The Church - Part of the Problem or Part of the Solution?

A new Fjordman essay:

Although not a religious person myself, I am usually in favor of a revitalization of Christianity in Europe. However, I sometimes have my doubts when I see how many, too many, church leaders consistently end up on the wrong side of issues related to Islam and Muslim immigration.

Bat Ye'or claims that dhimmitude in the Middle East has often progressed because Christian leaders have sold out their own people, either for short-term personal gains or in the mistaken belief that they have a "shared religious heritage" with Muslims. It is also frequently Christian leaders and bishops in the West who are calling for open borders for poor, destitute Muslims because "it is the Christian thing to do."

The Protestant Lutheran Church in the German city of Hannover organized an exhibition to acquaint the Germans with Islam. The exhibition, entitled "The Faces of Islam," was the work of the female students of the Protestant Studies Institute in Aachen. On Palm Sunday in 2006, a Protestant church in Bochum, Germany celebrated Muhammad's birthday and invited the local Turkish community to attend the service. A Turkish music band played Sufi music during the service, in which Protestants and Muslims joined together in honor of Muhammad.

In the UK, church leaders wanted to invite the families of the London suicide bombers to a national memorial service in honor of the victims. Two senior Church of England bishops believed that extending the invitation to the bombers' families would acknowledge their own loss and send a powerful message of reconciliation to the Muslim community. Dr John Sentamu, the Archbishop of York, urged the nation to unite and turn would-be suicide bombers into friends by building "an inclusive circle of love."

The same Archbishop has also said that British Christians should see Muslims as allies in the struggle against secularism. A number of Christian, and some Jewish, leaders shared this point of view both during the death threats against Salman Rushdie and during the Danish cartoon Jihad.

Meanwhile, in Indonesia, about 10,000 Christians have been killed between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 churches have been burnt down by Muslim mobs. The radicals want Indonesia to be the foundation of a Southeast Asian caliphate that will launch Jihad against other nations such as Singapore, Thailand, the Philippines and Australia until they submit to Islam. In the Indonesian province Aceh, where sharia law officially prevails, Muslim mobs razed a church in response to a forged (by a Muslim) advertisement inviting Muslims to a Christian revival service. Witnesses said there were over 100 Muslim men present, many of them carrying swords. They poured gasoline over the building and set fire to it.

Why this aggressive reaction? According to Islamic law, Christians and Jews (not other religious groups) can live in an area dominated by Muslims, but only if they accept their status as second-rate citizens, dhimmis. This implies many restrictions, such as never trying to convert or preach to Muslims, never to have a relationship with a Muslim woman and never to say anything insulting about Islam or Muhammad. If even one single person breaches any of these conditions, the entire dhimmi community will be punished, and Jihad resumes. Notice that while Muslims, following each case of Islamic terrorism, are quick to say that not all Muslims should be punished for the actions of a few, this is precisely what sharia proscribes for non-Muslims.

What's worse is that in practice, as in this case from Indonesia, attacks on non-Muslims can be triggered by unconfirmed rumors, personal grudges by Muslims or outright lies. In reality, this means that all non-Muslims will live with a constant, internalized fear of saying or doing anything that could insult Muslims, which would immediately set off physical attacks against them and their children. This state of constant fear is called dhimmitude. Many Middle Eastern, Pakistani and Indonesian Christians know that as a matter of survival, they must say one thing in public and another in private. They are held hostage in their own countries.

In Egypt, a film depiction of someone converting to Islam and then becoming disillusioned with his new religion was enough to bring more than 5,000 protestors to the church, get a nun stabbed and three people killed. Muslims interpreted it as a breach of the traditional Islamic law mandating death for anyone who leaves Islam, and of the old dhimmi laws forbidding non-Muslims to proselytize.

Bishop Armia of the Coptic Church in Egypt, which predates the 7th century Arab invasion and preserves the last remainder of the language
of the ancient pharaohs, assured that "Copts would never tolerate anyone insulting Islam." Coptic Pope Shenouda III, knowing fully well that any provocation could mean mayhem and murder for his fellow Copts, has reiterated that "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ."

Several recent incidents have demonstrated that Muslims are now trying to apply these dhimmi rules to the entire Western world. The most important one was the burning of churches and embassies triggered by the Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad. This was, down to the last comma, exactly the way Muslims would treat the persecuted non-Muslims in their own countries. The cartoon Jihad indicated that Muslims now felt strong enough to apply sharia rules to Denmark, and by extension NATO. Hardly anybody in the mainstream Western media made any attempts to explain this to the public.

In another case, angry protests raged across the Muslim world over a Newsweek magazine report that interrogators at the U.S. military prison Guantanamo Bay had put the Koran on toilets, and in at least one case flushing it down. The escalating violence prompted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to urge Muslims to resist calls for violence. "Disrespect for the Holy Koran is abhorrent to us all," she said. Newsweek later retracted their original article, which was found to be baseless.

In November 2002, days before the Miss World pageant in Nigeria, a Nigerian newspaper published an article in which the writer suggested that Islam's prophet, Muhammad, would have approved the pageant and would have chosen a wife amongst the contestants. The article sparked a Jihad riot in which over 200 people were killed and thousands injured. The next day, the newspaper published an apology. The president of Nigeria went on national television and condemned the newspaper. He said, "It could happen anytime irresponsible journalism is committed against Islam."

As one African observer later noted about the Newsweek story, the reaction of the White House in the United States was largely similar to that a Third World president gave when faced with the same challenge. For Muslims, the world's only remaining superpower appeared to play the role of dhimmis.

Bishop Artemije, the spiritual leader of Kosovo's beleaguered Serbs, has warned against Western support for an independent state in the province, where Muslim Albanians greatly outnumber Christian Serbs and have destroyed many churches and monasteries under the auspices of NATO soldiers. The Bishop warns that independence would reward ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims. Since 9-11, he said, "the United States has been engaged in a global struggle against jihad terrorism, which threatens not just America but peaceful people of all faiths and nationalities. That is why we who live in the Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija find it difficult to understand why so many voices of influence in Washington support a course of action that would hand to the terrorists a significant victory in Europe."

While Muslims responded with deadly outrage to the now-retracted report by Newsweek of alleged Koran desecration, there was little outcry when Islamic gunmen in 2002 holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, assumed to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ, used the Bible as toilet paper. About 30 priests, monks and nuns, and more than 150 Palestinian civilians, who hid inside to escape a gun battle between Israelis and Palestinians, remained inside the church with the armed militants for more than five weeks. Some of the Palestinian fighters, who belonged to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, part of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization, were received as heroes when they later returned to Gaza.

During the so-called Oslo peace process from the mid 1990s, while Palestinian authorities received financial support from Western nations, Arafat increased the boundaries of Bethlehem to include nearby Muslim villages, and encouraged Muslims to settle in the city. As a result, the percentage of Christians rapidly declined.

The Islamic gunmen were also responsible for the rape and murder of two Christian teenage sisters. The assailants claimed that the sisters had been murdered because they were "prostitutes" and had been "collaborating" with Israeli security forces. "The gangsters murdered the two sisters so that they would not tell anyone about the rape," said a family member. "Many Christian families have sent their daughters abroad for fear they would come under attack by Muslim men." "Some of the murderers were later killed by the Israeli army, but others are now living in Europe after they had sought refuge in the Church of Nativity. It's absurd that Muslim men who rape and murder Christian girls are given political asylum in Christian countries like Ireland, Spain and Italy."

The irony is that the same sexual harassment and rape of non-Muslim women, part and parcel of Jihad, is now spreading to cities in Western Europe with many Muslim immigrants.

Professor Weiner, Scholar in Residence at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, provides an in-depth look into the nearly uninterrupted persecution of Christians throughout the decade since the Oslo peace process began. The Christians have shrunk to less than 1.7 percent of the population in the Palestinian areas. "Tens of thousands have abandoned their holy sites and ancestral properties to live abroad, while those who remain do so as a beleaguered and dwindling minority," Weiner said. "Their plight is, in part, attributable to the adoption of Muslim religious law (sharia) in the constitution of the Palestinian Authority. Moreover, the Christians have been abandoned by their religious leaders who, instead of protecting them, have chosen to curry favor with the Palestinian leadership."

More than 500 Muslim men, chanting Allahu akbar, attacked the Christian village of Taiba east of Ramallah. "They poured kerosene on many buildings and set them on fire. Many of the attackers broke into houses and stole furniture, jewelry and electrical appliances," said one resident. The attack was triggered by the murder of a Muslim woman from the nearby village of Deir Jarir. Her family forced her to drink poison for having had a romance with a Christian man from Taiba. Muslim men can marry Christian women, but Islamic law forbids Muslim women from marrying Christian men. The Christian community was thus collectively punished because it was rumored that one of their members had breached the rules of dhimmitude.

In a meeting attended by Robert Spencer, former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky noted that Israel had again and again aided Christians - at their own request - against Islamic violence and injustice, most notably when the Church of the Nativity was occupied by Jihadists in 2002. Yet international Christian leaders, he said, have not responded with similar gestures toward Israel. He is right. While Christians are persecuted on a daily basis in Muslim nations and may soon be wiped out in the Holy Land, Christian organizations in the West are too frequently engaged in "dialogue" with Muslims and demonization of Israel. Christians need to realize that they have much more in common with other non-Muslims, not just Jews, but Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Atheists, than they will ever have with Muslims. Jussi Halla-Aho, running for parliament in Finland as an independent candidate, has come to some of the same conclusions as I have regarding the Leftist-Islamic cooperation in many Western nations: The Left milks the working natives to maintain a predominantly idle immigrant population, who thankfully vote for the Left. The welfare state society thus has to support two parasites, each living in a symbiotic relationship with the other. This will eventually cause the system to collapse. Why would anyone support a policy that leads to certain destruction? Well, because a career politician never sets his sights 20, 50 or 100 years to the future but instead focuses on the next election. The short-term focus of our democratic system can thus, combined with Muslim immigration, turn into a fatal flaw.

But Halla-Aho asks an even more important question: "Why do the voters let all this happen? It is because Westerners like to be "good" people and believe that their fellow men are equally good people. It is because they have humane values." "It is because the moral and ethical values of Western man have made him helpless in the face of wickedness and immorality."

Our Western "moral and ethical values" are profoundly influenced by Judeo-Christian thinking. Will our openness to outsiders, our democratic system and our Christian compassion, precisely the values that we cherish the most, render the West incapable of withstanding Jihad? A good Christian has to turn the other cheek and love his enemies. How are we to reconcile this with the reality that Muslims regard this as a sign of weakness? And how can we fight sharia when bishops and church leaders are the first to call for a "compassionate" immigration policy that allows masses of Muslims to settle here? Christians argue that Europe's problem is a cultural vacuum created by the retreat of church attendance and Christianity as a religion, which has paved the way for Islam to enter. They have a point, as I have shown before. But some Christian groups are opening the West to Islam, too, and the secular state doesn't have to be insipid and toothless. Far from it, it was secular states that fought and defeated the Fascist regimes during WW2 and risked the destruction of the planet in the Cold War. The non-religious authorities in China are far more ruthless in crushing any Islamic aggression than most Christian countries are. Of course, the downside is that they are far more ruthless in crushing anything deemed to be a potential challenge to their power.

Luckily, not all Christian leaders are appeasers of Islam. One of the intelligent ones comes from Australia, a country that has been fairly resistant to Political Correctness. They have taken serious steps towards actually enforcing their own borders, despite the predictable outcries from various NGOs and anti-racists, and Prime Minister John Howard has repeatedly proven to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world. George Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney, tells of how September 11 was a wake-up call for him personally:

"I recognised that I had to know more about Islam." "In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages." "The predominant grammatical form in which jihad is used in the Koran carries the sense of fighting or waging war." "Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for fear-reaching renovation is severely limited." "I'd also say that Islam is a much more war-like culture than Christianity." "I've had it asserted to me is that in the relationship between the Islamic and non-Islamic world, the normal thing is a situation of tension if not war, or outright hostility."

Pope Benedict XVI, nicknamed "God's rottweiler" as a cardinal, seems to embody elements of both the sensible and the silly Christian ways of dealing with the Islamic threat. Although Benedict has stressed the need for "reciprocity" in Christian-Muslim relations and urged Islamic countries to ensure religious rights for Christian migrants, he has also said that Christians should continue welcoming Muslim immigrants with open arms.

It caused an uproar in the Islamic world when Benedict XVI, as a part of a longer dissertation, quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor´s hostile view of Islam's founder: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Benedict later said he was "deeply sorry" for the reaction to his comments on Islam and that the quote he used from the medieval text about holy wars did not reflect his personal thoughts. Although this technically constitutes a non-apology apology and was deemed "unsatisfactory" by Muslims, many anti-Jihadists would have preferred the Pope to use the opportunity to make a clearer stand against Islamic aggression.

Still, his comments raised public debate about the issue, and certainly marked progress compared to his predecessor Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Koran in public in an effort to reach our to Muslims.

I have described examples of incredible stupidity and appeasement from Christians in the West, but also of courage and clarity of mind in standing up to Islamic aggression and defending Western civilization and the world from sharia. The ideological civil war within the West is not just between secularists and religious people; it runs straight through the Church itself.

Christians need to understand that there can be no peace or understanding with the Islamic world. They want to subdue us, pure and simple. Church leaders of all denominations, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, must stop stabbing Israel in the back and campaigning for a de facto open borders policy while Muslims are threatening to swamp our lands. Yes, Christianity teaches compassion, but it also teaches identifying evil and standing up to it. At the end of the day, the Church must decide whether, in the defense of civilization, it wants to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution.

| 27 Comments
del.icio.us | Digg this | Email | FaceBook | Twitter | Print | Tweet

27 Comments

Re: "Christians should continue welcoming Muslim immigrants with open arms."

Why?

Muslims don't share a religious heritage with Christians. Islamic and Christian theology are nothing alike.

Islam teaches Muslims that they are on a higher status than Christians and Jewish. Islam teaches that Muhammad was the final prophet and revealer of the truth. Jesus was not a savior of the world nor was he God according to Islam.

Muslims are NOT converting to Christianity. They are also not integrating into European society.

Muslims are converting European Christians to Islam. Muslims are turning churches into mosques. Muslims are setting up squatter communities in churches- given to them by polyanna priests and bishops.

Read here about what the Belgian bishops have done. It will amaze you:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1053

The Church is part of the solution. Every thing outside of Islam is part of the solution. Everyone outside of Islam is part of the solution.

The Church has a big stake in the outcome. The Qur'an is the only document and Islam the only religion which calls out Christians by name. It denies the central tenets of the faith and assigns many insults and accusations against those who believe Christian tenets. Islam is anti-Christian in word and deed. It does this with every other faith as well, true, but Islam specifially denies the cross, the trinity and more. It appropriates Jesus and renames him as a muslim prophet Isa ( Esau) They can't even get the name right, for God's sake.


The Church and every other church, faith, cult, ethical system, political system, charitable institution and so on that is outside the closed circle of Islam has a stake in the matter.

The rest of the world is not helpless. We're disinterested and lenient. This will change - Islam will force it to change. They (al-mu'minun - the True Believers ) will not let things be resolved amicably.

Worldwide Jihad will continue to be a threat until we pay more attention to who's doing Islam in Paris, France than we pay to who's doing Paris, Hilton.

This is not a permanent state for the world. Now that the Pope has made a stand and his Cardinals are backing it up and extending it, the world's gonna change people.

As long as there is such a thing as a true believer in Allah, there will be jihad. It is not enough to kill the Quran...The demon Allah has to die...or at least be bannished to the outer darkness that he came from. While many 'claim' to be working for God, few are actually doing it, and none of them are muslims.
The infectuous demon reverses good and puts evil into its place. It enslaves millions, it destroys a submitters sense of 'right and wrong', it removes inhibitions to violence and replaces it with a 'preference' for violence. It encourages murder and thievery. The demon manufactures dis-honesty and creates a bloated ego in the submitter. Allah has to die...Like a silver bullet can kill the wolfman, truth bullets can kill Allah...keep shooting them...soon Allah will fall and his rotting carcass will be thrown on the scrapheap of bad ideas.

The basis of the Christian Church is not the Cardinal, not the Bishop, but the Congregation. it is the corporatism of the modern church which has caused the problem.

Modern communications have led to centralisation and undermined the decentralisation which existed when communications were inferior. The only real reason Elizabeth I wanted Bishops and an episcopal church instead of a presbyterian one was that this was where Royal Proclamations were read out to the parishioners - it was a top-down communications system, but a bottom-up religious systems kept in line by The Book of Common Prayer.

The problem today is that in Western Europe the corporate church has so often messed with ritual, liturgy and even the graveyard and tombstones, that its claim to perpetuity seems to have given way to fashion and vogue opinions.

The parishioners feel they are there to serve the bureaucrats of the Church rather than God. Men particularly have abandoned the corporate church. It is largely men in their 40s and 50s, often the most affluent and educated who feel most patronised by the half-baked pronouncements of poorly educated ideologues in clerical garb.

That is the basis of the corroding Church - lack of leadership because it lacks men who have done more than conform to the prevailing doctrines of a seminary - in this the Church is most akin to that historically related branch - teaching.

The feminisation of teaching, the absence of male role models, the instilling of ideology through training colleges, and the paucity of leadership through example - of attainment and risk-taking - has diminished the status of teaching.

It is the failure to instill leadership by example - Jesus was a leader. He was a leader in life and a leader in death.

Voltaire,

"Turn your back on the whole lot, and start believing in humanity."

Sounds swell in theory. In practice, secular humanism has a majority of Leftist, Islam-appeasing, West-blaming dhimmis.

As I always say to atheists and pagans whose heads on this war are screwed on right: you're welcome to join with open arms, but don't overlook the fact that most of your peers are still on the other side.

Seems to me it's Islam versus everyone else. People of the book who do not revert to Islam might be spared to live a dhimmi life (it's nice to have untermenschen), but that will be the best that they can hope for. The survivors will need to turn to their religious beliefs for consolation.

Fjordman: "Notice that while Muslims, following each case of Islamic terrorism, are quick to say that not all Muslims should be punished for the actions of a few, this is precisely what sharia proscribes for non-Muslims."

This sentence, at the end of the seventh paragraph of the essay, contains an apparent diction error. Fjordman almost certainly means "prescribes" (dictates) rather than "proscribes" (forbids).

Old French saying by Louis Veuillot:

Quand je suis le plus faible, je vous demande la liberté parce que tel est votre principe. Mais quand je suis le plus fort, je vous l’ôte parce que tel est le mien

sums up what is going on at present

In practice, secular humanism has a majority of Leftist, Islam-appeasing, West-blaming dhimmis.


Demopathy does seem to be endemic in this particular group of people.

Fjordman said..

Christians need to understand that there can be no peace or understanding with the Islamic world. They want to subdue us, pure and simple. Church leaders of all denominations, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, must stop stabbing Israel in the back and campaigning for a de facto open borders policy while Muslims are threatening to swamp our lands.

I couldnt agree more, the major European Christian denominations primary goal should be to secure Christian Europe’s borders, (if you like a type of theological border that defines the boundaries between Dar-al-Harb & Islam). They should have all issued statements supporting BXVI and openly challenged Muslim scholars to debate the doctrine of Jihad and the Islamic stance towards Israel.

Sadly socialist driven secularism has so weakened the spiritual base of the continent that while the majority of people recognize what the churches should do, the Churches will IMHO do nothing other than tow the PC line. This rush to dhimmitude is being led principally by elements of the Anglican Church (apologies to those of the Anglican faith who do see their heritage being given away on the altar of multikulti cultural relativity).

mmm I can see I am ranting, any way great essay Fjordman.

Notwithstanding the valid points you make about the commonalities and relationship between Christianity and Islam, the fact is that the rejection of all religion, or at least its downplaying, which has been embraced so thouroughly on the Left, has not prevented the Left from cozying up to Islam. I presume that much of this can be explained by the Left's acceptance of Marx' and others' materialistic dialectic that reduces all human motives to class consciousness and responses to environmental factors, and the utterly naive assumption that, within this historical dialectic, Islam is the underdog force that, like all religion - the opiate of the people - expresses the oppressed masses' yearning to be free of their chains.

Whether this is true or not, I am profoundly skeptical of your position (nay, categorically opposed to it rather) that by simply abandoning all sense of, and search for, transcendent meaning and value we will find the solution that we need, which is what your call to "turn your back on the whole lot and start believing in humanity" is. In fact, the Socialist-Islamic alliance is the clear proof that it is the cause of the problem, not the answer to it.

Templar (aka "PatriarchMichaelCerularius")

Sorry, the above post was meant for Voltaire.

Voltaire, I'm with Zionistyoungster on this one.

There are more leftists and atheists on the side of these Muslim hordes than anyone else. How can a bunch of people who believe in nothing ever stand up to, let lone understand what it's like to have an enemy who believes with every fibre of his existence in what they are doing.

We all need to find something to believe in, and fight for. The more we sway to the atheist ideal, the further away we are from safety. We are in this mess today because we have turned our back on the beliefs we were raised with. We are in this mess today because the western world as whole has adopted the leftist socialists ideals of atheism.

Let's look at it from another point of view. The Nazi's were your ultimate example of an atheist government or movement. It acted out on basic Darwinian principals, and took the ultimate race, or survival of the fittest ideal to its natural horrific conclusion. The Soviet Union and all communist societies for that matter are atheist, I have yet to see one single example of a society like that acting in a humane manner. Like it or not religion is the founding for human reasoning, Islam unfortunately is the one religion out there that has no room for reasoning built into it.

Our only hope is that more of us turn to a real belief system, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc, anything but Islam of course.

Now as for your comment that Christians view Islam with a commonality is bogus. There are people on all sides who may sympathize with those who want them dead, however the vast majority of Christians are most definitely against this religion. There was an interview in the west bank of Christians leaving their Church and being asked by reporters what they felt about the Popes comments. Most stated that they did not agree with the Pope and he shouldn't have said it. Then they asked one woman leaving and she said, "The Pope said what we all here know is true, but we are too scared to say it, as we have to live with these people."

Try keeping that in mind when a Christian offers a response you don't like, especially from places where they have to live with these people.

Niv

What we're seeing is the logical consequences of the Sixties spilling over into policy, and even into theology.

In the aftermath of the Sixties, we've seen in the West the politics of the gesture, the artful pose, presenting the right posture towards others. Actual deeds became relegated in importance to the pose, which became the barometer of one's commitment to whatever cause du jour.

That's what we're seeing in the Church. The actual SUBSTANTIVE damage of various policies, such as open borders to muslims, isn't even comparable in importance to the right gesture, and that gesture must demonstrate some "broadmindedness."

Christ actions were never purely symbolic, and on Holy Thursday at the Last Supper, and later on Friday, atop Golgatha, became sacramental.

The Church cannot sacralize an open border policy, though they may think they can. Just like their fondness for socialism and progressivity in the tax code, postures, gestures and poses ultimately don't cut it.

It's all due to a LACK OF HISTORICAL SERIOUSNESS in high places, not just the Church, but in chancelleries, foreign ministries, cabinet and editing rooms.

It's really troubling.

I fear that the church is part fo problem, in this upcoming confrontation with Islam. I do not trust any Western Church leaders , except the Pope and Cardinal Pell. I am a angry Anglican on my way to going Orthodox.

Protestants in particular are to viewed with suspicion. The liberal mainline Protestant chruches destroyed the faith and replaced it with social work and soft marxism,where as many Evangelicals have fatalistic world view that the world is trash and we just need to wait for the rapture.Evangelicalism also disavows the idea of "Christiandom" and has very marked negative tendancy to towards anti-intellectualism. All they think is you need is Jesus.Many Evanglical lay people have the right ideas, but all their leaders have are thin platitudes about being born again and needing Jesus. In the face of Muslim violence this is and will be all they can stammer out. Evangelicalism is too thin a faith intellectually and psycologically to fight back. You will pretty much never have an Evangelical theologian on Pope Benedict's, level. Generally when they reach that level they convert to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There have been thousands of Protestant conversion to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism in last couple of decades. Which brings me to my final point.

Only Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the confidence, intellectual resources and the coherent theology to answer Islam. What has happened to them in our life time is that they been weakened, particulary the Catholic church. The Catholic church in particular has been Protestantized since the 1960s, when Catholic liberals imported the worst of Protestant liberalism in the Catholic church. Liberal protetsants all subscribe to several major heresies such as Pelaginism, which impede any ability to correctly evaluate evil and those who are evil. Those liberal Catholic leaders who support open borders,et al. are essentailly liberal Portestants in outlook and should be driven out where they are found. Heretics they all are.

In the end it depends on which Christianity wins out, if traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy win out the West will have a chance. But if Protestantism and its inherent weaknesses and heresies wins out we are screwed. I am sorry if I offend anyone, but as somoene who grew up Protestant I call as I see it.

"Germany celebrated Muhammad's birthday "

And those ass wipes pay everybody back by cancelling Freddie Mercury's birthday party. He did more for mankind than mohammed ever did.

Another excellent post by Fjordman.

A commenter above says: "Turn your back on the whole lot, and start believing in humanity."

This is the clarion call of all the pseudo-liberals and supposed secularists in Europe (and sometimes America too.)

Let's examine it.

Plank 1. of 'The Secular Fix' is "No religion!"

Let's try to put that into effect and see what happens:

To work, you must mandate such a rule universally, as State Law. To be effective, the law would forbid Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims -- ALL of them will be prevented from practicing their religions.

Would it work? For starters, the poster, who also states "I also see christianity as being equivalent to Mussolini's fascist party", proposes something that would do il Duce proud. Only the brutal and ruthless enforcement of this dystopian silliness would work -- and of course you'd have to hire squadrons of Prevention of Vice, Promotion of Virtue police running around making sure no body worships anything in your pretty how town. Now that's starting to sound like certain Theocracies where the State Religion is the only one tolerated -- same old wolf in similar sheeps clothing. So much for "believing in humanity".

And if enforcement held back, was somewhat benign, less severe, then let's examine what would happen under that regime:

The mild and compliant from among those proscribed religions would comply with the secular mandate. But what if any of those groups refuses to participate? What if, in order to not appear like a absolute Tyranny, the State takes it easy on those non-compliant practitioners? What happens then? To find out, one must figure out who is most likely NOT to comply -- to cause a ruckus -- to rebel against the Secular Mandate.

Who from among the list of Proscribed Relgions shows a congenital contempt regarding the honoring or observing of the local customs and demands of their adopted countries, wherever they settle? Who proves to be the singularly most intransigent, most offended, most likely to erupt in violence? Which, from among the list shows a universal reflex of violence for all real and imagined slights and perceived 'transgressions' and imagined 'repressions' against their 'religion'?

Of course it's the Muslims.

Simply put, radical secularism encourages Islam. Embracing such ideas creates the perfect breeding ground for Islamic insurgency. It's no coincidence that the planners of 9/11, and all the other global bombers of Al Qaida had/have links to Europe's Radical Secularist Capitals. Europe's rudderless religionless nations have become the worlds worst breeding grounds for Islam's most capable and horrific stormtroopers.

What is proposed, then, in "Turn your back on the whole lot" is the exact same nightmare concoction Europe has been feverishly brewing for 50+ years. It's poisonous. The dangerousness of such thinking still doesn't penetrate the skulls of persons who propose such things.... They must be blind, even more than when they concocted such fascims. Now they must begin to open their eyes -- they are surrounded by enclaves of self segregating self defined non participating rage habituated persecution obsessed Muslims -- Muslims who gain traction and gain furore exactly because of such grand radical secular boondoggles - and we see the results.

How can such people not notice the calamity they've invited through such pseudo-liberal and actually anti-humanist ideas? Muslims -- who have absolutely no intention of following such illiberal ideas, who have no respect for Western Humanism, relish the opportunities which non-belief affords them. It greatly increases their hatred. It proves they are among the worst of the worst, the non-believers, who above all others must be killed. The poster foolishly says: "Christians hate pagans more than they will ever hate Islam." It's wrong, of course. But even if this were true, SO WHAT? I don't see them flying planes into buildings or slicing off heads lately because of their supposed hatred for non-believers. When they start doing these things, call me, OK? Until then, I suggest the poster examines the underpinnings of such ideas.

A reading of Benedict's speech shows that topic of radical secularism is the exact discussion he wants to have with the secularists of the West. He hypothesizes that without such a healthy dialogue between secular and religious institutions (Christian) intellectuals, that the treasures of the West, Humanism, Enlightenment, and even post-modernism in it's milder forms, as well as all possibility of social ecumenism are under threat.

It is a provocative speech, and provides a good point of departure for such a dialogue. What is more, it's hard to argue that he's wrong, given what's happening today in Europe, and to a lesser extent, in America and other Western nations. Under Islam's relentless assault, and under radical secular zealotry, Benedict warns that the West may not survive.

Fjordman is damn right. In India, the despicable missionaries and their dhimmi followers attack Hindu nationalists mercilessly using the media as their whores. They shill for jihadis and call Hindus nazis. These bastards help the jihadi agenda in India by allying with the mullahs in 'Minority' alliances. Shame on them and for those in the West defending them against Hindus simply because we are 'idolators'. The perfidy of the missionaries should not be overlooked.

"the fact is that the rejection of all religion, or at least its downplaying, which has been embraced so thouroughly on the Left, has not prevented the Left from cozying up to Islam. I presume that much of this can be explained by the Left's acceptance of Marx'..."

You left out the racist factor: PC Multiculturalism is based upon a reverse racism and its close cousin, anti-Occidentalism. Since the vast majority of the world's Muslims are non-white and non-Western, they are automatically accorded the status of blameless victims of the evil West, with legitimate grievances against that evil West.

Johnathan,

I saw what the belgian Bishops had done.

A Shame.

I understand why Jesus entered the temple with a whip.

The Bishops need a good whip and a pair of balls to call themselves Christians.

Christians hate pagans more than they will ever hate Islam.

Well, I'm a Christian that sure doesn't. Remember that Christianity is a big tent. Some who wear the name are not Christian.

I might just take back what I said about the Anglican Church.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2366419,00.html

Tushar Saxena

Are Hindus being persecuted in the West?

And if not, why is it that I read that Christians in India are being persecuted?

As for India, why is it that it has not granted independence to the tribals in Nagaland and other such areas. These areas were never part of India and just happened to be bequeathed to India on independence. India is in effect a brutal colonial occupying power, using its modern and huge army to hunt down the poorly armed tribals.

Christians hate Paganism more than Islam? How can that be? Islam is yet another Paganism. Observant Moslems worship the gnostic demiurge, they idolize their prophet, a black rock, and their book, are fanatic slavers and brigands, and their equivalent sacrament to christian confession, which purifies the soul, is killing and being killed for their god. They are no better than the Aztecs, carving out hearts for the god of the smoking mirror, or the Thuggee, strangling wayfarers for their bloodthirsty goddess.

As for atheism, it is morally weak. What is the ultimate meaning of life in atheism? Where do humans go after death in atheism. Why, they die. Their mind is extinguished. Their soul never existed. Their body becomes compost. When threatened with death and told to become Moslem, how does that strengthen an atheist to resist and become a true martyr? Bill Maher is an atheist if anybody is, and he practically converted on air doing his monologue, with no guns pointed at him at all, simply at the thought of being threatened at gunpoint.

I wrote a little bit about why Atheism is a dangerous ally in these days on my blog. See here.

http://fishtacostand.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-atheism_18.html

Abdulalshirk and Pangloss,

I agree with you both.

The war with Islam is not a secular one. It is the proverbial battle between good and evil. The first thing evil did in this battle was to weaken the only opponent that could stand up to it, which was Catholicism. Lenin new this regarding Communism. He new that he could not fight and destroy the Church from the outside in, so he decided to infiltrate it and destroy it from within. If you don't believe this do a google search on a lady named Bella Dodd. She was an American Communist who recruited over 1000 communists to enter Catholic seminaries during the 30's and 40's and when she converted to Catholicism in the 50's, with the help of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, she spoke out against Communism and said that at that time (the late 50's) their were already clergymen who were up in the hierarchy of the Church and she said at least one was an Archbishop. She also said that she was only one of many agents who recruited communists into our seminaries. Keeping that in mind it is not hard to see how the Church's behavior in the 1960's and beyond went from being that of staunch protector of the faith, the faithful and innocents (think abortion)to this mamby-pamby peace and love B.S. that is served up as religion. The bishops do not stand up against anything that makes them squirmy, and Islam is a doozy.

The other thing to think about, which is extremely unpopular at this site and in society is that we might just have brought this on ourselves. The immigration policies instituted in the 60's by the Kennedys have invited all kinds of folks from other countries to come and live here and take advantage of our free market system but who don't want to assimilate and are basically told by some group or other that we wouldn't want to hurt their "id" so it's totally okay for them to do whatever they like and the American taxpayers will foot the bill. These people are all aware of their "rights", thanks to the application of political correctness over the past, say, 20 years. And if you don't spout the P.C. party line, it's open season on you and yours, especially if you are telling the truth.

No, we have an even bigger problem because we are aiming at the wrong target. Atheism will never be able to combat Islam because it stands against standing for something. I've often noticed here and with people I know that if you push an Atheist a little bit you'll find out that they were brought up Christian but were disappointed at some point in their past, usually because they prayed for something that did not come to pass. Then the venom comes out because they don't want to be subject to a Supreme Being Who doesn't, in their minds, listen to them anyway. What I can't figure out is how a person can convince themselves that there is no life after this one. It is illogical to be born and live on this earth for 80 or so years as a spiritual being with a body and think that you will just disappear once you die. I also think it is disingenous to act like Christianity is some quaint, obsolete relic of ancient history when this was very much a Christian society, albeit, going down the slippery slope, when I was a kid 30 some odd years ago. I remember it very clearly.

I guess the 60's did their dirty work and we are living with the consequences of those actions right now. And while people here and in society stick their heads in the sand and deny the Islamic onslaught has arrived or worse, argue about whatever perceived wrongs the church did to them, er I mean, to society, we are losing on the basis of moral grounds. If we throw away our morals there will be no vacuum. Islam will come in to fill it.

The other thing that people don't want to know about are Christian prophesies that address the evils we are facing now. When the Blessed Mother appeared to Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta at Fatima in 1917, she warned them to pray for the conversion of poor sinners and told them that unless people turned away from evil that calamities would befall all of us. She warned about Russia spreading it's errors throughout the world and she told them that WWI would end but that if people continued to sin and offend God an even more terrible war would come. She said that people would know that the war was starting when they saw strange lights in the sky at night over parts of Europe. Well there was an Aurora Borealis that could be seen over Western Europe, a month before Hitler invaded Poland. We know that Russia HAS spread it's errors. Think East Germany, Hungary, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, not to mention China, just to name a few. We haven't done what the Blessed Mother asked, that is, pray the Rosary and make sacrifices. We also know that while it has been perported that the message of Fatima was released and said something about Pope John Paul II being shot, and that the Blessed Mother's request to have Russia consecrated to her Immaculate Heart on one day with the Pope and all the bishops present, we have not experienced the peace that she promised us. Theologians have surmised that the real third secret of Fatima was that the faithful would apostasize and that the culprits in this drama would be the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Might that be why Pope John XXIII did not release the secret at the latest time that the Blessed Mother asked for it to be released, i.e., by 1960?

There is also historical evidence that the Blessed Mother helped Christians before in the face of Islamic expansionism. At the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 the Christians were severely outnumbered. But led by Don Juan of Austria, who invoked Our Lady and who encouraged his soldiers/sailors to pray the Rosary, which was also requested by Pope St. Pius V, the Muslims were defeated and their fleet was destroyed. (An interesting side note is that a member of the Christian Fleet was one Miguel de Cervantes who was wounded in the battle and later taken prisoner of the Turks, for five years. His experiences were referenced in a little ditty called Don Quixote.)

We have effectively rewritten our history. Those who do not learn from history are destined to relive it. We need to stop lying to cover up what we don't want to be responsible for and grow up. Our lives, our heritage and our childrens' futures depend on it.

Pangloss - I'm not an atheist ( I'm a VERY bad Christian), but if one believes that this life is all we have, why surrender control of it to some crack-brained theology like Islam for the sake of living a little longer as a slave? I will not seek martydom, but I'm quite willing to kill to preserve liberty.

DP, your rhetoric confirms what I just said...that ignorant people like you are taken in by missionary propaganda which works exactly like the jihadi propaganda. Nagaland never a part of India? Who told you that? Was it pat Robertson? Did you know that nagaland was mostly Hindu at independence. and Mr ignorance. 'tribals' in India are not your African types. They are very much part of Hindu society. But the church converted them with money and other goodies and all their MODERN weapons (not tribal javelins you asshole) are financed by Canadian and American churches. before spewing your bile, do check your facts. India's ruling party's head is a Catholic from Italy. State of Andhra Pradesh's chief minister is a Christian. He siphons off Hindu temple funds to missionaries. BIG TIME PERSECUTION RIGHT ASSHOLE? How about a 3 day mourning for the Pope's death (JP2) even when France and Ireland didnt do shit??
Stop spewing your crap







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



Follow me on Twitter
facebook islam
RSS feed

Monthly Archives



Donate
Jihad Watch is a 501 (c) 3 organization. Donations are tax-deductible.


Robert Spencer debates on The Quran Teaches WarVideo: Robert Spencer on CPAC Breitbart News
SIOAFreedom Defense InitiativeJihad Watch VideosAmerican Freedom Law Center
Note: Listing here does not imply endorsement of every view expressed at every linked site.

» ACT for America
» Always on Watch
» American Center for Democracy
» American Coptic Association
» American Council for Kosovo
» American Freedom Alliance
» American Freedom Law Center
» American Islamic Forum for Democracy
» American Sheepdogs
» American Thinker
» Americans Against Hate
» Americans for Legal Immigration
» Amerisrael
» Amillennialist Contra Mundum
» Annaqed
» A New Dark Age Is Dawning
» Answering Islam
» Answering Muslims
» Anti-CAIR
» Apostates of Islam
» Aramaic Broadcasting Network (ABN)
» Armies of Liberation
» Assyrian International News Agency
» Atlas Shrugs
» Atour — The State of Assyria
» Australian Islamist Monitor
» Biafra Nation
» Blazing Cat Fur
» Bosch Fawstin
» Brad Thor
» Brussels Journal
» CAIR Watch
» Campus Watch
» Caroline Glick
» Christians Under Attack
» Citizen Warrior
» Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights
» Conservative Nation News
» Copts.com
» Creeping Sharia
» Daniel Pipes
» David Horowitz Freedom Center
» The David Project
» David Thompson
» David Yerushalmi Law
» D. C. Watson
» Dearborn Underground
» DEBKAfile
» Dhimmitude.org
» Dry Bones
» Ellis Washington Report
» Europe News
» Eye On Islam
» Ezra Levant
» Faith Freedom International
» Father Zakaria
» Federale
» Five Feet of Fury
» Foundation for Democracy in Iran
» Free Congress Foundation
» The Free Copts
» Freedom Defense Initiative
» FrontPage Magazine.com
» Geert Wilders
» Genocide1915.info
» Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center
» History of Jihad
» Hizb ut-Tahrir Watch
» Honest Reporting
» Honor Killings
» Human Rights Congress for Bangladesh Minorities
» India Defence
» Infidel Blogger’s Alliance
» Infidels Are Cool
» The Intelligence Summit
» International Analyst Network
» International Free Press Society
» Internet Haganah
» The Investigative Project on Terrorism
» IOwnTheWorld.com
» IranPressNews
» Iran va Jahan
» Islam Review
» Islam Speaks
» Islam Versus Europe
» Islam Watch
» Islamic Terrorism in India
» Islamist Watch — Middle East Forum
» Israel Matzav
» JihadOnBuddhists.org
» Kejda Gjermani
» KRSI: Radio Sedaye Iran
» Liberated
» Logan's Warning
» Looking At the Left
» Mahdi Watch
» Mapping Sharia
» Mark Steyn
» Martin Kramer
» MEMRI TV
» Middle East Facts
» Middle East Quarterly
» Middle-East-Info.org
» Middle East Media Research Institute
» Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA)
» Militant Islam Monitor
» Morning Star
» Muhammad Tube
» The Muslim Issue
» Muslim World Today
» Myths and Facts
» National Vietnam & Gulf War Veterans Coalition
» NewsReal Blog
» No Mosques At Ground Zero
» Nonie Darwish
» Northeast Intelligence Network
» Occidental Jihadist
» One Jerusalem
» Open Speech
» Operation Give
» Operation Gratitude
» Organiser
» Orwellian Culture
» Palestinian Media Watch
» PamelaGeller.com
» Panun Kashmir
» Pedestrian Infidel
» The People's Cube
» The People of the Book
» Persecution Project
» Political Islam
» Politically Incorrect
» Politiskt Inkorrekt
» Q Society of Australia
» Radio Farda
» Radio Jihad
» RAWA: Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
» Raymond Ibrahim
» Red Alerts
» Refugee Resettlement Watch
» Religion of Peace
» Republican Riot
» Reuters Middle East Watch
» The “Reverend” Jim Sutter
» SANE: Society of Americans for National Existence
» The Second Draft
» Shire Network News
» SITE Intelligence Group
» Small Wars Journal
» Smoke-Filled World
» The Snooper Report
» Snow Report Blog
» StandWithUs
» Steve Lackner
» The Stiletto Blog
» STOP! Honour Killings
» Sultan Knish
» Tell the Children the Truth
» Terrorism Awareness Project
» Theodore’s World
» Tom Gross Media
» Translating Jihad
» Una via per Oriana
» Undaunted
» United States Central Command
» Urban Infidel
» Walid Shoebat
» Winds of Jihad
» Women Against Shariah
» World Council for the Cedars Revolution
» Yid With Lid
» Z Street
» Zilla of the Resistance
» Zionist Conspiracy
Crucified Again by Raymond IbrahimDavid LittmanOriana Fallaci Thousands of Deadly Terror Attacks Since 9/11The incredible Reza Aslan automated insult generator! iGoogle Gadget
Site Meter