The Islamic doctrine of abrogation

Dean Esmay is still at it, busy muddying the waters about the principle of abrogation in the wake of his debacle at the hands of Michelle Malkin. Now, many people will no doubt ask me again: why are you bothering with him? The answer is that this really has nothing to do with him at all, but with people who are sufficiently clear-minded and objective to be able to consider the facts -- and who, because they haven't had access to all the information up to this point, may think like Esmay, or be swayed by his arguments.

In responding to Bryan Preston's piece which touched on the Islamic doctrine of naskh, abrogation, Esmay says:

But, first off, please cite for me where the Koran says that a verse recorded later necessarily supercedes a verse recorded later. I don't think you can. (For that matter, find me that as a general Biblical principle.)

Aside from Esmay's incoherent request for a Qur'anic verse that says that what is written later cancels what is written later, there is a Qur'anic verse that says that when a verse is abrogated, the one that replaces it is as good as or better than the one it is replacing: "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106).

Thus we can see that abrogation, whatever particular form it may take, is indeed a Qur'anic principle -- although not, of course, Esmay's caricature of it as some idea that was is later always and necessarily cancels what is earlier. Esmay then also asks for a Biblical verse supporting abrogation, but here is his first fallacy: if something is a doctrine in one religion, that doesn't mean it is a doctrine in another. I don't expect Buddhists to keep kosher, and I don't look for Christians to teach the doctrine of abrogation. So all of Esmay's lengthy reductio ad absurdum about Matthew and Mark, which I have not quoted here, is indeed absurd, but not in the way he wanted it to be.

If anything the Koran makes clear that it is whole and complete--which means that no later part can supercede any earlier part, or vice versa.

The whole notion that "later is more important than earlier" is the sort of pseudo-logic that intellectual puffballs like Robert Spencer and Hot Air's Bryan trade in.

He is pretending that I have posited this as some sort of general principle of religion. Of course, I haven't, and neither has Preston. But more importantly, his claim that "no later part" of the Qur'an "can supercede any earlier part, or vice versa" is flatly contradicted by Qur'an 2:106, as well as by Qur'an 16:101: "When We substitute one revelation for another, — and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), — they say, ‘Thou art but a forger’: but most of them understand not." Note that 16:101, as well as 2:106, refers to the substituting of revelations -- that is, words of Allah, and probably portions of the Qur'an (although the Hadith Qudsi are also considered to be divine revelation, on par with the Qur'an, but they constitute only a small part of the Hadith).

How does this work? Consider the verses about wine. In one place the Qur'an says that wine has “some profit” (2:219) for mankind, but elsewhere declares it an “abomination, of Satan’s handwork” (5:90). Muslim scholars generally agree that the wine verses are a relatively clear instance of abrogation. Without abrogation, a pious Muslim would have to declare that "Satan's handiwork" offers "some profit" for mankind.

There is wide disagreement among Muslim theologians as to precisely which verses have been abrogated and which others have replaced them. Still, it has been a mainstream notion in Islamic theology that if a verse revealed at Mecca contradicts another revealed later at Medina, the Medinan verse takes precedence. In an earlier response to Esmay I explained how this principle of abrogation works for the Islamic teaching on jihad, and for general reference I will repost that material here, with some revisions.

Many traditional Islamic theologians and Qur'an commentators argue that violent material, such as sura 9, abrogates more relatively tolerant material such as sura 109. This is not a newly-minted view "cherry-picked" by Osama bin Laden; it is in fact a very ancient view. When discussing why Muhammad didn't begin sura 9 with the customary invocation bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim, "in the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful," an intriguing answer comes from a Qur'an commentary that is still highly valued today in the Islamic world, Tafsir al-Jalalayn. This is a fifteenth-century work by the renowned imams Jalal al-Din Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Mahalli (1389-1459) and Jalal al-Din ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Suyuti (1445-1505). The invocation, suggests this tafsir, “is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.”

Security’s removal by the sword meant specifically the end of many treaties the Muslims had made with non-Muslims. Another still-influential Qur'an commentator, Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.” He adds from another authority: “No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed.” And yet another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”

This idea is crucial as a guide to the relationship of the Qur’an’s peaceful passages to its violent ones. Suras 16, 29, 52, 73, and 109 — the sources of many of the Qur'an's verses of peace and tolerance — are all Meccan. That means that many Muslims, guided by commentators such as those above and the imams who teach from them, see these suras only in light of what was revealed later in Medina. Being the last or next-to-last sura revealed, sura 9 is generally understood as being the Qur’an’s last word on jihad, and all the rest of the book — including the “tolerance verses” — must be read in its light.

Ibn Kathir states this explicitly in his commentary on another “tolerance verse”: “And he [Muhammad] saith: O my Lord! Lo! these are a folk who believe not. Then bear with them (O Muhammad) and say: Peace. But they will come to know” (Qur'an 43:88-89). The commentator explains that “say Salam (peace!) means, ‘do not respond to them in the same evil manner in which they address you; but try to soften their hearts and forgive them in word and deed.’” However, that is not the last word on the subject. As Ibn Kathir notes: “But they will come to know. This is a warning from Allah for them. His punishment, which cannot be warded off, struck them, and His religion and His word was supreme. Subsequently Jihad and striving were prescribed until the people entered the religion of Allah in crowds, and Islam spread throughout the east and the west.”

In other words, Muhammad gave peace a chance, with the pacific suras, and then understood that jihad was the better course.

This view is also echoed by Muhammad's first biographer, the eighth-century chronicler Ibn Ishaq, as well as by another Islamic theologian, Ibn Qayyim, who is invoked by the twentieth-century jihadist Sayyid Qutb in support of the same view. And a modern-day Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, has taught that in the Qur'an, “at first ‘the fighting’ was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory.” He also distinguishes two groups Muslims must fight: “(1) against them who start ‘the fighting’ against you (Muslims) . . . (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah . . . as mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah (II), Al-Imran (III) and At-Taubah (IX) . . . and other Surahs (Chapters of the Qur’an).” (The Roman numerals after the names of the chapters of the Qur’an are the numbers of the Suras: Sheikh ‘Abdullah is referring to verses such as 2:216, 3:157-158, 9:5, and 9:29.)

This understanding of the Qur’an isn’t limited to the Wahhabi sect, to which Sheikh ‘Abdullah belongs. The Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik’s 1979 book The Qur’anic Concept of War (a book that made its way to the American mujahedin Jeffrey Leon Battle and October Martinique Lewis, and which carried a glowing endorsement from Pakistan’s then-future President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, who said that it explained “the ONLY pattern of war” that a Muslim country could legitimately wage) delineates the same stages in the Qur’anic teaching about jihad: “The Muslim migration to Medina brought in its wake events and decisions of far-reaching significance and consequence for them. While in Mecca, they had neither been proclaimed an Ummah [community] nor were they granted the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. In Medina, a divine revelation proclaimed them an ‘Ummah’ and granted them the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. The permission was soon afterwards converted into a divine command making war a religious obligation for the faithful.”

The three-stage theory of the revelations about jihad, culminating in the command to fight to impose the Islamic social order over the world, is bound up with abrogation, as the earlier stages give way to the later. This is the view of Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Qayyim, Ibn Kathir, the compilers of the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, and a host of other traditional and mainstream Muslim commentators. Here is a brief contemporary Muslim explanation of the principle. Only Dean Esmay thinks I made it up.

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Robert

http://www.publispain.com/mike_tyson/imagenes/index.gif

vs.

Esmay

http://www.filmmakertimburton.com/peewee.jpg


Esmay looks like pizza pie.


(Thanks for the explanation re abrogation, Robert. )

"Without abrogation, a pious Muslim would have to declare that "Satan's handiwork" offers "some profit" for mankind.

Brilliant!

Had you wished to invent a straw man to set up and then demolish, you could not have done better than the real-life protagonist who dismays again and again in the article above, but who, no doubt, just like the figurine of fun played by Ray Bolger in the famous film, marching along with the Tin Man and the Lion and Dorothy herself fi sabil Wizard, would still maintain (and it might even be true), that with the thoughts he'd be thinkin', he could be another Lincoln....

If He Only Had a Brain.

After a rebuttal like that if I was Esmay I would just pack up my internat career and call it quits.

What an ass!

From the comments-
XXXXX,
what are you trying to prove to us? that you and robert spencer can exactly recapitulate the foul jihaadi logic that allows some muslims to become suicide bombers or terrorists?
great, we know already what they think.
you are just validating them.
if spencer is such a great scholar, why doesn't he find things in the qu'ran that contradict the jihaadis?
i suggest he has neither the nads or the scholarship.
besides, he is selling books to you two digits. ;)

Because the "things" do not exist. The imams and clerics that preach the violence know the qur'an and hadith. How can you find "things in the qu'ran (sp)" if they are not there.

The concept of abrogation was invented to explain why a psychopath contradicted himself in his rantings over the years. Naturally, as dementia increases with age, he was bound to become nastier later on. And naturally, muslims prefer the nastier quotes for inspiration, while using the earlier quotes for image. There are two korans in that sense.

Personally, I think it is all irrelevant, this discussion with those like Peters or Esmay. Muslim culture is inherently anti-social, and who knows how many muslims actually have read the koran to the point that they can recite what is in it. Yet, they are hell bent on destroying the west anyway. That is all I care about because that is all they care about. If it wasn't this guy Mohammad with his little mein kampf in 570 AD, it would have been a guy named Yusef 20 minutes later with something similiar.

Yes, we can debate the nuances of the Koran til hell freezes. But people who will excuse the muslims, the naive, the leftists, and the muslims themselves, don't care about the smoking gun evidence in the koran, even if you show them the passages right in front of their noses. They rationalize it away as nothing more than an historical document written a long time ago. They will never admit, oh yes, you are right, our programming is corrupt. In the end, it will still be because of poverty and Israel. So the point is mute for those people.

I know islam is bad because of their fruits. The book could be full of children's stories and I would still detest the culture that could produce such murderous people for 1350 years and who are even more convinced now that their final victory is just around the corner. Nothing can redeem their image. Nothing can excuse them. And nothing more is needed to condemn them. I know them by their fruits.

Re: When Atheists and Secularists Quote Scripture

The equation of violent Old Testament verses with violent verses in the Koran is not a valid comparison because the Koran is considered to be dictation taken by Mohamed (via the angel Gabriel) directly from God and is believed by Muslims to be the exact words of God. In Judaism and Christianity the books of the Old Testament are considered inspired by God, but not dictation from God. There is a well established tradition of interpretation of the books of the Old Testament in Judaism and Christianity that relegate violent passages in the Old Testament to being verses reflective of a more primitive era or allegorical stories (Joshua, e.g.) that make a point.

The Koran is not considered a story to be interpreted or having an inspired human element involved in it. It's not the Gospel according to Mathew, etc. It's God speaking without the human element. It's dictation. It's all God speaking. So when God says kill the unbeliever-that's an order directly from God.

What don't you understand about a direct order from God? is the difference between the Old Testament and the Koran. The violent verses in the Old Testament are not dictation from God, but are coming via inspired (but very fallible) humans.

I've just read Dean Esmay's blog for the first time - what an idiot the guy is. He has a narrow, and narrowing, world view. He is PC to a fault and incapable of seeing that, no matter how many 'good' moslems he finds and interacts with, that the problem is not the person but the faith, the ideology, the belief. That 'spontaneous jihad' happens doesn't enter into his world view. He is incapable of seeing that evil happens, and is caused by, evil belief and, because of that, he is a most dangerous person. He has bought into the most perverse, and degraded, form of western liberalism that there is - namely, that all beliefs are equal because if anyone believes in one God then he/she must believe in the same 'one God' as everyone else - therefore everything must be alright and all we have to do is talk to one another. Worse, oh so very much worse, Dean Esmay has bought into the corollary that belief is not something that the law ought to look at because belief is about 'God and the Universe' and therefore not something that man should legislate about.

Such a position is inherently stupid because it neglects the possibility that that the 'one God' that islam believes in may be the evil one (which, of course, it is - no great brain exercise required to work that out) rather than God Himself. It is also a stupid position when one considers that islam, by its own admission in its own holy books - in as much as the word 'holy' can be used in the context of the evil that is islam - is completely antithetical to Christianity (and every other religion), to democracy and to democratic freedoms.

Robert, thank-you for this post and for your lucid rebuttal of Dean Esmay's position. That you should have to waste your valuable time on answering such an ignorant poltroon is regrettable and a sign of the times.

Dominic.

By your fruits are you known. (August22)

Subject: Dean Esmay

Do you see him invited into talk shows?
Do you see him quoted in anything that has more readers than his blog?
Does he have a blog? Who cares? How many care?

This blog chronicles what is happening at the junction of Islam and the Western world as we know it. It is important. Very important.

Well, I went there. He must be running out of steam, because instead of the same raging psycho rant he's treated everyone else to, I just got some sarcastic snarking. Maybe because all I challenged was his definition of "traitor" ... dunno. But I did touch on the "no such thing as a true moderate Muslim" thing, and it sailed right by him. But that is an incredible twist on the meaning of traitor he has ... that believing the enemy's propaganda is giving him aid and comfort, therefore one would be a traitor to one's country. Wow. The dude needs to seek some serious medications. But ... one more jab at it before beddy-by!

Re: Ray Bolger the straw man and the Wizzard of Oz.

Hugh-

Mohammad is the Wizard behind the Koran curtain. Dorothy and Toto see him there pulling the strings as the Wizard shouts "Don't look behind that curtain"! But in the end everybody (Tin Man, Cowardly Lion, Straw Man, Dorothy, Toto) face the facts that nobody has to make a pilgrimage to Oz anymore, that the Wizard is a big Humbug.


http://www.homevideos.com/freezeframes44/wizardofoz105.jpeg

Dominic --

"[Esmay is] incapable of seeing that, no matter how many 'good' moslems he finds and interacts with, that the problem is not the person but the faith, the ideology, the belief."

I suspect that Esmay would find it very easy to see that it is the ideology and the belief that is at fault, were the perpetrators white racist Evangelical Christians from the Bible Belt.

remote_control/

I suspect that you are correct.

Poor man. Pray for him. He needs as many of our prayers - or the secular equivalent (I'm well aware that not everyone here is religious and I have no wish to offend) - as he can get.

Dominic.

I suspect that Mr. Esmays source of income is - Islam.
The west in their desire to understand Islam may be paying him too.

Re: The Wiz -- Of course, as we all know, the source of the entire problem is the wicked witch of the West.

The issue of abrogation in the Qur'an is not as simple as Robert Spencer would like it to be.

Qur'an 2:106 and Qur'an 16:101 do not invoke the command of abrogation; rather, the verses are dealing with the idea of progressive revelation. This has been affirmed by many scholar of Tafsir (Quranic commentary). It would be more prudent if you read the preceding and latter verses of those verses rather than taking them out of their textual context.

Secondly, in the overall discussion of war in the Qur'an, it it interesting to note that Spencer fails to mention that the early Muslim community was officialy AT WAR with the Makkan Quraysh after the Hijra (migration) to Madinah and the expelling of the early Muslims and the confiscation of their properties.

This status of war continued until the Treaty of Hudaibiyah, which was subsequently broken by the Quraysh when they and their allies attacked a group that had a treaty with Madinah.

Hence, the status of war must be always the historical context that explains the circumstances of the early Muslims and the subsequent war-time actions taken by the Prophet.

It is quite convenient that all of this is ignored.

Robert said

this really has nothing to do with [Dean Esmay] at all, but with people who are sufficiently clear-minded and objective to be able to consider the facts

Is there an element of pride in that motivation too? Do insults like "intellectual puffball" from the Dean Esmays of the world really carry that much of a sting?

But we humans are all victims of pride at some point. And whatever the motivation, I learned alot from the extended essay on abrogation, which was not covered in as much detail in the books.

Murad Hasni:

You say: "Qur'an 2:106 and Qur'an 16:101 do not invoke the command of abrogation..."

You better notify the folks over at Sunni Path. They seem to think that 16:101, at least, has everything to do with abrogation:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656&CATE=1

As for the wars between the Muslims and the Quraysh, the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and the rest, you'll find extensive discussions of it all in my new book The Truth About Muhammad.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Special Guest,

I make no claims to piety, but you'll note that in my reply to Esmay tonight, I was careful to stick to the facts of the case.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

murad_hasni said

It is quite convenient that all of this is ignored.

Ignored by whom? By all major schools of jurisprudence of Islam? By the followers of Islam who are sawing heads and blowing up buses?

Why don't you spend your energies convincing your fellow Muslims that their interpretation of abrogation is incorrect. Convince them that the peaceful Meccan suras take precedence over the violent Medinan suras. Convince them that the violent passages were only temporary, and does not apply to the modern world. Robert is just reporting what mainstream Islamic thought is. We'll all be much happier when your work is complete, and Islamic violence is something we only read about in the history books. Please print your article in any publication in any Islamic nation, and tell us what the results were, if you are able.

Spencer should be proud. He's had the moral courage and intellectual grit to wade through the doctrines of mohammadism, instead of being content to repeat politically correct canards.

He did not content himself with the banalities of his time.

Any man that has allowed himself to be intimidated away from delving into the depths of mohammadism, ought to be estopped from spouting off on the topic.

And I for one appreciate that Spencer spent some time tonight going over this specific topic.

Recently finished reading Spencer's new book, The Truth about Muhammad. I now have a clear picture of many crucial and amazing events in Muhammad's life. I found the book a fascinating and fast page turner that to me seemed much shorter than the 200 pages it is. It's very clearly written, unfailingly polite to Islam but unflinchingly factual, and every step of the narrative is backed up by citations to the sources Muslims themselves consider most central to Islam. My favorite book to date by Robert Spencer.

I don't have any complaints about Robert Spencer answering Esmay. I think Esmay is a good foil. Something about him provides Robert superb opportunities to offer potent lessons about Islam.

Traeh

Talking about foils, I've noted this thread for the handbook; it's good to have readymade material handy, given the number of topics that are there.

I've just ordered both PIG and Mohammed - in the meantime, I've going at a snail's pace on the Sword of the Prophet

A question for Robert Spencer - or any other knoweldgeable reader:

Have the Imams over the centuries used the Meccan (more or less tolerant) scriptures to support the concept of taqqiyeh, or deceit, as a strategy to be employed in waging of jihad?

It strikes me as a natural argument, in a way. Tolerance could be used as a deception. Lull the enemy into a (false) sense of security trough promises of tolerance and peaceful coexistence whiles arming yourselves and preparing militarily for the ultimate conquest.

Dean Esmay is a fine example of a little knowledge being dangerous. The man is totally stupid when it comes to Islam. His arrogance makes him so because he does have the brains to figure it out if wasn't so self indulgent

Esmay should read instead of yapping like a chihuahua. Good place to start would be "The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion"

special_guest-

I don't think Robert is so much replying to Esmay as he is to the egotistical ignorance that Esmay represents, a smug and arrogant ignorance that is all too pervasive on this matter of the understanding of Islam. There are a lot of Professor Irwin Cory types running around out there, expounding on Islam and other matters, and they don't have a clue about what they are talking about, and egotism blinds them to reality. It takes guts to look at the facts without pre-judgement, it's a rare quality.

Gandhi once said that there are only two kinds of minds: minds that seek truth and minds that seek power. (Esmay seeks a petty power that gets its sense of importance by calling somebody a "puffball"). Gandhi said he was a truth seeker, not a power seeker. Gandhi was a truth-seeker and a very rare bird.

Esmay is a petty power seeker, but he peddles ignorance with hubris and represents a generic lack of knowledge and attitude that has to be spoken to, even if that means Robert has to put a close-pin on his nose as he answers Esmay, as he speaks to Esmay in Esmay's smelly pit of ignorance.

That's the way I see it. You may see it differently.

I think Gandhi's observation re truth-seeker vs. power-seeker minds is very clear on how people treat facts. Some people use facts to humiliate others or lie about or ignore facts or twist facts or use half-truths to gain a sense of power over others. Gandhi did not care if facts proved him wrong or ignorant on a matter. He adjusted to facts, reality and truth and that's why he grew to be a very great man. He was a truth-seeker. He was a flawed man, but a very great man.

GOOD MORNING ROBERT !

Can anyone tell me where this will all end ?

Will Islam ever reform or are we facing a never ending conflict that will escalate until no one is left to remember the West or Islam?

I ask these questions because the time to act is NOW. Dont spend money with Muslims, Educate your friends and family. Lobby your political leaders, stand for office, write to your media and politely inform them and correct them etc ...

Just do something.

Jihad Watch is helpful in our quest, but its actions outside of this blog that really matter.

Your thoughts Robert..

Churchill1939:

"Can anyone tell me where this will all end ?

Will Islam ever reform or are we facing a never ending conflict that will escalate until no one is left to remember the West or Islam?"

It can end in a number of ways in my estimation.
The stated goal by almost all adherents of Islam, including prominent world leaders, is to re-establish the Caliphate. The Shi-ite belief is that the Mahdi will return on his white horse (just as the antichrist in the Revelation to John by the way) and will bring about the return of the Caliphate. When this occurs, Islamic (Sharia) law will rule the globe. There will be no god but Allah. That is one possible outcome, should resistance not awaken.

Another possible outcome, in the face of reasonable resistance is a forestalling of the above actions. As we have seen, Islam likes to declare truces at times of weakness until such time as they regain enough power to strike out with confidence.

Incedentally, there are some VERY interesting parallels between the prophecy of the Mahdi (12th Imam) and the Revelation to John.

Excellent work as always Robert.

-Graing

Poor chump
I've heard it said that the best way to expose a fool is to let them have their say.
Dean Dismay certainly did this with distinction.
Quasi-apologists such as him and others with their ill-informed views and PC attitudes will only cause a delay in the inevitable acceptance of Islam as the greatest threat we face today. How much extra grief this will cause, only God ----oops I mean Allah knows.
Given the escalation of the Islam program and its accompanying atrocities, in time when the process of osmosis kicks in and the truth seeps through to Dismays brain he is sure to do a huge back flip.
We'll be there to catch you Dino cause you'll stuff that up too.

Mr. Esmay, in an of himself, is not significant, since he does not draw from scholarship of any reputable kind. His importance is that he is window into the kind of thought process that right now obtains in much of the chattering classes, politicians, academicians, and other media elites. Most of the these people's templates are variants of the philosophical outlook that prevailed in the Sixties and Seventies. Many of these people exhibit a disturbing tendency to want to pontificate about things in which they are deficient of knowledge. Most are not specifically religious and have no deep knowledge of Christianity and Judaism, having burned those bridges a long time ago. Fair enough. People have their reasons. However, it is that flaw or lacuna in their knowledge matrix that allows them to easily slip into the moral equivalence template. Hardly any of these people can hold a candle to Robert's knowledge of Islam. In fact, most of us here at jihadwatch, having read at least some of Robert's work, gone on to read the Qur'an and parts of Sunnah, read Bat Ye'or, and read Andrew Bostom are much, much farther up the learning curve than people like Esmay.

A truly liberal thinker would not take the stance he does. Rather, if Esmay were truly a liberal thinker and had an open mind he would immerse himself in the things we have.

"Hardly any of these people can hold a candle to Robert's knowledge of Islam."

That's true. I am a little jealous of such knowledge. Maybe Esmay might be jealous, too.

Robert's knowledge reminds me of a Yogi Berra comment about Sandy Koufax after the 1963 World Series. Yogi said, "I can understand how he won 25 games, but I don't understand how he lost 5 games. It's a nightmare to try to get a hit off him." (Note that Koufax had almost a strike-out per inning that year with a so-so team Dodger team that were World Champs on the strength of great pitching.)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml

True Yom Kippur story:

In 1962 Koufax, who is Jewish, was scheduled to pitch on Yom Kippur. However, the Dodger manager Walter Alston realized that and replaced Koufax with Don Drysdale on that day. To make a long story short, it was a bad day for Drysdale and he was hit hard by opponent batters (I think it was the Giants). Walter Alston and Dodger catcher Johnny Roseboro went to the mound as Drysdale was being relieved from pitching and replaced by a relief pitcher. Drysdale handed the ball to Alston and said, "I'll bet you wish I was Jewish, Walter."

Alston and Roseboro laughed. Later, reporters aked them what was so funny, and Alston and Roseboreo told them what Drsdale said as they were taking him out of the game.

I wonder why the drive-by-poster murad_hasni can’t reply to Roberts response? Why do the muslims that post here think that all they have to do is speak with authority and not quote muslim scholars and books (Quran, Hadith). If you are a muslim and you are going to try to refute what Robert says try to keep in mind two things:

1: Your personal interpretations of islamic texts are irrelevant. What is important is how the majority of muslims (or the violent muslims) interpret islamic texts. Most importantly, as far as we in the west are concerned we don’t care how you interpret you text it does not change the fact that millions of muslims are participating in jihad and killing infidels.

2: If you are going to make any claims support them with references. WE will decide for ourselves if you can support your claims with data. All of Robert’s claims are easily verifiable in islamic texts. Everyone who posts at jihad watch has verified Robert’s assertions through independent islamic sources, and we will do the same with you.

We are not brainless muslim robots you cannot convince us with lies, threats, acting like an authority, half-truths, and unsupported claims.

As I attempt to develop a reasoned and fair interpretation of what the Koran says, I have discovered the principal of abrogation. It appears this has been a key aspect of Koranic understanding for a long time. However, where I have run into a problem at a very basic level is; what is the accepted order of the sura of the Koran? I know it isn't the order of the suras as printed, so what is the correct order?

My limited research seems to indicate there are a variety of opinions through the centuries as to which sura abrogate which other sura. However, the order of revelation is critical and, oddly enough, I haven't come across anything to help me out on this.

Advise pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated. Thanks.

Akmatov,

yes, well that has been a problem for many of us. I have been chided by Islamics for assuming that the later supersedes the former--which as I was told isn't necessarily true--not in all and every instance . . . etc. . . . etc . . . etc.

Mind-boggling, isn't it? Well, guess what? It's supposed to be that. Whatever has been passed down is explained, can be explained, to demolish all counter argument.

To twist the minds of the opponents is an Mohammedan tactic. Hell, it's the strategy of the whole avalanche heading our way.

So, as much as I wish that I could help you, point somewhere where it is all neatly laid out for you (somebody I am certain can, but not I), I can only try to understand how they (Islamics) explain why the "revelations' where piecemeal and not all squirted out at once as if some celestial diarrhea.


here goes:


The Wisdom behind Gradual Revelation

“And it (is a) Quran which We have divided (into parts), in order that you might recite it to mankind at intervals. And verily, We have revealed it by stages!”

If Allah had willed it so, the Quran could have been sent in one revelation. Why wasn’t it so? An elaboration of the wisdom behind this is necessary, especially because we are often confronted with the same question from the opponents of Islam.

The gradual revelation was considered a blessing that Allah gave to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and to his ummah.

Following are some of the benefits of the gradual revelation:

1) To strengthen the resolve of the Prophet against the disbelievers

The Prophet was distressed and anguished by the attitude of his people towards his message. They ridiculed and mocked him, and claimed that he was a sorcerer, a madman, or that he was possessed by the jinn. By the continual revelation of the Quran to the Prophet, he was reaffirmed in his determination and zeal. This is what Allah alludes to when He discusses the graduality of the revelation,

“Thus (it is sent down in parts) that We may strengthen your heart thereby” [25:32]

2) To simplify its memorization and understanding by the Companions

The piece-meal revelations of the Quran made it easier for the Companions to understand, memorize and implement the portions that were revealed. If the Quran had been revealed all at once, it might have been difficult for the Companions to understand all of its verses properly. Yet, with gradual revelations, the Companions understood and implemented the Quran correctly.

3) To prove the truthfulness of the Prophet

The idolaters and the People of the Book used to ask the Prophet questions in order to outwit him, but every time Allah would reply to their queries. The Quran itself refers to this aspect of the revelation,

“And no example or similitude do they bring (to oppose or find fault in you) except that We reveal to you the truth (against this similitude), and the better explanation thereof” [25:33]

4) To prove the miraculous nature of the Quran

Indeed, one of the most outstanding miracles of the Quran was that it was revealed over a period of two decades and yet not a single of its six thousand plus verses is contradicted by another. Also, the order of the verses was not done chronologically – rather, the Prophet would instruct his Companions of the location of any new verses. So, the Quran was literally assembled out of fragmental revelations. It was as if an intricate puzzle was perfectly pieced together to form a flawless masterpiece.

5) To reveal the laws of Islam – the Shariah – in a gradual manner

The Companions during the Makkan stage were being trained spiritually so that they could form the nucleus of the future Muslim state in Madina. Once they had passed this stage, Allah then completed the revelation of the shariah in gradual steps, so that they could adapt to the lifestyle of Islam.

6) To ease the revelation process on the Prophet

The process of inspiration, or wahy, was a difficult one for the Prophet. At times, he used to sweat profusely, even on a cold night, because of the severity of the inspiration. Had the Quran been revealed all at once, it might have been too difficult for the Prophet to bear.

Source:
"An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan" - Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi, pp. 81-87
Companions of the Prophet

Akmatov,

yes, well that has been a problem for many of us. I have been chided by Islamics for assuming that the later supersedes the former--which as I was told isn't necessarily true--not in all and every instance . . . etc. . . . etc . . . etc.

Mind-boggling, isn't it? Well, guess what? It's supposed to be that. Whatever has been passed down is explained, can be explained, to demolish all counter argument.

To twist the minds of the opponents is an Mohammedan tactic. Hell, it's the strategy of the whole avalanche heading our way.

So, as much as I wish that I could help you, point somewhere where it is all neatly laid out for you (somebody I am certain can, but not I), I can only try to understand how they (Islamics) explain why the "revelations' where piecemeal and not all squirted out at once as if some celestial diarrhea.


here goes:


The Wisdom behind Gradual Revelation

“And it (is a) Quran which We have divided (into parts), in order that you might recite it to mankind at intervals. And verily, We have revealed it by stages!”

If Allah had willed it so, the Quran could have been sent in one revelation. Why wasn’t it so? An elaboration of the wisdom behind this is necessary, especially because we are often confronted with the same question from the opponents of Islam.

The gradual revelation was considered a blessing that Allah gave to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and to his ummah.

Following are some of the benefits of the gradual revelation:

1) To strengthen the resolve of the Prophet against the disbelievers

The Prophet was distressed and anguished by the attitude of his people towards his message. They ridiculed and mocked him, and claimed that he was a sorcerer, a madman, or that he was possessed by the jinn. By the continual revelation of the Quran to the Prophet, he was reaffirmed in his determination and zeal. This is what Allah alludes to when He discusses the graduality of the revelation,

“Thus (it is sent down in parts) that We may strengthen your heart thereby” [25:32]

2) To simplify its memorization and understanding by the Companions

The piece-meal revelations of the Quran made it easier for the Companions to understand, memorize and implement the portions that were revealed. If the Quran had been revealed all at once, it might have been difficult for the Companions to understand all of its verses properly. Yet, with gradual revelations, the Companions understood and implemented the Quran correctly.

3) To prove the truthfulness of the Prophet

The idolaters and the People of the Book used to ask the Prophet questions in order to outwit him, but every time Allah would reply to their queries. The Quran itself refers to this aspect of the revelation,

“And no example or similitude do they bring (to oppose or find fault in you) except that We reveal to you the truth (against this similitude), and the better explanation thereof” [25:33]

4) To prove the miraculous nature of the Quran

Indeed, one of the most outstanding miracles of the Quran was that it was revealed over a period of two decades and yet not a single of its six thousand plus verses is contradicted by another. Also, the order of the verses was not done chronologically – rather, the Prophet would instruct his Companions of the location of any new verses. So, the Quran was literally assembled out of fragmental revelations. It was as if an intricate puzzle was perfectly pieced together to form a flawless masterpiece.

5) To reveal the laws of Islam – the Shariah – in a gradual manner

The Companions during the Makkan stage were being trained spiritually so that they could form the nucleus of the future Muslim state in Madina. Once they had passed this stage, Allah then completed the revelation of the shariah in gradual steps, so that they could adapt to the lifestyle of Islam.

6) To ease the revelation process on the Prophet

The process of inspiration, or wahy, was a difficult one for the Prophet. At times, he used to sweat profusely, even on a cold night, because of the severity of the inspiration. Had the Quran been revealed all at once, it might have been too difficult for the Prophet to bear.

Source:
"An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan" - Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi, pp. 81-87
Companions of the Prophet

This argument about which verse takes precedence over the other and what was "revealed" first--that WE of all people expend so much mental ammo over, reminds me of the argument of yesteryear: How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?

Only a pinhead would worry about that one nowadays. What about which one of the excretions came out first and is over-coiling on the other? Same difference.

There's a small mistake in the article where it's claimed that the link at the words "contemporary Muslim explanation" supports the author's position.

I went to the link out of curiousity and found an explanation of why abrogation is a reasonable principle in the interpretation of this particular religious text.

The bulk of the article then is about abrogation as a justifiable scheme for interpretation, but not about how in practice abrogation is done.

In fact, the very last sentence states: "It is a science on its own in Islam to know the Nasikh [abrogating text] and Mansukh [abrogated text]."

This leaves me to believe that this contemporary Sunni author seems to be leaving a lot of room for abrogation to flow either from later to earlier or from earlier to later. I don't see a Medina rule and I don't see a rule that favors latest text.

Henryleroi:

Read again what I wrote: "Here is a brief contemporary Muslim explanation of the principle." That's all I said it was, and that's all it is.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Well, the Koran is nothing but a made-up book. There's no real understanding in the Lord except to kill or be killed. If something is wrong, they make it to be right.....it's a goofy book.

Dean Esmay has a choice - continue with his denial and deception or realize his error. Mr. Esmay can simply not deny the facts, the historical opinions of Muslim scholars and the current opinions of Muslim scholars. There is no ambiguity at all. That is what amazes me. It is hard to admit you are wrong for many people. The real men, the real journalists do, why can't Dean Esmay?

Sobieski, you know the answer already. It's ego, plain and simple. Esmay has gone off the plank, and instead of admit that he is all wet, prefers to pretend to a dryness that he does not feel, and that we can see is demonstrably false.

Solzhenitsyn in his great work THE GULAG ARCHIPEGLIO comments about such people, communists, in the camps, being ground down unto death, but who even there, REFUSE to admit that the great radical, communist dream is a fraud, and always was a fraud.

Very good essay, Sir.

Now, moving on the principle that problems cannot be solved at their own level, help your readers to understand how the Coming of Baha'u'llah changes Islam's dynamics, now that its mission has been fulfilled.

It is not necessary to believe that Baha'u'llah is the Glory of God, or that His Forerunner, The Bab, was the Holy '..one, like unto the Son of Man...' foretold by Christ Jesus, but it IS important that He is feared as such by today's Muslim clergy/governments, and they continue to mercilessly forbid the existence of, spread of or legalization of the Baha'i Faith in Moslem territories!

Again, thank you for an excellent essay reaching out to the seekers of truth in this world.

All this is very good - but what do we do? Years ago I said that Muslim immigration is a 'quiet conquest.' Mr. Spencer, what are you doing to inform European governments? Universities? the media? Corporations?

The problem with Islam is that it encodes Tribalism.

In other words we are dealing with a 5,000 year old problem not a 1,400 year old one.

The fact that the problem predates Islam makes Islam easier to defeat.

Civilization vs. tribalism.

Islam is uncivilized.

Tribal mores are easy. They are what we revert to when we become uncivilized. Leaders chosen by poison, murder, intrigue, or heredity with the governed having no say in the decision.

Civilization takes effort and tolerance and trust.

It takes dedication to truth.

"[Esmay] needs as many of our prayers - or the secular equivalent (I'm well aware that not everyone here is religious and I have no wish to offend)", writes Dominic/necessitasnonhabetlegem.

You need not worry about offending. If one speaks from one's heart, any resulting offense is the result either of the offended party's insecurity, intellectual immaturity, or their desire to be offended. This is why the Left -- and Islam -- is in a near-constant state of offense.

A prayer for another is an expression of love, whether or not its recipient shares the religious conviction of its author. No reasonable person could feel otherwise.

I think I more or less understand the concept of abrogation, realizing that the practice seems to be a much more slippery issue. It doesn't seem dramatically different from the Judeo-Christian biblical record of a gradual process of revaluations where the more recent replace what preceded them. For example, in Acts the Jewish dietary rules are abrogated by a new revelation regarding what is permissible to eat – hence Christians believe it is OK to eat Lobster, while the Jews believe they can’t.. The core concept isn’t especially odd, though gradual revelations via one prophet might be unique.

Where I’m stuck is on the question of what is the accepted chronological order of the suras. Reference is made to the Meccan suras and the Medinian sura, etc. But which is which? It has been stated that the Sura of the Sword, which is quite aggressive, abrogate more mild earlier verses. I had thought this would be easy to find, but like a lot of things in this general subject; you ask a simple question and things get very. vague.

Thanks for the otherwise helpful and interesting comments.







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