"Mahdi Army militiamen have long enjoyed a free rein in Amarah," the article notes. Sadr's militia is just making its control official, with little or no expectation of a meaningful response from Nouri al-Maliki's government. "Shiite militia takes over Iraqi city," from AP:
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Shiite militia run by the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr seized control of a southern Iraqi city on Friday in one of the boldest acts of defiance yet by the country's powerful, unofficial armies, witnesses and police said.
Mahdi Army fighters stormed three main police stations Friday morning, residents said, planting explosives that flattened the buildings in Amarah, a city just 30 miles from the Iranian border that was under British command until August, when it was returned to Iraqi government control.
About 800 black-clad militiamen with Kalashnikov rifles and rocket-propelled grenades were patrolling in commandeered police vehicles, witnesses said. Other fighters set up roadblocks on routes into the city and sound trucks circulated telling residents to stay indoors.
The militiamen later withdrew from their positions and lifted their siege of police headquarters under a temporary truce negotiated with an al-Sadr envoy. It was not clear on Friday afternoon whether security forces had reasserted control over the city or whether the cleric knew about his militia's planned takeover in advance.
The Iraqi army dispatched two companies to Amarah from Basra, the south's largest city. Mohammad al-Alaskari, a Defense Ministry spokesman, said "the situation is still tense."
The events in Amarah -- involving a dispute between the Mahdi Army and local security forces believed controlled by the rival Badr Brigade militia -- highlight the threat of wider violence between rival Shiite factions, who have entrenched themselves among the majority Shiite population and are blamed for killings of rival Sunnis.
Badr, of course, was the site of the first major battle fought by Muslims, led by Muhammad: an attack on a Quraish caravan returning from Syria.
Al-Sadr's envoy, whose identity remains unknown, was due to meet with the provincial governor, the local Mahdi Army commander and al-Sadr's representative in Amarah, a city of 750,000.
Shiite militia violence, mainly against the country's Sunni minority, has ravaged Iraq since February when a Shiite holy place in Samara was blown up. The violence has been on the increase, but this is the first recent fighting that has pitted Shiites against one another on such a scale.
Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki, a former Shiite activist, won the top government post last spring thanks in part to the support of al-Sadr, who controls 30 of the 275 seats in the national parliament and five Cabinet posts.
In a sign of al-Sadr's influence, al-Maliki this week ordered the release of one of the young cleric's top lieutenants, Sheik Mazen al-Sa'edi, who was arrested by U.S. troops in Baghdad for alleged links to sectarian death squads. He visited al-Sadr in the holy city of Najaf Wednesday, the day al-Sa'edi was freed.
Mahdi Army militiamen have long enjoyed a free rein in Amarah, the provincial capital of the southern province of Maysan. Militiamen in Amarah often summon local government officials for meetings at their offices. They roam the city with their weapons, manipulate the local police and set up checkpoints at will.
Since British troops left Amarah in August, residents say the militia has been involved in a series of killings, including slayings of merchants suspected of selling alcohol and women alleged to have engaged in behavior deemed immoral by militiamen.
[...]
Fighting broke out Thursday after Qassim al-Tamimi, the provincial head of police intelligence and a leading member of the rival Shiite Badr Brigade militia, was killed by a roadside bomb. In retaliation, his family kidnapped the teenage brother of the Mahdi Army commander in Amarah, Sheik Fadel al-Bahadli, to demand the hand-over of al-Tamimi's killers.
Good-let the crazies wipe out one another. This is what Iraq wants after being freed from Saddam Hussein so let them have what they wish.
one of the boldest acts of defiance yet by the country's powerful, unofficial armies...
I was gonna say that Islam itself is the largest unofficial army in world history, but that wouldn't be correct.
Islam is the largest semi-official army in world history. If you doubt that, read the Koran and the Sunnah. Then you'll find yourself facing an army, however officious, that intends to eat joe up and spit joe out with a cheap motel towel wrapped around joe haid.
And that's official.
Find him and kill him.
I know people that are in Iraq right now and from their e-mail, I can see things from their perspective on the front line.
They even send pictures. Nevertheless, I think there is a lot of confusion in the most informed and blissful ignorance on the part of the least informed as to the nature of what they are fighting.
Some feel that they have already established "democracy" and haven't a clue as to what shariah is and do not understand why it is a problem to have it as part of the Iraqi Constitution.
Their interests are simple; stay alive and take out the people that are trying to kill you without getting caught so that you won't face a potential court marshall when you get home.
I am convinced that our leadership either does not understand jihad and its implications; or they actually believe that reasonable human beings will eventually be reasonable.
Thus, we continue on a fallacious premise of nation building and having a flawed view of what is at stake.
While we do not wish to destroy the enemy, the enemy does wish to destroy us.
I talked with some missionaries recently about their efforts to convert muslims in a certain African country and wondered how they hope to be successful in their effort given that the country in question was muslim.
The short story is that it is very difficult to say the least. Most people who would otherwise leave islam will not because of fear of the religious police and the certainty of death should they so do.
They said to me that the enemy is not the muslim individual, but rather the devil that works through islam -- and their concern was the salvation of muslims.
Then I read this story with the background information gleaned from personal experience, reading Spencer's material, independent research, and I have to wonder ... how can we in the West reasonably expect to live in peace?
This victory in this small Iraqi town, is the echoing of history and jihad voiceing itself in the present.
It is a call to war; a call to islam; a call to jihad.
We must hear this voice for what it is -- a voice of death.
That voice must be silenced before it silences the voice of life itself for all of civilization.
Dhimmitude or Death -- I have chosen the latter, but I will fight on in every way I can until then.
Do as you will.
Good-let the crazies wipe out one another. This is what Iraq wants after being freed from Saddam Hussein so let them have what they wish.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS
I agree. Of course we should occupy the oil fields and fortify positions around them. We need to pump at least enough oil until we get our money back that we've spent there.
reports on the radio were saying how "many dead civilians were caught in the crossfire".
I note the interesting use of the passive voice....
What's the bet that the moment the British Army goes in to save these civilians the world press will be awash with "British Army kill civilians?"
I note the spurious use of the active voice.
I then note that follow up action will come in the form of terrorist attacks in Britain because our army should not be there killing civilians.
Now this war has become a choice of our civilians or their's thanks to Islamic leaders, either supporting terrorism or criticising British foreign policy and remaining silent about terrorism.
Whilst not liking death, I think I have come down firmly on the side of their civilians dying instead of ours and fully support a withdrawel.
Taking a pause, whilst on my moral high ground, I rest assured that the responsibility for the death of those civilians, should we withdraw, lies firmly at the feet of the moslem community who think advancing Islam in Britain through the threat of fear is more valuable than the civilian lives of their precious "moslem brothers"....
I just saw this story on CNN. They had a video shot of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. My question is, If you have a video camera from CNN following Al-Sadr around, why can't the American military have a marine sniper following him around with a 50 cal. rifle???
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
...commandeered police vehicles...
I bet that was tough.
I suspect that there is a reason Al-Sadr is not dead. He must serve some purpose to the US military or he would be vaporized.
He may, in fact, add some "control" to an otherwise un-controllable group of militias.
Just shooting from the hip on this one. No facts backing up my statement.
Any other thoughts?
Limes,
Gee, and I thought car-jacking was just an L.A. thing!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Policy favoring "political" solution kept U.S. military from disarming independent militias
Al-Sadr began to cause evil mischeif in Iraq the minute American forces deposed Saddam. One of his first acts was to enter a mosque in Basra and murder a cleric thought to be pro-Western. Everyone in Iraq knows that Al-Sadr is an Iranian agent.
Al-Sadr has a formidable army answering to him, it is armed by Iran with sophisticated weaponry. If the U.S. Army directly engaged Al-Sadr he would be toast, but the Army has been restrained by the Department of State. State wanted to "reach out" to Al-Sadr and persuade him to lay down his arms and join a Western style multi-party government. In other words, State wanted to turn a murderous thug into a Western politician, all the while ignoring the fact that this thug was busily killing American soldiers and many others with arms supplied by Iran.
The idiocy and blindness of this type of policy is beyond words. The most tragic aspect of this is that the American government has asked Americans to die for this policy.
There are rumblings in Washington that James Baker, a former advisor to Bush I will head a "commission" which will recommend withdrawal or disengagement without anything resembling the victory that Americans were prepared to support.
This will mean that American soldiers have died in vain and it will mean that many Iraqis who have sided with the Americans will be totally unprotected from the ruthless thugs that range free in Iraq.
Again, we will lose because of an unwillingness to use the force necessary to win. This unwillingness stems from the constant harping, complaining and critiquing of our military by forces on the Left and jihadis disguised as impartial "human rights" organizations. Again, we will lose only because we have not faced the truth and done with needs to be done.
God help us all. I fear the coming of a dark age unlike that known at any time before as dictators have so much more technology to enforce their rule than in the past. God help us all.
KillHankKill,
My thoughts are that he has a massive following from his home town. And, the military is afraid that killing him would incite riots or something...
I say, put a slug in his skull, and consequences be damned!!!
Al-Sadr has been a festering thorn in our side from day one, and now he's morphed from a vocal cleric to a full blown terrorist.
Perhaps this terrorist action is the excuse that the U.S. Military has been waiting for to take him out of the equation...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Very ominous it seem that the Iranian have been having been stirring the pot. I just hope that the Brits don't have to go in and retake the bloody place again. We will just have to see what sort of spin mr. Blair puts on it. I am certain there is a lot of discussions and telegrams flying between london and Washington at the moment. Could this account for the very belligerent attitude at the moment of the president of Iran?
Athena,
Good post!
But, I wouldn't say that we are going to lose this battle. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but the full fury of the American Military can be unleashed at a moments notice! Uhm, well, pending another attack on American soil, uhm, well, err, from Iraqis...
Damn! you've got a point...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Athena and Dr. Bulldog -
I'm sorry but give me some 'picture' of what 'victory' for our forces in Iraq would look like. Once Sadr is 'blown away' who are the 'good guys' who will then run things? HOW will they run things? How long? For whom?
We must get away from this notion of "letting them kill each other", that will not solve the issue. Only by addressing the real problem that is islam will you make progress.
That the British were just there, and leave to have this happen serves to show the truth, we must fight against the real enemy of these people of Iraq, and the rest of the M.E.
The enemy is islam.
hey let Sadr have his little city, l say keep them locked up in there, no one out, no one in, starve them out. wont take long. by that time they will have killed each other faster than you say abracadabra!
To the above add this Sunni Fighters claim Ramadi
This is the beginnining of the end in Iraq,my friends.Only success story is the Kurds who deserve to be supported in their legitimate struggle for a Homeland.Rest of whole sorry episode is entirely due to apalling IGNORANCE OF ISLAM by our stupid Leaders.Am sure Fat Boy Al Sadr is laughing in his beard and gloating how the Infidels handed him great power & Shi ite Islamic Paradise on a plate...[Already those owning alcohol shops are being firebombed & eliminated while women deemed 'immoral'[for refusing to wear a hijab] are ripe for rape & torture by their Holy Bros.When I think of how much 'Infidel blood' has been spilt in Bush & Blair's GREAT DEMOCRACY ADVENTURE, I could weep with rage and anger.Do these fools ever learn?
After Kosovo,now Iraq will turn a deadly Hornet's nest to target every Western country in the world with killing Jihadi skills honed in 'Vietnam of Middle East.'
Dr. Bulldog says, in response to Athena's excellent post: "Maybe I'm just an optimist, but the full fury of the American Military can be unleashed at a moments notice! Uhm, well, pending another attack on American soil, uhm, well, err, from Iraqis...
Damn! you've got a point..."
I see Dr. Bulldog is veering over to Athena's side, and I agree with her. We could have cleaned up central Iraq in a week if we'd wanted to. So the question implicit in Athena's musings is: WHY haven't we used our force to do so? And the basis for her pessimism is precisely the answer to that question. Because of the democracy delusion fostered by President Bush, backed up by the horror at the very thought of making war on an enemy defined by religion. It doesn't matter to our leaders that the enemy defines himself by his religion; our leaders refuse to take those people at their own word. That's how deep the delusion goes. The reason we haven't wiped out the enemy is the same reason we tolerate that school in California that had an Islam day when all the kids had to pretend to be Muslims, etc. We're forbidden even to entertain the notion that all religions are not equally worthy of respect. By no coincidence the ideologues who foster this preposterous notion are themselves indifferent at best to real religion; to them, Muslim practices are quaint foreign customs alongside others such as cuisine from Thailand and costumes from Hungary (except more dangerous to insult).
As long as we're ruled by multiculturalist ideologues I have to agree with Athena's comment: "God help us all. I fear the coming of a dark age unlike that known at any time before as dictators have so much more technology to enforce their rule than in the past. God help us all."
Frieda:
It is difficult to predict the future. There seems to be signs of hope coming from the UK: Jack Straw and the veil controversy seems to be healthy development.
So far, we do not have a signficant Muslim population but they do punch above their weight don't they.
You know even in America you cannot publicly mock anything attached to Islam without a visit from CAIR. Remember the car dealer with the salesman in burkhas, too, too good. Shut down by CAIR. Thou shalt not mock Islam but but shall pay the artist who put the crucifix in a glass of urine.
Ain't it amazing. That whirring sound you hear is Washington, Jefferson, Madison and others spinning in their graves.
Our Founding Fathers probably never envisioned that we would face a barbaric, hateful, intolerant death cult disguised as a "religion".
It is sad to say, but we probably need another big terror attack on the West to wake up the sleeping masses. Gas is still cheap, cell phones and shopping malls are plentiful.
What jihad?
Whats this gunna make it the third time,that we have to confront him,to take a city back?Maybe this time when we negotiate with him,he can be made director of security,or president,or somethin.
Athena: I agree. We can't predict the future, and it's darkest before the dawn, etc. But then, we can't know that it won't get darker still.
As to Britain's awakening, just today a Conservative Party leader took a compromising position on the veil issue. No matter that he was trying to do what politicians are supposed to do: distance himself from the opposite party's position; why didn't he choose a different issue? France may be starting to fight back, if recent signs are to be trusted--but then, France has discovered what the "two-state solution" looks like, only not in "Palestine"-Israel but in the split in rule between the French cities and their suburbs, which are now independent shari'a sovereignties.
As to our country, you're right; we're far better off than any in Europe. But I'd feel cheerier if some schools had "Judaism days" and "Christianity days" to go with their "Islam days"--and if Bush had rebuked Condoleezza Rice for her outrageous speech on the "Palestinians'" "deserving" their own country and how awful their "humiliation" at the "occupation" is, which speech must therefore have been acceptable to her boss.
But what's most disheartening is the ignorance and indifference of most Americans. Thank heavens for Jihad Watch! May its tribe increase.
KillHankKill,
Yup, you are right about that! As long as Americans feel all nice and cozy with their blinders on, we will never be able to stop Jihazism.
The only thing that will wake them up is another, God forbid, 9/11 style attack on our soil. I hate to say it, but I am beginning to hope for another attack, just to shut up these Dhimmi-Libs that are tying our hands...
Am I wrong??? Please let me know...
If so, how can we get these Dhimmi-Lib monkeys off our backs?
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Somehow, Saddam was able to keep things like this from happening. Of course, we know what it was he did differently.
Iraq --- sadly, a place where only fear can rule.
al-Sadr seizes a city, CNN turncoat "reporters" relishing in snipers killing our soldiers, 8 American soldiers awaiting a death sentence in Camp Pendleton from accusations initiated by the ENEMY--and not so much as a fart heard from Bush or Rumsfeld. One or both should be impeached for dereliction of duty, not upholding the oath of office, and dissappointment in general. I voted for Bush in part because of his "strong" stance on the terror front--taking the war to their shores; then, this week, Condi Rice--who is way over her head incidentally-- is praising the efforts of Abbas in Palestine!!! What a dissappointment!!! What danger we are all in!!! Where is a leader??? Is there a politician in the US that won't sell us down the river to Islamo-facsists???? If it is you, please post your resume!
The west should have won the war when they won it...
In the name of god,
Al sadr's militia come from the poor uneducated slums of Sadr city whom were reprived of any form of education and school for years, it is made up of drug dealers/thugs/former baathists whom are shia. The order does not come from him.
Secondly i would like to point our a great error made by the U.S Forces in Iraq when they took over Baghdad in 2003. You do NOT dismantle a 1 million man army and allow them to go home, infact you do NOT dismantle them at all. They will join any form of militia because they have nothing better to do therefore they kill for money. I have heard personal statements that a life in Iraq now costs $2.75 U.S dollars and an AK47 is $5 U.S Dollars.
Thank you, and peace to all.
It sure is nice to see how the Iraqis are going about building their nation after being freed from that tyrant Saddam.
Looks like he'll have plenty of company in Allah's paradise when they finally get around to stringing him up.
This is a good test; iraqis took the city in defiance of their own elected government. They chose religious slavery over freedom. The US should back the elected government with ammunition and a few Special Forces advisors, air support and artillery and let the new iraqi army clean up this mess. If they fail to take the city back then we should pull out immediately. If the iraqis are not willing to fight for freedom then we shouldn’t either. Give them the tools to succeed but don’t fight for them. You iraqis want freedom? Fight for it.
I commented on this in August. I ran across a muslim blog site and they were talking about the 12th Imam coming on the 22nd of August.
What I DO find interesting is that they were suggesting that this Iraq Mahdi Army would merge with an invading Iran army and then begin attacking our soldiers.
I find it very interesting that we have sent out the USS Eisenhower (nuclear carrier) to the Persian Gulf (to arrive on the 21st of October - the day before Ramadan ends). I have read on ME websites that Iran is moving forces to be ready to attack our forces. The UK moved their military out of that city and so the Iraqi Mahdi losers were able to easily take over - given that the Iraq government (army and police) are less than enthusiastic about fighting radicals (being radicals themselves most likely).
So there may indeed be somthing to all the speculation that we are about to go to war with Iran.
Syria is ready to attack Israel (Israel is expecting it). Syria is continuing to supply weapons to Hezbollah. Hamas is getting weapons - they just found a tunnel for smuggling arms to the Pali ARABS. I have read that the Pali's are armed to the teeth.
When you factor in the comments by the Egyptian twit (who by the way recently met with the Syrian and Iranian twits), we could be seeing a major attack on Israel AND on our forces in the ME.
I personally think we need to move our soldiers out and exterminate. You cannot reason with barbaric backwards idiots. You cannot negotiate with liars. It looks like God's reasoning when he told Israel in the OT to kill them ALL, made perfect sense.
You and your readers might be interested in the official web page of SCIRI, the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq This is Georgie boys chief friend and ally, the outfit he backs and supports (to haul his ass out of the dilemna he created at the expense, BTW, of democracy, liberty and freedom..American Style.
Anyway an excerpt:
Shia,
You're right about that! I don't know who decided to dismantle the Iraqi army, but he/she is an idiot!
Didn't anyone read their history books before they dismantled Iraq's Army??? - The Greeks, the Romans, and just about all of the other empires knew that once you conquer a country, you merge their militia with your own!
It replaces all the well-trained troops that you have lost, with more of the same. And, it keeps down the underground resistance fighters!!!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
The Goobs,
I think iran is all talk, but here are a few things to consider. The biggest part of our military might is already in iraq. The are already tired of being in iraq, tired of multiple back to back tours in iraq, pissed at muslims who claim they want freedom but will not fight for it. And lastly, mad because once again they will be away from home on Christmas.
This is a great time to attack them. We should all encourage ahmadiamagirlymanjhad to attack. Stop talking be a man and give us a reason. I would rather fight you now than wait until you develop a real military and get your hands on a nuke.
Hundreds of thousands of pissed of Americans trained to kill but never given the opportunity to prove it. Suddenly trapped, surrounded by hostiles and seeing no easy way home. Sounds like a target rich environment, something dreamed about but rarely seen. I wouldn’t wish that even on iran, it would be a one sided bloodbath and quite a shock to the muslim world. We should make this fair, we will only use half our forces and require a break every hour to let you pick up your dead. Afterwards we will occupy iran and watch your widows crying, la la la la la la la la (I always did like that).
My thoughts are that he has a massive following from his home town. And, the military is afraid that killing him would incite riots or something...
I say, put a slug in his skull, and consequences be damned!!!
Al-Sadr has been a festering thorn in our side from day one, and now he's morphed from a vocal cleric to a full blown terrorist.
Yes, let them riot.. and when they do fly over with aircraft armed with machine guns and raze the crowd. do this a few times and I guarantee you there won't be any further riots. In fact I suggest Israel do the same whenever the PayPals have their little machinegun-waving parades of hate. Fly over and raze the b*tches!
They have burned flags of all our countries and we all have an axe to grind re. these folks. I consider what they did to our flags an Act of War. Not to mention our missions and embassies that we keep there TO PROVIDE THESE DEVILS WITH VISAS!!! We should close down and freeze relations with any country where our institutions are attacked. That way we keep hostiles out of our own precious lands!
I suspect that there is a reason Al-Sadr is not dead. He must serve some purpose to the US military or he would be vaporized.
He may, in fact, add some "control" to an otherwise un-controllable group of militias.
Just shooting from the hip on this one. No facts backing up my statement.
Any other thoughts?
Posted by: KillHankKill
Yes I have other thoughts indeed:
We're not killing the bastard because the White House lawyers are wringing their hands and the administration is afraid of that the press will write and what the other countries may think if we do. As if massive rioting were of the justness of one's cause!
germaninamerica,
I agree. It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
germaninamerica,
I agree. It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
Posted by: Ronin
Sad but true..
Bulldog,
It was the decision of the Hawkish republican generals, Usually the republicans are the best to deal with the Iranians. I am originally Iranian and i assure anyone the Ayatollah's have nothing to do with the American people.
Secondly as for iraq, the bush administration tried to establish a shia friendly government who would counter Iran due to the History of difference in Idealogy between Najaf and Qom school of Shia theology. This has backfired greatly and instead they are Pro-Iran.
I would not think of war with Iran if i were the hawks, it is too much loss and choas, the region is heading towards civil war and it is unstopable anymore, this is bad for Sunni governments. This is bad for American interests, however i must note that Shia have a greater chance of winning any war at the moment with the Sunni governments. As a American think thank Brezenski has noted the U.S MUST get on the table with Iran to resolve it's position and public appearance through out the muslim world, you cannot ignore muslims they are 1.7 billion.
As for an American-Iran post conflict, 950,000 troops will cross into iraq and attack American soilders. Iran has one power the U.S does not posses. The shia fatwa which Najaf will agree also to call upon their shia population to rise up and some Sunnies already have hatred and feel they are bieng occupied by American forces. War is bad for the Bush administration.
Hey! The one thing we can be sure of in our favor is that nuts like Ahmajeeniebob really BELIEVE in their own nonsense. Does the name "Baghdad Bob" ring a bell?
I was a big supporter of GWB & Co. Now whenever I see him, Condee, Rumsfeld on TV I want to send them all for psychological testing somewhere.
I think if Syria messes with Israel it will be very bad for Syria. Another "ace in the hole" is that the Mooslims lie to one another at all times. So if there is an attack on Israel, there's no way the Syrians, Egypt, etc. can count on one another.
Democracy, fairness, honesty and decency are outside the reality zone of Moslems. In fact, to use a cliche, "it's against their religion."
Sansantiago,
Sryia and Eygpt despise one another by the way. If Syria is attacked iran will interfere and the U.S will also retaliate, As i have stated before war is not good for the Bush administration.
Israel and Hezbollah were two proxy armies which fought in the name of Iran and the U.S. Hezbollah resisted the fourth most powerful army equiped with fourth generation weaponry the most sophisticated provided by the U.S. I would really go and review their logisitics, tactics, and warfare if i were them.
Shia,
950,000 troops will cross into iraq and attack American soilders.
Scary scenario here is another. We have two, count them two, carrier battle groups (press reports) possibly more nearby. Each carrier group carries more bombs than we dropped in all of WWII. Iran’s military is formidable if allowed into iraq and could take up positions in a city. House to house sucks but is doable. Iran also has a long, long way to go before it can get into iraq. Most likely scenario, 950,000 cross into irag, 50, 000 shell shocked, beaten and bloody survivors return.
BTW, the Bush administration. Is already at war and he can not be reelected for a third time, he has absolutely nothing to lose. US commander make tactical calls when ground forces are in danger, Washington peaceniks can not stop them, for once the full combat power of the US machine would rain down on 950,000 unprotected troops. Like I said I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. An iran/US war would do nothing but destroy iran.
Ronin,
Never underestimate your enemy, I do not understimate the might of the U.S army, but iran has made well preprations as well as over 100 Shehab-3 ballestic missiles roaming around Iran waiting to hit any target as far as Tel aviv.
I am sorry to say the U.S lacks urban warfare. Iran has excellent urban warfare tackling many rebels from the south of Iran. An average Marine cannot tell any difference from an Iraqi and an Iranian nor from a citzen or a soilder wearing civilian clothing. All is fair in love and war.
Do not forget Iran has the largest army resrve in the entire world which make up to 11 million baseej soilders.
Iran already has a few thousand if not tens of thousands Iranian agents in the south whom are actually attacking British/American convoys from time to time. You cannot tackle these Wahabi/Salafi movements in the Sunni triangle how do you expect to handle trained al quds forces or baseej forces? DO you not put in consideration the public rise up in the U.S? Or the roaming free U.S soilders in the gulf? This will turn into a global war, I am not saying Iran can defeat the powerful U.S Army. No i am saying they will cause a lot of pain and Iran can prevent any invasion in the 21st century.
All good points Shia but Iran’s fight would continue through it’s agents, it’s military forces would be destroyed, its cities in ruin (shock and awe part two), it’s oil wealth destroyed, ports ruined and for what?
Would we be hurt, yes, no doubt but our nation weakened not really. Keep in mind, I could careless who owns, Iraq or Iran, Shia, Sunni, It is not my concern. I believe only the people themselves can make that call. If Iraqis want freedom then they should fight for it. If their elected government is not up to the task, the US and Iran both should steer clear and let nature take its course.
The strait of hormouz which 2/5 of the world's oil passes through including the U.S, Russia, China and Europe oil ships pass through will be blocked and put minds in the water. This will shoot the oil pirces up heavily allowing riots to take place around the western world, Do you really want the oil barrel to have a $200 price? Don't depend so much on the Bush administrations's saudi buddies.
Iraq is a wounded country, it needs to be healed, the war has started and nothing can stop it anymore. The shia in Iraq die daily everyday they die because of once funded by the U.S mujahdeen in Afghanistan just to fight the Russians and now they have turned against your country. The American government created a monster they cannot controll.
The strait of hormouz which 2/5 of the world's oil passes through including the U.S, Russia, China and Europe oil ships pass through will be blocked and put minds in the water. This will shoot the oil pirces up heavily allowing riots to take place around the western world, Do you really want the oil barrel to have a $200 price? Don't depend so much on the Bush administrations's saudi buddies.
Iraq is a wounded country, it needs to be healed, the war has started and nothing can stop it anymore. The shia in Iraq die daily everyday they die because of once funded by the U.S mujahdeen in Afghanistan just to fight the Russians and now they have turned against your country. The American government created a monster they cannot controll.
Posted by: Shia
Ok, First controlling the straits we would own in less than a day, so no worries there. The oil already at sea would keep us going longer than we need to crush Iran. Would the price go up, yes panic buying, maybe but $200, never happen, Govt price controls and rationing at most. Remember we went through one embargo already, no big deal.
Second: I don’t remember ever indorsing President Bush or any other party, I have little or no concern for politics. Did the US support the mujahdeen, absolutely, I even had a small part in that myself, still kicking myself for that one but we all make mistakes.
I wish I knew what the best solution is for Iraq but I am not that smart. I can only hope they finally figure out killing each other will not build an economy, repair their infrastructure, or allow them to enter the 21st century. I am sure by now they want those things, pride, and stupidity are all that stand in their way. Once real men stand up and lower their hatred and humble themselves enough to work together will this end. Iran entering the fight will not help anyone, it will cause even more bloodshed and destroy another country. It will also set its own progress back several generations.
Face it Iran is not ready to be a world power, it is not even close. Could Iran have helped Indonesia, Bosnia, Kuwait, Kosovo, financed the UN for generations and responded to every natural and manmade disaster in the entire world, even when they hate them? Would they even try? No offense but the world needs the USA far more than it needs islam or Iran.
In an earlier post you referred to Iran as my enemy, that is not the case, at least not yet. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. If your scenario happened, I would make one phone call and be back on active duty. If not to fight to train those who would and I would not be alone. Americans fight with each other out of boredom, we rally when attacked. 9/11 cost the muslim world two countries, let it stop there, we don’t want anymore.
Sir,
You greatly underestimate the might of the Shia and the Iranian nation. Not everything goes your way in war, I again remind you, the Shia are still friendly with the u.s in Iraq and have not even begun attacking. The sleeping giant in Iraq the 60% population is quiet because of Ayatollah Sistani and other Ayatollah's. Let them call for the word and even the U.S food trucks would be attacked In iraq.
Islam has ruled before and it shall rule again, sadly after the Death of Imam Ali the prophet's cousin, It went very bad. Islam is fine, Some muslims are not.
The world needs peace not a specific country. The world has too much anger and hatred, I read these posts because of a group of extremist people are judging Muslims in general which is very unfair.
The solution for Iraq, the case has past far beyond peace, pride, and restoring order. It is time to fight, fight for the new shia state that must be created. 1400 years of oppression the shia sect of Islam, it is the most oppressed sect in world history. It is time to secure our people for next hunrdeds of years and if war is must for the shia, then I believe they should go at it. Either way i hear dozens of shia die daily how will declared civil war be any different?
You are wrong my friend I don’t underestimate anyone, I just don’t believe Iran could pull it off. Even if you won and Iraq was 100% Shia do you really think all those Sunni muslims are just going to sit there? Didn’t you learn from your other war with Iraq? I seem to remember you guys were the ones who sent kids into mine fields, not the actions of an advanced race nor a civilized one.
Shia are not dying daily, Iraqis are dying, Americans are dying, and foreigners who shouldn’t even be in Iraq are dying, in short people are dying. Killing more will not free anyone nor will it serve some imams plan to dominate the world. It will get young men killed and the old men who sent them will just send more. Why don’t the imams fight? Ever see Sadr with a scratch? How about Saddam or Ahmedwhatshisnameajad? Brave warriors all, until the lead flies, then they run, hide and send others into battle. Iran has much potential just piss poor leadership. You want respect and power, earn it though actions not war. You are wrong my friend I don’t underestimate anyone, I just don’t believe Iran could pull it off. Even if you won and Iraq was 100% Shia do you really think all those Sunni muslims are just going to sit there? Didn’t you learn from your other war with Iraq? I seem to remember you guys were the ones who sent kids into mine fields, not the actions of an advanced race nor a civilized one.
Shia are not dying daily, Iraqis are dying, Americans are dying, and foreigners who shouldn’t even be in Iraq are dying, in short people are dying. Killing more will not free anyone nor will it serve some imams plan to dominate the world. It will get young men killed and the old men who sent them will just send more. Why don’t the imams fight? Ever see Sadr with a scratch? How about Saddam or Ahmedwhatshisnameajad? Brave warriors all, until the lead flies, then they run, hide and send others into battle. Iran has much potential just piss poor leadership. You want respect and power, earn it though actions not war. Send medicines and aid into Iraq, equally to both sides, be the peacemakers, work with the US and the other allies. A modern power fights as a last resort. All the propaganda is crap, the US doesn’t invade, invaders are conquerors and take, we restore and help rebuild the economies by purchasing things we could simply take. You want to enter the 21st century and we would welcome it. Commerce is a great equalizer war is not.
Sorry about the double post, not sure how that happened.
Shia,
You make several interesting observations the most notable is:
"It is time to fight, fight for the new shia state that must be created. 1400 years of oppression the shia sect of Islam, it is the most oppressed sect in world history. It is time to secure our people for next hunrdeds of years and if war is must for the shia, then I believe they should go at it. Either way i hear dozens of shia die daily how will declared civil war be any different?"
___
I support you in your fight against tyranny and oppression. However, I must say that many Westerners are more than a little bit cautious about installing another Theocracy in Iran. If you were to fight for true, peaceful religious freedom with the main goal of setting up a freely elected Democratic Society (By the People, For the People) then, I am sure that many in the West would support your cause. Heck, even the United Nations might back you up.
Heck, I might even go so far as to help you...
But, by making this a battle of Religiosity and not Democracy, you tend to alienate those who would help you in the Western World.
And, another thing, after you have killed enough of them, and they stop fighting, be sure to respect them, and include them in your democratically elected government. There is no, "state religion" in a true democracy. Everyone is free to pray to their own version of God - be it Allah, Buddha, LORD God Almighty, Jesus Christ, or even the Devil, himself...
If there is any one major reason why Muslims in Iran, and Iraq are fighting amongst themselves, it is because they cannot or will not embrace the simple concept of peaceful co-existance with other forms of religion...
I wish you the best of luck, and Godspeed, you'll be needing it...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Doctor Bulldog, I am afraid we are wasting our time, it seems to me he is young and convinced he is ready to fight a glorious war. I have yet to see any glory in war but he it is killin he seeks someone will honor his request.
Darn dyslexai lol
bulldog,
Islam means peace i believe in everyone's right to believe what they want and true discussions can be brought to the table or in meetings where we can debate, I lived in the Middle East and in Europe. I have a hobby of listening to communists, socialists, right wing activiits, muslims, sunnis, shia, buddhists. Iran allows every religion there to practice, our neighbours in Iran were jewish for 30 long years and we have never hated one another, our nieghbours next door were sunni and we only knew they were sunni when we had a funeral We never asked who was who or what was what, and this is during the Islamic republic and the days of shah. I have seen sunnis humiliate, call upon us as rejectors, attack us veberaly in schools even the teacher has tried to do it. I am not generalising because some Sunnies are very good and some shia are very bad as well, that is in every sect, religion and even athiests. But let's face it this is a war for power, it must be done. Again i assure you our theologists do not mind debating or talking to anyone, but when your neighbours are butchers it's kind of hard to do that, don't you think? (i am reffering to sunni extremists) You were upset from 9/11 and we understood your pain, try to understand us when we were killed from Saladin who slaughterd the eygptian Shia to "Unify Islam" he killed over 60,000, this trace backs to the othman turks, to the pan-arabs, to the socialists and baathists. Point is we gave them TOO MANY chances and enough is enough. I suggest you read the 1920 revolution against the british occupation of Iraq, when the shia announced war and sunnies fought long side them, how ironicaly 3000 shia died in baghdad why? because sunni-arabs and turks sturck a deal with the british. The shia were not even represented as high officials in the government and they were a majority of the nation.
Ronin i am young, but i have had family fight since the british/soviet occupation of Loristan Iran, the revolution, Iraq-Iran war, and my family in iraq Najaf and Basra from 1991-1997 with Ayatollah mohammad Baqir al Sadr.
Ronin,
Ah, yes - the glorious battles, the stuff that legends are made of...
I'm starting to think about going back on active duty, also...
If only I were convinced that a Democratic Nation would emerge from the rubble left over from those Nukes I would be asked to get send on their way to the Mideast...
Then, maybe, just maybe, I'd make that call...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
I love the perspective that ya'll are offering, however, we have to consider that something DRASTIC is going to have to take place before any additional military force is utilized in the region. Bush has gone soft and Rumsfeld is senile and convinced of his own greatness. The military was emasculated under Clinton and Bush is more terrified of offending Muslims than he is of annihilating them overseas. Our boys are getting slaughtered--70 this month and counting--and it is completely unneccesary. We have the military capacity to level Fallujah, Amarah, and every other sh*#hole city in the nation just with conventional weapons alone. Why are we sending our boys door-to-door like a Jehovah's witnesses preaching democracy to a gaggle of barbarians???
Shia, If you really want to save the Iraqi Shia fine invite them into Iran, give the Iraqi sunni Iraq, it maybe generations before it is worth owning. Live in peace. America will not allow genocide earned or not. As I said before you are not our enemy, don't become one. Iran can help save Iraq or help end it. Both have a price, do what you think you can afford. If Iran really wants to save Iraqi Shia, except them house them and protect them; the entire world would help.
Attack Iraq and you become a huge target. The world will condemn you and we will crush your country, people and culture, fight back with terrorism, especially in the US and a few things will happen, islam as it exists in the western world will change, muslims will be rounded up, sent home or interned.
Don’t believe me? Is it worth the risk is a much better question.
Shia,
If your country is so wonderful, like you say, and "allows every religion there to practice," like you are saying. Then I guess there is no problem there in Iran...
And, I guess you were talking about something else when you said:
"It is time to fight, fight for the new shia state that must be created. 1400 years of oppression the shia sect of Islam, it is the most oppressed sect in world history."
I'm all for you, Shia. I don't think that you would be an oppressive religiosity... You sound like a bright young fellow, who is willing to listen to reason, else you wouldn't be here.
I just think that you need to start looking at Democracy and not Theocracy when that inevitable revolution occurs in Iran.
Be sure to make everyone equal, also.
Else, the shia's will wind up being oppressed for another 1400 years when another crazy religious leader takes over. That's all I'm saying, Shia...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Ronin,
Sorry about the, "...Nukes I would be asked to get send on..." typo in my last post to you. I was watching Battlestar Galactica, while typing, and must have got excited by the Battlestar Pegasus gettin' all blown up and stuff...
Correction is as follows:
If only I were convinced that a Democratic Nation would emerge from the rubble left over from those Nukes I would be asked to send on their way over to the Mideast...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Jihadjava,
Trust me when I say this there is no slaughter in Iraq. I have lost personal friends over there and have many more still in the box. That said, I don’t think any American life is worth one insurgent life. Slaughter is a nice sounding pc term for losing, we routinely kill 100-1, but it is not about numbers. More people die every year in traffic in Tampa than in four years of fighting in Iraq. So far no one has asked to abandon Tampa. Jihadis from dozens of countries met Allah with our help, where do you think they would be if not Iraq? Do you really think the Iraqis want them blowing stuff up every time it gets rebuilt? If this ends with militant islam having to wait 18 years to grow a new army, I would consider that success. The more we kill the better off we are. Few Iraqis have lived free most only know terror but every man deserves at least the opportunity to live free. If they fail to fight for it that mistake will cost them for generations and we wasted our time and blood. At least we killed plenty of jihadis who would be attacking other countries and in the end more of the world is at peace because we had the guts to try.
Ronin, again i respect you bieng patriotic and Iran will save the shia and that is why all shia do love Iran.
Bulldog, When i spoke of Iran, i spoke of the people they do not see a difference. Look let's face there is no perfect government, east, west, south or north and espicially not today. I try not to spread hate, even though i can lift my finger up like many many other muslims and say well Israel did this and the U.S did that, but i like to realise where WE went wrong and how we should revise our tactics and policies with other religions and point of views. Iran is far from perfect but it represents me and I represent it i have to be noble, well respected and give others the chance to express their views. Democracy is great we all like to speak our minds, unfortunately that needs work in the Middle East and the Muslim world, but BOMBS will not bring the anwser.
When i mentioned we have to fight, I mean't we must stand up, if it is with our minds then we shall use it, with our hearts then we will use it, and if we have to sacrfice our blood then i believe this is something we have gotten used to and we shall do so again.
I like to explain to my fellow shia brethren that, the U.S never took over by Planes, Tanks, and what not. They took over by Media by allowing people to feel FREE and give oppritunity. Yes i admire AIPAC, NWO, Neocons, PNAC, hengry kissinger, Zbiengew Brezenski and many many other American politicians. Let's face it we were behind and you were ahead, My point is it is time to catch up and run this race along with you no matter how tired we will be. But first we must rid of the wieght on our shoulders Sunni extremism.
JihadJava,
Wow, that's some pretty drastic stuff your wanting done in the Mideast..
We all know that if we wanted to, we could, "Nuke 'em all." After all, we DO own the U.N. And, any repercussions would be of none effect.
However, the world would be less interesting without the Mideast...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Doctor Bulldog,
Since you brought up the Battlestar Pegasus (which I also watched btw) impossible odds, no one believes they could over come. But they went they tried and fought without, trickery, terrorism or targeting random civilians by doing so maintained their personal honor. It is fiction but you wore the uniform you know we practice it daily. I have no problems with professional warriors. I have repeated often I don’t think islam has any. I am speaking about the insurgents, terrorists or whatever we are calling them at the time. I don’t fear a world controlled by islamanazi clerics; I fear a world without America. If we lose, hey we tried, they will miss us when we are gone, we OTOH will finally get some rest.
Shia,
Well said.
I think you and I share a common goal of living in peace and harmony with all nations.
By the way, we have a saying, here in the United States that goes something like this:
"Democracy is a crappy form of Government, but it's the best form of government the world has offered us so far..."
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Shia we have common ground in today’s world all 18-25 Sunni males are suspect, got it I really do. I do not under stand why they think killimg themselves in this world will help them in the next for one simple reason. What if they are wrong? The way I see it they have at best a 50-50 chance, not worth the risk IMHO. The Koran maybe 100% accurate, then again it could be crap made up as a control mechanism and intended to enslave the populace. I have read about the historical problems between the sects of islam but I am not a muslim and can not claim to understand them. What I do know is if you could not settle it in 1400 years of fighting, it is time for new ideas. In less than 300 years the US went from escaping rabble to an Imperial power. We were violent, made mistakes and took advantage but we now know we were wrong and in our hearts we are attempting to make up for it. After 1400 years maybe you muslims should try our way for a change.
Ronin,
I could have sworn that a suicide bomber blew up a bunch of, "Toasters" and sympathetic humans a couple of weeks ago on Battletar Galactica.. That's why the toasters rounded up the resistance members and took them out to the woods for the firing squad...
Just thought I'd throw that wrench at your gears...
BTW - USAF - SAC
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Shia the way to prosper is through commerce not war look at what Korea did in just a few years, Imagine what muslim countries could/should have been able to accomplish with the wealth they squandered. Your people deserve better, one benefit to democracy is politicians can and will be replaced for incompetence. With war you make it costly not to cooperate, with commerce you make it costly not to cooperate. In the end both methods do work.
I am glad to share commin ground with you Bulldog and you too Ronin.
Ronin, look they were always there and they always did attack but the more you increase your presence in the Middle East you will awaken these young men and bring more senseless fighting, I speak to young American soilders they say we are here to bring "freedom" who's kidding? they are there to satsify Haley berton and other oil companies.
As for fighting for 1,400 years, it's been more like attack genocide and leave. We tried to put up some resistance and fight sometimes they proved to be useless. Look Shiasm is very peaceful, we have things saying that even if you attack you are not allowed to pull out a crop that belong's to the enemy, because it is rightfuly not yours. Look at Ayatollah sistani, I am one of his followers, he said even if Half the shia population die we will not retaliate with violence, he is right in my opinion and on the correct path, believe me sir if we were animals the war would have ended with sunnies a very long time ago. But death is somethign we will all face, how will we anwser to god for our actions? Infact imagien there is no god, would be any better then they are? When i spoke of violence i am speaking on behalf of young men my age who are not as educated or have not read well enough, who comes home and sees his family blown up to pieces, he WILL pick up a GUN and he WILL go attack, he is young and his hormones are full of motivation and anger. I believe this does not concern any race, religion or country this is just plane old young ignorance. Please try not to say muslims, try to understand Islam why it is there, We must understand democracy and right wing governments, republicans, democrats, communists, we must all reach some sort of understanding. Earth is frankly bieng raped by man.
Doc I retired out of a different branch although I did have family in the Air Force. And I think you are right they did a suicide bombing, not very original, lol
But, at least they didn't blow up a bunch of innocent civilians...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Ronin,
Iran is very very volatile and hard to replace, Believe me the first thing the islamic republic did was to make sure they will not be removed from within and secure their positions. Half of Iran want peace the other half are willing to walk on land minds for the sake of shiasm, and Ahmedinejad the current president was one of those people during the Iran-Iraq war, perhaps your media does not show this but this man lives like an average man in Iran, his children ride the bus, he actually is helping people.
Ronin, Iranians are very nationalistic with this rheortic will just allow them to become more stubborn, you remind me of the shah of Iran, he said i will estbalish democracy, i will release prisoners before he was removed. This did not work, they simply got more angry and removed him. You must deal with what you have in your hand right now and just settle things. As for the neighbouring arab countries, then what can i say sir, but shake my head with disary and shame. I hope the people can change this. I hope the people can learn to live with the world and reach some form of agreement atleast. I am just against the bush administration's policys today.
I used the term “Muslims and Islam” interchangeable probably out of personal ignorance not out of an attempt to insult. I am actually glad we are having this chat because most of the Muslims I have dealt with have been Sunni although I have had personal contact with Shia on occasion just not often. I also try and keep mindful traditional Persian culture and traditional Arab cultures are remarkable different.
I don't want to see Iran fight but if you must wait until we get out of the way. A three way war can not be won.
Ronin,
Thanks for the perspective. I am not fooled by the "low" numbers of our boys being killed compared to the drunk driving deaths or ingrown toe nail infections of some of the spoiled in our own country. We lost 3000 in one homicidal attack on 9/11. I guess I just get frustrated seeing daily counts of our guys and no tally of the scum we've blown away--unless you can beleive the 600,000 that this article cites: http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=245457969874818
God bless our soldiers who are taking the fight to them for me and my family. My appreciation and prayers are with them.
Dr.
A world without the Middle East...aaaahhhhh...;)
Ronin,
Yes we are somewhat different, but we must also learn to respect one another and that's life. Hehe Iranians during the Iraq-Iran war used to say in farsi "God willing we will meet in Karbala." Reffering to Karbala in Iraq because it is a holy place for Shia because of the 3nd shia saint was killed there. A force of about 3000 surrounded Husayn and cut off his camp from their water supply. After a long and hard-fought battle, Husayn and his warriors (only seventy-two) were killed. His fight was to fight against oppression and tryanny, we try to follow his footsteps. Some sunnies don't understand what their leaders did, some are fine and just peaceful.
Americans are very defiant and proud people I respect them, they brought to us the Internet, and many other forms of science we would not be able to live without today. I would like to pay my respect for the 3,000 martyrs of 9/11, but i think this has opened another door for the world and maybe we should learn from these tragic acts and try to live and understand one another.
As for a war with Iran, I hope it does not happen but i do suspect a lot of people are willing to go fight and it will just awaken senseless anger. I heard accusations that the republicans want to start a war to win the congress maybe i am wrong. I do believe they need to throw up something for that Gay senator's case.
Shia,
I do understand Muslims and Islam. I have a copy of the Qur'an right here, next to me, along with a Bible, The complete writngs of Chuang Tzu, the Taoist, The Shaman's Doorway, The Book of Mormon: Doctrine and Covenants, The Book of Buddha, and finally, Do What Thou Wilt: A life of Aleister Crowley [a satanist]. All of them I have read, and understand.
But, none of them pretend to be a form of government...
That's why, historically, Theocracies don't work as a form of governmemt...
Jesus Christ said it best with a simple statement, "render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasars."
In other words, He, who the Qur'an acknowledges as a great prophet, and prophets cannot lie (according to the Qur'an), was accepting that Ceasar was the Emperor, and along with Roman governmental rule, should be respected and obeyed.
Jesus did not say that the Torah (Jewish Law) was better than the Roman Senate, or any such remarks...
It's quite obvious that He knew what he was talking about. After all, He was a prophet, and He didn't try to overthrow the government and put Himself in charge or anything like that...
Who am I to argue with a prophet???
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Wow I have never been compared with a shah before, although that might have been a veiled insult. I hope not as I didn’t take it as one. At any rate, there is no difference between you wanting to both protect and expand your country’s power and my attempts to do the same for mine.
You are probably right and our policies might be more geared toward Arabs than Persians but 90% of our Islamic study programs were paid for by the Saudi’s. We only get the Sunni side of Islam and it is often one sided as you already realize. I’m not sure there is a quick fix, unless large numbers of Iranian Muslims offer to work with our government to explain why our word do not resonate the way we expect them too.
One tip about Americans our politicians and parties are not that important. They are considered temporary employees nothing more. The American press might make us all seem insane with stories about celebrates carrying more weight than world events but they also have agendas. We as a people are far more faithful to which ever version of God we follow and much more worldly than most nations give us credit for. I for one vote for the individual and his stand on issues and could careless about political affiliation.
I do not think any American party wants another war. It might seem that way but we are cowboys, talk, play and act tough. An enemy gets no break and a friend is a friend for life.
Ronin, i did not mean it as an insult even though i dislike the man, he was very smart.
Bulldog, I liked your post and agree with it, It's just Islam is very simple and more simple then other's think it was brought upon the dark age of arabs and the peak of ignorance. Imam Ali (the prophet Mohammad's cousin) worked under a jewish man to indicate that if your boss is from another religion it does not matter. Yes i believe we should not over throw any government from the west and if the country is populated with sunnies well, what is the point establishing a shia government there? No loyality means no unity and our mission will fail.
Ronin, No one ruined the name of Islam but the Saudi government, They follow the most extreme form of islam (Wahabism). The split between the shia and the sunnies came here:
The Battle of Karbala was a military engagement that took place on 10 Muharram, 61 AH (October 10, 680) in Karbala, in present day Iraq, between the prophet Muhammad's grandson Husayn ibn Ali and a military detachment from the forces of Yazid I, the Umayyad caliph and is often marked as the event that separated Sunni and Shia Islam.
This battle is central to Shi'a Muslim belief. The martrydom of Husayn is mourned by an annual commemoration, Ashurah.
Choice between life and death:
On the 9th of Muharram, the camp had exhausted its water and could choose only between surrender and death. Husayn asked ibn Sa'ad for yet more delay, until the next morning, so that he and his men could spend the night praying. Again, ibn Sa'ad granted this request.
Husayn then told his men that he did not intend to surrender, but to fight. Since they were so heavily outnumbered, all of them were sure to die. He told them that if they wished to flee the camp in the middle of the night, rather than face certain death, they were free to do so. None of Husayn's men wished to defect.
CHOICE, that is real Islam my friend. something we are all entitled too.
Shia,
While I was writing my last comment to you, I did not see your post about the Republicans starting a war to detract from the Gay Senator's scandal, so in reference to that let me tell you a secret:
No one over here really cares about the, "Gay Senator" scandal... It is just a bunch of dirt the Democrats are keeping alive in the media in an effort to distract the voters from the real issues: like the Economy is booming, the Dow hit 12,000 points, gas prices are down, the Jihazis haven't been able to launch a successful attack in America lately, etc...
So, that being said, I can state with the utmost confidence that the Republicans definately don't need, nor do they want to start another war.
Sounds to me like someone's trying to yank your chain...
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Shia, I doubt you will understand but my reply would be "party down dude" which is the same as "geturdun" or Go for it" all American slang for do what you think you have to do. I can respect your dedication and see we have more in common than most would believe.
Shia and Ronin,
I've got to log off of here and work on my website for a while, so I'll let you two alone.
Both of you have had excellent points of view, and I thank you for your wisdom. It was great debating with you two, and I am extremely sorry I have to leave right now, but, duty calls...
Good night, and God bless you both.
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Thank you too bulldog and ronin.
I have to get to bed as well, It was nice to debate with you as well. Good luck and may god bless you both.
I am out also, God bless.
WORDS THAT SHOULD BE REPEATED; from Morgan
"This is the beginnining of the end in Iraq,my friends.Only success story is the Kurds who deserve to be supported in their legitimate struggle for a Homeland.Rest of whole sorry episode is entirely due to apalling IGNORANCE OF ISLAM by our stupid Leaders.
Am sure Fat Boy Al Sadr is laughing in his beard and gloating how the Infidels handed him great power & Shi ite Islamic Paradise on a plate...[Already those owning alcohol shops are being firebombed & eliminated while women deemed 'immoral'[for refusing to wear a hijab] are ripe for rape & torture by their Holy Bros.When I think of how much 'Infidel blood' has been spilt in Bush & Blair's GREAT DEMOCRACY ADVENTURE, I could weep with rage and anger.
Do these fools ever learn?
After Kosovo,now Iraq will turn a deadly Hornet's nest to target every Western country in the world with killing Jihadi skills honed in 'Vietnam of Middle East.'"
Perfectly summed up, Morgan.
And as to the question about fools learning? No, don't be silly.
Witness, good post. It was interesting to hear what Military personnel and Missionaries have to say. I think you are right, that even after all this time, most in Washington have only the vaguest idea of what Jihad really means.
One small point, though; you refer to Amarah as "one small Iraqi town"--actually, it is larger than the city of *San Francisco*. I think this is a major loss for allied forces. Iraqi forces are either very weak, or are in sympathy with Sadr.
Probably some of both.