Ahmadinejad threatens Europe over Israel

1)Israel is run by terrorists, yet Iran is the one making threats. Uh huh.

2)Again, the Holocaust was a fraud. OK.

3)The Israelis should return to their original countries. No mention of all those Muslims who should leave the West. I see.

I conclude that A-Nut is suffering from an advanced case of syphillis since he is totally irrational.

Don't touch! The monkey might be rabid!

This little twit thinks America is far away, but he forgets about the 3 battle groups sitting in the persian gulf, the third just arrived, not to mention the huge buildup in the mediterranean that is supposedly for the UN in lebanon (about 10x what is needed). The last time I checked the Persian Gulf was not "far away", Mr. Amamadjihad must have failed geography class, oops almost forgot the earth is flat according to the Saudis.

Hi All,

I doubt if this guy is irrational. Ahmadijenad's rant may sound completely nuts to us but completely logical to Muslims around the world and by repeating the argument that Europeans created Israel to compensate the perceived Nazi criminality(which he will never accept that it actually happened since that will generate sympathy towards Jews) he is reinforcing their beliefs. If and when there is an showdown, Muslim minds are shut off for every other argument as these rantings are internalized by them. I think all the saner elements in Israel should start making extreme statements in response to these rantings so that nobody in the world is in doubt as to what their intentions are if they feel they are pushed to a corner including nuking Iran.,

RT

It's really depressing how a nation like Iran is run by diseased minds. A-Nut acts like parasites are eating his brain and all those old goat mule-ahs surrounding him are probably half senile. It sure would be nice if a revolution took place there and restore that country to respectability because I doubt even their French, Russian and Chinese friends have any real respect for a country run by rabid dogs.

You know that IAMNUTJOB fella is really SHORT. I mean REALLY REALLY short. I am talkin Napolean complex, butt of all the "short" jokes, uses the "boys" urinal short.

I am not tall. But I am taller than he is. And I am not interested in wiping any countries off the map, but burning a mosque or two might be a fun Saturday night.

This is like the Al-Sadr situation. Had we blown him away in 2003 (when he deserved it) this would one less thorn in our side. Same strategy should apply here. Take shorty out along with the mad mullahs. There will be some reprecussions, but I would rather deal with them now before they enlist anymore Hugo Chavez leftist types who are looking to make a big splash in world politics.

Iran has interfered in Iraq. That alone should be basis for military action.

I have had a couple beers and been playing Doom3. I am ready to kill.

Ahmadinejad is really going off the deep end. He may be able to get away with threatening Europe, but Israel will incinerate him.

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Oops forgot the main point, by threatening Eurabia Iran, in away, is biting the hand that feeds it. This regime needs to be stopped, Ronald Reagan must be rolling over in his grave watching the US drop the ball on so many fronts in the war with islam. Once this vertically challenged tyrant has a nuke he will surely try to cause an apocolypse for the return of his precious 12th imam. This madman must be stopped by someone, and soon.

Israel was founded on "claims about the Holocaust" for which the Palestinians were paying the price, he told a rally.

ahmanislamobiatch.. listen UP!

The JEWS. That's J.E.W.S. to you paid the price for the Holocaust. let's just keep it as real as we can. The cynicism of the mobot world is clear when it comes to the Holocaust. Exhibit A-Z: Munich Olympics.

Thank God you mooftis are NOTHING BUT TALK!!

AS for us Germans.. Americans.. English and so on.. It takes many Nationb of MILLIONS OF PC-BLINDED MULTIKULTIS TO HOLD US BACK!!!

Islamos! BE WARNED! I am for one CHOMPING AT THE BIT for your blood! I wish to avenge Meir Kahane! You have made great friends of German and Jew! You are forging a UNITED EUROPE SPANNING THE URALS ALL THE WAY THE THE AGARVE!!

Thank you, Islamonazis for Uniting us all.

Ahmenazijaihqad KNOW THIS:

THE HUN IS EITHER AT YOUR KNEE OR **AT YER GODDAMN THROAT**!!

The Hun is still mostly on his knees before you, but muscles are starting to twitch.

WE WILL TURN ON YOU.

Pack up and leave now - for the sake of peace.

I have a feeling the sentiment I express is not just my own - nor is it reserved to Germans.

This guy is beginning to sound like the UN. Threat, threats, and more threats.

When the hell is he going to do something?

it takes a Nation of PC to hold us back -

TEMPORARILY!!!

The longer it takes the worse it will be, and it won't be for us as much as it will be for you.

When you hear US warning you - take it seriously.

Could be another ten years but no matter my age when the time comes..

This man is NO fool. He is simply saying aloud what Muslims have been saying to themselves(and much of it for centuries) and if anything it acts as an eye opener on that for the naive pacifists in our midst.

This IS how they think. It may seem irrational and even psychotic but then so does a lot of their behaviour.

IMHO it is this which delineates them as a human subspecies and leaves me to only one conclusion:
the way of the Neaderthal.

Europe supports Israel? Really? He's joking, right?

Oh wait, there is no humor in Islam.

I'm sure everything Ahmanutjob says makes sense in some sort of 'Islam bizarro world' where logic and facts don't exist. Most of us do have the ability to reason, so naturally he sounds nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.

To show what a mad dog A-Nut is all you have to do is compare him to fellow scum and good pal Kim Jong Ill. Kim says (supposedly) that he regrets his nuke test. Even this nut seems to comprehend a limit. Do we see such comprehension in A-Nut?

All rabid dogs end up the same.

This guy is beginning to sound like the UN. Threat, threats, and more threats.

When the hell is he going to do something?
Posted by: Pelayo

That was a riot. Now, if only Ayatollah Khomenei started to see him the way you do... ;-)

Make that Khamenei - Khomenei is dead. Or he might arise one day from a well in Qum :-)

Oh Lord, anything but having old Satan puss come back from the hell in Qum!

Europe supports Israel? Really? He's joking, right?

Oh wait, there is no humor in Islam.

I'm sure everything Ahmanutjob says makes sense in some sort of 'Islam bizarro world' where logic and facts don't exist. Most of us do have the ability to reason, so naturally he sounds nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.
Posted by: s

Ol' A-nut is bargaining for EVEN MORE! The SILENT MAJORITY in Europe does indeed support Israel but we've been brow-beaten since the 70s when support for Israel became a dirty word.. in the MSM.

Ol' A-Nut knows how the PEOPLE really feel in the WEST!! Those vast missions who dare not speak in public.

ERETZ ISRAEL!!!!

VIVE LA RESISTANCE!!!

[don't worry Israel, we'll always slip you a few super-silent submarines and other more secret weapons.. GLADLY.. and FEEL FREE TO USE THEM when sh*t goes down!]

MisIslamist, he's only saying aloud what many non-Muslims think too. Unfortunate and disgusting, but I think this opinion is actually very prevalent today. Which is why there is little outrage from much of the world. They all agree with him.

Israel is now the pariah of the world, the alleged source of all problems. If only it would cease to exist then all the Muslims around the world will calm down and act like normal, civilised human beings and life would be wonderment and bliss and beauty and light, and la la la la. And then when Israel's gone, they'll turn their sights on the even bigger source of all problems ever - America.

The iranian generals can hum Queens "Another one
bites the dust" as thier nuclear sites are
evaporated.....

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1237920,00.html

I fear, given the tenor and statements being made in recent months by Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice do not portend that my country is taking Iran seriously. If the Democrats win in November, we will be looking at a paralyzed Chief Executive who will be facing impeachment proceedings and not able to muster the energy needed to face down this monster. The DhimmiCraps certainly are not interested in effecting a robust foreign policy that will elevate our deterrence and beat down terrorist states like Iran. No, that party will be content to wallow in the kind of drivel that comes out of what passes for the minds of our 68ers come to power and of age.

We are in trouble and we should not be at this moment of weakness had more people taken Islam seriously.

I checked out the website of A-Nut to see what else he might be ranting on but of course he's too busy to provide an updated tirade. It does have some links to other Iranian bigwigs, including "The Leader"-Khamanei. Same sort of drivel as A-Nut, plus you get to see a picture of The Leader next to Satan (Imam Khomeini). One would think they'd do a better job of presenting their viewpoint (warped as it may be) over the Internet to inspire their minions.

It is better than North Korea's website at least.

Barely 50% of the population of Iran is Persian. A Kurdish autonomous region, or even ideally an independent state, carved out of northern Iraq (with guarantees made by the Kurds to Kurdistan's guarantor, the United States, that a Chaldo-Assyrian enclave will be included in that state, and that the Kurds will allow the Christians to be armed, and to do nothing to harm them) would do much to disrupt the hold of the Iranian state over its Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis, Arabs.

That would happen in two ways. First, an independent Kurdish state would inspire Kurds in Iran, possibly aided with materiel from Kurdistan, to rise against the Islamic Republic of Iran. Aided by Kurds in Kurdistan, they would now have a much better chance. And at the same time, other minorities -- those Arabs in Khuzistan, those Baluchis, those Azeris -- might also be inspired by the behavior of the Kurds, and choose, possibly overlapping in time or at the same time, to rise up against the same enemy. How could the army of Iran, which hardly possesses an air force with planes that can fly, possibly deal with so many different rebellions simultaneously? It can't. And that should worry the Islamic Republic of Iran. And it should be carefully considreed in Washington, where there appears to be very little thought going in to the matter of how to bring Iran to its heels, or to its senses.

The Jews should go back where they came from? I thought that was Israel. Oh, but he forgets about close to one million Jews forced out of Arab lands where they lived for hundreds, some thousands of years. Where will they go?

"The Palestinians" include Jews who were there before the Arab conquests I suppose? And what of the Greeks?

There were millions of people displaced after WWII, many losing everything, and the Muslims are the only ones strapping bombs on their children. I agree with the moniker "islamisbad"!

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

It seems to me that Bush is a smart person who is putting us on. There is more at stake than his legacy of enlightening Muslims. If he brings the troops home or withdraws them to bunkers in Kurdistan, Iran and Iraq will erupt and the entire Middle East will probably follow. He is on the record professing his faith in humanity and probably feels that way in his heart.

Abdulwahab Alkebsi wrote a counterpoint to Mr. Spencer in April 2003 about the alternatives to democracy in the Arab world; Despite differences in political views and backgrounds, all participants agreed that there is no way out of the dire situation in which Arabs find themselves except through democracy.

So, if democracy in Iraq fails, there is ‘no way out’. The fact that we have armed and trained 400,000 Iraqis on every side of the religious divide makes the situation bad. Throw in Iranian nukes and things get worse. Now think about Israel, Pakistan, and India.

Mr. Bush is spending our lives and treasure in a righteous attempt to avoid a meltdown that could dwarf the human misery caused by Saddam Hussein. He is acting in the best interest of humanity and in defense of his idealistic vision for the world. But his actions are not in the best interest of the American people. And they are unsustainable.

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, by the smoke, and by the brimstone; is becoming realistic. The President knows this, and he should be cut some slack on a personal level for trying to avoid it. But it is what it is. The way out has been long established.

Limes,

I've met President Bush, back in the 1980's when I was in the Air Force and he was on the campaign trail with his father. And, you're right, he's a smart guy that's putting us on...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.colm

I wish I could believe that somebody -- the President, the Congress, the CIA, the NSA, the Democrats, or the Republicans -- is at the wheel, but I wonder if anyone anywhere has any good ideas for stopping the apocalyptic disasters that seem to be approaching.

Does the U.S. government have a plan of what to do if a nuke goes off in Israel or Europe or America? It may be that there is no good thing to do, and officials are in some sense just waiting for whatever comes next and hoping more or less blindly that "someone else" will take care of things. Or it may be that Israel or America are coming near to taking drastic action, but are waiting for the last possible moment, since any actions taken will likely have as their only virtue that they might possibly be a bit less titanically disastrous than some other forestalled alternative.

Even if the West turns Iran into glass, that won't contain WMD, which are only becoming ever more available. If the West doesn't turn Iran into glass, what will be done? Will we treat Iran like Dresden in World War II and burn it to the ground with conventional weapons? That seems pretty unlikely. Will we try to occupy it and start a new government? That seems far-fetched. Will we bomb it from the air until they say, "uncle"?

All the options seem far-fetched, yet something has to be done to contain WMD, and not just in Iran.

There is the rest of the Muslim world, there is North Korea, and WMD keep advancing and developing and will appear ever more quickly in ever more varieties, available to ever more people at ever lower cost and ever more destructive power. That, unfortunately, is the downside of the miracle of technology's accelerating advances.

I don't see any sign that anyone has a plan to meet that challenge. I don't know if it can be met. The only glimmer of a possible solution I see is the development of an incredibly intrusive world-wide surveillance, one beyond anything to which Westerners are accustomed. As WMD technology develops and becomes more easily accessible, surveillance might have to become correspondingly more and more intrusive, and technological research have to be under more and more public control than it is now. Perhaps all that surveillance and control could be done democratically and so as to retain substantial freedoms. Maybe it would not have to be like Brave New World or 1984. But I see no way safely to manage the advance of WMD technology over the coming decades, apart from establishing an almost unimaginably more transparent society, one with far fewer privacies than we currently are accustomed to.

From Hugh's note above:

"...It can't. And that should worry the Islamic Republic of Iran. And it should be carefully considreed in Washington, where there appears to be very little thought going in to the matter of how to bring Iran to its heels, or to its senses.
..."

Very little thought? Zero!! Voice of America was sending rap music last I heard. The Iranian resistance TV stations here in the US getting zero support from State.

CIA helping dissenters? Arming them? Probably not - more concerned with trashing Bush and featherbedding. Farsi is probably an unknown code at the CIA.

We should formalize a war with this country and get it over with. Its an Airforce-Navy job that would take less than a week if the military is given free rein.

Jimmy Bones --
So you are saying we bomb from the air and don't use ground forces -- or use only proxy ground forces, Iranian rebels? If there's an option, maybe that's the most likely. Or maybe we could skip the air war, and simply fund Iranian rebels.

An expansion of the war to Iran would of course mean a more vigilant approach to immigration, but that should be done anyway.

"He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin."
Message to Ahmadinejad: Jews allready in their country of origin.

"why should the Palestinians pay the price for it".
I don't know. You, the muslims, told them to leave in '48 on the promise that you'd kill the jews for them so they left. It's bad karma I guess.
Actually, my own family had to leave their home and country in '45. Though they went from one comunist hell to a lesser, but still, comunist hell, they still managed to arange a life for them selves, and us. Now, 60 years later, the family is in good shape. But see, even comunist hell is still leaps and bounds better than islam-hell where even 3rd generation (of so called) palestinian refugees doesn't have citizenship in the contries they live in. Hence, the palestinians are not paying the price for whatever happend in '48. They are just paying the price for being muslims. But then, Ahmadinejad, you allready know that.

"I have had a couple beers and been playing Doom3. I am ready to kill."

Mr Ahmadinejad called Israel's leaders a "group of terrorists" and appeared to threaten any country that supports it.

"You imposed a group of terrorists... on the region. It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals... This is an ultimatum. Don't complain tomorrow."

ERETZ ISRAEL!!! Ahemdinazi..you call them the terrorists now?! Have you NO shame? Why do I even ask?

Your words and the actions of the Palis serve but to make us move CLOSER to the JEWISH STATE of ERETZ ISRAEL.

Call that ISRAELIZM, biaotch!!

See, the Israelis, Jews.. they know how to be friends and allies to people outside their ethnicity and their Faith.

They never ONCE bombed a German Biergarten - even AFTER the Holocaust. They have WAY too much HUMANITY in them to do something like that. When they would have had every reason to do so for eternity. They were for the most part able to forgive - whoch is NOT the same as FORGET, i remind my German brethren.

Israel was the ONLY Nation who aided Germany in liberating our hijacked Lufthansa plane in Mogadisciou. And that is something *I* will never forget. All the Israelis I've ever methave been totally *COOL* and 99% of the American Jews as well. Plus I've lived among Hasids in Brooklyn and they sure treated me right!

Yes, I've had discussions with these people re. the past but I never was made to feel in the defensive with NO WAY OUT. They merely WANTED TO KNOW **WHY**. Not that I have the answers. But I tried. And that's all that was needed too.

Sarcastic-minded Jews have said to me.. You Germans got rid of the Jews from your country.. people who considered themselves good patriotic Germans and now you replace them with moslems who mean you nothing good at all. And we share a painful laugh. Because it's so true!

that Hitler was some demon indeed and the Iranian people would be well-advised to LEARN from us rather than repeat history.

BECAUSE IN THE END HISTORY will REPEAT ITSELF ON THEM!! Like it did on us.

It is sickening that the very History that culminated in the Holocaust is now being cynically exploited by the Leftist MSM/politic Establishment and their moslem clients AGAINST the VICTIMS of this very History. what pain this must cause to righteous Jews all over. I know it pains me to no end and I am not even a Jew. All I can say is as one German Citizen: NOT IN MY NAME!

The Europeans have absolutely NO RIGHT to question a viable and militarily capable Jewish State. Nor do they have a right to undermine it in any way!

We are the very reason as much as are the moslems who drove the Jews off their original Homeland millennia ago. They killed off the Jews in Mecca and Medina.

But enought of them escaped to Europe where they survived persecution enough to regroup in the Holy Land after WW II.

ISRAEL IS THERE TO STAY - long after you are dead, Ahmedinazi!

As Israel goes so shall we. And neither shall perish for the pleasure of the cult of Darkness.

traeh.. you have raised some very cogent and troublesome issues. On point.

I think that resolve is the ONLY way to contain these future threats. Basically M.AD. remains the order of the day to contain things.

They may set off a WMD here or there and it's the measure of our response that will detemnine whether or not the enemy will think again before launching another attack.

PS. I can't wait for Benyamin Netanyahu who used to be Israel's ambassador to Germany, to run the place. He's a no-sense guy.

The enemy knew they could mess with this Olmert fellow s they did. They won't do the same without serious consequences once Netanyahu is in power.

Mr Ahmadinejad said: "Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it."

He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin.

Judea and Samaria ***IS*** their country of origin, you bastard!

Mr Ahmadinejad said: "Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it."

He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin.

Judea and Samaria ***IS*** their country of origin, you bastard!

As was Mecca and Medina before your pedo "prophet" started his little jihad against tehm and the rest of Mankind.

So if you *really* want them to go back to their ORIGINAL COUNTRIES you better make some room in Sorry Ar*serabia.

For one thing I can guarantee you they wouldn't be short of funds give such high oil revenues that they enjoy over there. Their track record bears out my words.

Ahmadinejad threatens Europe over Israel

More from the Al-Qods Day festivities. "Iran warns of revenge over Israel," from the BBC:

Dude, you have *NO* idea who you are f•cking with! Do *NOT* talk to us like that. We WILL take your best shot.

Maybe we need to take your best shot - in order to wake up our government and institutions.

Just know that once you do - IT'S ON *YOU* what will happen next!

This is one German Citizen/USA LEGAL RESIDENT letting you and all muftis know you better walk the walk. So far all you have done is talk the talk.. bioatch!

*WE* choose who were are friends with and whom we support and we see no need to discuss our reasons why with the likes of you.

BACK TO THE BOGS!!

BBC Tehran correspondent Frances Harrison says the tone of the speech was hardline, even by Mr Ahmadinejad's standards.

is that dhimmi BBC correspondent trying to scare us..? Whoohooohoo!

Frances.. if you're so impressed why don't you assume the position in his harem? But know that *WE* the people see through the bluster. BBC can pack it up and GO.

STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE, BBC and the rest of the dhimmedia!

We don't give a fook!

Bring it, baby! *C'mon* is all I can say to you eeslamic biatches. Let's meet in the tunnel. Just you and us. I bet we'll find things in common between English ManU and Liverpool followers as much as B. Dortmunders and Kölners.. We may fight one another to the Blood over a wonderful yet silly game that we all love but when the chips are down, Ahmedineboy... I'd hate to be in your shoes. You never know.. even the Dhimmidutch might turn on you and join the REST OF EUROPE!

Either way.. we'll MARCH ON TEHRAN if we have to. All I am saying give your country a chance to stay eeslamic as it is now and give it a REST!

Once we get going.. we are slow starters for sure.. but once we do.. you can throw the all the UN stuff OUT THE FREAKING WINDOW!! We will F*CK YOU UP BIG TIME!! We haven't had a good fight in Europe for over sixty years and we are savages just yearning to UNLEASH a bit of the old in and out on your sorry behinds!

DO NOT TEMPT US!

So I ask you Punkmadenenazi.. DO YOU FEEL LUCKY TODAY?

In March a new movie, "the 300" is supposed to be out. It's about how three hundred Spartans, including one of the two Spartan kings, Leonidas, and a few thousand allies, held off an army of 250,000 Persians (Iranians) for a few days at the narrow pass of Thermopylae in 480 B.C. Amazingly, it actually happened.

If not for the Spartans, and a little later the incredible victory of the Greek fleet at Salamis over a much larger Persian fleet, we might never have had Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Phidias, Thucydides, Pericles and so on, and Western civilization itself. The incredible victories of the Athenians over the Persians, at Marathon in 490, and at Thermopylae, Salamis and elsewhere in 480-479, led directly to the incredible golden age of Athens.

Maybe the best book about the great battles that set the stage for Western civilization is The Greco-Persian Wars, by Peter Green. Plutarch and Herodotus are (of course) excellent original sources. And Plutarch is pretty useful for getting a feel for the greatness of individual Greeks. Then again, one first should read Robert Spencer's The Truth about Muhammad. Then start with the Xenophon's Anabasis (an exciting account of how ten thousand Greeks successfully fought their way out of Persia in 401 B.C.) and go on to Plutarch, Herodotus, Green and others and discover in detail just how huge is the contrast between Islamic culture and the ancient Greek culture that, together with ancient Rome and the Judeo-Christian tradition, forms our civilization.

October 21, 2006
Ahmadinejad threatens Europe over Israel

More from the Al-Qods Day festivities. "Iran warns of revenge over Israel," from the BBC:

SREW-WOOOH the BBC and their stiff upper lips.. If these bioatches nuke ANY country in EUROPE we will consider it an attack ON ALL OF US!! Not the politicians. of course.. nor the press.. BUT US, THE PEOPLE!!!

I know I WILL!

There will be burning mosks.. riots in the streets.. You have NO IDEA what you are asking for. The eeslamos are buying into the dhimmi picture painted by our MSM a LOT MORE THAN WE DO!!! eeslamos.. our press is FOOLING you! They may have no idea.. they may think we are brow-beaten... but I say to you.. The REAL EUROPE is united as we have NEVER EVER BEEN!!.. From the Urals to the AGARVE!! And past the Bering Seas! We shall stand UNITED. They want jehad.. WE WANT A GOOD OL' FASHIONED CRUSADE!!

Let's get it on, boys!

In March a new movie, "the 300" is supposed to be out. It's about how three hundred Spartans, including one of the two Spartan kings, Leonidas, and a few thousand allies, held off an army of 250,000 Persians (Iranians) for a few days at the narrow pass of Thermopylae in 480 B.C. Amazingly, it actually happened.

If not for the Spartans, and a little later the incredible victory of the Greek fleet at Salamis over a much larger Persian fleet, we might never have had Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Phidias, Thucydides, Pericles and so on, and Western civilization itself. The incredible victories of the Athenians over the Persians, at Marathon in 490, and at Thermopylae, Salamis and elsewhere in 480-479, led directly to the incredible golden age of Athens.

Maybe the best book about the great battles that set the stage for Western civilization is The Greco-Persian Wars, by Peter Green. Plutarch and Herodotus are (of course) excellent original sources. And Plutarch is pretty useful for getting a feel for the greatness of individual Greeks. Then again, one first should read Robert Spencer's The Truth about Muhammad. Then start with the Xenophon's Anabasis (an exciting account of how ten thousand Greeks successfully fought their way out of Persia in 401 B.C.) and go on to Plutarch, Herodotus, Green and others and discover in detail just how huge is the contrast between Islamic culture and the ancient Greek culture that, together with ancient Rome and the Judeo-Christian tradition, forms our civilization.
Posted by: traeh

Dude.. you are amazing.. where have you been??! RIGHT ON!!

germaninamerica:
You sure express the anger I feel toward Amadinejad and I'm glad there are some right-of-center Germans out there like you. Sometimes it seems like almost all Europeans are left-of-center. Seems like they need a few more righties to balance out the debate a bit more and add some backbone in defense of liberal civilization at a time when rapid growth of Muslim population in Europe and negative population growth among non-Muslim Europeans mean Islamic theocracy threatens Europe's coming decades. (Sheesh, a mouthful.)

I am pleased to report that I have converted all my German boyfriends from multi-culti to right-right-of-the-center :-)

Germans only need to learn better the Muslims (which they have now plenty of opportunity unfortunately) to understand that Germany is actually sitting in the same boat with Israel (and Serbia). Thanks to Muslim arrogance and violence, this is already happening. But this is what other European nations need to learn as well, hopefully before is too late.

I just wish that there was ONE european leader who had the testicles to openly defy the islamic maggot and to dare him to start a war.

Whatever he says it is quite apparent that these lunatics will use nuclear weapons rather than use them purely as a threat.

Years ago I was playing Civilisation with my children. I was miles ahead and well into the 20th century and my children had become allies in an attempt to stop me entering the final phase. Almost every major city had nuclear weapons but for defensive use only as I had no intention of ever using them. However I was called away for several weeks due to work and the children were upset as the gmae could not be finished. I suggested to them that they place me under computer control.

When I returned home I was met by them with stony faces. So I asked what was wrong. As soon as the computer took over my player the very next move he launched nukes vs everyone and won the following move. I had forgotten that the computer did not know compromise and was a ruthless opponent once it had an advantage and this advantage was a total lack of morality.

So I went back to the savegame and saw it for myself. It was really very frightening as city after city launched. But it worked as there was only some mopping up left and my opponents never had a chance to launch even one in reply.
A game? yes but an illustration of what could be.

Hit THOSE sites NOW!!!
If the French send missiles after israeli jets then hit them with antiradiation missiles.

The real problem is that we Europeans are unfamiliar with weapons, our armies are made up of a handful of volunteers and although pacifism is quite dead, nobody really likes to fight and die for his country.

In short, in case of war we will have a real problem and only America can save us, but after all the foul words, will they do that a third time?

Probably the most distressing thing about Europe(and I am no great observer) is the apparent tendency to elect left wing leaders (spain and Italy) This is what really scares me as it means that the population who vote really do not seem to have a clue about the seriousness of the situation.

I have the impression that by the time europe "girds its loins" and readies itself for the long fight, the 6th column insurgency from european Muslims will sap its strenght UNLESS it has the courage of its convictions and Deports/isolates/concentrates all muslims.

h yeah, you girls go watch that movie, but make sure you take plenty of tissues with you, because our little American friend here will probably cry a lot when she sees her aunties and uncles getting killed".

Damn.
Posted by: americaningermany,
you know who ever said that is a fool, because they do not see the larger picture. the little monkey man from iran acts nuts that westrn leaders and the elites of the EU,UN etc, do not take him seriously. but then look what happened when these same types ignored the strange man with moustache from Austria.. Europe is on the verge of a wake up call. too bad they do not learn from their history, its going to repeat itself unfortunately very soon.

UNLESS it has the courage of its convictions and Deports/isolates/concentrates all muslims. MisIslamist that is only part of the equation..there are some people on this list advocate only this deporting theme, its a defensive act, but the best defense is offense. too bad war is being fought pc, otherwise the sadr madman would of been toast a few years ago, they should of bombed the hell out of him when they had the chance.. too much hand wringing, and worry what will the UN,EU say, get the pain over with, use all your might, like what the allies did during WW2. take the fight to them. do not let them chose your actions, but keep them unbalanced by making them make their own mistakes in defensesive actions. you never, never allow them to call the shots.

Zena I have elsewhere here posted my personal view. It is a watered down version of what I feel will eventually be necessary.

This latest tame view is that there is ONLY one way to treat Muslims: moderate or die. I did not say this above as I did not wish to push my luck here too far as such posts are usually deleted.

You can imagine what I feel may become necessary when the cold war becomes total war.

MisIslamist, your observation is almost correct. I want, however, add a twist to your thinking. It is an unwritten tradition in Europe to uphold an ideology (communism, Nazism, Fascism and all other weird and repulsive kinds of collectivism) until it is absolutely clear that it is a complete failure. The idea of having many cultures in your society clearly hasn’t reached that state yet, neither the idea that leftist policies just don’t work. What Europe needs, is not necessarily a second Churchill, but a clear signal that, for instance, the idea of retreating from Iraq doesn’t make you a target is incorrect. That idea can be demolished by a huge explosion in Rome. And given the self-defeating nature of jihad, an attack on Rome will be a matter of time.

Combating ideas is more important than combating the actual jihad groups, given the fact that the Europeans, with the right ideas, have destroyed all their enemies. After the humiliating defeat of the Ottomans in Austria by the Poles, the Arab/Islamic world was completely destroyed and it took them until the day that we began to buy their oil to recover.

As for Spain and Italy, you can safely consider them as lost territories. Their anti-Americanism finished them off. I hope although, that a sufficient number of Spaniards and Italians will escape to form a free-Spain and free-Italian army for when the action unavoidably gets hot.

Dr W( or should I say Dr Doom 0 :))..the idea of combatting ideas is only as valid as the stability fo the state which maintains them.

Nazi germany was an exception as Hitler repudiated the germans upon his death and thus national socialism slowly withered and essentially died. But ONLY because the state also did.
Communism has also withered but do not kid yrself that it is dead as it now works through a facade of democaracy(in Russia). While I doubt that it could ever be such a problem as it was, it still can create major obstacles.

Islam on the other hand is akin to a plague. It is not confined to any one state and while we can wipe out any/all Islamic states we would still have enough left over to start it all over again.

So in addition to stating what I think should be done with Muslims I will add the absolute sin (in my book as I never destroy or rid msyelf of any book even Watch Tower rubbish) of banning totally and comprehensivel the Koran and its companion rubbish. I am against censorship as I am against killing but I feel that we are being driven into a corner where trhe choices (if we wish to survive) are rapidly becoming limited.

This is essentially what I have said before(and been deleted). We need to wage TOTAL WAR to have an even chance and we need to do it soon.

How did Elmore Leonard end up in the middle of all this?

A future United States/Iran War will be known simply as "Get Shorty".

Dr. Wolffenstein

You asked if Americans would really like to rescue Europe a third time? Give us a good reason, after all the insults, condescension, and invective tossed our way continuously from your continent why we should do this? There are only two reasons why I would say we should do it, and neither reason is altruistic, by the way. The first is that it would not be a good thing for the Ummah to get its hands on French nuclear weapons. The second reason is that any time territory is directly added to the Ummah, it gets stronger. It's bad policy to let the Borg gain strength. The only Americans who now admire Europe are the liberal Dhimmicrats and the Far Left. I used to admire Europe a long time ago when I was a Gramscian. Not any more.

did you guys ever see the movie "Team America"?
americaningermany when l saw itat my one conservative
brother's place along with my older liberal sister, we all laughed so hard had tears coming down. it is graphic for youngsters, but totally hilarious and so true! l went out and bought that video, and that is good for me as l can count on my one hasd how many videos l have actually bought. l prefer books.
China controls Kim, and its china and russia's way of trying to bring the west down. the only thing working in our way is that Christanity and democracy is coming in the back door into China with all that prosperity, a new middle class will demand more rights, and there is no allah to say no.

Hello,

I wonder if anyone went and pointed the finger at the American government for funding Jihadists in Afghanistan during the 80's? Did anyone point the finger at the American government when they funded right wing factions in South America to over throw socialist/communist/facist governments? or right wing groups to over throw communist/pro-communist groups in Europe? or even the former Pahlavi family to over throw the former president Mosadagh? The guy does not like Israel, he wants to over throw the americans government have best well known to do this then any other government I have ever read about.

As for the Holocaust there are many other genocides that no one even mentions as much as the Holocaust, I thought that the American government wants to bring democracy therefore I am to deny it if i wish, Ahmedinejad can deny it if he likes, infact anyone can. Isn't this what democracy is all about?

Again as for the "Nukem" and "Let's drop bombs" these days have long gone now, it is time to be realisitc Iran is a regional power. Engage talks, look for peace rather then violence, and last time i checked Israel has accusationa by the U.N for Sabra and Shateela massacres and they have never even been sanctioned by constant U.S vetos.

Remember three things:

1. Iran is ruled by a three sided process, Ahmadinejad is not the real ruler, he does the bidding of the clerics.

2. We have enough fire power nearby to crush Iran. The world does not realize we have never had to use 100% of our strength, it scares me to even think about that much death headed toward anyone.

3. Any use of even a small WND against us or a friend and we would crush entire countries. It would be the only way to make sure no one ever tries it again.

Again, We will crush. believe me these days have died and you can no longer afford another front. Yes we all know that your power has not been fully used in a war. But with your fourth generation weaponry i am suprised to see the U.S number of deaths in Iraq to 2,778 untill i see that number to stop rising then we can discuss your true power.

Ahmedinejad does not rule no. Ayatollah khamanaei issues the order but it is also judged by a guardian council.

Iran has a Wilayat Al faqeeh system. Every jurisprudent (Faqih) has wilayah (guardianship) over non-litigious affairs. Non-litigious affairs are technically called "al-omour al-hesbiah". As for general affairs with which social order is linked, wilayah of a Faqih and enforcement of wilayah depend on certain conditions one of which is popularity of acceptability of Faqih among majority of momeneen. (believers)

I've been in poor health for years but it is slowly improving. When my stamina increases sufficiently, I intend to start volunteering for political organizations; I'm thinking of the Conservative Party (in Canada) and a Jewish organization.

Voter turn-out is not good in Canada and it could probably be improved in other countries, as well. It seems to me that more of us need to make our voices heard in the public realm. I personally feel that I should become an activist (in some small way) and I hope I will have the physical strength to "walk the walk".

Shia...slight difference between democracy which allows you to have ANY opinion , no matter how stupid, and the truth which although static in the eyes of god can be quite dynamic in the eyes of the viewer escpecially if reported by people who see no harm in lying to kafirs.

Your first paragraph points about the US are probably valid( I am too tired to check up) but that is irrelevant to myself as I see only a choice between lesser evils and that is why I am wholeheartedly on the side of the west. I prefer a corrupt west with a chance to improve rather than the rigid and backward structure of Islam with no evolutionary capacity.

Your last paragraph is absolute rubbish I am afraid as it shows no knowledge of the history of israel. As for yr"Engage talks, look for peace rather then violence" that is so bloody stupid that I can only guess where your allegiances do lie. I see NO ONE but Iran uttering threats and I see mostly Muslims committing violence. If yr name is relevant go back to Imam ali.

I waste my time.

I see we have a taqiyya-spewing bot making an appearance on the site, called "Shia." Should we feed this beast or should we ignore it? The interesting thing about his comment regarding our being tied down in Iraq is that being in Iraq CAN become an invaluable launching pad for intensive operations against Iran, especially if based in the Kurdish region. I believe that the Iranian's comments about our miseries in Iraq mask a profound panic.

We must keep our forward bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and resist the Sirens' Song coming from the Left that we must abandon the country. Iran would have to fight a war on many fronts too, instead of beating (or attempting to)back assaults from the sea, because that is really our only option if we quit our lilly pads over there. We cannot rely on the Turks for overflight or egress. Turkey is GONZO as an ally and friend. We cannot rely on Pakistan, as recent political developments from that quarter illustrate emphatically. We cannot rely on being able to have bases in Saudi Arabia, as that country's recently emerging ties with France indicate. And France is also now an ally of Iran's.

Our only points of attack are from where we are now and from the sea. Let's not squander a golden opportunity to break the back of revived jihad's most robust agent: the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Shia,

Wow, that's too much information for me to digest in the morning, but, I'll re-read it after I drink some coffee (Arabic coffee, of course).

Yup, too many posts are just, "Nuke 'em all" comments. There has to be a better way.

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

FredIsinglass,

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Shia. Ronin and I had a thread chat going last night, and the boy can hold his own in a debate... Just giving you a heads up...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Engage talks, look for peace rather then violence,
Shia you do not talk to regimes like iran, you say the US/West cannot use another front? do not mistake restraint with lack of will, but actually to Western standards itis total strenght. you see in the West women are not required to cover up so that weak minded muslim men do not rape them. Western men have strenght of control, but if iran even attempts to work thorugh the hiz boys, muslims will be the loser in the next great clash of civilizztion.
your questions of" Israel's accusationa by the U.N for Sabra and Shateela" they have been proven false.
You Sia forget about what the turks did to the Armenians, you forget what muslims did to the Hindu,and then to themselves, ie Dafur, so dont preach about talking peace with muslim facist monsters. it is in koran, aka muslim war manual. muslims make peace treaty when they are weak, but break it when they have more stenght. but hey most of you muslims rather kill by ambush, sad bunc of losers.

lol. FredIsinglass i admire that you know what Taqiyah is rarely have i heard people mention it in blogs. But all is fair in politics after all we have been well known to do taqiyah quiet sometime.

Saudi arabia go with france over the U.S? very very unlikely. Please read "House of Bush, House of Saud." it is a very interesting book.

Sir may i remind you there will never really be a free kurdistan for you to even have a base there. Remember the borders? Turkey, Sryia, Iran and Iraq. No sea? no land transport? they have to basically be so friendly in order to have exports/imports these nieghbours can be very very nasty.

And if you want to build a base in the middle of the sunni heartland of Iraq with Iran right next door and Sryia, well i wish you luck with that lol. Sir till now i speak peace, i do not wish to bring true reality upon you. Iran is the only winner out of the Iraq war.

Let's imagine a scenario that Iran does fund "Terrorism" in Iraq. Why not? A bunch of radical sunni groups attacking american soilders tieing them down with constant mortar shelling, suicide bombings, and what not. afghanistan same story constant attacking so that NATO forces need refinforcements. Iran makes money by selling weapons to these idiotic radical sunni extremists who actually think Iran will allow a sunni power to rise up lol. Keep America busy Make money, step up the nuclear enrichment, satisfy good old Russia with sea trade which is up 300% and China with oil and let's not forget, you do not want to piss off China.

Zena, I'm muslim, never really raped one before lol.

Secondly Sharon was summoned on a court case during 2002 which was vetoed by the U.S

Third, Muslims are born Muslim, they are human and I said Islam is good some may follow it correctly some may interpit it wrong.

As for these massacres Ohttomans were ruthless i agree and i dislike them and i believe they are won of the countries whom ruined Islam. Secondly As for India, well maybe they did it in the name of Islam i am sure not all muslims support killings, atleast i do not.

For speaking similar to Iran's regime, there is always more then one side to a story. Try looking at other news resources rather then the western ones.

Shia says "I'm muslim, never really raped one before " oh really, that is an odd admission. you many pakis who were arrested for rape in western countries, said they never really raped, the women asked for it. like l said in the koran aka military guide, muslims only make treaty when they are weak.
Peace is only achieved with a total victory, aka WW2. you have to go in and crush the enemy so hard, they will be begging for their lives, the ones that do make it. you take the battle to them, you do not allow them to call the shots.
once oil money runs out for muslims, they will be defanged, and go back to sleeping with their camels.

Zena, here is the refrence please also check Wikipedia and Amnesty's website.

In its February 21, 1983, issue, Time published a story implying Sharon was directly responsible for the massacres. Sharon sued Time for libel in American and Israeli courts. Although the jury concluded that the Time story included false allegations, they found that Time had not acted with "actual malice" and did not award any damages.

On June 18, 2001, relatives of the victims of the Sabra massacre began proceedings in Belgium to have Ariel Sharon indicted on war crimes charges. In June 2002, a Brussels Appeals Court rejected the lawsuit because the law was subsequently changed under heavy U.S. pressure to disallow such lawsuits unless a Belgian citizen is involved.

Shia,

Be sure to tell him about the practice of taqiyya constitutes a lack of faith and trust in God because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from danger is fearful of humans, when he should be fearful of God only.

Just thought I'd chime in while sipping on this cup of delicious coffee...

I'll be cheering for ya' in the debate that I see brewing here...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Zena, i hope not all westerners do sound like you lol. Otherwise there will be no peace for quiet sometime.

There is a problem with dark crazy minds like
Ahmadinejad. It's hard to take him seriously because he's nuts. But on the other hand - who know's what he is capable of doing.

Bulldog, Taqiyah is bieng plain human.

For example, When saddam ruled of Iraq, shia were forced to pray behind sunni imams and they did, if they did not he would endanger all his family if not his whole tribe. Pray and then plan to strike later on. This was the best method. Some other Shia Ayatollahs however were not like that, Like Ayatollah Mohammad Baqir al sadr, Ayatollah Mohammad baqir Al Hakeem, whom went out and called upon their followers to engage Saddam. But that was a weak force that cannot fight a powerful army supplied with Tanks and including powerful funding from nieghbouring arab countries to crush the rise up. Again dying won't do much, saving yourself and attacking when it is right is the way.

Shia,

Yup, you're right about that, being dead won't do you any good.

Come to think of it, a lot of early Christians practiced Taqiyya when they were being hunted down by the Jewish authorities and Roman guards...

Come to think of it, a lot of Jewish people practiced Taqiyya when they were hiding from the Nazis during World War II...

Come to think of it, the only time that Taqiyya wouldn't be needed, would be in a Democratic society that respects others and their religions as equals..

(The coffee is starting to kick in, but, slowly..)

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Shia

Just one observation to one of your assertions, because the rest of your post is uninteresting, and because your concept of the Holocaust repeats old and tired and deceptive or ignorant cliches:

The Holocaust is unique in that it is the first intentional, planned, systematic design and practice to eliminate an entire racial group, on a huge scale, in modern history.
Nothing else, with the exception of Rwanda, where the tensions between the two groups were economic and social, rather than ethnic/racial, comes even close.

Capisci? The part about intention and planning and systematic, willful application of mass murder of a group of people is the essence of the matter. As such, the decline and almost disappearance of American Indians do not qualify as genocide, despite attempts to make it so.

Interesting.

Again religion is not what kills it is people. Saddam was no Muslim, Saddam was basically a tyrant who wanted things his way so he killed. Hitler was the same, Stalin was the same, but sometimes i believe that maybe when they wrote the context of their idealogy they did not say "let's kill those who defy us" they would not really have any public support or cause a coup.

Democracy is something which god gives us, the respect for other beliefs. There are extremist in every sect, reliigon, group, country, city, town. Let's just hope people can unite and not make them grow into masses.

Shia, my friend I am not going to get into another long drawn out discussion today as it is very nice outside and I have things to do. I will explain my earlier comments to why Iran’s military would be quickly crushed. First, keep in mind it is not because I believe they are weak, poorly trained or cowards. On the contrary by the standards in the Middle East they are a force to be reckoned with, quite modern and against anyone but us quite capable. We do have several tactical advantages; our troops are already on a war footing and have established bases. We have additional troops nearby also on a war footing but removed from the threat of danger. Security measures and force protection are as good as they are going to get. Suicide bomber, mortars etc while inconvenient and do create casualties are simply not enough to severely affect our operations.

From a military standpoint casualties in Iraq are remarkably light. Our military early in this war had the American people ready to except casualties in the hundreds of thousands, the Iraqi’s were simply not up to the task. Could Iran do better? Possible but they have too miraculously send 950,000 soldiers across a wasteland while we have air superiority. Keep in mind strategic bombers would be hitting your entire infrastructure 24 hours a day. I do not think any General anywhere could pull off a land invasion with any military under that type of pressure. Unless you are going to dig up George Patton, you are going to have a real problem

The news reports say we have two carrier groups in the area, someone posted he thought we have three, we would need only one. No my friend as much as you want to believe it can be done, it is simply not possible. The Shia got a bad deal under Sunni control, got it and I am empathetic towards them but if you really want revenge simply wait until the US leaves and crush them. Not my concern, I have no love for them nor hatred. I do have a problem with threats to Americans where ever they are and whatever they think they are doing.

All wars end this one will too. At some point someone has to be brave enough to lay down weapons and work toward a solution. I do not see the American war machine bombing Iran as helpful to Iraq. It could potentially weaken Iran to the point the Sunni will attack it because they are weak. That would be a stretch because even weakened I think you would win against the Sunni Armies in the area.

The solution that makes the most sense is for all sides to stop the madness, sit down, talk, discuss and work toward a solution. Or we can keep fighting, possibly for generations. Your country would gain nothing by expanding this war, it does have much to lose. It would gain much from working with the US and not against it. I hope that adds clarity to my earlier post. I’m off to enjoy the sunshine, I will check later for your reply later my friend.

Ovidius, that is your opinion that the Holocaust is "unique." look if people died, be it jews, or anyone else, then my heart goes out to them but christians died too. Because 6 million died we have to sympathise and give them everything and HAVE to believe that it happened? How am i to know? i wasn't alive 60 years ago, Should i believe jews who come and speak about it? Maybe their biased god knows.

Let's presume that the nazi's killed 6 million jews even though i do not think they have reached the technology of gas chambers at that time.

The war was 5 years right? so that is 1825 days. 6 million people died. 6,000,000/1825 = 3287.67
round it up to 3288, so your telling me these soilders were doing nothing but filling up gas and killing, wow that sure is a lot of gas extraction and that sure needs plenty of space. So they assume they burnt ok let's say they did burn them, do you know that the soil during the winter or autumn becomes very damp and can increase the rate of plaque and diseases, the best solution is to burn.

Hey, I wasn't there not trying to justify nazi acts, but i just like to calculate and have proof before i believe anything.

Shia,

Well, Hitler, when he wrote the context of his ideology, definately said something akin to, "let's kill those who defy us"

from Wikipedia:

"Mein Kampf has also been studied as a work on political theory. For example, Hitler announces his hatred in Mein Kampf toward what he believed to be the twin evils of the world: Communism and Judaism. Moreover, he states that his aim is to eradicate both from the face of the earth. The new territory that Germany needed to obtain would properly nurture the "historic destiny" of the German people; this goal explains why Hitler invaded Europe, both East and West, before he launched his attack against Russia. Laying Germany's chief ills on the parliamentary government, he announces that he wants to completely destroy that type of government."

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Ronin, excellent post.

However our might grows daily the more you abstain of attacking the more we are running up towards the race for power. War is not useful for anyone and that is why Iran says please leave Iraq, we have unfinished business there. Sadly these so called jihadists whom ruined the name of our beautiful religion, are a bunch of cowards and your president gave them more importance then they ever needed, look the middle east is uneducated it needs a lot of work, Some of these fighters come from North Africa where they are poor and think these people are actually fighting for freedom, some are Saudis whom have been brainwashed by senseless jihadists propganda in 80's.

The U.S has a very powerful mighty army, but they will increase intense pressure, they will make china and russia very angry, if they are attacked or in any danger what so ever, Iran will cause havoc and choas not in the Middle East but the entire world market. China depends largley on Iran's oil and Russia on sea trade.

If the U.S truely wants peace let them talk to Iran even if it is under the table. They have done so in Basra before, We share a commin enemy my friend "Sunni extremism".

Shia,

I'm just going to let you know, that you are in dangerous water here...

Your thesis about the amount of gas needed to burn damp bodies, etc. has been proven wrong time and time again...

So, on the subject of the Holocaust, it's best to stay off of that subject, as IT DID HAPPEN... And, again, your premises and theories have already been proven wrong in the Academic World...

Ronin,
Nice to hear from you, excellent post. Hope you have fun outside.

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Bulldog that is very interesting. I have never read Mein Kampf , but i will surely look into it.

I think he made a mistake attacking Russia, i have also watched programs that he faced more pressure on the Eastern front then the Western front. Might be wrong though. Please tell me what you think.

Bulldog, then maybe it did occur, as i have said if it did then I hope they all rest in peace. They were people and no one desrves to suffer but anyone can deny what happened it is their choice. Freedom of speech allows it.

Re: "He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin."

Israel is their country of origin if you simply back in time.

RE: "We inform you that the nations are like an ocean that is welling up, and if a storm begins, the dimensions will not stay limited to Palestine, and you may get hurt."

This is a subtle threat to Europe.

I believe that Europe is capable of defending itself if attacked.

Jonathan, the U.S government constantly threatens Iran if they back Hamas or Hezbollah this is political talk, threats and such occur in daily politics. He basically is saying what MIGHT happen if the continue supporting Israel. Jeruslam is the land for all symatic religions and let's presume it is their country of origin does this mean kick out the people and establish Israel. I do not think so.

Ahmadinejad and the garbage dribbling out of his maggot-riddled mouth prove that terrorism is just fine with Muslims as long as it is non-Muslims who are the ones being terrorized.

Maybe Israel SHOULD try becoming a terrorist state (like Islam) so it can return Islam's evil right back to the muslim world where it came from and belongs.

Deliver us from Islam and the morons who would deliver it to us.

Shia,

For info that debunks your thesis on the Holocaust, I will point you to the following website:
http://www.nizkor.org

Enough said on that subject, ok?

As for the Western/Eastern front, the Eastern front was probably the hardest for Nazi Germany not only because of the Military battles, but because of the extremely harsh terrain and terrible winters, not to mention that the Russians burned down the forests around there, so that the Germans wouldn't have any protection from the freezing winter snowstorms...

Excellent tactics to use, as it doesn't cost anything, you don't have to shoot anyone, and it's all up to God as to who dies from the cold, and who doesn't...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Mr Ahmadinejad said: "Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it."

He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin.

And I say millions of muftis should go back to their countries of origin.

I'm not holding my breath. LOL
But I AM holding my nose.

How could the army of Iran, which hardly possesses an air force with planes that can fly, possibly deal with so many different rebellions simultaneously? It can't. And that should worry the Islamic Republic of Iran. And it should be carefully considreed in Washington, where there appears to be very little thought going in to the matter of how to bring Iran to its heels, or to its senses.
Posted by: Hugh

sounds like a good plan to me. I wonder why there is so much fooling around in Washington. One poster in thsi thread claims he met Bush and that Bush is only make-believe stupid. I used to hope that were the case but I am beginning to think he's fiddling.

I mean I know the Repubs LOVE money above everything but Nation should rank before money - even for this unholy Cabal in the White House.

To think they are selling us out for the love of SOWdi money.. if this man is not dangerously stupid.. why does he spend our money like a drunken sailor? Why are we sending billions in aid to countries when we could achieve a lot more by spending mere millions on missiles and bombs? See Egypt.

You can't bribe these people to leave us alone. You can threaten them and if that doesn't work you destroy them. sending militant Wahhbist imams over here is tantamount to sending hostile agents and therefore should be considered as an Act of War.

If Bush is no fool.. why doesn't he see this? There are no Conservatives in power. There are only Liberals and moneygrubbers.

americaningermany, I do not know who your talking about. If i am anti-american why would i be on here? that does not make sense, I just speak what i believe is the truth, You seem to be an emotional person, if you cannot stand people's views then simply close this window and be done. Sir I have many Ameircan friends and I like the U.S infact my favourite University is in the U.S, maybe you need to learn what dialogue is.

Sir i will not exchange insults it is not Islamic :) If this is what you think of me, then hey i will live tommorow.

Bulldog, Sure enough is enough, and i will look at that website thank you. I never knew the russians burnt down the forests, I heard that two russian soilders share one Machine gun or rifle, So that if one dies the other picks it up and starts to fight. I am not sure on how authentic that is.

I fear, given the tenor and statements being made in recent months by Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice do not portend that my country is taking Iran seriously. If the Democrats win in November, we will be looking at a paralyzed Chief Executive who will be facing impeachment proceedings and not able to muster the energy needed to face down this monster.

He hasn't done much except in Afghanistan. Still he let them off the hook at Tora-Bora. See previous threads. I really don't care if they impeach this fool of not. At least that will motivate people to VOTA AGAINST HILLARY in 2008. She who kissed Arafat and his wife. And Bush likes to kiss and hold hands with swarthy SOWdi "princes". See what i mean?

There is NOT ONE person inside this devilish Beltway who has not been compromised!

Who will get us out of this mess?

I'm mainly annoyed to discover that Mr Ahmadjinejad apparently hasn't noticed yet how much we here in Australia hate Muslims.

I can see from reading his latest tirades that he thinks it's only UK and USA that he has to worry about.

Darn it.

I suppose I'll have to write him a little note telling him how much we despise him and his putrid piggy-people.

(...and that Australian nuclear bombs are bigger than Pakistan's!)

Just so much paperwok these days...
Mother Ecclesiastica.
Posted by: Mother Ecclesiastica

I am glad to read you hate muftis in Australia. Let me tell you, they are truly a plague. When I visit Germany they walk around the place dressed in their towels and scrubs.. AS IF THEY OWNED THE DAMN PLACE!!

Don't let this happen to your country!! Things will have to get very very ugly before these invaders lave on their own.

I am VERY glad to hear Aussies got a bomb!

There are some lebanese who attacked Australian surfers and lifeguards I heard.. is your government taking steps to deport these interlopers?

americaningermany,

My little buddies? i don't who you are talking about most of my friends don't know this website. killing, etc is not islamic at all. I do not controll the actions of people. If 100 people insult you it does not mean the 1.7 billion are all the same. You are showing me ignorance is this democracy you want muslims to accept?

Oh yes and i apologise for calling you sir lol i didn't know. my apologies i did not mean it.

americaningermany,

Hold on there big fella'...

I'm not trying to defend Shia, as I have full confidence that he can defend himself quite eloquently. But, I think he, unlike you, is making a distinction between peaceful muslims and radical muslims...

Just thought I'd throw that in the boxing ring before the bell rings for the next round...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

americaningermany,

Uhm, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were a big fella'

sorry about that...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Shia, geesh you produce information from Time magazine via "Amnesty's website." both those groups are so anti West, they might as well for the hez boys. at the end of the day, it does not matter "what you say", the muslim terrorist get their marching orders from the koran, mullahs, muftis, you name it, it all comes from the book of death "koran". you go on and just read what few sentences that calls for peace, but there are many who get down right religious ie faithful muslim and go on killing when they get to be "Devout Muslims".

Shia,

I've got to go to some errands, so I'll check back in a couple of hours to see how you and americaningermany are doing.

You two kids behave while Doctor Bulldog is out, okay? No fighting! I don't want to have to spank you when I come home. Okay?

...sorry, had a parental flashback there for a moment... Must be all this coffee coursing through my veins..

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

americaningermany,

Yes, I know you are not a guy... KellAnn, but I couldn't refuse the jab of calling you, "fella'" when Shia mistakenly called you, "Sir" -- LOL

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

americaningermany,

Madam, we do NOT want anyone to be muslim by force, that is comming from muslims whom are peaceful, it is your choice your decision to accept or not. Instead of preaching hatred how about you try to speak of peace and maybe those muslims can learn to accept how things are around the world. Islam has many sects, Wahabism is the most extreme. Al qaeda is extreme but not muslims. I will also show you who funded these people in day one when other muslims actually TOLD them not to do it mainly IRAN who hated the Taliban and gave the americans Air space to attack them.

Wikipedia:

Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski (born March 28, 1928, Warsaw, Poland) is a Polish-American political scientist, geostrategist, and statesman.

He served as United States National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981. He was known for his hawkish foreign policy at a time when the Democratic Party was increasingly dovish. He is a foreign policy realist, and considered to be the Democrats' response to Henry Kissinger, also a realist, who served under President Nixon.

Major foreign policy events during his office included: the normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China (and severing of ties with the Republic of China on Taiwan); the signing of the SALT II arms control treaty; the brokering of the Camp David Accords; the transition of Iran to an anti-Western Islamic state (the "loss" of Iran); encouraging reform in Eastern Europe; emphasizing human rights in U.S. foreign policy; and arming MUJAHDEN in Afghanistan to prompt, and then to counter, a Soviet invasion.

Brzezinski, known for his hardline policies on the Soviet Union, initiated a campaign supporting mujaheddin in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which were run by Pakistani security services with financial support from the CIA and Britain's MI6. This policy had the explicit aim of promoting radical Islamist and anti-Communist forces to overthrow the secular communist People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan government in Afghanistan, which had been destabilized by coup attempts against Hafizullah Amin, the power struggle within the Soviet-supported parcham faction of the PDPA and a subsequent Soviet military intervention.

We immediately launched a twofold process when we heard that the Soviets had entered Afghanistan. The first involved direct reactions and sanctions focused on the Soviet Union, and both the State Department and the National Security Council prepared long lists of sanctions to be adopted, of steps to be taken to increase the international costs to the Soviet Union of their actions. And the second course of action led to my going to Pakistan a month or so after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, for the purpose of coordinating with the Pakistanis a joint response, the purpose of which would be to make the Soviets bleed for as much and as long as is possible; and we engaged in that effort in a collaborative sense with the Saudis, the Egyptians, the British, the Chinese, and we started providing weapons to the Mujaheddin, from various sources again - for example, some Soviet arms from the Egyptians and the Chinese. We even got Soviet arms from the Czechoslovak communist government, since it was obviously susceptible to material incentives; and at some point we started buying arms for the Mujaheddin from the Soviet army in Afghanistan, because that army was increasingly corrupt.

January 18, 1998, Brzezinski was interviewed by the French newspaper, Nouvel Observateur on the topic of Afghanistan. He revealed that CIA support for the mujaheddin started before the Soviet invasion, and was indeed designed to prompt a Soviet invasion, leading them into a bloody conflict on par with America's experience in Vietnam. This was referred to as the "Afghan Trap." Brzezinski viewed the end of the Soviet empire as worth the cost of strengthening militant Islamic groups.

In his 1997 book, The Grand Chessboard, Brzezinski says that assistance to the Afghan resistance was a tactic designed to bog down the Soviet army, while the United States built up a deterrent military force in the Persian Gulf to prevent Soviet political or military penetration further south.

here is another interview:

Zbigniew Brzezinski:
How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen

Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*

Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

Brzezinski: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

* There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version, and the Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.

The above has been translated from the French by Bill Blum author of the indispensible, "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" Portions of the books can be read at:

try to point the finger at your government's fault before the muslims as a whole please. (by the way i admire him and have read his books, he is truely a genious.)

and i do not live in the u.s :) I study only in the U.K. And i will speak the truth here or anywhere else.

"If 100 people insult you it does not mean the 1.7 billion are all the same."

From the posting by zombie above.

The count is getting higher and higher. I think that by Dec. 2006, it will be 2 billion. What's your opinion folks ?

"You asked if Americans would really like to rescue Europe a third time? Give us a good reason, after all the insults, condescension, and invective tossed our way continuously from your continent why we should do this?"

Don't believe everything you read in the MSM. Speaking as a Brit I accept there is some unpleasant invective tossed your way but it is from the vocal minority (empty vessels?) The majority of people in the UK are deep down friendly towards the US and are aware that the "special relationship" is in the UK's best interest. If political parties like the bnp are to pose a serious challenge they need to ditch all the anti-American/Jewish conspiracy nonsense because at the moment they aren't taken seriously and are unelectable.Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a credible political party willing to grasp the nettle and confront Islam/immigration head on and prevent Europe sleepwalking into a nightmare of social breakdown and conflict.

So to all the Americans out there we love you warts'n'all, we know who are friends are and slowly we are waking up to who the enemy is. And when that nasty invective comes your way, remember to list some of America's contributions to the world (as pointed out by Bruce Bawer in "While Europe Slept") such inventions and discoveries as airplanes, anesthesia, calculators, computors, DNA, compact discs, elevators, electric light, artificial hearts, helicopters, magnetic resonance imaging, the internet, microprocessors, microwave ovens, motion pictures, nylon, pacemakers, photography, phonographs, quasars, sound recording, sewing machines, mass spectroscopy, electric stoves, telephones, television, transistors, vacuum cleaners, washing machines and the polio, measles and meningitis vaccines. (Some fellow Brits may contest some on that list as our own but let's not argue) You may also wish to point out the liberation from the Nazis and the half centuary of protection from Soviet aggression requiring European gratitude.

But before I get accused of brown nosing, you are far from perfect though, far from it.
Regards

americaningermany,

Maybe you will actually learn something true about muslims.

hierophant, you are friends with whomever you wish to be but let's not forget your country actually roams and lives on Illegal immigrants and Immigrants who will work for 20 british pounds a day to work from 12 in the afternoon all the way to 3 or 4 o clock in the morning, Minimum wage for the average british citzen is 5.5 pounds an hour, britain is not making any money the consumer loan is 2 trillion pounds. Please hold on tight to your American friends my dear sir. Your days of pride and your empire have long gone. Thanks to tony that is.

arjun

Good one, my man. I see that number escalating every week.
Before you know it, they'll be 2 billion, and they'll be making more demands on the basis of numbers, for reasoned thought escapes them.

Arjun, how do you plan to tackle this issue?

there is some unpleasant invective tossed your way but it is from the vocal minority (empty vessels?)
how true hierophant! during 9-11 many planes were diverted to Canada, and many American travellers found themselves with no place to stay. Well Canadians from Newfoudnland to BC took in these American travelers in their homes. so you see when the chips are down, we help each other when needed.
Shia you say you are studing in GB, what happen no schools in cesspoolstan? cant you muslims build your own schools of learning? what you need to learn from the infedel? you cant stand to live in cesspoolstan, what your product of sharia law as called by your cult of islam? you should be grateful for the fact that "YOU" are allowed to walk in a country as Great as GB. from reading your post, you are a snob, you put down the west, yet you need us. well you know what we do not need us. you should be eternally grateful for the generiosty of the West to allow muslims in our great land. yeah your cesspoolstand is churning out basket cases, you prove our point by coming to the west, islam does not deserv to surive. so if your smarter than your what you have written, leave islam while you can in a safe haven western country.

1.7 billion are all the same." numbers dont matter, they kill each other faster than you can say allah babba. lol

Ah, People like me are why your economies survive, that's why i pay 5 times more then the average british citzen or european, We came to learn to implemnt in our own countries and by god's will we can be as advanced in technology and science. I do not put down the West, i put down governments I put down Arab governments last night, I put down arab governments more then the U.S and i credit many American organisations and European ones. It seems you look at things one sidedly and because some extremists are acting badly you think we all do the same, I do not preach hatred, I do not say well we should preach Islam in the west, I am quiet, I have my discussions and I study that is all. I have no plans to stay or migrate here. If you are botherd by our precense then we are botherd by the European/American bases which are MILITARY my friend. You need to be more open minded.

The big lie in Ahmadinajad's words is his implication that the Arabs --and other Muslims-- are/were innocent of participation in the Holocaust. Firstly, the Ottoman empire's massacre of Armenians inspired Hitler, leading him to think that he could murder the Jews with impunity. Secondly, most of the Arab nationalist movement sympathized with the Nazis. Bush's Saudi friends --or their father, Abdul Aziz ibn Saud-- approved of the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1936. The Rashid Ali al-Kilani [al-Gailani] government in Iraq collaborated directly with the Nazis, and attacked British troops stationed in Iraq by treaty. Nasser and Sadat were Nazi sympathizers, which fact they didn't hide. However, the MSM hid that fact for them. Most significantly, the chief leader of the Palestinian Arabs, the British-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini [al-Husayni] collaborated in the Holocaust, urging the Germans to kill more Jews faster. He also incited violence against Jews living in Arab countries. See link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/06/mufti-of-jerusalem-incited-1941-farhud.html
Further, Inayat Khan, an Indian Muslim theologian and advocate of the Pakistan idea, had some chummy chats with Hitler about jihad, in which Hitler was very interested. See link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/islamic-influence-on-hitler-can-it-be.html
So the oft made claim that "palestinians" are innocents suffering from the West's alleged sense of guilt over the Holocaust is another big lie.
Search on the Net for info on Haj Amin el-Husseini [al-Husayni] and Hitler.

Shia asks "Ah, People like me are why your economies survive", the answer is very very simple, what keeps muslims backward is islam! in the West we have separation of church and state. we do not marginalize women and yes even minorities. immigrants have always come over and intergrated in
society. you see muslims do not want to become a "Westerner" so you stay backwards. Look at how many billions and billions of dollars oil rich muslims rake in, but the majority of mulsims live adject poverty. so if you are honest with yourself you can see the equation very simply. no culture can evolve
when enslave half your populatoin ie, women, stagnate creativity, no artist coming from muslims, and on and on.. its islam stupid!

Zena, I am a follower of the scholars in Najaf, i doubt you really have the knowledge to understand the difference between Qom and Najaf, but in Najaf we seperate religion from politics. enslave wow do they teach you that you can enslave people in your schools? or is that something you came up by yourself. culture has nothing to do with knowledge nor science. Islam is a religion not a culture. Arab leaders have always been cowards and they have betrayed their cause a very long time ago that has NOTHING to do with islam that was pan-arabism.

Eliyahu Sheikh hussain of palestine made a pact with the nazi's in Iraq it was the same remember he was fighting the Haganah miltiias and other jewish factions who actually fought themselves for sometime and do not forget before that they were fighting the british occupation. Frankly Muslims were in the middle of powers fighting over domination of Europe. This was the era of pan-arabs not Islam. Maybe you cannot tell the difference between pan-arabs, shia, socialists, sunni islamists, wahabi islamists.

Third, Muslims are born Muslim, they are human and I said Islam is good some may follow it correctly some may interpit it wrong....Shia.

Kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123),
slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52),
be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads;
then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4).
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Al-Bukhari, vol. 4, 55

Shia,explain any other way these can be interpreted other than what they cleary ask !!!
I`m sick of hearing that Islam has been hijacked.
It hasn`t , it is evil .

Shia you are almost as bad as an infidel! no wonder the Saudi would kill you even faster than l! hey l am only a Catholic. again look at all muslim countries why are they basket cases? look you would be smart to be set free and leave this cult, it is dangerous to people like you!

Shia,

Been away from this board for awhile since you posted part of a response me. We Americans do not underestimate the difficulties of establishing and maintaining bases in the Middle East. However, for us this is a manageable challenge. It may be that we will have to coordinate our deposing of the Mullahs in the Islamic Republic with the Israeli move against your Syrian satellite. That is the key to the strategy. First, we all have to be in agreement that Syria has to go and that Israel can handle that task. It might be awhile before they can be ready for that, since the operation in Southern Lebanon exposed weaknesses in command structure, logistics, and tactics that must be cleaned up. Israel has spent over twenty years in a political phase whereby it has been dominated by its Leftist elements which believed in the taqiyya of "land for peace and security." By now its citizenry should be disabused of that illusion.

I have believed that a move against Iran on our part requires that Israel secure our rear against your Syrian satellite. The next anchor for our operation has to be the Kurdish region of Iraq, since the Kurds have not lifted a finger against us before, during, and after OIF.

It is unfortunate that the Iraqi Shi'a have given in to the Iranian blandishments set before them by your agents since very shortly after OIF concluded. I have some sympathy for the Iraqi Shi'a, because of how they suffered under Sunni domination for decades. The U.S. has tried to keep the Sunni jackals at bay from your people, but this has not been an easy task given our force levels in the theatre. Some think we should have at least had double the combat troops in Iraq, but others have argued that a larger footprint only makes it harder to manage the insurgency. A more visible presence only makes us a larger target and increases casualties in a very unpopular war, domestically-speaking. Plus, insurgencies are not defeated by gigantic militaries, unless of course you prefer that we simply scorch the entire Sunni Triangle - not that I would be against that, since I am not bounded by p.c. thinking.

Iran's day of reckoning is coming. Iran is not like Russia or China, countries that understand the MAD doctrine and are not unhinged by lunatic Mahdi visions.

As for the "nuke 'em" crowd... At most we would use very small tactical nukes, the smallest we have, to burrow deep into those underground and mountain facilities where you are developing the components of your weapons' programs. And that we will accomplish after we have done an undressing of your aerial defenses. By the way, we know about and understand the kind of equipment you've purchased from the Russians and the French. They pose a bit of a challenge, but entirely manageable by our capabilities.

Third, Muslims are born Muslim, they are human and I said Islam is good some may follow it correctly some may interpit [sic] it wrong.

muslim yes, human? NO.

How often did I read on a German web site where people were CONGRATULATING (this was some months back) Iran on their nuclear ambitions!

They said: "Hey, if the f***ing Amis can have weapons of mass destruction, then it's only fair that Iran can have them.
Some even extended invitations to the Pres. of Iran to come and stay with them in their homes in Germany!

Ha!
Posted by: americaningermany

When they say stupid things like that you tell them I said they are "VOLLIDIOTEN!"

Brainwashed youngsters.. The media is way more entrenched and LIBERAL then even here in the USA. There were kids like these in my school when I grew up. They wore Pali scrves around their necks right in the middle of terror and plane hijackings. I have to admit I don't understand many Germans very well and I am at a loss to explain what motivates this kind of suicidal behaviour.

Fred, Nice post.

have some sympathy for the Iraqi Shi'a, because of how they suffered under Sunni domination for decades. The U.S. has tried to keep the Sunni jackals at bay from your people, but this has not been an easy task given our force levels in the theatre.

Is that why your generals told our people to rise up in Iraq and then betray them in 1991? Signed deals with Baathist generals and called off any support. Iran has funded these coups since 1983 when the american government supplied saddam with the best logistics and weaponry available, they dealt with a thug and it is their fault he ever attacked any shia in the region, if the american goverment cared then they would have stopped giving him any form of support since 1983-1989.

The American government kept the sunnies away? No my friend, They funded them in the first place over powerd them and gave them the attention they needed to spread like wild fire. The shia gave the Sunni arabs a lot of chances and now enough is enough. Shia are completly different, our idealogy is different, our love and caring for our religion is different, we don't wars but if it will come then it will come. We do not take orders from the pentagon, white house or anyone else. We are free and we chose to be. Hezbollah proved to be quiet a formidable enemy for one of the toughest armies in the world, Sryia is even powerful. If Israel touchs sryia, or Iran is touched it will unleash disaster and the shia actually are tacling sunni insurgency and extremist idealogies.

I assure you again the days of war against Sryia and Iran have long gone. I suggest they seek peace. If the U.S army will attack, then we will have to just wait and see what will really happen.

Kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123),
slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52),
be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads;
then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4).
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Al-Bukhari, vol. 4, 55

sir this is not the Quran. This is al bukhari he is a sunni islamist. Which shia heavily critise sometimes we even use his books to prove sunni scholars of their errors from their own words. (i must note a lot of his work has been edited during the years by extremists like Ib taymiya etc)

Wikipedia:

Popularly known as just Bukhari, Al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari (810-870), he was a famous Sunni Islamic scholar. most known for authoring the Hadith collection named Sahih Bukhari, a collection whom Sunni regard as the most authentic (Arabic: Sahih) collection after the Qur'an[1]. Sunni view
Sunni Muslims view him as one of the greatest scholars of Islam, a great man for whose work the world's Muslims have a lot in debt.

A Sunni source describes him thus:

Throughout his life, al-Bukhaaree displayed the character of a devout and pious Muslim scholar. He was rigorous in the observance of his religious duties, ensuring that rather than relying on charity he always lived by means of trade, in which he was scrupulously honest. Once he lost ten thousand dirhams on account of a minute scruple. A good deal of his income, in fact, was spent on helping the students and the poor. It is said that he never showed an ill-temper to anyone, even when there was more than sufficient cause; nor did he bear ill-will against anybody. Even towards those who had caused his exile from Neesaaboor, he harboured no grudge.

Shi'a view
Shi'a do not accept his works as reliable sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Bukhari#Sunni_view

" we do NOT want anyone to be muslim by force, that is comming from muslims whom are peaceful, it is your choice your decision to accept or not. Instead of preaching hatred how about you try to speak of peace and maybe those muslims can learn to accept how things are around the world".

Posted by Shia

Shia:

This all sounds well and good, but I point out that this has not been the attitude historically in countries where Islam takes root and achievs majority status, or even a certain critical mass. In the latter case further Islamicization always follows as the Muslim population becomes more pushy and demanding. This seems to summarize the history of the growth of Islam throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and as I understand the events of the 8th and 9th centuries, including the conquest and subsequent 850 year occupation of Spain and the smaller Islamic raids into Europe, which were undoubtedly designed to soften the rest of the continent up for eventual conquest as well, it would have been the history of its spread into Europe also had events in the Middle East not intervened.

Furthermore, in most Islamic countries, non-Muslims, whether Christian, Jew or any other, if they are allowed to exist at all, do so under heavy restrictions and conditions of grave repression, that have slowly caused these communities to greatly reduced in size or to eventually die out. If Islam is peaceful and tolerant as you claim that it is, how can such cruel oppression and injustice against other religions, or any other non-believers, be so rife in Islamic lands, especially when the West, for the most part is extremely tolerant of religious diversity and allows Muslims to practice their faith openly and without restriction? Where is the tolerance, or the great compassion of Allah in which Moslems supposedly believe so strongly, in any of this? Hoping you'll respond to this.

Shia:

One final note about my questions above. The repression against Jews and Christians is just as severe in Shia Iran, and even worse at the moment it seems in Iraq, also a Shia country.

Shia

The Israeli attempt to dislodge Hizb'allah from Southern Lebanon was not very well planned or executed. It struck me as a very rapid reaction rather than a sound strategy. Plus, the IDF has suffered from many years under various center-Left governments that have done to it what President Clinton did to our military. And we are still recovering from the Clinton mangling of our military and our intelligence communities. I have no doubt that Hizb'allah was a formidable foe, but you have to understand that the rules of engagement we in the West fight under makes dealing with the tactic of using human shields a bit of a challenge. The IDF also did not know about the Syrian listenning posts in the Golan area, whereby the Syrians used the latest Russian equipment to get the drop on IDF communications. There were many lessons to be learned in that brief conflict, but have no doubt that the IDF will learn and adapt.

Shi'a, I was not in favor of abandoning the Shi'a uprisings in Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War I. But, our government kept us in the dark about this. Plus, most Americans were in favor of plowing on to Baghad and finishing off the Babylonian Baathists. However, George Bush Sr. and his advisors were Realpolitik men who also did not believe in exceeding the U.N. mandate. Plus, both Houses in Washington were controlled by Democrats and it was only by the slimmest of margins that permission to go to war was obtained. In the Muslim world things are done by fiat. In our world things are not so simple, as Republics can be messy businesses and require a lot of horse trading.

Our material support of Saddam Hussein in the eighties is constantly overblown by the Leftist media. In any event, whatever that support was in no way requires us to not change our minds about it. The conditions then were different. Iran and the Islamic Revolutionary Guards were whipped up into a furor over the United States and full of themselves over our retreat from Beirut in 1983. Also, in order to be free to confront the Soviet Union Reagan's State Department and Defense department had to cobble together the Realpolitik balance elsewhere in the world. I remember those days well. I was a Gramscian Marxist in those days and an informed citizen about global geopolitics from the Left's standpoint. So, I know all their tricks about how they are lining up their talking points about the current conflict. What the fools do not understand is that in an Islamic world your kind are very likely to behead their kind. I at least know this, which is why you can't fool me and why they are the consummate fools.

templar, interesting post.

Can you bring me proof of the "severe" repression against the jewish and christian minority please? The only religion not allowed to practice in Iran are bahis. I have been to a synagog with a jewish friend of mine and he was russian jew as well. I invited him into a mosque, and Imam Retha a shia saint's shrine.

Shiasm says that christians and jews go to heaven just like muslims who are devoted to humanity, and those who do wrong will go to hell. plain and simple.

As for the islamic raids, I am sorry to say that most of the killing and invasions started on the days of the third caliph Omar and when Imam Ali was in power he preached most dialogue and which is why he was assassinated by other factions i.e Kharajites and Muaweyah. As for the Islamic raids of spain and Europe these were done by the Ummyad caliph which we curse, and they killed many shia saints. all decendants of the prophet mohammad.

Too many Europeans are anti-American, just for the sake of being anti-American. They hate anything and everything American.

But, they'll tolerate muftis all around them, even though those muftis are plotting their destruction. I don't get it.

Even some of my closest friends here are anti-American, more or less.
They like me as an individual, but they will sometimes slip and say things that hurt my feelings.

Just the other evening while bowling I mentioned to one of my friends that we should go see the movie "World Trade Center" and our other friend said: "Oh yeah, you girls go watch that movie, but make sure you take plenty of tissues with you, because our little American friend here will probably cry a lot when she sees her aunties and uncles getting killed".

Damn.
Posted by: americaningermany

I am telling you all.. it's the media over there. my sister came to the States to visit me and she expressed devastation that John Kerry had lost the election against George Bush. I am BY NO MEANS anywhere near a fan of this traitor King W but I found the alternative to be equally disgusting, if not even worse. I mean what's the difference between these two detached from reality Yalies? One is loves and supportd by SOWdi "princes" - the other is loved by the PLO. His wife's Heinz foundation supports all kinds of Pali projects and I WILL NEVER buy another Heinz product again. Look up the Heinz foundation website. They are proud supporters of Palistan causes.

Anyway.. I asked her what makes her think that John Kerry is so great.. After all I merelt see him as an anti-candidate to Bush at best. He had no defining agenda and he was and is a complete weakling. On MTV he said: "You have to listen to Hiphop because it's important." Wish I'd been the interviewer that day! I'd have asked him who is Jay-Z.. and we all know that one's a *cookie*! Ands I'd have asked him to name his favorite Hiphop song and what is important about the lyrics in the song. some inquiring "journalists" they have over at MTV. Rock da vote yeah! Vote or die. I think they mean Vote Dhimmicrat or die.

This is more or less the picture we have here of John Kerry.. Liberal, stiff, weak, disconnected..

But she went and described him as a sensitive and wonderful orator full of nuanced and multi-faceted views of the world. I realized that is how he'd been presented by the German media. Since they were able to lose all of the man's foolishness in the translation, as it were. They made him look like Friedrich von Schiller out of pure hatred for Bush. They were simply dressing up their dog in the fight. Case in point of how anti-American they are which i explained to my sister. I told her: who ought to know more about John Kerry? You or me? I live in the United States and could see him on TV daily during the Primaries and the Campaign. So I told her it is with great sadness and regrte that I have to inform you that your picture of John Kerry is completely wrong. If he was as good as the German media had sold him to their public John Kerry would have defeated Bush rather handily. I asked her does she really think the American public is THAT STUPID and that she'd have to include me amongst that public in her answer. Sometimes you have to use strong-arm strategy when arguing politics with family. They really want to take the easy way out over there in Germany and follow the herd.. The journos know best..

The German media is 99.99% liberals or even more leftist. That's why people mught say I am right-of-center when compared to the damage these people have done all over Europe by bending reality to the degree they have done. I can hear the same tone on the BBC braoadcasts coming here via npr.

So these anti-American things that you hear slip from these people's mouths are simply regurgitations of what the whole culture is being infused with. The Euros want the US hamstrung by the UN and other "international institutions" and the Pussycrats are viewed as more amenable to this and other leftist issues. They also like to do this to make themselves and their public feel better and superior to the American public, and as long as the media keep feeding them this diet of innate cultural superiority they will gobble it all up without thought. After all, stroking people's vanity is a great way to manipulation them. Tell a woman she has beautiful eyes and even if it's a lie she will swoon. And you will get to second base or further if that's what you want.

Media Rule #1: Insincerity will get you everywhere.

Media Rule #2: Keep repeating a lie long enough and everyone will come to believe it.

We all know who verbalized that one originally.

So the media has their constant little anti-American digs and after decades of this nonsense it becomes the norm. People don't question it any longer.

Maybe you need to find new friends. Second you need to speak up each and every time and get in their face. Most of them will back off when they feel an oncoming Confrontation with Thruth. My experience anyway.

I am pleased to report that I have converted all my German boyfriends from multi-culti to right-right-of-the-center :-)

Germans only need to learn better the Muslims (which they have now plenty of opportunity unfortunately) to understand that Germany is actually sitting in the same boat with Israel (and Serbia). Thanks to Muslim arrogance and violence, this is already happening. But this is what other European nations need to learn as well, hopefully before is too late.
Posted by: Serbian girl

SEMYAK!!!!!

FredIsinglass,

Interesting post and i respect your view and you seem to be very well exprienced. I would like to note that I believe that no one should be killed if they believe in something unless they come to attack us.

Hezbollah used no human shields, they did some suicide attacks during the war with israel in the 80's but on military targets and the American barrack's bombing of 1983, well they were supporting factions, all is fair in love and war.

Iran was very arrogant when it first came out, they have revised their tactics and many things have changed i am affraid. Even though most sunnies hate Iran, Iran still preachs unity. To indicate we do not want war. Iran has not invaded anyone in 150 years. The last shia tryants you can ever think of where probably the Safivds dyanyst in the 1600's whom were fighting WITH the british against the otthoman turks.

Shia
"Please hold on tight to your American friends my dear sir. Your days of pride and your empire have long gone."

You silly little prat.
We acknowledge that our Empire is long gone, we no longer need or want one. You and your sinister friends all dressed in black on the other hand want to re-establish your "empire" which if this ever transpires (over my dead body) will have a retrogressive impact on Civilisation/the human race.
It is very easy to knock the British Empire inspite of the many positive things it brought, but most people in the democratic world accept that colonialism is a thing of the past.

You not only want to colonise but you want to brainwash every poor Tom Dick and Harry into your 7th century superstitious death cult mumbo jumbo.

The British Empire introduced Parliamentary Democracy to the world amongst other things.

What exactly has the islamic empire brought to the table? And please don't say caligraphy.

hierophant,

THe british took everything but gave education in return, isn't it the british idea to unite all iraqi provinces in the 20's give power to sunni tyrants and leave ASAP?

My dear friend if you talk about a Shia empire, then the cresnet is taking place, Lebanon to Iran. The people are waking up to what is the truth. Shiasm the true Islam.

americaningermany if Tom Tancredo does not run for office, you just hold your nose when you vote for any other Republican, as anything else is far far worse.

Zena,

Iran never fought directly with Israel. Israel actually cut a deal with Iran and funded them with weapons in the Iraq-Iran war. $2 billion u.s dollars. We prefer Israel over sunni extremism. Secondly you proved how you lack knowledge of sryia. Sryia is a baathist/socialist goverment run by Alawi shiites. whom make up 1% of the nation. Http://en.wikipedia.net start reading.

Dr. Wolffenstein

You asked if Americans would really like to rescue Europe a third time? Give us a good reason, after all the insults, condescension, and invective tossed our way continuously from your continent why we should do this? There are only two reasons why I would say we should do it, and neither reason is altruistic, by the way. The first is that it would not be a good thing for the Ummah to get its hands on French nuclear weapons. The second reason is that any time territory is directly added to the Ummah, it gets stronger. It's bad policy to let the Borg gain strength. The only Americans who now admire Europe are the liberal Dhimmicrats and the Far Left. I used to admire Europe a long time ago when I was a Gramscian. Not any more.
Posted by: FredIsinglass

Sad, but true.. The only Euros capable of running things are the Serbs and maybe the Swiss.

Should the US ever have to liberate Europe it shall have to de-islamify and de-socialist the poplace.

China controls Kim, and its china and russia's way of trying to bring the west down. the only thing working in our way is that Christanity and democracy is coming in the back door into China with all that prosperity, a new middle class will demand more rights, and there is no allah to say no.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess

Just wait for the Olympics, Zena.. hehehe.. there's going to be journos all over the place.. exposes on secret prisosns and work camps and China will regret hosting this goofy event. I can't WAIT!

We need China on our side and I think the younger generations are. I think they'll be better allies than the Euros in fact.

3. Any use of even a small WND against us or a friend and we would crush entire countries. It would be the only way to make sure no one ever tries it again.
Posted by: Ronin

Ronin:

what if Hilary wins the presidency? I ask you: whom would Hilary bomb? I think she'd sit on her manicured idle hands and do naught.

Again, We will crush. believe me these days have died and you can no longer afford another front. Yes we all know that your power has not been fully used in a war. But with your fourth generation weaponry i am suprised to see the U.S number of deaths in Iraq to 2,778 untill i see that number to stop rising then we can discuss your true power.

Posted by: Shia

Listen up, boy. The 2,778 American Deaths are due to POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and ridiculous RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.

You muftis sure like to ignore reality and say stupid things. Problem is, so do the leftists in our countries.

americaningermany,

Heh it's politics, not barbarism. :) He understands everything about sunni extremism but if we seperate lenient sunnies we will lose and the islamic republic will be gone.

Keep America busy Make money, step up the nuclear enrichment, satisfy good old Russia with sea trade which is up 300% and China with oil and let's not forget, you do not want to piss off China.
Posted by: Shia

That's right - you don't want to piss them off. You muftis are f*cking with China's best customer, ya dig? We supply them with technology as well, be it via legal means or by theft. All you guys have is oil. That is a LOT easier to take by force than what China stands to lose if we were to change relations with them for any reason.

Chinese are intelligent logical people. You are proof once again that muzis are anything but.

aig, my question also!
"We prefer Israel over sunni extremism." the bloody shia-sunni conflict in Iraq kind of supports that statement, but if it is true then why has Ahmadinejad threatened Israel, and Europe because he thinks it is supporting Israel ?
shouldnt he be concentrating on helping the Shia in Iraq, Saudi and elsewhere, and only getting mad at us if we seem to be interfering with his efforts in that direction ?
Israel might again be an Iranian ally ?

For speaking similar to Iran's regime, there is always more then one side to a story. Try looking at other news resources rather then the western ones.
Posted by: Shia

What? The BBC isn't liberal enough for you?

Zena, i hope not all westerners do sound like you lol. Otherwise there will be no peace for quiet sometime.
Posted by: Shia

Zena, I wish MORE of us were EXACTLY like you!!! Keep up the good work!

Democracy is something which god gives us, the respect for other beliefs. There are extremist in every sect, reliigon, group, country, city, town. Let's just hope people can unite and not make them grow into masses.
Posted by: Shia

You mean we should prepare to be assimilated and join the hive?

M Al-Content , Iran would be very stupid to actually go around saying that now wouldn't they? Seems like you believe everything you hear and see. Politics is dirty and you can support proxy groups indirectly. Iran funds the SCIRI, Mahdi militia, and many other shia militias.

Sunnies get hyped easily, It's best to use them to weaken the israelis why should Iran kill other shias? If israel is weak they will not have a hand to reach to Iran.

shia l know the ruling class of syria are Alawi who are as you said an extreme minority. the fact is that no muslim country will attack any country after their debacle militarily with any Western power, especially the US and Israel. The fact is that Iran, Syria are working with the "hez boys and hammas nut so smart nut balls" they are being used as surrogates. it is the mode of operation of rogue states such as iran. how you can dare proclaim shia
form of muslim with all the atrocities on your own people from "your sharia" law? l read on the other site about how a boy had to watch him mother being stoned to death! islam has got to go, it cannot surive in a civilized world. you keep going around and around, but the texts in the koran, hadiths, suras should give you a hint that it was created by a madman. how on earth can any human being after reading those vicious books remain a muslim?

americaningermany, I just believe you are filled with hatred maybe you need to resolve this and seek spiritual guidance. lol

Zena, please post the website and please i hope it is not Mujahden Khalq or PKK.

Hey, I wasn't there not trying to justify nazi acts, but i just like to calculate and have proof before i believe anything.
Posted by: Shia

You say you like ot have proof before you believe anything, right? Let me ask you this:

Do you believe there is no God but Allah and that Mahomet is his prophet? If so please share with us what proof you have.

Shis yeah we all love the poor misquided muslim, you were born a muslim, so the brainwashing has been instilled for so long its too late. better put on bomb belts and get it over, see your virgins, yourluck they will all look like madame clinton! lol

Shia,

I don't have much time, as I'm in between errands, but I skim through the multitudes of posts since I last was here, two hours ago.

You asked for proof of discrimination of other religions in Iran... Lots of examples come to mind, the first of which is from the New York Times, and only took me about 10 seconds to find on the net..:

The New York Times, August 1, 1994

The Islamic Government of Iran, which has often been criticized by human rights groups for its treatment of religious minorities, is mounting the fiercest campaign since the 1979 revolution against the small Christian minority here, church leaders and Western diplomats say. Three Christian leaders have been killed since the beginning of the year. Churches have been shut down. Scores of young Christians, many converts from Islam, have been imprisoned and tortured, especially in the cities of Gorgan and Kermanshah, church officials say. And pastors have been expelled from parishes or are under surveillance.

Again, I have lots more examples I can cite, but I've got to be going now.

Sorry I can't stick around, I'll be back in a couple more hours.

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Shia, Israel would be happy not to have to think about reaching Iran.
taking military action to halt the Iranian nuclear program would be the most difficult and potentially catastrophic operation the IDF has ever undertaken.
Ahmadinejad might perhaps be bluffing for his own reasons, and have let the Israeli government know that he is doing so, but if so they are keeping that knowledge very, very secret ?

Bulldog,

The new york times is pro-israel, anti-iran for a very long time now. I would like to see this from amnesty's website. Anyhow i will look for it and if so then as i have said last night Iran is not perfect either. they do have hardcore clerics. America has hardcore hawks, I.e zena here and americaningermany

M Al-Content , I do not think he is bluffing but these are words of threat taken back since 1979. Psychological warfare between countries. It is a cold war at the moment and words of threat are given out.

Zelda here is what i believe as a Shia Muslim and whom i follow:

Shi'a Muslims adhere to what they consider to be the teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and the religious guidance of his family whom they refer to as the Ahlul Bayt. Thus, Shi'as consider the first three ruling Sunni caliphs a historic occurrence and not something attached to faith. The singular/adjective form is Shī’ī (شيعي.) and refers to a follower of the Household of Muhammad and of Ali ibn Abi Talib (Imam Ali) in particular.

Sir I have many Ameircan friends and I like the U.S infact my favourite University is in the U.S, maybe you need to learn what dialogue is.

Sir i will not exchange insults it is not Islamic :) If this is what you think of me, then hey i will live tommorow.

This is TOO RICH to ignore! Even if it wasn't directed at myself. I have time to kill.. hehe..

Exchanging insults is not islamic. How true! You like to behaed those who insult pigslam. You don't trade insults. You wish to be the only ones spewing them out. Typical case of "can dish out but can't take it"

Same for dialogue. islamists do all the talking.. make all the demands.. I am certain your favorite University in the US is Columbia. And we all know what their version of dialogue looks like.

Please keep sending up more of your little testing ballons. i'll shoot 'em down with my wrist rocket.

My little buddies? i don't who you are talking about most of my friends don't know this website. killing, etc is not islamic at all. I do not controll the actions of people. If 100 people insult you it does not mean the 1.7 billion are all the same. You are showing me ignorance is this democracy you want muslims to accept?
Posted by: Shia

WE don't care what you accept or what you don't accept. MOST of us are simply TIRED of your act and we WANT YOU TO LEAVE.

Accept or don't accept whatever you like - BUT PLEASE DO IT **OVER THERE**!

americaningermany,

I have never once not even once said anything to preach hatred or blow anyone up, you only assume things.

Doc..

I'm not trying to defend Shia, as I have full confidence that he can defend himself quite eloquently. But, I think he, unlike you, is making a distinction between peaceful muslims and radical muslims...

There's this little thing I'd like to draw your attention to. It's called TACQUIA!

I have to log off now. Nice to speak to you. Good luck and good bye.

Shia, "Democracy" is never shoved down anyone's throat. Democracy is a magnate for the poor muslim living in poverty due to an evil cult called islam.
mulims are escaping their countries which is run by islamic rule and rulers who are muslim. get the hint wonder boy? islam caused your poverty, lack of education, you never address these facts. you lay blame on all others but "your failed" system of belief. Do not insult us with your lies. Do you believe in "sharia law"?

Shia, you may not be a sunni
but you still are not free
to see you submit to a false prophet
and his arabian moon god. How sad.
You seem quite intelligent
but when the mind is chained,
made a slave to hatred and ignorance,
then empathy dies and wisdom is feigned.

Your sharia law is flawed
by hatred of the Other,
who can never be your equal,
who is filthy and inferior,
who is seen as hardly human,
who your allah said
you could never call brother;
by your treatment of women,
not as your mates but as animals you can beat
and control by your brutish force.
Your laws legalize stoning,
murder for homosexuals,
and make a travesty of adoption.
Your islamic ideology is tribal,
backwards and warlike and brings
poverty, breeds suffering and pain,
makes deserts wherever it goes.

Shia, cling to your fantasy
of islamic superiority at your peril.
The lights are coming on
and bring the hidden into view,
for it is an illusion you have,
the facts are there.
But, I'm afraid, since you're a slave
of the god of the black rock, bloody Baal,
you do not have the power to resist his kiss.

try to point the finger at your government's fault before the muslims as a whole please. (by the way i admire him and have read his books, he is truely a genious.)
Posted by: Shia

Hmm.. I decided to double check on Wackypedia and SEE FOR MYSELF: I also like proof before i believe anything.

Unless someone has rewritten an awful lot of text there is no real good explanation why what you post there is so different from what you will find in this LINK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski

Interesting spelling of the word Mujaheeddin in the excerpt below:

Major foreign policy events during his office included: the normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China (and severing of ties with the Republic of China on Taiwan); the signing of the SALT II arms control treaty; the brokering of the Camp David Accords; the transition of Iran to an anti-Western Islamic state (the "loss" of Iran); encouraging reform in Eastern Europe; emphasizing human rights in U.S. foreign policy; and arming MUJAHDEN [SIC]in Afghanistan to prompt, and then to counter, a Soviet invasion.

SOMETHING got changed in the translation. A wacky search for the word MUJAHDEN bringss up.. well, I'd rather you see for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=MUJAHDEN&go=Go

Q.E.D. liar

Shia:

I do not claim to be an expert on religious minorities in Islamic countries, but one need not be in order to know that the restrictions of the "dhimma" are simply "in the wind" throughout the Islamic world for groups like Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians. Since you ask, repression of Christians is discussed in a number of sites including Farsinet.com,wikipedia.com, countrystudies.us and asianews.it, which, hopefully will be of use to you in learning more about this. The lattermost relates the story of a Protestant pastor facing trial for the "crime" of "apostasy", which seems to get people killed all over the Islamic world, whether the local form of Islam be Sunni or Shiite. You can find these sites by doing a simple Google search using the terms "Iran" and "Christians". It is worthy of note that, as Farsinet points out,the patriarchate of the Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East has had to relocate to Chicago, and I assume that this may be due to the practices of expropriation of Christian properties and insistence on government control of Christian institutions that seems to be widespread. Overall, the number of Christians in Iran as a function of their proportion of the total population of the country is (as of 2000)down to 0.4% from 1.75 % in 1975. Although one can assume that some of this may be rooted in the conflict over Assyrian nationalist aspirations, this consideration does not explain the situation of the Protestant convert, whose Christian adherence is to a denomination historically unconnected to the Assyro-Chaldean nationality.

I appreciate the distinction you make between the Shi'ite tradition and the Sunni Ummayed Caliphate and its expansionist policies of the earlier era I mentioned, as well as your expression of regret over the raids and conquests in Europe, but it does seem to me that the reliance of both major branches of Islam on the Koran and the example of Mohammed, does mean that at some level, violence and the program of geographical expansion into hitherto non-Muslim regions, is hard-wired even into the Shi'ite branch of Islam as well as the Sunni, even if other factors in Shi'a dampen it somewhat.

Finally, I note that however tolerant - at least by the standards of the Middle East - the policy of Iran toward its Christian and Jewish minorities may be (not tolerant enough evidently to prevent these populations from fleeing Iran in massive numbers since the 1979 revolution), the Iranian government's repression of the Ba'hai's is inexcusable. According to the information I have, this is largely a result of the fact that Ba'haiism emerged as a heretical offshoot of Islam. If so, this does not make it justified or acceptable in the least. No government in the West today would engage in this kind of restriction of human rights in the name of religion, even in countries whose governments still have official links to a state Church.

I do consider these repressive attitudes to be directly related to traditional Islamic theology which, finding these practices as imperatives given in the Koran and seeing that book in a rigid, literalistic way, immune from the mitigating influence of any criticism, historical contextualizing or revisioning, is incapable of developing any serious ethic of tolerance and pluralism beyond what the strict letter of the text authorizes or commands. As long as the Koran remains so tightly closed and ahistorical, it seems to me that the Islamic world will always be subject to agitation toward violence and dictatorship to some degree or another and the foreclosure of any real hopes for dialogue and co-existence between the Moslem and non-Moslem world.

The above has been translated from the French by Bill Blum author of the indispensible, "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" Portions of the books can be read at: ">">http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm>

try to point the finger at your government's fault before the muslims as a whole please. (by the way i admire him and have read his books, he is truely a genious.)
Posted by: Shia

Oooohh.. I can't wait for the author to show up on npr.. any day now any day. Maybe I can find an excerpt in "THE NATION" or in "MOTHER JONES" or the Village Voice perhaps. Ooops.. why do to those *extremes* when I can find that in the *mainstream* New York Times!

Shia.. you need to quote reliable sources. This is like telling us there is no God but alla because that's what it says in the koran.

GOOD GRIEF!

The count is getting higher and higher. I think that by Dec. 2006, it will be 2 billion. What's your opinion folks ?
Posted by: arjun.sevak

I am with you on that Arjun. Sad but true.

hierophant, you are friends with whomever you wish to be but let's not forget your country actually roams and lives on Illegal immigrants and Immigrants who will work for 20 british pounds a day to work from 12 in the afternoon all the way to 3 or 4 o clock in the morning, Minimum wage for the average british citzen is 5.5 pounds an hour, britain is not making any money the consumer loan is 2 trillion pounds. Please hold on tight to your American friends my dear sir. Your days of pride and your empire have long gone. Thanks to tony that is.
Posted by: Shia

Keep insulting them and maybe they'll stand up and show you a bit of something. When they finally do.. YOU HOLD ON TIGHT!

Arjun, how do you plan to tackle this issue?
Posted by: Shia

I do. Where's the button?

Fred, Unfortunately we have had several bad governments since 1992, first Rabin-Peres-Beilin, then --skipping over Netanyahu who was sabotaged by Peres & Beilin-- Ehud Baraq, then Sharon who didn't start to fight against the mass murderers for about one year in office until the Park Hotel massacre [March 2002]. A physician told me that Sharon had suffered small strokes four or five years before he went into his permanent coma. He told me he had seen signs of this, then I mentioned signs that I had seen without understanding them. Anyhow, Sharon was not in good health throughout his time in office and his mind was not properly functioning.

Shia,
Since you hate Sunnis so much, why not hate the Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini --a loyal Sunni-- along with me?? However, I don't like your attempt to find excuses for his collaboration in the Holocaust. As to the Mufti's alleged fight against British imperialists, in fact, the British administration in the Land of Israel [ardh Isra'il] allowed the fake "Arab revolt" to go on for three years, from 1936 to 1939. See the book "Revolt by Leave" by Horace Samuel. Do you deny the Iraqi army's massacre of Assyrians in 1933?
See link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/05/father-of-arab-nationalist-fake.html

So the oft made claim that "palestinians" are innocents suffering from the West's alleged sense of guilt over the Holocaust is another big lie.
Search on the Net for info on Haj Amin el-Husseini [al-Husayni] and Hitler.
Posted by: Eliyahu

Even worse - the muftis use our sense of guilt to further their own evil ends...

shia, if you want more info on Husseini's collaboration with the Nazis and in the Holocaust, see The Mufti and the Fuehrer, by Joseph Schechtman; The Third Reich and the Arab East, by Lukasz Hirszowicz, and many other well documented books on this matter.

enslave wow do they teach you that you can enslave people in your schools? or is that something you came up by yourself. culture has nothing to do with knowledge nor science. Islam is a religion not a culture. Arab leaders have always been cowards and they have betrayed their cause a very long time ago that has NOTHING to do with islam that was pan-arabism.

It's called Darfur.. then there was enslavement in Southern Sudan.. Not so much noise about THAT one in the MSM since the people being enslaved were Black CHRISTIANS and ANIMISTS. Now that they are enslaving fellow moslems tthe MSM and Bush are at least talking about it.

So yes, enslavement. Or does the Koran have another name for it that we must learn to add to our growing vocabulary here?

I speak for myself, but I'd be living a PErFECTLY HAPPY life if I'd never heard about your gooddammn unholy book! I have to desire to add words such as "fatwa" and "infidel" and "kafir" and let's not forget the loveliest of them all: "jihad".

The IDF also did not know about the Syrian listenning posts in the Golan area, whereby the Syrians used the latest Russian equipment to get the drop on IDF communications. There were many lessons to be learned in that brief conflict, but have no doubt that the IDF will learn and adapt.

I always thought it would be foolish for Israel to give back the Golans. Case in point.

templar, interesting post.

Can you bring me proof of the "severe" repression against the jewish and christian minority please? The only religion not allowed to practice in Iran are bahis. I have been to a synagog with a jewish friend of mine and he was russian jew as well. I invited him into a mosque, and Imam Retha a shia saint's shrine.

I know I am not Templar, but allow me.. this one's JUST TOO EASY.

Jews are NOT even allowed ENTRY into SWOdi A**rabia and Christians are searched for Bibles. There is NOT ONE SYNAGOGUE IN SOWdi A**rabia.. The brave and fearless warriors of jihad kill little Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia.. shall I go on?

Shiasm says that christians and jews go to heaven just like muslims who are devoted to humanity, and those who do wrong will go to hell. plain and simple.

Hey, why don't you switch from SHIASM to ORGASM. It may relax you.

As for the islamic raids, I am sorry to say that most of the killing and invasions started on the days of the third caliph Omar and when Imam Ali was in power he preached most dialogue and which is why he was assassinated by other factions i.e Kharajites and Muaweyah. As for the Islamic raids of spain and Europe these were done by the Ummyad caliph which we curse, and they killed many shia saints. all decendants of the prophet mohammad.
Posted by: Shia

Darn.. HATE WHEN THAT HAPPENS!

Shia
my dear friend
"The people are waking up to what is the truth. Shiasm the true Islam."

Yeah whatever

I think Osama will probably disagree with that.
How do you get on with the Kurds?
Interesting what Hugh posted earlier this evening, will the followers of Ali be able to contain the Kurd's desire for a homeland stretching from Turkey Syria Iraq to Iran?
I think a greater Kurdistan should be encouraged- as someone famous once said
Divide and Rule!

To indicate we do not want war. Iran has not invaded anyone in 150 years. The last shia tryants you can ever think of where probably the Safivds dyanyst in the 1600's whom were fighting WITH the british against the otthoman turks.
Posted by: Shia

Uhh.. taking over an embassy is TANTAMOUNT TO INVASION, you idiot. An Embassy is SOVEREIGN TERRITORY of the Nation they represents.

You muftis keep going on with your half-facts and in combination with outright lies you try to wear people down. I have time all day and night. I'll teach you how to think if you want me to.

Good God. I didn't vote for him! Didn't vote for Kerry though either.

This time I will vote. If Tom Tancredo (Republican) runs, you can bet he's the best man!
Posted by: americaningermany

GO TOMMY GO!!!

americaningermany if Tom Tancredo does not run for office, you just hold your nose when you vote for any other Republican, as anything else is far far worse.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess

What if it's dhimmi McCain.. ? Or is he also fooling everyone about his real Badass self so he can get elected and kick the living daylights out of these guys? Somehow I am not very hopeful on that one.

if you want a republican in office.. ANY Rebube will do for you.. I advise you to accomplish one simple thing:

GET HILARY ON THE DHIMOCRAT TICKET.

That should ensure R victory or years to come.

I have also heard that Guiliani might run for pres. That would also be okay.
Posted by: americaningermany
'

Yes he'd be GREAT! He was down there minutes after the planes hit the towers. Not 3 days later like Bush.

He also rejected the SOWdi money after the donor attached anti-Israel language to it. I think he should have donated the money to Israeli Charities that provide services to suicide bombing victims and their families. I think that would ahve gotten the message across while using the devil's money for good.

But yes, Giuliani is INDEPENDENT in his thinking and the party hierarchy will do **whatever it can** to keep him off the ballot. He showed he is unbribable when he refused that money. Can't have that inside the Beltway, can we?!

Heh it's politics, not barbarism. :) He understands everything about sunni extremism but if we seperate lenient sunnies we will lose and the islamic republic will be gone.
Posted by: Shia

And good riddance too!

Sunnies get hyped easily, It's best to use them to weaken the israelis why should Iran kill other shias? If israel is weak they will not have a hand to reach to Iran.
Posted by: Shia

Yes, but you see.. they don't get weakened by this at all. In fact it is proof of hat the non-Leftist folk over there have been warning about!

Israel is weak only during "peacetime" if you can call it that.. when PC Jews come over from America and infect the place with their leftist nonsense. I haven't met a single NATIVE Israeli who likes the "Arabs" as they call them. It's their built-in self defense mechanism.

of course they want peace but they are realistic and they don't read the Voice every week.

THEY KNOW THE ENEMY!!

What you need, Shia, if you wish to weaken Israel you have a ceasefire with them - you know they cease, you fire. Like the hesbos do it.

americaningermany, I just believe you are filled with hatred maybe you need to resolve this and seek spiritual guidance. lol
Posted by: Shia

May I suggest a trip to the mountains of Waziristan where she can meet up with such spiritual luminaries as Osame bin Laden and Mullah Omar?

She could resolve her hatred by emptying a few rounds into them for starters. I know it would work for me!

Hey, I wasn't there not trying to justify nazi acts, but i just like to calculate and have proof before i believe anything.
Posted by: Shia

You say you like to have proof before you believe anything, right? Let me ask you this:

Do you believe there is no God but Allah and that Mahomet is his prophet? If so please share with us what proof you have.
Posted by: germaninamerica

Hey, Shia.. You've posted an awful lot since I asked you to enlighten me on this one. See above.
let me repeat my question. And please do share with us:

Do you believe there is no God but Allah and that Mahomet is his prophet? And what proof do you have?

Hey, and we thought Elvis was dead!
Posted by: americaningermany

Actually, I am beginning to think ol' Osama has finally kicked the can. Someone recently mentioned that large "funeral" we didn't allow our military to attack. It may have been held for that ol goat-molester.

Lack of attacking such juicy targets is ONE reason for our casualties, by the way.

What the intelligent,logical Chinese think about the Iraq war : War is won not through strength but through skillful manipulation - a victory of the writing brush and brains over sword and strength. War is not just the function of the military but is the exercise of the entire societal body. And it is here that the US military behemoth fails: America's socio-economic fabric as a whole is not designed to win the current wars, regardless of what seems to be enormous and constantly increasing investments in the country's military machine.

Shia said:

"Ahmedinejad can deny it if he likes, infact anyone can. Isn't this what democracy is all about?"

As somebody more famous said, "You are entitled to your opinions, but not to your facts". Has anyone ever seen any Muslim rationale for denying the Holocaust? (And I mean "rationale", an argument based on reason and not on wishful thinking.) I thought we'd nailed that one with the David Irving business.

kung fu fighter, do not think the US weak because it uses restraint, in the West that means power. China has not fought an all out war, was destroyed by the Japanese during WW2, it took the Brits and AMericans to save them. China is getting fat and lazy with wealth and the middle class wants more freedom. Christianity and democracy is coming into China via the back door. China's leaders have been ruthless, and are trying to keep the lid of freedom, but human nature as it is, people chose to be free in the end.

Limes said: "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, by the smoke, and by the brimstone; is becoming realistic. The President knows this, and he should be cut some slack on a personal level for trying to avoid it. But it is what it is. The way out has been long established."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Some who study Bible prophecy think since Iran is predicted to come against Israel and Iran will be the strong man in the Middle East that just perhaps God used Bush to take out Iraq for the reason mentioned, that Iran would be made the strong force in the ME. Iran certainly doesn't have to worry about Saddam anymore. This scenario also speaks to the fact that Iran is ABLE to do so, taht is go against Iran, so apparently that indicates that we (the US) have not attacked Iran or if we had did not do enough damage to thier capabilities to stop thier attack on Israel. Just something to chew on.

americaningermany nice to see the vitriol is flowing well today, just love your comments

deep regards

Holger Dansker

Wow, I leave and everyone attacks my new friend Shia and for what? Just because he is a muslim, you are all Islamaphobic. Shia has admitted, he likes the west and is also prepared to fight it with all his strength if it comes to it. He has hinted that he would rather fight Sunni’s and not us but would fight us to get to the Sunni’s. Something about 1400 years of payback being due. He is impressed with the military might of his homeland and doubtful the US would win in a confrontation with Iran. He has repeated his theme it is only the government of the US that he dislikes not its people.

Me being the non islamaphobic type and his new found friend I can only say this in his defense. He came and took licks on line, defended his own viewpoint and was not out hiding in ambush holding a cell phone activated bomb activator and scouring the countryside looking for an American convoy. I have admitted that his is not my enemy but if Iran attacks Iraq I would go back on active duty (if they would take me) and help crush the Iranian military, which I still believe would be the outcome. Shia, feels otherwise and good for him. I for one enjoy muslims on this site for a few reasons, I like to ascertain their agendas, if they have one and I like to chat with them. If we can’t beat them here we have no business hunting them on the battlefield. Do I think they are violent, absolutely, more are than not. I still like to meet and know both my enemies and potential enemies. So encourage the conversations between us while it only involves a few threats and we just might learn a few things. Maybe in a few hundred years we could all be friends.

Some who study Bible prophecy think since Iran is predicted to come against Israel and Iran will be the strong man in the Middle East that just perhaps God used Bush to take out Iraq for the reason mentioned, that Iran would be made the strong force in the ME.

if that's why Bush invaded Iraq it would be an impeachable offense. I still think it has to do with money. He is a Repube after all.

Ronin,

lol it is ok i understand why they maybe upset with Islam. Again i have said that it is the fault of some muslim's actions but this never means we are all bad. I hope that people come to realise violence is not always the way, if it comes to us we are ready to fight, just as we were ready to over throw the shah and fight the baathists.

Thank you for trying to show them i am understanding.

It is not a matter of "some" muslims, to us seems most are bad. Not just because of bombs. we don't like the threats, the attempts to change our religion nor the intolerance of others. Keep in mind we see more Sunni but many can not tell who is who. It only takes a few apples to rot the entire basket. If muslims do not throw out the bad apples we will be forced to do it ourselves.

Islam -- the Koran -- and it's evil governmental system falls to pieces once a person comes to realize this simple yet profound truth about Mohammad -- that he was a mere man and a false prophet.

FYI..the President of Iran has virtually no power, except for administering the government, he does not establish foreign policy or laws.. and too much attention is paid to him, which of course flatters him and puffs up his ego.

You can't equate the President of Iran or the President of any Country to the position of President of the United States..in fact the POTUS has unconstitutional power and has usurped the constitution.. a long process that started in the 19th Century.

Point here, being, that the real authority, the real power in Iran is the Supreme Leader (Ayatollah al Khameini) AND the Revolutionary Council or Guardians (a nepotonistic hereditary cabal of mullahs).

Although Ahmadinejad is great entertainment, I think that he is being used by the Revolutionary Council as distraction and a ruse..what they would call on Times Square or Coney Island..a shill, whose job is to distract the audience, so the shyster can pull off his sleight of hand.

Israel is their country of origin.

It seems to me that these people - moslems - think that the the west has no spirituality, no sense of self, or self in place and time. They seem to think that the great treasure chest of learning, of striving towards God, of striving towards a belief, a system of living, a sense of being and a sense of being in place and time, is reserved to them and to them alone - that in some sense the disgusting and vile outpourings of the diseased mind of the so-called prophet mohammed represents the earliest stirrings of the self-awareness of mankind.

How wrong they are. Such hubris. Such deformation of history. Such arrogance. Such lies! The west's spiritual treasure chest is not empty - it is full to overflowing. The west's philosophical treasure chest is likewise. The west's religious chest is also brimful.

The failure of western societies and countries is not that they have failed to store up great treasures but that they have failed to use them, to deploy them, against such patent idiots as Amedinijad (I rather like his nick-name of Ameddinnerjacket, by-the-way); that they have failed to deploy the weapons in our armoury which they should have used; that they have allowed those weapons to be neutralised by the forces of rampant political correctness; that a stupid and illiberal class has gained control of the thought processess of western societies and has decided that all who think differently from them are wrong and must be destroyed by law.

We have witnessed, in our lifetimes, the ridiculous idea that the cultures of all races should co-exist equally in one country come to be accepted as something that is desirable. What utter rubbish! The culture of my race is mine. It exists in this time and at this place which I define as mine. All other cultures are inimicable to it and it doesn't take a great brain to see that. I do not, nor could I, pretend that the culture of my race is in some sense superior to all others - but it is at least, at the very least, equal to all others.

I will not pretend, ever, that the culture of my race is based solely on skin colour, or on gender, or on sexual orientation, for any of those positions are manifestly, and provably, untrue. I will not even aver that the culture of my race is based upon the locus of my people, for that, too, would be silly and provably untrue. But I will assert that the culture of my race is based upon the shared and historical striving which all our ancestors have contributed to - that such a striving has been done in one place, Great Britain; that such a striving has been done by one people, Celtic/Anglo-Saxon/British Imperial, is undeniably true.

In striving towards our freedoms and our democracy, in striving towards our systems of justice and our sense of human rightness and rights, we have evolved a common identity, a commonsense of purpose, a commonality of being and a shared spirituality based on our Christian past that moslems, and others who have moved into our world in search of a better life, simply don't, and can't, understand. Call me racist if you will, but people who cannot subsume their pre-existing identities into ours should not be welcome, nor made welcome, in the UK.

Those who move here and wish to continue to be primitive villagers from the third world, who do not wish to change one jot or tittle of their former lives, who cannot expand their horizons to cope with the magisterial philosophical revelations about the human condition that western societies have uncovered, should not be accepted or made welcome in our world. They are primitives and they need to grow up and accept that the great onrush of humanity has left them, and their primitive belief systems, behind.

They are not welcome here. They are not wanted here. Most of all, we do not accept the validity of their simplistic and evil, by our standards, beliefs. It is time for them, in particular the barbarian moslem horde, either to change or to leave. Since they are incapable of change then the latter is what has to happen - regrettably, for we will be the more ignorant and the poorer for their departure -- but a damned site safer!

Dominic.

Ahmad states that, "Israel no longer has any reason to exist and will soon disappear."

Radical Islam wants us ALL to disappear, not just Israel, and their desire to destroy Israel is only the beginning for the rest of us.

bgordon -

Well said!!

"kung fu fighter, do not think the US weak because it uses restraint, in the West that means power…… China's leaders have been ruthless, and are trying to keep the lid of freedom, but human nature as it is, people chose to be free in the end."

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at October 21, 2006 06:46 PM

Zena, America is not weak, but the American just don't understand the principles of war which, generally formulated by Sun Tzu in China 2000 years ago and by Karl von Clausewitz in Germany 200 years ago, are based on deception, the creation of false appearances to mystify and delude the enemy, the indirect approach, ready adaptability to the enemy situation, flexible and coordinated maneuver of separate combat elements, and speedy concentration against points of weakness.

If China's leaders have not been ruthless, Chinese people would have been out of control like what is happening to Iraq without Saddam. You are dealing with 1.3 billion of Chinese people -- a lot of people! Freedom can only be granted to Chinese people in a gradual process, like Western democracy is only acceptable to the Arabic Iraq in a gradual process.

"Let me guess! kung fu fighter is living in a Western country. He/she knows full well that war is won through SKILLFUL manipulation.
This is what the Chinese also do BEST!"

Posted by: americaningermany at October 21, 2006 06:53 PM

Americaningermany is a sophisticated American in Germany!

All kung fu fighters know that to subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skillful manipulation.

"We need China on our side and I think the younger generations are. I think they'll be better allies than the Euros in fact."

Posted by: germaninamerica at October 21, 2006 04:23 PM

I agree with you! But such a possibility would require a global crisis, which might not happen because the collapse of the US economy and geopolitical/military machine would not just be a disaster for the US, but might send tsunami-type waves all over the globe. The majority of America's global adversaries -- China, for example -- would try their best to prevent US society, including its socio-economic and even military structure, from collapsing like the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001.

Because of this, the elite of US society would most likely operate more or less in the same paradigmatic framework, regardless of who occupies the White House. And for this reason the behemoth of the US military machine and society in general would be slowly worn down, regardless of the future occupants of White House and innumerable billions of dollars invested in more and more expensive and exotic military gadgets.

A geopolitical retreat, manageable and gradual if possible -- and this is a desirable scenario for most of the rest of the global community -- would create a vacuum that could well be at least partly filled by China.

Oh, and before you doubt how great we are let me just give you a few names: let us start with Cranmer and move on to Einstein and think of Keats and Shelley and Chaucer; what about Hodgson or Hofding; Craig, or Martin Heidegger; Streng or Griffiths or Powers; Zurcher and his brilliant study of the buddhist conquest of China; W.V. Quine and his 'Methods of Logic'; P.T. Geach's 'Reference and Generality'; Euclid or Diophantus; Gutenberg, Napier or Keppler; Shakespeare, Meredith or Bosquet; Pope or Palafox; Kipling or Carlyle; Francisco Sanches (Quod nihil scitur); the Comte de Saint-Simon; R.M. Hare or Berlin and his 'Four essays on Liberty'; or George Turnbull and his 'Principles of Moral Philosophy'; or Newton or Halley or Roemer; or, and here is a really great mind, Mendeleyev or Gibbs or Planck or John Fleming; or ... ...

Google any of them. I'd need a thousand thousand pages to detail all the triumphs of our western society - and those, just simply, to list the names. What's wrong with us? Why do we seem to want to give in to the barbarian moslem horde that has no validity and the contribution of which to sum total of human happiness and knowledge is precisely zero, nothing, naught and, perhaps, even less than that.

Why do we no longer teach our children about our huge, massive, gigantic, colossal, achievements. Why are we raising a generation which thinks that we have no value and that we are, in some sense, equal to the moslem barbarian horde. What the hell do we think we are doing?

Dominic.

Hi Dominic,

Sorry I missed you. I've been out and had to do some work in between posts when I got back in. Thank you for the invite but I gots to go to bed! I've got a sick father and a kid with a birthday today and this morning is going to come early. I'll catch you later!

Isabella

My jaw dropped and my heart sank upon reading Shi'a's assault on historical fact:

"Let's presume that the nazi's killed 6 million jews even though i do not think they have reached the technology of gas chambers at that time."

I do believe in free speech, but I see no purpose or value in affording Holocaust deniers the platform in which to spin their dark fantasies in the name of pseudo-scholarship. For that one comment listed above, I would request Mr. Spencer ban this person from the site. I and my wife lost far too many relatives to the Nazis in camps in Poland and Latvia for me to accept such hateful rhetoric as this.

What is the purpose, I ask, of re-opening established truth to those who simply wish to deny the facts? Should we also now debate the provenance of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Do comments such as these not take us many steps backwards? Should we not provide Shi'a with links to some of the countless Neo-Nazi sites found on the Web, where such a person might find they validation they seek? Hugh? Robert? Can somebody please explain why this individual is given a platform at this site?

I'll end with a link to a detailed list of the camps:
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/General/ListeEng.html

Isabella/

Understood. My prayers at this mornings mass will include you and yours.

Dominic.

Dum Dhimmi Dum Dum Dum/

Why on earth do you attempt to debate with 'Shia'. You cannot change the mind of a moslem - no matter how hard you try, their minds are closed and already made up for that is the true mark of the beast.

I was taken, as a very young and impressionable teenager, round the Death Camps by my Grandfather before he died. We were accompanied by a distant cousin who had survived the horrors of Auschwitz and the purposes of the trip were to tell me about the family which we had lost because they were German and Polish Jewish and to allow him to say kaddish for all those whom he, and we, had lost.

Some others had survived and returned to where they had lived previously - I have heard and recorded their testimony. As long as their transmitted memories, and we, survive nothing that the likes of 'Shia' can say can alter history. If we ever forget then he and his ilk will win. Never forget.

Visit:

http://www.yadvashem.org/

and say kaddish - or an appropriate prayer for dead - as you read through the site.

Dominic.

Dum Dhimmi Dum Dum Dum:
Robert Spencer now and then says that he thinks the best remedy for bad speech is usually more speech, not censorship. That rejection of censorship, to me, is the American way. And I suspect Europe would benefit if it abandoned its censorship laws and adopted something like the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. You want to illegalize the idiocy of holocaust denial, but you seem not to see that that form of censorship would lead to censoring other kinds of speech that you would consider legitimate and necessary. Thus in Europe and Australia it can sometimes be legally risky to criticize Islam.

I do think the commenter named "Shia" would do well to answer a smart question someone asked of him:

Why does he claim to be concerned about "proof" when it comes to the Holocaust, but not require proof when it comes to the statement that "there is no God but God and Muhammad is his Prophet"?

By his flirtation with Holocaust denial, "Shia" doesn't seem to realize that for most Westerners he thus links himself to two things: Nazism and abysmal ignorance.

Shia wrote (as I recall) that the Middle East is uneducated, but it is uneducated of Shia to flirt with Holocaust denial when the Holocaust has been documented amply and repeatedly, and the proof is readily available for anyone of good will. Why is it that "Shia" has such a difficult time finding the proof? Perhaps he doesn't care about proof as much as he pretends.

"Shia" may mean well, but when it comes to the Holocaust, to me he sounds rather like Ahmadinejad. "Shia" chokes on the gnat of finding proof for the Holocaust but easily swallows the camel of Islam without proof. That asymmetry does not demonstrate a very strong commitment to proof; it arguably demonstrates hypocrisy. Well, just about everyone is guilty of hypocrisy at some time or other, and worse sins exist.

I have relatives who died in the Holocaust. My father is Jewish, and my grandparents spoke to me sometimes of European relatives who didn't get out of Europe in time, despite warnings.

Traeh

Wrong. JihadWatch has a policy not only of deleting posts calling for the genocide of all Muslims, but even a lot more benign posts, such as emptying manure over the Qa'aba have been deleted in the past. So it's not like everything that comes here stays or sticks.

Ronin

If you don't mind, I'd like a word with Shia, despite this thread having gone way past the double century mark.

Shia

Your assertion above

Kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123),
slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52),
be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads;
then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4).
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Al-Bukhari, vol. 4, 55

sir this is not the Quran. This is al bukhari he is a sunni islamist. Which shia heavily critise sometimes we even use his books to prove sunni scholars of their errors from their own words. (i must note a lot of his work has been edited during the years by extremists like Ib taymiya etc)

Madam, we do NOT want anyone to be muslim by force, that is comming from muslims whom are peaceful, it is your choice your decision to accept or not. Instead of preaching hatred how about you try to speak of peace and maybe those muslims can learn to accept how things are around the world. Islam has many sects, Wahabism is the most extreme. Al qaeda is extreme but not muslims. I will also show you who funded these people in day one when other muslims actually TOLD them not to do it mainly IRAN who hated the Taliban and gave the americans Air space to attack them.

Also, the US neither asked nor received Iranian support in that campaign; rather, it attacked from Pakistan and Tajikistan. And even had Pakistan chosen to suicidally support al-Qaeda, the US could still have levelled both the Taliban as well as eviscerated the entire Pakistani military - nukes included.

As for the population, as Arjun and Naso pointed out, two things:

• The total population of the ummah is 1.3b at best - doesn't exceed that.
  
• Of that, 1b is easily Sunni. The Shia population is an asterisk, and even if you take Wikipedia's numbers, you don't get much more than 200m Shia worldwide.
  

Shia said:

The last shia tryants you can ever think of where probably the Safivds dyanyst in the 1600's whom were fighting WITH the british against the otthoman turks.

Political Rights and Civil Liberties

Iranians cannot change their government democratically. The most powerful figure in the Iranian government is the Supreme Leader (Vali-e-Faghih), currently Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khamenei; he is chosen for life by the Assembly of Experts, a clerics-only body whose members are elected to eight-year terms by popular vote from a government-screened list of candidates. The Supreme Leader is commander in chief of the armed forces and appoints the leaders of the judiciary, the heads of state broadcast media, the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Expediency Council, and half the members of the Council of Guardians. Although the president and parliament are responsible for designating cabinet ministers, the Supreme Leader exercises de facto control over appointments to the ministries of Defense, Interior, and Intelligence.

All candidates for election to the presidency and the 290-seat unicameral parliament are vetted for strict allegiance to the ruling theocracy and adherence to Islamic principles by the 12-person Council of Guardians, a body of 6 clergymen appointed by the Supreme Leader and 6 laymen selected by the head of the judiciary chief (the latter are nominally subject to parliamentary approval). The Council of Guardians also has the power to reject legislation approved by parliament; disputes between the two are arbitrated by the Expediency Council, another non-elected, conservative-dominated body, currently headed by former president Ali Akbar Rafsanjani.

The legitimacy of the June 2005 presidential election was undermined by the Council of Guardians' rejection of all but 8 of the 1,014 candidates who registered to run. Numerous irregularities, such as intimidation of voters by the military and hardline vigilantes, were reported in both rounds, but there was little evidence of systemic fraud.

Corruption is pervasive. The hard-line clerical establishment has grown immensely wealthy through its control of tax-exempt foundations (bonyads) that monopolize many sectors of the economy, such as cement and sugar production. Iran was ranked 88 out of 159 countries surveyed in Transparency International's 2005 Corruption Perceptions Index.

Freedom of expression is limited. The government directly controls all television and radio broadcasting. Satellite dishes are illegal, though widely tolerated, and the authorities have had some success in jamming broadcasts by dissident overseas satellite stations. The Ministry of Culture must approve publication of all books and inspects foreign books prior to domestic distribution. The Press Court has extensive procedural and jurisdictional power in prosecuting journalists, editors, and publishers for such vaguely worded offenses as "insulting Islam" and "damaging the foundations of the Islamic Republic." The authorities frequently issue ad hoc gag orders banning media coverage of specific topics and events. The government systematically censors internet content by forcing internet service providers (ISPs) to block access to a growing list of "immoral sites and political sites that insult the country's political and religious leaders."

At least eight newspapers were suspended or closed by the authorities in 2005, and those that remained open were intimidated into practicing self-censorship. At least a dozen journalists and bloggers (writers of internet journals known as "weblogs," or "blogs") were indicted or convicted of press offenses during the year, and many more were summoned for questioning about their writings. In January, the authorities closed down one of the country's leading ISPs for violating filtering restrictions. In October, the Supreme Cultural Revolutionary Council, a body of clerics handpicked by the Supreme Leader, issued a ban on foreign films that promote immorality, violence, drug usage, liquor consumption, secularism, liberalism, anarchy, or feminism.

Religious freedom is limited in Iran, which is largely Shiite Muslim with a small Sunni Muslim minority. Shiite clerics who dissent from the ruling establishment are frequently harassed. Sunnis enjoy equal rights under the law, but there are some indications of discrimination, such as the absence of a Sunni mosque in Tehran and the paucity of Sunnis in senior government offices. The constitution recognizes Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians as religious minorities and generally allows them to worship without interference so long as they do not proselytize. However, they are barred from election to representative bodies (though a set number of parliamentary seats are reserved for them), cannot hold senior government or military positions, and face restrictions in employment, education, and property ownership. Some 300,000 Baha'is, Iran's largest non-Muslim minority, enjoy virtually no rights under the law and are banned from practicing their faith. Hundreds of Baha'is have been executed since 1979. In February, a military officer was discharged and sentenced to three years in prison for "deceiving the armed forces" about his conversion to Christianity.

Academic freedom in Iran is limited.Scholars are frequently detained for expressing political views, and students involved in organizing protests often face suspension or expulsion by university disciplinary committees. In the months following his election, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad replaced the heads of at least a dozen major universities. The appointment of a conservative cleric, Ayatollah Abbasali Amid Zanjani, as head of Tehran University in November touched off a protest by hundreds of students.

[...]

The judicial system is not independent, as the Supreme Leader directly appoints the head of the judiciary, who in turn appoints senior judges. General Courts ostensibly safeguard the rights of defendants, but in practice suspects are frequently tried in closed sessions and without access to legal counsel. Political and other sensitive cases are tried before Revolutionary Courts, where due process protections are routinely disregarded and trials are often summary, lasting as little as five minutes. Dissident clerics are tried before the Special Court for the Clergy. The penal code is based on Sharia and provides for flogging, stoning, amputation, and death for a range of social and political offenses; these punishments are carried out in practice.

[...]

Although women enjoy the same political rights as men and currently hold several seats in parliament and one of Iran's vice presidencies, they face discrimination in legal and social matters. A woman cannot obtain a passport without the permission of a male relative or her husband, and women do not enjoy equal rights under Sharia statutes governing divorce, inheritance, and child custody. A woman's testimony in court is given only half the weight of a man's. Women must conform to strict dress codes and are segregated from men in most public places.

Freedom House uses a point scale from 2 to 14 to rate every nation in the world in terms of civil liberties and political rights. The less free a country is, the more points it gets. Iran received a rating of 12 in the 2006 report. That's almost the worst possible rating. Iran is tyrannical.

Infidel Pride said:

Wrong. JihadWatch has a policy not only of deleting posts calling for the genocide of all Muslims, but even a lot more benign posts, such as emptying manure over the Qa'aba have been deleted in the past. So it's not like everything that comes here stays or sticks.

Robert Spencer now and then says that he thinks the best remedy for bad speech is usually more speech, not censorship.

I learned from and enjoyed your response to Shia.

traeh said:

"That rejection of censorship, to me, is the American way. And I suspect Europe would benefit if it abandoned its censorship laws"

Well, in Britain not so long ago Parliament threw out the Government's plans to make it an offence to criticise someone else's religion. So maybe it's the British way as well. And of course it cuts both ways. Those veiled women in another thread are expressing their opinion, however outrageous and ridiculous, but they shouldn't be censored. Besides, it's just as well for everyone to know what they think. They don't seem to realize that the more this sort of thing comes out in the open, the worse they look in the eyes of the majority -- and a good thing too!

Traeh

Thanks. I owe you one for your list about the chronological sequence of the surahs that you provided some weeks back in another post.

As for Shia's post, Dum Dum was objecting to holocaust denial being tolerated on this forum. Since we know that posts do get deleted and posters do get banned, I don't fault him for demanding that such posts get deleted. I know that Robert/Hugh might prefer to leave them on, just to show other visitors to this site that Ahmadijihad is by no means the only holocaust denier in Iran. While this may well be because hate speech by Muslims on this site is pedagogic, while that by Infidels tars the site, it does convey an impression that this site could as a result be following the same PC standards as society at large.

From shia's reply to Infidel Pride above.

"sir this is not the Quran. This is al bukhari he is a sunni islamist. Which shia heavily critise sometimes we even use his books to prove sunni scholars of their errors from their own words. (i must note a lot of his work has been edited during the years by extremists like Ib taymiya etc)"

I do not want to read the kuran again and argue about its fine points. I only know that muslims are people who

1. Do not shave

2. Think that sacks are the way to be.

3. Think that their childrens education is incomplete without sawing off the heads of goats/sheep/camels/cows.

4. Want their womenfolk to wear a black tent.

5. Think that 4 - 5 marriages are okay.

6. Buy girls (for marrying them).

7. Think that women should be stoned.

8. Think that people who stop them from doing all this (infidels), should have their heads sawn off, their womenfolk raped, their children sold into slavery.

They have a formidable record of 1350 years of putting these beliefs into practice ; and that is all that I need to know. Whether a muslim is shia/sunni/islamiya/ahmadiya/kurd/sufi, is immaterial. A muslim is a muslim. Period.

RT: now that's a good oxymoron, "logical muslims." Albeit, there are good Muslims that I know, just few and far between in my midst.

Hey everybody! Guess what... Mr. Hitler is winning. Threats and intimdation work....

So far nothing has happened to him or his nation.

Shut up or put up, he says.

Everybody shuts up including the Security Council. He says it's no longer legitimate. He's right.

Domenic & Traeh,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful and on-point responses. Emotion often takes over when I am dealing with the subject of Holocaust denial. I couldn't agree more that it is best to allow for the free flow of ideas, regardless of how hateful. I guess my point was that so much positive and useful discussion comes thru the threads on this invaluable site, it seems like a waste to have to take steps backwards to address comments like Shi'a's, because I feel that such statements cannot be allowed to go unanswered. But I concur and again, appreciate the intelligence and support provided by both of you.

Domenic, thanks for the Yad Vashem link. An excellent site, and yes I do recite the Mourner's Kaddish regularly for personal losses and any losses of innocent life of which I am aware. In fact, I posted an english translation of the Kaddish in my comments following Robert's euology for Ms. Fallaci.

To echo Domenic's comments about remembering, I'll post a couple of quotes on this subject which were part of Elie Wiesel's Nobel Prize acceptance speech:

"Remembering is a noble and necessary act. The call of memory, the call to memory, reaches us from the very dawn of history. No commandment figures so frequently, so insistently, in the Bible. It is incumbent upon us to remember the good we have received, and the evil we have suffered. New Year's Day, Rosh Hashana, is also called Yom Hazikaron, the day of memory. On that day, the day of universal judgment, man appeals to God to remember: our salvation depends on it. If God wishes to remember our suffering, all will be well; if He refuses, all will be lost. Thus, the rejection of memory becomes a divine curse, one that would doom us to repeat past disasters, past wars."
_____

"The great historian Shimon Dubnov served as our guide and inspiration. Until the moment of his death he said over and over again to his companions in the Riga ghetto: "Yidden, shreibt un fershreibt" (Jews, write it all down). His words were heeded. Overnight, countless victims become chroniclers and historians in the ghettos, even in the death camps. Even members of the Sonderkommandos, those inmates forced to burn their fellow inmates' corpses before being burned in turn, left behind extraordinary documents. To testify became an obsession. They left us poems and letters, diaries and fragments of novels, some known throughout the world, others still unpublished."

From: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1986/wiesel-lecture.html

Thanks again.

PS. I laughed out loud when reading Shi'a's claim that the NY - um, New Duranty - Times is biased in favor of Jews/Israel. Puh-leaze!

I'm afraid.
It looks so much the same: only 60 year ago we've seen a crazy man who came into power using democracy as vehicle.
He wrote he wants to control the world.
He wrote he wants to kill all Jews.
Nobody took him seriously.
Everybody waited that the cloud will be over, and normal life will continiue.
Allas, it didn't: only after loss of 20,000,000 lives, and enourmous resources, the evil was over.
Where are we now?
A crazy person wants to control ('islamize')the world.
He says it.
He says his goal is to kill all Jews ('to destroy the state of Israel').
He builds atomic bombs.
The whole world - and the UN which was established EXACTLY for such situations after WW2 - waits that the cloud is over, and normal life is continiued.
It woun't.
WW3 is in the door.
This time with atomic bombs.
I'm so afraid.

Whether a muslim is shia/sunni/islamiya/ahmadiya/kurd/sufi, is immaterial. A muslim is a muslim. Period.

Posted by: arjun.sevak

That's all we need to know, tied up with a bow.
/poet and didn't know it

Ahemdinut must think that some how making 1/2 dozen nukes makes his country invincible if he can get them made ,man is he nuts so he might in a few years beable to build a few 5 kt bombs hmm at last count the usa has over 7000 nukes in sillos on trident subs and gravity type nuke and it would only take a day to reconvigure the b2s and the b52s to carry them and in 24 hours could turn iran into a sea of radioactive glass we might loose wa dc in the iranin attack but is that realy a loss it sounds like Ahemdinazi
wants to meet satan aka allha soon