Fitzgerald: How Canada can save itself

Canada is lucky- it can see what happens when unrestricted immigration and other harebrained experiments in diversity and multiculturism run amok by looking at France. Don't make the same mistakes they've made. Hopefully your new PM can drag Canada into the right direction before it gets some Ramadan riots as well.

Quebec is too far gone, Hugh, to be saved. Leftism dominates all the universities in Quebec and all the major political parties in that province. Just as France has made a pact with the islamic hordes to bolster its clout, Quebec has made the same Faustian deal.

Only the Western provinces can save Canada. Ontario is also too far to the Left to be useful in this fight. British Columbia is also a bastion of Left wingers, mostly Green party types for now, but we all know what the ideological views of the Green Party are on an issue like immigration.

Canada is in dire straights, and I'm afraid it will not be useful in the fight against islam. Can Canada be saved from itself? At this point I would have to answer No. All the political parties are left of center on the immigration issue. We have no BNP equivalent, or anything even remotely similiar. The only conservative people in the country are those in the praires perhaps, and in Alberta, two provinces that have been politically marginalized since day one. They have little representation in the House of Commons due to their small populations and therefore have no impact on Canada's political identity. That identity has always been derived from Quebec, where anti-English sentiment is written into the law books.

Think of it like this. Quebec's future leaders, not just political, but social and business, are right now in Concordia University. That does not bode well for the future. That is why whole countries, like Canada, lean to the left, irreversibly, because the Left controls the institutions of higher learning. The Right has never been able to do that. Partially because the Right in Canada is microscopic, and partially because the Right doesn't think strategically like that. Additionally, intellectualism has been the province of the Left historically. And intellectuals gravitate towards higher learning. Once they graduate, they go onto careers in law, politics, or worse, they stay in the university system as professors, where they dictate the curriculum and the political environment. That is how they play the game, and that is why they influence the political thinking of the elites of any country - from the politicans, to the judges, to the police forces, to the news media, to the journalists. Those occupations require higher learning. And the Left controls those institutions. Like Concordia University, where a future Prime Mininster of Canada is surely being educated and indoctrinated as I write this.

Can Canada be saved? Not until that dynamic is broken. How to break that viscious cycle and the death grip hold the Left has on those institutions, and subsequentely, the political leadership? I don't think it can be broken. They own it. How do you take it away from them? Nothing short of mob violence will do that.

Hugh, I believe it would be more accurate to say that most Canadians are involved in defining the country as not-America, and the ways in which they choose to do so are a part of the problem. I'm an American with duel citizenship living in Canada, and am leaving as soon as a new home can be found.

You've mentioned spreading the various websites to friends and colleagues. I do so as often as possible, but furtively. Unlike the U.S., we can be charged with hate speech for doing so too enthusiastically, and writing editorials and letters to the editor is right out of the question. The other side to that coin is the mistaken belief which again, most Canadians have, of possessing many freedoms which in fact they do not. For example, many Canadians will state nearly word for word the rights and freedoms guaranteed in the Constituion. The only problem is, it is the U.S. constitution they are quoting, and in fact last week I was informed that we here in Canada are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the perusit of happiness. I was stunned the first few times I heard this, but no more. So, if Canadians don't know what they have, that makes it harder for them to fight against what they actually face.

Next, august22 is correct in stating that the politicians are mostly liberal and supporters of the failing philosophy of multiculturalism. Couple that with the very Canadian trait of antisemitism, especially entrenched in Quebec, and it becomes even more difficult to ward off the advances made by Muslims here.There is not an easy way out.

In the city where I live, there was a large rally supporting Lebanon earlier this summer. The crowd was enormous, as this city has a large Muslim population to begin with, and then there were the imported Muslims coming accross from Dearborn. During the rally, not only was Lebanon cheered and applauded, but so was Hezbollah, openly and loudly. Our mayor not only attended but when he stated his support for the people of Lebanon, the crowd responded with their cheer of "Hezbollah will save Lebanon!" and he clapped and smiled. Repeatedly. You can imagine what effect this had on the people here. It certainly did not feel like a city where all cultures were welcomed and valued, to say the least.

It would be far more effective to rally other Canadians if those of us who realize the danger could somehow create at least an online group in order to share information, but I'm not sure how we would go about that. If any of the Canadians have an idea of how we could safely accomplish this, I am eager to hear of it.

This is an issue but it won't be asy to solve, especially for a Harper's minority government.

Harper has to play nice with Gilles Duceppe or he will pull support away from Harper's Conservatives and the minority government will collapse. Harper has to go along with it.

The other major problem, is that Quebec has the right to control its immigration, unlike the rest of Canada who is at the whim of federal immigration policy. Quebec decides whom they let it and whom they do not.

The prevailing attitude in Quebec isn't going to change any time soon. They are pretty entrenched in their positions and do not want to hear about it from the rest of a country which they do not want to be a part of.

Mccain2008:

A little perspective please. Quebec controls its own immigration because the federal government has a model law that allows any province to take over immigration. So far only Quebec has exercised that ability. Ontario toyed with the idea but has since changed its mind.

Libbysmom:
As someone who actually lives in Quebec, I haven't noticed antisemitism nor have I seen any rise by the pure laine Quebecers.
Hugh:
The other solutuon is for Quebec to subtly choose its immigrants from the Franchophonie. For example, Quebec should welcome the Lebanese and Syrian Christians as well as those Moslems who are viscerally opposed to shar'ia and the other components of jihad.

xavier

B.C. newspaper columnist Doug Collins warned everyone back in the 70's and 80's that this was going to happen. He'd be in jail now for hate crimes for the columns he wrote back then. Liberals and NDPers called him a bigoted nutcase and eventually shut him out of a job. They couldn't handle the truth. He was politically incorrect and right to the point. He was for Quebec to seperate, for integration and English competency tests for immigrants after a certain period of time, high tuition fees for foreign students, limited immigration, against changing Canadian laws to appease minorities ("if you don't like the way our country is then go the hell back to the beautiful country you came from" was one of his favourite sayings). He stood up for war veterans. He took a stand against the Loony Left and for the most part he did it alone. He was damn proud of being Canadian and didn't want the left and immigrants changing his country.

I moved out of Canada back in the 80's because I couldn't stand it then. When I saw that the discussion about Western Canada seperating wasn't serious I got the hell out. The Liberals were in power too long (besides the blips on the screen of Joe Who and Myron Baloney which were just as bad)and Canada has been destroyed by Trudeau and Chretien. The best thing that might have happened was Quebec seperating, but Levesque failed. The chance to get rid of the Francophones and tax dollar drain on the nation was gone and the West continued to send tax dollars to subsidize Quebec employment projects while nothing was done for the West.

My parents say I wouldn't recognize Canada now and my friends ask me why I never go back. I'd rather keep the memories of my younger years intact when it was still a great country and not destroy that with new memories of what it has become.

As a Canadian who lives in Western Canada I can tell you with great certainty that Canada will be finished in the near future.

The ideas which exist here, especially in the extremist left province of British Columbia will be our undoing. We last night had Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Vancouver to promote a new environmental policy. Outside, there were many protesters upset about two things. One was Canada's closer relations with China, the other was the involvement in Afghanistan. Personally I do have a problem with how the world is closer to China, so we can all have cheaper manufactured goods, but the real screams were for what our media here calls the Harper/Bush agenda.

Our media has and always will be very socialist in nature. It follows a political correct profile, which in my opinion is nothing but institutionalized censorship. We after all model our society after the British, and we can see how well that's going.

Anyhow back to the Harper/Bush agenda, this is what the media has been pounding down Canadians throats ever since Stephen Harper was elected to office earlier this year. Canadians have been fighting in Afghanistan since day one alongside with the U.S., British, Aussies and whoever else is there. Early in the conflict the Pentagon released a report card of sorts and announced the Canadians had the most kills and were obviously great sharpshooters. This revelation of course upset our Liberal government at the time as they don't like to admit these things(Look into Medak Pocket incident for another example). What has happened since, was the U.S. needed to remove many of its troops to re-allocate to Iraq, as a result they signed an agreement with the outgoing LIBERAL government to take over combat operations in the south of Afghanistan. Stephen Harpers's Conservative government inherited this, but everyone in Canada is blaming him for this now, it's truly amazing to watch the media spin this little circus, and watch the sheep scream BAAAA!

Furthermore, I try very hard to get as many people as I know to read articles on this site, to go and read history and inform themselves on these matters regarding Islam, I have to say with a few exceptions I've failed. I was called a fanatic by my sister the other day, she is a high school teacher, you think she would like to read articles and history books to see for herself, but no. I shouldn't be surprised she is a result of the constant socialist bombardment we here have been exposed to for the past 3-4 decades. This socialist way of thinking which people here hold close to their hearts is the real menace to our future. It ties right into an article on this site last week, "historical amnesia", this is the only type of history taught up here and I feel like I'm screaming in outer space.

My brother on the other hand is well aware of our problems and we both agree the flash point in Canada will be in Montreal. It is home to the largest Jewish community in Canada, and to the largest Muslim community as well. I do find other things curious here, approximately two years ago we had Synagogues vandalized in Montreal, an arrest was made and nothing was said about the suspect. It turns out he was a Muslim youth, during the election campaign in Canada last year there was an anti-terror raid on a Montreal mosque
where a Policeman was stabbed and the assailant was shot dead by police. No mention of this was on the news, all that was shown was a parade two weeks after the fact of the Muslim community claiming the Montreal Police were racist. And finally our most famous killer Marc Lapine the man who shot 21 women dead in the Politechnique School just over a decade ago was actually an Algerian Muslim immigrant, but here in Canada we would rather blame a crazy Frenchman than shed light on a culture of death.

We are in deep trouble here, and as I've stated we will not see it coming, because we don't want to see it.

Niv

For anyone who would like to know, I finished reading "The truth about Muhammad" a few days ago.
It is a very easy read, and as usual is extremely informative. I highly recommend it to everyone who visits this site.

Even with all of the articles and revelations that seem to come from this site, I still learned many things I never knew before from this book.

This book sheds light on a figure that has been cryptically hidden from view, and I think anyone with an open mind that reads this book will be disturbed and fascinated at the same time.

Buy it, read it, and pass it on to as many people who are willing to open their eyes. I have a few people asking to borrow it, hopefully I can expand on that.

Niv

Why is it that where the French tread, trouble usually follows?

I wish the US would start to look at situations like this. We already have Dearbornistan in MI. They are pro-hezballah. They even take to the streets. We give these idiots the freedom of religion and they are totally anti-american, even the new converts. Oh that's right, they are now called reverts. Or perverts. I only know of one congressman that calls it like it is. John Shadegg of AZ has a comercial talking about islamic terrorism. I am seeing a real influx of muslims in my apt complex. One has two women living with him. His legal wife and his second islamic wife? Who knows. I will bet wife number two is on welfare.

I still say watch out muslims if another attack happens on our soil. It might be time to play cowboys and muslims.

Good piece Hugh.

Canada is getting some jolts that are registering slightly--the cartoon crisis, the sharia scares (rejected both in Ontario and Quebec), the unforgettably ungrateful Muslim Lebanese "rescuegees" (sent to us courtesy of Hizballah's latest production), the news from Afghanistan, the reaction to the Pope's quotation, etc. But we need to increase the spread of our anti-jihad, anti-sharia message, to be sure.

Maronites and Copts who have settled in Montreal must be quite upset at having fled Muslims, only to fine themselves in a city where the population is completely unaware of the threat, and government policy, which makes no distinction between creeds that are alien, and creeds that are both alien and hostile, actually favors French-speaking Muslims from North Africa or elsewhere (Tariq Ramadan would be welcome), over, say, Greek or Italian immigrants who might, just might, swell the ranks of the English-speaking.

But now there is something new. It is what may be called the Dantec Factor. I name it thus after the French writer Maurice Dantec, who has left France for Canada in order to escape from the Islamic presence and problems. And many young French men and women are now seeking to leave France, for the very same reason. Some of them will end up in Quebec. And they will, speaking perfect French, have the chance to warn the French-speaking denizens of Quebec as to what Islam is all about, what large numbers of Muslims must necessarily mean for the well-being, the stability of the legal and political institutions, and the physical security, of all Infidels. The linguistic divide is as nothing, shouldbe seen as nothing, compared to the abyss that divides Believer from Infidel.

Perhaps Dantec and others who arrive, with the same ability to articulate the problem, will find an audience beyond those who might attend a signing at the Gallimard bookshop on St.-Laurent. Not everyone is quite so happy with Islam. Why, despite my needling here, I suspect that even Eric Ormsby, he of the irwinesque high-aesthetic line in Islam Appreciation (Mutanabbi! Night and the Desert! Al-Ghazali!), may inwardly be changing, just a bit, his own view of Islam.

A possibility.

As a proud canadian I find that this strikes very close to home. I live in Toronto Ontario and work in the security industry. I have seen the muslim presence increase by a large amount and now it's starting to terrify me.

I have to check unsafe corridors(construction) during prayer times to make sure some muslim idiot isn't praying in an area that's out of the way. Just the other week I stopped a woman and her brood of children going into a construction area that was clearly marked (in english at least). When I told her she had to leave it was' "please, need to pray do you have a prayer room?"

Another thing to note since there's a strong muslim prescence in the security industry, and with every terror alert people scream for more security. Whose side are these security guards on?

sorry for rambling a bit.

Hugh:

Nice post, you should be writing for the National Post (hint).

Re: "It is what may be called the Dantec Factor"

Last year, the CBC did run a good documentary on French Jews who were leaving France for Canada (Montreal in particular) to escape the increasing anti-semitism.

Thank you for this post. It really has given me yet another jolt. I have been planning to emigrate to Canada (Quebec to be precise) to escape what is going on here in Europe. But now having read what is going on over there, I guess I will have to rule Canada out as well. My sister has just been granted her Canadian permanent residence. Guess she's also gonna be in for a nasty shock when she arrives there. How absolutely depressing that there doesn't seem to be a place in this world where we can escape Islamic immigration (apart from the US which is nigh on impossible to get into). I was actually looking at the Sahara desert as an option, but then I suddenly remembered, it's in the heart of the Islamic world.

Some of the comments on this article are completely over the top. Canada isn't going to turn into some sort of islamonutter fantasy land. There are too many ASIANS who know what islam is about to let it happen. remember that there is a huge number of Sikhs, Tamils, Hindus, and others immigrating to Canada yearly. Places like Toronto, Calgary and BC in its entirety will remain ever free. just because lebanese and others showed up in toronto's downtown on a sunday doesn't really mean much. annual sikh, chinese, etc... celebrations have tens of thousands show up in vancouver and other canadian cities. just because canada isn't going to stay euro-majority in some of its major cities doesn't mean it's going to islamicize. at some point quebecers will wake up as well.

What you tell here about Quebec and Canada in general makes me think about Catalonia and Spain.
Our north-eastern region (capital Barcelona) has fallen under the control of political correctness, on the one hand, and Catalonian regional nationalism on the other hand. Actually Quebec´s example inspires a lot of silly policies our regional nationalists in the Basque Country and Catalonia have been implementing in the last 25 years.

One of these policies deals with immigration. Not having been granted immigration competences, the regional Government in Catalonia has not been able to carry out a policy on the matter with the consistency of Quebec. However, nationalist politicians have found the way to encourage immigration in Catalonia from non-Spanish speaking countries, in the belief they will be more prone to learn Catalan instead of Spanish. The result is that you will find in, both, absolute and relative terms, more Muslim immigration in Catalonia than in the rest of Spain. That is a situation that only now some people -certainly not the media or the mainstream opinion leaders- are starting to realize (with the backside effect that the newcommers haven´t shown more interest in learning
Catalan than other people, but this is a different story altogether...).

Well, either the Catalonian (and Basque) public change their minds and realize what is really important and what is not, or, perhaps more and more people from the rest of Spain will start demanding thay they secede in order to get rid of their PC correctness, Muslim population and financial burden on the national Treasure...

Good post, Hugh. I agree fullheartedly that Irshad Manji is just into antics; and represents the suicidal tendencies in the modern, liberal West. But I won't write off Canada. I think that in their hearts of hearts, most Canadians know that the USA accepted Canada as the "not America" long ago (heck, even the best neighbor is still a "them", not an "us"); and if the Canadians have to fight for their country, it won't be against Americans, but with American help. How many of us down here are yelling "54-40 or Fight" nowadays, for crying out loud? We may be dumb, but I think we did learn a lesson or two at Fort Erie.

Besides, if Canadians really do think that the wording of OUR Yankee Declaration of Independence and Constitution can somehow be compatible with being "not America", I foresee lots and lots of trouble for a PeeCee Canadian elite in the not-too-distant future. No people can be pushed too far. Muslims remain a minority in Canada, and if they alienate too many of their non-Muslim countrymen (which is what they seem Jahanum-bent on doing), even the most placid urban Ontarian or Maritimer will probably find reserves of ferocity that will astound the world and shock the Stetson hat off the most Texas-Wannabe Albertan. It wasn't too long ago that New York City was a "safe bet" for liberal PeeCee attitudes, too.

Also, does Catholic Quebec really love the Maghrabis? Something tells me that there are probably plenty of "Canadiens" who find hostile, Arabic-speaking Algerian Muslims a little too much, too.

Finally, I think that if Canadian patriots look around and organize, they'll find that they have a lot more going for them than anyone might think.

Remaining a "good lines through wheatfields and lakes make good neighbors" American,

Kepha

There's so much ammo here in Canada on this subject that it is no laughing matter. Alberta is considered by everybody in Canada as our Texas. Albertans are viewed as totally right wing cowboys who are closer to being American than Canadian.

This past summer I was in Calgary Alta. with my family and read in the local newspaper, that the largest mosque in North America is going to be built there. This mosque is going to be approximately 48,000 square feet. I don't know about you, but if they're building the biggest mosque in North America in Alberta, we're done.

Several months ago I was with a friend of mine and our kids at a family fun centre known as Crash Crawleys. I was taken aback immediately when I realized the other 200 or so people in this location were all Muslim. Burqad women were praying in corners all over the place, and the girls playing there would not sit near my sons when riding on the train in this place. I was nothing short of disturbed to see that in my neighborhood there were this many immigrant Muslims. My father told me that several years ago an older Muslim man approached him at a local park and said to him, "We are going to take you over one day" and walked away. My father being a happy extrovert always looking to say "hi" was stunned, and said to me that his hairs stood on edge when the man said that to him.

In a public forum in Vancouver during this last election, reporters went around the room and asked people what their concerns were. The second or third guy asked was a Muslim who said, "I am concerned about the rise of Islamophobia in Canada". The reporter nor anyone else there had the courage to even ask him why? These are serious symptoms in our society that will not get dealt with here until we mature as a nation. Our only real hope is that some idiot imam calls hockey unIslamic, there would be no place for anyone to hide here if that was said. It would be a blood letting of Islamic proportion.

Anyhow this is what's happening to Canada, and yet no one here seems to get it. The more I talk about the angrier I get.

Niv

"Our only real hope is that some idiot imam calls hockey unIslamic, there would be no place for anyone to hide here if that was said."

Niv, you got me laughing with that one...but then I had to admit that you are correct. That type of negative publicity would go a long way in raising public awareness.

Jalandhar, you must view these postings to mean that something is about to happen over night. That couldn't be further from the truth, however you are extremely naive if you believe that Islamic influence has not already taken hold in many centers in Canada.

There is a large enough group of Muslims here to come to within a hair of influencing the imposition of sharia law in Ontario. That was stopped at the last minute when somebody had a moment of clarity. However the day that sharia was shot down in Ontario, B.C. Attorney General Wallace Opal (A Sikh)stated that he would welcome sharia law in British Columbia.

These kinds of statements and events do not happen on there own. There is an ever growing Muslim community in Canada, and there are large groups in Surrey B.C., and Coquitlam, B.C. in the west. There is obviously a huge community in Calgary and there are more coming.

Do not get rapped up in the they'll move here and fit in because we are great mentality. That is what takes away from our awareness on this matter.
Do not make the mistake by tying this to money or wealth either, people still do not get that France a modern country is basically in an undeclared civil war right now. These things can and will happen in Canada if we think we are immune and take no precautions as a result of our complacency.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml

Please read this link it is regarding the current situation in France.

Niv

Hugh,
Bang on about the US/Canada and Australia/NZ comparison. I'm a Kiwi living in Australia and I often look at the policies of Helen Clark and her Labour buddies with a sense of disbelief and also outrage, especially recently with her comments re Israel and Hizbollah. But of course, comments in favour of the Jews may have upset all those Arab/ME countries who buy our lamb and we couldn't have that now, could we?
I also lived on Vancouver Island for a couple of years in the early 1990s and even then the issue of French-speaking Quebecois feeling marooned in a sea of us nasty Anglophones was a live one. (In fact, I had never heard the word Anglophone until I reached Canada). Their policy of encouraging Francophones to settle in Quebec no matter what their cultural baggage may preserve French as a language of North America but it will change Eastern Canada in ways that the political class may not even realise.
For all of you looking to exit pre-Islamic Europe, COME HERE! Australians tired of the ongoing antics of newly-arrived Muslim immigrants
would welcome you with open arms. In warning, though, you'll have to cope with lousy beer, a national sport that only one other country in the world plays (footy), and absolutely everyone making fun of you for about the first 5-10 years (though I've been told that Australians tease as a sign of affection).
On the plus side, the beaches are fantastic, the economy is booming, especially in Western Australia, the people are welcoming and there's a chap as PM who "gets it". What more could you want?

Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi!
(You'll understand that when you get here)

PS. I love Australia but when rugby season starts, go the All Blacks!

Xavier:

Quebec jumped at the opportunity to control its immigration because of its xenophobic attitudes towards its culture and francophonie attitudes.

Why haven't other provinces tried this? Because none are as hell bent on a specific culture within the province. Maybe that is a bad thing too.

Have the English road signs been put back up after they were torn down?

Quote :"THE PROBLEM IS FRENCH IS A SACRED COW INCANADA ALONG WITH QUEERBECK AND THE FROGS GET WHAT THEY WANT AND THE HELL WITH THE REST OF CANADA THE PROBLEM IS QUEBEC CONTROLS ALMOST 1/3 OF THE SEATS INTHE HOUSE OF COMMANS AND ALL THE MAJOR POLTICAL PARTY KISS QUECK AND THE FROS BUTS IN THE HOPE OF TAKING ALL THOSE SEATS AWAY FROM THE BLOCK QUEBCKWA THAT CURENTLY HOLD AND WITH THOSES SEATS THE LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA WITH THE OTHER 1/3 THAT THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO HOLDS MEANS THEY CANFORM A GOVERMENT AND THE HELL WITH THE REST OF CANADA AND AS IMAGRANTS MSTLY SEEM TO SEATAL IN QU. AND ONT. AND VTE OR THE LIBREAL PARTY OF CANADA THE RATHER CORUPT LIBERALS TEND TO GO FOR OPEN IMAGATION AND THEY DONT SEEM TO CARE WERE THE NEW CANADIANS COME FROM ITS ONE OF THE REASONS I MOVED TO THE USA

Posted by: islamakapigeaters"

Dear Pig-Boy,
As a Canadian I must say I'm glad you chose to move to the U.S. We don't need you here. (Not that they need you any more, poor devils).

Canada is not dominated by the Left. If it was, the NDP would be governing it. In reality, they never have and never will be. If fact, they as a party recently lost my support forever because of their blindly stupid kneejerk PC anti-Israel, anti-U.S., pro-Islamist stance. This country has far more common sense, from shore to shore (INCLUDING Quebec), than a lot of you commenters - many of you being disaffected right-wingers who left in a snit because Canada just wasn't right-wing enough for you - are willing to give us credit for.

Canada’s immigration is out of control. Its blind acceptance of absolute multiculturalism has threatened its survival. Thus, corruption in Canada is rampant, and the Islamists have a network of higher-ups (judges, lawyers, government department heads) whose sole purpose is to Islamize Canada. Muslims buy their way into Canada with ease, with citizenship and everything. When you have immigrants at the rate of 1% of the population per year, you have a serious problem.

Canadians should be proud of our tradition of tolerance and respect. It is the hallmark of a free, civilized society, and shouldn't be counted out as a defense against Islam. There is no question that Islam is a threat, but for Canadians to respond to hate and violence with hate and violence just lowers us to their level. There has to be another way, otherwise the difference between "us" and "them" will just be a matter of labels and not substance.

Radical muslims aren't likely to try and wage "war" here in Canada. If they did they'd find their welcome cut short in a hurry. Unlike in France where the head cheese eater denies the problem even though the police chief pretty much summed it up. The muslim threat in Canada is overblown provided that people wake up and realize that there are terrorists in our midst intent on manipulating our freedoms to suit their nefarious designs. Canadians have made some progress in electing conservatives federally. Oh and in BC, even though the ruling party is called the Liberal Party, they are pretty much using the name only. In fact, the BC delegation was booed at a Liberal party confab a year or two back. The more you let someone or some community treat you as a doormat, the more they will do so if they are of that bent. People who have left Canada for the US would find that the last year has been a breath of fresh air if they were to come back.

... intellectualism has been the province of the Left historically. And intellectuals gravitate towards higher learning...

My my, how the concept of what an intellectual comprises has deteriorated. And the only thing higher about today's universites is how stoned the professors are.

To succumb to Marxism is to adopt a very agressive form of Fictive Reality based on the lust for appropriation of OPM (aka "other people's money," i.e., something for nothing), an ideal that naturally aligns with Islamic ideals as set forth in their scriptural texts.

Moslems worship in Ramadan the Battle of Badr, a blood letting caused by the Naklah caravan robbery that involed one count of felony murder two felony kidnapping for ransom counts. Worship that.

To turn around an inculcate naive 19 yr old university students with such doggerel is beyond perverse, it is extremely dangerous to our long-term well being.

I have to disagree with some of the comments here.

The best defense a country can have against Islam is a strong national identity.

If ever a Muslim is stupid enough to burn the Fleur de lys (the Quebec flag) in a public setting, you'll have anti-muslim riots in Quebec. People will start demanding strong anti-islamic laws. So long as Muslim's don't challenge Quebecois culture, Quebeckers will carry on as if everything's alright. The moment they do, the resistance in this province will be much more vocal than in the rest of Canada.

It's not by accident that out of all Canadian's, Quebeckers are the most suspicious of Muslims, and by a large margin. While Ontario deliberated on the possibility of implementing islamic law, Quebec explicitly rejected shariah out of hand, saying it infringed on the right's of women. That's a bold statement by a public official, the kind you won't usually hear in the rest of the Western world.

Yes, Quebec has one of the dumbest immigration policies in the world. However, because of our extremely potent nationalist tendencies, we remain one of the safest places in the world against Islam. We certainly have a problem, but the cultural identity of this province provides the kind of protection that is lacking in countries that have become ashamed of their history.

Canada, as a whole, will survive. As other's mentioned, we have many immigrants from countries that have been the victim of islamic aggression. They will not take kindly to Islamic intolerance, even if our liberal academics keep asking that we pretend it doesn't exist.

Things might get worst before they get better, but ultimately, we're going to win against these people.

My my, how the concept of what an intellectual comprises has deteriorated. And the only thing higher about today's universites is how stoned the professors are.

Ain't that the truth. I predict a very painful drop to earth for those who inhabit the walls of Higher Learning.

Conservatives in Canada are conservatives in name only. No one is talking about the islamict threat in political circles in Canada.

Case in point. In the US, there is the United American Coalition, which is a staunch anti-islamic organization. They tried to start an affiliate group in Canada but failed for lack of support. What does that tell you about Canada vis-a-vis the islamic threat?

Traditionally, Canada has had the NDP, a far left-wing party, the Liberals, a middle left-wing party, and the Progressive Conservatives, a an economically conservative party, but still socially liberal. Canada has no socially conservative party. None. It did have the Reform Party, but that never did well east of Alberta. The new Conservative Party led by Harper is just another middle of the road, socially liberal political party. Like Sweden, there are NO right wing parties in Canada. Canada and Sweden are very similiar.

Canada can not be saved without the Right coming to power. But Ontario and Quebec, the political base of Canada, is fundamentally wed to multicultural policies and the immigrant vote. That is why Ottawa has had such an open immigration policy for 30 years. Immigrants vote liberal. And all the old ethnic neighorhoods vote liberal. That is how the islamic threat gets into the country. They ride in on that.

The Left controls Canada. Destroy the Left and you save the country from islam. But how do you destroy the Left?

But Ontario and Quebec, the political base of Canada, is fundamentally wed to multicultural policies and the immigrant vote.

You overstate Quebec's ties to multiculturalism. Quebec is tolerant - up to a point. It will not tolerate disrespect to Quebec, however.

I've heard about...
Muslims in Britain preaching against Britain.
Muslims in America preaching against America.
Muslims in Calgary preaching against Canada.

I've yet to hear about Muslims in Quebec preaching against Quebec. If it happens, the response will be extremely negative, I assure you.

Muslims don't preach hatred for provinces, they preach hatred for nations and hatred for civilization. As long as those muslims are denouncing Canada or the West in general, in Montreal, the Québécois have no issue with them, and may in fact, smile.

This is from a Western raised Muslim (not me) who blatantly rejects loyalty to Canada. Canada Laws do not comply with the Quran as he so deceptively proclaims (e.g., Quran does not permit you to criticize Muhammad, or be an atheist):
_________
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=596612#596612

First of all I am not anti-Canada (though I do believe Canada must withdraw all of her troops from Afghanistan). Canada (the government, the society, etc.,) means nothing to me. I love the land of Canada which is the creation of Allah, and He has created her natural resources for our disposal, Subhan Allah wa bihamdihi! I neither salute the flag, nor stand for the national anthem, or do any other "patriotic" rituals. My loyalty and obedience is to Allah Ta'ala. Yes, I am a law abiding citizen, and I follow all of Canada's laws, so long as those laws do not conflict with the laws which Allah Ta'ala Himself has enjoined upon us. To me nationalism is quite overrated and really serves no practical purpose. Nationalism can even be detrimental. If a country invades another or is being aggressive, despite the fact that people know it is wrong from a moral perspective, our of "nationalism" and "patriotic" feeling they will still stand by their country and put up signs such as "We Support the Troops" etc., despite the fact that those very troops are slaughtering and pillaging innocent people. Nationalism (and not religion!) has been the major cause of strife and violence throughout the world and throughout history.

Regarding your second question (sorry for not answering it earlier) ,yes I am quite frank and open about all of my beliefs to anyone who enquires about them.

by Talha777

This is why Muslims are simply unacceptable to our countries. Why are we importing rebels? They want the land of our countries for their satanic god. Let them rot in ignorance and strife in their land of origin (the desert lands of Saudi Arabia, Syria, West Bank, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, and all those other Arabic speaking disgraces to humanity.)

Dear Pig-Boy,
As a Canadian I must say I'm glad you chose to move to the U.S. We don't need you here. (Not that they need you any more, poor devils).
i get along fine with yankees

as a candian did you ever put on the uniform as i did or did you join greenthief instead ???
its leftwing idiots like you we do not need in canada you write like one of thr fat cat ndper kiss the goverments ass from ont.
and as a vet and a western canadian i don;t like the way ont and qubeck get the gravy while both westen and eastern canada get f--ed because the liberal party of canada sucks up to ont. and qubeck just because of the fact all they need to do at one time was carry the seats in thouse two provinces and pick up a handfull more to form the goverment and it is no acident that the 12 new dde ships were built in qubeck and westen ship yards even though they gave a lower bid were shut out because the goverment of the day used they to buy votes in qebeck and ont or that most of the new muslim imagrants go to enclaves in vanvouver, toronto, or qubeck city
and for the most part these new imagrants tend to vote liberal so the former liberal goverment has tended to suport opend door imagration and most comes from the east and prodomtly muslim areas all because of who they will vote for

Canada is not dominated by the Left. If it was, the NDP would be governing it. In reality, they never have and never will be.
not the far left ie parlor pink commies but the middle left like the liberal paery

If fact, they as a party recently lost my support forever because of their blindly stupid kneejerk PC anti-Israel, anti-U.S., pro-Islamist stance.
so you admite to being a ex ndper hmm that explains your coments

This country has far more common sense, from shore to shore (INCLUDING Quebec), than a lot of you commenters - many of you being disaffected right-wingers who left in a snit because Canada just wasn't right-wing enough for you

LOLROFPMP I LEFT FOR THE LOVE OF A WOMAN MY WIFE NOW FOR OVER 25 YEARS NOT BECUSE AS YOU CLAIM I WAS A DISINFECTED RIGHTWINGER BULL
BTW IT WAS THE LIBERALS WHO PASSED THE GAY MARRIGE BILL SO WHEN ARE you and your bf getting hitched
are willing to give us credit for.
cash only i know better than to give any one from ont credit or any slav-e

The scathing criticism voiced against the Left in this and other Jihadwatch pages is quite justified in light of the present position of the Left in relation to Islam, but I'd venture to guess that a time is coming, and its beginnings may already be here, that the Left is going to wake up and change its tune. I've had a lot of sympathy for certain aspects of left-of-center thought most of my life, although not on the basis of socialism and other egalitarianist and utopian notions traditionally espoused by the Left, but on the basis of Catholic social teaching, some of which - though clearly not all - finds common ground at times with the left on some of the issues that the Left traditionally favours in areas such as the correct principles for the distribution of wealth and resources in society, environmental stewardship, and the proper conduct of international relations. So I rise to a cautious defence of the Left in the context of this discussion, because in the past, the Left, though slow to get on board, did eventually enter the fight against Naziizm with a vengeance and I think that this situation may be turn out similarly, which would be all to the good.

One has to expect that a force such as the political left is, initially, going to champion, at some level, those who are seen as underdogs, in this case, third world Muslims who, being poor and backward, it will obligingly assume to be oppressed and victimized. Given its ideological blinders, its not going to be swift to recognize the truth about how the religious doctrines of Islam and the conditioning effects these have had on Islamic societies over the ages, have provided the roots of this poverty. Such connections are often still made by left-wing thinkers and historians to explain the rise of Naziism in Germany (the Germans being the impoverished losers of World War I and harbouring many grievances were, inevitably, so they will say, drawn to Naziism). I would not rule out the possibility however, that this may not be the only thing the left will say about the topic, or its final word on Islamic immigration or aggression.

With the exception of Marxist revolutionaries and others on its extreme margins, the left has usually been pacifist, and this is true in Canada as well, but this did not prevent one of the historic leaders of Canada's farthest left mainstream party, T.C. Douglas, from being one of the first politicians in Canada, if not THE first, to warn against the dangers of Nazi aggression and to call on Canadians to prepare for war, after he witnessed the Nuremburg rally and saw for himself the power of the Nazi movement over the imagination of the German people. And we know that the left, including Douglas' party - the CCF, later the NDP - did eventually shed its pacifist leanings to embrace more pragmatic positions and threw itself into support for the war effort against Germany and the other Axis powers.

I have read in other pages of this forum, and elsewhere, that in Europe the Left is beginning to show signs of reconsidering its sponsorship of Islamic immigration, of multiculturalism, and of endless tolerance of Islamic demands. This change may take root and grow apace as more and more leftists begin to see the inevitable damage that Islam will inflict on civil liberties, women's rights, secularism, and other concrete advancements that the left regards as its historic achievements. I personally know some left of center people who detest Islam and feel very much as I do about the matter of Islamic violence and its threat to the West. I would not go so far as to confidently predict that the parting of the ways between Islam and the left will be the inevitable outcome, but I think there's reason to hope that this, or at least a great reduction of Islam's influence with the Left, is coming and its worth continuing to engage them and challenge their prevailing misguided biases to try to encourage this. They may eventually be persuaded to abandon their current stupidity and join the cause.

That said, the observations made by Hugh, and others who've posted on this page, that Canada's fight against Jihad is tremendously damaged and compromised by multiculturalism and PC jingoism is correct, and those in Canada who are aware of the issue have got to start educating others, right, left and center.

niv
Early in the conflict the Pentagon released a report card of sorts and announced the Canadians had the most kills and were obviously great sharpshooters
its somthing that is taght and stresed in basic and the training is diferent from the usa
and if you look at canadas war record you would learn they have one hell of one sword jono and gold beaches tell part of the tale the italion campaun and the battle of ortona that the seaforth highlanders of c remeber every crhistmass with the ortona dinner flanders feild in ww1 the battles in korea under the liberal misrule of the trudue and cretian goverments
the armed forces went from over 120000 men in 69 to abou 60000 today and from a mediam sized navy with a aircraft carrier and a 30 ship navy to were we have 4 subs undergoing refit and 12 dde's
the liberal govermets sucked up to ont and queck
and used the defence buget like a piggy bank they could rob for social prorams that bot them votes among the imagrant comunitys and qubrck priore to the block taking all the seats

About those Canadian sharpshooters in Afghanistan. Perfect example. A Canadian marksman, a sniper, Cpl. Rob Furlong in 2002 made a world record long distance kill in that country killing a Taliban fighter from a distance of 2430 meters. In the US forces, he would have got a medal. In fact, the US nominated them for a bronze star. Not just for that feat, but for being by far the most effective small combat unit in the area killing Taliban and al-qaeda nests and protecting US troops from fire.

This is what Macleans had to say:

It should have been a moment of pride for the Canadian army. Five of its most talented snipers -- men trained to kill without remorse, then turn around and kill again -- did exactly that. They destroyed al-Qaeda firing positions, saved American lives and tallied a body count unmatched by any Canadian soldier of their generation. U.S. commanders who served alongside the snipers nominated all five for the coveted Bronze Star medal. "Thank God the Canadians were there," is how one American soldier put it.

The liberal left-wing Canadian government was not so thankful.

This military world record, became something actually embarrassing to the government.

Rather than being feted by the military, him, and his squad, were brushed aside, smeared, and abandoned by the Canadian Armed Forces. Why? Because in Canada, there can be no pride taken in killing a muslim, Taliban or not. Indeed, it was considered a shameful act. How could they promote these men? They couldn't. So what they did instead was to prosecute one of them for the crime of desecreting an enemy corpse, and all four members of this squad left the military disillusioned.

That is 21st century Canada.

If only Mordecai Richler was still alive to comment on the wisdom of Quebec's attempts to preserve its French character by accepting Francophones from anywhere in the world.

Hugh's piece overlooks that a lot of those immigrant Francophones also incudes Sephardic Jews who fled persecution in Algeria, Morocco and Libya in the 1950s, including former federal cabinet minister Jaques Sada, and Haitians, like our current governor general. (In the 1970s, Montreal also became home to a fair number of Ethiopian falasha Jews, who, so far as I know, didn't speak French.)

Otherwise, I suspect the average Quebecois, the large majority of whom are still "pure laine" descendents of the original 200 families who left France 400 years ago, is more likely to be as xenophoebic as former "P-Quist" premier Jacques "Money-and-the-Ethnic-Vote" Parrizeau than they are to embrace Muslims who just happen because of colonialism, to be able to communicate in a form of French that is probably very different from francais Quebecois.

Yes, I might have extended the list to include other Francophone immigrants who may find the Islamic presence unsettling, but such a list, to be inclusive, should also contain not only French-speaking Jews from North Africa, and Catholic Haitians, but all sorts and conditions of non-Muslim immigrants, whether they speak French or not.

It is the wilful blindness of the P.Q. itself -- not minding either its P's or its Q's -- and of others in political life in Quebec -- that astonishes. They are causing large present and even larger future problems for themselvs. They are masters of their own immigration policy. But when they admit Muslims, believing that mere linguistic affinity can bridge the abyss that, in Islam, separates Believer from Infidel (and while this or that individual Muslim may choose to ignore that division or to minimize it, it is on the books, the permanent canonical texts, of Islam -- just waiting to be enforced by this or that Believer's mind whenever he choses to find the Muslim worldview more appealing or convincing -- or his children, or grandchildren, unto the nth generation, do.

As to Mordecai Richler, who knows how he, or for that matter Stephen Leacock, would have made something funny out of this unnecessary, because entirely self-inflicted, problem for the future of Quebec. And not only Quebec. While the Province has created its own immigration policy, it is all of Canada that will suffer for it -- for once in Quebec, those Muslim immigrants can self-inflicted, Not the kind of thing just to joke about with friends while standing in line at the Boucherie hebraique on St.-Laurent, as you clap your mittened hands together to keep them warm, and your exhaling breath makes elaborate designs against the air, on a cold December day.

Well said, Templar. I think what the Right doesn't get about the Left is that we're not pro- or anti-Israel, pro- or anti-Muslim, pro- or anti-US, even pro- or anti-war. We're against injustice, oppression, human rights abuses, oppression of women, killing of innocent civilians, military expansionism, etc., **regardless of who is committing those wrongs**. This is how Michael Ignatieff, a supporter of Israel, can accuse Israel of war crimes. The Left is not about taking sides, it's not about "us" versus "them." The Left values impartiality and absolutistism; wrong is wrong, whether it's committed by a foreign despot or our elected democratic leaders. I have to laugh when the Left is accused of moral relativism. It is the Right that is guilty of moral double-standards; they try to say it's OK for Israel to kill 3000 Lebanese civilians but not OK for Hezbollah to kill 300 Israeli civilians. That's just the attitude of the Jihadists in reverse. For me, that is just not good enough.

Thanks for all the comments from sensible, proud, patriotic Canadians out there. As for August22, you can take your imaginary right-wing saviour party and, as we say here in Western Canada, shove it where the sun don't shine.

There is going to be a Canada-wide protest day to get Canadian troops out of Afghanistan on Oct. 28. I am publicizing this not because I support it; in fact I strongly believe that Canada should stick with the commitment we made to the people of Afghanistan. No less than the President of Afghanistan was in Canada recently to plead for the Canadian military's continued presence in his country, making the peaceniks here look, I imagine, more than a little foolish. But apparently they've recovered, not about to let the real needs and desires of the Afghan people get in the way of a good demo.

So I will not be taking part in any of these demos, and neither will, I predict, the vast majority of Canadians. However, I want to draw attention to some of the groups that are co-sponsoring this event, printed in fine print - very fine print - at the bottom of the posters.
Make of this what you will:

Canadian Islamic Congress
Canadian Arab Federation
Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association
Muslim Unity Group
Al-Hidaya Association of Montreal
The Muslim Services, Toronto
Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights, McMaster
Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid
Palestine Community Centre of BC

And of course many of the other usual suspects, including the erstwhile Communist Party of Canada.

Ugh. I go to SFU in BC. Everybody is ridiculously ignorant and left-wing. The head-in-the-sand technique seems rampant. The school paper didn't even mention the Pope Benedict thing, instead they printed an article on "Islamaphobia in Spain". Of course there's racism in Spain, they've been occupied for 800 years you idiots! Lord, it's definately gonna be a swim up a waterfall to educate these people...

Hugh:

Richler wasn't just a great novelist with a rare wit. He had a very incisive mind and wrote great essays and non-fiction books, both about Quebec and Israel.

Bigwhiteinfidel:

Doug Collins was an xenophobe who hated Jews too. So, in his case, if he was right about something, well, so is a broken analogue clock twice a day.

"rare wit..."
-- from a posting above about Mordecai Richler

And also the compiler of a very good collection of modern humor, which jostles for space on a favorite shelf along with the anthologies of Bennett Cerf, E. B. and Katherine White, Frank Muir, and one or two others whose names I forget.

His son Adam is continuing in the family business, I recall, just as one of Alan ("The Collected Bulletins of Idi Amin") Coren's children has done so in England. Or have I misremembered?

there doesn't seem to be a place in this world where we can escape Islamic immigration (apart from the US which is nigh on impossible to get into). From a post above

Yes, sadly, it is "nigh on impossible" for educated, civilized, productive, people to get into the U.S., especially if they are white. The U.S. government, and most other Western governments, are in compliance with the U.N. social engineering project to eliminate the white majority everywhere it exists and to destroy the culture, religions, and institutions created by whites. They are accomplishing their goal by flooding all Western nations with non-white, culturally incompatible, obscenely prolific immigrants. The utlimate goal is to totally eliminate the white race.

However, if you want to live in the U.S. as an illegal "immigrant" like about twenty million Mexicans do, go to Mexico on vacation and stroll across the border or wade across the Rio Grande. Thousands of Mexicans, drug traffickers, and terrorists do it every day! Anyone can get into the U.S. but if you are white and you get caught, they'll send you away. If you're Mexican or look like one, no problem.

I have a hard time understanding the logic in diluting the majority white populations of a few countries with the third world's excess people, when massive countries like China, India, Mexico, and smaller ones like Japan, Korea, Viet Nam, and Middle Eastern countries remain ethnically pure. The white race comprises about 8% of the world's population, yet the social engineers are hell-bent on our total extinction.

Sylvia:

Thanks for your response to my previous comment. I have the impression that you may be new to this forum because I can not recall seeing your name on any other thread before. It sounds like we see eye to eye about things a great deal and I'm always glad to find others in this forum with whom I share certain common perspectives and in light of that, I'd like to introduce myself a bit in order to set the stage for some discussion of a couple of things you've said here and follow this up with some policy proposals that I think the West, the Left included, needs to adopt to ensure its survival and safety.

If I read your response correctly you have identified me as a fellow leftist. My views are based more on typically conservative principles, primarily traditional Christian social teaching, rather than on the classic writings of socialist theorists and others whom the Left usually relies on, and I'm rather a bit of what's today known as a "social conservative" on some issues. Therefore, most political analysts, despite my great admiration for a number of the Left's achievements in Canada, such as universal publicly-funded health care ("medicare"), the advancement of labour rights and the implementation of enlightened social programs, as well as the emancipation of women, and the consequence resulting from all of this - namely that I've usually supported left-wing politicians at the ballot box - would probably consider me "right of center”. You can think of me as a "right-wing social democrat", if that makes sense. If it were still in existence in Canada today, and given the conclusions that I’ve arrived at over the last year or two regarding the current relationship between Islam and the bulk of present-day socialist thought, I’d probably vote without hesitation for the Progressive Conservative party, and as things stand now, with a great deal of regret I must say, I will probably end up voting for its current successor under Stephen Harper, something I hope the Left will kindly relieve me of the obligation to do by changing the unsavoury policies that are driving me in this direction, primarily those having to do with the Islamist problem and the over-the-top multiculturalism that its rooted in. In spite of my reservations though, for rhetorical purposes, I accept the "leftist" label to streamline and facilitate our discussion.

You have made the point that we on the left are impartial, condemning violence and oppression equally regardless of its source and gone on to take Israel to task for its actions in the recent war with Hezbollah. Under normal conditions of conflict, your denunciation of Israel as the greater aggressor would probably be accurate, but I point out that there are some unusual circumstances that apply to the struggle between Israel and its Arab neighbours that are generally not found in other conflicts, namely those rooted in the unusual religious underpinnings of this struggle. I obviously don't know how familiar you are with the traditions and teachings of Islam, so please bear with me if I'm telling you what you already know, but I do have to point out that the use of, and justification for, violence and oppression as instruments not only of the religious missionary activity ("dawa" as its known in Arabic-influenced Islam) but of an accompanying geo-political expansion that is envisioned as eventually encompassing, through whatever means of conquest, peaceful or other wise may be necesary to its achievement, the entire inhabited earth, are woven into the very "DNA" of the Islamic faith, inasmuch as these are justified by the example of Mohammed and the teachings supposedly passed on to him in his encounters with the Archangel Gabriel as summarized within the Koran and the other source documents of Islamic theology, in a way that simply is not the case with the sacred texts of other faiths, a few appalling references in, for example, the Old Testament, notwithstanding. Because of this, violence is a congenital disease within Islam, and moderate - perhaps it would be clearer to call them "cultural" - Muslims, are challenged in a way that I think makes their position, and their ability to resist the more violent in Islamic community, very uncertain. The result of all this, is that in the name of the eventual, and necesary - as many devout Muslims see it - victory of Islam against all forces that oppose or question it, forces like Hizbollah and other Islamic terror groups, adopt moral standards around issues of conflict and the rules of war, that people like you and I find appalling. These include, based largely on the teachings of the Koran and the example of Mohammed, things like the taking of hostages as human shields to demoralize the enemy, a practice that is alleged, accurately it seems to me, to have been used extensively by Hezbollah during the August war. The high death toll in areas targetted by Israel results from the fact the Hezbollah deliberately prevented civilian populations who would otherwise have fled from doing so, something Israel did not do (to the contrary Israel went out of its way in most situations to warn non-combatants out of its targetted areas) in order to cause world opinion to turn against Israel as a result of a high casualty count. Moreover, the tactics of Jihad include a great deal of deception ("taqiyya") aimed at psychologically disarming an enemy and winning his trust as a means to buy time or build more favourable conditions before resuming conflict more openly and aggressively. In practical terms this has meant that, in keeping with principles regarding the conduct of war enunciated in the Koran, the Muslim Arab states, the Palestinian authority and other Arab players, have seemed to make many agreements with Israel that would appear to lead to peace, but have repeatedly broken them one way or another and continued to renew terror attacks and other forms of hostility embodying their perennial desire for Israel’s destruction. We in the west must consider how debilitating and corrossive this ongoing, passive-aggressive hostility and seemingly intractable threat is and how difficult it makes life for the Israelis. The capture of the two Israeli soldiers and the killing of the three others that served as the most immediate cause of Israel’s actions were only the “straw that broke the camel’s back", the culminating event in a long series, over many years, of broken promises and failed agreements. Therefore, I disagree with your comparison of Israel and Hezbollah. The latter, it seems to me is deserving of condemnation, while the former, at least in this case, is not.

All of this argues that in Islam, the West has found another enemy that, like Nazi Germany in the 1930s, it may be necesary to go on a much more aggressive war footing to deal with. I do not say that we should rush headlong into a global war - indeed I would hope that it can be avoided and am sometimes optimistic that it may - but we really are up against an enemy that is extremely dangerous. Moreover, it must be kept in mind - in fact most people in the West are largely unaware of this at least at any significant conscious level - that the current situation of the world, the growing Jihadist violence not just in the West, but in nearly every other region of the planet - is part of a process of growing Islamization that has effected the world for over 1300 years, since the very first appearance of Islam, and that with perhaps some significant exceptions, has been brought about mostly through aggressive warfare, dreadful oppression and highly refined techniques of terror. Much, or most, of the imperialism of Western nations in the last three hundred years was surely, at least in large measure, driven by Europe's encounters with this menace and the certainty of its perceived need to come out on top and impose its terms on the Middle East and other Islamic areas after having experienced numerous brushes with death at the hands of invading Islamic armies. Indeed, what seems to make the resolution of the "Palestinians'" plight so difficult to resolve, is the fact that having once been occupied by an Islamic power, the Muslim world simply can not accept the fact that these lands have passed to a non-Muslim occupant. This is the same reasoning according to which the Muslim Brotherhood insists on retaking Spain and its other ancient conquests in Europe, before going on to retake the rest of it at last. Given that the Muslim world had seen numerous forced transfers of populations under Islamic rule, all readily assimilated as the will of Allah, and had no indigenous traditions equal to the modern West's evolving doctrines of the sovereignty of the nation-state within its agreed borders, the rule of law and the self-determination of peoples and the like that could govern a resolution of the Palestinian question, the partition of Palestine in favour of Israel in 1948 was as reasonable as any other policy the region had ever seen, even though its been used ever since as a pretext - and I'm convinced that its just that, along with most other Arab grievances - for making trouble for the Western powers and renewing the centuries-old attempts at the conquest of Europe and its offshoots in the Western hemisphere. Keep in mind that beginning in the 8th and 9th centuries, and without any provocation or pretexts whatever, significant parts of Western Europe - Sicily, areas of southern France, numerous Italian cities, including Rome, and most significantly, Spain (for 850 years) were occupied, at least briefly, many for periods of several decades, by invading Islamic armies, or at least occassional raiders, and that twice - 1572 and 1683 - both dates well within our modern era - Europe nearly fell to massive Turkish armies bent on turning it into another Islamic continent. If the Islamic "dhimma" is now successfully imposed on Europe by the aggressive encroachments of that continents galvanized, growing and increasingly successful Islamic minorities, and Europe’s advanced culture and technology - particularly Britain's and France's nuclear weapons - coopted into the strategic resources of a triumphant "Umma", the modern world, including the values that we leftists cherish, will be in very big trouble.

It seems quite clear to me that we are increasingly embroiled in a major conflict that could, in the worst case scenario, lead to a global military showdown that would beggar the Second World War in terms of destructiveness, loss of life and duration. I am hopeful that it can be avoided by means of containment, which would be greatly assisted it seems to me by our ending our commercial relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf oil states that fund militant Islamic movements. However, should this, or other policies aimed at containing the threat, fail to bring an end to Jihadist terrorism, and they somehow manage to continue to threaten the non-Muslim world, the West, as well as the rest of the non-Muslim world, much of which is threatened just as we are by Islamist violence, must be prepared to fully engage this fight no matter what its cost, and to bring the entire world into it, because I‘m convinced that in such circumstances only a massive and complete defeat culminating in absolute surrender or extinction, such as that which was inflicted on Germany and Japan several decades ago, that delivers to the Umma the kind of existential blow that convinces its people that they have failed in all of their historical aims, been rejected by the entire world, and been completely abandoned and cursed by God, will be able to overcome the atmospherics and the powerful forces of suggestion by which the Koran and its preaching seems to constantly convince the Islamic world and its citizens of their innate superiority, and render them pliant to the kind of reform that Islamic moderates supposedly have in mind. What I think is the absolutely indispensable element of containment, however, if this is going to work, is that we begin to take a more restrictive, even repressive, approach to the Muslim minorities in the West, that would unfortunately have to restrict Muslims from positions in society that might allow a fifth column to compromise the West’s security, namely the military, police and security agencies, and some professions such as teaching, and that subject the activities of Islamic institutions, including the teaching and doctrine imparted in Mosques, to very heavy government control and monitoring, and confines its expression to limits determined by the laws and values of Western societies until such time as this conflict is resolved in favour of democratic, pluralistic values. In such a system, we would have to be prepared to deport or imprison those who will not work within those limits or who insist on Islam’s right to impose itself over and above all other laws and sovereignties. This shocks our liberal values but I point out that human rights and civil liberties never thrive in war, or any other type of major conflict, and I have even heard extreme leftists say as much themselves when responding to the human rights abuses inflicted by forces such as Marxist insurgencies in the third world or the civil war in Russia after the communist revolution. So I think we have to swallow this as part of the price of winning this struggle. Moreover, when one considers that according to opinion polls conducted in the United Kingdom, as many as 70 percent of British Muslims would refuse to cooperate with police investigating terror plots, and approximately 10 percent of them believe that terror attacks against targets in the West are justified, where exactly, one wonders, are the famous Islamic moderates we keep hearing about and all want to believe are striving heroically to win the struggle for the soul of Islam. As I write this I am also listening to a news report about the revelation of the existence of a second mole who helped federal authorities break up the Ontario terror plot that was foiled early this past summer, and what I find noteworthy, and distressing, in it is the fact that, as others in these pages have pointed out, the cooperation that the investigators received from within the Muslim community seems to have been prompted by concern for the safety of the Muslim community specifically, and for its reputation in this country, rather than on principalled commitment to the laws of this country and the values of our democracy. I just finished listening to a Muslim spokesman saying that Muslims have always been assumed to be nothing but a group of terrorists even though I recall that even after September 11, most Canadians, like most Americans, bent over backwards to reassure our Muslim neighbours, to protect them from backlash, and to speak of Islam as a “religion of peace” that had merely been hijacked by a small group of extremists, and this reminds me of Robert‘s persistent complaint that Islamic moderation often appears to be little more than Muslims responding to reports of Islamic terrorist activity by complaining not about the terrorists but about Islam being “misunderstood“. But after more of these attacks, in Madrid, in London, in Bali, numerous foiled attacks and well-documented, widely reported threats, gruesome murders of journalists and others, is it any wonder that more and more of us, including a leftist like me, and perhaps you as well, are beginning to feel that there is something innately wrong with Islam itself that is at the core of this. Although Pope Benedict, and his predecessor John Paul II, would probably, at least at this point, have serious reservations, if not totally condemn, the militarism I am advocating here, I agree with their position on Islam, which Benedict began to make clear long before his pontificate began, and John Paul made clear in his 1995 book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”, namely that there are elements within Islam which are very admirable and which serve as a source of great edification for its followers, such as its tremendous discipline of prayer, its austere morality, and its devotion to fasting and almsgiving, all of which serve as the foundation for the building of bridges to the Christian world, but that nonetheless, considered as a whole it is totally inadequate as a religious or ethical system, and even innately dangerous. If you doubt that such an assessment is true, I have some suggestions that I’d ask you to consider as worthwhile reading material.

Now that you’ve made your presence known on this site, I would encourage you to continue to read its articles and the comments that follow them, and to join in the discussions. In addition I would suggest that you might want to read Robert’s books if you can get ahold of them. Some other excellent books that are basic primers for those just beginning to learn about Jihad are Andrew Bostom’s “Legacy of Jihad”, a massive compendium of documents from Islamic sources outlining the teachings of the Koran on the topic and the doctrines of Islamic theologians, jurists and legislators, and the primary historical documents of eyewitnesses, both Muslim and non-Muslim to the conquests and occupations of Islamic armies in every era and region they’ve been active in, with very little commentary by the editor, who wisely allows these documents to speak for themselves, and Bat Ye‘or‘s “The Decline of Eastern Christianity“, a survey of the history of Jihad violence and its destruction of Christendom in the Middle East and the effects of the dhimma imposed on Christians, Jews and others. I make this suggestion because you have seemed open to objective evaluation of the situation. While I respect many of the values of the Left, I do think that its important for the Left to reevaluate its policies regarding multiculturalism and immigration, and to reconsider its evaluation of Islam, because whatever might be said on topics like property relations in Islamic ethics and other esoteric and theoretical concepts, what Islamic extremists are trying to achieve is not something that can eventually lead to the West's post-enlightenment doctrine of Socialism, with its insistence on the supremacy of science and its assimilation of enlightenment values, but an imposition of 7th century desert tribalism, and they will not show the tolerance toward socialists and other Leftists that these have shown toward them should they ever succeed in coming to power around the world, and I do hope that you will be only one of many others from the Left who will begin to come forward to join the struggle against Jihadist mayhem in the world. I hope you will work on educating and informing the rest of our fellow leftists. Thanks for your patience in reading this rather long post (even by my standards) and I hope its helpful and thought-provoking. I'd welcome any further response you may care

"I go to SFU in BC. Everybody is ridiculously ignorant and left-wing. ... it's definately gonna be a swim up a waterfall to educate these people...

Posted by TheVoiceofTruth

Nevertheless ... TRY!!! As I said to Sylvia, the whole world, left, right and center has to be united against this menace. Do what you can to get them on board.

Wow, Templar, thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful response. Yes, I am relatively new here, which is perhaps why I haven't been trounced for my comments! Either that or chivalry isn't quite dead.

I appreciate the subtleties of your position, and totally agree (after reading this and other websites for a while now) that Islam is an especially difficult and dangerous threat to deal with, but I'm with JPII: war is failure. There has to be another way.

Like you my leftyness is informed by my Catholic faith and if there's a way out of this I think it has to involve God and the Gospels. I figure the worst thing the Islamists can do to me is make me hate or fear. "Fear not those who can kill the body..." If I believe in Christ, and his judgement, I have to believe that his way of nonviolent (though certainly not passive) love is best. How exactly that will "work" is perhaps not for us to know. Maybe it won't succeed in eliminating Islam, but if it prevents "us" from turning into "them," I think that's a good thing. But we shouldn't stop there. It sounds corny, and politically-incorrect, these days, but perhaps we should be thinking in terms of saving their souls, not saving our skins.

“If I believe in Christ, and his judgement, I have to believe that his way of nonviolent (though certainly not passive) love is best“.

Well, Sylvia, there’s no doubt that you’re right about that, of course. I guess the struggle that I have at the moment is related to the expectation incumbent on the state to provide security for its citizens, as a function of its role in maintaining law and order. How this, if it comes to war, can be reconciled with the self-effacing and all-suffering love of Christ is a very troubling conundrum, indeed. But, LOL, while I agree that we must work primarily on saving these people’s souls, I think it’d be real nice to save our skins as well, if we can!

Don’t worry about being trounced from the forum for your views. We don’t all agree, but the whole point is that we all believe in the free exchange of ideas. The most you can expect is that some posters will be rather caustic at times. But we all learn from one another, I think, and you’ll find the discussions enriching, so stick around.

Take care.

I don't know who's hiding behind the name "sylvia forester," but the synonymous nature of the two names makes me think it might be a Jean or Marie Dubois, or maybe somebody who lives in the North Woods of Canada. In any case, I don't appreciate the holier-than-thou [prechi-precha] attitude of "sylvia" towards Israel. Before telling us how impartial the "left" is, "sylvia" ought to bear in mind that the major media present very distorted accounts of what goes on in Israel and between Israel and Arabs. Even worse falsehoods are propounded by Arab and Muslim organizations and by "leftist" bodies. Where did "she" get the numbers "3000 Lebanese civilians" killed by Israel?? Now, if more Lebanese civilians were killed by Israel than Israelis killed by Hizbullah, then perhaps we should kill some of our own in order to make things fair? Would that please "sylvia"??
Anyhow, Ignatieff and the "left" in general do not take into account the very Nazi-like ideology of the Hizbullah towards Jews ["The Jewish microbe is everywhere" -- le microbe juif est partout" was a quote from hizbullah going back to 1987 and published in LeFigaro]. Nor do Ignatieff and the "left" take into account the immense financial backing of hizbullah by the Nazis of Iran. Nor the fact that most Lebanese do not want hizbullah to run a state-within-a-state, do not want hizbullah to control Lebanon, and did not want a war with Israel.
Ignatieff and the "left" are no doubt influenced by lies and distortions in the media and by those spread by international "leftist" bodies and Arabs. Nevertheless, it behooves someone in a leadership post like ignatieff to learn the real facts and not take the media accounts at face value, and certainly not to accept partisan claims made by anyone, especially not by Arabs who are notorious liars, and have a long record of false atrocity propaganda. So ignatieff cannot be considered a "friend of Israel," if he accepts [and even worse, repeats] the lies told by Israel's enemies. Likewise, "sylvia's" ostensible even-handedness is fake since it is based on ignorance that "sylvia" has not tried to correct. Indeed, the history of Judeophobia [antisemitism] in the West, is a history of lies and distortions, etc. Hence, whoever does not want to be a Judeophobe, must be aware of the propensity for the Jews' enemies in the West to lie about the Jews, whether this be the blood libel or Dreyfus' alleged treason, etc. By the way, such lies as the claim that Jews use the blood of Christians in baking Matsot [unleavened bread] for the Passover holiday, are commonplace in the Arab press nowadays and have been for many years. Indeed, Mustafa Tlas, former military minister of Syria --another major sponsor of Hizbullah-- has written books claiming that Jews use Christian or Muslim blood for that purpose. Tlas claims that Damascus Jews in 1840 killed a priest to get his blood for baking matsot. This was the notorious Damascus Affair which only fanatic Judeophobes believe in. Yet, the "left" today takes the same stance as the Mustafa Tlasses in the Arab world. Sylvia, learn the truth or shut up.