"We weren't isolated growing up. We were part of the culture," says Hala Kotb. "Religion was important, but not so much that you'd have to cover your head or if you don't pray five times a day, that's it - nothing like that. There were a lot more progressive attitudes." That is a big contrast to the Islamic enclaves in Europe.
This is a major admission -- that more Islam leads to more Islamic violence. And the relatively high levels of assimilation here are indeed encouraging, but "for now" may be the most important words in this report, since assimilation (cf. Maher Hawash) will not ultimately be enough to counteract the effect of the jihadist appeal to the Qur'an and Sunnah when seeking recruits.
"Radical Islam finds US 'sterile ground': Home-grown terror cells are largely missing in action, a contrast to Europe's situation," by Alexandra Marks in The Christian Science Monitor, with thanks to Mackie:
NEW YORK – The Islamist radicalism that inspired young Muslims to attack their own countries - in London, Madrid, and Bali - has not yielded similar incidents in the United States, at least so far."Home-grown" terror cells remain a concern of US law officers, who cite several disrupted plots since 9/11. But the suspects' unsophisticated planning and tiny numbers have led some security analysts to conclude that America, for all its imperfections, is not fertile ground for producing jihadist terrorists.
To understand why, experts point to people like Omar Jaber, an AmeriCorps volunteer; Tarek Radwan, a human rights advocate; and Hala Kotb, a consultant on Middle East affairs. They are the face of young Muslim-Americans today - educated, motivated, and integrated into society - and their voices help explain how the nation's history of inclusion has helped to defuse sparks of Islamist extremism.
"American society is more into the whole assimilation aspect of it," says New York-born Mr. Jaber. "In America, it's a lot easier to practice our religion without complications."...
Jaber, the AmeriCorps volunteer, who is studying to become a medical doctor, says he has not experienced anti-Muslim bias. In part, he says, that may be because he doesn't have an accent or look particularly Middle Eastern - his father is Palestinian and his mother Filipino. But he also credits America's melting-pot mentality, as does Ms. Kotb, the Middle East consultant.
"We weren't isolated growing up. We were part of the culture," says Kotb, who grew up outside Washington in a family that inculcated a success ethic. "Religion was important, but not so much that you'd have to cover your head or if you don't pray five times a day, that's it - nothing like that. There were a lot more progressive attitudes" within her local Muslim community.
In mosques in America, it's fairly common for imams to preach assimilation, says Mr. Zogby. That's not as true in Europe, particularly in poorer neighborhoods where sermons can be laced with extremism.
"The success of ... Saudi-inspired religious zealotry in Europe was in large part because the Saudis put up the money to build mosques and pay for imams," says Ian Cuthbertson, a counterterrorism expert at the World Policy Institute at the New School for Social Research. "The American Muslim community was rich enough not to require Saudi money to build its mosques."
In Europe, it's estimated that millions of second- and third-generation Muslims have not been well assimilated in their adopted countries, so have little or no fealty to either the European country they live in or the one their parents were born in. "They are much more susceptible to the Internet, returning jihadist fighters, and extremist imams," says Thomas Sanderson of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. "There's no doubt that Europe has an incubator environment and we have a somewhat sterile environment for radicalism."...
Identifying and tracking home-grown terrorists is a complicated task - one that risks alienating or even infuriating the general Muslim-American citizenry if tactics are seen as unfair....
US foreign policies "in the long term are going to hurt the US," says Mr. Radwan, the human rights activist, who works in Washington. "They, along with the crackdown on Muslim-Americans [by law enforcement], feed a feeling of resentment and the perception that the US acts on the basis of a double standard."
Indeed, America's Muslim community would wage the war on terror differently. According to the 2004 Zogby survey, three-quarters say the best way is for the US to change its foreign policy in the Middle East by recognizing a Palestinian state and being less supportive of Israel....
Give us what we want peacefully, and we won't resort to violence. But of course abandoning Israel would do nothing to end the jihad in Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Chechnya, Nigeria, etc. More concessions would have to follow, until there would be nothing more to concede.
That experience leads him to suggest another reason the US hasn't seen European-style homegrown terror cells: the intense scrutiny the FBI has focused on Muslim-Americans. "That is good in the short term, but bad in the long term," he says. "The Bush administration policies feed resentment that ... will stay in the Arab- American psyche for a long time."
In other words, fighting jihad terrorism just leads to more jihad terrorism -- they're in effect saying, Lie down and die, please, Mr. Bush.
Many in America who claim to be Christians are so in name only or marginally. They "believe" in a God and like to say it's the Christian God, yet they don't obey or believe what the Bible teaches. This can also be said of Muslims I guess.
Propaganda, bs, taqiyya. In my laid back southern town there are al qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, and al fuqra cells to name a few. The missing factor here in the U.S. is numbers, not economics, 'assimilation' or any other leftist pc feature that deflects islamic politicl ideology. See Steve Emerson's Jihad in America video for further details.
There was no evidence of terror cells in Europe until the Muslim population reached critical mass. Then all of a sudden there were hundreds. And its not as if Jihadi activities have not been found all over the USA. Its just a matter of time as the Muslim population grows.
The difference in Muslim behavior in the U.S., as compared to that demonstrated in Western Europe is owed primarily to several factors.
First, and most important, the Muslim population is amuch smaller proportion of the American population -- scarcely 1%, and of even that 1%, most of the Muslims are homegrown Black Muslims, whose own easygoing and at times even syncretistic interpretation of Islam in the past caused the orthodox at Al Azhar to refuse to recognize Elijah Mohammad's group as real Isl
But what if there were not 3 million Muslims (two million of them identified as belonging ot the "Black Muslims") but rather 15 million -- that is, 5% of the total population -- or even 30 million, or 10% of the total population, as may already be true in France? Wouldn't local Muslims, already so aggressive and unyielding in the demands of their so-called representative groups (e.g. CAIR), be far more aggressive and even more demanding, even more uncooperative with the authorities on matters of security, even more aggressive in demands to changes in our legal and political institutions, in our schools, in our social understandings and arrangements, in our everything?
Second, the non-Muslim population of the United States contains far more believing Christians, and self-identifying Jews, than anywhere in "post-Christian" Western Europe. They are powerful and self-confident, and will not yhield as French and English have yielded. America is a more violent society, and part of that violence includes a willingness, even an eagerness, to have those who threaten that society suppressed -- thank god -- unapologetically.
Third, the pre-existing mental pathologies that have helped Muslims to find allies of sorts in the countries of Western Europe are antisemitism, which remains a permanent presence in the Western world which nothing can eradicate, but which in the United States, for all sorts of reasons (including the identification of so many Americans, including the earliest Puritans, with the Israelites, and the role of the Old Testament in American intellectual and religious history) has been reduced far below its European levels. The second pre-existing mental pathology cleverly exploited by Muslims and their willing collaborators in the countries of Western Europe has been anti-Americanism, strongest in France and England, less strong in Germany and especially, thank god, in Italy
Fourth, Muslims are not provided with as many benefits paid for by Infidel taxpayers, as they are in Western Europe, and so cannot rely on the dole for their every need, nor on fiddling the system to the degree that is now de rigueur in England and France. They need, therefore, the good will of non-Muslim customers and employers, and this may -- for a while, even a long while --inhibit open political activity. After all, if one realizes that one's contribution to CAIR or one's open support for Muslim goals may cause direct economic losses, one may hesitate.
Fifth, in this country there are many more non-Muslim refugees from Muslim lands -- Christians who are descended from those Maronites who arrived between 1880 and 1940, or Jews who left Arab lands but did not go to Israel, or pockets here and there of smaller sects, including Assyrians and Chaldean Christians -- who are able to provide, to those around them, unpleasant monitory truths about Islam and its tenets, its attitudes.
Sixth, there are far more people in this country who have remained in possession of their sense,, and who are quite capable of refusing to accept the party line of the members of MESA Nostra (which google), and to find out for themselves about both the theory, or doctrines, of Islam, and about Islam in practice, as evidenced by 1350 years of Islamic conquest of non-Muslim lands and by the subsequent subjugation, and killing or forced conversion or reduction to the status of dhimmi, of the vanquished non-Muslims.
Seventh, given all that, it is cleverer to wait, to bide one's time. Who knows what will happen in ten years, or twenty? Why make moves too soon, when there is such a danger of imperilling oneself and one's ability to remain in this country, at this point?
But no one should remain sanguine. Look at Mike Hawash in Oregon, that Intel engineer, earning $360,000 a year, with his American wife and Little-League playing children, and the stout stand-by-your-man support of Intel executives, who nonetheless returned to that old-time religion, but that old-time religion turned out, for "Mike" (Mohammad) Hawash, to be Islam, so after 9.11.2001 it was off to western China, in the hopes of reaching Afghanistan, and killing fellow Americans who were, for Mike Hawash and all the Mike Hawashes of Islam, not fellow Infidel citizens of an Infidel nation-state, but enemies to be killed -- because they were Infidels, and because they stood in the way of, represented an obstacle to, the spread and future dominance of Islam. And the would-be murderer in Chapel Hill, gunning his SUV and running over non-Muslim students, was the son of secular Iranians in exile -- but he, too, in a moment of intellectual and vocational confusion, apparently found Islam, and in finding Islam, he became the would-be Jihadist who would kill Infidels who had done nothing to him. Why? Because that was what Allah wanted, that was what Muhammad wanted -- he spelled it all out in long handwritten letters written while in custody. And there are many such -- people who are outwardly fine, until one fine day they are not so fine, and then, whatever the reasons, they have at hand someone to blame, someone to kill -- the Infidel. In Afghanistan, or right here in Chapel Hill, or New York City, or anywhere in the United States, in every village and town, such events can happen, and no one knows when it might happen, and everyone will say as they always do, after the fact, that "he was such a nice man" and "it just doesn't make sense" and no Paul Revere or William Dawes or Joseph Prescott will come riding to warn us ahead of time, and the government appears determined not to instruct or to warn us, or even to learn what it needs to learn for itself, about what Islam teaches, and what, therefore, sooner or later, a large number of Muslims, or their children, or their grandchildren, will almost certainly, for any number of political or personal reasons, come to embrace. With grim consequences for the Infidels and their nation-state. Yet we are expected to do nothing, to cling to Pollyannish assumptions and supposedly comforting findings, as in the article above.
Not comforted. Not one whit.
I just don't buy the argument that Muslims here are more "assimilated", whatever that means. I realize that it is probably a minority who will eventually murder and maim non-combatants, but I would bet that a large chunk are sympathetic to the Jihadist's cause. Polls certainly indicate this in the Mideast.
Reading Steve Emerson's new book one realizes, as covered already by Walid Phares and Robert, Jihad can proceed on many levels and in many areas in our relatively free society. Until you see a majority of Muslims speaking out and criticizing the literal interpretation of the Koran, (not holding my breath) nothing will change.
No doubt, liberals in this country will be terribly upset at the aspect of Muslims In America being "assimilated," since that leads to less "diversity." To a liberal, assilimilation is BAD, but diversity is GOOD.
Michael Savage is righ--Liberalism is a mental disorder.
The whole point of Robert's work is that the Islam that is defined by the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunna (sp?) is inherently violent, hateful, supersessionary and misogynistic. It never wanted or was able to exist pluralistically.
Wishing otherwise will not make it so, and the evidence is in Europe where the parents of today's 'youths' were much more 'peaceful'.
To hope that our society can seduce America's Muslims to become 'nominal' is a serious misjudgement.
I say that Islam should not be permitted to be practiced here until Mecca and Saudi Arabia are open to all and a Bible or a crucifix can be displayed with impunity. In other words, when Islam reciprocates, I will be more sanguine about allowing it here, but don't hold your breath.
Ethelred
A small translation tip:
"assimilated" = "sleeper"
Amana39,
I agree. I think that the Jihazis in the United States are just laying low for now. I guess some people have don't know what a, "Sleeper Cell" is...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Oops,
Sorry about the typo on my last post, but you get the idea, I'm sure.
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Ronin,
Hey, how are you doing, buddy?
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Ronin,
I guess we think alike, as you must have posted that "Sleeper" comment while I was typing my "Sleeper" comment!!!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
A Muslim in America, with a wife, a non-Islamic mortgage, their kids playing soccer with infidel's kids, and of course the BMW or Mercedes payments has too much to lose and therefore has lost the jihad mentality. Losing that Mercedes is just too much to contemplate.
Furthermore, the American muftis seem to have a different attitude about Islamic minutiae that is different from the overseas dispensers of Islamic opinion.
Indeed, America's Muslim community would wage the war on terror differently. According to the 2004 Zogby survey, three-quarters say the best way is for the US to change its foreign policy in the Middle East by recognizing a Palestinian state and being less supportive of Israel....
How is recognizing a Palestinian state equivalent to waging the war on terror?
So what was Bill Clinton doing all through the nineties as he had the terrorist-in-chief, Yasser Arafat to the White House for what, eight times? Why was the US attacked throughout the nineties if the Palestinian state was all that was needed? What stopped Arafat from declaring a state? It was offered to him. He was the one who said no.
Why would he even have needed Israel's approval? All he had to do was declare independence and dare the Israelis to attack without cause.
What did Bush 43 do when he became the first US president to support a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza? What is stopping the Palestinians from declaring a state today? We should have seen Palestinia in the UN at least two years ago. What's holding you up Hamas? Palestinian Authority, where are you? Where's your declaration? Kofi Annan would love to greet you and show you your own personal accommodations before his term is up.
One major difference between Europe and America is that ethnic enclaves don't last long here. For example, Litlle Italy in lower Manhattan, was once a 20 X 20 block area (only 50 years ago) that was so densely populated that it had it's own congressman. Today the area called "Little Italy" is a few blocks of restaurants. The pressure to assimilate is very powerful in America. Many families in America consist of multiple ethnic groups via marriage. In my own family there are Irish, Puerto Ricans, Vietnamese, Poles and mixtures thereof. Very few can trace their ancestry in America back more than 100 years. This is not unusual in America. Muslims in America are going to find it hard not to assimilate.
This is not Saudi Arabia. This is America. God bless America.
I should have read Hugh's comments before I posted my comments. Nevertheless, the Lone Jihadist that we have encountered in the US is a far cry from what is happening in France. I will admit that the Muslim I described is just one trip to the Mosque away from jihad. Perhaps I need to meet some Welfare-Muslims from the ghetto, or if one of those Muslim engineers I have known over the last twenty years were to blow something up.
If this nation puts a stop to Muslim immigration, our situation will be controllable.
Where do the Welfare Muslims live anyway?
Frank,
Amen to that!
God Bless America!!!
Less jihadist sentiment in US than in Europe -- because Muslims are less religious
New Improved moslems:
NOW with 10% LESS jihadist sentiment!!
Anyone care to purchase the Manhattan Bridge from me? I closed on the Brooklyn Bridge just last week. Sold it to a nice gentleman named John McCain. His advisor Warren Christopher was instrumental in making the deal.
[the fool]
A message to CAIR tpes: you better "curb your dogmas" in America. People have come to America to get away from assholes like you, have escaped from places where people treat beliefs as facts, from people that want to force their beliefs on others (Jihadists, etc.). People here are not going to tolerate this mental illness you call "religion".
NEW YORK – The Islamist radicalism that inspired young Muslims to attack their own countries - in London, Madrid, and Bali - has not yielded similar incidents in the United States, at least so far.
England and Spain ARE NOT THEIR COUNTRIES!!!
I hate when the press tries to slip that in - ever so casually, I might add!
They may be BORN there. That's ***ALL***!!!
See "Muslims for a Safe America" URL. Note all 307 in the survey were US citizens.
ISNA Survey
"Muslims For A Safe America conducted a survey at the Islamic Society of North America’s 43rd Annual Convention in Chicago from September 1, 2006 to September 4, 2006.
307 Muslims who are American citizens participated in the survey at the Muslims For A Safe America booth at ISNA. "
2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST 214
AMERICAN FIRST 4
BOTH EQUALLY 86
UNDECIDED 3
3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES 208
NO 79
UNDECIDED 20
21. Should Iran develop nuclear weapons?
YES 161
NO 123
UNDECIDED 23
Maybe this has already been commented on here, if so my apologies, but its still interesting.
Indeed, America's Muslim community would wage the war on terror differently. According to the 2004 Zogby survey, three-quarters say the best way is for the US to change its foreign policy in the Middle East by recognizing a Palestinian state and being less supportive of Israel....
Really? It's ALWAYS about Israel and the Palestinians. Are we really to believe that had the US recognized a Palestinian state in 1996 then 9/11 never would have happened? And I suppose if all the Jews in Israel magically disappeared there would be peace on earth. Somehow, I believe it more likely that the Mahdi will show up than for people like these to accept reality.
Doctor Bulldog-
Amen and amen. This is the best place on earth. We're not perfect. But who can blame people for wanting to be here? God bless America again and again till the latest generation on earth.
To understand why, experts point to people like Omar Jaber, an AmeriCorps volunteer;
Hmmmmm....
Tarek Radwan, a human rights advocate;
Whose human rights? On whose payroll? We'd like to know a little more.. just a bit more detail please.
and Hala Kotb, a consultant on Middle East affairs.
Whom are you consulting exactly? Who is paying your salary?
They are the face of young Muslim-Americans today - educated, motivated, and integrated into society - and their voices help explain how the nation's history of inclusion has helped to defuse sparks of Islamist extremism.
THIS ARTICLE IS A ***SNOW JOB!!!!***
Hey everyone!!!
ROBERT SPENCER is on GLENN BECK on CNN right now!!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
I forgot the Greeks. My sister Virgina is married to Greek guy. They have four Greek-Irish boys.
Wash Post
"The identity of Muslims in the U.K. is Muslim first and foremost and British second," Ranstorp said, echoing a recent Pew global survey of Muslim attitudes that found that 81 percent of British Muslims who responded agreed with that sentiment. Only Pakistan had a higher percentage of people who considered themselves Muslims first, the survey showed."
Note above we had 214/307 were Muslim first. Only 4 /307 were American first.
The search "Muslim first," on google has over 39,000 hits.
"Muslim first,"
"Muslim first, American"
only 21 hits.
Wash Post
"The identity of Muslims in the U.K. is Muslim first and foremost and British second," Ranstorp said, echoing a recent Pew global survey of Muslim attitudes that found that 81 percent of British Muslims who responded agreed with that sentiment. Only Pakistan had a higher percentage of people who considered themselves Muslims first, the survey showed."
consider the source...
Also the Muslims in this country ( the USA ) know that non-Muslims have what non-Muslims in the UK, France, and most of Europe do not have, a 2nd Admendment, a right to keep and bear arms. Also non-Muslim American keep a closer on the the Muslims and the latter know the former will not have any tolerance for their nonsense.
"We weren't isolated growing up. We were part of the culture," says Hala Kotb. "Religion was important, but not so much that you'd have to cover your head or if you don't pray five times a day, that's it - nothing like that. There were a lot more progressive attitudes." That is a big contrast to the Islamic enclaves in Europe.
True Muslim women cover themselves completely when going out into public. The Koran commands it.
I have a question for all 'moderates' of all 'religious' groups:
When worshipping a powerful Creator/creator - why bother - if your heart is not 100% for pleasing your Creator/creator?
True Christians 'sing' the song of Moses. Rev 15:3
No self-professing Christian group who has a voice in this world - is 'singing' the song of Moses. If they were - we would know it - because It would rock this whole world.
This is a major admission -- that more Islam leads to more Islamic violence. And the relatively high levels of assimilation here are indeed encouraging, but "for now" may be the most important words in this report, since assimilation (cf. Maher Hawash) will not ultimately be enough to counteract the effect of the jihadist appeal to the Qur'an and Sunnah when seeking recruits.
'Singing' the song of Moses - will utterly destroy the Koran - because the song of Moses destroys the crediblity of 'allah'
In order to obey 'allah' - one must believe that he is credible.
As bizarre as all of this may sound - so is the belief that the teachings of beheadings, gang rape, crucifixions, and the cutting off of hands and feet - are 'Holy' acts.
The Koran has power - obviously.
But then - so does the Bible.
More so - simply because of the proof given by way of prophecies; especially with this latest major prophecy - unfolding before the eyes of all.
Palestine.
Too many secularists stand in the way. They prefer that their solutions are heard and implemented. [feel comfortable yet?]
They reject the fact that no human has the power to take down 'allah'
They also reject the fact that there remains a Power Who can.
As the teachings of 'allah' are spread by the mouth - the One Word that can destroy 'allah' - is hindered.
Let them hinder. [there is a silver lining - a very unchristian thing to say]
And in the end - let none blame the Power Who does not FORCE Himself upon all.
The One Who said - "Love thy neighbor as thyself"
"NEW YORK – The Islamist radicalism that inspired young Muslims to attack their own countries - in London, Madrid, and Bali - has not yielded similar incidents in the United States, at least so far."
The MSM and politicians are trying to justify their immigration policies into the US. This is what they did after WTC 93 and all day on WTC and Pentagon attack day on 9-11-2001. This is now a multi culti celebration of what attacked us in US schools, MSM and government at all levels.
They can't admit they were wrong not to stop immigration after WTC 93, because then they admit they were responsible for the 2001 attacks by new immigrants who came post 1996. The Republicans tried to slow down immigration in 1996, and the MSM called them bigots and stopped them. So now the MSM have to say Muslims are no threat.
The same happened in the UK. Their establishment is committed to the lie. That is why they want the veils off, it reminds people that immigration is a lie. They still have immigration while Jack Straw says take off the veils. Straw knows with the veils on, the people will ask for the immigration to stop, which he wants to prevent being stopped. The sickness is still there.
The MSM have made immigration their religion. Its a religion that happens to hurt the non-elites in job security, speech security and physical security. The elites like that, and that is why its embedded in their propaganda as their religion. Their religion is our subjugation to them, for now. But ultimately they think we are bigots and deserve to go extinct through a birth rate below maintenance.
This is NY Times piece is pure leftist disinformation, the point made by many above starting with Robert, "Lie down and die, please, Mr. Bush." The problem is Bush says that to us and so does McCain, Kennedy, NY Times, Washington Post, etc. "Lie down and die" is the population policy of the MSM and the elites and the government.
Lie down and die? .....OR.....
lie down and be murdered?
Now that's a question!
Kill the terrorists - and the Koran will only send more.
Don't you people get it?
The US Constitution is a brilliant document written by brave men. It has worked well for Western civilization and is (should be) an inspiration to all. But it is defenseless against the Islamic threat. Muslims know this and exploit it. Numbers are not nearly as important as rates.
Constitutional law is fluid. The society we live in is changed by Constitutional evolution. If one dares to wade through twenty pages of warnings, disclaimers, and re-education, you can see how the Supreme Court understood the Constitution 150 years ago, in the Dred Scott case;
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=60&page=393
This example is offered not to suggest that the opinion and mindset behind Dred Scott are correct, but because it shows how quickly things change.
If we hope to have our great grandchildren live in a representative republic 150 years from now, we’ll have to risk being labeled bigots and establish a Constitutional Amendment to end Muslim immigration and provide ready deportation for those among us who act against the national interest. Stendec’s separation of Mohammedism and Islam makes a lot of sense to me as a politically doable way to get it done. We should have the legislation ‘in the can’, waiting for the next terrorist event.
Good point Beth, lets hope our leaders wake up before the answer is made with our bodies.
Frank, That's a great point you made. Most Americans don't really know or care about their ancestors. I probably couldn't name most of my great-grandparents. Contrast this attitude to the one in the muslim world. Clan loyalty is everything. You're a slave to your family's traditions and rulings. If you go against them your killed, especially if your female. Look at Princess Misha'al and how ruthlessly the al-Sauds killed her.
The US Constitution is a brilliant document written by brave men.
Article VII seals the whole US Constitution. It is the last Article.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven {that year signifies only one possible Lord for this Constitution] and of the Independence of the United States of America.
Consider this one:
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes {not filthy money] into the storehouse, that there may be meat {a higher understanding] in Mine house, and prove Me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
'allah' teaches his followers to steal those blessings for themselves. he is a thief. [like father - like son]
In the end - this Christian will be able to say "allah did not make me rich"
Spoken by Abraham....
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich
Heaven is not made up of a bunch of thieves
Limes, you are right. The Left, MSM, Bush, McCain, etc. tell us over and over, our survival is bigotry by definition. They seem to have a funny way of stating evolution, survival of the bigots. They also paraphrase Thrasymachus in Plato, "Justice is the interest of the immigrants." instead of the stronger. For them its the same thing.
We can also paraphrase the Tarzan movie question, "After a war of a thousand years, of what would you make sure?" The answer should be that we survive, but the MSM seems to be that we won't survive.
Beth, "IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven", an interesting point. The whole record of the Founding Fathers, strange it isn't the Immigrant Imams, is the one you give.
Here is another intersting fact Old Atlantic:
The first prayer in Congress, Sept. 24, 1774, in Philadelphia's Carpenters Hall.
Lord our Heavenly Father, High and Mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech thee, on these our American States, who have fled to thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent on Thee, to Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!
Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come.
All this we ask In the Name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior. Amen." And the Lord blessed America - Because they had put their trust in Him.
Yes - the founders of this nation did find refuge - and they were very specific as to Who they were grateful to.
You won't find the ACLU giving credit were credit is due....even for their UNRIGHTEOUS arguments!
And so - let share this again:
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes {not filthy money] into the storehouse, that there may be meat {a higher understanding] in Mine house, and prove Me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
We who are alive today - wheteher we like it or not - ARE the living proof - the God DOES bless the nations who believe in Him:
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD
It seems there are too many of the 'middle' class - and 'middle' aged who have forgotten.
But you know what? I have faith in the young.
They will win.
But not with the help of those who actually believe - they are so wise.
Like I said....
let them hinder.
Let them have eveything they're fighting for.......and more.
Who shall separate me from my hope?
Life eternal
Oh - and by the way...how many know about that FIRST prayer said in the Congress of the United States of America?
Very good point that this country was founded as a refuge. Now that refuge is being lost, given away in fact, by a Congress that no longer hears the prayers said each day, but thinks only of their own profit.
No generation has the right to give up and let end what so many have given so much to give to us when our generation was given its turn to govern. But this is what is happening.
Our generation is called to fight in a way no less important, although surprisingly more difficult, to state in words that this people are a nation as that was understood in days of old, a single people with a right to this land for themselves and their children forever. This simple proposition, which is fundamental to the enduring of any people, as well as any form of state known to history is being tested against the MSM doctrine that states, civilizations, and culture are independent of the people.
No nation governed by such a concept can long endure. We are now met on a battlefield, no less important than any physical one, where these two propositions are to be tested. Only one will win. Either the concept of a nation, civilization, culture, and system of law and justice is dependent on the people, and the people must be preserved to preserve the civilization, or the concept that te civilization has nothing to do with the people will be tested on the next generation.
Although it seems our effort goes out and falls flat, and that society rushes on paying us no heed, the sacrifice we make, and Robert and Hugh even more so, is small compared to those who have given their lives in wars past or wars current. Our effort to convince our fellow citizens to stand up for the preservation of this nation and civilization is of crucial importance.
Why keep on making the effort? The effort we make, and Hugh and Robert even more so, is still not as great as those who have given their lives or their limbs. We should redouble our dedication to see that this nation and this civilization do endure and our passed on to the next generation as close as possible to what was given to us.
Beth,
"Lord our Heavenly Father, High and Mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech thee, on these our American States, who have fled to thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent on Thee, to Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. all this we ask In the Name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.
Amen."
(I used to be an Assistant Pastor before moving from California...)
Old Atlantic; If this thing lasts a thousand years, all of the combatants will need to eat. Don't bet against the good guys.
Our feel-good politicians' actions will make things far more miserable for everybody when consciousness is regained though. It really is a shame.
Muslims in America, may not be as radical as they are in Europe. For one, they have to board a plane, rather than just ride a camel over the border.
But the main reason is numbers. They have not had enough numbers to make enclaves yet. Without the enclaves, like in Paris and London, they don't get the same brainwashing.
But this situation will reverse itself with numbers. With each new muslim coming in, and at the rate they are coming in, the new muslims coming to America I fear will be more isolated and will make enclaves.
And, Oh yeah, that prayer was said on September 7th, 1774 by Jacob Duche in Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia.
Do I get a kiss???
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Hmm, this article may have fingered those mythical moderate Muslims. Let's see how long they remain moderate if we have a major flareup in the Middle East.
After Sept 11 there was an interview of a teenage boy and girl from a islamic school in Virginia. They both said they would gladly be suicide bombers.
The numbers aren't high enough yet but they will be if immigration isn't stopped.
Parents Fly in African Village Elders to Circumcise Their Daughters
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2416783,00.html
Beth,
That was too easy, as you already posted that answer, before asking the question... LOL
However, the prayer that is said before every session of Congress was started by Benjamin Franklin, when he suggested that they should pray for guidance while drafting the Constitution of the United States..
(in 1887, of course...)
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Limes, "Our feel-good politicians' actions will make things far more miserable for everybody when consciousness is regained though." Or when enough of us wake up to stop immigration long enough for even more to wake up. This is one of those sites where the next Great Awakening as our colleagues Beth and Doctor Bulldog might phrase is not just starting but picking up steam. Thanks to all those with the courage to speak up pre 9-11 and even post 9-11 while so many of us stood silent.
At least that form of betrayal is past for those of who have joined the debate now with unpleasant truths that can no longer be avoided.
Borg, was that the Islamic Saudi Academy? "After Sept 11 there was an interview of a teenage boy and girl from a islamic school in Virginia. They both said they would gladly be suicide bombers."
They can live 'assimilated' lives while still few in numbers. Once a critical mass is reached, watch them 'revert' to their leader's true Koranic teachings, and start the campaign against American freedoms to be replaced with shariah laws, and if failing that, to pick up the 'reign of terror' where the 911 jihadists left off. They lie, no matter their friendly intentions, out of weakness, don't trust them. Moslems are what they are, and true Moslems are what they are but worse. Jihad is their call to duty, and killing infidels is a direct ticket to their malevolent paradise. They're a lying cult, so don't trust them.
Non compulsion in religion 2:256 is only while they feel weak. Once they gain in numbers, 9:5 and 9:29 kicks in. Don't trust them, watch UK/France Arabistan's 'back to the future.' That's the truth.
the problem with the introduction about "American mulsims" is that when they do become "devout muslims" they are terrorists. contrary when "Christians or Jews" become "devout" with their relgions they do not go on to become suicide bombers
the ideology of islam creates terrorism as compared to the ideology in other religons. muslims in the US are just a longer ticking bomb.
Michael Savage is righ--Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Posted by: yohannbiimu
YEPPERS!! Robert needs to go on that show! Mention JW so we can get this site to GROW!!!
A friend called me an hour or so ago - she watched the Glenn Beck show and guees who was on there?
Robert Spencer!
She thought all this were news to me and I told her to go on JW and have a look around. She has heard me talk about the muftis before..
She told me they had graphic video tapes of "yoothes" rioting in Paris and in England.
DISGUSTING!
What's even more disgusting is the INACTION of the governments. Even my formerly uninformed friend was shocked when she saw this video taped jihad.
Unfoirtunately you could say:
[in the words of the eternal Jew-hater and Anti-Semite Amiri Baraka]
The jihad is not being televised.
We need to get this stuff on Youtube.
Doctor Bulldog
What difference does it make if the words differ?
Both are saying the same:
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Islam calls the Son of God an abomination - and that is a FACT!
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Plain and simple?
No - they can not.
I say that Islam should not be permitted to be practiced here until Mecca and Saudi Arabia are open to all and a Bible or a crucifix can be displayed with impunity. In other words, when Islam reciprocates, I will be more sanguine about allowing it here, but don't hold your breath.
Ethelred
I second that emotion. How do we get the politicians TO FREAKING GET IT???!!!!
WHY DO WE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON YET THEY DON'T?? IS THE JOB THAT BAD THAT IT ATTRACTS ONLY COMPLETE BLITHERING IDIOTS???!!!
The underlying conclusions of the article may be true, but things could change...
1) The grievance machinery could kick into high gear over a single incident, with a dramatic hardening of perceptions within the American branch of the ummah
2) In the 70s and 80s, Muslim immigrants here were completely assimilated...it was a matter of survival. Not so today; the larger the Muslim communities in America become, in Dearborn, Mich., in northern Virginia, in southern California, the more self-contained they become...and the less of a need to assimilate. That is why immigration policies are so important.
The other salient point here is that a single terrorist cell composed of less than a dozen individuals could wreak unimaginable havoc in America.
We are not immune to the problems in Europe....we just have more time.
Ethelred and GermaninAmerica,
I concur. I once wrote long ago that the day we see the construction of churhes and synagogues in Saudi Arabia is the day we'll know we have won.
Don't worry USA, please do not miss homegrown terror cell for a while, they will be soon here once the population reaches a critical level, as pointed out by Hugh. Did I read somewhere on the same site about Abu Hamza's call for living like sheep and focus on increasing the population so that they can live like lions.
The One Who said - "Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Posted by: Beth
WHAT DO I DO WHEN THE DEVIL MOVES IN NEXT DOOR??
CALL HIM BAAL CALL HIM LUCIFER CALL HIM MAHOMET...
Battle of Tours,
Sura 2:256 is not quite saying what you think it is.
Here are the footnotes for that passage:
"Compulsion is incompatible with religion: because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningles if induced by force: (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of (Allah) that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good-will as to th fundamentals of faith: (3) (Allah's) protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the cleares light."
Abdullah Yusuf Ali - 1946
Sura 9:5 is talking about Pagans - people with no religion, or people with polytheistic beliefs. This has nothing to do with Christians or Jews, so that passage doesn't have anything to do with me, a Baptist, or about 90% of the U.S. population...
Sura 9:29 - Again, this is talking about the Pagans... Read Sura 9:28 for clarification...
It's like I told one of my readers today, hermeneutics is very important when studying any type of scripture.
As in the study of the Bible, it is very important to read all verses surrounding a verse. Else, I could say something like:
" Deuteronomy 7:2 KJV says, 'And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:'"
And, then try to use it to defend my position on killing all of the martians, or something inane like that...
It is very important to look at the verse before Deu. 7:2, in order to comprehend what is going on with that verse.
Just thought I'd let you know. But, keep looking, I'm sure there's got to be something in the Qur'an to support your position. LOL
By the way, I'm not trying to be hard on you, I just think we shouldn't resort to mudslinging by taking things out of conext. I'm sure you will agree that we could take all sorts of stuff out of context in the Bible to make a case for just about anything, but that wouldn't be fair...
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
We are not immune to the problems in Europe....we just have more time.
Posted by: Cornelius
I CONCUR.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet
Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail
You either hear - or you don't
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you...
The fulfilling of the words of Jeremiah:
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me
You either hear - or you don't
It's a tough one - this I know.
Beth,
Sheesh, I never thought I'd be defending the Qur'an, since I am a Christian and don't believe in Allah, the moon god, but, where does it say Jesus is an abomination in the Qur'an?
The Qur'an calls him a great Prophet:
Sura 6:85 - And Zakariya and John And Jesus and Elias: All in the ranks of the Righteous.
I know this stuff, because I use it to convert Muslims to Christianity all the time!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Beth,
And since a prophet cannot lie, according to the Qur'an, then Jesus cannot lie when he said,
I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to my Father except through me.
Pretty slick, eh?
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
The One Who said - "Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Posted by: Beth
WHAT DO I DO WHEN THE DEVIL MOVES IN NEXT DOOR??
CALL HIM BAAL CALL HIM LUCIFER CALL HIM MAHOMET...
Posted by: germaninamerica
germaninamerica? - I am SOOOOOOOOOO happy you asked!
Let us let God answer - shall we?
Yep - I say - lets let God give the answer:
Mal 1:3 And I [the Lord] hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I [the Lord]loved, but Esau have I hated.
To say that God loves EVERYONE - is a lie.
Let me ask you germaninamerica.....Who is your enemy?
I ask that in the name of Christianity
Mic 7:6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Who is my enemy?
One thing is for sure - he's not a stranger:
Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine [of Christ], receive him not into your house, neither bid him God
speed {Good advice - would you not agree? in these days?]
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred. {Spoken by the man who had a heart after God's very own heart
That's exactly how I feel about those who would teach the young to behead - gang rape - cut the hands and feet off of those who they deem worthy of such a horrific act - treason and crucifixions.
Christianity teaches - that no man has that right to pass such judgments - let alone carry them out. Therefore - I hate them with a perfect hatred.
Are you with me?
Pagan,
Oh, I'm sorry, but ALL the Muslims want to kill you... LOL
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
You shall know them by their fruits
Oh, I'm sorry, but ALL the Muslims want to kill you... LOL
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog
Would you like your very own allah's commandments Doctor Bulldog....laid out for all to see?
What's the punishment for calling your own allah a liar?
something that even this infidel is not willing to do
Want those Koran writings?
I'm ready - are you?
Doctor Bulldog, There is no other mention of Jesus except to say he was a prophet. Islam ignores Christ's teachings. Saying that Jesus was a Great Prophet, is lip service, especially when everything in Islam is the exact opposite of what Jesus said was good.
I have never seen the passage, but I believe that the Quran says that Jesus did not deliver the true message of Islam, and he did not die on the cross. I wish I could cite chapter and verse, but I don't have time.
Here is a good site:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
It's searchable. USC as in Trojans, not Gamecocks.
Beth,
Every year, on the night before Resurection Sunday ( Easter ), in my church, one of the OT readings, the one that of all of the seven, MUST be read is the one from Exodus when the Isrealites cross the Red Sea after God commands Moses to part it. The first few verses of the song is read towards the end. The full song is either sung or chanted as the response psalm. The reading in full speaks about the liberation to all Christian believers brought about by both the passion and the resurection of Jesus. Also this speaks about the sacraments of Easter for those coming into my church, most important of the three that night, baptism.
Is there really "less jihad" activity in the U.S. in comparison to that of Europe? It depends on how you define "jihad".
Most people Jihad with violence. Jihad means struggle, and the weapons jihad can be anything that strives or struggles against non-Muslims to further the cause of Islam.
For example, the implementation of Shari'a banking is an example of Jihad, the struggle to get a veiled face accepted on a driver's license is jihad or to prevent non-Muslims from commenting upon Islam or Muslims, chilling freedom of speech is jihad. Preventing blind passengers or those carrying bottles of wine is jihad, and so on.
Jihad is the struggle to force non-Muslims to accept the imposition of Shari'a norms, to accommodate themselves to Muslim rituals and to accept that eventually Muslims, though representative of a small percentage of the population, will change the political and cultural will of the majority of the United States in their favor.
That's jihad.
Doctor Bulldog, There is no other mention of Jesus except to say he was a prophet. Islam ignores Christ's teachings.
Posted by: Pelayo
"Isa" is not Jesus
Was He [Jesus] raised from the dead? -
Not according to Islam
Is He the Son of God?
Not according to Islam!
by the mouth of one lone accuser - against the mouths of 7 actual eye-witnesses
How about that?
. Also this speaks about the sacraments of Easter for those coming into my church, most important of the three that night, baptism.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106
For the Jews or for the Christians?
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. not Jerusalem
Hey folks - - I didn't write this stuff
I just happen to believe in it
The Jews broke their covenant.
The Christians didn't even have a covenant to break:
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles [possible Christians] which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing [[[the physical laws of Moses - looK it up for yourselves}, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
The Believing Jews are worthy of baptism - the Christians are not:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.
I don't have a problem with these truths....and I'm not a Jew
Old Atlantic - probably.
Doc Bull- And 9.5 doesn't affect 90% of the US population?
I'm sure that is reassuring to the 10% of the 300 million that are targets.
And Mohammad said Fight until ALL follow the way of Allah and his messenger.
That means everybody, always.
---
Britain shuts the door on new wave of migrants
by Gaby Hinsliff
Political Editor
THE GOVERNMENT is to abandon its ‘open-door’ policy to eastern Europe by restricting the inflow of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants when their countries join the European Union in January.
In a dramatic U-turn that has been attacked as a sop to the anti-immigration lobby, John Reid, the Home Secretary, will unveil plans to prevent thousands of people from Romania and Bulgaria coming to Britain to work. His move comes after sustained criticism that Polish immigrants are entering the country in unsustainable numbers.
The move is in stark contrast to the treatment of other new EU countries, including Poland, to which the UK allowed unlimited access when they joined in 2004. It also reflects political fears about the impact of immigration on working-class Britons.
Reid’s plans have been drawn up despite furious opposition from Romanian community leaders, who have complained to Tony Blair of a ‘denigrating campaign’ against them in a leaked letter obtained by The Observer .
Senior Foreign Office officials are said to be concerned that the move is a backward step for EU enlargement, but Downing Street is said to favour Reid’s view that restrictions are necessary to prevent a political backlash. ‘The Home Office has made pretty clear its thinking that there needs to be restrictions,’ said a senior Whitehall source.
---
Are Romanians and Bulgarians muslims?
Jihad is the struggle to force non-Muslims to accept the imposition of Shari'a norms, to accommodate themselves to Muslim rituals and to accept that eventually Muslims, though representative of a small percentage of the population, will change the political and cultural will of the majority of the United States in their favor.
That's jihad.
Posted by: Eleanor
Eleanor - the reason that sooooo many are not getting the big picture here is this:
They've not educated themselves as just what Shari laws involve.
There are many college professors who believe themselves to be wise in this area
It's sickening to hear such self-congradulatory presumptions Islam isn't running amuck in the USA because it's so inclusive.
I dare such a person to wear a Mohammed T-shirt in a Dearborn Muslim area or speak of Mohammed's crimes on such a street with a bull horn. Islam is what it is -- the enemy to all things American and Western...always has been.
Till the Koran is changed nothing is changed -- Tell the Muslim-citizens in the USA their Koran must be edited to allow 'better inclusion' and see what happens to the behavior of these 'fine Americans'.
If the Muslims in America "weren't isolated growing up...(and) were part of the culture," how come we have no American Islamic "moderate" groups denouncing terrorism as inflicted by the different Muslim organizations? Smoke and mirrors, folks.
When I was a kid growing up in the 60's and 70's I don't remember seeing any woman in a hefty bag, EVER. I remember Hare Krishna in their peach colored sarongs. I remember driving up Coast Highway from Dana Point to Newport Beach and counting over 200 hippies one day. I remember nuns with floor length habits and marines with very short haircuts, who a babysitter of ours used to take us to see at the servicemen's center downtown, whose favorite meal was a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with a glass of Kool-Aid. (They were that young.) What I don't remember was seeing anyone of the Islamist persuasion. That's because Muslims, if there were any in my hometown, didn't advertise that they were Muslims. And that is probably because back in the mid-1960's anyone coming to America from another country seemed glad to be here. No they've gotten very bold because our leaders who are supposed to protect us have betrayed us by foisting political correctness upon our culture and our society, even going so far as to eradicate the Christian principles our country was founded on, as Beth refers to above, and FORCING our children in the public school system to practice the BS that is Islam.
It boggles the mind that any woman from a Middle Eastern country who probably grew up seeing the atrocities that we see articles of here could escape to America and then work to bring those atrocities here. It makes no sense. But I believe they are working to bring it here, everyday.
Till the Koran is changed nothing is changed -- Tell the Muslim-citizens in the USA their Koran must be edited to allow 'better inclusion' and see what happens to the behavior of these 'fine Americans'.
Posted by: Court1
Court1 - Can you add an 11th commandment to the ten?
Serious question
When I was a kid growing up in the 60's and 70's I don't remember seeing any woman in a hefty bag, EVER.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
She looked back
What exactly should any of us expect - after our young are fed the teachings of the Koran?
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
And know this: The mosques are using this law - "freedom of religion" - as they work feverishly to plant the teachings of beheadings, gang rape, crucifixions, the cutting off of hands and feet and treason
ALL of us - are going to reap - what is being sown
Pelayo,
Your post is somewhat correct, and somewhat wrong..
Yes, the Qur'an does in fact say that Jesus did not die on the cross (Sura iv:157) but, you need to understand the theology behind that statement:
The Docatae held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his Crucifixion was only apparent, not real [because He had a Phantom body]... The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstanes which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies; that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters exist, they are all vain; Since the Qur'an admits that He WAS taken up to God:
Sura iv:158 - "Nay, God raised Him up Unto Himself; and God Is Exalted in Power, Wise;---"
I thank you for your link to a website with the Qur'an posted on it, but I have my own copy, which was published in 1946 by the American International Publishing Company, Washington D.C - Translation and footnotes by Abdullah Yusuf Alli - Who is considered one of the best Theologians in Scholastic circles...
It may be a slow way for me to research the Qur'an, but I find that I don't make the mistake of getting things out of context when it is all right there and commented by a serious Theologian Scholar...
Now, as for Jesus hardly being mentioned in the Qur'an, you must have missed a few verses. Here is what my copy of the Qur'an has in its Index:
-Jesus, a righteous prophet, vi:85
-birth iii:45-47; xix:22-23
-apostle to Israel, iii:49-51
-disciples, iii:52-53; v:114-118
-taken up, iii:55-58; iv:157-159
-like Adam, iii:59
-not crucified, iv:157
-like an Apostle, iv:171; v:78; xliii:59, 63-64
-not God, v:19,75
-sent with Gospel, v:49
-not son of God, ix:30
-Message and miracles, v:113; xix:30-33
-prays for Table of viands, v:117
-taught no false worship, v:119-121
-disciples declare themselves Muslims, v:114
-mission limited, n:1861 to xiii:38
-followers have compassion and mercy, lvii:27
-disciples as God's helpers, lxi:14
-as a Sign, xxiii:50; xliii:61
-prophesied Ahmad, lxi:6
So, in conclusion, while I do not agree with the way the Qur'an portrays Jesus to be less than He was, there ARE numerous references to Jesus!!!
That is why, once a Muslim begins to understand who Christ really is, they tend to become excellent Christians.
If those references were not in the Qur'an, I don't think I would be able to lead as many Muslims to Christ as I have.
Thank you,
P.S. - Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I just can't cut and paste this stuff out of my copy of the Qur'an without getting the glue all over the screen! LOL
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Beth,
Read my above post...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
That is why, once a Muslim begins to understand who Christ really is, they tend to become excellent Christians.
If those references were not in the Qur'an, I don't think I would be able to lead as many Muslims to Christ as I have.
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog
This is VERY VERY HARD - more than words can say - [this I know] but....
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
It is either beheadings for the infidels - or it is not
Which is it for you Bulldog?
Beth asks:
Court1 - Can you add an 11th commandment to the ten?
Serious question
My lack of interest in editing the Bible is hardly germane to observations Muslims cannot assimilate into the USA without serious confrontations
Serious question Beth: what are you 'preaching' in reference to what I said?
Beth,
Plain and simple, NO.
If you read James 3:10-11 KJV -
"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"
James is talking about restraint in vulgar cursings.
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Posted by: Court1
what are you 'preaching' in reference to what I said?
I'm not a preacher. I'm a low-life sinner - no lie.
If you're looking to me to teach you [witjout the Scriptures] you're in BIG TROUBLE!
One thing that this dummy has come to realize:
you CAN NOT touch the Koran - without having your life put on the line
James is talking about restraint in vulgar cursings.
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog
Ok Doctor Bulldog - then this question is valid - coming fom one human to another:
Is it ok to crucify any human who does not agree with you? And I mean literally ''''crucify''''
Answer that
"Radical Islam finds US 'sterile ground': Home-grown terror cells are largely missing in action, a contrast to Europe's situation," by Alexandra Marks in The Christian Science Monitor, with thanks to Mackie:
I just got home and wanted to see how the thread was coming on.. A bit eavy on the Bible thumping so I'll revisit some of the others instead..
One thing that I missed earlier just caught my eye. The press organ the article appeared in is the - DRRRRRUM RRRROLLLL........
Christian Science Monitor
The Author's name is Alexandra Marks. Let me ask, Alex Babe.. did you used to spell your last name with an "X" at the end perhaps?
Beth,
I think that we Christains can do our part to educate the, "infidels" on the love of Christ. This is our charge as Christians in the war on terror. Violence and hate coming from Christians will only make them stronger.
The U.S. already has a Military to "Put the fear of God" in them. That is the Military's job!
Our job is to support our Military and to spread the Gospel of Christ.
(I don't think I need to quote you the Great Commission from Matthew 28:19-20)
But, I'm all for beheading a few terrorists that kill indescriminately...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog
I'm all for beheading a few terrorists that kill indescriminately
And you call yourself a Christian?
Don't you know? - that Words were given unto us that have the power to pull down ANY stronghold?
And that without having to cut off heads?
And you say you are a '''''Christian''''''?????
What exactly could you offer on the word "love" with the statements that you offer - in the name of Christianity?
SHEEEEEEEEEEEEZE
I am not optimistic about Muslim assimilation in the US. The pressure that used to exist for immigrants to assimilate just doesn't exist any more. I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and see lots of Muslim women wearing the hijab in public, and I seem to see more of them every day - few years ago, I never saw women in the hijab. IMHO, the only reason we don't see Jihadist activities in the US is because Muslims have not reached the critical mass, as has happened in several European countries, where they start "flexing their muscles" and demand special rights. At the same time, they have become a serious nuisance in several US cities, as mentioned above, like Dearborn.
you CAN NOT touch the Koran - without having your life put on the line
___
I'm still a bit vague on where you are coming from, Beth or who you are calling a dummy -- I have no intention of slogging through the previous posts.
But, it's clear we do agree on that one point.
They'd fight tooth and nail any attempt to bring it into accord with US law.
The Koran is full of text that might rightly be considered an incitement for a follower to break US laws..even commit hate crimes for example, as against Jews -- or delivered by a mullah at a specific time in reference to a specific event, being sedition.
Understanding the rules of abrogation with the Koran(that Muslims routinely lie about) would also give prosecutors foundation to prosecute under incitement rules in many states.
Be that as it may, laws need to made to specifically target Islam's influx and spread -- even if it means a special amendment to the Constitution.
Beth,
Hahaha,
My statement was meant in a humorous tone. I never said that I would do it. I believe in the Death Penalty - as long as it is justified by the Court of Law.
It is supported in the Bible, and Jesus never said anything about the Death Penalty being wrong! Even while he was being marched to the Cross...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Posted by: Court1
The difference between you and me Court1 - is this:
ALL who are readig these post? - are perfectly clear as to where I stand - and where you stand.
Islam SUCKS! BIG TIME!
That's where I stand.
Always have - always will
Any questions?
[Oh please - Do ask]
Beheaings, cucifying someone JUST because they don't believe as you do, gang rape [very sick indeed - that is - as far as I'm [a low-life sinner} is concerned] and Treason.
Treason is theft. Not in its highest form 'mind you'
No - treason is to take that which does not belong to you.
It's called theft. Even in the 'modern' day
Beth :
Islam SUCKS! BIG TIME!
That's where I stand
___
Court1:
Islam SUCKS! BIG TIME!
That's where I stand
...pretty much in agreement on that.
"In mosques in America, it's fairly common for imams to preach assimilation, says Mr. Zogby."
If that is true, then it should be easy to find written or recorded examples of such preaching. Anyone have any? Or does "assimilation" mean something different for Mr. Zogby, than for myself, and many other readers of JW/DW?
" 'The success of ... Saudi-inspired religious zealotry in Europe was in large part because the Saudis put up the money to build mosques and pay for imams,' says Ian Cuthbertson" [but that doesn't happen in the US, he implies]
My experience with a university muslim student association (MSA) is that assimilation is not encouraged by invited speakers. On the contrary they demonstrate, in Cuthbertson's own words, "Saudi-inspired religious zealotry". Those MSA's are funded by the sauds:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7395
or do an internet search for: MSA funding Saudi etc.
geez Beth you got some serious anger issues, you don't happen to attend Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan. do ya ? You come off like you do.
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
Funding from SA or other oil rich Islamic lands is enormous -- and most those MSA's and web sites are funded by the colleges or universities...with USA government funding and approval.
It's a crime.
The success of ... Saudi-inspired religious zealotry in Europe was in large part because the Saudis put up the money to build mosques and pay for imams
Posted by: del
Here is the Truth that they're not getting Del:
Islam preaches beheadings, gang rape, cucifixions, the cutting off of hands and feet, and Treason - which is theft - ALL violations of the New Testament.
It is a Truth - that we will surely reap - that which is being sown by the mosques?
It has been said - "God has a sense of humor"
What part of these truths are the people not getting?
Does God have the right to laugh?
At this point - I'd have to day - He does
bondservant,
She's just trolling... I like to give her a bone to chew on every once in a while...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
geez Beth you got some serious anger issues, you don't happen to attend Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan. do ya ? You come off like you do.
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
Posted by: bondservant
Not angry enough to cut your head off - just because you don't agree with me - as 'allah' does teach his Muslims to do
want those commands?
Anger at the Islamic infestation and attack upon our way of life is justified.
It's particularly called for when our own governmetn is in collusion with Islam's flood into our country -- some 40,000 last year were made 'citizens'.
To answer the obvious curiousity?
I have never belonged to any group. Nver did. Never will.
Not that that fact any thing to do with the truth - - - right?
Hey folks - I didn't write this stuff.
I'm just a low-life sinner - who happens to see some merrit in it - like the prophecy about Pakestine?
Doctor Bulldog,
A few responses to your post at October 23, 2006 09:19 PM
You state:
Approximately half the world’s population at present is neither Muslim, Christian, nor Jew. In particular, I doubt that Hindus would be pleased with your blasé statement. They suffered greatly as a direct consequence of the implementation of 9:5 over the centuries by later imperialist followers of Mohammad’s example.
You state:
Verse 9:29 is talking about the People of the Scripture (Christians, Jews, and possibly Zoroastrians). The historical context relevant to 9:29 is the expedition that ended up in Tabuk, where the Muslims imposed an early form of dhimmitude on the Christians there.
9:29 (Pickthall): “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by his messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay tribute readily, being brought low.”
I’ve made some critical notes and cited some sources re Islam’s treatment of Christians and Jews here
Ibn Kathir’s authoritative commentary (tafsir) on the Koran can be found here
Here is his tafsir of verse 9:29:
“The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah
Allah said,
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah's Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad's advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah's statement,
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.”
"Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Allah said,
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,
(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,
(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'"
The tafsirs of the Jalalayn and of Ibn Abbas can be found here
Al-Jalalayn 9:29.
"Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, for, otherwise, they would have believed in the Prophet (s), and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, such as wine, nor do they practise the religion of truth, the firm one, the one that abrogated other religions, namely, the religion of Islam - from among of those who (min, 'from', explains [the previous] alladhīna, 'those who') have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians, until they pay the jizya tribute, the annual tax imposed them, readily ('an yadin is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning, 'compliantly', or 'by their own hands', not delegating it [to others to pay]), being subdued, [being made] submissive and compliant to the authority of Islam."
Ibn Abbas, 9:29.
"(Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians(as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day) nor in the bliss of Paradise, (and forbid not) in the Torah (that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth) do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah’s divine Oneness, (until they pay the tribute readily) standing: from hand to hand, (being brought low) abased."
The understanding of the verse in Islamic law, exemplified in the Shafi’I manual of figh, can be read here
Result 37 from 64
The Reliance of the Traveller. Version 1.06 - By Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al-Misri
BOOK O: JUSTICE >> Chapter O-9.0: Jihad
”O-9.8: The Objectives of Jihad
The caliph (o-25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o-11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),
the time and place for which is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus' descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace), which is the divinely revealed law of Muhammad. The coming of Jesus does not entail a separate divinely revealed law, for he will rule by the law of Muhammad. As for the Prophet's saying (Allah bless him and give him peace),
"I am the last, there will be no prophet after me,"
this does not contradict the final coming of Jesus (upon whom be peace), since he will not rule according to the Evangel, but as a follower of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) ).”
Emphasis added.
Hey doctor Bulldog...
Upon what Holy Spiritual Authority do Muslims murder and be murdered for - in the name of Palesrine?
ANSWER THAT ONE - IF YOU CAN
But I suspect - you can not.
Here you go - the perfect forum - answer - if you can.
Shame on you so called ''''Dr''''' Bulldog
Without your allah to confirm the name Palestine - you lose
bottom line
Beth,
I'm not following your train of thought...
Are you asking me to DEFEND killing???
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
but as a follower of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) ).”
Emphasis added.
Posted by: Archimedes
Sorry - but I can not see a preacher of murderers [beheaders] as being wise.
Treating ALL others you yourself would like to be treated
now - that is wise
Happy Eid al-Fitr!!!
Ramadan is over, and NO al-Qaeda attack
Eid al-Fitr B.S. from about.com
During the month of Ramadan, Muslims observe a strict fast and participate in pious activities such as charitable giving and peace-making. It is a time of intense spiritual renewal for those who observe it. At the end of Ramadan, Muslims throughout the world observe a joyous three-day celebration called Eid al-Fitr (the Festival of Fast-Breaking).
A. Eid al-Fitr falls on the first day of Shawwal, the month which follows Ramadan in the Islamic calendar. It is a time to give in charity to those in need, and celebrate with family and friends the completion of a month of blessings and joy.
Before the day of Eid, during the last few days of Ramadan, each Muslim family gives a determined amount as a donation to the poor. This donation is of actual food -- rice, barley, dates, rice, etc. -- to ensure that the needy can have a holiday meal and participate in the celebration. This donation is known as sadaqah al-fitr (charity of fast-breaking).
On the day of Eid, Muslims gather early in the morning in outdoor locations or mosques to perform the Eid prayer. This consists of a sermon followed by a short congregational prayer.
After the Eid prayer, Muslims usually scatter to visit various family and friends, give gifts (especially to children), and make phone calls to distant relatives to give well-wishes for the holiday. These activities traditionally continue for three days. In most Muslim countries, the entire 3-day period is an official government/school holiday.
Beth,
I'm not following your train of thought...
Are you asking me to DEFEND killing???
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Open up mouth - insert foot
The tree is known by his fruit
Dr Bulldog
Is it really that complicated?
The god who forgot to mention Palestine who preaches vicious murder - compared to the God Who did not forget to mention Palestine - Who preaches Peace? - True Peace for all?
Don't act like it is me - who is missing something here.
This thread is getting mighty off-topic. What started as a tangent on Qur'anic citations has degenerated into sniping over personal piety.
Excessive postings within a thread are discouraged; just as one would not monopolize a conversation in person, one should not do so in a text-based setting for discussion. Especially when going off topic.
Extended copied and pasted texts are also frowned upon in this setting, as are attempts at proselytizing, including the pasting of extended passages of one's scriptures to that end. This site does not profess a religious affiliation, because the threat of jihad against unbelievers and the West in general transcends the particulars of denomination or religious observance.
Please remain on-topic.
Beth -
Please simplify your comments. No one can understand what you're saying because you are all over the place!
This thread is getting mighty off-topic. What started as a tangent on Qur'anic citations has degenerated into sniping over personal piety.
I didn't write the facts. Neither did you.
Peoples lives are on the line here.
Or doesn;t that matter to you MarisolJW?
That's that problem with too many folks like you:
you don't have a real concept of what is at stake....
less you are liar -0 like so many others
Bottom line:
If you teach the young to behead - then behad is what they'll do.
What part od that truth MarisolJW - did you miss?
Marisol,
Sorry for my extended paste-ups.
ANSWER THAT ONE - IF YOU CAN
But I suspect - you can not.
Here you go - the perfect forum - answer - if you can.
Posted by: Beth
Beth - I think the Good Dr. isn't interested in you. Hell hath no greater fury, I know, but let's get on with it please.
Beth -
Please simplify your comments. No one can understand what you're saying because you are all over the place!
Posted by: champ
REALLY?????
Is this question too hard for you Champ?....
Upon what Holy Spiritual Authority does Islam demand that Palestine be establisheda?
Please give that answer....as I'm not a Jew [no lie] who REALLy like an honest answer.
I'm a Christian
Uh Beth -- you should probably know that Marisol is one of the directors at Jihad Watch -- so please show a little respect.
(please forgive her, Marisol, she didn't know)
I think we need to find out what causes greater numbers of American Muslims to be Westernized and secularized, bottle it and sell it to them.
I don't care where you caome from!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beheading another JUST becuase they don't believe as you do - and way more importantly - teaching children to do the same - taught in the Koran - is against everything I live for.
Go ahead and kill me.
I'll Die with pride
Thank you very much - for alowing me to say so here
Geeeze
There is no such trhing as 'moderate ialam'
When will you non-Mulsim folks the big picture here?
It ain't pretty
In fact - it's about as ugly as ugly gets
Don't know if you truly understand what ugly is
Picture your whole family of females beinf raped
gang raped
funny - isn't it? NOT
The reason for the difference is that American Moslems [sic] actually have jobs. True, their income is supplemented with a panapoly of gubmint monthly checks, that prop them up into the lower reaches of the American middle class with a total absence of struggle, effort, and risk taking.
This is no reason for self-congratulation. It's reverse discrimination in the form of a hangman's noose; one that is already being fitted around our necks by the likes of Tim Russert, Nancy Pelosi, Hugh Hewitt, and Sean Hannity.
Let's just vote Robin Williams for PRESIDENT !!!!
http://by121fd.bay121.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg?msg=11A2B3FB-33BC-4F0C-8D15-5A7A05D2DB44&start=0&len=70999&imgsafe=y&curmbox=00000000%2d0000%2d0000%2d0000%2d000000000001&a=f130117306efd2e066789f77313ad0d7b6ae25d64f45ae2b5c3dde18bcb33d19
......CaptAmerica
per capita we've had even GREATER jihadist activity than Europe. You can't discount 9/11 and even the attempt on the WTC in 93, the Eqyptian who killed 6 people on top of the Empire State bldg, The other Eqyptian who killed Meir Kahane, the 2 or 3 pulblicly known of attempts at vehicular jihad... The aggressive treatment of Jewish students at major universities and colleges around the country. The shooting at the El Al terminal in LA.. and WE CANNOT LEAVE OUT the many attempts at jihad which were thwarted, such as the bridge and tunnel bomb plot in NYC, the millenium plot against 12 airliners going from LA to SE Asia. The two jihadist snipers a couple years ago would certainly quyalify as jihadist activity afik. Then there are I am sure countless plots that were thwarted in secret.
They may be smaller here in numbers.. and they get into better schools here - which I do NOT think is such a good idea - they have a way of influencing the faculty and other mushbrained students. Their jihadist activity is certainly no less vicious and deadly than it's been in Europe so far. Their infiltration into our educational system and even into the press corps [see the article in the CSM that spawned this threat].
The MSM are cast in the role of providing aid and comfort to the jihadists.. and OUR job is to UNCOVER their complicity and their DUPLICITY. How do we know how far they've infiltrated outr military when our OWN commander-in-chief sits down with them for Ramada Inn and celebrates their holidays on the White House website??!!
They certainly are making inroads in into our prison systems and they have imams both in our aremed forces and the prison system. Paid for by the taxpayers btw.
They have even succeeded in getting the SUPREME COURT to vote them rights as civilians in an American court of Law. They get fancy treatment at Camp Gitmo..
Would this have happened in ANY OTHER WAR I ASK YOU??!!!!
We all know the answer. The conclusion is clear. Our own government REFUSES to fight the War which the terrorists have started.
It's particularly called for when our own governmetn is in collusion with Islam's flood into our country -- some 40,000 last year were made 'citizens'.
Posted by: Court1
There you have it. Case in point! We all need to get off this forum right now and start makin' babies and outbreed these mongrels and hyenas.
Champ -- News Editor, to be specific. I don't always sign off as such in my postings, sometimes because I forget it may not be obvious, or I figure the "JW" attached to my username is understood as denoting a staff capacity.
But I'm reminded in this mixup of what a teacher in a computer class once told my class about keeping things user-friendly, because we never knew who might end up on the receiving end (This was before the "Blue Screen of Death").
"per capita we've had even GREATER jihadist activity"
posted above
I think the point of the article is homegrown cells.
From Hugh's post:
First, smaller proportion of Muslims
Second, more believing Christians, and self-identifying Jews
Third, lower levels of anti-semitism and anti-Americanism
Fourth, fewer entitlements
Fifth, more non-Muslim refugees from Muslim lands
Sixth, larger numbers of infidels learning about Islam
Seventh, biding time
These points seem to relate to perceived offensive power (1,7), perceived ideological defensive power (2,6), da'wa hindrances (3,5,6), and solvency (4).
Could it be what the interviewees are telling us? That they have learned to view religion as personal and that assimilation is more acceptible? Or is it that America is a huge difficult to occupy land mass with citizens armed to the teeth who generally believe in their values and will defend them?
Which (or whatever else) is it, and how do we get more of it?
The MSM are cast in the role of providing aid and comfort to the jihadists.. and OUR job is to UNCOVER their complicity and their DUPLICITY. How do we know how far they've infiltrated outr military when our OWN commander-in-chief sits down with them for Ramada Inn and celebrates their holidays on the White House website??!! .........
......We all know the answer. The conclusion is clear. Our own government REFUSES to fight the War which the terrorists have started.
Posted by: germaninamerica
You know that we're ALL in trouble when the leaders that we voted for - call the followers of the beheader ''''''Peace''''''
You know this. I can tell by your posts.
You're not alone
To say that Islam is a religion of peace is to spout the greatest swear word - - - ever spoken
Beth,
First off, I am a theoretical physicist, with a Phd. in Theology and Physics.
What are your credentials???
Did you even wonder about the "DOCTOR" in the name Doctor Bulldog!!!
So, with my credentials out and on the table, let us begin:
in re Sura 9:29,
You are still quoting out of context... I pointed out that to understand WHO is being being talked about in Sura 9:29 as those "who believe not," you need to read and understand Sura 9:28:
"Ye who believe! Truly The PAGANS are unclean; So let them not After this year of theirs Approach the Sacre Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, Soon will (Allah) enrich you, If He wills, out of His bounty, For (ALLAH) is All-Knowing, All-Wise."
- A. Yusuf Ali translation - 1946
Again, as in my original Posting on this, the Qur'an is talking about Pagans/Idolators - depending on the translation used, just as the KJV Bible has slightly different interpetations of scripture as compared to the NLV, or a host of others. But, all in all, the MEANING is the SAME.
The reference that you cited for Sura 9:29:
http://www.muhaddith.org/
has wrongly ADDED Jews and Christians to it. Sura 9:29 in its untouched form DOES NOT SAY, "Jews and Christians" in that verse!!!
That is why I use a highly renowned, Academic English Translation of the Qur'an from 1946!!! - It is closer to the source document. And, as such, is not given to bias in the translation...
Like I said, hermeneutics is VERY important when studying all Scripture. Context. Context. Context...
ITEM 2: You cannot Mix apples and oranges. I said something to the effect that 90% of the people in the United States are (or at least, profess to be) Christian, yet, you make a feeble attempt to mix in WORLD statistics in order to muddy the water... I was very clear in differentiating my apples from your oranges...
Now, I thank you for those great comments from other websites regarding their interpetations of what they think, or have been told what the Qur'an is saying, but all, except for one site you provide a link to, are not even close to being thought of as a serious Theological site...
You provided me with references garnered from:
http://islam-watch.org
--- They never have professed to be a Scholarly Theological Website! They are there to inform others of the corruption which has occurred, using Islam as tool to control the masses. So, it cannot be used in a serious Theological debate concerning a disputed verse in the Qur'an.
The next reference you provided me with was:
http://www.muhaddith.org/
--- again, this is not an Academic site as they have added, "Jews and Christians" to Sura 9:29,
The original source material (in Arabic) does not mention Jews, or Christians in this passage!!!
So I am VERY suspicious of their motives... AND, because they have been outright caught adding to the original text, we cannot trust anything that this site says. And, as an added note, I am reporting them to Homeland Security!!!
The Final Site that you provided me with was:
http://www.altafsir.com
---THIS IS THE ONLY TRULY ACADEMIC SITE YOU HAVE LISTED.
And, As such, I would like to point you to Sura 9:28 on their site:
http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=9&Ayah=28&Language=2&TranslationBook=3
This is from YOUR source material.
So, are you going to deny what it says???
You're a bright person, so, perhaps I can put this in perspective.
If Hitler gathered a bunch of passages from the Bible to justify Killing the Jews, then compiled them together in a badly translated manner, and out of context, and then professed that he (Hitler) spoke for all Theologians and that God wants the Jews killed... Don't you think you would be a little upset???
I never want that to happen. So, I believe in being fair about what the Qur'an and the Bible really says...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Beth -
"No" to your first question, and "None" to your second.
Doctor Bulldog,
Actually, you didn't understand Qur'an 9:29 exactly correctly:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book..."
First of all, the verse identifies those against whom Muslims are to fight as those "who do not believe in Allah": Christians and Jews are certainly among those who do not believe in Allah (nor do they believe in the Last Days in the "correct" way, i.e., the Islamic way).
The verse goes on to identify the objects of Muslim violence as those who do not prohibit what Allah and Mohammed prohibit: obviously, Christians and Jews are among those who do not follow the haram regulations of Muslims in entirety (and entirety is required).
Next, the verse identifies those against whom Muslims are to fight as those who do not "follow the religion of truth": well, the "religion of truth" is obviously Islam, and obviously, Christians and Jews are among those who do not follow Islam.
Finally, the verse the verse identifies those against whom Muslims are to fight as those "who have been given the Book..." (Arabic: alkitaba) which is the smoking gun that puts your Ph.D., already full of holes from the above arguments, out of its misery, good doctor.
P.S.: "The Book" (alkitaba) referred to above, of course, denotes the Judaeo-Christian scriptures, which makes them "People of the Book" in Islam.
Remote Control,
Thanks for the info.
You are correct saying, "alkitaba", it means the book. But, I am merely pointing out that the verse before it is talking about Pagans and as such, cannot be ruled out as the subject of Sura 9:29.
I am reading the Arabic version that is right here alongside my English version, and one very telling sign is that, forgive me, but my Arabic is a bit rusty, it says (again, this me translating the arabic, now, so hold off on the flames):
"Fight those who are unbelievers not in God nor the Day of Judgement..." "...religion of truth, of the people of the book unless they pay the taxation..."
Darnit!!! You may be on to something here...
It DOES say people of the book...
But, where does it define, "people of the book???"
Gee, I'm gonna' march right back to Caltech and get my money back!!!
LOL
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
P.S.
Sorry it took me so long to reply, like I said, my Arabic is a little rusty and I had to pull out my Arabic dictionary...
Doctor Bulldog,
You will have to do better than quote Yusuf Ali's notes on 9:28. You were making a claim about 9:29, and that's what I addressed. Even Yusuf Ali manages to include the phrase "People of the Book" in his translation of 9:29. The verse mentions the People of the Book (or people of the Scripture, those who have been given the scripture, etc.) explicitly, and that is chiefly Christians and Jews, as far as Islam is concerned. My sources cited above were Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas, and the Shafi'i manual of fiqh. Are you are claiming that your opinion about 9:29 is more valid than those of major Islamic scholars and indeed of Islamic jurisprudence?
I will quote a passage from an article by Andrew Bostom:
{"Writing over six decades ago, Professor Arthur Jeffery described the continuum from jihad, to what has become known as dhimmitude- the sociopolitical status of those indigenous non-Muslim peoples vanquished by jihad campaigns:
"...[Muhammad] did at least propose that all Arabia should be the land of Allah and planned vigorous measures to insure that within its borders the religion of Allah should be supreme. Communities of the People of the Book [Book= Bible; thus referring primarily to Jews and Christians] might remain within the land, but they must be in subjection….deriving their rights from the supreme Muslim community, not from any recognized rights of their own. As [they] did not accept this without struggle, it had to be forced on them, and that meant war. But war in the cause of Allah is Holy War, and so even in the Prophet’s lifetime we have the question of Jihad…" 2
Richard Bell, in his authoritative1937 translation and exegesis of the Qur’an 3 demonstrates that Sura (chapter) 9, "…is a chapter of war proclamations…", and verses Q.9.29 to Q.9-35, specifically,
"…form in effect a proclamation of war against Jews and Christians, and probably belong to the year IX [9-years after the Hijra] when an expedition was designed for the North which would involve war with Christians and possibly also with Jews."4 "} [Source]
Of course Mohammad led many battles against the Jews as well.
Remote Control,
I am becoming increasingly pliant in my earlier stance concerning Sura 9:29....
The "an yadin" I am seeing here in the Arabic text, means, "from the hand" - The hand being used here in the text as a type of power or authority which I think means something like, "in a gesture of submission"
So, there is an overtone of submission, but, as I look here in the footnotes regarding the Jizya, or compensation (or taxation), it says, "The Jizya was thus partly symbolic and partly a commutation for Military Service, but as the amount was insignificant and the exemptions numerous, its symbolic character pedominated."
Now, as to the beginning of Sura 9:29, it says, "Fight those who believe not."
The Arabic word used here for fight is, "Gazi" or "Ghazi" I think that's how to spell it, anyway it does not necessarily have to mean literally to fight someone.
Such as when Saint Paul said, "Fight the good fight of faith" in 1 Timothy 6:12
He is not talking about literally fighting someone. He is talking about resisting the evils of this world..
I say this, because if you continue reading Sura 9:29, right after, Fight those who believe not, it says,
"...Nor grasp (hold) that forbidden which hath been forbidden..."
Now, that implies an ideology, not a physical thing...
Therefore, Fight, in this instance might be referring to resisting an ideology, not a person...
What are your thoughts on that?
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Archimedes,
How can I argue with Archimedes???
LOL
Like I said to Remote control, I am becoming increasingly pliant on my previous stance on Sura 9:29.
My interpetation of Sura 9:29 is open to discussion, as Theologians hardly ever fully agree on anything!!!
Else, we wouldn't have so many commentaries on the Bible and the Quran. LOL
http:doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
P.S. - Archimedes,
I wasn't quoting the commentary on Sura 9:28...
Where did I say that???
If I said that, I must be REAL tired right now, as it is WAY past my bedtime..
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Doctor Bulldog,
I will say you are a good sport. For the record, you did cite 9:28 as context for 9:29, here though the Koranic verses are organized semi-randomly. At that juncture, 9:28 and 9:29 are not referring to the same subject matter.
Re "fight" in 9:29...the Arabic is Qatiloo, which refers to actual physical fighting, killing. Although the q-t-l words are in some contexts translated as "curse," that is not usually the case, and is not the case for 9:29. Thus if non-Muslims refused to pay the jizya, they were to be fought. This, too, is enshrined in Islamic law.
Remote Control and Archimedes,
I've waited for a response for about 20 minutes now, and haven't received one.
It was great hearing your perspectives on the subject at hand. Very rational and well thought out discussions.
Not to mention, very humbling...
I hope we can chat again, sometime, as I do miss rational, intelligent conversation ever since moving from California to the Midwest...
My wife is begging me to go to bed, so I'll sign off for the night.
Good night, and God bless you all.
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Archimedes,
Just saw your post at the last moment.
I will research my Arabic dictionary in the morning and get back with you.
God bless,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
So then, why don't these 'progressive' US Muslims protest against terrorism and against Bin Laden?
Hmmmmm
The majority of people would say to others
"..i do not agree with what you say but i will fight to the death for your right to say it"
Muslims certainly wouldn`t.
The difference lies also in the fact that, whereas America welcomes immigrants and encourages their assimilation, the Europeans generally do not. European policies actually encourage the Muslims to keep to themselves and resist assimilation.
Remote Control
Archimedes
Beth
First of all,
It was wrong of me to drag out my credentials and throw them on the table, during our discussion. It showed weak mindedness and superciliousness on my part... Please forgive me, as I am truly sorry about doing that - there is no excuse for my bad behavior.
Secondly,
After digging through my Arabic Dictionary, and an early morning phone call to one of my collegues at my old university, I am now absolutely convinced that you are correct about the interpretation of the Quran's Sura 9:29, and that I was wrong in my analysis of the disputed text...
Thank you all for illuminating me about my misinterpretation of the aforementioned verse.
I'm glad you were there to open my eyes to the truth about this verse.
If you had not cared enough to write back to me, I would still be wandering about in blissful ignorance, spouting out more sophistry...
Again, thank you for all your help. I really do mean that, sincerely.
P.S. - Go Cardinals!!!
p.p.s - just thought I'd give the Tiger fans a willing victim to jump on, here!! LOL
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Doctor Bulldog,
Admitting a mistake is a sign of good character, which you have shown. If only everyone could do the same. (BTW, I've been put through the correction process a few times myself here). I look forward to future exchanges.
The Great Archimedes,
I will be looking forward to future exchanges as well, my friend..
You see, we were all agreed that my theory was crazy! But, what we were divided on was if it were truly crazy enough to be true. I am now of the opinion that it was just not crazy enough to be true...
LOL
-- I kinda' paraphrased that from something Niels Bohr once said...
I've got to run for now.
Cheers!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Doctor Bulldog,
"I am merely pointing out that the verse before it is talking about Pagans and as such, cannot be ruled out as the subject of Sura 9:29."
Yes, but earlier, you were saying it was only about pagans and therefore excluded Jews and Christians. As usual, the Qur'an is more magnanimous with its animus, and embraces pagans along with Jews and Christians as holy & legitimate targets of Islamic violence for the good of the Absolute Truth of Allah.
P.S.: You can read the Qur'an online -- at the following link, you can read up to 5 different translations (all done by Muslims), and also you can click on a "transliteration" box which will show you the Arabic in English letters:
http://www.quranbrowser.org/
Doctor Bulldog,
As for the Jizya being "insignificant", I suggest you Google the word along with "jihad watch" or "andrew bostom" or "answering islam". On the Internet, there exist dozens of good articles about the Jizya and about the system of Dhimmitude under which People of the Book were placed -- a system that held those People of the Book under second-class status with humiliating restrictions; a system that should be abhorrent to any modern Westerner who values human rights and equal rights for all: a system that deserves to be condemned and outlawed, not sophistically defended, in the 21st century.
remote,
The problem a while back in finding the ten translations was apparently due to an "org" vs "com" confusion.
Somehow you had picked up the org site, whereas the link I had given was com.
Ten translations, with Arabic transliteration.
http://www.quranbrowser.com/
Beth wrote:
The Jews broke their covenant.
The Christians didn't even have a covenant to break:
I beg to differ, but Jesus said, "This cup is the new covenant [diathiki in Greek, translation of the Hebrew b'rit] in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20).
We are indeed covenanted together through the death of Christ, which we remember every time we take the Lord's Supper. Indeed, I personally know at least one Muslim who watched the Lord's Supper, asked what it was about, and was told that it was God having supper with his wife (after the snide Muslim remark "If God has a Son, what of a wife?"). He went away very, very thoughtful. i remain in prayer for the man.
Which leads to another point. A significant portion of Muslim emigrants from Islamic countries exit Islam. One reason is that when the Gospel of Christ is truly preached as the Gospel of peace with God and neighbor through the forgiveness of sins that we have in Christ, marvelous things happen. And there are enough ex-Muslims living in the USA, Britain, and other places to be counted if anyone cares to. Such people have also been instrumental in getting the Gospel back to places like Turkey and the Maghreb as well.
These are indeed perilous times, but there is a living and true God on whom we may call.
beth & Kepha,
Indeed, the kaini diathiki of Luke 22:20 is most often translated as "New Testament". I.e., beth: "covenant" = "testament"! I'd hestitate to say that Christians don't have a "new testament"!
Thanks Archimedes, the .com browser seems definitely better.
Not to add on to the several arguments that have gone on over whether 9:x refers to pagans or Judeo-Christians, but one thing I thought might be worth pointing out:
DoctorThis site is actually a project that Muslims used to put together what they consider their main texts. I discovered it some weeks ago while checking out what Islamic sites have to say on hadiths, given how some Muslims are too eager to understate their importance when arguing this topic.
I visited islamonline.net, which is a Muslim site, and googled their page for hadith. That brought me to this page:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/hadith/hadith.shtml
If you go there, you'll see the following links:
- The Sunnah Islamic Page
- Fiqh-us-Sunnah
- Sunnah.Com
- Hadith Encyclopedia
- Al-Muhaddith Hadith Search Engine
- The Sunnah-A Source of Civilization - By Dr. Yusuf al Qaradawi
- Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nector) Biography of the Noble Prophet (pbuh)
- Sunna Learning Center
- An Introduction to the Science of Hadith
- Partial Translation of Sunan Abo-Dawud
- Riyad-us-Saliheen
From the above, the al Muhadith search engine (it's nice to see what Muslims can do with all that time) allows one to see the texts that they consider important, and also search them for terms that one needs.I admire the spirit in which this debate has gone on. It looks like the main difference between you and others here is that all of us, being non-Muslims, are looking at how Muslims interpret these surahs, whereas you seem to be exploring what they really mean, and then using that to cause fitnah among your Muslim associates. Assuming that you've really succeeded in enticing Muslims out of Islam into Christianity, I do admire your work.
But note that the best, or at least the most expedient way to get these sources, is to mine Islamic sites - the ones Muslims go to online for their 'religious needs' - you won't be disappointed.
Muslims in the UK seemed more assimilated in the 60's & 70's than now. You never use to see a burka or any type of full head covering on the women or the pyjama type outfit on the men. It wasn't until the 80's that these items became familiar on the streets and then only in those areas where there were at least 30% muslims.
I'm sure if you ask people in other parts of Europe this will be true there. It is only when they have enough numbers that the muslims will retreat from the society of the lands to which they emigrate.
It's not only Muslims "biding their time" that explains the waning periods of Islamic extremism; there have been other factors in modern times that explain that waning, sociocultural factors involved with the relative deteriorating effects of Western secularism on Muslims -- and, concomitantly and diametrically, other factors contribute to waxing periods of Islamic extremism, and the concatenation of events since 911 are evidently an important factor (as were more complex and subtle processes beginning in the 1970s with Cold War jockeying in the Muslim world, the bloody Algerian rebellion leading to independence, stellar reassertion of Israeli strength & boldness, the Iranian revolution, new technology for Islamic ideologues, the spectacularly increasing wealth of Saudis, etc., to help explain the increase in Islamic extremism after the 1960s, where there had been an ostensible waning period before then).
In the halcyon days post-WWII, there really seemed to be a significant waning of Islamic extremism due to the effects of Western secularism and modernism; but those days are over now, in large part because of the concatenation of events since 911, which has galvanized most elements that had become dormant and/or enervated up to the 1970s, and which, even up to the millennium, were disparate and uncoordinated.
Remote Control
Infidel Pride,
Thank you both for the links you have provided me with.
I am becoming increasingy aware that I must abondon my previous notion of tangible textual study and ameliorate to the intangible world of the Internet...
Else, I fear, I will be left behind in the dust of my books...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Beth,
First off, I am a theoretical physicist, with a Phd. in Theology and Physics.
What are your credentials???
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog
None.
I didn't write the Koran - nor did I write the Bible.
Both existed long before I was born.
The New Testament teaches that "we will know the tree by its fruit"
I don't see countless name-changing groups in the name of Christianity blowing up scores of people, attacking school children - and providing videos of beheadings.
But I do see it daily - in the name of Islam.
I have spent my whole life trying to understand the Holy Scriptures.
I also spent 2 decades studying different Engish translations of the Koran - 6 to be precise. [they all preach the same]
It doesn't make me an expert on anything....but rather -just an individual who is able to present available facts - in understanding that the tree IS known by its fruit.
SEE} http://palestinename.com/frmouth.htm
I call it "Shocking" for those of us who find the teachings of beheadings, gang rape, the cutting off of hands and feet and crucifixions horrifying!
You can interpret what ever way you want Mr. Bulldog - and the new generation will STILL carry out the words of their 'allah'
...simply put - by one who has no credentials.
There is only one expert....
and He's in heaven
Beth wrote:
The Jews broke their covenant.
The Christians didn't even have a covenant to break:
I beg to differ
Posted by: Kepha
Kepha.....if the very Christians did not appear until Antioch [by the preaching of Paul - my very favorit person ever] then what can be said of those who John was baptizing?
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye [Christians - the believing Gentiles] - were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
"very FIRST Christians"
Act 11:26
covenant" = "testament"! I'd hestitate to say that Christians don't have a "new testament"!
Posted by: remote_control
I will agree with you remote_control
A Covenant with God - is a beautiful Blessing!
A Testament - is the Word of God - which without - I can't see any Beautiful Blessing
As a beloved relative would say ..."ya'll talk funny"...I will say - ya'll need to keep this fight on a level that a 12 year old can understand.
It's their future - that is at stake.