And shouted (what else?) "Death to Zionists." From Reuters, with thanks to Barbara:
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Dozens of protesters pelted the Danish embassy in Tehran with stones and petrol bombs on Tuesday after Danish television broadcast footage deemed insulting to the Muslim Prophet Mohammad, witnesses said.Denmark's state TV aired footage on Friday of a number of members of the youth wing of the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party (DPP) drawing cartoons in August mocking the Prophet. Iran condemned the broadcast.
Reuters witnesses said protesters hurled stones and petrol bombs into the embassy compound. The crowd chanted "Down with Zionists" and "God praise the party of God".
Riot police guarded the embassy and two fire trucks stood nearby. Firefighters extinguished a tyre which was set alight next to the embassy compound wall, the witnesses said.
Denmark's ambassador to Tehran was summoned to the Foreign Ministry on Monday to complain about the video clips, which follow cartoons published in the Danish press last year that sparked outrage in the Islamic world.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has condemned those who made such insults as "low life"....
Yes, not high-minded like attacking embassies.
Some 232 lawmakers from Iran's 290-seat parliament urged Ahmadinejad on Tuesday to cut Iran's trade ties with Denmark over the latest footage, the semi-official Mehr News Agency reported."The past attempts of the Danish government regarding this insult (to the Prophet) have been repeated, this time, by the visual media," Mehr reported.
"Since this is not tolerable, we call for cutting the economic ties to Denmark and if continued, cutting the political ties," the lawmakers said.
Ah, the religion of peace strikes again. Their actions so very much portray their words. lol
Killing Americans is unacceptable and I think we should cut ties with every Muslim nation immediately. Praise be upon the Danes! The more of this the world sees, the closer to the truth we get.
This does not happen in Iran, in this section of the city unless it has been ok'd.
This is verification from the goverment of Iran that this violence may proceed.
Once again the thugocracy of I'm A Nut Job makes its displeasure known in the usual peaceful manner. No explanation or apology is ever enough for these mental midgets. I guess the Danes were lucky in that their building wasn't overrun by "students"-yet.
As for Iran breaking ties with Denmark, I say good for Denmark. That'll give them a reason to kick out probable Iranian troublemakers.
This nonsense from the same regime that had company strength formations of teenaged Iranian boys trot ahead of its regular infantry to clear mine fields in the war with Saddam. Bloody-minded bastards!
how do you say "who wants to be ambassador to iran?" in danish?
Just a suggestion which I would ask you all to consider acting upon:
I think that the Danish economy may well need our support over the next few months. Can I appeal to you all to buy something, anything, Danish - according to your means to do so - at least once a week for the next few months.
It's the least we can do to show our solidarity, isn't it?
Dominic.
Cartoons again. aarrgghhh
Dominic I just bought Danish butter cookies the other day. A treat. Delicious! I'll buy more to give away. Will look for more Danish products.
By all means, support Denmark and go the next step: http://www.islamicfinder.org/ look up the muslim owned businesses near you and stop your support for them. This site only lists muslim owned businesses, There is no danger of mistaking a Christen who escaped an islamic hell hole and is attempting to make a better life.
pigtails not veils/
Ah! I'd forgotten the butter cookies! I was concentrating on the excellent bacon!
Good-bye waistline!
Dominic.
Ronin: i entered my zip code and it listed a business which I know for sure is not muslim-owned. As usual, these idiots like to exaggerate the extent of their presence in this country.
I'll bet the farm they were chanting "Death to the Jews" and Reuters simply made up a new reality which fits their agenda.
Yeah, religionists are some scary people.
Personally, I'm much more concerned about a fascist takeover here in the United States. It seems like people are so afraid of the muslims that it would be very easy for a corrupt administration to use that fear in order to strip us of the constitution, legalize torture, do away with habeas corpus and such like.
When religionists go on the rampage, it's a scary thing, but you can't let them deceive you into giving them the reigns. After all, they think Allah talks to them.
Dominic,
Denmark Exports Soaring
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22777&only
jeremiah,
How many Germans got habeas corpus petitions into federal court during WWII? You think we should give an advantage to those who disobey ALL the laws of war?
Personally, I'd be embarrassed to spout generic leftist talking points.
No, I think we should respect the laws of the land, laws that guarantee some tiny measure of protection from dictatorship. What else makes this country different from others?
If it continues to be prosecuted, this war's going to be going on for decades. What, specifically, will be worth fighting for if people like you continue to support things like torture of civilians?
Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be defending the current corrosion of the constitition that's happened in the last five years.
The European love affair with Islam is gradually falling apart:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/world/europe/11muslims.html
It makes me wonder...
Why can't I create a religion right now, which says that I as a male have an obligation to wear a mask that hides my face? I can also say that it is a sin against my religious beliefs for me to allow my fingerprints to be taken, and that I consider it sacrilege. I can also say that in my religion, it is my sacred duty to carry a gun at all times -- let's make it an automatic weapon.
Basically, I can construct a religion based on any rules I want, since there isn't any restriction on what can or cannot be stipulated as part of a religion, or made into a core requirement.
Sikhism evolved the requirement of carrying a knife, I can go one better by creating the requirement of carrying a ceramic knife or ceramic gun. Hey, it has to be made of the holy ceramic, which is my special sacred material in my religion. Or Kevlar-reinforced composite -- that's holy for me too.
Islam says women should wear the veil and men should be covered in a beard, so I can go one better and say that my religion requires me to wear a Ski-Mask. Hey, it's my holy right.
It's also against my religion to be photographed. Or fingerprinted. Or tape-recorded. Or to have my signature taken. Or my semen sample taken. Or my blood sample taken. Or my hair sample taken. Or my saliva sample taken.
It is also my sacred obligation to wear a long trenchcoat, like the kind worn by gunmen at Columbine. I must also be permitted the right to carry the holy narcotics with me, as they help me achieve communion with God.
They help to give me divine visions.
sanman
I embrace your religion
Forgot the smiley ;-)
Do you have an equivalent of the shehada?
This is just another example of the culture of terrorism and intolerance that fuels Islam. To them free speech is evil, free thought satanic. Such an obsolete viewpoint of human culture has no place in the 21st Century.
Yes we infidels need to show economic solidarity with the Danes. DANES AKBAR! DANES AKBAR! At the very lest you could go out and get some Royal Danks cookies at your local Wal-Mart.
Those ass holes who rant and rave about Islam being a religion of peace need to loge their protest immediately with the Iranian government.
Not to mention Osama Bin Laden and the Al Queda boys who sit around in caves all day in Pakistan watching gay porn. And of course running trains on that queer Gadsan boy from California. Osama will die of a heart attack one night while porking that bottom boy.
DANES AKBAR! DANES AKBAR!
----Nossy
Why did only 232 Iranian MPs urge Ahmadinejad to cut trade ties with Denmark? What did the rest 58 do, dissent?
Nostrodamus /
"Not to mention Osama Bin Laden and the Al Queda boys who sit around in caves all day in Pakistan watching gay porn. And of course running trains on that queer Gadsan boy from California. Osama will die of a heart attack one night while porking that bottom boy.
Oh, good grief! Here we go again. Just because you, as a heterosexual, don't like somebody is that any reason to decide that they must be gay and, thereby, insult all us gay people.
Has it not dawned on you that we have as much to lose as you do in the event of an islamic takeover - in fact, we could lose much, much more, our very lives in fact (and, in the most brutal manner possible) - or are you just so wedded to some sort of personal agenda that for you islam = bad = worse-than-bad = gay, because gay is the worst thing that you can think of. Well, think again. Islam is the worst thing that you can think of - so please stop equating we gays with islam.
We're all in this mess together. Islam is the enemy - not gay people.
By-the-way, when was the last time you saw gay people fly passenger planes into buildings, or bomb commuter trains in Bombay, or blow up tube trains on the London Underground, or attack Coptic Churches in Egypt, or terrorise Christians in Iraq. Do tell me. I would love to know.
How dare you equate 'gay' with 'islam'. In tens of thousands of years of human history gay people have taken all the crap that you people can throw at them and have hardly ever fought back in the way that we would be perfectly justified in doing. But really, this is the last straw. That you should equate us with the horrors of islam! That you should make some sort of spurious connection between we gay people and Osama bin Laden! Have you any idea just how insulting that is? No, I suppose you haven't. Then let me tell you. It is so insulting that if you were to be standing in front of me at this moment I am not entirely sure that I would be able to stop myself from acting like a rabid, barbarian moslem.
Honestly, instead of offending those of us who should be your allies how about trying just ever so slightly harder to get us onside?
With friends like you who in the hell needs enemies?
Dominic.
I just can't understand why there are no protests all over the world against Muslim violence. Every one should take to the streets and protest the beheadings and the horrible violence that they continue to use against all free people. Some things are worth fighting for folks LIKE FREEDOM. Every time you don't say what you want to say, you gave up your freedom to stand up for what is right. Cut all ties with all Muslim countries and boycott all Muslim businesses immediately. No money for anything at all. Publish all thier cartoons and all thier acts of violence where ever we can and put surveillance and microphones in the Mosques and have them all charges with treason and hate crimes. Make citizen arrests. Wear ski masks while shopping and say if they can we can too!. I am so amazed and frightened that no one is doing anything!
Take action folks now is the time.
OT
Does anyone have more information on the following story. Is this more food Jihad, but in Canada this time?
2 Paralyzed with Botulinum toxin in Carrot Juice.
http://xrl.us/botulinum
"Denmark's state TV aired footage on Friday of a number of members of the youth wing of the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party (DPP) drawing cartoons in August mocking the Prophet."
And the show was probably attempting to portray the youths as dangerous xenophobic bigots. But no matter to the EVEN MORE DANGEROUS murderous Islamic zealots in Tehran. They're on top of this horse and they're gonna ride it to hell.
I just cant help but laugh at the fact this was a leftist sting op to try and frame the DPP as Right wing extremists and now they are in hiding from the Islamic extremists.
ROFLMA 8-)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061010/ap_on_re_eu/denmark_prophet_drawings
Sanman, read your link about how Europe's center is finally doubting Islam can integrate with Western values. Thanks for that link, it's a morale builder.
Islam has become like a wicked witch of the west. It's remarkable how unsubtle its evil is, like something right out of a fairy tale or a myth or the Lord of the Rings. I guess we can thank Islam for that at any rate: maybe its mythic scale evil has reawakened a bit more awareness that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Horatio's nuts and bolts philosophy.
non-redneck, I also read your link, would like to buy Danish, but I already bought some Danish butter and cheese, neither of which I really use. I don't really drink beer either. Guess I could buy some legos. Suggestions?
Check out this painting which very cleverly illustrates concerns about how the rapidly growing Muslim population of Europe threatens to Islamize Europe within decades. You can see more of the same artist's images by clicking here. (You'll get a content warning, just forge ahead.)
"Personally, I'm much more concerned about a fascist takeover here in the United States."
I was just thinking today about why the liberal secular left is so complacent in the face of Islamic radicalism. After all, if Islam ever does become ascendant in the West then liberal/left/secular types will be under constant intimidation and attack.
I came to three conclusions:
1) They think all religion is crazy, and that Islam is no crazier or more violent than any other religion, especially Christianity for which they hold special hostility.
2) Many are self-haters in the sense that they've been brainwashed to despise their own Western culture/society/heritage. Anything is better than this hypocritical techno-industrial world-polluting and destroying souless juggernaut created by bigoted white Christian men (ah yes, the Patriarchy!). They're so indocrinated (yes, our fine Universities at work) to hate America and what it stands for (and stands against) and what its done in the past (e.g. slavery! as if it were something never before seen in the world) that they are filled with self-loathing for themselves, their country, their leaders, their history, etc. It's so poisonous and all-encompassing that ANY other way/culture/country etc is better, and the same withering critical judgment they focus on America is suddenly and completely suspended when they look elsewhere. Thus, 'sure Islam has its faults, like all religions, but its no worse than Christianity'.
3) Most important of all Regarding Islam: They don't believe it could ever come ascendant over the West, over them(!). So there's nothing to worry about and, by the way, what are you xenophobic haters at jihadwatch getting so worked up about?? Complacency is a wonderful luxury if you can afford it. Time will tell. Europe will not have this luxury for much longer....
p.s. I am not religious.
Oh and uh... one more thing about the muslims: I have no doubt about what they want. I think the countries of Europe are fools to even allow immigration from muslim countries. The United States is UNCONSCIONABLY STUPID to allow them to come here to train in subjects like microbiology.
The fact that we do that just boggles my mind. If I were president I'd probably cancel all visas from those countries. Sorry guys, go home and study in your own countries which typically have very high PHD rates per capita.
The Danes make a good vodka. I just used some to make blackberry cordial, which will be ready by Christmas.
Skol!
Anyone else notice that? Maybe there are some non-dhimmi types left at al-Reuters...
Dominic, I'm sorry that you had to put up with such homophobic crap such as that poster.
We need everyone in this fight; gays, women, everyone. Please don't let him put you off coming here and posting here.
Dominic, I'm sorry that you had to put up with such homophobic crap such as that poster.
We need everyone in this fight; gays, women, everyone. Please don't let him put you off coming here and posting here.
"Six clubbers have contracted bovine tuberculosis - one of them fatally - in an outbreak in Birmingham.
The six people who contracted the strain are thought to have all picked it up at a bar and nightclub.
The source of the outbreak is thought to have been a man who drank untreated, unpasteurised milk.
Those who were affected all had weakened immune systems from diseases such as diabetes or HIV. One woman died in the outbreak."
"We need everyone in this fight; gays, women, everyone. Please don't let him put you off coming here and posting here."
Voltaire: Much of the problem is that so many righties are exactly like that idiot. Their behavior is so distasteful that it drives away people who would otherwise be vehemently against jihadism.
I've been reading this blog for a while now. It's kind of nice to see one out there that feels the way I do about islam but isn't flaming fascist.
alexon, I more or less agree with your analysis of the quote by the trite lefty. He's no better than trite righties. Strange how that lefty's views sprout up almost everywhere, sort of like mold when a sufficiently dark, moist, airtight space is provided inside a stagnant mind.
I don't mind lefty or righty views -- I just wish the guy could have included a wee bit of originality along with his lowest common denominator cliches. Couldn't he have done just a little thinking before writing? Couldn't he have compared his statements to reality a bit more before setting them down for us?
He thinks America is on the verge of fascism. He thus shows himself like the princess who feels the pea under twelve matresses. She cannot bear to sleep so uncomfortably, on a mere 12 mattresses, so she has a tantrum that it's child abuse and worse than sleeping out of doors on sharp boulders on a freezing night! She'll die! And oh! she gets only 9 courses for dinner, she lives worse than a begger!! After all, in a true kingdom, the princess would have as many courses as she wanted, all night long, they would never stop!!! She's in danger of starving!!! She screeches that she is wasting away, though she's obese. That is what these trite lefties sound like when they idiotically say that America is about to go fascist. And the thing is, most of them, deep down, know they are full of it when they say the U.S. is near fascism. Just as the spoiled brat obese princess knows she is lying when she screeches that she is about to starve. But she is very angry at her father the king, and since she doesn't really have that much substantive to be angry about, she has to hugely exaggerate his misdeeds so she can justify her fury.
As I say, I'm not against all lefties, anymore than I'm against all righties, but I'm against the trite ones who show themselves utterly spoiled brats so absorbed by their anger at their parent nation that they lie about it freely and pretend it is about to go fascist and almost convince themselves, but haven't the foggiest idea what it would really be like to live in a fascist state, and do not know how good and cushy they have it. Such people should be made to live for a day or two in North Korea, or Saudi Arabia, then maybe they'd stop being such spoiled brats and realize what the real world is like. Eldridge Cleaver certainly woke up after his trip abroad. After that trip, he realized he loved America. Cleaver had the ability to learn, but the kind of people I'm talking about have been so spoiled their minds have become effete, used only to justify their own masturbatory emotions and resentments, minds with little real effective contact with the checks and balances of reality. What they need are some serious, life and death challenges of the sort that seriously punish people who fail to think in accord with facts. Then maybe they will drop their idle idiocies. The same goes for the nonsense about all religions being the same. All this shows is that the person in question is equally ignorant of all religions. He mistakes his equal ignorance of all as knowledge of the sameness of all. For me, showing him where the differences lie -- particularly between Islam and the other religions -- seems too tiresome at the moment, too embarrassingly tedious and obvious. He can find out for himself anyway, if he really cares to.
Great that the opposition to Islam is growing.
Personally I hope that Iran will cut trade ties with Denmark. No sane person will then be able to argue that Islam is truly interested in peace and coexistence with the non-muslim parts of the world.
Traeh: You've got a lot of anger there, dude. Get it all out, I can take it. Really heap on your hatred for the trite lefties, it's apparently eating you up inside.
Wow! Such anger because I said I support the constitution of the united states.
Jeremiah:
Good of you to take it so well. However, I was not angry about you supporting the constitution. Yes, that's good. What my post complains about is the trite notion that the U.S. is near fascism, and the trite notion that all religions are the same. I believe both statements are not only trite; they are also egregious falsehoods, as any sufficiently honest and thorough person will discover for himself if he checks. But I have been wrong before.
traeh,
Your analysis of the leftwing mindset is spot on. Cold, clear logic.
I suggest that everyone E-mail the Danish embassy in the U.S. with encouragement and support so they know they're not alone in their struggle with Islamic tyrany.
E-mail: wasamb@wasamb.um.dk
Those danes sure are gluttens for punishment.
Have all of the above bloggers forgotten already that while Ahmadinejad takes umbrage at cartoons mocking Mohammed, the obsessed Holocaust denier recently sponsored a cartoonists' contest mocking the memory of 6 million Jewish victims of Nazism with the announced intent of testing the limits of western tolerance, that was, by and large, pretty much ignored?
Actually, our Senate prances around as if they were aristocracy as does the House. They are both corrupt and owned by the oil-ticks. They are men of little substance and are ineffectual at defending the Constitution.
Our own elected officials are corrupt beyond repair. By oil. By muslim arabs. By islam. By their own evil clawing and grasping at power, position, and money.
That we elected them should shame us into action. What's worse is that each and every one of them swore on the Holy Bible that they would defend this nation. The most sacred oath is tossed aside as a mere formality as soon as these craven men stalk the streets of Washington, DC.
This is perhaps a contributing factor to the inexplicable selling out of our United States of America to the muslims and the communists. Our elected officials are owned. They are cowed like domestic animals. And they are willingly leading us all to the blood-soaked godless altar of allah.
This may apply to other free peoples.
sanman-
from your link
The idea is unthinkable to mainstream leaders, but many Muslims still fear that the day — or at least a debate on the topic — may be a terror attack away.
“I think the time will come,” said Amir Shafe, 34, a Pakistani who earns a good living selling clothes at a market in Antwerp. He deplores terrorism and said he himself did not sense hostility in Belgium. But he said, “We are now thinking of going back to our country, before that time comes.”
That is exactly what is wrong with immigration of muslims. The new country is never their country. Only the old country or the umma counts.
When push comes to shove, where will the indigenous move to? To get away? They have no where to go.
The anti-gay, anti-left, anti-right, anti-atheist and all the other 'anti' posts don't matter in the end. Only the anti-islam, anti-mohammad posts are really needed.
And as far as the fear of far right anti-immigration parties taking control -
Remember, you can always come back from the right, you can never come back from islam.
jeremiah
You were hit by a post full of truth, spiced with a little anger. Please read it over and over and don't dismiss it. Maybe the light will come on for you...most of us are hoping.
Great Post Traeh! I found your criticism of trite lefties admirably free of anger and hatred.
Not sure where jeremiah got that from. He says he can take the heat but it doesn't look that way.
Anyway, I too like a good argument wherever it comes from. I grew up in a liberal town with liberal parents and attended a liberal university. I might even say "some of my best friends are lefties" but that's not really true anymore. I got sick and tired of having leftist propaganda pushed at me all the time (no one ever mentions this, as if Christians are the only ones who prosletyze). So I cut free and went my own way, following my heart and mind.
Like a lot of people here this is not a fight I ever wanted or asked for. I'm not here because I 'hate' Muslims or Islam. In fact I had no previous opinion about Islam pro or con before it came assaulting us in the form of four hijacked jet airliners on September 11, 2001.
But unlike a lot of poeple who've gone back to sleep after that vicious atrocity, there are a lot of us who haven't gone back to sleep. This fight was forced on us and we're not backing down. "Don't Tread On Us" is a motto which reflects the America which doesn't back down. It should be the official motto of JihadWatch.
Yes there's a lot of anger in many posts. Read the constant litany of atrocities perpetrated by radical Muslims (no 'tiny minority' at that) and you will better understand why there is anger. If there is no anger then something is seriously wrong. Unfortunately the anger often gets poorly expressed and therefore does seem to sometimes cross the line into appearing as fanatical as the fanaticism we are fighting against. But beyond the angry words it is only the radical Muslims who are murdering in the name of their Islam. No other religion's faithful operate like that. Why is that?
It's inevitable in any anonymous bulletin board type setting that there is excess. At least it means that there is fight here, and fight is what we need if we are to confront and defeat a determined and ruthless enemy. Sometimes the excess is counterproductive but hey that's freedom.
Jeremiah:
I agree with your post about the foolishness of letting them come to the West to train in microbiology, and about stopping immigration.
Jeremiah:
Though I don't see a reason to take back the substance of my earlier long post, I probably shouldn't have been so harsh in the way I expressed the substance. Sorry about that.
To others: glad you liked the post.
It's true that most people on the left have no conception of the hatred that goes on in the minds of muslim extremists. I don't like the islamofascist analogy because it's imprecise but the fanatical hate really doesn't have any parallel except in nazis.
My whole criticism of the war is the fact that it appears to be a tool of authoritarians in the united states to take away civil rights. I expect the trend to progress. In addition, I don't think that the straight hardpower strategy is particularly sensible or effective here.
But why the hell we allow them to come here and study virology I can't really fathom.
Not that anyone is reading on this thread anymore, but...
I too am a big believer in the Big Tent defense against Islamism. Anyone who recognizes the threat and is willing to stand up and be counted against militant islam is my ally, including gays, leftists, liberals, whatever. Hopefully we can put the rest of our differences aside in order to focus on stopping our common foe.
jeremiah, it was just that one comment of your's that kind of set me off but I see that you are not under any illusions about militant islam too. Welcome to the fight. I will try to dilute my purity tests.
Dominic, I hadn't read the post the set you off but I have now and can see why you were so offended. If you are gay and resisting militant islam, WELCOME! I look forward to more exchange with all of you.
Jeremiah said:
Why do they want to take away civil rights?
What is happening is that the balance between freedom and security shifted after 9/11. Naturally, in a two-party system, there are going to be differences about just where the balance should lie. But the mere fact that not everyone agrees about where the balance should be is no reason to accuse those who don't agree with one of having fascist intentions.
Have you ever read conservative intellectuals? I can't believe you have, because if you had, you surely would not be demonizing conservatives as having authoritarian or fascist intentions. Conservatives who accuse every liberal of being a Stalinist or communist (I've heard Rush Limbaugh say something like that) are no better. If you'd read not just liberals, but serious conservatives too, you'd see that they, like many liberals, care about individual freedoms, but have different, sincerely held ideas about the social policies and foreign policies that protect freedom best.
Anyway, many Democrat congresspersons voted for the Iraq war. Were they all seeking to take away civil rights? You can't say that Bush misled them on intelligence, because most of the world's intelligence services concluded that Iraq was hiding WMD. And the Democrats in Congress had the same information Bush had.
I'm not saying the Iraq war was a good decision. But you demonize and conspiratorialize the complex of motives behind it. Both political parties do this demonizing, I suppose in part to get their supporters to think voting matters (which it does, even if the other side is not demonic). But why should you be in thrall to something so base as a political party? Be an independent.
A very significant piece of the heart of the U.S. was blown away. Not Schenectedy or Podunk. This was a watershed event. One more major attack on Manhattan -- especially a dirty bomb -- could permanently damage or even ruin New York as a city. Businesses might move away, or stop coming. Real estate values could plummet. Insurance costs for living in the city could go through the roof and make things impossible. And New York is not just any city. It is the greatest city in the U.S.
Consequently, a reasonable, if perhaps mistaken argument was made that it was insufficient to go after the Taliban government in Afghanistan. It was considered also necessary to go after an enemy dictatorship that had no clear connection to 9/11. The U.S. hawks' thought went in part something like this: "We have to send the message that even if an enemy dictatorship succeeds in hiding its link to a major attack on us, we might very well destroy that enemy dictatorship anyway, even in the absence of proof of a link. If they get that message, not only will they be less tempted to try to hit us secretly through terrorist proxies. But in addition, enemy dictatorships, for the sake of their own survival, will even be proactive in seeking to stop terror against the U.S. Because those states will know they might be held accountable, even in the absence of a clear link to the terrorists."
Of course the strategic wisdom of such a message is debatable, but one cannot deny it has a certain deterrence logic. In light of the desire to send that deterrance message, Iraq was a strong candidate for regime change. Saddam's dictatorship was extremely malign and virtually at war with the U.S. anyway, at huge cost in maintaining the no-fly zones. Saddam had attempted to assassinate a U.S. president. Sanctions and containment were clearly falling apart, and France and Russia were lobbying for the end of what was left of the sanctions. Saddam was unaffected by the sanctions regime, while innocent Iraqis suffered greatly.
Victor Davis Hanson has gone repeatedly into a whole host of reasons why the Iraq war could be justified without reference to the supposed desires of allegedly fascistic American officials to "take away civil rights," as you put it. That attribution of demonic motives only impoverishes the dialogue, or rather shuts it down, so that both sides end up with a less informed basis for decision-making.
I emphasize that I don't say the reasoning behind the war was correct. Only that your attribution of fascistic motives to conservatives (when so many other more benign motives were available and clearly present) seems to me a demonizing reflex and a lack of knowledge of those whom you demonize.
Conservatives clearly believe they are better protectors of freedom and liberty and civil rights than liberals. The belief might be wrong around half the time, but it is clearly sincerely held. So the demonizing attitude you sometimes express seem to me like a liberal version of Rush Limbaugh's demonizations. I would think you would be more circumspect about speaking sometimes like a liberal mirror image of Rush Limbaugh. Shouldn't you read conservatives as much as liberals? That's the only way to escape the influence of the mutually opposed demons that hover over the two sides. (Arguably Lucifer over conservatives, Ahriman over liberals. I think of Christ (not necessarily Christians) as seeking to hold the center. But that's another story.)
Nice post Traeh. I thought jeremiah was talking more about the 'War on Terror' in general than he was about Iraq but maybe that's wrong. I'll need to go back and re-read.
For me it's the screaming bloody murder over stuff like wire-tapping Al-Qaida incoming calls that drives me crazy. What part of THEY ARE TRYING TO KILL US!! do the ever-so-exacting civil libertarians not understand.
I was a Libertarian too until 9-11. Now I give every close call to killing the bad guys before they kill us.
Alexon -- good point: he was perhaps talking about the war on terror in general, not Iraq.
As for wiretapping and so on, maybe I have too much faith in the sturdiness of American democracy, but I just don't see us within a million miles of fascism here, and I can't feel very worried about wiretapping that is hedged all around by Congress and the courts and continual oversight and audit. Even if some of that oversight or audit is pushed back and reduced a bit, it's still there on all sides, like a jungle that has temporarily been pushed back to form a clearing but will inevitably advance into the clearing again. At least that's how it seems to be here in the U.S. I see everywhere countless checks and balances in place and working from every direction.
Yet I also think it's good that liberals and the ACLU fight tooth and nail to avoid giving up a single inch of freedom. I think that in many debates both sides of the debate have a point and the synthesis that emerges from their clash is the best we can hope for. Sometimes I think the ACLU is myopic and as a result takes some idiotic positions. Yet from the point of view of civil rights I'm glad we have an ACLU fighting intensely for civil rights. It's just that civil rights are not the only good we need to protect. Civil rights are among the most important goods, but there are others, like security. And sometimes, we may have to compromise some of our civil rights in order to have reasonable security. Without security, we won't have ANY civil rights anyway. But we do need people like the ACLU who are concerned ONLY with protecting civil rights. Because of groups like the ACLU, we can have a modicum of confidence that if the existing compromise between security and civil rights is altered to the detriment of civil rights, that alteration will not be made lightly or arbitrarily or without careful public review of all the ramifications. And that's a very good thing.
I hasten to add that liberals are better at protecting cultural freedoms than economic freedoms. Liberals often seem to want to destroy economic freedom.
traeh, you're too reasonable to be posting here.
You need to vent more, like the rest of us; Vent, vent, vent!
- just kidding.
I don't have the energy tonight to give a more substantial response but i appreciate your posts which are invariably thoughtful and well-written. Hope to see you on other threads.