Anti-dhimmitude in Germany. The idea of needing to censor Mozart may well be a breaking point in German tolerance of the creeping Islamicization of their country. From Reuters:
BERLIN (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans on Wednesday not to bow to fears of Islamic violence after a Berlin opera house canceled a Mozart work over concerns some scenes could enrage Muslims and pose a security risk.
"I think the cancellation was a mistake. I think self-censorship does not help us against people who want to practice violence in the name of Islam," she told reporters. "It makes no sense to retreat."
Merkel's comments, which echoed those of other senior German politicians, fueled a row over the cancellation of Mozart's "Idomeneo" which overshadowed a government-sponsored conference to promote dialogue with the country's 3.2 million Muslims.
Berlin's Deutsche Oper said on Monday it had pulled performances of the opera, which shows the severed heads of the Prophet Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, after police warned that it could pose an "incalculable" security risk.
Why did Hizballah News Agency, aka Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?
The row comes two weeks after Pope Benedict enraged some Muslims by quoting from a medieval text linking the spread of the Islamic faith to violence. Last year's publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a Danish newspaper triggered violent Muslim protests.
Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told reporters after the conference the participants were united in their call for the opera to restart performances of "Idomeneo."
"I am glad that we all agreed we would like the production to resume," Schaeuble, who has no authority over the opera house, told reporters after the conference. "To send a signal, we could all go to the performance together," he said.
Maybe Mo is always called "the prophet Mohammed" to distinguish him from other significant and important people names Mohammed, like say Mohammed Atta. There was only one Jesus Christ, and one Buddha, but the Mohammeds are numbered with the sands of trackless Araby.
Chancellor Merkel, I beg you and Germany's senior officials to please sit our American leaders down, and lecture them on how not to be afraid of Muslim Outrage. I commend thee.
When Political Correctness first became the expected among the minions, there were many who opposed the appeasment of everyone. Now our cultures have lead right into the stradegy of Islam. "Hey ! That offends me! You better not say that! I'll chop off your head! No one can 'boo' about our so holy prophet mohamed the moon god. As a matter of fact, all your governments better bow to our laws and beliefs, otherwise we devil worshipers will be offended and chop your head off."
Well, you dirty rats, F*** mohammed! & F*** you!
Bravo, Merkel. I have been noticing increasing signs of spine lately in many leaders and opinion makers. I've long maintained that criticism is the most effective weapon against Islam. Pity that the Bush administration has not yet understood this. They are still clinging to an illusion of Islam.
War emboldens the Jihadis, and casualties generate new justifications for their violence. We are not willing, and should not be willing, to inflict such massive losses as to make whole nations turn away from Islam. It is just not necessary. There is a reason why Islamic religious authorities are so hypersensitive. They know criticism will drain their power away, that Islam requires a particular worldview, and it is incompatible with skepticism and critical thought. That is not to say we can totally demilitarize the conflict; Israel, for instance, will long have to hit back and hit back hard. But the light at the end of the tunnel is not killing more Jihadis than the Madrassas churn out, but rather making Muslims embarassed of Islam. It will be easy, all we have to do is be honest.
Good for Merkel. We need to see more statements like this from our leaders who are, after all, supposed to represent us and uphold basic rights and freedoms.
Perhaps a risk, but we can estimate that if we don't defend freedom of expression now, the risk will be much greater later on. Let's deal with a manageable problem now so that we don't leave our children and grandchildren with an unmanageable one. Islam must be criticized as much as possible, continuously, until such criticism becomes commonplace, just as criticism of other religions and political ideologies are commonplace.
Why did Hizballah News Agency, aka Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?
Truthful honorifics for him are- "the pervert prophet Muhammad" and the "false prophet Muhammad"
Intereting. I hope Europe is finally waking up and I think the German people have what it takes to save themselves from a muslim invasion.
Good to hear on the heels of the news of Turkey's military saying it will act to prevent Turkey from ever slipping into the hands of islamists. Come on! The possibility that another islamist/terrorist state election could happen in Turke and possibly even Europe should exclude Turkey from consideration EC membership.
Imagine if a southern US state decided it might want to bring slavery back, something so backwards and considered a human rights violation wouldn't be allowed.
Good luck then Europe. Otherwise you'll all have to move into the US because people wont ever let and islamic state happen here.
My favorite is Mohammed Ali. I'm sorry Tyson did not see fit to change his name post-conversion to Mohammed-Mike. Sorta' like an urban form of Billy-Bob.
Merkel might be waking up, but the E.U. certainly is not and when things get embarrassing they tend to stick there head in the sand and hope that it goes away this has been happening in the Capital of the E.U. while every one has been distracted over whether Mozart music will offend mulims or not, but its carbecue time again here in Europe. Ramadan has started, and this time it is not in Paris, but in Brussels. There have been three nights of rioting, they have even tried to torch a hospital. There excuse this time, is that they are concerned over the recent death in prison of a gentleman of North African decent who was given a sedative and died, but that was over a week ago. The riots started at the beginning of Ramadan, now that seem funny. Seeing as most of these people of the religion of peace don't work, then what has most likely been happening is that they sleep all day trying to avoid the hunger pains, and then feast and riot all night. We have had the usual drivel from the Mayor, we will talk but if it doesn't stop we might even be so bold as to take away their molotov cocktail. I have been watching the Belgium news all week, and there has not been so much as a squeak.
I truly hope no one here believes that bullshit about the Turkish military defending the country from Islam.
On the other hand in regards to German Chancellor Merkel, God bless her, this is exactly what we need is more world leaders with balls. Ironically she obviously doesn't literally have them, but she does have more courage than most of our world leaders combined.
We need the Merkels, and Howard's of the world to step up and tell these idiots in Washington, Moscow, London and Paris to wake up and find a gonad.
President Musharraf yesterday stated in an interview that Pakistan is basically playing along with the US as it feels threatened to. Does this not tell you that they are only fainting help, when in fact these guys are fuelling the fire still.
We need to pull out of the mid east, and start a wall of defense in Europe for starters. Kick out every single Muslim who does not renounce his face and send them packing. Any attacks on western soil after that will be met with clear and direct consequences. No attempts should be made to occupy or pacify a beast that can't be tamed, just kill and step back. Sooner or later they'll get it, and say "leave those guys alone it's not worth it."
Unfortunately we don't have a will to live or fight anymore, and this is nothing but pipe dream.
Niv
"Why did...Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?"
-Marisol
Good question.
These incremental capitulations to Muslim demands will only make them bolder. Today Mozart, tomorrow, they will find crosses on church steeples offensive, next week Christmas is cancelled.
From the previous article: "It caused outrage at the premiere in 2003. The opera company said it was cancelling plans to revive the show next month after advice from security authorities in Berlin that the performances posed an "incalculable" security risk."
Apparently there were no protests that prompted the cancellation. This is what I call pre-emptive cowardice. The mere possibility that some Muslims will react is enough to cause some "security expert" to wet his/her pants.
"Why did Hizballah News Agency, aka Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?"
I suppose it's because if every other westerner you met went by the name of Jesus, you'd probably have to refer to the Lord Jesus for anyone to know who you were talking about.
Kudos to the German Chancellor.
Mozart rules - Mohammed drools.
Merkel, Howard and don't forget Rasmussen of Denmark. Maybe these three will be the Charles Martel, Don John of Austria and King John Sobieski of our time. I also have high hopes for the new Swedish PM !
From SPIEGEL ONLINE:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,439583,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,439642,00.html
For Hugh:
Interview with the chinless one from Syria:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,438804,00.html
And Zbigny Breszcinsky uses the past to explain the future, as always:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,436607,00.html
sheik yer'mami-
Assad jr. is pathetic. There's a joke in Syria.
Syria is like the movie The Godfather except that when Don Corleone dies instead of Michael Corleone taking over, we got Fredo.
PAS
Why, what's with Sweden's new PM?
He's a conservative isn't he ? The leftwing PC dhimminis were voted out.
In Sweden, are Conservatives anything like those in, say, UK? I would have thought they are as Left wing as in Canada.
Why did Hizballah News Agency, aka Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?
That's easy-according to the wacky world of Islam he came before Christ, Buddha, the dinosaurs and the Big Bang. Besides, how could Christ and Buddha can even compare to the great Mo? A megalomaniac like this should stand apart and alone from all these other lesser beings,that's why he gets an honorific title.
It's not the one I'd pick,though.
Honorific title - Ole Adolph was Der Fuhrer. Boris and Natasha had Fearless Leader.
So,Mohammed was a prophet, and what did he prophesize?
From the Prophet Pelayo: I see a long struggle that will last for one hundred years. Unless, we start the bombing tomorrow. It's like pulling a Band-Aid off a hairy arm. Quick is best.
Archimedes wrote: "Perhaps a risk, but we can estimate that if we don't defend freedom of expression now, the risk will be much greater later on."
How true.
In traditional Islamic cultures, there is no freedom of expression or freedom of speech.
This one of the most critical reasons that most of the citizens of the free world wouldn't fathom immigrating to Muslim countries.
Intelligence is not cultivated in socities where there is total submission to a repressive religion.
This is a fact.
Sadly, European Muslim are attempting to rid Christianity out of mainstream European culture.
Protesting Christmas celebrations and demanding the name change to "winter celebrations", forbiding references to Christianity in the European constitution, banning cartoons that depict Muhammad, and demanding the Pope gives an apology for his free speech comments about the truth of Islam are just a few notable examples.
I may be ever so slightly ignorant about Mozart's 'Idomeneo, Re di Creta' so could somebody please tell me why any production of this, admittedly outstanding, opera would need to feature the severed heads of The Son of God, The Buddha and the devil's idiot prophet mohammed, particularly given that this opera is set in a time before the emergence of any of the religions which these aforenamed beings could be said to represent.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this particular production is nothing more than an attempt to insult the compassionate religions of this world and that the producers have included the heathen, so called prophet, of islam in the mistaken belief that he, too, represents a compassionate religion. Granted that we must defend freedom of expression but let us not get too carried away by this story. This entire production strikes me as being suspect in its motives, at best, and quite likely a deliberate attempt to offend the sensibilities of our free peoples simply for the shock value, at worst.
We should be more, much more, insulted by the presence of the severed head of the devil's spawn called mohammed alongside those of our Risen Lord and The Buddha than we should be by the cancelling of this production for in placing the evil one's head together with Our Lord and The Buddha some sort of message of equivalence is all too obviously being sent out. That is the very sort of message that we have to be on our guard against and, I would have thought, the very sort of message that this site exists to counteract.
There is, obviously, no equivalence, but, none-the-less, it is probably being made in the eyes of the producers and they may hope to convince a gullible and disarmed public of such an equivalence (maybe we should also be asking who financed this production - I feel that the answer might be very revealing indeed). Perhaps we should be thankful for the fact that this production has been cancelled whilst, at the same time, being disturbed that it has been cancelled for all the wrong reasons, indeed, the most most wrong of all reasons - the fear of the barbarian moslem horde and of what it may do if we civilised people exercise our rights of free speech and freedom of artistic expression in our own countries.
Dominic.
It's probably true that the honourific is used for the purposes of identification, but inherently it still comprises a form of integral acceptance and dhimmitude. I never write it in that way: I always use "Mohammed" alone, or "Mohammed of Medina" or "the islamic Mohammed", or the "Quranic Mo", or, if sufficiently insulted and harassed, "the madman Mohammed".
Any of the above would be fine, in my opinion.
Of course, my honorific is entirely descriptive.
Prophet Geoff
The chinless one from Syria said:
...Think of the war against terrorism. In my view, In my view, Washington's approach can be compared to a doctor constantly banging away at a tumor instead of removing it surgically...
He is right on that one.
The tumor of Islam has to be removed surgically!
Only then will this planet be free from Islamic terrorism.
Dominic:
I agree. The opera should run but only the severed head of Mohammed should appear in the scene.
Although Ms. Merkel was wrong about Guantanamo Bay, she IS right here. Kudos!
And, viva Mozart!
Briars/
I hadn't thought of that solution. Interesting! Given the plot it's even apposite, neatly so, given the fact that Idomeneo should have sacrificed his son to a false and heartless god when first alighting on the strand of his own country, and that he made a vow devoid of compassion or reason.
Dominic.
I am a Muslim and a learned person of the law. I hereby issue a Fatwa: The opera must go on! In any civilized society the marketplace of ideas and speech is the paramount right and supersedes all other rights, EVEN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. This business of political correctness is hogwash! The proposal that any group can box the rest of society in because they will be offended or hurt by speech is nonsense! I have worked for one of the so called Muslim civil rights organization in the U.S. and they claim to speak for all Muslims. Well they do not speak for me. Many of these groups are made up of primarily Middle Eastern Arab Muslims - I have spoken to Muslims from Asian countries and many of them find the Arab "spin" on Islamic Law and Culture to be slanted - It is all about the "Palestinians" - For God's sake the World does not revolve around that little "patch" of land in the Middle east - There are other issues that are more important to Muslims - How about "Modernization" of Islam - Bring it out of the Middle Ages. Many Muslims portray themselves as "Victims" and play the race card when someone offends them. Hell, I get offended just about every week, so - I don't threaten violence, I use SPEECH!!! It is all about the Speech, not the OFFENSE!! Most first and second generation Muslims in the Mosque where I pray have no idea what the First Amendment is about - The Imam at my Mosque knows as much about the First Amendment as a dog knows about its father. I am a Muslim but I am FIRST, an opera lover. So in America I can enter the stage as King Idomeneo! Up with the curtain! Hand me the sword! I will slice off the heads of Poseidon, Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad and deliver them in a bag singing “Radunate I Troiani Quando Avran Fine Omai” after which I will head to Friday Prayer and perform the waddu, then pray to Allah as a free man and not intimidated by anyone.– ONLY IN AMERICA MY FRIENDS!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
BanuQaynuqa/
Of course. But, if I may ask, why are you a moslem if you believe that which you have posted above?
Perhaps you are merely one of the Furies sent to torment us as they did Elettra!
Dominic.
I really don't think the "Herms" can handle a backed up sewer.
God willing, of course.
BanuQaynuqa---
Its been a long, long time since I read Goethe's Faust. I may have this wrong...
Are you a Muslim Faust? Didn't Faust enter into a pact with the Devil for Life's Liberties?
Hugh, pounce on me and set me straight...you have, indeed, the better 'little grey cells'.
Dear Domonic
I am a Muslim and I believe in free speech and that is not at all inconsistent with Islam. Free speech includes prose, poetry, drama, essays, satire, hyperbole, sonets, etc. . .
There can be nothing sacrosanct in freedom of expression - there can be disagreement - there can be offense and even bad taste - but the right to speak cannot be abridged by government or church nor can free speech become the hostage of those in Islam who threaten violence or death because they find it offensive. Man has lived in rougher times than today - why must everyone in the World walk on egg shells so as to not offend one group or another - if they do not like it they do not have to go to see the opera but they cannot and do not have any right to force others to forego it.
You know I have read many books and studied a lot of literture over my lifetime and this opera was written a long time ago, as was many other GREAT works of Western Civilization.
You see I can live with satire, drama, and even offense against my religion, what I cannot live with is my religion or any other religion undertaking a cultural offensive against other groups to dominate and direct their thoughts and expressions.
No religion should dominate the World. There must be a balance of thought and culture. Even though I am Muslim I do not believe my religion should overtake the world and dominate it; if that were to happen then I would renounce it as it would result most liekly in a facist state.
Meanwhile, Christianity has no place on American TV.
http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060923/NEWS06/609230351/1023
We can't risk offending some people -- you know who.
Dear Sir
I am NOT a Muslim Faust as you portend. Such a conjuction would have Wolfgang Johann Wolfgang Goethe crawling in his grave! In any event, Faust eventually ended up in heaven, not hell so your point is void.
I was born in the West. I have lived in the West. I was educated in the West I will die in the West.
I have an interesting observation: All Muslims who I have as friends that were raised in the U.S. understand the essence of free speech. Some who who I know and are immigrants from the Middle east have no clue. I will make a pun on words or make a satirical comment - there is no response, there is nothing! The reason is, of course, their minds have not been set free to push the envelope of knowledge and experience and maximize the human experience.
Faust was produced by Western Civilization, not the Ottoman Empire. Western civiliation has flourished and produced great works of art and literature. Unfortunately the Ottman Empire reached its zenith and then "flopped" Although I donot agree with everything Israel does, look at what the Jews have achieved as a free republic. Look at the surrounding islamic countries: No freedom, No economic growth, Cult of the individual (Saddam, Faisal, Saud, etc.)Photos of dictators everywhere - not a lot different form Kim Il Jong. I have seen pictures of buses in Syria that look like fugitives from a junk yard. The only real reason the U.S. cares about the Middle East is because of oil. It is a sad fact but a fact never the less. I don't see the U.S. doing regime changes in Burma?
Islam must modernize if it is to survive.
By the way if you all must know why I am such a liberal Muslim I will tell you why, because I am a lawyer and a staunch supporter of the Rule of Law and human rights. Over the past couple of years I watched those cruel Muslim Bastards decapitate innocent human beings and for what? Then I saw the photos of those innocent indonesian school girls who were decapitated by a mob of Radical Muslim men. It is a photo that I shall never foget. I pray five times a day and in each prayer I pray for those girls and their families. VIOLENCE IS NOT THE ANSWER!!
BanuQaynuqa,
You come across as a taq'qiya artist, trying to legitimize the cult founded by a paedophile looter.
Well, this topic was discussed previously below. JanuaryMan is right when he says that this is not about censoring Mozart. Mozart did not write Idomeneo with the severed heads of anyone, let alone those of Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, and Poseiden. No, this is just one hack director's grotesque staging in which he re-makes Mozart to whatever he wants.
Having said that, those who are insisting that 'the show must go on', especially in view of Islamist threats of violence against it, are correct unless the production is being ended because no one cares to sit through it any more.
There are better places to take a stand.
It is heartening though to see some spine from a current european leader since Spain and Italy regressed.
"By the way if you all must know why I am such a liberal Muslim I will tell you why, because I am a lawyer and a staunch supporter of the Rule of Law and human rights." -- BanuQaynuqa
Sounds great but have you then not created your own private Islam if you are putting secular man-made law above Allah's law?
BanuQaynuqa: Welcome to dhimmiwatch.
After reading the thread that you posted above, you don't seem like a Muslim in terms of your beliefs and values.
I bet that you could even be killed as an apostate in several Muslim countries for promoting your beliefs in a public manner.
Accused of becoming a traitor and described as "corrupted by the west" your Muslim brothers and sisters would probably ask you to become a "true Muslim" and renounce your liberal views.
"Why did...Reuters, only give Muhammad an honorific title?"
I'AM INSULTED. And I demand an apolology. Why they gave him a honnoric title at all. Since Iam a christian, I dont accept any other profet from God beside those in the holy Bible. But dont worry guys from reuters. Insult will not result in your behedings and mass burning of leftist (secular) property. On the contrary. I would like to say "forgive them cos they dont know what they r doing". But somehow Iam not so conviced in their ignorance.
Anti-dhimmitude in Germany ?
Unfortunately I don't think so at all. I feel disgusted by this opera-affair... though it might perhaps be an eye-opener for some normal folks. The politicians - including Angie Merkel - are the same dhimmis they have been before and the same in Germany like everywhere. Let me explain, why.
Last night I watched a TV-interview with opera director Kirsten Harms who seemed to be an intelligent, likable and honest person. An artist - not a politician, and now pushed in the role of a scapegoat by dhimmis largely more cowardly and mendacious than her. She told she has been warned intensively by security authorities that her staff and audience would be in big danger, if Idomeneo would be performed. Even the Interior Minister of the state of Berlin phoned her personally to confirm that the threat was really to be taken very serious.
There was no offer "We will send you security staff and protect you". There was only the advice to cancel the performance.
What should she have done? What would any of you have done? What would have happened to her if some terrorists would have blown up the opera house and killed people? Politicians would have accused her: "We have warned her intensively but she perferred to be stubborn". She would have felt like a murderer for all her life....
And now all the dhimmi-press and dhimmi-politicians, who probably sowehow feel that they themselves behave as pathetic cowards all the time, blame an unpolitical opera director of all people for being a dhimmi. It's really disgusting. Remember: There was no Muslim threat! Muslims do not visit opera houses, they didn't know anything of the performance. It was just a fine opportunity to play the brave anti-dhimmi role without attacking any Muslim.
It seems to me, Ms. Harms has destroyed the illusion of "peaceful Islam" our politicians want to indoctrinate us with. They try to paint her as a hysterical islamophobe. Interior minister Wolfgang Schäuble who is currently attending Germany's first Islamic conference (btw: why on earth do we need something like that?) told us a few days ago:
Islam brings to us what many Germans may have lost. The importance of the family, respect for the elderly, pride of the own history, culture, religion, tradition and the daily faithful life....
....many Muslim undergo a traumatic experience, for their religion, their culture, their way of life is often mistakenly put under a general suspicion , which certainly was or still is one of the evil purposes of the terrorists....
Now he has stated smirkingly on TV that he and all Muslims attending the Islamic conference will visit Idomeneo if it is performed.
The message: Islam is peace and Ms. Harms is a hysterical idiot. All of you folks who think we are a country of cowardly dhimmis: Look at her! SHE IS THE DHIMMI. WE ARE NOT.
Merkel herself stated about 3 weeks ago:
"Media should consider the effects their reporting causes abroad. In times of international terrorism the persons responsible must keep in mind that all what is written, can be read in the Middle East within seconds.
Journalists should therefore ask themselves, whether they can write only according to the wants of the local people. It's getting more and more important to know and to respect other cultures..."
A classical call for self-censorship to the media!
I voted for her. She's of course much better than Schröder was. But anti-Dhimmitude?
No. Not at all.
Only a big show "Islam is peace and noone should be afraid of it" - and a witchhunt against a harmless scapegoat.
What with Merkel, Pope Benedict, the Australian Bishop (I forget his name sorry), are we finally seeing the emergence of a new wave of Western leaders, ready and willing to face down the RoP? It's long overdue. Cometh the hour, cometh the men (and women). Like Churchill stepping up to the plate against Hitler, Im feeling more optimistic by the day. The backlash has begun! And not a moment too soon
First thing, welcome to BanaQaynuka. I hope that what you write is sincere. The future ahead for Islam requires reform.
Second, I like Angela Merkel because on a few occasions she has been willing to stand up and state what it is necessary to state. The lady has not been a leader for very long and she has to reverse the damage that was done prior to her election as Chancellor. It is Angela Merkel who has stated that the Germans should be allowed to disarm Hezbollah but the weak UN under Koffi Anan has not given the UN soldiers the right to do anything other than stare at Hezbollah as they rearm.
Also, Angela Merkel has been one of the few European politicians who has come out in support of Pope Benedict XVI and she is not a Catholic. This to me is just another reason to like her.
The name of the Australian Cardinal who spoke out is Cardinal George Pell, the Archbishop of Sydney. We are all still cheering because he gave a theological explanation to the Pope's speech. My new Parish Priest also spoke out in his own way, pointing to some of the hidden things in the speech and how it was directed at us, not Islam.
Thanks for that, Cardinal Pell. Heard a few more no-nonsense quotes from Down Under recently - along the lines of, 'if you don't like women's rights, the democratic process and the rule of law, well then you can bugger off'. Good old Aussie spirit shining through the multicultural sewage
Dear Jonathan
If they wish to kill me then I will sing Verdi's La Traviata as they pull the knife across my throat.
Dear arjun.sevak
You are entitled to your opinion and in America you can express it without harassment. Please let's here more as that is what this discussion board is about.
As a Muslim Islamic law is not the highest law. The "natural law" is the highest law. Religion is a "belief system" based upon faith in a higher power. The "natural law" is the law that gives us liberty, freedom, dignity, respect, and flows from the natural order of the universe and is the highest and above all else.
Islam is not, and can not, be above the natual law nor can any other religion or belief system because then it places man's beliefs above the natural order. Pope Urban VIII said the world was flat, the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the 17th century astronomer and physicist Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) for his discovery it was round. The Catholic Church's findings were based upon religous belief; Gaileo's observations were based upon the "natural law" So you see the natural law trumps religion. This applies to Christianity, Hindu, Judaism, etc.
I will debate this fact with any Muslim, imam, holy man or anyone else. If Muslims believe the Quran is a tool to subjugate their fellow human beings i.e. believers and non-believers, Calphate, off with their heads and etc. . . they are WRONG! The Quran's orginal meaning has been corruppted by Jihad Extremists. Thye have take words from Islam which have meant peace, inner struggle, etc. and made them blood-thirty cries for the liberation of Palestine and destruction of the Jews.
A message to those who have defamed Islam - Get a life and stop sending innocent young boys to their deaths strapped with bombs or driving aiplanes into buildings - you are destroying our religion. And if you don't like the opera then stay home -
To respond to all who have criticized the producer of this opera. There are many interpretations of artistic expression in music, opera, drama and other fine arts - that is the essence of freedom of expression. You cannot call someone an idiot for adding the beheadings of the founders of the great religions.
Lets see hum - - How about Faust It was written one way and then again written another way i.e. Dr. Faustes (Marlow) So What bot are classic - Shall we execute Marlow or cut his head off because he had a different intepretation.
You know some day someone will discover how to look back through time mabe not travel physically but like through a lens and see what really happened in history - I would expect the religious zelouts out there both Islamic and Christian would be really suprised to see what really was written and what really was truely said - I'll bet it will be a shocker!
This is farcical. An avant-garde director changes Mozart's opera to use Buddha, Mohammed and Christ as stage props in his version of Mozart's opera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idomeneo#2006_controversy
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=14509
Then they get cold feet and the German Govt looks stupid in Berlin - one of the largest Turkish cities in the world.
So they use the fact that the centre of the scandal is the Berlin Senator Koerting and that Merkel's Party, the CDU just lost the election for Mayor of Berlin to the SPD - the same party as Koerting.
It provides a useful background to a Govt Conference with various Muslim groups to see which umbrella organisation should be the official Govt liaison to Islam - maybe it will be the one backed by the Turkish Govt.
This is internal politics and you might be better watching the 3 days of rioting in Brussels with violent Muslim (Moroccan) gangs burning cars near the Eurostar station
Pope Urban VIII said the world was flat, the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the 17th century astronomer and physicist Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) for his discovery it was round. The Catholic Church's findings were based upon religous belief;
Yes but they were hooked on the Greek Ptolemy and his Almagest and geocentric view which Copernicus challenged with his heliocentric view, and they did not see the world as flat but spherical...........Galileo noted the changing phases of Venus as being incompatible with Ptolemy's theory..............
Dear Voyager
Thank you for your clarification.
I am enjoying this board very much. I am a Muslim man who likes the annonyminity of this message board. I can post what I think, feel, and believe and can do this without worrying if there will be a bomb under the car seat tomorrow morning when I start my car. Freedom to think is something to be relished!
Most people and newspapers in Germany criticize the cancellation of this Mozart opera, incl. representatives of Muslim organizations.
Now it seems that the cancellation will be revoked and this opera will be shown after all.
What a great and shrewd publicity stunt the opera house made by first announcing the cancellation. Without this fuss about cancellation, nobody would care to see this silly artsy-fartsy opera. Now it is a must-see to show that we do not surrender to "Islamofascism."
I think I am in a very small minority who approved of the cancellation. That opera is an insult to other religions (since it also shows the severed heads of Jesus and Buddha) as well and to Mozart, the composer, himself.
Anyway, what benefit would we get if we had this opera? It seems the only reason to defend this stupid opera is to avoid giving the impression of appeasement to the Islamofascists. That's not enough for me.
My analogy: People can call me coward all day, but I don't get intimidated. I am not doing something I don't want to do just to prove to someone that I am not a coward. Well, I did that in kindergarten and elementary school, but now I am more confident and don't feel I have to prove anything to anyone. Jesus, what a hero I am. :-)
Is this opera helping us? No, I think this opera would only strengthen Islamofasicsm since it would help their propaganda. To win the war on terrorism, we need to have moderate Muslims on our side, so that they don't support the terrorists, but give us information about them. And we want the moderate Muslims to win over their autocratic governments and fundamentalist groups in the Arab world. This opera, however, alienates the moderate Muslims and helps the fundamentalists.
I think we should criticize the Arab world all day on how they treat women, violate human rights, lack democracy, have too much corruption, etc etc. And we should lecture them all day that they should make peace with Israel, that they should spend their money education rather than military, that they should save Darfur, that they need economic reforms etc etc. Since nobody likes to be attacked, criticized and lectured on every issue, we should avoid making fun of their Prophet of defaming their Prophet. Rather we should focus on the topics that matter. That's not appeasement, but about focusing on what is important and it is about setting priorities.
Though, as I said: I am in the minority on this one. Most Germans criticized the cancellation of the opera. It was the opera house who decided to cancel the show. Not the federal or the city government. If (!) the government had told the opera show to cancel the show, then I would be critical and complain about strangeling free speech and about unacceptable government intervention into the arts. But that was not the case.
Let's not forget that Muslims are not the only religious group who dislikes controversial art:
This is from Oct 23, 1998: "Last May, William Donohue, the ever-vigilant president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, raised quite a ruckus about the fact that Corpus Christi, Terrence McNally's play-in-progress, featured a gay, Christ-like protagonist who has sex, off-stage, with his male disciples. Donohue, who has a gift for strained analogies that rivals McNally's own, has called the play "hate speech," "bigotry," and of course "blasphemy." He has argued that a similar depiction of a black or Jewish religious figure would be roundly condemned. Only Catholics and their beliefs, Donohue insists, are held up to such ridicule."
Long article here:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n18_v125/ai_21273530
Yeah, yeah, this only happens to Catholics.... Right! And some Jews say those kind of attacks only happen to Jews. And some Muslims say those things only happen to Muslims
The play was then shown after all. And probably the Idomeneo opera will be shown as well soon. They certainly got a lot of publicity. More than this opera house would usually get. Usually hardly anybody would be interested in that opera, but now it is the talk of the town.
"On May 23, 1998, the New York Times announced that the Manhattan Theatre Club would be canceling its scheduled production of playwright Terrence McNally's newest play, Corpus Christi, due to bomb and death threats made against the theatre, its personnel, and the playwright. The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights disavowed responsibility for the threats but did publicly applaud the decision, calling the play "blasphemous." A week later, after counter-demonstrations by a roster of well-known contemporary playwrights, the play was reinstated at MTC. Although the Catholic League's president had not read the play, reports claiming that it depicted a gay Jesus-like figure who has sex with his apostles was enough to ignite a series of events that captured the attention of New Yorkers, theatre artists and others, perhaps to a greater extent than McNally's play itself. On opening night, two separate demonstrations took place concurrently on opposite ends of the block outside the theater."
http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/theatre_journal/v051/51.2pr_mcnally.html
The same play was shown in Germany, but then cancelled after death threats and bomb threats.
BanuQaynuqa - do what you can. The world needs more people like you.
I don't like taking Mozart's opera and re-arranging it for a lesser talent's personal whim. It is a cost-free exercise in civic pride for German elites - then again the Oper is taxpayer-funded anyway.
Once upon a time in 1989 some very odd persons burned a copy of a book by Salman Rushdie called "Satanic Verses". this made me go to W. H, Smith and buy a hardback copy for £20 before it was withdrawn in fear.
I read it, found it turgid and ever since want to find someone to reimburse my £20 spent on a book I would never have bought if it had not been burned. Now I know what the real "Satanic Verses" are.........I just find this reflex not always satisfactory.
The point is this situation in Berlin was manufactured by an SPD Senator - noone else. The LKA and LVS agencies had no evidence of any material threat to this opera............the funny thing is that the loony Islamists would probably object to the music itself rather than merely a depiction of Mohammed.
This is a typical piece of German Dorfpolitik
Dear A_Plague_on_Both_Houses
I have done what I can to show the path to enlightenment to my brothers and sisters. It is clear these conflicts belong in the marketplace of ideas, not at the end of a knife. Many Muslims do not believe Islam needs to be modernized - they say modernization will change the core beliefs of Islam - maybe woman will not need to wear a burka - maybe their will be more suitable punishments for transgressions of Islamic Law - instead of cutting off hands or being stoned ot death. The imams and mullahs have preached fear that Islam must stay the same. IT CANNOT STAY THE SAME - Modern Political Theory was developed in the 17th-18th Centuries long after the founding of Islam. Islam is a theocracy and the Caliphe is supreme and run under The doctrine of Vellayat faghieh (the rule of the jurist) The administration of government and public policy is autocratic, arbitrary and capricious; very much like the rule of an emporer or king.
Under liberal political theory modern day republics and governments derive their powers from the people, not the bible or the koran.
The power comes from the consent of the governed. Governments under constitutions cannot abrided the rights of its people. the people can critcize the government and can advocate its change or even its overthrow and there are no consequences to the citizen. Citizenship in this form of government cannot be severed by the government as the government's power is derived from the citizen and not the other way.
The only way that Islam can succeed in imposing itself is to make the Koran into the constitution itself; I know Muslims who want to do just that. It is too late; people are smarter and brighter than ever. Kings, Queens, Emporers and ditators in most of the world have been eliminated. There would have to be a world war in order to sujugate the rest of the world to Islam. It will never happen.
Dear Americaningermany,
you can bet your life you wont, it is not even on the news in England, and I think that there is only one newspaper in Belgium that is carrying the story the Standard. Her is the link http://www.brusselsjournal.com/ Do not be surprised. All the countries realise by now how dangerous the situation is especially after the French riots the cartoons and now the Pope. They know that they will have to tackle the problem sometime they just don't want it on there watch. What I think that they are trying to do is, or this is more correct there excuse for doing nothing is that if we starve it of publicity it will die a natural death. They are of cause wrong we have been seeing a steady escalation of conflicts with Islam and the time interval between them shortening, when these conflict become continuous, that will be the time when the balloon goes up, there and there is a sea change in the attitudes of Governments of Europe, it is very slow at the moment but it is definitely there, and accelerating, nearly all Governments in Europe that have had Elections over the last couple of years have swung to the right of the political spectrum. All the latest polls from the different country have also shown that that more and more votes are getting more and more fed up with the muslim complaining all the time. Belgium goes to the polls in a few days for the Municipal elections and Vlaams Belang the right wing anti immigration party have a good chance of wining somewhere in the region of 38% of the votes there might be a chance of them gaining power. The results from Antwerp will be the deciding factor. Things are changing very quickly, we live in dangerous time, so look after yourself and keep your kids safe.
Deep regards
BanuQaynuqa
If all, or even most, Muslims were like you, not just privately, but publicly, then we Infidels wouldn't have any problems with Muslims.
Nothing personal, but either alexon or Arjun Sevak above are correct: if you are being deceptive, as many Muslims do given an Infidel audience, you are practicing taqiyya; OTOH, if you are being genuine, you are either inventing your own version of Islam, or just a Muslim in name only. I'm assuming here that it's the latter categories.
Your opinion above that no religion should dominate the others is something that by and large, all religions today follow - excepting Islam. So if you are trying to send such a message, it should be sent to the ummah on an Islamic blog.
Also your statement
doesn't factor in demographic conquest. Nor does it factor in dawa, as is being done in, say, US prisons, college campii, or elsewhere.There has been unprecedented influxes of Muslims into the West, as well as major population growths elsewhere: in Malaysia, Muslims were once a 40% plurality in the population; now they are a majority. Once Muslims become a majority, they have the influence to vote in Islamic parties that can then legislatively introduce Shariah law, and the other Islamic beauties that go with it. Today, the way it's philosophically understood, Democracy isn't just majority rule; it also involves respecting the rights of minorities, regardless of whether they are racial, ethnic, religious, gender or other categorizations of minorities. However, with Muslims, democracy is just majority rule, and if a society is majority Muslim, Shariah is almost automatic. (Only exceptions I can think of are the ex Soviet republics, which are still transitioning from Communism to an independent identity. Given that in most cases, that independent identity will be ethnically Turkic or Farsi, I don't see them not Islamizing in the long run).
You should explore sites like faithfreedom.org and islam-watch.com, and see for yourself what genuine Islam is all about. Once you do, act on the sound conclusions you spell out above, and jettison Islam. Unlike other religions - Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, et al, Islam is not a religion for personal spiritual pursuits; it's an oversized cult with unrivalled geopolitical ambitions, coupled with unmatched hatred of those that aren't its members. There are a lot of good people who were once Muslims, but after learning what a heinous cult it is, they expelled it from their souls. You too seem to know better - might as well act on that.
BanuQaynuqa - do you still call yourself 'Muslim'?
Clarification:
Kirstin Harms is the present director (as of September 2005) of the opera house in question.
From the other thread on this topic, the director who created this severed heads version of Idomeneo is named Neuenfels, the FORMER director.
Point:
"You cannot call someone an idiot for adding the beheadings of the founders of the great religions". -- BanuQaynuqa
Counterpoint:
Why not? This is part and parcel of the freedom you otherwise seem to support so wholeheartedly. Artists are not beyond criticism, nor should they be. It's all part of a healthy exchange of views. Death threats, on the other hand, are not part of a healthy exchange. If only the Islamists hurled insults instead of bombs....
Dear Axelon
Great point! Keep the discussion going.
BanyQaynuqa:
Murder is against the law in the United States and carries the death penalty. Trust me, you would NEVER get away with beheading anyone publicly over here.
Obviously, chump, you've never set foot in the place, or you would know that.
It's a good thing telling lies to non-Muslims isn't counter to Islamic law or you might find yourself going to Islamic hell in a flash--joining Mozart's other operatic hero, Don GIovanni down there.
Why aren't people in Brussels fighting back? How can a so-called "minority" hold the vast majority in paralyzed fear?
Dear Americaningermany,
The reason I am sure is the Belgium Municipal elections in just over a weeks time. The Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) has been around for about 20 years steadily gaining support. They had to change there name last year from the Vlaams Blok ( Flemish Block) because they were banned, two of the leaders were brought to court, touches of the BNP. I think that they are now the largest party in Flanders at this moment. They have never once been in a coalition because all the other parties have refused to go into a coalition with them, because they are so called racists. There has been a pop concert organised against them paid for with Lotto money. That show you how desperate the Belgium political elite are. Fortunately they have a leadership that is articulate and thick skinned Fillip De Winter who is the leader has a certain charisma says, it how it is and does not mince words. He also has the ability that most politicians don't have, and that is to be able to string more that two sentences together without going Er Errrh. The last poll gave them 38% of the votes give or take a couple of percent. Now imagine how the vote would go if it ever really got out, and it was Headline news that these cretins had fire bombed a hospital which had to be brought under control by the fire brigade. These idiots most likely threw the Molotov Cocktails into one of the main entrances, imagine the consequences if they weren't able to get it under control. Try evacuating a hospital when it is on fire and one of the entrances is blazing. This is far more serious than people think and I am certain that the politicians are mopping their brows and breathing a big sigh of relief at this very moment.
If these people start molesting you too much get a dog, and teach it to bare it teeth a growl, preferably a dog that slobbers, you might get done for racist growling, but you wont be raped.
Deep regards
American in Germany I bet you are quiet as a mouse in real life. Frankly i prefer the German government to have a round-table discussion with Muslim federations and Muslim dissidents - after all American politicians do just that...........so do British politicians.
I don't really want to go back to the days of rounding people up and putting them into cattle trucks for extermination - that has been tried and caused a lot of problems.
There are unacceptable behaviours from some of the Muslims living in Europe, but unless you want to go out on the street and wear a brownshirt - they will take you quite readily will some of the parties out there - and follow through, I suggest you come back to the centre-ground rather than making Americans look a bit unbalanced.
What most people do not want is people stirring a pot and then running off leaving others to deal with it - there are people who shoot up schools in Colorado, just as there are in Germany - no point in getting the lunatics into the fight that bin Laden desperately wants. When Europeans fight it tends to produce the biggest conflicts in world history.
The fact that I don't believe Islam to be a valid religion does not mean I should accept people turming Muslims into bars of soap or making lampshades out of human skin - that is a more vivid history in Europe than in the United States, and turning Germany into another Iraq somehow does not appeal to most Germans, surprisingly.
BanyQaynuqa, Welcome to this site. I couldn't help think about your statement that you were born in the west, grew up in the west, and your friends that grew up here share your thoughts.
My question to you is, why are a huge number of your Muslim brothers born and raised in the west (England, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Italy etc.) not buying into your way of thinking?
I regret to say that even though I believe you are sincere, you are way off the mark on your religion.
There are fights and people dying on every corner of this planet solely based on the words of the Quran.
We are watching violence in Europe, Africa, Asia, North America, Australia and now I am afraid the eyes have been also turned to South America. There is not a corner untouched in this world, and they are all done by people following your religion.
I was on holidays last year in Cartagena, Colombia with my family visiting my in laws. I was walking along a beach by a destitute fishing village and was alarmed to see a building with a sign on it "Fundamentalist Islamic School". I told all of my in laws about this and told them to prepare for the inevitable consequences. I was told that Colombia has a huge Turkish community, and they jokingly stated I was probably the only Greek in the country at that time.
I fear that this plague will take the world, and its only hope for a peaceful solution is that true moderate Muslims take up the fight and put themselves at risk for their culture. If this doesn't happen it will lead to the darkest chapter in human history.
Niv
"Great point! Keep the discussion going".
Unfortunately, Jihad Watch does not lend itself well to extended discussion. Yes there's a little, but before long the topic is down, down, down the page and then gone before you know it.
I would like to see a Jihad Watch Forum where topics could be discussed at length depending on participant interest.
What other forums facilitate extended discussions? Any suggestions?
I doubt that BQ is here for taqqiya purposes. If he is then he's wasting his time as no group could be more immune to it than this one.
Voyager,
Nowhere did americaningermany promote death camps and committing the atrocities you mention.
Deportation is simply that: kicking them out. Personally, I'm for it. And if this war becomes flagrant, then I'm for internment camps, just as the Democratic Roosevelt administration did to the Japanese Americans. I'm sorry, but this is a life and death situation and too many Muslims have proven themselves to be mad enough to walk into public places and blow themselves up and whatever innocent civilians happen to be nearby.
If it comes to this, the Islamofascists have done it to themselves and to their people. They have no one else to blame.
Dear pythagoras
You obviously do not know how to read and perhaps do not have the ability to understand but perhaps this is the problem with Muslim Extremism - THEY DO KNOW THE DIFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY AND IMAGINATION! The German opera is putting on an Opera - ART! ART! ART! IT IS MAKE BELIEVE - YOU CAN ATTEND IT OR NOT ATTEND IT. It is freedom of expression. Nobody said anything about murder. It is not an event hosted by the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who cuts off peoples heads in real life. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WESTERN CIVILIZATION AND EXTREMIST ISLAM - EXTREMIST MUSLIM DON'T HAVE THE JUDGEMENT TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY AND WHAT IS NOT REALITY - THERE MINDS HAVE BEEN POUNDED AT THE ISLAMIC MADRASES IN PAKISTAN FROM BIRTH AND THEY DON'T KNOW UP FROM DOWN - JUST HOW TO HATE!
By the way CHUMP - I live in the United States - So whats yourt problem?
Dear Niv
I could not agree with you more. Fundamentalist Islam is a cancer spreading in the world. Why people in my religion have not said okay this 9/11 business is not about what we are about so let us raise our own armies and put out these wild dogs - this would be the greatest hisotic achievement of Islam - to take off the head of the snake called Wahabism. I agree with all your comment but I am still a Mulsim and pray at home now - My wife and I have no friends anymore at the local mosque - we had hundreds of friends and when tehy leared of our position on these matters we were shunned. The day the Iman here said "Do not turn in your brithers or sisters to the FBI as it is a sin and offense to Islam" we never went back there. My wife is Burmese and when America decided to go into Iraq in 2002 she was suprised because she said if there was a place for regime change it was Burma - Not Iraq.
Voyager
While americaningermany can and did bat for herself, it's worth noting that the only reason Muslims never made lampshades and soapbars out of the Infidels that they slaughtered over the ages was that they had no idea about how to make lamps, and they never used soaps. So the moral equivalence you try to assign on us is better assigned to the ummah.
BanuQaynuqa
While Burma/Myanmar may have their problems with democracy, those are self contained. They are not a threat to Thailand or India or any of their neighbors, let alone countries half way around the world. I do agree that if a democracy were to be imposed on Myanmar, Iraq style, the people there are more likely to be appreciative, and there wouldn't be the daily bloodletting that there is in Iraq.
I think it's admirable of you to have distanced yourself from the local ummah, rather than endorse the Jihad.
BanuQaynuqa:
I admire your courage to go against the grain.
I think man is social by nature and it would be difficult to practice one's religion without the communal aspect.
Have you found any other mosque where they would share your moderation and rationalism?
BanuQaynuqa, thanks for your reply. I am most distressed by my point being made as you stated that you had hundreds of friends and now you have none.
It is this event that unfortunately proves the point of many of the people on this site. I only hope and pray that more of you are found and band together, not only to save your kind, but all of us.
This is what is going to lead us all into a catastrophic event that will ultimately cause death and destruction to many innocents on both sides, if we cannot head this problem off from within the culture.
The most disturbing aspect of this is the fact that this is happening in the US, that makes me think that it really is over, and the fight will be on.
Niv
Folks,
We at http://www.islam-watch.org/ have a new set of http://islam-watch.org/CommunityServer/forums/default.aspx ">Fora where more extended discussions can take place. I recommend the Comments on Current Affairs section where you can post a topic of your choice for a discussion thread (must be Islam-related and current), or you can likewise start discussions about news, articles, and op-eds on our main page by starting them here
Note: We don't have the traffic of JW/DW but we are building.
I am afraid that any muslim claiming to be a "moderate" is just biding his/her time until they are the majority.
Posted by: americaningermany at September 28, 2006 05:22 PM
Americaningermany has hit the nail!
A 'moderate' muslim is a terorrist, waiting to happen.
BanuQaynuqa
"I am enjoying this board very much. I am a Muslim man who likes the annonyminity of this message board."
Were you a muslim woman a few days ago over at Jihad Watch called CITYcat? And don't be so sure about the annonyminity of the message board. Remember this is the internet. So how is it the jihadis at mosque have not sniffed you out by now? Are you an informant? If so, Allu a akbar or whatever.
Well when I come across someone who says he is a muslim, but a moderate one who dislikes the "extreme muslims", and then he also says that he prays 5 times a day, I smell a rat. Anyone who practices islam, albeit 'moderately', is a threat. And this wacko has not junked islam completely, he still follows what that paedophile murderer had said about 'praying' 5 times a day. 'Moderate muslim' ; there ain't no such animal. There is either muslim or non muslim.
Archimedes,
Thank you for the link. I will look forward to visiting soon! I hope to explore in-depth.
On the tenor of this thread...
Obviously there is a quite a diversity of opinion here on J & D Watch as to how 'reformable' Islam is or isn't. Nevertheless, I think it is counter-productive to automatically reject self-described Muslims who visit here, especially if they articulate troubled conscience over what is happening inside their faith. Obviously some of these may be trolls, or taqiyya artists, or in some other way deceitful, but that is undoubtedly true of some self-described Non-muslim posters as well (no, I don't have anyone particular in mind).
So it doesn't hurt to take BanuQaynuqa at his word. Even Irshad Manji says that she is still a Muslim, yet levels devastating criticism at aspects of her faith. And there are many great 'former' Muslims too, some of whom are laboring tirelessly to expose the warts and reform if possible (like Ibn Warraq).
Don't forget that most Muslims are BORN INTO IT. And IT is an all-encompassing, controlling system which is not easy to distance from, let alone escape from. it's a journey. It doesn't happen overnight. BQ may or may not be on that journey out, it's his choice. If what he is saying is true then he is certainly paying a price for staying in. If he is expressing solidarity AGAINST the militant bastards who are murdering in the cause of Islam (and he is), how does that harm us or the cause?
Skepticism is healthy but automatic rejection is foolish in my opinion. We are seeking the broadest possible coalition against the predations of militant Islam. Muslim and/or former Muslim intellectual refugees are some of our strongest Allies if we let them.
Thank you all very much for your comments. I am a moderate to liberal Muslim and if that sounds like a contradiction of terms or an oxymoron I will not argue that. As you are all aware I have to be careful not to disclose my identity as, yes, there are other Muslims out there looking for traitors and knowing what I know about some of the persons at the mosque where I was married and prayed for the past ten years, I would not place those who I love at such risk. BUT that being said many of you are skeptical and exhibit disbelief and that can be a good quality in many circustances I can tell you this. I was born into a Presbyterian family in the midwest. I am a professional. I married and converted to Islam at that time (Pre 9/11) I did have and continue to have some issues with Christianity (Guilt) If I had not selected a religion you could view me as a persone who despises BOTH Fundamentalist Christianity AND Fundamentalist Islam. Anything in-between is okay with me as reasonable. I did make one mistake in one of my postings and perhaps it would identify me but I cannot change that now.
You are right in that perhaps my stance as a moderate Muslim is an exercise in futility and doomed to fail. An analogy would be, one joining an organization that by its very nature
could not be consistent with the values of the individual joining -i.e. a priest who wishes to join the mafia and establih a moral code, a pharmacist who wants to join the cali cartel and sell legal drugs legally, etc . . .
I am finished with this thread and it has been a pleasure to speak with others on this thread and I will continue to participate in other threads.
(I can be also found AOL with the same user name as this thread)
By the way I was very suprised to see that I did not hear from any Islamic Mercenaries on my threads. Look up Banu Qaynuqa in the Wikipedia.
Thanks.
The key to the imminent success of Islam is the birth control pill. White women no longer breed. Moslimas do so with a vengeance, with explicit purpose.
So, if you need people, you go south to get them. In America, this has meant going for aboriginals such as Mexicans, Guatamalans, and the like,
Europe, tragically, has dipped into... dar al Islam for their fresh meat.
Such are the wages of the Good Life. It can only last so long. There is always a price to pay.
610 * 623 * 732 * 1066 * 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001
Answer me one thing: we've got a surfeit aborignals streaming northward into the States, so why all the INS Moslems? Are they necessary at all, especially given the great costs they bring?
Nowhere did americaningermany promote death camps and committing the atrocities you mention.
True......and I never claimed she did, but in Germany it is a sensitive subject, that's all........it comes back to haunt like the mass-grave found recently in Sauerland from the T-4 Program.
The opera Idomeneo is currently being produced in Turkey..........presumably the SPD don't get too alarmed there as in Berlin. The SPD is also trying to stop co-educational sport and sex-education classes in Nordrhein-Westfalen because of the extreme Muslim groups.
BTW.......Muslims are not homogeneous - the British imported Pakistanis from that basket-case country; the French North Africans, the Germans Turks...........then the rest went mad on importing Palestinians and Lebanese and Syrians and Iraqis and Iranians.
It is the United States which is pressing Europe to admit Turkey to the EU so it becomes 20% Muslim - why is hard to understand ?
Voyager and Americaningermany, I don't know how many times I've stated this here, but I've lost track now. I totally agree with you on the Turkey issue.
The US has to stop its support of Turkey period, not just to enter the EU. Puppet Britain is also carrying the sword of Muhammad by pushing for their entry into the EU.
At what point do we in the west realize that WWIII has started and the other side is the only one fighting. I believe Momar Khadaffi even stated a few years back, that if Turkey is allowed into the EU, it would be the Trojan Horse that kills Europe.
I couldn't have put it better myself here is a link to his quote. http://freerepublic.info/focus/f-news/1304275/posts
The west just trucks along and walk toward the light with a smile on its face, just as the mosquito flies to the bug zapper clueless of the fate awaiting it.
By the way, I just received my copy of The Truth about Muhammad by Robert Spencer. I can't wait to get into it, I'm sure it will do what all of these types of books do to me, piss me off! Anyway I'll let everyone know what I think of it when I'm done. I also highly recommend to anyone here who hasn't ordered it yet to do so, it is one of the best ways I can think to support this site.
Niv
Americaningermany, keep repeating no Turkey in EU, I'm with you all the way.
It's up to people like us and on this site to carry that message till it's heard.
Take care,
Niv