological; the West ... no longer loves itself; in its own history, it now sees only what is deplorable and destructive, while it is no longer able to perceive what is great and pure."
In November 2004, he despaired that secular ideology which is "imposed through politics... does not give public space to the Catholic or Christian vision (and) runs the risk of becoming something purely private and, thus, disfigured."
The Regensburg lecture amounted to a Christian critique of the violence that is inherent in political Islam. However, rather than fall back on the politically expedient and customary detachment of Islamism from Islam, the Pope chose to distinguish between Christianity's reason-based European underpinnings and Islam's faith-based traditions centred also on literal acceptance of its texts. By implication, his lecture was also an attack on some of the more aggressively evangelical churches found in the US and would have been treated as such if the references to the Byzantine experience had been omitted. In arguing that violence was at odds with reason, the Pope was also tacitly repudiating some of Christianity's bloody inheritance, but this aspect of his lecture has been overshadowed by the furore over Islamic certitudes.
What the Pope argued last week is not strikingly original. Many of the contemporary critiques of Islam have dwelt at length on the fact that the apparent finality of the Quran has made it difficult for Islam to experience a Reformation. What is also undeniable is that whereas the claims of Islam to be a religion of peace have been unceasingly made, almost all the Islamists have justified their terrorism in terms of religious obligation.
Heinous crimes have been committed and justified in the name of religion. Concern has also been voiced that the tenets of brotherhood in Islam do not always extend to non-believers, making them incompatible with multi-religious existence.
These are issue which warrant dispassionate debate and dialogue. The Pope may have been injudicious in citing a 14th century assessment by a Byzantine emperor but the questions he has raised are relevant both in theological and political terms. What is alarming is the fierce reaction to his lecture. They suggest that any debate on Islam based on critical scrutiny is bound to be accompanied by threats and intimidation. Far from encouraging sympathetic understanding of Muslim societies, this climate of intolerance is certain to fuel Islamophobia.
Political correctness necessitates debunking the clash of civilisations but realities on the ground are beginning to suggest otherwise.
"What has happened to the 'one big happy family' policy approach to Islam?"
Nothing but total failure and increasing Muslim violence all over the world. That only lists the successful jihad attacks which lead to death. Trying to do a more comprehensive analysis would require the NSA's supercomputers all working overtime.
Vynette Holliday,
My apologies. I should not have been so rude to you. I am ashamed of myself. The wound, however, is still raw and therefore I used intemperate language. I disagree with you but I could have expressed my disagreement more calmly and rationally. For my intemperate rudeness please accept my apologies. For my disagreement with your viewpoint - well, that stands and you are welcome to disagree right back.
Dominic.
I'm getting so angry at these people, and so tired of them. Other than reading Jihad Watch, I don't know what to do about them. When I try to talk about Jihad with people I know, they come back with "But Christianity is just as bad", the Rosie O'Donell defense. I just wish that I knew how to get through to them.
NovaRocket,
Absolutely. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Death, destruction, foaming at the mouth hatred. These are the marks of the devil. And the sooner we tell the truth about what is actually going on here, the sooner we can do something about it. If we are dealing with a supernatural enemy we need a supernatural response to combat it. Otherwise all the talk in the world will just keep us under the delusion that we are dealing with reasonable adversaries and that we can somehow come to an agreement if we just keep trying.
"For all we have and are,
For all our children's fates,
Stand up and take the war.
The Hun is at the gate!"
Rudyard Kipling
Mekoots,
"I believe the jihadists want you to take out your wrath on the local muslims"
Haven't you noticed? We don't take vengeance in the way that you anticipate - and we never have. We are civilised. Only moslems react in the way that you are afraid of which is why you are trying, oh-so-very-hard, to project that type of behaviour onto us. We in the West are capable of controlling ourselves - which is more than your fellow moslems can, as we have seen countless numbers of times over the last 1350 years. What you fear - a violent backlash against the musselman in our societies - is not our way. It is that which makes us superior to you in every way. Our way is the rule of law - not, thank God, sharia, but real law, honest law, rational law, human law as given to us by God through our God-given reason.
Dominic.
Mekoots:
I too would be loathe to see the kind of backlash against all Muslims that you describe and I would resist this mightily, but I do think that we in the West would be justified in taking security measures in our relations with Muslim communities here such as deporting some back to Islamic countries and excluding Muslims from the police, the military, security agencies, from public offic and other vital services until such time as this dreadful conflict is sorted out and the Islamic world can undergo meaningful reform that renders it benign and capable of living alongside us peacefully in the spirit of mutual respect that I think the vast majority very much desire. I pray earnestly that this type of change can somehow happen in the Umma.
Keep in mind that much of the anger you read in these pages is "blowing off steam" because of the outrage that we feel at these events, and most of us would not want to harm innocent Muslims of see them harmed. Keep in mind also that my proposal for these kind of measures is not meant to harm your community or other Muslims like you (assuming that you are serious in what you say and not posing - forgive me for saying this but I am aware of the approval given practices such as Taqiyya in Islamic moral theology), but precisely to protect you and others such as you as well because without this I have grave doubt that Muslims who are peaceful and progressive as you claim to be can successfully resist the violence and intimidation that wells up so readily in the Umma.
And here's where things get really difficult. It seems to me that we have to ask you, Mekoots, and others like you to take measures, not only in your own countries, but your coreligionists in the West, to launch the kinds of demonstrations you mention and to undertake other measures to protect non-Muslims. This may not be easy, but this is the only hope that non-Muslims in Islamic countries have. You, as their fellow citizens of these lands, have to be willing to offer them the same kind of protection and advocacy for them that you ask of us for Muslims here. The Muslims here would also be seen in a much more favorable light by most Westerners if they were publicly demonstrating, denouncing fanaticism much more than they are. When a Muslim youth in my city committed a hate crime against a local non-Muslim house of worship, members of his mosque leaned on him to turn himself in to police and have counselled him to make restitution and amend his life, which he has done, to the great satisfaction of all. This kind of thing is very good and I credit the local Muslim community for this, but it is quiet and behind the scenes and attracts little notice. And quite frankly, it simply is not enough. The Muslim community must be much more visible, and most of all its leaders must be seen to clearly condemn Islamist violence, not our indignant reaction to it, nor the statement of the Pope, however poor his choice of words in this particular instance may have been.
I will take your words very much to heart, and I would ask you do the same with mine. May God have mercy on us all. Thank you for contacting us.
The "Da Vinci Code"- that was it.
I couldn't remember it, I don't watch crap like it and I would never bother to read such a book. Reality is the most bizarre and incredible of all things. It is annoying that so many people, like Ivette above-, cannot get themselves to use common sense and prefer wild fantasies over reality...
Yeah, the 'X-files' & the 'planet of the apes' and all the zombie-horror-movies left a dent in the brains of many. What will it take to shake them out of their slumber?
Well said Crows&Cows: " Political correctness necessitates debunking the clash of civilisations but realities on the ground are beginning to suggest otherwise."
it was not the lecture as much as the vehement response to the lecture that gave such stark contrast between the civilization of reason and the 'civilization' of submissive obedience. How can free men and women have dialogue with enslaved men and women, especially if the slaves want to kill you for not being enslaved like them? Slaves of Allah have lost all reason, so dialogue is impossible. What does it leave then? Where do we go from here if dialogue, as solicited by Pope Benedict, is proving impossible? The gulf between these two worlds, one of the 21st century, and the other of the 7th century, is so great that even words of reason cannot bridge it. So where does it go now? What is the logical outcome? Violence? But this time, it may not be from them.
BTW, the Vynette Hollidays, if not just trolling, are becoming irrelevant in this new reality on the ground. Few will be left to believe them.
"The citizens of the world can no longer afford the luxury of catering to the 'sensibilities' of religious folk - including Muslims.
Instead of side-stepping in fear of giving 'offense', it needs to be demonstrated to Muslim believers that this Qur'an, this fountainhead of fervour and discord, is not worthy of their faith, not to mention their lives, and is NOT a word-for-word copy of tablets existing eternally in heaven.
Undermine faith in the Qur'an as the word of God.
There is no other way!"
Posted by: Vynette Holliday at May 30, 2006 08:14 AM
I'm no psychiatrist, but am I detecting some schizophrenia?
No, in the west we don't take out our wrath on Muslims. Might it have something to do with many of us having been brought up Christian, whether we practice now or not? But the in-your-face facts of the matter are that we have an enemy who stands ready to kill us, has sworn to take over our lands and eradicate our faiths and our way of life, force us into slavery and dhimmitude, threatened to kill the Pope and, indeed, has already started a murderous rampage that make the cartoon capers earlier this year look like a birthday party.
How many of our people will it be acceptable for them to kill before we get mad enough to say enough is enough? I thought 9/11 was our last straw. And what about all the non-Muslims in Muslim countries? Are we going to wait until a few tens of thousands are put to the sword before we react? They push us, everyday, and we hesitate to respond effectively because we are too nice. Will it take your child or mother or spouse being killed before you stand up and say, I will take no more, I will protect my country and my loved ones?
A threat against the Pope's life is a calling card for serious jihadic activity, coming to a theatre near you. Are we going to stand by and let him be murdered or are we going to do something about it before it is too late?
In my minds eye, I can see the little sand monkies ranting and raving and scratching their arm pits, over the truth that the Pope spoke.
Dominic:
I appreciate your efforts at charity with Vynette, but I think that if there's anyone you might want to ease up on its Makoots. I respect your convictions and I have defended you in the past in another thread against a poster named Jeff. As a former Greek Catholic seminarian who has not yet closed the door on ordination as a priest I think I'm well enough informed to recognize what perspective you're writing from but I hope you'll excuse me if I got any of it wrong. Either way I appeal to you not to become so hardened against the enemy we face that there is no room in your heart for the love that is asked of you for them as well. Makoots has so far made all the kind of noises that we ask of Muslims to secure our trust and friendship and deserves a chance - a wary one I readily grant you - to demonstrate his good faith. It seems to me that we have to offer what encouragement we can to him and others who make similar overtures. If you close your heart utterly to him you'll be hurting yourself as well. Furthermore, his concern about the safety of law-abiding Muslims in the west is a valid one, from every angle he examines it. 'Nuff said about that.
Now for Vynette again. Vynette, troll or not, for what its worth, I should probably apologize as well. I am drained after spending a great deal of time and energy trying to persuade another person making appeasement noises like yours above at the expense of the Pope, and it is absolutely galling to me how its possible for anyone in the West not recognize the threat to ALL civilization, not just Western, by Islamist fanaticism and the diabolical imperialism it represents, and not to feel rage and indignation about it. I will withdraw my insulting statements, but I repeat my earlier insistence that you open your eyes to what's really going on and stop pretending, hoping to make it go away.
Dear all,
I cannot believe the violence of the reaction here.
If you all had taken the time to read my post carefully, you would have discovered that I am NOT an Islamist and I am NOT a leftie, and I do NOT support violence in any form.
It's quite comical really because I've also been accused of being an "Israeli Foreign Ministry mouthpiece". Try and square that.
See what happens when you can't be shoved into a neat little pigeonhole - you are condemned as 'schizophrenic'.
How is it logical to assume that criticism of one side automatically means support of the other side.
Perhaps today, a commitment to truth IS schizophrenia. Oh, but I forgot, truth is just what you believe these days.
"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life,"
................
The first time I heard the old "We love death and you love Pepsi-Cola" I was incensed at how this trivialized our beliefs. I thought about the Enlightenment, the US Constitution, the great Western tradition of Reason, the concept of Equal Rights, universal sufferance, etc, etc.
But in some ways they are right--as complex as it can be in the details, in the big picture it really does come down to loving life or loving death.
All I can say is, grab me a cold frosty one next time you raid the fridge!
................
Xero G wrote:
Next, they'll accuse the Pope of being a Jew.
...........
Well, this has basically already happened. A number of top-ranking Iraqi Muslim clerics refered to the Pope and the Vatican as "Zionists". Can't make this stuff up.
Many radical Muslims basically think of all Westerners as "Jews and Christians", whatever their religious beliefs.
Vynette Holliday
Sorry for the crack. But there's no way PBXVI planned the simplisitc news coverage which painted him as an ogre. Moreover, like the Danish Cartoons, Islam never gets the point. The cartoons were made to test the waters on what could be said without threats and intimidation. As usual, the bar is so low we can't have western freedom where Islam is concerned.
As for some sort of "endgame," you're getting much to far out ahead on something like that. Talking about ends after 1,350+ years of jihad violence against the rest of the world seems unrealistic in the extreme. It might be the end of this pope if the Swiss Guard doesn't do a masterful job for the forseeable future.
Well, Vynette, we took you at your word and now you blame us for "misunderstanding" you.
You did far more than "criticize" B16, you accused him of being a conspirator trying to seize world power (or some such ridiculous thing that's not important enough for me to reread your posting to quote accurately).
You're free to believe such nonsense of course, but PLEASE! - its your OPINION, and a wacky one at that. Please don't call it "THE TRUTH" (!)
Also, Vynette, you made a number of statements that very much appeared to absolve the Muslim protesters of all responsibility for the crisis.
Vynette Holliday: "Oh, but I forgot, truth is just what you believe these days."
Who needs truth when you can just peddle wild conspiracy theories instead (and then disingenuously step aside and pretend you did nothing of the sort?):
Yvette Holliday: "Indeed, one could be cynical enough to conclude that the past encouragement of the Muslim flooding of Europe was just a ruse to destablise and provoke conflict to the stage where the Pope could step in as Saviour of Western Europe. One could be even more cynical and conclude that, given his Western European heritage and his notorious intractability, Pope Benedict XV1 was chosen for that precise purpose."
If you have a commitment to the "truth", as you claim, then show us the hard evidence that the Papacy encouraged the Muslim influx into Europe so they could step in to "save" western Europe. Seriously. I'm all ears where you so-called "truthers" are concerned. Oh - and by the way, how did you envision that the Pope was going to "save" Europe after promoting this scheme? Was the plan to send in his "Papal army" with their AK-47's?
Well, there's no more time for seditionists and traitors. If you're reading this right now and you don't love your Western heritage, then I strongly urge you to go profess your love and admiration for Muhammad, move to the Middle East and stay the hell away from those of us that haven't lost our minds and our will.
Re: "We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life," said the message posted in the name of the Mujahedeen Army on a Web site frequently used by militant groups.
Islam has revealed its very true violent nature.
Adoring death is inherently evil.
Adoring death has not roots in paradise.
A war of civilizations is occurring in our world today between death and life; darkness and light; good and evil.
It is a good thing that the Pope, the pastor of souls, has the courage to protect his flock from the vicious forces of Islam which seeks to terrorize the world with irrationality and violence.
Typo: Sorry
Adoring death has no roots in paradise.
I predicted this in an earlier post. Damnit, I wish I had been wrong.
My comments in upper case in parentheses on a few gems from the CNN story "Pope to address Muslim furor":
"Outside the Palestinian Embassy in Jakarta,.... organizer Heri Budianto shouted, "God is great."
"Of course as we know, the meaning of jihad can only be understood by Muslims," Budianto told the crowd. [FOR JIHAD IS SO IRRATIONAL THAT ONLY BORN LOSERS AND BRAINWASHED COWARDS CAN MAKE SENSE OF THE HATRED?]
"Only Muslims can understand what jihad is. It is impossible that jihad can be linked with violence, we Muslims have no violent character." [AND WE ARE PREPARED TO KILL ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THIS?]
Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi on Saturday urged the pope to apologize and withdraw his controversial comments...
"The pope must not take lightly the spread of outrage that has been created," .. "The Vatican must now take full responsibility over the matter and carry out the necessary steps to rectify the mistake." [NEVER MAKE THE MISTAKE OF STATING THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM, AS MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD TEND TO GET UNCONTROLLABLY VIOLENT AND WILL INDULGE IN PREDICATBLE MAYHEM AND KILLINGS?]
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.islam/
Vynette is a liar. To paraphrase a wonderful writer, every word she uses is a lie, including the words "and" and "the."
That is all.
Vynette has no stature. Compared to Pope Benedict she is just a flea.
She assumes (thuis making an ass of herself) that the Pope doesn't know what he is doing.
Appeasers like her have not succeeded in stopping the hatred against the West (she is so naive that she thinks she will escape Muslim hatred by siding with Islam).
Basically the Pope's very intelligent address tackles the fact that Christians and Muslim have two very different concepts of God.
The origin of terrorism is not something that Christians do, but the hatred against the West spread by Islam.
One cannot fight against terrorism without tackling the doctrinal hatred embedded in present-day Islam which sees the relatively successful West as an enemy.
Preaching liberalism and tolerance is not going to help because these are concepts too far removed from Muslim mind and from islam's present-day agenda.
The Pope’s speech (and the ensuing reactions)proves that one cannot fight against terrorism without fighting against the evil doctrine that inspires it.
Within months of John Paul II's 1979 papal visit to Poland, during which he called upon Poles to "recognize evil", there were riots by Polish workers, the rise of Solidarity and the spread of anti-communist dissidence throughout eastern Europe.
So, then, you all think this is a co-incidence? A Pole, an avowed hater of communism, just happens to get elected Pope and voila...riots in Poland...the end of Communism?
Now, please don't call me a communist because I point out a 'truth'. As for AK 47's...please...the Pope is embarking on a battle for minds.
As for what's been going on in Europe - you all must surely know that Pope John Paul II advocated the ecumenical embrace of Islam and, just as in Australia, the churches were in the forefront of stifling any sort of debate about Muslim immigration. It was always the same issue - human rights.
Now, a different Pope for a different agenda - the reclamation of Europe. A complete about-face and nobody notices?
"Remember, even though you're mad don't fall into their trap."
Um, no, most western people don't react in violent mobs to even large threats and insults these days.
Vynette: I think I understand your statement, and people like Rocky have rather mis-read it, as your point is surely that the pope knew exactly what he was saying, and why.
I think you may be quite right in that regard. If I had the opportunity, I would invite muslim 'leaders' to my interview TV show and sweetly, in the guise of admiring another culture, ask them what they think of stonings and beheadings in SA, Muhammad's marriage to a 9 year old and many other horrors.
I guess where we differ is this: if the pope can thus play an 'endgame' that turns more people away from islam and gets the west to close its doors to muslims, I'll be glad. As you put it 'the reclamation of Europe'. I don't know whether you mean reclamation by the church or simply by people with western values, but the latter would be great.
When the Pope makes an obscure reference to the words of a man regarded incidently as a learned intellectual by some historians, the usual outrage and mayhem ensues in the Islamic world.
When High ranking Islamic clerics make exceedingly hateful comments about Jews, Christians and call for the beheading of the infidels, the MSM hardly report such remarks and when they do a host of progressive liberals excuse them by blaming the usual supects,Israel and America
Why is it then that when we are insulted and threatened in a far more extreme manner, than the Pope's words, we are not in the least outraged. And why does our media refuse to tolerate even the mildest criticisms of Islam?
This year has many shocking events for Islamic. This is just the beginning.
I'm waiting for the next bigger shock when all of infidel political leaders and religious figures to stand unite against Islam the evil ideology.
I am a muslim apostate.
I am very disappointed that anyone in any way would criticize the Pope for what he said.
we should ALL stand up and join him in speaking up against islam. let them claim we are fighting against islam which I really think we should be doing.
We are slowly realizing what dangerous evil we are dealing with. the ice berg is revealing itself beyond the tip.
Also it is a shame shame shame that both iraq and afganistan have sharia law in thier constitution after all this blood shed.
The shot heard 'round the world.
LECTURE OF THE HOLY FATHER
Aula Magna of the University of Regensburg
Tuesday, 12 September 2006
Faith, Reason and the University Memories and Reflections
Let's see.... how many statements have been made by radical extremist Islamo Facists exhorting the complete and utter, vicious and violent annihilation of all unbelievers?
One statement. Just one statement. A very well thought out and precise statement from one of the most educated and thoughtful minds of the past 30 years - Pope Benedict XVI - raised the ire and overreaction of the spoiled and untrained children of Islam.
That one statement, and the degree of world reaction to it demonstrates the power of this Pope. He is no dummy. He stood behind Pope John Paul II and was his intellectual champion for all matters catechistic and theological. Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI is one of, if not the sharpest minds in the Papacy today.
His lecture bears much study before criticism, as it was carefully worded and couched in it's approach.
Regardless of apologies, the message is clear, and has been sent.
Hold the line.
Stay true to advocating peace.
It seems only to incite more violence from the enemy.
This site often points out that Moslem apologists use the "you too" argument. Islam is violent. Ergo, the Moslem says: "Christianity, you too have killed for religion." Why then when the Pope says Catholic theology has to be based on a theology that God wants peace, and not on a theology that God accepts violence would any Moslem say we will kill you for saying that? This is where the Moslem should use a "me too" argument, if he has one. The Moslem should claim he is a religion of peace also. The truth is the Moslem believes that both by putting your faith in allah and Jihad and by killing the infidel the Moslem will get the Moslem peace or allah's peace. The Moslem argues its religion is peaceful. It is only peaceful in this perverted "Islamic" way.
The Islamic theology against murder is illustrative. The Abrahamic philosophy is if you kill a person you are killing a world. Moslems say "me too" to this one except Moslems add if you kill someone it is killing a world unless the person has it coming or the person is committing mischief in the land. Clearly, in adopting this Abrahamic maxim Moslems have something in common with the Abrahamic faith and tradition. But it is a degenerate analogue form of the faith. Let's call it the Ibrahamic faith instead of the Abrahamic. Islam is not an Abrahamic faith, it is an Ibrahamic faith. Let us not confuse it. Infidels of the world unite!
All hope is lost. It seems the Pope has indeed apologized today (Sunday).
Even if the Pope apologizes, Islam remains a violent religion.
The fate of the Weet in the future may be similar to what happenened in India centuries ago:
Timur's official chronicle Tuzk-i-Timuri, boasts of one of Timur's massacres thus: In a short space of time all the people in the fort were put to sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels.'
According to Fox News, the Muslim Brotherhood has accepted his apology.
I ment the West, not Weet.
The Pope has in no way apologised. He said that Paleologos words do not reflect his stance (he didn't say which is is stance on the matter aside from encouraging dialogue, which is the duty of the Catholic church) and that he regrets the reactions.
The Catholic church as I said is subtle. No need to worry, there will be a second round.
Yvette, Vynette, Babette, (whatever) sez:
"... A Pole, an avowed hater of communism, just happens to get elected Pope and voila...riots in Poland...the end of Communism?
Now, please don't call me a communist because I point out a 'truth'
The pope a 'hater?'
And you are (of course not) a commie, feeling all sorry for the demise of communism in Poland?
1) Mekoots's words sounds a lot like the mafia mob telling people "if you do as we say, nobody will get hurt". Sorry Mekoots, the history of the world is full of stories of innocent people getting dragged unfairly. If this happens to muslim people in the USA, then let be it. You should think twice before murdering millions of non-muslims NOWADAYS in YOUR countries. Now you're not in the position to ask "anything".
2) Vynette Holliday likes to think she's this big expert. I am italian and I was forced to follow the election of this new pope. Our tv were 24/7 talking and talking and talking about the reasons and the ways the pope is elected.
It's known to everybody with a grain of intelligence that there are political reasons why a cardinal is elected over the others.
The previous one was strategic in the fight of communism (a mental disease that saw the sufference of a billion people), this one has been chosen also for his stances on islam, since his books are pretty well known and pre-dates his election.
Those are stories that even the village's idiot in italy knows. It's pretty sad that you come here pretending to teach something ground-breaking.
Vynette Holliday: "Now, a different Pope for a different agenda - the reclamation of Europe. A complete about-face and nobody notices?"
So what's the alternative? An Islamic Europe?
Of course, this is all irrelevant. The West will not capitulate. Watch the latest election results in Sweden, Germany, and the US, and you will see how the common people will answer the threats and violence of Islam against our freedoms. The greatest tragedy is Christianity and Judaism, and Buddhist and Hindus, trapped within the borders of Islam. They will be the ones who will continue to shoulder the burden of that violent religion, more a war-cult than a religion of God. Dialogue between religion and war-cults cannot start at the point of a gun, or bomb, or "we love death" chants. Dialogue must begin with equal respect for the other. That means Islamics must respect European culture and civilization, though they may dislike it, while Europeans must protect themselves against this violent cultural invasion, which we will see through the polls that they indeed dislike it. The Pope's message pushed a lever that pried open the illusions of multiculturalism as good economic and social sense in Europe, and in its wake showed how without mutual respect for cultures it cannot work. The result was a predictable violence from the Islamic side, where already churches and Christians had been attacked. A medical nurse in Somalia, a nun, was murdered by two Islamic gunmen at the entrance to the hospital where she worked with women and children. Was this too not predictable, in the same way threats to Pope Benedict's life predictable by this 'religion of peace'? It's all irrelevant, since the actions proved louder than words.
If you want to be relevant, my suggestion only, rather than preaching to those of us who fully understand what just happened, tell it to those who do not. Try your reason on the Islamics, or Islam apologists, to see how far you can go. Contact CAIR and tell them how the violent response to a 700 year old quote could be excused by their actions. The quote said that you cannot use violence over reason to convince a religious argument, but the response was not reasonable but violent. Don't fight us, but fight the hate coming from Islamic voices. Explain that to Muslims, make it your agenda, to all those who still think it a 'religion of peace' and your work will be relevant. We here, as you can see from the above, think your words to us as irrelevant, and to be ignored. Speak up against violence, real violence, and maybe we too might listen.
IrishEi: All is NOT lost. It is an apology that reads very much to me like the "apology" read by Cardinal Bertone yesterday - very ambiguous, and by no means a retraction.
Even if it is a true apology, it means very little as its clearly under severe duress - the threats against the Vatican and the Pope himself being the least among them in Benedict's mind I'm sure mind but the one against the Christians of Iraq and elsewhere no doubt carrying great weight in the minds of the Pope and his adisers.
His actions have still proven his point about Islam and I have to think that he had in mind precisely to unmask the true nature of the Islamist menace before the world, and possibly, as some news sources are suggesting, he may have intended to draw out Turkey to expose its true colours as an encouragement of European caution about its admission to the EU. And there may be other related objectives behind the Pope's words and actions.
Either way, with this "apology", much has been accomplished by this crisis. The world has certainly taken notice of all this, and Catholic opinion, as well as global world opinion, I am convinced, is being galvanized against the Islamic world.
Stayed tuned. There may be more yet to come. And keep you chin up!
IrishEi:
Made a mistake in my above post. "Either way, with this "apology", ..." should have read "Either way, EVEN with this apology ..."
This has been a bad setback for Islam's Jihad against the West. The disproportianate reactions to the Pope's remarks must surely have raised consciousness in the West about the threat posed by Islamofascism.
Hopefully, more high-profile politicians and religious leaders will follow where the Pope has bravely gone.
Whatever excesses can be attributed to the Church was a long damn time ago. Would you please keep you anti-Catholic rants to the present. I bet you think this is all because of the Crusades.
Bravo!
Typical of Islamic extremists, that's why George wants all their heads on a platter!
Lili, you said:
"I guess where we differ is this: if the pope can thus play an 'endgame' that turns more people away from islam and gets the west to close its doors to muslims, I'll be glad. As you put it 'the reclamation of Europe'. I don't know whether you mean reclamation by the church or simply by people with western values, but the latter would be great."
I agree totally with reclaiming Europe and Australia for people with western values. What I am totally against, however, is hypocrisy, subterfuge, manipulation, and hidden agendas.
All the Christian churches, not just the Catholic Church, have promoted wholesale Muslim immigration into Europe and Australia. They have captured the moral high ground, stifled debate, manipulated the media, pressured governments to pass legislation about 'religious hatred', and shown absolutely no Christian charity to anyone prepared to take a stand against them. Opponents have been pilloried in the media and called 'indecent' and 'immoral' and 'unchristian' and 'unAustralian' and many other nasty names.
It's a bit hard to stomach when the prime movers now take a back-flip and don't acknowledge their responsibility for creating the mess in the first place.
Oh...talking about nasty names...when one has been called THE ANTICHRIST, anything else falls a little flat.
oh come on, are we supposed to take every vague internet threat seriously? Honestly, most of the jihad I've seen seems to be web based; small consolation to the victims of real jihad, I imagine.