CAIR discovers that I am not a Muslim

You have nothing to apologize for. But I'm sure there will be the usual outrage from the ones with thin skins. The hell with them-if they find the truth painful then that's their problem. Keep on telling it like it is!

Spencer writes:

"But essentially the only two choices on this question are these: either Muhammad received divine revelations, or he didn't. Non-Muslims do not believe Muhammad was a genuine prophet."

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church would apparently disagree.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, Muslims together with the Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God."

How could Muslims logically adore the same God as Catholics, unless Mohammed's revelations -- which underpin, define and reveal the Muslim God -- were in fact genuine?

http://www.carm.org/catholic/muslims.htm

Remote:

To say that Muslims adore the one God as do Catholics is not the same thing as saying Muhammad was a prophet. If the Catholic Church believed Muhammad was a prophet, it would have a very different character. The statement you quote is simply an acknowledgment, whether or not you believe such an acknowledgment is legitimate, of the fact that Muslims, as well as Christians, believe in one God who revealed himself to Abraham and Moses, etc.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

If you believe Mohammed was a false prophet it implies that you do not respect Moslems qua Moslems.

This is the age of Relativism - one is NOT allowed to 'disrespect' anyone's 'truth'.

Oh My ! Ask an impertinent question and you get an impertinent answer!

The idea that someone would be incited to commit violence against Muslims because I stated that I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet is beyond asinine --
true.

I used to consider Pat Robertson, a bit of a flake (perhaps senile) from some of his past statements, but watching the interview I've gained a new respect for him. He "gets it" with Islam and is refreshingly NOT politically correct. I just wish other media talking heads would have the courage to join Pat in his unfiltered assessment of Islam. Bravo, Pat Robertson, and again, congrats to Robert for continuing his reputation of succinct, articulate, interviews.

Robert you answered as honestly as one would expect.
Non muslilms do not believe in mohuammed, and so do not believe he had some direct link to God. The problem with muslims is that they leave their islamic countries for the "West", and they want us to agree with their islam. I think if they had a philosopher such as "Voltiare" he would of been stoned to death, chopped up, beheaded. Voltaire's famous statement is the corner stone to "Western Civilization" and its too bad the French who produced him have been recently timid to stand up to his statement.

To be fair, there'd be an uproar if you said any religion is fraudulent for any reason. (Except, of course, Christianity. That's the only religion that I know if where it is allowed to be attacked at all times, in all ways, by anyone and everyone.)

It's a strangeness of our times, that somehow conflicting claims of all sorts are somehow all supposed to be correct. (But that is a discussion that goes beyond what we need to here.)

The difference with Islam is that the response is not just angry words, but threats of violence. And not just that, but the bullying that comes to force everyone to apologize and agree with them.

But you knew this already!

I agree completey with the first comment! Those that are offended already will be the most offened and that is most of the muslims. Seems like if we wear our hat or any clothing wrong, they are offended and Start protesting, rioting,
burning cars(ala france) and it just escalates from there.If they are so offended by us or what we do, wear, how we act, etc then they can leave
for good and see how their actions would tolerated back "home" in their birth country. I wish they would leave but I stand ready to fight them to the death if need be. I will never stop being who the Lord called me to be, especially for their sakes.

Mohammed is a much a prophet as The Amazing Criswell.

OMG that was much worse for Islam than anything I have ever seen or heard before.
Thank you Robert that was perfect.

Remote_Control,
Reading further, in the Companion to the Catechism, "The sacred council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING(my caps); for the benefit of all men, let them TOGETHER(my caps) preserve and promote peace,liberty, SOCIAL JUSTICE, and moral values." (This is on pg 348 of the Companion, FYI) The "One,merciful God" to a Catholic, is comprised of Three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that, since the Muslims do not recognize Jesus as a prophet, much less God, maybe they don't adore quite the same God as I do. Allah appears to equate to the the Catholic God the Father, who I also adore, but the Trinity id central to my belief, and Allah (single?) is central to Muslim belief.

The statement you quote is simply an acknowledgment, whether or not you believe such an acknowledgment is legitimate, of the fact that Muslims, as well as Christians, believe in one God who revealed himself to Abraham and Moses, etc.

Excellent interview on CBN. Robert Im new to this forum and your books but I can honestly say now I am a fan! God bless you.

Monty Python , can we have a "Life of Muhammad"
please or "Blackbeard the Bedouin" to avoid offending any religions.

Wow! Thank you to Robert Spencer and Pat Robertson for an excellent program!

C.S. Lewis gave three alternatives for Jesus: he was what he said he was, he was a liar, or he was nuts. The matter is a little more complicated since it is not always clear what Jesus said he was, and much Christian doctrine accreted after his death. With Muhammad, the three alternatives work better. He seems to have taken care that his followers get his doctrine right, although this did not prevent them from developing disparate ideas about the succession which allowed them to murder each other with the same abandon as early Christians. In any case, it is possible that Muhammad was not a fraud, that he believed that he was getting divine revelations. In other words, that he was not a liar but nuts. Or perhaps that he started out as some sort of well-intentioned liar and eventually became nuts enough to believe his own lies.

Jihadwatch reached a whole new audience with the appearance on the 700 Club. We need them.
I just watched a segment on CNN's Headline News about islamic women in the UK and how they are not oppressed. When the woman interviewer asked if they were opressed, they all laughed at the exact same time...like it had been rehearsed. (Who us, the female ninjas?) Reminded me of a scene from "Mars Attacks"...."don't run, we come in peace"....Zap!

The problem with the Catholic Church's way of embracing (however subtly gingerly it might be as Spencer has accurately worded it in his response to me), rather than boldly anathematizing, Muslim theology is that the equation of the God of Islam with the God of Christianity -- and again I quote from Catechism 841, "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" -- glosses over the fact that for Muslims, the Trinity is anathema, while for Christians, the Trinity is God.

Thus, Muslims anathematize Trinitarians for their God, while Catholic Trinitarians embrace the same Muslims for their God Who anathematizes -- and, incidentally, damns to eternal Hellfire -- the Christians!

It is high time that the three branches of Christianity (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant) convene an ecumenical council in order to declare Islam a Judaeo-Christian heresy and put an end to this gingerly nonsense once and for all.

A spade is a spade.

Great interview.

I'm glad Robertson brought up the disservice that President Bush provides with his ROP mentality.

I hope that in your next interview with him, you'll be able to further shock his audience with a discussion of 'revert vs convert' and 'Allah is also the God of Judaism and Christianity'.

I'd bet that most of them have no idea.

oh no they are not oppressed even though according to Islam their whole body is a sexual object therefore must remain veiled. Darn it if they could only find a way to cover the EYES too --you know sexy EYES on a women will make a good muslim commit a sin against allah and tip the scales of allahs judgement against him. (PS the only way to avoid being judged on a scales way according to exmuslim now turned christian Prof Ergun Caner (a Turkish exmuslim who tells it like it is about Islam) is to commit jihad then you are guaraneteed a place in paradise. yes sir).

There is a series of 6 free videos titled "Former muslims testify about Islam) where this man and his brother (who also left Islam) talk to Christian talk show host about what they were taught growing up in Turkey regarding Islam and Muhammed. The tapes can be bought for $80 or so OR you can view them FOR FREE on this site which is allowing them to be seen in order to help spread the truth like Robert Spencer is doing. I warn you : these are very addictive, pull up a comfortable chair, get some tea or milk or something and watch...

http://www.islameyat.com/english/audio/former_muslims/former_muslims.htm

If someone thinks that the Muslim belief-system and the revelations are fraudulent that is their business so long as they don't force Muslims to accept their beliefs as fact. The Muslim attempt to force society or any person to treat their belief-system as a fact is mental illness. No person should be required to treat any belief-system as fact.

Sorry to split hairs, but 'fraudulent' is the wrong word here. 'Fraudulent' implies a deliberate deception with the intent of gaining an advantage at the expense of others. 'False' is a better word for a belief system.

P.S. The talk show host of the above videos I mentioned in my last post is Dr John Ankerberg of the Ankerberg Theological Research Institute.

"Non-Muslims do not believe Muhammad was a genuine prophet."

Robert;
I have not yet read your book on Muhammad, but this subject is interesting in that it stands between two lines of thought. One ,that he was given revelation from "god", the other, he made it all up be forming his faith using the partial faiths of others.

Your answer is the same for both? He is a false prophet because his revelation was not from god, or he just "made it all up"?

I happen to lean with he was the receiver of the word of "allah", through a demon, he was mislead and taken over. This , in a way, is better to use in exposing his actions and deeds, better than he "made it all up".At least in my view, how it looks to me. It fits what is told of his early beginnings as the leader. He could have got the word for revelation, it just was not "god".

I know what many here feel about religion and the devil, demons, possession, but which side is your answer more likely to take?

Perhaps you would prefer to stay quiet about this, that is perhaps wiser. Just a interesting area for me.

Islofob interestingly enough a famous christian protestant agrees with you: HAL LINDSEY said in an audio interview "I do believe that an angel appeared to Muhammed in the desert. The god of this world came as an angel of light..."

take care

THE ALLIES SHALL WIN;
I have heard Hal, and what he said, he has a like feel for this as I.
Thank you , you take care as well.

Mother,

But how many Muslims believe that he is?

there is no God but God and I am his prophet.

it is politically incorrect to deny this.

start sending wine women and money.

Islob yep Hal is great!
Mother Ecclesiatica you are soo right. I went to the Catholic college at U of T, so was around alot of Catholics, am Orthodox and now alot of evangelicals and not one of these people believes Allah is God. All those types of Christians after all believe God is a Trinity and sent His Son to Earth. Allah ont he other hand... well you know what 'allah' that little pagen moon god believes Im sure!

Oh I talked to Prof Barry Brown who knew the great catholic philosopher Etienne Gilson personally. One thing I found was while Gilson praised Averroes as a thinker he always laughed when people asked him about similarities of Allah and the God of Israel. There is just no comparison of course! oy vey!

correction I meant "...and I KNOW alot of evangelicals also..."

How could Muslims logically adore the same God as Catholics, unless Mohammed's revelations -- which underpin, define and reveal the Muslim God -- were in fact genuine?

http://www.carm.org/catholic/muslims.htm
Posted by: remote_control

I'd have to chalk that one up to Catholic Tacquia. I am CERTAIN the Pope doesn't think of Mahomet as a Prophet. And I don't think Woytyla Pope John Paul did so either. I know he kissed a Koran and I am revolted even thinking of that. But it is part of their Tacquia when you must remember that the Church has been under attack and in decline from within our countries ever since the end of the Great War. Let's not forget these guys used to run things in Europe. Kind of if the American President were to ride around a lot and give speeches and meet up with the faithful but without any real power to do things.. oooppps.. that day may come in November. My bad.

I just watched a segment on CNN's Headline News about islamic women in the UK and how they are not oppressed. When the woman interviewer asked if they were opressed, they all laughed at the exact same time...like it had been rehearsed. (Who us, the female ninjas?) Reminded me of a scene from "Mars Attacks"...."don't run, we come in peace"....Zap!
Posted by: Carolyn2

THAT is EXACTLY what is so WRONG with the media!

Who the hell cares if moslem women are oppressed discriminated against? They have countries where they can live comfortably amongst people just like them.

WE Westerners DO NOT HAVE that luxury any longer!!

Yet the band plays on..

INCITEMENT: ROBERTSON CALLS QURAN 'FRAUDULENT,' SPENCER AGREES

Yes and so what? Why would that bother them so much?

It's because they know Robert researches and speaks out against them, giving voice to thousands who have misgivings about this cult. Thousands and growing.

Besides.. they want to stay in the spotlight and the media are always willing to pick them up.

The idea that someone would be incited to commit violence against Muslims because I stated that I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet is beyond asinine --
true.
Posted by: chrisinsouthc

Yes, but moslems might of course be incited to violence by that. As per their nature.

We can approach this several ways. Answering the question of Muhammad being a genuine prophet
questions Muhammad directly, This is not allowed by Muslims or Infidels and would most likely cause an immediate violent response. We could call into question all living Muslim scholars who claim the amazing ability to guide Muslims using the will of Muhammad. In my mind that gives them the knowledge and ability of Muhammad which I would think makes them at least his equal, as they know his will. That equality violates the Sharia and should also cause an immediate and violent response. We could encourage the different types of muslims to discuss Islam and its written word and decide which sect is the “true” Islam, this solution would most likely cause an immediate and violent response. We could simply ignore all muslims and hope they go away. To fully ignore them we would have to break all contact, business, professional and even charitable that option would cause an immediate and violent response. In the end every “solution” has one common theme “an immediate violent response”.

Does Islamic verse or an over reaction to Islamic verse cause the violent response? Does Islamic verse or a misguided application of Islam encourage violent behavior? Does it really matter? The victims of Islam cross every cultural, economic and geographic boundary. Worldwide the biggest single killers of Muslim are other Muslims. Maybe, the end of Islam will come from Islam itself. If not it would seem only prudent to make preparations for an immediate violent response from Muslims, if they are nearby.

I saw one today wearing the traditional style clothing (all black dress, veil and head scarf) with a twist. She had a camouflage shirt over the dress. I am still wondering what message she was attempting to send with that look. I’ll have to check but I don’t think muslim women observe hunting season, I could be wrong.

I just found this little gem while looking for the statement they made about Robert.

What we have here is a little dhimmi venting. I thought I'd share this disgusting display of brainwashing as a warning to us all.

The premise being: Were I a muslim living in the West.

WHO on Earth DRAGGED them over here to live??!! Who is forcing them to stay if things aren't to their liking?

So many questions..

TARGETING MUSLIMS - THE NEW INQUISITION - TOP
Bradley Burston, Haaretz, 10/20/06
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/775898.html

Were I a Muslim living in the West, I'd be mad as hell. Not to mention terrified.

Were I a Muslim living in the West, I'd begin to believe that a new Inquisition had begun. An inquisition aimed at no one but Muslims.

Were I a Muslim living in the West, my wife, or my sister, or my daughter might well decide to wear a headscarf or a veil when she went out in public.

Perhaps it would be because she was tired of men and boys ogling her, objectifying her. Perhaps it would be because she felt she was entitled to her dignity. Perhaps she simply might prefer modesty and privacy to fashion slavery.

Perhaps she just thought it was a free country.

And perhaps, on that last point, she would have been mistaken.

For years, and especially since 9/11, law-abiding Muslims have been verbally and physically attacked across North America and Europe. They are scorned for their faith, shunned for their piety, falsely condemned for dual-loyalty, blamed for the crimes of terrorists they abhor.

Of late, however, there has been a disturbing new trend, particularly in Europe, where cabinet ministers and influential lawmakers have increasingly made it their mission to combat, of all things, the head scarf and veil worn by growing numbers of Muslim women and girls. (MORE)

I am a Christian and my close friend, although Jewish by upbringing, is an agnostic and regards revealed religion as illusory and essentially fanciful. Therefore he regards beliefs which I hold sacred as being little more than fairy stories. I on the other hand regard his agnosticism as the result of narrow-mindedness and try to encourage him to at least explore his own religious traditions from a spiritual rather than just historial and cultural perspectives. Given that he and I disagree on things that are in some ways fundamental to our respective ways of seeing and experiencing the world, do we therefore disrespect each other? Is our friendship an illusion? Can humans only love and regard those with whom they agree on everything? Even ten years ago this question could not have been sensibly posed, even if merely rhetorically as it is here; what is becoming of us all?

I don't seen an issue here. As I'm sure others have posted, unless you are Muslim, Mohammed is not a prophet. To call him such is to accept him as such, which in my opinion would validate Islam as the final word on Abrahamic religions, and bolster Muslim claims that Islam is the final revelation. I'm on the fence regarding which (if any) religion as being the true word of God, but I know for certain that the fallible theology of Islam is _not_ it, and definitely the worst choice for humanity.

"She had a camouflage shirt over the dress. I am still wondering what message she was attempting to send with that look."

Why, the alliance between the Greens (Islam) and the Reds (Marxist revolutionaries), of course.

Catholics may well have deluded themselves into thinking that...

You may well have deluded yourself into thinking you understand Catholicism.

and again I quote from Catechism 841, "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"

Have you read and studied the whole Catechism of the Catholic Church, Or are you picking and choosing parts of it out of context to attack it with???

For a better grasp of the Catholic understanding of Islam, here are two excellent sources I highly suggest you check out:

Un-Holy War: Catholic Reflections on September 11th and Beyond
http://www.saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=233
By Dr Scott Hahn, Catholic Theologian

Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Islam-Catholics-Robert-Spencer/dp/0965922855/sr=8-6/qid=1161478268/ref=pd_bbs_sr_6/102-1878057-3884965?ie=UTF8

adobe,

"Have you read and studied the whole Catechism of the Catholic Church, Or are you picking and choosing parts of it out of context to attack it with???"

I'm not "attacking" either the Catholic Church or its Catechism. I'm criticizing them from what I can see.

I'm sure that most of the Catechism has nothing to do with Islam at all, so it wouldn't really be relevant. If you can adduce anything from the Catechism that overturns what I quoted, I'd be glad to see it.

The two sources you cited are unavailable to me unless I buy them, so I can't read them. Secondly, two books you cite are not official books on Catholic Catechism; they are merely books by Catholics who are not in the Church hierarchy (furthermore, Spencer has said he is not a Roman Catholic).

Again, it seems to me that Christians in general should formally define Islam as a heresy.

Would the Catholic Church issue formal pronouncements about the theology and churches of such arch-heretics as Valentinus, Arius or Marcion in terms of

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Valentinians, Arians and Marcionites; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"?

I think not. So why does Islam get a different treatment, when their theology is even more offensive than those heresies were to the Triune God of Christianity and to the Christians who adore Him?

I think a lot of posters here are engaging in needless speculation and splitting of hairs on whether the word can Fraud or False etc., As Non Muslims any of us are completely at freedom to believe either. That Mohammed is either false/fraudlent etc., In essence that summarizes why we are not Muslims. Whether we believe or not believe that he was true to himself but honestly mistaken or a cheat out to exploit gullible people is our choice. And CAIR etc are denying that to people like Robert. In fact our argument here is that even Muslims(similar to Christians/Hindus) should be having this freedom and should be able to opt out of being Muslims--with our non Muslim definition of freedom. So as is the wont of Islam, it is being on the counter-offensive.

RT

For a better grasp of the Catholic understanding of Islam, here are two excellent sources I highly suggest you check out:

Un-Holy War: Catholic Reflections on September 11th and Beyond
http://www.saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=233
By Dr Scott Hahn, Catholic Theologian Posted by adobe

If I want THE Catholic understanding of anything I read Papal Encyclicals or ask the Pope, what you sourced is AN opinion by someone who is a Catholic Theologian.

You have done exactly what Muslims do, sift and sort, cut and paste find one lone voice or opinion to bolster a particular party line.

And FYI. I am a former (actually a recovered Catholic, now ranked amongst the non believers, those hated and detested by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike), not just a Catholic but a traditionalist, Catholic Truth, SPPXII and all.. real gung ho ..

One thing I learned from all of this is that there are no winners in the battle for god, and if this boils down to a battle for god.. then all is lost and tyranny awaits in the future.

Robert, I know you would go wherever invited to spread the message. However, this broad alliance of infidels that you are trying to build simply will not pass if you continue to appear on Pat Robertson or any such person's show. It is simply not very wise to do so -- some diplomacy is needed. Pat and his ilk hurl absurdities at possibly every group imaginable except the Evangelicals. Yes, I know guilt by association tactics will be used by the media types, but I am not talking about the media types. Robertson genuinely repulses a vast vast amount of people who are sensible and might be recruited in this broad alliance but will for some reason create that association that association and turn to the more soothing leftist message.
This is not about evangelism. Hell if Billy Graham did (does he?) TV shows, none of the sensible people would mind your message appearing on it and may accept it. But Pat Robertson is just a despicable person.
Thats all I have to say.

"there is no God but God and I am his prophet.

it is politically incorrect to deny this.

start sending wine women and money".

Posted by: germaninamerica

Sign me up. What's the name of the new religion, prophet?

"And FYI. I am a former (actually a recovered Catholic, now ranked amongst the non believers, those hated and detested by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike), not just a Catholic but a traditionalist, Catholic Truth, SPPXII and all.. real gung ho .."

I don't hate or detest you. You are an apostate, and I pity you. It's not the same as being an atheist.

As to the other point by remote_control, Islam IS a Christian heresy. Mohammed is the founder of this heresy, and is therefore a heretic. CAIR can be upset about it, but it does not change it. Any Christian not playing political games and rhetorical cat-and-mouse must say that Mohammed, as a heretic, was a false prophet, and his Qur'an is fraudulent.

Not to worry, Nariz. The Qur'an is also illogical, errant and internally inconsistent, so you don't have to believe in God to come to the same conclusion.

Spencer writes:

"But essentially the only two choices on this question are these: either Muhammad received divine revelations, or he didn't. Non-Muslims do not believe Muhammad was a genuine prophet."

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church would apparently disagree.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, Muslims together with the Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God."

How could Muslims logically adore the same God as Catholics, unless Mohammed's revelations -- which underpin, define and reveal the Muslim God -- were in fact genuine

__________________

Well, not to re-hash an old subject, but just for the record...

I'm Catholic and I DO NOT believe that the revelations Mohammed received were genuine or divine. Demonic would be more like it. However, the devil likes to mix truth in with a lie to make it more palable. Truth is still truth. But I guess that concept just isn't getting across.

All this talk about the Catholic catechism, calling an ecumenical council to condemn Islam, etc. is interesting.
Whether it IS Christian/Catholic taqiye I can't say, but according to the teachings of the Church, most non-Catholic denominations are considered heretical in their teachings. We don't call Protestants "heretics" anymore because lately we've come to realize that most Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, et al. were born and brought up in their denomination believing it to be right and true. Thus, the individual believer has not him or herself committed an act of heresy. The Eastern Orthodox are considered "schismatic" because they're not in union with Rome. But the average Serb, Russian, or Greek did not make a conscious decision to separate from the Roman Communion - obviously since they weren't ever IN the R. C.
As for Moslems, many theologians I've read have indicated that Islam might be a heresy of Christianity. Certainly a lot of MoHAMmed's semi-Christian tales are very similar to those of the gnostics and their gospels. He certainly gets the Virginity of Mary right - but also confuses her with Moses' sister Miriam.
Islam would be no problem were it confined to the regions it and its culture have made desolate. But they are all over the world. They are benefiting from the culture and institutions of THE WEST, which they belittle and eventually hope to destroy.
Thank God for people like Robert who are very astutely exposing Islam from its own scriptures, traditions and teachings. Those who are being exposed to the message can't help but "get" it.

(Monday is the feast of St. James {Sant Iago}, who appeared in the sky over Spain in a vision which inspired the Christians to rid themselves of this Pest once and for all.)

I've protested for more than a year to my local paper to stop calling Mohammed "The Prophet Mohammed." To no avail. I explain that his "Prophetyness" is a matter of faith, not fact, and they should be in business of facts. No avail. I hate that. Prophet my ass.

Pat and his ilk hurl absurdities at possibly every group imaginable except the Evangelicals. Yes, I know guilt by association tactics will be used by the media types, but I am not talking about the media types. Robertson genuinely repulses a vast vast amount of people who are sensible and might be recruited in this broad alliance but will for some reason create that association that association and turn to the more soothing leftist message. This is not about evangelism. Hell if Billy Graham did (does he?) TV shows, none of the sensible people would mind your message appearing on it and may accept it. But Pat Robertson is just a despicable person. Posted by: Tushar Saxena

I happen to share your dim view of Pat Robertson, having seen him disparage all religious groups in the past. Also, I dunno about Evangelicals, but I don't find him persuasive at all, even when he is telling the truth - like in his closing clips about Islam after Robert got off. Besides, some of his past comments - not his Hugo Chavez death wish, but his comments implying that Ariel Sharon deserved his turn of health, or his comments (or was it Falwell's?) that the US deserved 9/11 due to its 'angering God' viz gay activism, abortion, et al - do make him more of a liability than an asset.

Having said all that, I see exactly where Robert is coming from. In the genuine anti-Jihad movement (as opposed to the quasi anti-Jihad movement that's only opposed to terrorism, but has nothing against the 'peaceful' Islamization of the West and other parts of bilad ul Kafir), we have extremely few allies. Just look at the landscape of public figures - be it here in the US, Canada, Europe, India, Israel, Australia, Russia... How many major 'celebrities' can you name who are where we are re: Islam and Jihad?

As a result, I've long concluded that we do not have the luxury of turning down marginal groups that happen to be on our side on Islam, even if we may normally cringe at most of their other stances. In the case of Christian evangelical organizations, I've noticed that the ones that are tolerant of Hindus are also tolerant of Muslims, while the ones who are intolerant of Muslims generally also have a dim view of Hindus, although probably not to the same degree. So which one can we pick for an ally? For me, I'd rather hold my nose and support Pat Robertson, at least as long as there are no other major mainstream groups that are anti-Muslim, but not, say, anti-Hindu. Similarly, I normally happen to not endorse Hindutva in India, since I believe in the rights of Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Parsis, Jains et al to feel equally welcome, but since that's the only mainstream Hindu movement that's opposed to Islam, it has my support. If the 700 Club is the only TV show willing to discuss his book, why not take it? (Besides, in the clip, when Robertson asked him about the West returning to Christianity being a solution, Robert pointed out that all Infidels - Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus - should unite against this campaign.)

To put it another way, my first priority is opposing Islam, and to do that, I'm willing to support anybody seriously doing it (or at least, not oppose them), no matter how tarred they otherwise may be. That way, when my other allies, like JihadWatch, do ally with them, I'll look the other way for the plain and simple reason that Islam is being opposed. The day Islam comes crashing down like Communism did in 1991 (although these days, I fear they are making a comeback in Old Europe and in US academia), I'll end any support for them before they even realize it.

Billy Graham has been hospitalized for a while, the last I checked, and in the days following 9/11, Franklin Graham is on record as calling Islam an evil religion. I don't know their stances re: other non-Judeo-Christian groups.

To the other posters who fault Robert for agreeing with Robertson on the revelations being fraudulent, the response should be, "Duh!" If I were to gain a cult of my own, and told my followers that our God has asked me to ask them to part with their most valuable possessions, would I get away with it with Law Enforcement, or would they respect that as a religion and let me keep what I received? Among Mohammed's revelations include

• Allah wants him to marry a 6-year old;
  
• Allah wants him to marry his daughter-in-law, and is willing to outlaw adaption in order to legitimize it;
  
• Allah wants him to keep the lions share of booty won in war for himself, and Mohammed, being more magnanimous, decides to split the remainder equally among his followers;
  

Robert

Looks like you aren't the only one on CAIR's cross-hairs. John Gibson, on FoxNews, is now accused by them of incitement, for simply saying, "Speaking as an American: no Sharia law, no veils. If you're here, be American."

I hope John Gibson has you on. I've asked him, while alerting him to this 'incitement' notice.

Also, has your book been reviewed on C-Span, under, say, Book Reviews?

I saw some of Gibson's 'My Wofk' last week; also noted it on CAIR's website.

Sent him a note of support.

Robertson is not the most respected ally, but he has a large audience.

Posted by: poetcomic1

"This is the age of Relativism - one is NOT allowed to 'disrespect' anyone's 'truth'."
---

Yeah, and that's because of political correctness. Obviously some people are wrong and some are right. I think it's time to start calling a spade a spade!

You may well have deluded yourself into thinking you understand Catholicism.

Posted by: Mo

"To be fair, there'd be an uproar if you said any religion is fraudulent for any reason. (Except, of course, Christianity. That's the only religion that I know if where it is allowed to be attacked at all times, in all ways, by anyone and everyone.)"
----

Indeed, and I blame that on political correctness too. It's typical "christophobia," or anti-christian prejudice or whatever they call it...

Re: I never said it wasn't part of Catholic doctrine that Muslims worship the same god as the Catholics, I said such belief by Catholics is delusional (a belief following from false premises).

I used to believe this crap. I'll admit I WAS one deluded Catholic until a couple of years ago.
I'll put my hands up and admit this too. I very NEARLY converted to Islam a few years ago. I have the excuse that I had been through a very very rough time and was vulnerable to being brainwashed. I went out and mingled with Muslims and spoke with them, conversed on the internet etc.
I swear, the conversations we had and the crap I heard from them soon snapped me out of my emotional turmoil, and made me realise although I was a bit depressed, at least it wasn't me who was mentally ill.
Actually, I am grateful to them for that. I've had a very nice life since then without some emotional cultish crutch to lean on.

P.S. Just to add, I am a 'cradle Catholic' born into Roman Catholicism.
It's scary the number of Catholics who convert to Islam though, as many are deluded into thinking Allah is God.

And I don't believe that Jesus was the messiah? Are some Christians going to attack me???

"And I don't believe that Jesus was the messiah? Are some Christians going to attack me???"
Posted by: TeachESL

Yeah, their going to beat you, stab you, amputate your limbs, stone you and then behead you.

Be real. Now if you say something offensive about Jesus, you may (horrors!) have to endure their defending him... verbally, and hopefully respectfully.

Even more frightening, you may have the violent threat of some Christians praying for you too

A very old Syriac Christian book tells the teachings and experiences of the early Christian monks in Egypt. In this ancient book, Paradise of the Fathers (Translated from Syriac by A. E. Budge), there are several stories of demonic deception, possession, and demonic visions. Many of the stories sound rather similar to Mohammed's experiences.

From the perspective of my faith, there are only three possible views one may hold concerning Mohammed:

He was insane or a fool;
He was a liar: or
He was a demoniac.

Islam is a Christian heresy. So in a sense, they are followers of the same God, but but their worship and belief in Him are wrong. Christians are to hope for the welfare and salvation of all, with love hoping that God will show mercy to all, including those deluded by pleasing lies. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, cited in the post above is no doubt trying to state this.

I'm a recovering agnostic—I accidentally found something I believe in. But no, I am neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant.

And I don't believe that Jesus was the messiah? Are some Christians going to attack me???
-posted by: TeachESL at October 22, 2006 08:18 AM

Sure, we'll attack you. Jesus said, "Let him who has no sin throw the first stone." We're just trying to find out which one of us is sinless so we can begin.

Christians will have much to answer for in the Last Judgement. Too often we, who should be leading people to God, are the reason people don't believe. St. Clement of Rome (Second Letter, 13.3; 1st or 2nd century A.D.) said it very well: "For when heathen hear from our mouth the oracles of God, they wonder at their beauty and greatness; afterwards, when they find out our deeds are unworthy of the words which we speak, they turn from their wonder to blasphemy, saying that it is a myth and delusion."

Muhammad (and any believing muslim) calls Christianity and the New Testatment fraudulent. They suggest that the crucifixion and resurrection were invented. So why doesn't CAIR condemn itself?

I think that in the end the problem with Islam as opposed to Judaism and Christianity is so obvious that it is very often overlooked. That is the nature of God in the different religions. In the Judeo-Christian tradition everyone who believes has a personal relationship to God, and they can argue, wrestle, accuse and love God. When things go right they can say thanks, and equally when things go wrong they can ask why? In fact this relationship is central to how Jews and Christians relate to God. These two Great religions put a direct, personal and intimate relationship with this caring Loving God at the heart of their message. Also the Judeo-Christian God allows total autonomy for mankind. This means we are ultimately responsible for our own actions, and it is up to us to decide on the course of action we take as dictated by the doctrine of free-will.

Islam on the other hand never allows the individual to relate to God on such an intimate level. In Islam you can only obey God and never question or "horror of horrors" argue with God this means that it is only God's will and God's desires that are important. What you want counts for nothing as you submit to this despot. The only way you can interact with God and glean a limited understanding of him is through intermediaries such as the Koran and the Hadiths, as it is totally impossible to know God directly.

Theologically speaking this is not Monotheism, belief in on single personal deity, but Pantheism. By this I mean that God is everything and we are nothing. Our existence and, by default, our will is totally subordinate to his and we are contingent to him. This also leads to predestination, where our past present and future is laid out and there is nothing we can do to change them.

When you consider the differences, I think any rational person would argue that the belief in a loving God to whom you have a personal one to one relationship with, who cares about you, your needs and wishes and who asks rather than demands that you love, not only him but, your fellow man can only be a true reflection of what God should be like. By contrast the Muslim God is a distant, impersonal, wrathful, vengeful Tyrant. He demands your worship and obedience, without reciprocating on a personal and meaningful level.

If I want THE Catholic understanding of anything I read Papal Encyclicals or ask the Pope

Then I encourage you to do so... I thinks its great that you have a personal line of communication with the Holy Father...

what you sourced is AN opinion by someone who is a Catholic Theologian.

I listed those two sources because they are easy to read and understand. Both are for the layperson and well within the Catholic understanding of Islam. Studying either is a very good way to see the Catholic perspective on islam.

You have done exactly what Muslims do, sift and sort, cut and paste find one lone voice or opinion to bolster a particular party line.

What I have done is defend my faith from attacks from the likes of people such as you. I also attempted to give legitate resources for further study, which as usual are dismissed outright.

In fact, your intolerance of religion is much like the intolerance of a muslim towards other religions...

And FYI. I am a former (actually a recovered Catholic, now ranked amongst the non believers, those hated and detested by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike)

Thats very unfortunate, I am sincerely sorry to hear that you have rejected Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ outright. I hope you have a turn of heart. However unlike in islam, in Christinaity you have the freewill to reject Our Lord.

I am suprised of your rejection in light of you stating that you have read the Encyclicals of the Holy Father. They are not light reading.

Unfortunatly, it always seems as if the nastiest, mean-spirited anti-Catholicism comes from ex-Catholics. I encourage you to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. You will be happy to note he was not Catholic.

One thing I learned from all of this is that there are no winners in the battle for god, and if this boils down to a battle for god.. then all is lost and tyranny awaits in the future.

Funny, but my Lithuanian grandmother would say the opposite. Having lived through the initial Nazi occupation and then part of the Soviet occupation of Litunaina, she often said how much the Communist's and Nazi's not only rejected Our Lord, but had a hatred of him...

adobe, I await something you can adduce from the Catechism that either overturns or helps me reinterpret the plain sense of the passage I quoted above.

The leader of islam (Muhmd) ,never spoke to god when he lived on the earth, only to the angel sent by "allah". That is where the issue is, a "revulation" given to one, for all, by another who SAID was sent by "the one".

A demon never had it any better.

allah, and the Christian God, have two different messages, how can that be?

I await something you can adduce from the Catechism that either overturns or helps me reinterpret the plain sense of the passage I quoted above.

Remote, here is some information for you to read by Pope John Paul the Great. Note the distinctions he makes in regard to the Trinitarian aspect of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit in relation to what muslims believe.

Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the one God
General Audience of Wednesday, 5 May

Along the path marked out by Abraham in his submission to the divine will, we find his descendant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, who is also devoutly invoked by Muslims, especially in popular piety.

2. We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: "To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen'"(1 Tm 1:17).

We know that in the light of the full Revelation in Christ, this mysterious oneness cannot be reduced to a numerical unity. The Christian mystery leads us to contemplate in God's substantial unity the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: each possesses the divine substance whole and indivisible, but each is distinct from the other by virtue of their reciprocal relations.

3. Their relations in no way compromise the oneness of God, as the Fourth Lateran Council explains (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.... It does not generate, is not begotten and does not proceed" (DS 804). The Christian doctrine on the Trinity, confirmed by the Councils, explicitly rejects any form of "tritheism" or "polytheism". In this sense, i.e., with reference to the one divine substance, there is significant correspondence between Christianity and Islam.

However, this correspondence must not let us forget the difference between the two religions. We know that the unity of God is expressed in the mystery of the three divine Persons. Indeed, since he is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:8), God has always been a Father who gives his whole self in begetting the Son, and both are united in a communion of love which is the Holy Spirit. This distinction and compenetration (perichoresis) of the three divine Persons is not something added to their unity but is its most profound and characteristic expression.

The full text can be found here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM

God as Logos, Allah as Will
Father James Schall on Benedict XVI's Regensburg Address

Q: At Regensburg, Benedict XVI highlighted the Christian understanding of God as Logos. How does the idea of God as Logos differ from an Islamic conception of God?

Father Schall: The Holy Father posed the fundamental question that lies behind all the discussion about war and terror. If God is Logos, it means that a norm of reason follows from what God is. Things are, because they have natures and are intended to be the way they are because God is what he is: He has his own inner order.

If God is not Logos but "Will," as most Muslim thinkers hold Allah to be, it means that, for them, Logos places a "limit" on Allah. He cannot do everything because he cannot do both evil and good. He cannot do contradictories.

Thus, if we want to "worship" Allah, it means we must be able to make what is evil good or what is good evil. That is, we can do whatever is said to be the "will" of Allah, even if it means doing violence as if it were "reasonable."

Otherwise, we would "limit" the "power" of Allah. This is what the Pope meant about making violence "reasonable." This different conception of the Godhead constitutes the essential difference between Christianity and Islam, both in their concept of worship and of science.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zlogoswill.HTM

Well then let me understand this fully. It is ok for every Muslim in this world to not recognize Jesus as a prophet. Yet it is not ok for anyone in this world to not recognize Muhammed as a prophet, lest ye be killed? Or have anything to say questioning the matter, lest ye be killed. But it is ok to offend religion, full of prophets, only if you are a Muslim. Hmm. Hardheaded comes to mind. That is probably why they count the dead of suicide bombers by the detached heads found. Seems to me Christians take discrimination lightly, Muslims take it violently.

Remote,
This may also be of some help in understanding the relationship between islam and Catholicism.

ARIANS AND MUSLIMS

Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium" had this to say about Muslims: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" (LG 16).

Those 44 words don't really say much other than that Muslims say they worship the same God that we do, but some people have read into that one sentence that Islam is just like Christianity, only a bit different. Well ...

In the early years, the Church battled heresies such as Arianism and Pelagianism and Monophysitism. Sometimes there were literal battles, with Catholics and heretics taking up arms against one another, and sometimes the heresies came close to winning the field. There was a time, for instance, when most of the world's bishops were Arians, not Catholics.

The Church of those years understood that, had any of the heresies prevailed, Christianity would have gone into eclipse because it would have been reduced to something radically different from what its Founder had established.

The ancient heresies were almost orthodox. Arians, for example, believed what Catholics believed, except they said that Christ had only a human nature, not both a divine nature and a human nature. To many it seemed like such a small difference, but in fact it made all the difference in the world. Ditto with the other heresies of those centuries.

So here we had the Church understanding that these "almost Catholicisms" were incompatible with the true faith. There could be no rapprochement between the heresies and Catholicism. The Christian world had to become one thing or the other, just as our own country, a century and a half ago, could not forever remain "half slave and half free." It had to tip one way or the other. There was no long-term "peaceful co-existence," to use Khruschchev's term.

And yet look at those ancient heretics. They professed "to hold the faith of Abraham," and, together with Catholics, they adored "the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Each of those heretics was far closer to the Catholic faith than are Muslims, and yet Catholics in those years were clear-eyed enough to see an insurmountable incompatibility between the faith of the Church and the faith of the heretics. So near, yet so far.

Fine. Vatican II affirmed that Muslims, however incorrect their understandings of God, worship the same God that we do. (The same can be said of Jews, of course.) But many Catholics draw a false conclusion: that there is no fundamental incompatibility between Christianity and Islam.

see full text here:
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060321.asp

I hope this info is of assistance to you

While there are similarities between Islam and Christianity, something I heard long ago points out their differences with simplicity:

In Islam, the word of god is the Quran, it is the primary revelation of god. Mohammed, the so-called prophet is secondary. They idolize a book.

In Christianity, the Word of God is Jesus, the ever-existing Son of God who united himself to humanity without losing his divinity. He, being God, is the primary revelation of God. The Christian book, the Bible, is secondary. God became man so that man could ascend to God.

If God is not Logos but "Will," as most Muslim thinkers hold Allah to be, it means that, for them, Logos places a "limit" on Allah. He cannot do everything because he cannot do both evil and good. He cannot do contradictories.
-Father James Schall on Benedict XVI's Regensburg Address
-Posted by: adobe at October 22, 2006 10:09 PM

The Christian concept of God being Almighty and All-Powerful is that God can do anything worth doing. God can do anything that is in accordance with His character as a good, loving and merciful Creator. He limits Himself. He created man with freedom to do good or evil so that men could freely do good without compulsion. He could force us all to do good—but if we have no choice in the matter, we have no more virtue than a rock or a tree. Who praises a rock for behaving like a rock? What else is it supposed to do?

I apologize for not having the library of encyclicals or the patience for exploring the required circularity of reconciling

"Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium" had this to say about Muslims: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" (LG 16)."

with

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I can only hope they meant that Muslims are afforded the usual pathway, and perhaps that being "monotheists", once their false tenets are exposed and corrected, would present fertile fields for the gospel.

Because if it means what it plainly says, I wouldn't be quoting that to defend the Catholic position. I would be pretending it wasn't there.

Thanks adobe for those quotes; however, they only make me more confused, not less, as to why the Catholic Church (and the other two Branches of Christianity) do not simply anathematize Islam as a heresy.

Of course, as one of your quotes explained, there was a time when heresies were in a twilight stage of definition -- but that's par for the course: the early Church was embroiled in figuring out how and why a heresy is a heresy, and this was part and parcel with the ongoing crystallization -- through many heated and searching debates and church councils -- of what Christian orthodoxy means. This amazingly fertile and contentious process lasted for a good five centuries -- the first five centuries after Christ. By the time Mohammed came along in the 7th century, the Church (still more or less single) had largely worked out its definition of what orthodoxy is and what heresy is (though of course many additional challenges from new heresies and heterodoxies would arise throughout the Middle Ages in centuries to come, coming to a critical head with the Protestant Reformation a millennium later).

I think one major reason why Christians have avoided clearly branding Islam as a Judaeo-Christian heresy is the mistaken notion that Islam's theologoumena somehow partakes of an exotic, foreign, "oriental" world; Mohammed and the ragtag Arabs who formed the nucleus of Islam may have been non-Occidental orientals, but their belief-system was a direct act of parasitic piracy by a culture on the edges between West and East which assimilated mostly Western symbolisms and mythologies.

It's high time Christians reconfigured their conception of Islam.

Thanks adobe for those quotes; however, they only make me more confused, not less, as to why the Catholic Church (and the other two Branches of Christianity) do not simply anathematize Islam as a heresy.

remote, I enjoyed the discussion very much. Its clear to me you are sincere in you questions and are not Catholic bashing. I apologize to you if my posts seemed agressive, I sterotyped you into what would be a typical Catholic basher like Nariz, which you are not. Unfortunatly Pope/Catholic bashing seems to be the course of many that post.

I am not a theologian so I really try to stay clear of posting definitive Catholic doctrine in my own words. That is the reason I post other sources. I will say this much, you may be reading into that statement to much. I don't mean it as a knock on you, its just with any book we all try to connect with what the author means and not what we may think they mean. In a way it brings us back to what robert said in the begining. In my own case, I have initially misinterepreted many things out of the Bible and that is why I look to the Church for guidance.

I do wish you the very best on your spiritual journey and hope you will consider looking more into what the Catholic Church has to say. I would be more than happy to point you in the direction of other material.

Regarding calling islam a heresy, I recall reading somewhere that one Pope in the past called mohammad the anti-Christ, I dont remember which and if I do I will post the link. Thats a very definitive statement! Beyond that I do not want to say much more except the Catholic Church implies many things by its doctrine without outright saying it.
Peace...
adobe

Thanks adobe, there could be many things from Catholic history, such as the Pope you mentioned calling Mohammed the Anti-Christ, which I could find out from research. I just wish the Church through the Pope would issue an official Encyclical to that effect, rather than leaving the issue ragged and unofficial.

Sorry to eavesdrop on the lovefest, but does the Anti-Christ:

1)acknowledge the Creator (as LORD)
2)profess to hold the faith of Abraham
3)adore the one, merciful God

Surely not.

I think the most important thing to consider when dealing with Pat Robertson, Falwell, and all these other evangelicals is that they say these things out of fear. They fear Islam. They know that the conversion rate of Christians to Islam is the a problem for them. They know that the birthrate of Muslims is higher than Christians. They are afraid because they have something to fear from the fastest growing religion in the world. Muslims do not need to show up at your door step on Saturday morning to convert you. They have Christians showing up at the mosque to convert.
Robertson sees that Christianity itself is a fraud, Making up rules as it goes along. The only true monotheistic religions are Judaism and Islam. Muslims and Jews have the most in common. The worshipping of one God and noone else. Jews and Muslims do not need to ask who God is. They know. Christians have a choice of three Gods. God, Jesus, or some "holy spirit". If this is monotheism then what is polytheism?
Muslims go out of their way not to worship stautes, paintings, etc, while Christians pray to statues, icons, and paintings. Christians need to see to believe. They need miracles like milk coming out of statues.

Don't worry about useless comments, from senile men like these guys. They probably have their alter boys under their desks.

God is Great, Jesus was just a man.

"The only true monotheistic religions are Judaism and Islam."
Posted above by the idiot, Not4FairyTales

That statement can not be true, since Islam includes Christians as People of the Book, and affirms the validity of the Christian scriptures.

And, since it can be readily demonstrated that YHVH is not Allah, if one were true, then the other must be false. That false one would be Islam. You might want to read up on the Satanic Verses incident of Mohammad with the Quraysh; now there is a REAL example of polytheism.

Oh, and you might want to read Athanasius On the Incarnation. You clearly don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity well enough to even critique it.

By the way, not all Christians are Catholic, so Falwell and Robertson (whom I otherwise have no desire to defend) have no alter boys. Likewise, not all Christians revere iconic or artistic imagery.

Muslim, you need to be more concerned about how you are going to impress your creator than impressing us. You have no mediator to atone for you, and your Allah is said to be quite capricious about who he finds acceptible or not.

Not4FairyTales;

You said above...

"Muslims and Jews have the most in common. The worshipping of one God and noone else."

That may be true, but it is not the same God. A house devided will not stand.Also, the message is different.

"Christians have a choice of three Gods. God, Jesus, or some "holy spirit"."

God for christians is one God, the concept is of three seperate parts, but one God.

"Muslims go out of their way not to worship stautes, paintings, etc, while Christians pray to statues, icons, and paintings."

Muslum countrys are filled with images, and statues of their leaders, that is rumored to keep the angels away. Not all Christians pray as you stated. A study on this would add more along the sect's ways.

"Christians need to see to believe."

Way off base there. Faith is the belief of things NOT seen.

"God is Great, Jesus was just a man."

Jesus said HE was the son of God, the way ,the truth, and the light. I have faith for that, and did not have to see him. I believe.