And some Muslim leaders in Britain, of course, play the "discrimination" card, which they never seem to tire of doing even in the most outlandish contexts. From the BBC, with thanks to all who sent this in:
Cabinet Minister Jack Straw has said he would prefer Muslim women not to wear veils at all.The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult.
Mr Straw has said he asks Muslim women at his Blackburn constituency surgeries if they would mind removing veils.
Some Muslim women called his remarks insulting, but other Muslims said they understood his concerns....
Mr Straw's comments have provoked a mixed response from Muslim groups.
The Islamic Human Rights Commission labelled the article "astonishing" and accused Mr Straw of discrimination.
The Protect-Hijab organisation said the "appalling" comments showed "a deep lack of understanding".
But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he could understand Mr Straw's discomfort adding that women could choose to remove the veil.
Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be "dangerous doctrine" to tell people how to dress.
"If a person is making a statement about how they want to dress, I think it's pretty important we live in a country where you're allowed to do that," he said.
And Liberal Democrat president Simon Hughes accused Mr Straw of being insensitive.
"The experience of visiting their MP is difficult enough for many people without having to consider a dress code," said Mr Hughes.
Muslim Labour MP Shahid Malik applauded Mr Straw for being honest and said he was entitled to make his request as long as he respected the decision of people who refused the request.
Mr Malik said the remarks came on the trail of other media stories about Muslims and he appealed for calm.
"The problem is not necessarily what Jack is saying but the climate in which he's saying it," he said.
In other words, he's saying it at a time when Muslim mobs have killed for less. Better he shut up.
Every woman covered up is basically saying that onlooking men can't control their lust.
They are also saying men are not responsible for their actions.
It really is quite offensive but then who cares if men are offended?
(In Pakistan men are not responsible for their actions as raped teenagers get put in prison for adultery and the men don't. With that in mind a covered up woman is even more offensive because they are saying they want to bring that standard of sharia civilisation to UK)
On a lighter note -- there are no sand storms here so no need for certain desert dress styles!
"The Protect-Hijab organisation said the "appalling" comments showed "a deep lack of understanding"."
Indeed. Yes, it is appalling that a dhimmi has such lack of understanding in not to comment or criticise anything Islamic. Need to learn the hard way.
The sheer affront. The injustice of it! Know your place!
P.S. The Islamic Human Rights Commission. Is this a joke?
Allah knows best.
"Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be 'dangerous doctrine' to tell people how to dress.
"'If a person is making a statement about how they want to dress, I think it's pretty important we live in a country where you're allowed to do that,'" he said.
Given the times we are living in, I think that it's also pretty important to be able to reasonably identify people who are moving about in public, as a matter of public safety. I can remember a number of decades back when people were banned from entering banks wearing balaclavas because they had become the disguise of choice for bank robbers. Or the US ban on the infamous Klu Klux Klan's practice of wearing hoods, which may be a closer analogy, except the practice wasn't confined to one gender.
Aw come on-what's wrong with letting them wear veils? If that's what they want, let them. But if they are then targeted by those awful islamophobes and they cry of being picked on they have only themselves to blame. If they want to be foolish, they just might have to pay the price for it.
The other statement the veil is making is 'my culture is superior to yours and I have no intention of integrating, or even trying to integrate'.
At least one shopping centre in Britain (http://www.bluewater.co.uk/default.asp?id=329) bans all headgear that covers the face or head, 'with the exception of religious headwear'. I've already emailed them to point out that the sight of a robed figure wearing a mask is far more worrying than a teenager in a hooded anorak, particularly as the association between Mohammedans and bombs is now so clearly in the public conscience, but they haven't answered yet.
Perhaps I'll try again now Strawman has jumped on the bandwagon.
THIS THING STINKS!
Jack Straw has represented Blackburn since 1979 and the Muslim vote makes the difference between him winning and loosing his seat. He is a lawyer so you can bet your bottom dollar he has covered himself with the local Muslims before opening his mouth. He is a senior member of the Government with "Strong links" to the Muslim community.
Ask yourself why is he saying this after 27 years? Is he trying to say - "Look we are not the creeps you thought we were."
I don't see why the veil should cause so much upset. If a woman doesn't want to expose herself to total strangers, then that's her business. Why should anyone force their opinion upon her? I mean, no one seems to protest when a women goes topless or something, so why this? I'm puzzled...
Oh dear! Give this news a couple of days to travel the globe, then the car burnings begin. One more day before the Embassies are targeted!
It will, no doubt, be the fault of the Jews!
I can see why muslims may be offended by this. Its like asking the sikhs to remove their turbans, or mormons to do away with their modest attire. It's an intrusion to a person's personal moral beliefs. They're minding their own business, so why bother them?
And certainly I agree, this thing shouldn't be used to justify any sort of violence from the muslims. That would be foolish and counter-productive.
"Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be "dangerous doctrine" to tell people how to dress."
The women have a right to wear the veil, and everyone else has the right to say that wearing the veil makes them appear evil, stupid, and makes the veiwer uncomfortable. And govt.s have the obligation to refuse to allow people to be veiled if it is a security concern.
I also have the right to say people shouldn't wear baggy trousers around their ankles, showing their boxers. And they have the right to make fools of themselves and wear such trousers.
It's called freedom of speech and freedom of opinion. Get used to having your habits critisized if you plan on living in a Western country.
As an aside, I hear people critisize female topless sunbathers all the time. Not men, mind you....
Commonsense
Not living up to your handle I am afraid.
It is a cultural thing, in Western society a covered face is exclusively associated with cowards and thieves. Unfortunate maybe but it has been so for a couple of thousand years.
Mohammedans believe
men are superior to women,
that women cause chaos
with their lustful nature,
bringing fitna to the world.
So they dress both beauty and a hag
in a voluminous suffocating bag,
cover their hair, their face
to make them nonentities
and keep them in their place
in the ummah, next to the slaves.
Comments Robert Spencer: And some Muslim leaders in Britain, of course, play the "discrimination" card, which they never seem to tire of doing even in the most outlandish contexts.
From The American Heritage College Dictionary: discrimination -- 1. The act of discriminating. discriminating -- 1a. Able to recognize or draw fine distinctions; perceptive. b. Showing careful judgment or fine taste. 2. Separating into distinct parts; analytical.
We need to play the "discrimination card" and make no excuses for it.
In the movie Kandahar,
about the taliban
in Afghanistan, the mohammedan
uses the burka to hide in
from his enemies.
Beware the wolf in Islamic clothing.
Remote control,
discrimination is a word
that has been given
the newspeak spin.
It just goes to show what a utter snake this wetched piece of humanity is.
There is talk that he might stand for Blairs position, but as he is seen as so pro-Muslim even the Labour party can't stomach him and of course you can forget about the voters completely.
So what does an aspiring leader do, try to make himself look like a leader.
Mr Straw, once a snake always a snake, it just seems so manufactured that I could not even keep a straight face thinking about it.
And the stupid thing is that those Muslims who don't happan to be in on his little game will most probably stick a fatwa on him, while the voters will still despise his weak and cowardly selling out to these barbarians. Pathetic!!!
commonsense, you are not showing much common sense here
are you ok with people walking around with bike helmets covering the whole of their face?
are you ok with people walking around with this? especially around banks?
http://www.losangeles.altervista.org/City/immagini/Oggetti/passamontagna.jpg
(sorry I don't know what is called)
In some western countries, it's a CRIME to go around like that.
The burka is exactly like the above examples. Saying that a female won't ever harm anybody is stupid, cos, muslim womans are into jihad too, and you can never know who's under a burka.
I can see why wearing the veil has so much appeal for some Muslim women:
* it's an easy way of saying "up yours!" to the non-Muslim population (Muslim women are perfectly aware of how off-putting and creepy other people find it.)
*You can demonstrate that you are more modest, and thus a better Muslim, than mere hijab wearing Muslimyas.
*You can put a brick through someone's window or try to break into a car and not be identifiable by witnesses.
*if your face resembles the back of a bus, it must have particular appeal. people might even think that you are such a stunner that it would cause too much of a sensation for you to show your face in public.
*You can let pre-pubescents wear it to remind them that they are already sexual beings as a kind of looking-glass equivelent to the way some underage girls wear mini-skirts and make up - except that the kaffir hasn't a cultural tradition of revering a paedophile.
*Because your husband will be one of the few people who can see your face it will remind him that he owns you, which is good for a marriage, don't you think.
* It provides some protection against airborne diseases.
Of course, one disadvantage is that it might cause the thought to flicker across the minds of the majority of the population that perhaps these particular alien life forms ought to be returned to their own planet.
"Of course, one disadvantage is that it might cause the thought to flicker across the minds of the majority of the population that perhaps these particular alien life forms ought to be returned to their own planet."
Wally, I can't stop laughing!!!
The Islamic Human Rights Commission.
Now there's an oxymoron.
wallyUK forgot one more reason for a muslim woman to wear the veil:
* so she can go out in public with her boyfriend(s) without her family finding out!
Robert:
Although you take Shahid Malik to task for his comments on Straw's position, as I read this story their positions seem quite close, if not identical. The problem with both men's position is that it is "not prescriptive", to use Straw's term, when it should be. A veil, even if over the hair only and not over the face, obscures an identifying feature that in an age of tightening security and surveillance hinders identification and accountability. Not only that but as part of the militantly "separate" identity of an ideologically separatist group, it is an affront to the host society and its values. It should be prohibited in law in all public places. Period.
As for Shahid Malik, in a recent interview aired on the CBC I have heard him make scathing criticisms of multiculturalism as a failed policy that has created great harm, and insist that Muslims who are unhappy in Britain should leave. So is he really the bad guy that this thread portrays him to be? Perhaps there's information about Malik that I'm not presently aware of. If so, I'd appreciate it if someone could enlighten me.
I'd be interested in your comment on this, Robert, or anyone else who wishes. Thanks in advance.
Aardvark, you write "The other statement the veil is making is 'my culture is superior to yours and I have no intention of integrating, or even trying to integrate'."
You have the right point but you did not make it strong enough. What the veil is saying is that your culture is worthless and we will destroy it. We want to take away everything you cherish and enjoy and reduce you to second-class citizens in what will be our country. No art, no music, no education for women, no science, no joy, no laughter. And we are united and working to that end, using your own freedoms against you.
That is what is repellent about the veil; it announces that its wearer is an enemy but one I am supposed to welcome into my home.
If it was just a bizarre creation and fashion statement of Vivienne Westwood's, I would not care for it, but I would not loathe it.
Continuing to scratch my head over the question I raised about Shahid Malik in my last posting, it suddenly occurred to me that Malik was one of the three MP's involved in the so-called "Change your foreign policy or we'll blow you up" affair back in August, so perhaps this accounts for why he's on Robert's sh**list.
Still, he does seem to be capable of making anti-Jihadist statements as well. I'm trying to get a clearer picture of what this guy is all about so whatever help give me a clearer picture of his profile would be much appreciated.
Non Muslim girls at state funded Islamic schools in Britain will have to wear the hijab according to Dr Mukadam on BBC radio 4 Moral Maze:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml
TRANSCRIPT:
'Ian Hargreaves “What kind of behaviour would you expect from a young non-Muslim girl coming to your school? Would she, for example, be expected to dress in a way that conforms to conservative Muslim values?
Dr Mukadam: “Yes, we have a school uniform and that means wearing the hijab and the jilbab, and any parent that wishes to send their kids to the school, the school has a uniform policy whether it is for Muslims or non-Musliims. They have to abide by that."
Hargreaves: “Would you be prepared to compromise that for funding?”
Mukadam: “We are a faith school with particular values and we expect when we put out the policies like any other school that the pupils follow these policies. If they are not happy with these policies, there are plenty of choices around.”
'
The most interesting thing in all this is that even Jaq al Straw, ever mindful of the electoral impact of any affront to the religion of peace, more than amply represented in his Bradford constituency, now finds it convenient to be seen to be making a small stand against the creeping islamisation of the UK.
This change of direction from an astute and relatively high profile political player will not have been made without substantial research into its appeal to his electorate.
I wonder if even he has felt the first breaths of a cold wind of change gently brushing his cheek.
Dr Muhammad Mukadam is principal of the Leicester Islamic Academy and chairman of the Association of Muslim Schools. His school will receive state funding as from September 2007.
Amercainingermany, it is really really mad. The thing is, people in England are scared to object to this madness cause of the thought police.
As I said on my first post THIS STINKS,
1) A government minister said she wants to see Hijabs on TV.
2) There has been a minor fuss about banning the BBC's women TV announcers from wearing crosses. See blog "UP POMPEII"
3) Jack Straw requires removal of veils. But as one hijab'd woman said on TV only a tiny minority of Muslim woman wear veils.
No - They, the "New Labour" government are up to something and strange as it may seem I think the objective is item (1). Think about it. Create a huge fuss about something irrelevant and in all the shouting no one will notice the quiet arrival of the hijab on TV.
We are being conned again.
I say keep them covered in ghostbags. Muslim women are FUGLY!!!
Wasn't Jack Straw a card carrying member of the communist party when he was at university ?
Don't the communists want to wipe out all religion ?
Just a thought .
In most Muslim cultures through South Asia, South-Eastern Asia, and even parts of Africa. women didn't wear the veil at all until the late 1980's. You may check any ethnographic or anthropological pictures prior to that date to verify this fact. The research takes time, but it is enlightening.
Now they try to sell that S*** (sorry but there is no other synonime for the veil) as if it was a tradition of the Muslims.
The veil is in fact a powerful symbol of global Islamic militancy. Not a tradition.
rocky
Very true it was rare to see one in Britain before 9/11, now there are a lot more of them.