“If the ideology is countered and discredited, Al Qaeda and its universe will wither and die”

I am confused. I've always understood from JW that Al Qaeda preaches and practices Islam.

So if:

Al Qaeda = totalitarianism

and if:

Al Qaeda = Islam

then it stands to reason that:

Islam = totalitarianism

You do the math. Correct me if I'm wrong

Now that's what I'm talkin' about. Four out of five think tanks recommend Jihad Watch/i> perspectives for those who fight jihad.

This is good news. Now if we can remove those in power who continue to deny or ignore these strategies and replace those deniers with people who will act on RAND corporation advice we'll be getting somewhere.

The fact that this report still talks in terms of al qaeda shows that they don't get it. It talks about a need to discredit al qaeda. What nonsense. Islam remains a threat with or without al qaeda, or even without conventional terrorism for that matter. Da'wa is most successful without terrorism, in fact. Sharia law does not require terrorism to be implemented. It requires politicians, immigration, and political correctness.

What solution does the Rand Corporation have for that?

Not one mention in this brief summary that the Koran is the written guide for Al Qaeda.

So Islam "overall" is a peaceful religion now confirmed by the RAND Corp plus Bush + Rice.

Does anyone read the papers of Islamic wars all over this planet not directed by Al Qaeda from caves?

So , why isn't this being done ?

Where is a dedent Air America ?

Why are bureaucrats and politicians standing around with Kerry-like stupidity mouthing inanities and not being involved in this critical struggle ?

We should have hit squads, both literal and figurative taking on and taking out the enemy.

The United States could discredit Al Qaeda in the Muslim world by challenging its violent Islamist ideology and muzzling its leading proponents, an independent report released on Thursday said.

"Challenging its violent Islamist ideology" is precisely what western leadership refuses to do, because that ideology is based on the Islamic sources themselves.

The KKK attempted to call itself a Christian organization at one point, and was eventually repudiated by mainstream Christianity and responsible biblical scholarship. This is because the source text themselves cannot logically result in what the KKK was doing.

Not so with Al Queda and the Koran. Since there has been no effective effort on the part of those elusive "moderate" muslims to refute the violent jihadist aspects of Islam, we can only conclude that, when push comes to shove, the majority of muslims will side with the Koran and Hadith, which are inherintly violent. Unfortunately, the findings of this think tank errantly assume that violent extremism on the part of jihadist organizations is an aberration which the larger Islamic world is willing to confront. We already know better.

“If the ideology is countered and discredited, Al Qaeda and its universe will wither and die”

Here is a piece right from a Canadian website for Muslim youth and now they finally prove what I alleged almost 2 years ago when Middle east websites ran ads for Conventions in canada to learn about Jihad and teach the children about how to make canada an islamic state .
****************************

10. Usage of proper language plays a great role in Dawa. Instead of using "Holy war" to translate the word Jihad, use a more comprehensive and proper term, like, "struggle" or "striving". Similarly, avoid using "worship" or "being His slaves" for the word Ibada. Instead it would be much more appealing to use, "service" or "obedience." Try to use a language that is more appealing to North Americans.

11. Avoid generalizations. Our purpose is to communicate, not convert; it is to share, not scare. Avoid issuing ‘Fatwas’ or labelling them, ie. it's better to avoid generalizations like: "all present day Christians are atheists in practice", "all youth in the West are Religio-phobic", "all Jews are murderers", "all Hindus hate Islam", "the media always portrays Muslims as terrorists", etc. We all know there are always some sincere and moderate people in every faith and community. Similarly, media is merely a tool, which could also be used for Dawa and educational purposes. These generalizations can damage our Dawa work if used just for the sake of it.

12. Gender-consciousness is important! Let's not forget that Islam was the primary force of women's liberation, until some Muslims themselves began to adopt the practices of Jahiliyya (ignorant societies) by locking women up in homes. Point out the difference between Islamic ‘feminism’ and the Western feminism. Highlight the freedom that Muslim women enjoyed throughout most of Islamic history compared to the women in Europe. Despite all the stereotypes in the media against the role of women in Islam, it is surprising to see that, statistically speaking, more women are converting to Islam today, than to any other religion. Avoid talking about the virtues of polygamy, as there are less than 2% Muslim males in the world who ever practice polygamy, so it shouldn't be a hot topic to be used as a "tool" of Dawa.

here's the site for the whole scam to use Schools and Universities for the Dawa crusades.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/articles/display.asp?ID=24

Could it be that the RAND Corp is calling for a major reformation effort by Muslims of Islam? Is it calling for a Islamic verson of a Martin Luther?

Well it's quite obvious that if you ban/forbid Islam throughout the world, Al Qaeda will be included in that ban as well.

I would be intrigued to know what exactly this ideology "Al-qaeda" is supposed to hold, is. Surely just stating it will discredit it?

One step at a time, Jihad watchers. As someone once said: the journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step.

So you're gonna talk about discrediting this ideology and not even know what it is?

This is ridiculous. What is the point of discrediting al-qaida's source of ideology (the koran,hadith,muhammod(pbuh)) to counter al-qaida?
Who even cares about al-qaida??? The problem is not al-qaida it's the ONE BILLION FUCKING MUSLIMS WHOSE IDEOLOGY IS THE SAME AS AL-QAIDA'S. I THINK THATS A BIGGER PROBLEM DONT YOU THINK

Be ffair, bff; I said their ideology not their source of ideology.
If their ideology conflicts with their alleged source of it, then that would discredit them don't you think? And this whole thread is supposed to be about discrediting "al-qaeda's" ideology isn't it? So Who knows what it is?
We muslims are as confused as you are as to who could believe that small sporadic explosions can be a justifiable plan to take over the world.

bff; so you are saying that alqaeda, the supposed violent expression of muslim ideology is not as much of a problem as a billion peaceful muslims?
Sounds to me like you have been taught to hate a group of people you know nothing about.

One way to discredit their ideology is to publicize the ways they themselves discredit it. An example: Today's Washington Post has an article about a new tactic adopted by Arabs in Gaza. After Israel warns residents of a targeted building to get out before it's bombed, a mob of people gather around the building, knowing that the Israelis won't knowingly bomb civilians. Since they themselves, the Muslim Arabs, deliberately bomb civilians every day, they're unwittingly announcing to the world that they recognize Jewish ethics as superior to their own.

Arabs not only don't send warnings, they knowingly commit mass murder by setting off suicide bombs in buses and restaurants. Their excuse is that all Israelis are combatants (including babies). Well, if Arabs in Gaza henceforth gather around a building that the Israeli air force has warned is going to be bombed, then those human shields have defined themselves as combatants, right? The humanitarian response that Israel should now render is to announce that henceforth there will be no more advance warnings. That way fewer people will be killed.

The rationale for terrorism is thus shown to be self-contradictory, because it acknowledges the superiority of the enemy's ethics to that of the terrorists.

August 22 says:

'The fact that this report still talks in terms of al qaeda shows that they don't get it. It talks about a need to discredit al qaeda. What nonsense. Islam remains a threat with or without al qaeda, or even without conventional terrorism for that matter. Da'wa is most successful without terrorism, in fact. Sharia law does not require terrorism to be implemented. It requires politicians, immigration, and political correctness.

What solution does the Rand Corporation have for that

___

Well said.
Islam is the problem and Islam is the enemy.
Till Islam is confronted the devoted from OBL to Saudi royaly, however much in conflict with each other, will continue to work diligently to conquer the West. Islam is fine using whatever means available that elicits the least resistence...which could also include nukes but if we let them, just a good push from the big 'Mohammed'.

The symbols of this savage primitive people must be totally destroyed! Is the Kaaba worth a single human life? They must be shown that Allahu is not Akbar!

the Rand corporation has most of it right, although Al Qaeda’s violence is taken from the koran. that said l have less positive points to think that there could be reform, any reformer would be called an apposate and killed for it. l dont see too many muslims wanting to die to save their cult. its is easier to leave it. therefore you can do the cut and paste of the Rand corp. and when that does not work, you have to effectively physically destroy islam. muslims are on notice, either you reform now, or you will be history.

Wow it took 364 pages to prove muslims working for al qaida were bent on world domination. No doubt this was a multi million dollar research contract, now we need another study to determine how to get this story out. Then we need a study to determine who the muslims world will listen too and we need a continuing study to determine if the message is being received. Finally we can hire muslim moderates for millions of dollars to let us infidels know it is working. This project could keep RAND corp running for years and years. Maybe they can do it, al qaida is stopped cold, hoorah, now we only need worry about the other pious practicing muslims bent on world domination.

We are being scammed folks, this is meant to make us feel someone has listened and will do something to slow the spread. What is spreading is BS this plan will accomplish nothing. It will not slow the building of mosques, the push for islamic studies in our schools, the increased demand for student visas or demand made for our law enforcement and militaries to conduct “muslim sensitivity training”, it doesn’t mention nor control creeping shiria. I could go on but I would just make myself sick.

The Rand Corporation appears to be clueless about Islam - what a shame!

Defeating Salafism is a tiny part of the problem. There are hundreds of groups that are intent on overspreading and taking the Earth for Allah. Whether they use violent Jihad, the Caliphate, or Da'wa is irrelevant, for the effect will be the same - bad things for non-Muslims: conversion, slavery, dhimmitude, or death.

Truely amazing!

How much did this Rand study cost? How many people were involved in the research?

Who paid for these 300 some odd pages???

And they still don't get it!

All these experts, and yet I believe that the handful of casual posters before me, have it right!

AND ALL THEIR CORRECT OBSERVATIONS, THAT THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THE CALAMITIES ASSOCIATED WITH MODERN TERRORISM, IS THE quaran; IS FREE!

In their collective wisdom, the folks at Rand are PC, Multiculturalist, fools!

I am sure each one of these eggheads are paid the equivalent of two sanitation engineers and this is their tour de force? I have no idea what they have been reading, but these focus points have been out there for years both here, and from other writers.

And I agree, it is a bad strategy to focus on Al Qaeda, when there are dozens of muslim terrorists organizations out there, that WORK TOGETHER to some degree or another.

Until they start focusing on JIHADISTS and mulitiple types of JIHAD they will be misguided, as usual.

"The United States could discredit Al Qaeda in the Muslim world by challenging its violent Islamist ideology and muzzling its leading proponents, an independent report released on Thursday said."

This statement is false on its face. Muzzling al qaeda's proponents? How? Do we deny them the right of free expression? Do we kill them in the streets? Every al Qaeda death will only add fuel to al Qaeda's fire. Nothing we do will discredit al qaeda. Only Muslims can do that.

"The study’s authors recommended the Bush administration expand “decapitation strategies” to include ideologues, holding up as examples decisions by British and Indonesian authorities to either jail or deport hard-line Muslim clerics. “Preventing Al Qaeda’s ideological mentors from continuing to provide theological justification for terrorism could expedite the movement’s ideological deterioration,” they concluded."

This isn't 1964. We have al-Jazeera. We have the internet. We have the BBC. Even deported clerics can get their message out. Removing them from British (or any Western) society will not solve the problem. The movement's deterioration will come about only after it has been confined to Muslim countries with no opportunity to gain funding from outside sources, such as the drug trade. Let them kill their fellow Muslims and soon the movement (and "moderate" Islam) will be finished because there will be no one left to fight on either side.

King Hussein was allowed to throw Yasser Arafat and the PLO out of Jordan. He saved himself and let loose a scourge upon the entire world. The Egyptians exiled many of their Muslim Brotherhood Islamists. The world's largest Muslim country, Indonesia, is jailing or deporting clerics. Why? Are they not Indonesians? Don't Muslims believe in freedom of religion?
Oh that's right. Only Muslims can judge other Muslims. If they're jailed for the same offense in the West then that means we're "suppressing" Islam and persecuting its adherents.

Re: “If the ideology is countered and discredited, Al Qaeda and its universe will wither and die”

I have come to the conclusion that Robert and Jihadwatch are really more respectful of Islam than people such as Armstrong and others who reduce Islam to some piece of a mosaic in a multicultural dream. Jihadwatch really understands the nature of culture, that all cultures have some claims to supremacism in one form or other. Robert takes the supremacist beliefs-assumptions of Islam seriously and obviously doesn't buy the current Multicultural-Supremacist-dogma of Western culture. I think his view (and Hugh's)is real and will prevail for that reason.

I'm sure this site has caused many to think hard about the nature of belief systems and of culture. It has obviously got people at Rand thinking. "Thoughts are in the air" and are reaching the Rand think tank.

We have to say goodbye to the Multicultural-Stink-Tank to see reality on this matter. It is Multicultural dogma that blinds us to the truth re Islam and a real appreciation of our own and other cultures generally. This concept, as Robert has pointed out (a few days ago), is a dreamworld.

I don't think so.

More important than the enemy, is our will to fight them. We need to get our own house in order.

Look at Israel. They take out leaders, and followers all of the time - to worldwide condemnation.

Not that I don't think we should do it anyway, but it is hardly a priority, or difficult. One can only ask what took so long to come to this realization.

The answer, our will is so weak, we could barely see the option - take out Al Sadr, etc. It can not be overlooked that one reason it took so long to finish Zarquawi is a reluctance to do it.

Perhaps there are those (too smart for our own good) that imagine that Bin-Ladin's big mouth is serving some purpose. That the bile and vitriol is turning supporters and followers off (not to mention the bombs).

Whatever.

Any effort to discredit Islamania is welcome. However, it will be a monumental task, considering how brainwashed these people are and that this wretchedness has been around 14 centuries.

Deportation isn't such a great idea. The other day we saw a story here where one of those deported continued to spread his filth via the Internet from his new home. Serious consideration should be given to zapping the most militant of the peaceful ones instead of deporting or even jailing them.

It was Robert's comment a few days ago about Multiculturalism and it causing the media and others to live in a dreamworld that requires examination of the concept as a supremacist belief-assumption of Western culture. He's right folks, it is the main reason many non-Muslims are not facing reality and addressing the Jihad ideology. Multiculturalism is a supremacist belief that is not based in reality. The supremacist ideology of Islam has to be confronted. That's reality. Rand is addressing reality.

Part of the problem and not a small part is who Rand hired to conduct these studies. I have not seen the list but I’d bet big money they chose academics hired because of their degrees in islamic studies, history etc. All of them trained in the best islamic studies programs from our best schools. The same study programs funded and built with saudi money. This sound like a good idea to any of you? Why wasn’t Robert or Hugh involved in these studies? Robert is an established expert, non controversial and a best selling author. Who could they possibly hire that would be better? What books did Rand use in the study? Any of them include books any of us would have read? This smacks of paying a fox to develop a plan to guard the hen house.

This is a freebie, I don’t need any study nor require tax dollars, here is the solution. Fight! Yes fight, fight back using their same methods. We need to use violence when it is called for, control/limit immigration, monitor mosques and any other large meeting places. Keep the public involved (the real key). Expose their agendas, agents, which politicians are helping them. They want preferential treatment I am all for it. Muslims in prison should be segregated from the general populace, no more recruiting in prisons. No more cultural sensitivity, switch it with the truth, teach every child about sharia, expansion, jihad etc. We don’t need students. Poor muslim students will not feel welcome, damn I am all broken up.

We have been here before we made communists out to be the enemy of mankind and we fought back, with force when required exposure and education. We can beat these clowns but we have to match them blow for blow. We have to identify the problem and who is fighting against us and how. Many non muslim governments, agencies and organizations have chosen to side with them to destroy us, we ignore this at our own peril.

Ronin-

You make good points re the funding. Those who pay the piper do call for the music to dance to, but Rand is moving in the right direction and toward Jihadwatch style reality.

ISLAMSFORLOSERS-

As you know, they aren't the only folks who have been brainwashed by indoctrination. This supremacist belief in Multiculturalism is also for losers. We need someone with a handle MULTICULTURALISMSFORLOSERS and then we'll be more than half right. We'll be all right.

Frank,

I was not attempting to discredit Rands attempts as much as to show where they failed and why it doesn’t go far enough. They can do much more with their resources and should. If they really want to help then let them stand up, otherwise they simply drain our already limited resources and provide false hopes.

We just need to draw attention to simple and obvious deficiencies in the muslim faith :

muhamed was a pedophile, muslims must imitate him ...

He was, muslims do not deny this, they know this. Draw attention to it.

and then point out the obvious ridicule of the "moral relativism" argument. It is NOT natural to be a pedophile, not now, not in 632.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

Ow and there are lots and lots of them. Right now we can discuss them freely, let's not waste our chance.

>Much of the research in the RAND study was completed in 2004 but has never been released.

"Despite all the stereotypes in the media against the role of women in Islam, it is surprising to see that, statistically speaking, more women are converting to Islam today, than to any other religion." Posted by: ala-sux

Is 'bedroom jihad' that successful?

Pity our (foolish) western women, once they're in, they cannot out, nor can their children and grandchildren, stuck forever in slavery to allah.

RAND should do a study on western women converts to slavery. As future mothers, and baby factories for allah, they are a threat to our freedoms and civilization.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours

Pity our (foolish) western women, once they're in, they cannot out, nor can their children and grandchildren, stuck forever in slavery to allah.

We have only ourselves to blame for this.The west has not been aggressive enough to counter the Islamic Propaganda and Dawa

And allowing our goverments to persecute those that speak out against islam,as in the case of Nick Griffen

The study’s authors recommended the Bush administration expand “decapitation strategies” to include ideologues...

Now thats scary. I have nothing against discrediting Allah, the Prophet or Islam in general. I do it all the time. I know that the recommendation is refering to Islam and clerics, but there is nothing there to stop 'decapitation', of 'other ideologues' with 'other ideaologies. Those in power would love to have the ability to destroy 'other' ideologies...how sweet it is...
I trust the Rand Corporation about as much as I trust the CFR. 'Council on Foreign Relations', for those who dont know...

He's right folks, it is the main reason many non-Muslims are not facing reality and addressing the Jihad ideology. Multiculturalism is a supremacist belief that is not based in reality. The supremacist ideology of Islam has to be confronted. That's reality. Rand is addressing reality

Totally agree. However, Rand could have saved money and time by simply doing two things:

1. Believe the reasons bin Laden offers for his jihad.

2. Read the last sura especially 9.5 in the quran.

Not much to figure out as to "what" must be done. The fact is, it won't be done -- can't be done within the self-imposed constraints of multiculturalist secularism -- and the jihadist know it.

They are fighting for a divine purpose; the secularist materialist have nothing higher than their own fantasy world, which they themselves must define, to fight for.

Is their fantasy vision worth "dying for?"

Since it is merely "relative"; perhaps not.

The jihadists on the other hand have what they consider something higher than themselves worth "dying for," just like the kamakazi pilots of WW2.

The west is screwed, unless it reverts to a WW2 moral imparetive -- and it won't.

How in the name of Sam Hill can an America that is torn between secularism and Christianity (with a liberal sprinkling of Jews and others) police the Islamic conscience of North Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, and Insulinde?

If we have a "decapitation" strategy to go after the Salafist ideologues, it ough to be to be sure that the followers find the corpses of such jerks stuffed with raw pork sausage.

If you want to look at the study (Part 1 of it anyway), there's a downloadable version (in Adobe PDF form) at the RAND website:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG429/

It might be worth a detailed critique by somebody here at Jihad Watch.

Spencer, Fitzgerald, how about it?

As you know, they aren't the only folks who have been brainwashed by indoctrination. This supremacist belief in Multiculturalism is also for losers. We need someone with a handle MULTICULTURALISMSFORLOSERS and then we'll be more than half right. We'll be all right.

Posted by: Frank at November 19, 2006 12:04 PM

Amen to that. The multicults are the ones who have kept the doors open for this plague even after they should know better. The task ahead is truly monumental-requiring decades to reverse the PC mentality alone. I'm not so sure if we're up to the task given the dreadful quality of politicians the world over. It looks like a major disaster (Depression or nuke strike by the enemy) will be necessary to tackile this mess.

Can anyone tell me what "Jihad ideology" is? I mean, what they believe. If we could expose the flaws in their reasoning it would discredit them wouldn't it?
It's just that, as things stand, a group of people with an unspecified ideology hope to win over/conquer the West with very occasional explosions on public transport.
That is the weakest plan I have ever heard from an adult.

Sorry, this should have been:

www.usc/edu/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/

The reason this Rand think tank did not conclude that Islam and its foundational texts (Qur'an, Ahadith, etc.) are the bedrock sources for terrorism is simple: the people in the think tank have been infected with the PC virus, and when they approach this problem of terrorism, they begin with the PC Multiculturalist template already in place.

The PC Multiculturalist template is like a machine with a filter, and it does your thinking for you -- or, more precisely, it sets the ground rules for any thinking you do. With this template in place, Islam is guaranteed to be protected and sanitized through all the analysis and diagnosis the think tank will pursue: there cannot be any conclusion that will blame Islam itself.

That is part of the world domination thingy. Marry and impregnate as many women and have alot of children. Once these women become old, their husbands divorce them for younger gals. Their children are taken from them. There are many cases of american women who marry saudis. They get divorced and the saudi husband takes the children to saudi arabia . The mother never sees her children again. Someone should write some articles about that subject.

Western women do not realize how lucky they are. They become enamored by the sweet talking con artists of islam. Bet there are alot of western women who converted to islam wished that they never did.

Rep. Rangel Will Seek to Reinstate Draft

By JOHN HEILPRIN
The Associated Press
Sunday, November 19, 2006; 1:31 PM

WASHINGTON -- Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900376_pf.html

And still the multiculturalists-PC folks refuse to get it!

Now, the very people who want nothing but the destruction of the United States and EVERYTHING it once stood for, are now planning to prostitute the remnants of whatever patriotic feelings real Americans have, for exactly what purpose?

United Nations sponsered Nation-building and policing experiments!

And does this "draft" mean that our all volunteer forces are somehow unfit for the task of defending their nation?

No. They are the finest and best fighting forces the world has EVER seen! Their professionalism is second to NOBODY!

So what went wrong? What will still be wrong, even if the draft in the United States is reinstated and our draftees turned over to the leadership of pukes like general Solanas?

The conclusion, if you can reasonably call it that, offered by Rand and their so-called "study," makes it clear what is wrong!

The stubborn refusal to address the real problem to wit, islam and political correctness.

The multicultural-PC-globalist have squandard their military might on a nation building social experiment; have steadfastly refused to listen to their own American generals in the field; left their finest field personnel to face politically correct military courts at home, subsequent to admirably performing their military duties; these nefarious crimes against America are just to name a few things.

Even if every man, women, and child in the US were drafted into military service and forced into the front line combat, the entire exercise would fail in the end.

Why?

Because the multiculturalists now calling for the draft can offer NOTHING worth fighting for or believing in!

As traitors to their country, they have through legislation torn the heart and soul out of the nation and all the underpinnings which made America great.

In substitution for the most noble of aspirations among human beings such as "God," "Mom," and "apple pie," and the many unsaid things that these icons represent -- the traitors now assuming power can offer nothing but pompus lies, vacuous materialism, and lechary of the most sorted and putrid kind.

This military draft will NOT solve the problem in Iraq or anywhere else. The jihadists know this and they do NOT require a militrary draft! Their ranks are swollen because they believe in something not of this world and beyond themselves.

The multiculturalist-PC-liberal-globalist vermon don't get it fundementally; and will deny it when undeniable and objective truth manifests itself in spite of them!

What the US and its so-called "think tanks" need is a cause worth believing in; and the causes that all Americans believed in for generations -- these people loath with incomprehensiable rancor!

We must NAME THE DAMNED ENEMY and go after that enemy just as it is going after US.

The enemy is first the vicious multiculturalists destroying our country from within the halls of government; secondly, the enemy is the rabid ideology masquarding as a religion called islam!

These two ugly heads are attached to the same vile and poisonous serpent seeking to destroy all that was good and decent about America.

Go back to our founding principles upon which our nation came to be, and you will not need a draft!

You will have more than enough people willing to defend these honorable and noble principles; and the miltary forces populated with such individuals as these, who are lifted by a spirt that these multicultrualist like Rangel, Peolsi, Kerry, and Clinton, et al detest -- will be unstoppable.

Hi there

Interesting parallel to the cold war, but will it work actually? If we look at the underlying circumstances and culture it is very different. People in Eastern Europe shared the same culture with western europe and yearned to the material wealth and democracy here. That doesent necessarily go for the muslim countries and not even all of the part living in europe to day. Okay the wanna have cars and stereo but we dont share common cultural values in many aspects. You will have to remember that Soviet broke down due to lack of ressources to follow Reagan/US. Though i see many good points im not quite sure itll work

Aside from the obvious stupidity of this conclusion by persons who regularly read JihadWatch, I find detestable the notion that we must become more embroiled with the broken ideology of Islam in an effort to "fix" it by promoting an anti-Al-Qaida version of the thing.

This ISN'T OUR BURDEN and IT ISN'T OUR RESPONSIBILITY.

Our responsibility is to our ancestors and our descendants -- it is to preserve protect and defend the society and culture that has given us everything. This responsibility requires that we ruthlessly destroy our enemies who threaten our viability and our survival.

Islam cannot and will not be reformed by us -- nor do Muslims show any viable sign that they can reform it, or are willing to reform it. Given this FACT -- we really have few options, and our obligation is clear.

RAND study is contained in two volumes -

Vol 1 - thanks to Steven L -
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG429/

&

Vol 2 -
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG430/

Not had much chance to look at it yet, however, two Vols in pdf format download worth the read, after which we could comment.

A few points on this threat:

1. When RAND is talking about a decapitation strategy, they are not talking about chopping off the heads of people. They are talking about fighting against jihad by neutering the ideology behind it. That ideology is the "head" of the movement to be "decapitated". Look at the comparison to discrediting Marxism-Leninism; that was done by demonstrating that average people had more freedom and economic under capitalism than socialism; that's striking at the ideological head. It wasn't done by chopping off Gorbie's head.

2. The RAND piece is, overall, a step in the right direction. Criticising those problems that nevertheless persist is productive. Despairing over the lack of perfection, isn't.

3. The military draft, at this point in our history, is demonstrably a tool for destroying the capacity of America to fight wars. Some leftists are actually quite open that this is its purpose (famously Chomsky, for example). When you have a large, and extremely ethnically and culturally diverse nation (unlike, say, Israel), which has progressed to a point where it must encourage independance and belief in autonomy-plus-bootstrapping to maintain its economic base (the creative and productive output of the sort only gotten from free citizens), the citizens of that nation will not stand for a draft.

Attempts to draft them go against the freedomes they feel fully entitled to (because we've taught them they were so entitled since kindergarten), and which they've planned their lives around, and attempts to go to war under such conditions degrade into mass protests, and fragging, and despair-plus-rebellion-fueled hedonism.

This neutering of the American military is the intent of the leftists pushing the draft. The heart-bleeding about the underclass being economically "forced" to fight (despite the fact low-skill civillian jobs still give people a better chance to earn their bread here than they have for most of human history, and despite the fact that the stats on the volunteer army don't suggest an underclass, but rather a roughly middle-class makeup) are a smokescreen.

4. RAND discusses fighting jihad ideology by confronting the theological arguments which help it spread. The reason they are not saying that the jihad ideology is identical with Islam is that they understand that real, serious theological reform of Islam is a potential tool in fighting this ideology, despite the fact that this ideology is rooted in traditional interpretation of Islam, and despite the fact that for now most "reformers" are bogus.

Robert has consistantly maintained that, despite the large number of phony "moderates reformers", there is a tiny number of sincere reformers, who understand how the terrorists use mainstream theology to recruit, and who want to address this by reforming mainstream interpretation of Islam. He has maintained that many Muslims are not terrorists; this suggests that reformers could, possibly, if armed with solid reform arguments, recruit allies from the same group of Muslims from which the terrorists recruit.

Read this talk by Rushdie, for some related information. Specifically the part where he talks about an historical theologican who argued for understanding the Quran as necessarily an interpretive work:
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25464

The point isn't that we have to sacrifice our own futures to save these folks from what is really their responsibility (we shouldn't). The point is that, IF supporting the few real reformers, coupled with a hard fight against the center of terrorism -- jihad ideology and the mainstream theology behind it and the people pushing it -- mean an easier win for us, and a better future for our culture and children, it is worth considering.

5. A major reason that Western women go for Islam and for the men that sell it to them is the fact that, corny as it sounds, most women DO actually want a long-term romantic committment, plus children, and Islam is painted as providing this. To the extent that Western men adopt the Playboy lifestyle and remain teenagers into their 40s (after their female peers are past their prime reproductive years), it becomes increasingly harder for many women to get what most of them really want (husband and family), and a religion like Islam will begin to look appealing to many average women.

The solution has two parts.

First, we have to have higher standards for acceptable sexual patterns in our culture; this doesn't mean a vice-and-virtue police squad, it means raising sons and daughters differently (don't cheer on sons when they "score"; teach daughters that being a bit too, ah, boy crazy early on can hurt their chances of getting what they want later), and it means being clearer in the media (media reacts to demand, to an extent; guys who buy Maxim and Playboy and who publically celebrate and embrace that lifestyle well into adulthood are somewhat complicit in this) and in our social circles about the value of personal morality. It also means changing the educational instututions, K-BA. Reversing what was done to them in the 1960s.

Second, pointing out that the grass isn't greener; the totalitarian fix to the problem actually creates a litany of new, and worse, problems. In our system, you can work harder to find a good man; there's a problem but there's a way around it. In that system, you can be divorced against your will but can't yourself initiate a divorce, your daughters get half the inheritance of your sons, your daughters have only a fraction of the say in court that a man does, and your daughters, if raped, are more likely to be punished themselves than to have their attackers brought to justice.

6. Western civilization isn't withering and dying by my account; look at this major think tank taking a step in the right direction.

Western civilization gives its inhabitants a great deal of hand in determining its future. It only withers and dies if you let. You want to not let it? Use the free speech and free association it allows.

You are from a civilization founded largely on philosophies and theologies that hold that the future isn't absolutely certain, and that human beings have some agency in forming the future. And you are in a situation nowhere near as hopeless as that in which many Middle Eastern Christians, or Muslim opponents of jihad that fear to voice their opposition for sake of their lives, for example, find themselves. You have choice. So do the people around you, that you are free to argue with. Live with that in mind.

mrsmomomoto:

"The reason they are not saying that the jihad ideology is identical with Islam is that they understand that real, serious theological reform of Islam is a potential tool in fighting this ideology..."

1. They don't have to say that jihad ideology is "identical" to Islam; all they have to do is acknowledge that jihad ideology flows clearly and directly from Islam, like water from a mountain stream (or, more accurately, like sewage from a sewer).

2. You can't have genuine, effective reform of Islam unless reform-minded Muslims acknowledge #1.

Islam is a failure.

It is a political failure, for it locates legitimacy not in the expressed will of the people, but in the will of Allah, as expressed by him in the uncreated and immutable Qur'an, and further glossed by the hadith.

It is an economic failure, for despite ten trillion dollars in OPEC oil revenues since 1973, the Muslim oil states have everywhere failed to create modern economies, and show no signs of doing so now -- dependent as they remain on foreign workers for doing everything of significance.

It is a social failure, for it treats all women, and non-Muslim men, as legal and social inferiors, who are abused in many ways, and prevented from attaining to full equality.

It is an intellectual failure, for it offers a Total Regulation of Life and a Complete Explanation of the Universe that at every point discourage or even punish independent thought, free and skeptical inquiry, and has no way to reform within itself, as long as the Qur'an is not seen as a historical, man-created text but as something outside of history, and man, entirely.

Keep showing how Islam is a complete failure. Help to create the conditions where the most advanced souls in the Islamic world will be forced to realize the connection bewteen the political, economic, social, and intellectual failures of Islam, and what Islam itself is all about.

Do nothing to help them. Raise the issues at every conceivable opportunity. Show the connections outlined above.

It's all there.

The rest is merely filling in the detail.

Hugh's ideas are good. The problem is that these idiots don't care about how much failure Islam has brought them. They would rather invade the West and share the failure with us all than to straighten out the mess Islam has made in all of cesspoolia. After all, it takes a lot more work to create than to destroy. Look at Gaza for a prime example.

I thought maybe attacking Mo himself might be effective but I doubt it. It seems that all the dreadful things he did and said are points of pride with these kooks. It's not like they deny all those things either-they are fully aware of his acts and words. The worse Mo behaved the more admired he was. 1400 years of admiration for a disgusting pig like Mr. Perfect isn't going to be washed away anytime soon.

Keep showing how Islam is a complete failure. Help to create the conditions where the most advanced souls in the Islamic world will be forced to realize the connection between the political, economic, social, and intellectual failures of Islam, and what Islam itself is all about.

Fitzgerald's idea is a good one.

Unfortunately, like every other secular humanist, Fitzgerald has nothing to offer except materialism in exchange for the realization of the intellectual, social, economic, artistic, political, paucity as a direct link to islam.

Those who slavishly cling to islam are unmotivated by material things.

They are motivated by spiritual aspirations and affections, even if these need be mere prevarications wafting from the bowels of islamic ideology.

Thus, they hate you personally and loath the material "things" that you personify to them, regardless of how right minded and correct your thinking and consequent adjudication of matters.

Regrettably, they will reject your position out right on account of the spiritual component that you are unable to fully address; indeed, can not address at all.

For you sir, address the rational component of the human condition and yet they crave the spiritual.

You would perhaps deny a demarcation between the rational and the soul arguing that the two are one in the same. In contrast, they see the two as distinct and separable; indeed one superior and preferable to the other.

Like Virgil upon the precipice, you are not enabled to their satisfaction at least, to demonstrate how a leap of faith into the spiritual can be attain by supplanting islamic ideology with reason and worse -- material substitutions.

Achieve this feat, and you sir, will
have won the war of ideology agianst islam.

witness is right. Islam, as perverted and corrupt as it may be, fills a spiritual vacuum. No amount of secularism can compete with it, as crude as Islam's theology may be.

The only One who can conquer Islam is Jesus Christ. "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life."

During the Crusades, what was the motivating factor in defeating Islam? What was the common denominator held by Sobieski, Martel, Godfrey, Isabella, et al...?

Christianity.

How is it that, since the ascendancy of the Rand Corporation some 30 yrs ago, American foreign policy has more resembled a slapstick act put on the Three Stooges than an intelligent, self-interested, discplined foreign policy.

I'm not saying that it's Rand's fault, but it has been slow to criticize its paymasters.

* 2:216 * 4:74 * 9:111 * 8:12 * 4:96 * 56:22 * 38:51 * 55:56 * 55:76 * 56:22 * 8:74 * 9:2 *

You want peace from all these tiresome Moslems? Take away their Korans, Hadiths, Ishaqs, and other scriptures.

I think what is happening in the Sudan shows the difference between promoting a totalirarian version of Islam, a la Al Quaida, and a "docile" or even secular version of Islam. If the Dafur tribes joined the attacks on the Christians and polytheists in the south and and ate the Sharian line of the Arab Islamists, they would have been spared the slaughter from the government and their Muslim henchmen, the Janjaweeds. As bin Ladin pointed out, they were not true Muslims in this regard but rather apostates and deserving of death. The Janjaweeds killed Muslim tribesmen and burnt their mosques and in the fashion of Mo took the woman and loot as payment. As Robert once pointed out: "they were not Muslim enough" according to these barbarians.

Atheling,

You are absolutely correct. The vacuum has to be filled by something. The paradox is that some people hate Christianity as much as they hate Islam and would rather be destroyed by Islam than put their pride aside and even consider Christianity. Something about what a nun did to them back in third grade or maybe a sin that they committed that they can't admit to and won't stay quietly in the past, so the church becomes the target of their displacement.

Christianity appears to be the only force that has ever effectively battled Islam and beaten it back. When Don Juan of Austria won at the battle of Lepanto against an overwhelming force of Moslems, and defeated their navy for all time, he attributed his success to the Rosary prayers said to the Blessed Mother for her intercession.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWVhYWJmMDJlNzQwZWFhYWViM2FmNjE3MDY3MjZmZWQ=

We can either be right or we can win. The perceived oppression of Christianity cannot hold a candle to the reality of the suffocating tyranny of Islam.

I'm going to send the ACLU a Christmas card this year, along with a summary of Islam as a failed system ( similar to what Hugh has written above )

I'd send it to Muslim groups, but I don't think that it would make a difference. I think I'll send a copy to my newly - elected Senators and so on.

The christmas card campaign... I think I'll also send a card to Rosie O'Donnell, Elisabeth Hasslebeck and Barbara Walters ( I know she doesn't celebrate it... )

I tell people that I feel compelled to keep spreading this message. I tell them I don't really care what they believe - but Islam does and Islam will force its agenda on them if it has a chance. Small efforts do make a difference.

Islam is an "Error" - "Errorists"!
- some graduated and are allowed to put the "T" in front of the error to become "T-Error" and "T-Errorists".

By the way, I was talking to group of lawyers, in a country where muslim is a minority but which stages acts of t-error every day, recently and asked them to compare the constitution with the quran, sharia etc..
Furthermore I asked them to have every muslim sign the constitution of that country and outline the wrongs in the quran, sharia and have them deny it so that it can be not used as an apology.

That should quickly seperate them into two groups. Those who are not willing to sign will be under house arrest etc..

They liked the idea and working on it full steam.

I'll keep you informed.

Not to forget to mention to the post from above.

One of their strongest tools is the mass breedings without providing their kids with proper education.

This will also be dealt with. There will be nothing like having 4 wifes and 20 children and so on ...

Everyone will have to act according to their respective constitutions in the countries they reside. If they chose to suffocate with their own tactics in their muslim countries then its their choice.

Remeber, bin laden was one out of 53 kids, he himself has 27, makes 80 together.
Get their idea?

So you're gonna talk about discrediting this ideology and not even know what it is?

Posted by: maryam at November 19, 2006 09:26 AM Koran 47:4 So, when you meet those who disbelieve, smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them.Thus you are ordered by allah to continue in carrying out jihad against the unbelievers till they embrace islam. Hadith 196- Allahs apostle said I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say None has the right to be worshipped but allah. Do I Understand The Ideology maryam? Hard to not understand the ideology of KILL!And you pretend to be intelligent, silly girl.

First, I was asking about "al-qaeda"'s ideology, not Islam. Islam has strict rules about how to do everything, including fighting, and the laws of combat are honourable and restrained. It clearly and categorically does not condone the sort of activity associated with al-qaeda so obviously we are dealing with two different groups.
Secondly, you know full well that you could illustrate anything you like with a line out of context. Why didn't you use a verse about leaving the unbelievers alone, or the one that says "there is no compulsion in religion" to epitomise Islam? Or illustrate Christianity with the verse "I come not to bring peace but a sword"?
It is intellectually unsound and morally untenable to hate a religion without first speaking in person to a learned and pious member of that religion to see what his answer is to your objections.

Maryam,

like to play? I see

So, what sword has Jesus thought and brought?

"For The Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight." (Hebrews 4:12-13)

Fact Finder: Is the sword used figuratively in the Christian's Armor Of God?
Ephesians 6:17
The belt of truth.
The breastplate of righteousness.
Feet fitted with the readiness of the Gospel of peace.
The shield of faith.
The helmet of salvation
The sword of The Spirit.
Prayer.

God did not "draft" us into His Christian Church and then send us off into spiritual battle without the equipment that we need to win the war. If we use what God has given us, eternal victory is a choice, not a chance.

Maryam, show this to your Imam, OK?

Anything else, we can help you with?

Maryam,- "Error again" about your statement of the sword in Christianity.

You like to play? I see, I see

So, what sword has Jesus taught and brought?

"For The Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight." (Hebrews 4:12-13)

Fact Finder: Is the sword used figuratively in the Christian's Armor Of God?
Ephesians 6:17
The belt of truth.
The breastplate of righteousness.
Feet fitted with the readiness of the Gospel of peace.
The shield of faith.
The helmet of salvation
The sword of The Spirit.
Prayer.

God did not "draft" us into His Christian Church and then send us off into spiritual battle without the equipment that we need to win the war. If we use what God has given us, eternal victory is a choice, not a chance.

Maryam, show this to your Imam, OK?

Anything else, we can help you with?

Perhaps this one?

A Two-Edged Sword

For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.

-- Proverbs 5: 3-6 (KJV)