Hamas consistently belies the benign intentions others continually try to thrust upon it. From MEMRI:
In the nine months since it came to power, and despite the PLO's demands, Hamas has not changed its views: It refuses to recognize Israel or acknowledge its legitimacy, insists that previous Israeli-Palestinian peace agreements will be recognized only if they serve Palestinian interests, continues to lay claim to all of Palestine, and, in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, offers only a temporary hudna (ceasefire). In addition, Hamas continues to express reservations about the Arab peace initiative of 2002, and to support resistance, jihad, and abduction of Israeli soldiers.TO VIEW CLIPS FROM THE MEMRI TV PROJECTON HAMAS, SEE:http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=157 .
The following are statements made by Hamas leaders in the last two months:
Rejection of Israel and Its Legitimacy
In an interview, Palestinian Political Bureau head Khaled Mash'al told the daily Al-Hayat: "Why am I required to [recognize] the legitimacy of an occupying [entity] that is sitting on my land when there are millions of Palestinians who come from the land on which this entity is sitting? It is true that there is an entity called Israel, but I do not wish to recognize it." [1]
At an October 20, 2006 Hamas convention in Khan Yunis, Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Al-Zahar stated that "Israel is a vile entity that has been planted in our soil, and has no historical, religious or cultural legitimacy. We cannot normalize our relations with this entity. The history of this region has proven [time and again] that occupation is temporary. Thousands of years ago, the Romans occupied this land and [eventually] left. The Persians, Crusaders, and English [also] came and went. The Zionists have come, and they too will leave. [We say] no to recognizing Israel, regardless of the price we may have to pay [for our refusal]." [2]
In a sermon in Khan Yunis, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya said: "Israel wants Hamas to hand it the card of recognition in the hope that this would lead to recognition by other Muslim countries. Israel may have been recognized by part of the Palestinian people and by some Arab countries. However, it [now] wants something more significant - the [trump] card of Islamic recognition - and it wants to obtain this recognition through the Palestinian government and Hamas..." [3]
Palestine From the River to the Sea
On the issue of a Palestinian state, Khaled Mash'al said: "The [Hamas] movement has agreed to [the establishment of a Palestinian] state within the 1967 borders and to a hudna… As a Palestinian, I am interested in a Palestinian state and I am not interested in the occupying state. Why do people require the Palestinians [to accept] the existence of two states as one of their principles and goals? The Zionist state exists. I [wish to] speak of my Palestinian state that does not exist. I am the one that has been denied [the right to] a state, to sovereignty, to independence, to liberty, and to self-determination. Therefore, my main [goal] is to focus on obtaining my rights. I wish to establish my state." [4]
Mahmoud Al-Zahar said: "We [aim to liberate] all our lands… If we have the option, we will establish a state on every inch of land within the 1967 [borders], but this does not by any means imply that we will relinquish our right to all the Palestinian lands. We want all of Palestine from [Ras] Naqura to Rafah, and from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river." [5]
Read it all.
Nothing that we good folk here at JW/DW haven't known already. They've been sayeing the very same thing ever since 1948. Only our media nd government have stuck their heads in the sand for some reason. Owning up to the truth would mean total war against the Arab states.
This is not new. Ahmed Shukairy used to say it before the Six-Day War. Yassir Arafat used to say it ("Palestine is just a small drop in the Arab ocean, from the Atlantic to the Gulf"), until he began to say other things to Western audiences with the usual hint-hint-nudge-nudge to his own adoring masses, and of course this is the same goal -- how could it be otherwise, given Islam, given the unending hostility that must exist between Believer and Infidel, the unending campaign to expand Dar al-Islam at the expense of Dar al-Harb? -- as Abbas, with that Homeric epithet "moderate" tacked on (for one example, see today's story of the Israeli attack in Gaza at YahooNews, written by an Arab who can't get enough of the fixed phrase "moderate Abbas").
The only thing that is new is that, just possibly, the comprehension of some Infidels has begun to be based, as it always should have been, on Islam. And where that is the case, tne not-newness is understood, is taken as a matter of course.
It is not new because Islam is not new. Islam does not change, and cannot, no matter how much money is thrown around by the Carnegie and other foundations, and various Western NGOs and governemnts to all those, from Khaled Abou el Fadl on (do google "Scholar of the House" and "Hugh Fitzgerald" for more) down or 3 up or is it 27 across?
WTH is wrong with people?
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/11/hezbollah_judge.html
People who keep on looking at ideologies are not trully looking for peace. In practice, Hamas is offering a long term truce to Israel and to have a two state solution without the recognition of Israel. In my opinion this is fair enough to start with. And I am sure if Israel proves good intentions to Palestinians, the palestinians will little by little drop these backward ideologies. Lets remember that Fatah has recognised Israel and dropped all hostile statements against Isreal from their constitution. Hamas will have to go the same route.
You can find many examples of such extreme ideologies in the world, even in the west. And in Israel there are political parties who have in their agendas the inclusion of West bank and Gazza to Isreal. Even worse, there are still in Israel orthodox parties that still dream of the greater israel from Euphrates to Nile.
So, lets not be naive here. Stop looking at ideologies and focus on reality if you want to have peace.
Peace
Of all the Islamic peoples the one I like the least is the palestinians. The Pakistanis at least kill jihadists once in a while and the Iranians let you know right off they hate you but these people are something altogether different.
They want us to feel sorry for them because they are refugees. They want our money. They want their mythical paradise. That's all you ever here from them "we want...".
One thing they don't seem to want is peace. From what I understand Palestine originally (in 1918) included today's Israel, the "occupied territories" and Jordan. Jordan has been independent for decades and yet these "refugees" refuse to call that place home. Could it be that even the Jordanians don't like them? They wanted to oust the king in 1970 and run the place but the Jordanian army (in possibly its only victory ever) defeated them. Even in a Muslim country the palestinians are a pest. They didn't want to live peacefully in the majority of old Palestine-they tried to capture it instead. Failing that, they now try to grab the last fragments of old Palestine-first the "occupied territories", then Israel itself. They can't do that right so what's left? Eternal victimhood. If they can't have peace then nobody else can either. Even when they get a piece of land what do palestinians do? Wreck the place, as Gaza proves.
No, these greedy losers need to be dealt with harshly. King Hussein had no qualms about wiping out the palestinians (they even preferred to be captured by Israel rather than fall into Jordan's hands) so why not let Israel settle the matter once and for all? Either these palestinians emigrate elsewhere to the ummah or face total destruction in war with Israel. No money or aid for these professional whiners-they choose war, let them suffer the consequences. This miserable rabble deserves NO sympathy at all-just an iron fist. Any people who use women and children as shields, are suicide bombers, cheer madmen, break agreements, endlessly whine about their lost mythical paradise, waste foreign aid and call for the extermination of other nations deserve nothing less.
...sitting on my land..."Israel is a vile entity that has been planted in our soil, and has no historical, religious or cultural legitimacy...
..."We [aim to liberate] all our lands...
No historical,religious or cultural legitimacy ?
What !
"We [aim to liberate] all our lands..."
There will be two suns in the sky before that happens.
What's really amazing is all these dhimmi fools who seem unable to take Hamas as it's word. They will never accept Israel's right to exist. They have loudly and consistently stated so. And since the Palestinians elected Hamas, they are only reflecting the people's rejection of Israel's right to exist. And this rejection is rooted in Islam.
Anyone who thinks that there is a chance for peace in the Arab-Israeli conflict is simply nuts as long as Islam rules the Palestinian roost.
Even worse, there are still in Israel orthodox parties that still dream of the greater israel from Euphrates to Nile.
Why even worse? I think that's a great idea and I support it. Israel needs to retake the sinai on grounds that the treaty under which it was handed over to Egypt has been violated numerous times by Egypt. Next, expel all "Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza into Jordan and formally annex them into Israel. Then The Golans.
Spoils of War. There is much precedent to justify this action. Of course iran and company will howld and maybe attack and then we join in with the IDF and take them all out no-holds-barred. Best to do it now before they all go noo-coo-lar.
An Arab friend sometimes discusses Israel with me. I once said to him, "The issues here are not the issues. The issue is Dar-al-Islam and the fact that Jews must be dhimmis in Dar-al-Islam. The very existance of Israel to Muslims is an offense. When Muslims talk of peace with Israel they mean the annihilation of Israel." He said, "You are absolutely right." He has also told me that it's almost impossible to express such views in the Mideast. He told me when he returns from Jordan on a visit he often feels like he wants to kiss the ground in America because of the freedom of thought here (and he complains about how Jordanians drive and park-LOL. I've never been there, but it must be pretty bad).
Many Jews in Israel are there because of former persecution in Muslim countries, as well as being there because they fled Hitler. They have created a very successful country that could be a great benefit to the Arab Mideast. This tiny country is one of the world leaders in the export of intellectual property. Their science and technology contributions are excellent. Yet, because of Islam, the entire Muslim Mideast will one day suffer a catastrophe when Israel is attacked as a result of this belief-system. As my friend said, "many over there are concerned with martyrdom".
Just reading Daniel Goleman's 'Social Intelligence'. He mentions the Ultimatum Game: two people can share $10, but only if one makes an offer of share size that the other accepts. Rational economists are maddened by the fact that if an offer is made that the other perceives as 'unfair', they will reject it, thus ensuring that both players end up with nothing. So rather than accept your offer of a $1 share, I'll punish you by rejecting it. But fairly reasonable people will accept a fair offer.
This is the game the 'Palestinians' are playing, but an extreme version: Israel is offering them at least $5 or more for a peaceful solution. The 'Palestinians' would rather have constant war than allow the Israelis anything, even the few cents that the tiny strip of Israel is in the huge Middle East.
Islam can't cope with anything but total domination.
As my friend said, "many over there are concerned with martyrdom".
Frank,
How many is "many"? Doesn't this put the lie to the idea that the terrorists are radicals who don't speak for the majority of "mainstream" Muslims?
Your friend said it's impossible to express his views in the Middle East? So what does he think of those who say the US is oppressing Muslims all over the world? Does he prefer oppression by the US over the others?
This is the result of generations upon generations of "Palistinian" culture of death and hate. They are ripe for their own destruction. They will eventually die. No people that saturated with evil, and having NO redeemable characteristics can survive for long.
You know what the Moslem claim to Jerusalem is based on?
The Pimp Mohammad (sleaze be upon him) rode his donkey to Jerusalem so it could shit all over the holy place of the Jews. Thus the camel marked its spot.
They're dogs.
PMK-
My friend knows I'm quite blunt and his responses to me are blunt. However, If he feels that he does not want to talk about an issue, he will say "Let's not talk about politics, Frank". I leave people complete freedom with me and respect their wishes.
He kind of trailed off in his attitude when he said "many". He went into his own thoughts. But he expressed some frustration with "this martyrdom stuff" as he called it. I often get the impression that he would be glad if the Israeli issue was resolved in some practical manner. However, he has let it be known that he thinks Islam is a big factor in preventing that.
I have to be very careful because I am aware that he was born and raised a Muslim. So I do not want to alienate him. But I have gotten a lot of insight from him (and he has gotten some from Jihadwatch-though he thinks the ideas are all mine-LOL).
This is a sad situation. Reason tells us to cut a deal in these kind of matters. Israelis would be happy bunnies if such a real deal came to pass. But Islam is indeed the road-block. It's very sad. Israel could be a great benefit to the region. The Jews are generally a very intelligent people and Israel is a leader in technology and science. Just imagine the benefits to all if Israel and the Arabs could come to an understanding.
The unspoken and ignored huge gurialla in the rome that is a big problem is Islamic dogma. All the other issues are really side issues.
Frank, it sounds liek your friend is at least truthful- there is NO accepting Israel's presence on earth by any anti-Semite Arab- and no matter how they sugar coat their message for the itnernational press, they still at the end of the day stink to high heaven as the filthy lying murderers that they are. I'm not suggesting that every Arab is anti-Semitic, but am emphatically stating that groups like Hammas, Hizbollah etc will NOT stop until Israel no longer exists- It is absolutely maddening that people deny that fact. Makes you want to scream sometimes.
Christian news and commentary at: sacredscoop.com ...
Averroes should do more studying of histories of Israel written by Israelis and books on the 1947-49 war written by Americans. Read books by John Roy Carlson [Cairo to Damascus], Frank Gervasi, Kenneth Bilby, Robert St John, Hal Lehrman, Arthur Koestler, etc.
--Fatah has not recognized Israel. Look at their website [they spell the name "fateh"]
--there is no party in Israel represented in the Knesset calling for Israeli rule over all territory from the Nile to the Euphrates. We want the Land of Israel, which included in ancient times the Golan Heights, the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and that part of Transjordan along the east bank of the Jordan [not all of Transjordan].
-- the Jewish National Home was established in 1920 in international law at the San Remo conference, which also officially applied the name "palestine" to the territory of the JNH. The territory called "palestine" officially starting in 1920 had been divided into several Ottoman territorial divisions, vilayets and sanjaks, such as vilayet of Damascus, Independent sanjaq of Jerusalem, vilayet of Beirut [or was it vilayet of Sidon then?].
Averroes needs to ask his Arab friends to demonstrate good faith to Israel. The moronic efforts of "peace"-oriented Israeli govts. have led to constant warfare and killing. The Oslo accord was a peace crime.