Why is all the pressure on the Pope, and why do the "two new developments" listed below put even more pressure on him? Why isn't there pressure on the Turks to behave with a modicum of rationality and decency?
"Pressure on Pope to rebuild ties with Islam," from Reuters, with thanks to Mackie:
PRESSURE is growing on Pope Benedict XVI to use a trip to Turkey this month to rebuild badly strained ties between the Vatican and the Muslim world.Two new developments last week – a shooting incident at the Italian consulate in Istanbul and news that Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan would not meet him during his visit – have given an added edge to the visit from November 28 to December 1.
I'm so tired of reading about how supposedly little the Pope knows about Islam from Muslims. I'm sure the Pope is an expert when it comes to Islam.
How do you rebuild when there was nothing there to begin with? He shouldn't waste his time going there....I'm sure he's got better things to do than listen to muslims tell him how peaceful they are.
What does "ties" mean? If you rebuild a "tie" what is that, exacty, when it comes to islam? Does that mean you have a cleric in Iran that you can call for love advice? Does that mean that you have a muslim country that you can visit for vacation? Does it mean that you are unlikely to be assassinated in a muslim crowd? Does it mean that there are clerics who will politely take your apology?
If any of the above mean "ties", of what importance are they? Why are they necessary? Why are they good? Why would a Pope require or want such things?
Honestly, I think "ties" are over-rated if that is all they are. Twist ties are not. They are necessary. Neck ties are also necessary. They add some panache. But a tie with the muslim world, if all that means is a decrease in the volume of their death chants, is hardly of any use.
In fact, that kind of tie is a hindrance. It prevents the Pope from speaking his mind. It prevents the Pope from saying what needs to be said. So, in that sense, it really is a "tie". It ties the Pope up. It fastens him to the politically correct world. It fastens his mouth shut.
And fastening is what a tie is supposed to do.
No wonder he's called upon to rebuild those "ties".
Mr. Robert Spencer wrote:
Why is all the pressure on the Pope, and why do the "two new developments" listed below put even more pressure on him? Why isn't there pressure on the Turks to behave with a modicum of rationality and decency?
The answer is because the story was written by Reuters. The "news" is in the question Mr. Spencer poses, but we will never see the "news" printed at Reuters. Look at the names of its correspondents and the rules they follow in writing stories. Their journalists follow the same formula. Who (we are the enemy); What (some atrocity has been committed); Where (anywhere); When (when) or Why (it was a person of color who was discriminated against, these are poor people who have no other alternative, its caused by the excesses of capitalism, its caused by religion if it is anything but Islam).
In addition to being irreverent and anti- civilization, many Moslem correspondents are hacks of the countries they are in. Reuters does not publish with an appropriate warning that the article has been written by a government spokesperson in (fill in the cesspool country). Look at the managerial staff of Reuters and you will see many Arab and Moslem names.
Reuter jounalists follow what I call the Perry White school of journalism. Perry White trained young Olsen as follows: If a dog bites a man, that is not news. If a man bites a dog, that is news. So it is no longer news when a Moslem cuts off the head of an infidel as this has become a daily occurrence. When a person burns a Koran or writes something bad about Islam this is news because we do not expect it and it is rare.
Notice that in this Reuters article no one takes credit for the article. Also remember Reuters is the company that recently suspended an employee for writing to an American blogger:
'I look forward to day when you pigs get your throats cut' at:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3256534,00.html
Bloggers need to flame these miserable journalists. Start sending emails to the journalist directly telling them they get an F in journalism. Tell them why they get an F. If I dislike an article, I send an email to the journalist telling the journalist you get and F and why you get an F. Perhaps we can re-educate journalists by pointing out to them how ignorant their stories are.
Some Reuter emails are at:
Reuters America, Arshad Mohammed, arshad.mohammed@reuters.com
Reuters America, David Wiellser, editor@reuters.com
Reuters America, Lawrence McQuillan, editor@reuters.com
Reuters America, Patricia Wilson, patricia.wilson@reuters.com
Reuters America, Randall Mikkelsen, randall.mikkelsen@reuters.com
Reuters America, Steve Holland, steve.holland@reuters.com
Reuters News Service, Editorial Contact Form, http://aboutreuters.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/aboutreuters.c...
Reuters, Feedback - Contact a Reuters Editor, http://www.reuters.com/-helpSection.jhtml?p=contactUs
Reuters, John Whitesides (Political Correspondent), john.whitesides@reuters.com
Reuters, Robert Doherty (Washington Bureau Chief), rob.doherty@reuters.com
I am sending Mr. Spencer's article to these emailaddresses with an "f" in journalism grade! Bloggers need to flame these journalists. Perhaps they can be educated. Their "zeitgeist" (world sense of history) is beneath contempt.
PRESSURE is growing on Pope Benedict XVI to use a trip to Turkey this month to rebuild badly strained ties between the Vatican and the Moslem world.
In other words, pressure to apologize.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
Given that they're intent on subjugating or murdering us, we want, need to have badly strained relations with these geeks.
If B16 folds, and he probably will, it will be shown that Ataturk understood religion much better than the Pope.
Assalamau Laikum all,
The world is constantly changing. Muslims should forget about Manuel II ...but so should the Kafur.
Turkey is very important to both religions...Turkey is the philosophical meeting of them...Based on it's location and historical signifinance, I like to think that Turkey is a sort of a sponge.
You can put in lots of different type of information ...islamic or christian into that country...squeeze it and you find this information falling in swates to differnt part of the country being absorbed by some and yet causing blooshed by others.
This is why it is so important for the pope to be careful...he has a duty to many peoples...his followers obviously but also peoples in Islam as many think of Jesus as a prophet of Islam and that he will be there rooting for muslims on final day....the day of reckoning.
Muslims know that they live for now but also must prepare for the here-after and the final day.
It is important for the pope to help in this regard and give out a constant, valid message to them regarding Islam and Jesus PBUH.
Why should the Pope rebuild these "frayed ties"? The Catholic Church has been more than accomodating for far too long as it is. Let the other side show some good faith for a change and rebuild those ties if that's what they want.
I think all the Pope needs to remember is the truth. islam is a violent, VIOLENT cult that hides itself behind religion. Ole mo was a violent male, with insane tendencies, which has since then wreaked havoc on the unsuspecting world. Any "god" that doesn't know the world isn't flat and the sun doesn't set in a mud puddle, isn't worth the admiration he gets.
The time has come to stop playing around, contain the people in this cult and put them ALL back in the desert so they can live like they did in the 7th century again. No modern technology, medicenes until they see the errors in their ways and are willing to act like decent people.
Why is the pressure on the Pope and not on Turkey? Easy. It's because the Pope is the suitor, and right now he's being rejected.
Reuters doesn't need to say anything to prove the point...
Where is Fitzgerald's essay on the sad state of affairs in academia?
Used to be that universities were open to free thought, open discussion, and disagreement. But no longer. Where did it all go wrong? When the hippies took over in the 70s, they turned our academies into seedy emporia of lock-step agitprop, and our seminaries into gay bath houses with Bibles.
The Prophet Mahomet - recently I was wondering, what exactly did Mahomet prophesy.
Mohammed tried his hand at the prophecy game several times, but couldn’t get anything right.
His worst gaffe came when he revealed that Earth was less than 7,000 yrs old (was this the birth Islamic science?) when he predicted that the world would come to an end in1070-1132 AD (i.e., 500 yrs from the days of Mohammed’s birth and death, respectively).
Plainly, this dark prophecy just didn’t pan out. So, when Mohammedans call Mohammed the “Holy Prophet” they are disregarding Islam’s self-acknowledged facts. But, then again, that’s what Moslems do.
What can one say about the Holy Prophet’s work, except that apparently he was every bit as anumeric as he was illiterate.
Or, he was neither Holy nor a Prophet.
There is not this kind of pressure.
this pope spent all his life having this stance on islam and when he was "elected" the other cardinals knew perfectly what they were doing.
Remember that Pope Ratzinger has been elected VERY quickly. Therefore the cardinals had a clear idea in mind. Other popes have been elected after days and days.
Those so called "advisors" are mere asskissers of NO value. The majority of the church is WITH him, not to mention the majority of people.
our favourite half-brained woman likes to remind us that muslim women have half a brain and should stay at home to breed.
"The world is constantly changing. Muslims should forget about Manuel II ...but so should the Kafur. "
kafur has already elected manuel paleologos as HERO of the day.
In kafur-land we admire brave people, not pedophiles, caravan robbers and losers like in islam
"Turkey is very important to both religions...Turkey is the philosophical meeting of them...Based on it's location and historical signifinance, I like to think that Turkey is a sort of a sponge. "
turkey is a cesspool like any muslim country.
"This is why it is so important for the pope to be careful.."
this trip to turkey will mean just one thing: tons of muslim stupidity on display. Bring the popcorn.
"Muslims know that they live for now but also must prepare for the here-after and the final day. "
we are eagerly waiting for the final day of muslims too. And it will arrive very soon.
Doesn't anyone else find the snub by the Prime Minister of Turkey to the Pope a real slap in the face?
If you go somewhere and your host says loud and clear he won't greet you or even meet you there ain't much chance for peacful reconciliation.
Still Fed Up:
Exactly. The Pope allows the Muslims to display their real intentions and Turkey is considered a "moderate, modern" Islamic country.
Watch how they act. Those who have eyes will see.
By all means il Papa - go to Turkey. Be insulted. Be ignored by the Turkish... because the rest of the world won't be ignoring you.
Naseem:
Jesus doesn't need a PBUH after his name thank you.
I believe this visit to Turkey has everything to do with glorifying the great Christian civilization that once populated Asia Minor. It is a step toward reconciling East (Constantinople) and West (Rome). Turkey and Islam have nothing to do with that reconciliation except for the fact that they happen to be the current tenants of historically Greek Anatolia and Thrace. The Pope owes the Moslems no apology. They are nothing more than an extraneous background picture for one bishop's pilgrimage to the see of another bishop.
Assalamau Laikum Johnb,
As you know muslims put a PBUH or some other salutation behind their esteemed prophets.
Jesus is considered to be one of the major prophets of Islam ...and therefore requires a PBUH as a mark of respect.
The major difference between what you and muslims believe about Jesus is that muslims don't believe that he was a shaeed...i.e. that he was not crucified...but went "underground" for 3 days.
This is very hard for me because I think that perhaps he was a shaeed....but I know very little so have to be careful. So for now, I'll stick to PBUH.
half brained woman, jesus is not in the same league as caravan robbers and pedophiles, stick it into your deranged brain.
Jesus doesn't need the islamic peace ( = INSULT)
StillFedUp, I'm sure the pbuh for ole mo, is because deep down. muslims are praying Satan will be easier on him. Maybe they think they can pray him out of Hell. When they say it after Jesus, they're trying to place him on the same evil level as mo.
Satan is laughing at them every second.
Naseem -
I'm sorry, but Islam has got Jesus ALL wrong. He is not merely a prophet -- Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus created everything, including Mohammad, and including you. So the correct response to Jesus is not PBUH -- but rather -- Lord!
Naseem-
Your Islamic 'Jesus' is an hilarious distortion of gnostic mumbo-jumbo, Arab folk tales and illiterate misreadings of Christian texts. The Quranic 'Jesus' brings clay birds to life in a show off to the other little kids - just the kind of thing 7th century Arabs might think was 'cool'. The true and sublime elements of Christianity, of Judaism of Hinduism, of Buddhism are totally beyond your horny as hell 'prophet'.
PBUH is something that is said of someone for whom their soul may be in question, because of their earthly deeds. It is like saying, God Rest His Soul. It is a wish that the departed may, hopefully, be resting in peace, because the fear is that they may not be. Because of their deeds.
No Christian would ever think of saying of Christ, God Rest His Soul, or any such thing.
Muslims say it of mohammad, because they have the good sense to know that people that rape, pilliage, kill, and rob, usually end up in the bowels of hades.
Thus the constant need to say PBUH, whenever his name is mentioned.
Muslims have this fear in the pit of their stomachs that mohammad is suffering in hell for his life of debauchery. And by extension, they too will end up there. It is fear that drives the muslim mentality. Fear of their neighbors, fear of their own families, fear of their countrymen, fear of outsiders, fear of foreigners, fear of Christians, fear of Jews, and ultimately, fear of God, fear of the afterlife and where they will end up for following such a man as a prophet.
This fear makes them bellicose. Makes them violent. Makes them jealous. Makes them say PBUH after saying the name. It is a mantra they must repeat, as they repeat their incantations a mile a minute while banging their heads.
He is not in hell. He is not in hell. He is not in hell. God, please, I hope he is not in hell. Peace be Upon Him. Please. Have mercy. On him. And me.
Hey Naseem, for your information, Jesus Christ was God incarnate. So he doesn't need your "PBUH" remark.
"No Christian would ever think of saying of Christ, God Rest His Soul, or any such thing.
Muslims say it of mohammad, because they have the good sense to know that people that rape, pilliage, kill, and rob, usually end up in the bowels of hades.
Thus the constant need to say PBUH, whenever his name is mentioned".
August22:
An excellent point. A bit speculative perhaps, but very perceptive.
"An excellent point. A bit speculative perhaps, but very perceptive."
Posted by: templar
It's a good point indeed what August22 wrote. I have myself been thinking about that one for a long time now. Perhaps I'll sum it up and write an article about it some day.
Assalamau Laikum all,
I must admit to being surprised that people are queueing up say that Jesus does not need a PBUH.
PBUH and Jesus are synonmous within Islam....I thought you peoples would be pleased to see him being respected...what gives?
Also Champ, if you peoples hate Islam so much, why would Jesus create Muhd SAW...only for him to say that Jesus PBUH was OK but me ...I'm the final prophet ...no arguments right!
I am confused by you logic...muslims do not believe in ressuraction...but 3 days after cruxification, Jesus PBUH asked for food...and his prophets felt his arm to see if he was real.
But then why not hang around and show yourself to the peoples...can you imagine what effect this would have had on the romans...who had crucified him earlier. THAT would have been the real miracle.....can someone please explain...
Freewoman:
On more careful examination of the thread, I just discovered that you were the first to mention the Mohammed in hell/PBUH insight. Sorry I overlooked you before (and anyone else I've missed who commented on this).
I'd never given any thought to this matter before, but I think you're all on to something here.
@Naseem
Learn everything you can about the Shroud of Turin. Then come back here to talk about Jesus Christ.
Naseem... Jesus wasn't a circus act, needing to show off his miracles for everyone to be amazed. A main element of Christianity is faith. If you were fortunate enough to believe, then peace will be upon you, granted by him, our Lord. Unfortunately, you believe in a false prophet, peace be upon him, granted by our Lord, Jesus Christ.
"I am confused by you logic...muslims do not believe in ressuraction...but 3 days after cruxification, Jesus PBUH asked for food...and his prophets felt his arm to see if he was real"
A simple demonstration of the reality of his presence, Naseem.
"But then why not hang around and show yourself to the peoples...can you imagine what effect this would have had on the romans...who had crucified him earlier. THAT would have been the real miracle.....can someone please explain...
By His ascension into Heaven, his action and power is subsumed into the presence of the Holy Spirit who enfuses Himself into the life of the Church, and by extension into the world. This brings about the transformation of the entire world, all creation, something the mere physical presence of the Lord's earthly body, by Itself, could not do. No matter what the impressive nature of any miracle, skeptics can always dismiss it and explain it away. This would have been the fate of the appearance to the Romans that you speculate about. Christianity, like all religions is about faith, not empirical proof.
The Byzantine Christian greeting: "Christ is among us" and its response "He is and always will be", (and others like them), confess this faith in the Lord's resurrection and ascension into heaven. Such phrases constitute an acknowledgement of the grandeur of the person of Christ. Like the other commentators note above, your "Peace be upon Him" is inadequate and masks a real security.
Perhaps you should explain this, Naseem.
"Peace be upon Him" is inadequate and masks a real security"
That, of course, should have been "... insecurity".
Naseem -
Jesus did "hang around" after his resurrection. He continued to minister to his disciples for about 40 days after he was crucified; before He was seen ascending into heaven.
Muhd SAW, along with other prophets, are mere men. Anyone claiming to ABOVE, or greater than, Jesus Christ, is a "false" prophet. And anyone other than Jesus claiming to BE Him, is also a false prophet. It is very simple, Naseem, so I hope this answers your question.
Naseem -
Are you able to buy a Bible where you live? If not, there are many websites you could access. Here is one you may find helpful in understanding who Jesus is:
http://www.dornaslighthouse.com/words_Jesus.html
I really like this website because it gives the Actual Words of Jesus. One book to read is the book of John, starting in chapter 1. In John, Jesus describes who He is. But don't stop there, try to read everything Jesus said in the Bible.
Sounds like you do have many questions about Jesus, and the best way to learn who He is, is to read it for yourself.
PBUH is a prayer for the dead.
It seeks to intervene with God, and with Justice.
"Mohammed, PBUH" is a prayer for Mohammed who is dead.
We are not to pray for the dead as their deeds in life are written in stone and cannot be changed.
Cannot be changed by God as that would deny the existence of Free Will, and ones exercise thereof while living.
Cannot be changed by the dead to avoid their respective Justice, should they deserve any.
Cannot be changed by us, the living, by our prayers of intercession.
Ones deeds in life are writ in stone. Fixed. Unchanging. Immutable.
And the same deeds are the basis for Judgment.
Mohammed is dead.
He has been Judged by the Almighty God.
He is in hell...burning with all demons around him.
And all the 'PBUH's uttered by all the One Billion Muslims in this world will not, cannot change that.
We are not to pray for the dead. The Appeal Process has ended for them. When they died...
The Pope's visit to Turkey will take place with the purpose, on the part of the pope, to exclude Turkey from EU membership, the possibility of which which he has rightly identified as an impending disaster. Since his Regensburg lecture has been characterisd by much of the western media as a gaffe, infelicity of phrasing or a result of inexperience in office he will have to finesse it. Having come up with the nearest thing to a polite apology he is willing to make, he will probably produce some impeccably diplomatic noises about Islam on this trip. There won't, however, be anything about us all worshipping the same god or any Koran kissing. Any problems about visiting mosques are unlikely to occur.What is important is for Europeans to see Muslim Turks raging, fulminating and all but frothing at the mouth. People will judge for themselves whether Islam or the Pope is to blame for the inevitable violent and disgraceful behaviour that the Turkish Muslims will indulge in.
"PBUH and Jesus are synonmous within Islam....I thought you peoples would be pleased to see him being respected...what gives?"
the mere fact that the idolatrers of a pedophile mention the name of jesus sicken us all
"Also Champ, if you peoples hate Islam so much"
no shit sherlock
"why would Jesus create Muhd SAW..."
jesus didn't create the prophet mohammed. He created mankind, some good people, some very nasty and sick individuals. Then some stupid people started following the ramblings of a mentally sick and twisted illiterate idiot that started a cult only to satisfy his lust and power.
And nowadays this cancer called islam is a problem for the whole world.
This is how it went in a nutshell.
"I am confused by you logic...muslims do not believe in ressuraction..."
we are not concerned about what muslims think or like to think. Illiterate people (perhaps the half of the whole umma) haven't got enough brain to understand greater stuff.
"But then why not hang around and show yourself to the peoples...can you imagine what effect this would have had on the romans...who had crucified him earlier. THAT would have been the real miracle.....can someone please explain..."
the romans have always been kind of braggart people. Always enlarging reality.
If someone said "jesus is alive" they would have taken it as another braggart talking. So no surprise over anything that happened then.
I wish everyone would avoid the vulgar and pointless responses to the likes of Naseem. They do not contribute anything. Of course a Muslim will try to defend Islam. Insulting her for it does not advance the argument.
Meanwhile, the Pope knows exactly what he is doing, and I can assure you, it has nothing to do with surrender. The Pope is not a European politician and does not have to seek the sympathy of the media - in fact, he knows he does not have it. So he has no incentive to follow their craven advice. He has already purged the Vatican of Muslim sympathizers.
OT, but delightful: two of our favourite Jew-baiters and Muslim collaborationists have just managed to make each other look incompetent and foolish. Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, went on a long-announced visit to see Hugo Chavez, caudillo of Venezuela and all-around clown. He had to stop in Cuba and come back because his emissaries had found complete chaos in Caracas, with Chavez busy with an election and having apparently forgotten that his London friend was coming. All of London is laughing itself sick. It is hard to say who comes out looking worse from this: Livingstone, who has been made to look like a cipher on the international stage, or Chavez, who has spectacularly confirmed that aura of incompetence, ignorance, and amateurishness, that has wafted around his administration from the beginning. If it makes Livingstone look ridiculous and beatable to his London electorate, it is altogether good news, too.
I am disgusted with the Pope. He has little faith, he vacillates, he engages in farcical "outreach" and "inter-faith" efforts with Islam, and in general he represents the lamentable state of Christianity in Europe.
I think that the need to say PBUH after uttering Mohammed's name is superstition. I don't care if a Muslim does it, as long as s/he doesn't expect me to do it.
Jesus made very clear who he was: the Son of God, God made flesh, the lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. He was the only way to God. He wasn't one of many prophets. He wasn't going to sit at a big table with God and other co-saviours; he wasn't just one of God's many representatives. It was the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost: the Holy Trinity: that's it, that's all.
Jesus warned against false prophets and said, "By their fruits you will know them". This meant that Christians were to judge others by their actions and not just by their words. Jesus encouraged people to use their God-given brains and discernment.
Any religion or person claiming to supersede Christ as the only way to God is therefore saying that Christ was not who he said he was. The two are not compatible. Muslims are sold a false version of Jesus Christ that contradicts Jesus' words as well as the words of His followers.
The Pope represents the Catholic church worldwide. I hope that his visit gives real hope to Christians in Turkey and that the hope is supported with action. At least Christians there will know that their Pope cares enough about them to make that dangerous journey.
Let the Muslim government leaders snub the Pope: they're just showing their true, ungracious colours. I still think they're trying to stay out of the line of fire.
I don't understand why Protestants and Catholics don't engage in a total effort to re/convert the Turkish population to Christianity. Why doesn't the Pope do some real outreach and ask the Turks to see the Catholic side of things from the inside. Do some Dawa of your own. If Turkey is secular then perhaps the Military won't really mind if they get another religion in the country to help temper the Islamist leanings of late in Turkey.
US Infidel:
It is not the Pope - but you - who has little faith. I have read all sorts of absurd slanders against the Pope in all sorts of quarters, usually made, I might add, by hard-left socialists and other miscreants, but this is the most patently ridiculous thing I have encountered anywhere. As the leader of the largest branch of worldwide Christianity, a faith which is based on the ethic of love for neighbour and the search for peace and reconciliation, he MUST bend over BACKWARD to preach this message until it is entirely exhausted. Be it noted that he is also making SERIOUS demands, LOUD AND CLEAR, of the Muslims for religious liberty in Islamic countries, something that was, unfortunately far less emphasized by his immediate predecessor, JPII. The Church's position is evolving under the leadership of Benedict's thinking, but it is a huge institution that can not be turned on a dime.
Not only that, but from a purely political point of view, in terms of public perception, and the willingness of Western publics to follow the Church and her Pope to wherever that may lead - a peaceful resolution of the issues between Christians and Islam or a more combative stance such as the sanctioning of war or even a renewal of the Crusades - he can only succeed, if he starts out from a position that is acknowledged to be moderate and peaceful, and alters it by gradual measures related to evolving circumstances and corresponding manifestly to the response he gets to from the Islamic side. And while I do not shrink from the prospect of war with the Islamic world, I also say, emphatically, let's hope that the response to his moderate methods will make this unnecesary, because, quite simply "war is hell". Nuff said on that.
To put it quite simply, it's "his job" to be a peaceful man and to turn the other cheek as long as possible. We have not yet seen this ethos exhausted. When and if it is, as it may be at some point, you can expect he, or his successor, will begin to become more blunt. Let's hope that that never becomes necesary. But, indeed, his faith would be lacking if he DIDN'T pursue the path of peace at least at this early stage in the so-called "clash of civilizations".
If you want to have a better sense of whether his methods seem to be producing any results at this stage, check out these links (you'll probably get the Italian version, but there'll be a link to the English translation at the top of the page on the right hand side):
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=90182&eng=y
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=87841&eng=y
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=93245&eng=y
As far as your suggestion on another thread for the appointment of Vuk Draskovic (something I thought was tongue in cheek at first, and wanted to respond to humourously, if at all) I'm beginning to think it deserves a serious answer, so it would be this. As an Orthodox, Draskovic, or anyone else like him, likely would essentially abolish the papacy, reducing the status of the Bishop of Rome to that of the head of a national church with a title like "Patriarch of Rome and all Italy" or some such thing, cutting loose all of the other Churches making up the present Roman communion to reconstitute themselves the same way. This would eliminate a powerful and important transnational institution (not to mention an important symbol of Western civilization) that Christendom presently still has to lead its resistance not only to expansionistic Islam but to stifling secularist relativism and a host of other evils confronting it in the present era and in the future.
So, sorry, but for a whole bunch of reasons, my money remains on Benedict XVI.
Jalandhar:
The secular nature of Turkey's government does not alter the priveleged position of Islam as the only official religion, nor has it prevented attacks of Catholic clergy, including the murder of Rev. Andrea Santorro. So for the time being, the Christians of Turkey are compelled to keep a low profile and avoid making waves. There is a great deal of persecution of Christians and numerous restrictions on them in Turkey at present. Perhaps Benedict's pressure on the Turkish authorities will get them to open the system up more, but until this happens, your suggestion would be very difficult to carry out, perhaps impossible.
Well said, templar. You've delineated the Pope's strategy very well. Might I add that it's not only socialist leftists who disparage the Pope but the Christian Evangelical Right as well. After all, they consider the Catholic Church to be the Whore of Babylon. In doing so they make themselves useful idiots to Islam.
"... it's not only socialist leftists who disparage the Pope but the Christian Evangelical Right as well. After all, they consider the Catholic Church to be the Whore of Babylon"
Quite correct, Atheling. And they should get over it already. I respect the historic issues that the Protestants of the reformation felt they had to stand up for, and their desire to maintain an independent form of ecclesial governance separate from Roman authority, but the hateful ranting of some of these groups, still carrying on after hundreds of years, is just crazy. Surely, they should realize already that there are worse things afoot in the world than "Papism". To be fair, some of them have gotten beyond all this, and more power to those, but paranoia still abounds in these circles. Very unfortunate.
A reading of the history of Jihad and Dhimma in the Middle East shows just how effectively Islamic oppressors exploited these types of divisions among Christians in those lands. So we all need to get over it and leave these ancient squabbles behind. They no longer have anything to do with the world we're living in today. I don't know if this old rivalry is what's bugging US Infidel, but if so, let's hope he considers the lessons of this history.
I hope that this trip helps better relationship for orthodox and catholics. Islam has to dissapear and the fistly, in Minor Asia, because it was the land where The Virgin lived her last moments in Earth and Sh John Evangelist, the galatians were the current Ankara, Esmirna, Efesius, and other minor asian cities are very important for the catholic church and of course Constatinople.
Long Live Asia Minor!
Pope Benendict XVI is going to Turkey in order to help promote Christian unity between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. This unity is so very much needed, between the Christian believers regardless of churches so that the good news of the Gospel can go forth to all the nations.
>>>Naseem-
Your Islamic 'Jesus' is an hilarious distortion of gnostic mumbo-jumbo, Arab folk tales and illiterate misreadings of Christian texts. The Quranic 'Jesus' brings clay birds to life in a show off to the other little kids - just the kind of thing 7th century Arabs might think was 'cool'. The true and sublime elements of Christianity, of Judaism of Hinduism, of Buddhism are totally beyond your horny as hell 'prophet'.
Posted by: poetcomic1
Let's blast them some Neil Young: (8) Helpless, helpless helllpplessss (8)
To the Muslims: If you want to be seen as loving, normal, God-fearing people...act like it. We will not lie for your benefit.
This concludes our broadcast day.
"... it's not only socialist leftists who disparage the Pope but the Christian Evangelical Right as well. After all, they consider the Catholic Church to be the Whore of Babylon"
Not all do.
Carolyn2:
"Not all do."
True, but some still persist in their bigotry against Catholics and the Pope.
Here is what CAIR stands for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s13D4JwpJUY
The reason the pope is going to Turkey is pretty straightforward. There are between 150,000 and 200,000 Christians in Turkey, of which about 28,000 are Catholic and about 35,000 are converts from Islam.
Who cares if Turkish leaders won't greet the pope when he arrives in Constantinople. The patriach will. We can all imagine that city still being Greek and Christian and the Turks are back in central Asia where they belong...at least for a day.
The Turks don't want this visit for this very reason. It reminds the world what Asia Minor was and how it got to be Turkish and 99% mohammendan.
As a previous poster wrote, let the Turks riot. The dhimmis of Western Europe need to see this.
Hi Paolo, would love an update on the politics in Italy.
Right on, PAS. I personally suspect that His Holiness is not at all perturbed by the "snub." I would be pleased to see him chuckle upon receipt of the news, clasp his hands and say "GREAT!"
This Pope is a brilliant intellect and a true, confident Christian shepherd, a man of prayer and of sure faith. He is not fooled by any of the whirlwind of Islamic and PC nonsense.
Maybe the two great Christian Fathers of Old Rome and New Rome will be able to put aside the sorrowful remembrances of the past (such as some disastrous Crusader behavior)and realize that the Crusades, the Wars for the Holy Cross are indeed not over and done with and that ALL Christians are in this together.
"True, but some still persist in their bigotry against Catholics and the Pope."
Posted by: atheling
As an "evangelical", I feel I have received more "bigotry" than I have dispensed. SO WHAT? I couldn't care less. All of it was so infinitesimal compared to the bigotry the average Muslim has for anyone of ANY other tradition.
It is high time Catholics and Protestants agree to disagree on non-essentials and agree to peaceably debate essential doctrine in love. I will be honest, to me, the Pope is just an incredibly learned, extraordinarily bright, self-effacing person courageously facing down huge risks to spread and defend the Gospel, even to backward hostile countries like Turkey. Any Christian would be stupid to not try to learn something from such a man.
"don't believe that he was a shaeed...i.e. that he was not crucified...but went "underground" for 3 days.
This is very hard for me because I think that perhaps he was a shaeed....but I know very little so have to be careful. So for now, I'll stick to PBUH."
Naseem,
May I remind you of a previous post:
Assalamau Laikum all,
....
To the modern westerner...the prophet Jesus PBUH did not die for your sins...he died for himself...because this highest concept of shaeed is lost upon your sorry lily white asses...things must change....and that's where your friendly neighbourhood imam comes in....book a consultation now Maggie....don't leave it, DO IT.
Posted by: Naseem at October 25, 2006 10:16 AM
Wow, Naseem, what a change of heart!! You HAVE been reading the Injeel!
Naseem,
can I return the favour and suggest that you go and visit your friendly neighbourhood Catholic priest who would be very willing to have the patience to explain the Truth that is Jesus Christ.
Personally, I would not go within coee of an imam, especially here in Sydney. I think that the reason for my sense of derision towards the fatuous imams of Sydney is glaringly obvious. They do not have a brain between them to bless themselves.
Jesus did in fact die for our sins, He did not die for Himself. Why else would an innocent man be so willing to give Himself up to be tortured and then die a very painful death? The Truth is written in the Scripture that you will find only in the New Testament, and definitely not in the false book of Scripture known as the Koran.
You ask about the reaction of the Romans, well that is a good question. I think that the answer is also very obvious. Jesus appeared to at least 500 people prior to His Ascension into Heaven. It is possible that He appeared to at least one Roman - the name of Longinus is one that I have heard mentioned in this respect (you will not find that appearance written about in the Gospels). The most important of the Romans would have to be the soldiers who were guarding the tomb. It is true that they ran off when the Resurrection happened. It is also true that they were paid to keep quiet. However, who knows whether they did in fact speak after they left Jerusalem? Mere speculation, I know, but Rome did have a fairly large number of converts both from amongst the Jews and the pagan Roman citizens. Then there is the Roman soldier known as Cornelius, the first Gentile convert to Christianity. It is also possible that Jesus appeared to him prior to His Ascension into Heaven.
Jesus taught us the meaning of LOVE. He taught us to love God, but also to love our neighbour. This to me is one very important reason to know and understand that Jesus taught the Truth, and Moohamood taught everything that is false. The deeds of Mo speak for themselves. He raped women, he plundered, he behaved like a brigand, he murdered those who refused to follow him. He deliberately set upon the Jews who lived in Mecca. He claimed that he had permission to have multiple wives, and his sexual contact with a 6 year old child can only be considered abhorrent.
Jesus taught discipline, but Mo lacked total discipline. Jesus is LOVE. From the Jewish point of view Jesus was a good rabbi, but they could not see that He was their long awaited Messiah because of their wrong idea about what the Messiah ought to be. Mo wanted to be seen as a prophet, and that is why he went into trances and the like, behaving like the priests of Cybele. However, Mo can never be considered as a real prophet because the fruits of his life are just so rotten.
It is by their "fruits" that you will know them. The fruits of Jesus Christ are pure. The fruits of Mo are impurity and evil.
Paolo and Templar -- you guys rock! :-)
I am disgusted with the Pope. He has little faith, he vacillates, he engages in farcical "outreach" and "inter-faith" efforts with Islam, and in general he represents the lamentable state of Christianity in Europe.
I was going to respond to this until I read the excellent commentary by Templar.
The only thing to add is that your criticism goes way beyond any sincere disagreement with the substance of what the Pope is doing and is more like a hit job intent on Pope Bashing.
One thing I thought of tonight is how Mohammed used the term anti-Christ. Does this imply that he realizes Christ was the salvation of the world and everything he espouses is meaningless bs meant for his own empowerment and glory? Any thoughts?
One thing I thought of tonight is how Mohammed used the term anti-Christ. Does this imply that he realizes Christ was the salvation of the world and everything he espouses is meaningless bs meant for his own empowerment and glory? Any thoughts?
Posted by: blue at November 6, 2006 10:26 PM
Bingo!
Islam is such a crock that in order to even have a veneer of legitimacy it had to steal figures from Judaism and Christianity. It's really ridiculous when the Koran says Jesus will one day stand next to Mo-why? Will people be confused as to what sort of character Mo really is and what he represents that Jesus needs to explain it?
TEMPLAR, and others,
the Vatican has reached out towards islam repeatedly, especially since Vatican Council II, which occurred in the sixties. So I understand some of the frustration about the Pope's foolish attempts at inter-faith dialogue.
I think we need a great deal less dialogue, and attempts at dialogue, and we need a great deal of fence building, and muslim immigrant evicting.
The times are far too dire for the same old, same old. Tired nostrums about dialogue don't cut it, not when the Christian West is up on the gallows.
I think the Pope needs to get tough, and start speaking out clearly, and that speech at Regensburg wasn't nearly specific enough to satisfy me.
His illustrious predecessors had no problem calling Christendom to arms, and that's about where we're at now. The Pope needs to come to the support of the President, the leader of the West needs the support that could be provided by the Vatican.
We're in a war, and if we don't act now, tens of millions more will surely die later.
This is the thirties, and we need action, and far less vain attempts at empty discussions, that go nowhere, and accomplish nothing.
It's sad, but it's true.
Many of his predecessors tried dialogue with killers, it didn't work too well for them, and it isn't going to avail him either.
its long past time for the pope to call for a crusade against islam and reform the vatican armed forces he has a right to do as the leader of a soverion nation and given over 1 billon catholics i bet there would be plenty that would volenter