And if he doesn't? "Turkish Muslim wants Pope to say Islam peaceful," by Gareth Jones and Selcuk Gokoluk for Reuters:
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's top Muslim official said on Thursday Pope Benedict should state clearly during a planned visit to Turkey next week he believes Islam, like Christianity, to be a religion of peace.
Benedict infuriated Muslims worldwide in September with a lecture that appeared to portray Islam as an irrational religion tainted by violence. Benedict later expressed regret over the pain his remarks caused but stopped short of a full apology.
"I think the attitude the Pope should take is that neither Islam nor Christianity is a source of violence," said Ali Bardakoglu, who heads Ankara's Directorate General for Religious Affairs which controls Turkish imams and writes their sermons.
"If they ask me if Christianity has been the cause of violence, I would say no, that is not so ... We believe all prophets sent by God, from Moses to Jesus and Mohammad, are messengers of compassion," he told Reuters in an interview.
Violence committed in the name of religion was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings, he said.
"I believe the Pope shares this view and his saying this will be in the interests of all humanity," he said.
Bardakoglu, who meets the Pope next Tuesday at the start of the four-day visit, said in September Benedict must apologize for his remarks and should reconsider his trip to Turkey.
But he told Reuters it was now time to look to the future and said the Pope would receive a hospitable reception in the overwhelmingly Muslim country.
He said he would be happy to explain to the Pope the "unbreakable" link between reason and faith in Islam, citing the historic achievements of Islamic science and learning.
[...]
Bardakoglu said Turkey was a free country where people had the democratic right to protest.
"But any street protests will not reflect the mainstream hospitable attitude of Turkey," he added.
[...]
"He may make some good statements, saying we have only one God although we have different religions. We have sympathy for each other and we should not exploit the differences in a negative way."
The Pope is due to hold talks during his visit with the Istanbul-based spiritual head of the world's 250 million Orthodox Christians, Patriarch Bartholomew, who has complained of property and other restrictions his church faces in Turkey.
Bardakoglu defended Turkey's treatment of its tiny Christian community and of other religious minorities.
"If the Pope says Christians in Turkey are mistreated, I will tell him that he has been seriously misinformed," he said.
[...]
Bardakoglu also signaled he was ready to tackle the Pope over Turkey's bid to join the European Union. Before becoming Pope, Benedict spoke out against Turkey joining the EU, saying it did not belong there because of its religion and culture.
"The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace. For that reason, I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion," he said.
What are the other five of the Six Impossible Things he will be asked to believe before breakfast?
The Pope is not permitted to tell a lie.
"He said he would be happy to explain to the Pope the 'unbreakable' link between reason and faith in Islam...
-- from the article above
Not breakable or unbreakable.
Merely a Missing Link.
What common values is Mr. Bardakoglu referring to?
Such as?
We are told, of course, that the Arabs invented algebra (e.g. in a recent Time Magazine issue). Well, the Chinese invented paper and gunpowder, and Lydia invented coined money, or so I’ve heard. So? What matters more is the present. Is Islam conducive to science and learning now?
(Sidenote: I study mathematics, and I regularly see and use the work of great European and American mathematicians, and even Chinese and Japanese mathematicians, but nowhere do I see an Islamic one.)
"What common values is Mr. Bardakoglu referring to?"
Posted by: TheOmegaMan
The JudaeoChristian ones, of course, which underscores why falsely "secular" Turkey should not be in the EU.
The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace.
Like the UAE, OIC, etc., etc.? (See Bat Ye'or for the myriad acronyms).
Turkish PM: "now please mr. pope sir. please say islam is peaceful. see? islam, the word, means submission to God, thats peaceful see? "
Quote from article:
"If the Pope says Christians in Turkey are mistreated, I will tell him that he has been seriously misinformed," he said
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I almost fell off my chair.
Like Ive said many times on these threads I have an exmuslim Turkish friend (we go to U of T) together
and he has told me how mosques ENCOURAGED them to 'hate' the christians (thats in the Qur'an/hatdit)
and how he as a young kid when and attacked an old lady he randomly saw because she had a small wooden cross.
Anwyay there used to be hundreds of thousands of Chrisitians in Istanbul now there are something like less than a thousand. And GAWRSH DARN THOSE SILLY CHRISTIANS IN ISTANBUL FORGOT TO LIQUADATE THEIR ASSETS AS THEY LEFT TO AVOID HEAVY TAXES OF AT LEAST 150% (yeah you heard me) LEAVING IT ALL FOR THEIR LOVING NEIGHBOURS THE LOCAL MUSLIMS THERE.
Unofficial shiiria attitudes in Turkey abound in the countryside. For example there are still people in Turkey around the area where that Christian priest was shot who actually believe that the shooter this muslim youth was trying to aim for the icon behind the priest., oh yes of course. THEN its okay to invade a church sanctuary and start shooting because you werent trying to kill anybody just shoot at symbols picturing our faith. By the way the icon behind the priest was a picture of Christ at the last supper (an orthodox version of it if you have ever seen that) But there were others all around: the Blessed Virgin Mary, St Paul the Apostle (usually pictured alone with epsitles held up), St John the Baptist.
Yeah see its okay to shoot at THOSE icons because they pictured such bad people --people who lived and died for the gospel of peace who followed Jesus who said "treat others as you want them to treat you." yes yes such BAD people, who feed the poor, comforted the sick, preached hope to the hopeless roman slaves, were hunted down, killed for believing, and thrown into the lions den for saying ceasar is not god...
why how dare the christians honor such folks and not Muhammed who er... well...had alot of sex and killed masssacred those who didnt accept Islam.
GAWRSH DARN what were we Christians thinking huh?
PS MESSAGE TO THE TURKISH PM --fear and quake you creep the Pope is not misinformed about anything. He sees right through you.
These people have mistaken Pope for a Muhammed, only Mo was allowed to be fulled by Shaitan and acknowledge foreing "gods"?
It would be nice if Pope asked them to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, in exchange for saying Islam ir religion of piece, only then Pope would be lying and they would be telling the truth.
(Sidenote: I study mathematics, and I regularly see and use the work of great European and American mathematicians, and even Chinese and Japanese mathematicians, but nowhere do I see an Islamic one.)
Posted by: Steve Cheng
Steve yep you are so right. I am of Greek heritage and ah we created a few things too. A little thing called democracy among others that the muslims hate (its hareem against shiaria law you see). And I have a Persian friend who says that Islam loves to claim pre-islamic persian achievements as their own becuase Persia was an early conquest of Islam.
And China and Japanese achievements? They were MANY as you know --the Chinese dynasties were cultured and achieved a high level of sophistication. So high that one of the Chinese Emperors had heard of the advanced Christian Byzantine Roman Empire and wanted to contact them to open economic and friendly ties with them. The ship that the emperor sent never made it but like attracts like. this is an obscure but accurate historical fact I found at Far Eastern Studies journals here at the University of Toronto.
Islam? islam is about 'reversion'. HAVE SEX WITH 4 WIVES! KILL NONMUSLIMS AND RECIEVE THEIR BOOTY! ARE YOU A PEDO? NO PROB BUT YOU CANT HAVE A GIRL YOUNGER THAN NINE YOU SNEaKY PEDO. OH AND ALLAH HAS ASSIGNED YOU TO KILL AND FIGHT --GUARANTEED TO
MAKE YOU ACHIEVE HEAVEN WHERE YOU GET 72 VIRGINS! SIGN UP NOW!SEIG HEIL ALLAH!
oh and I forgot the acheievements of the pagan Romans and the Christian Italians, the English, the Germans, the Americans the..... all those daman nonmuslims who dont give a you know what for no desert moongood named allah.
Branislav lol
I could see it now Turkish PM "you want me to say WHAT in exchange for your statement? ohhhhh my aching head! yes yes I know Turkey is a 'secular' state but mr pope sir do you know what the 99% muslims would do to me if I said anyting nice about er jesus?"
The Pope should tell him, " when old mo comes back from Hell, then we'll talk".
Violence committed in the name of religion was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings, he said.
Violence committed in the name of Nazism was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings. In truh, Nazism was just misunderstood.
Violence committed in the name of religion was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings, he said."
said Ali Bardakoglu
Well in that case; we should start with Mohammed himself since the prophet became extremely violent in his last 10 years in an effort to force his religon on people. Less we forget just one violent example committed by Mohammed against the Quyrash (Jewish)tribe where he had around 800 men beheaded before him and the wives and children. He then took the woman, and children as slaves.
But of course the prophet Mohammed is not misguided or fallible????
Do as I say but not as I do apparently.
The U.S. Department of Justice web site has an english translation of portions of "The Al Qaeda Manual." It was located by the Manchester (England) Metropolitan Police during a search of an al Qaeda member’s home. You can find it here
(www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf). In it is the following quote MADE BY MUSLIMS.
"The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostate regimes does not know Socratic debates...,Platonic ideals..., nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.
Islamic governments have never and will never be established through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils. They are established as they [always] have been
by pen and gun
by word and bullet
by tongue and teeth"
That's a quote if you didn't notice. Who should they threaten for this misrepresentation of Islam?
MEMO TO: Pope
FROM: Muhammed
You will say Islam is peaceful, or we'll kill you....you got a problem with that?
MEMO TO: Pope
FROM: SATAN
what he said.
Ya, Islam is not the source of evil, it is Satan himself. Islam is merely one of Satan's most effective tools.
How many innocents did Jesus slaughter, anyway??
" I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion," he said.
Oh? What a liar.
I'm still reeling with John Paul II kissing the quran and calling it a holy book on his last visit to Jerusalem.
As a non-Catholic, I would not be surprised if Benedict follows the example; but I think higher of Benedict.
It's not my church, but I would hope that Benedict cancels this so-called meeting citing this black-mail attempt; but he won't.
BTW, out of curiosity -- do Roman Catholics see the pope as God on earth?
No disrespect intended; but that is what I heard, so I'm interested in what lay men and women who are Catholic, think.
The official line I can get -- I want to know what Catholic people believe on the matter; it will clarify for me the implications of John Paul's action in Jerusalem.
Thanks in advance.
From the post above:
Bardakoglu also signaled he was ready to tackle the Pope over Turkey's bid to join the European Union. Before becoming Pope, Benedict spoke out against Turkey joining the EU, saying it did not belong there because of its religion and culture.
"The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace. For that reason, I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion," he said.
What a moonbat! Middle east as Muslim club is what hurts the cause of world peace. Imagine sharia country being part of EU!How many euro's for jizya? And what common values is this guy talking about?
Lucky for us Pope is not a dhimmi, so let's see what develops from this visit.
We are told, of course, that the Arabs invented algebra (e.g. in a recent Time Magazine issue). Well, the Chinese invented paper and gunpowder, and Lydia invented coined money, or so I’ve heard. So? What matters more is the present. Is Islam conducive to science and learning now?
That's right. Since islam came into force there's nothing coming from that side any longer.
Watch out http://www.persecution.org they even provide addresses from embassies, addresses from leaders and you can even sign petitions there. Nice site
If someone is hungry about tthe love affairs from muhammad look here
http://civoc.com/newsline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=42
Mackie - just to echo your thoughts re that quote (because its such a gem of a quote): "Violence committed in the name of religion was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings, he [Ali Bardakoglu, who heads Ankara's Directorate General for Religious Affairs which controls Turkish imams and writes their sermons] said."
Since it is an indisputable fact that Muhammad committed violence in the name of religion, then according to this quite prominent Muslim, by inference, Muhammad himself was fallible and misguided.
I am aware that Muslims admit that Muhammad was human and hence fallible. But when you go a step further and admit (by inference) that he was in fact MISGUIDED, you've made quite a claim about your prophet.
Is Islam violent?
Is the sky blue?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Another temptation from the enemy himself to the pope.
Mr.Ali Bardakoglu is simply trying to put words in Pope B16 mouth.
Possibly this Turkish muslim should chat with the bomber interviewed on WND, that I refered to on another thread. They need to get their stories straight.
If the Pope agrees with the 'Religion of Peace' propaganda, I will never invite him over for beer and wrestling again...Hear that DCWatson...no more beer and wrestling for the Pope if he caves in...
Ali Bardakoglu "If the Pope says Christians in Turkey are mistreated, I will tell him that he has been seriously misinformed,"
The pope should remind him about the Turkish boy who meant to shoot a Jesus Icon when he murdered a priest who had knelt down to pray shortly before celebrating the Mass in the little Santa Maria Catholic Church of Trabzon, in the north of Turkey, on the Black Sea, when the boyshot him in the back twice with a pistol, shouting out "Allah Akbar" (God is great.)
The death of Father Andrea Santoro
February 5, 2006
Now that young 16 year old boy claims he was trying to shoot a Jesus icon on the wall when he shot two rounds into the back of Father Santaro while screaming "Allah Akbar"!!
"I meant to shout ‘Allah-u Aqbar’ (Allah is Great) and frighten the priest by shooting the Jesus icon on the wall. The priest was praying at that moment. I closed my eyes with my hand and fired the gun with my other hand. When I realised that I shot the priest, I was shocked, and I asked myself ‘Did I kill the man?’ and felt deep regret”, said the boy according to an excerpt of his testimony published by the daily Sabah.
The Trabzon court found the boy - identified because of his age only as O.A. - guilty of the murder of Father Andrea Santoro, 60 and rejected the boy's claim that the shooting was accidental because he had shot the gun twice.
While the boy's conviction for "planned killing", "carrying an unlicenced gun" and "destruction of public security" - warrented a life sentence, the penalty was reduced on account of his age, the court said.
But some how I doubt it judging by what the Pope said just after the murder of Father Andrea Santoro
Pope prays that blood of slain priest in Turkey becomes 'seeds of hope' for fraternity
VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI said Monday that he hoped the blood shed by a Roman Catholic priest slain in Turkey over the weekend would become the “seeds of hope” to build a lasting fraternity between peoples.
Top Turkish Muslim official wants Pope to say Islam peaceful
Or else? The beheading ritual?
I for one hope the Pope believes in his convictions and won't back down because someone is telling him what to say.
"Muslim official wants Pope to say Islam is peaceful"
In other words -- he wants the Pope to lie.
In fact I think the Pope should keep his arse out of Turkey and demand an apology for the 1955 carnage
The following account from an article by John Phillips in Harper’s Magazine in June 1956 describes the carnage:
"On the fifth of September 1955, a bomb exploded under singular circumstances inside the Turkish Consulate at Salonika in Northern Greece. The Turkish press and radio, over which the government is influential, blared out the incendiary and false report that the nearby birthplace of Kemal Ataturk, a sort of Turkish Mount Vernon on foreign soil, had also been destroyed. The events of the following day (September 6, 1955) in Turkey were planned and executed with the same discipline the Nazis used in their onslaughts on the Jews. Squads of marauders were driven to the shopping area in trucks and taxis, waving picks and crowbars, consulting lists of addresses, and the police stood by smiling. Greek priests were reported circumcised, scalped, burned in bed; Greek women raped. The Greek Consulate was destroyed in Izmir. Just nine out of eighty Greek Orthodox churches in Istanbul were left undesecrated; twenty-nine were demolished. Ghouls invaded the huge Greek cemetery where Patriarchs of Constantinople are buried, opened mausoleums, dug up graves, and flung bones into the streets; corpses waiting burial were lanced with knives. There had been no comparable destruction of Greek sanctuaries since the fall of Constantinople.
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/ahinoonforumturkpogrom1955.html
witness~
I am not speaking for all Catholics, but I believe that the Pope is seen as God's representative on earth. Not quite the same as God incarnate.
Also RE: JP II and the Koran- my personal opinion (for what that is worth) is that JP II was perhaps trying to make things easier for Catholics/ Christians living in Muslim nations, or even set the stage for Muslims to turn Catholic.
Hope the Pope stands his ground on this one.
to witness above:
as a catholic i can tell you that catholics do not believe that the pope is God. Catholics believe that the pope is St. peters successor and Christs REPRESENTATIVE on earth. Another thing Catholics don't believe is that the Pope is completely infallible. We do believe that the when the pope speaks on issues of faith and morals he is infallible in these teachings because it is believed that these are passed to the pope from god and it is what god wants his flock on earth to know concerning faith and morals as they relate to contemporary issues. When it comes to other issues the pope is every bit as fallible as anyone else. In other words he is every bit as likely to make a mistake when doing long division( or anything not related to faith and morals) as you and I. Hope this helps.
as an interesting aside, if you read Dante's Divine Comedy mohammed is put in the lowest part of hell right next to judas iscariot, and, if I remember correctly, he and judas are being eternally eaten by satan himself.
witness,
regarding your question about whether Catholics consider the Pope to be God.... the answer is a resounding NO...
As a Catholic, I loved Pope John Paul but sometimes he did things that were bothersome. Kissing the Koran and calling it a holy book is one.
I am hopeful Pope Benedict will stand by his previous statements as he visits Turkey.
I do worry for his safety.
So you think Ali Bardakoglu should stick it in his ear? You think he's wrong to ask the Pope to lie? Why don't you tell him? These are the email addresses from their website.
basin@diyanet.gov.tr
diyanet@diyanet.gov.tr
I would recommend you attach your favorite "peaceful" Qur'an or sunnah so that Ali knows exactly why you and the Pope can't agree with him. If you're not familiar with any use this one.
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
When you quote this, be sure to ask how many people Jesus of Nazareth killed. Where I come from this is called MURDER. I wonder what it's called where Ali comes from?
The only way to fight these evilmongers is to throw their repulsive and vile texts back in their faces. Let them know that since you won't be Dhimmi, the only choice they leave you is dar al-Harb, the House of War.
Shalom,
Am I the only one who thinks it's arrogant to tell the Pope what's what?
"Am I the only one who thinks it's arrogant to tell the Pope what's what?"
No , you are not. consider the source though.
"No , you are not. consider the source though."
Posted by: DUGGY
Sure. And I don't think the Pope is infallible or right about everything, but issues regarding the Catholic/Christian faith and Islam, I think he knows this kind of stuff better than most Muslims.
"Turkey's top Muslim official said on Thursday Pope Benedict should STATE CLEARLY next week he believes Islam to be a religion of peace."
I agree !
By the sheer fact that the pope is visiting Turkey will obviously cause MAJOR protests in the streets, and I'm sure "violent" protests.
Just as these nut jobs are in the streets burning, shooting ect., that would be the perfect time for the pope to utter the words about Islam being peacefull. The timing couldn't be more perfect. And it would be just one more embarrassment for islam.
C'mon pope......do it ! ........do it ! ! !
I am going to get hate mail for this but I think if the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church tells a boldface lie to make muslims feel better about islam he should do so at risk of his soul. I hope he has the personal courage to honor his church and the people he represents. We shall see.
And he better not mention that jihad against the Armenians. That REALLY makes 'em cranky.
1955 istanbul carnage
of the 83 Greek Orthodox Churches, 59 were burned and most others suffered serious damages to the icons and ancient paintings of great value;
the tombs of Patriarchs were destroyed;
Christian cemeteries were defiled.
1000 homes destroyed and 2500 partially destroyed and all were looted;
4000-4500 stores were looted and destroyed or damaged;
Thirty Greek males were killed;
and 200 Greek women raped.
Off topic:
Pro-Israel speech is canceled at Brown
Ummah News Links
Pope's visit offers Turkey's Christians hope for improved religious rights
Ummah News Links
Only one problem with this demand....
Jesus "Praise be him and his name", was not a prophet, but actually the son of God.
Another reason the Pope should stay out of Turkey
It is a disgrace and disrespect to a religion and god when holy places are unwillingly turned purely into tourist attractions. How would the Muslims feel if one of their holiest places was turned into a museum for tourists by a conquering power?
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2006/07/hagia-sophia.html
If you believe in the just case that Hagia Sophia should be restored to its proper religious role as a church, for which it was built in the first place, then please support this petition to the EU Parliament that Turkey should not be admitted as a member of the European Union until it restores Hagia Sophia to its original purpose as a church and not a museum.
A minimum of 1.000.000 signatures are needed in order to persuade the European Union to consider this proposal seriously.
http://www.hagiasophiablog.com/contact-secure.php
Re: Top Turkish Muslim official wants Pope to say Islam peaceful
Only Western Supremacist Multiculturalists will agree and want the Pope to ignore the supremacist claims of this belief system, and want Multicultural Supremacism imposed on Muslims. The logic of the Multiculturalism package, tied up with ribbons of "tolerance", is that we should ignore the supremacist claims of cultures (and thus not really learn anything about them), that cultural supremacist beliefs should be sneered at in Armstrong-Esposito style and Muslims told they are just part of a mosaic, that beliefs don't really matter, that all deeply held beliefs should be looked upon with indifference and condescension.
I never would have thought that I would agree with the Jihadists on this, but they are right in rejecting the "mosaic" dogmas of Armstrong-Esposito types. (The Jihadists would decapitate them.) The logic of their "mosaic" dogma is that Muslims in Saudi Arabia are inferior since they clearly assert cultural-belief-system supremacism and dare to make judgements about good and bad. (The "mosaic" view is rooted in stealth supremacist assumptions.)
It is ironic that the real enemies of the West and of Islam are these demented and condescending "mosaic" supremacists, people such as Armstrong and Esposito. The Jihadists and Robert and Hugh and the posters on Jihadwatch have a similar view on the importance of supremacist beliefs. No condesenshion here or there.
Bardakoglu l would think hell would freeze over before any Pope would say islam is a reglion of peace. yeah take a yonder at Iraq, Sudan, etc.
Bardakoglu does not realize what ever the Pope may say, it does not change a thing, we all know islam is cult of death.
I'm still reeling with John Paul II kissing the quran and calling it a holy book on his last visit to Jerusalem.
Regarding that incident, I really suggest you read this weblog.
http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html
I think it’s the most accurate and fair assessment of what happened. I have quoted the last part but please take a minute to read the whole post as it’s very short.
...Fortunately, the infallibility of the pope and the indefectibility of the Church do not extend to such actions. A pope is not attempting to make anything remotely like a dogmatic definition in an act of this nature. And so, however misguided the action may have been and however good the motives for it may have been, it would constitute an error that does not touch upon papal infallibility or ecclesial indefectibility.
It would be one of the mistakes that all fallen humans are heir to, even the vicars of Christ.
As a non-Catholic, I would not be surprised if Benedict follows the example; but I think higher of Benedict.
Don't count on it. As JPII was to communism, BXVI is to islam and moral relativism.
It's not my church, but I would hope that Benedict cancels this so-called meeting citing this black-mail attempt; but he won't.
I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, but why do you feel that way? B16 would completely demolish him in a theological "discussion" is he so choose to do so. You never know what seeds could be planted through such a talk. That imam would be forced to face Truth, something he doesn’t get in islam
BTW, out of curiosity -- do Roman Catholics see the pope as God on earth?
We in no way see the Pope as God on earth. Absolutely not! We see him as the successor to the first Pope who was St Peter.
http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getsection.cfm?partnum=1&SecNum=1&ChapNum=2&articlenum=2&ParSecNum=0&subSecNum=3&headernum=5&ParNum=100&ParType=b
The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.
Note the words "in communion with him". Very important!
Here are some additional links on the Pope:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm
http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pp.html
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/papacy.htm
Here is a good explanation of infallibility
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
In addition to what has been posted already, here is another thought on infallibility
the Church is infallible in her objective definitive teaching regarding faith and morals, not that believers are infallible in their subjective interpretation of her teaching.
I hope this helps!
Armstrong-Esopsito-
What if the cultural supremacism of Saudi Arabia demonstrates the truth about culture? Why shouldn't they reject your "mosaic" dogmas? Why shouldn't all cultures reject that and learn from Saudi Arabia? Why can't we learn from each others' supremacist claims?
Who needs your condescending "mosaic" indifference to reality? All cultures are supremacist in one way or other. The Jihadists know that as they assert the supremacism of their belief system and reject your "mosaic" crap tied up with your ribbons of "tolerance".
Ronin:
I believe Benedict will choose to be silent on that provocation.
Yet he may resort to a modernized version of the 16th-century Jesuit doctrine of "mental reservation" that says you can equivocate and obfuscate in terms of doctrine, if and when the Catholic Church thru its faithful is in danger and oppressed (back then mainly by the Protestants), but your heart is purely Catholic.
It's going to be really interesting to watch Catholic theology and politics in action.
So don't rush to condemn Benedict to the fires of hell if he doesn't do in Turkey what you expect him to do. Catholicism is a multi-faceted reality, every bit as political as Islam.
But some how I doubt it judging by what the Pope said just after the murder of Father Andrea Santoro
Pope prays that blood of slain priest in Turkey becomes 'seeds of hope' for fraternity
I note just a hint of sarcasm in your post...
To understand what the Pope B16 is getting at you have to understand the Catholic meaning of the word martyr. Let me say from the outset that this entails a complete and total faith and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
We believe martyrdom is the supreme witness given to the truth of faith, even unto death. It's not killing others for our faith, but being killed in witness to it. It's truly the ultimate act of courage and love. Rather than deny the faith one is killed proclaming it.
Note this is the exact opposite of what muslims believe a marty is. Their version is twisted and unholy.
Christianity prevaled in Rome and many, many Chrisitans were killed in witness of their faith. Ultimately it will be no different with islam.
I hope The Pope will have the conviction of righteousness to state that Islam is all faith and NO REASON; therefore, Islam IS an irrational religion tainted by violence and all its followers are misguided.
The broken line between reason and faith in Islam is demonstrated to the non-Muslim world on a daily basis.
Islam is to Christianity what the worm is to the apple. In devouring the apple, the worm only transforms the flesh of the apple into excretory waste. This is what Islam is to Christianity. Period.
Bardo's statement that, "He may make some good statements saying we have only one God although we have different religions," is contradicted by the fact that Mo-mutt and the Islamobots do not recognized Jesus as The Christ, but do believe that Mo-mutt was the inspired last word of God. By rejecting the foundation of Christ, Islam builds on what light Lucifer provides and Lucifer's will is manifest in their acts and in their aims. I would prefer The Pople to state that Muslims and Christians worship different deities; Muslims and Christians, though, both know only one Satan and that Satan destroys all life.
However, I don't really expect The Pope to do any of the foregoing; he will be walking a very narrow tightrope attempting to placate the Islamobots and advance the carrot and stick of commerce and democracy.
Spiegel interview:
"An Attack on the Pillars of Islam"
Ummah News Links
ovidius_naso, excellent points and a very nice way to say “who are you to judge the Pope?” I bow to your wisdom. I will wait patiently to see what the Pope does and does not do before commenting further.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom
After reading this article, I find it insolent that a Turkish muslim official wants the Pope to say Islam is a peaceful religion, especially considering how the Turkish muslims utterly destroyed the remnants of Christianity in Turkey...
"The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace. For that reason, I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion," he said."
One wonders what Common Values he is inquiring about? Without religion, especially the Judeo-Christian one, one can forget the 10 commandments. Indeed, it would appear that the values of Islam and Christianity are at odds with each other. One religion says "No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend." The other religion, Islam, encourages myrterdom in the form of suicide bombs.
This is vastly different. One is giving up life for another. The other form is taking your own life and taking the lives of other human beings. No, if this is the common values that this Muslim is talking about then I'd rather have the religious values instead.
"I'm still reeling with John Paul II kissing the quran and calling it a holy book on his last visit to Jerusalem."
Posted by: witness
John Paul II apparently kissed gifts presented to him on formal occasions, so don't be too hard on the guy.
Also, in the photograph, there is nothing on that book's cover to indicate that the book is a qur'an, so how was the Pope to know what it was.
I am not the Pope, so cannot be expected to maintain civilized protocol when entering the Islamic enemy camp of Turkey, though they really try to act modern and secular. So my response would not suit his response, under the same circumstances. Pope Benedict XVI will probably say something sensible and diplomatic, like:
"...There is no compulsion in religion, we agree. Those who historically misinterpreted the word of God as given to us by His prophets led to violence. There is only one God, one that teaches peace and compassion, the One God we both believe in. The violences of our past, as in past Crusades, need never be repeated as we join hands in common fraternity of our mutual understanding to bring God's heaven on Earth. Peace is the true teaching of both our faiths, with full religious tolerance of each other. Let them who cry for blood remember they are not speaking for God, Allah, because they misinterpret the true teachings of Mohammed, same as in Christ, that only peace will rule the world..."
However, what he is not saying is that pedophile murderer slaver Mohammed taught to rule the world by the sword, peace being possible only when all infidels are conquered, subdued and converted. The Pope is right to use Christian 'takkiya' same as any Muslim, so he will sensibly and diplomatically flow with kind understanding. Ratzinger is a highly educated and intelligent man, and while speaking this placatory words (to save the last few remaining Christians in Turkey) he'll be thinking to himself, "what uncouth, ignorant, barbaric, idiotic jerks".
I am not Pope, so I can speak freely: " Muslims, take your 'religionofpeace' and shove it! "
B16 would completely demolish him in a theological "discussion" is he so choose to do so...
Thank you to all who answered my earlier inquiry.
As I understand your comments, Roman Catholics do not see the pope as god on earth, and is in fact prone to human error -- such as kissing a quaran and calling it "holy."
Moreover, as I understand your comments Roman Catholics limit the infallablity issue to strict interpretations of morals and scriptures; most things that at first blush, I believe all Christians would agree to at some fundemental level -- obviously, not total agreement -- but such is the human condition.
Hopefully, I have understood you correctly; and I will go through the above links as well.
While I believe that Benedict could best the Turkish immam in a fair debate. However, considering the outrage cause by Benedicts mere quotation from history what can we imagine would be the outcome of such a discussion?
I don't see what good could possibly emerge from this discussion, but I hope Benedict stands firmly in his ground!
Common Values ?
hmmm, hard to know where to start....
freedom of speech ?
freedom of worship ?
equal rights in law, without regard to race, religion, or gender ?
truthfulness ?
hmmm...
maybe the pope can say islam is pieceful instead peiceful as in pieces of flesh caused by jihadist blowing people up
If Islam is against Christianity, how could anyone of the Christian world see Islam is peaceful, let alone confess to it?
Moreover, as I understand your comments Roman Catholics limit the infallablity issue to strict interpretations of morals and scriptures;
That's correct; for example the constant teachings of the Church have been that abortion is intrinsically evil, it's not a point for debate. As a Catholic it's essential for me to believe and affirm that for the eternal salvation of my soul.
On the other hand, whatever JPII and B16 have said about the war in Iraq is a personal opinion. Obviously it’s well formed and I show the utmost respect for what they have to say. However I can in good conscious disagree with them and it’s not a matter of doctrine or my salvation. Nevertheless my disagreement should be in good faith, respectful and my opinion should be well formed also.
most things that at first blush, I believe all Christians would agree to at some fundemental level -- obviously, not total agreement -- but such is the human condition.
Well, it really depends on what Protestant denomination you speak to. Some hold drastically different views and others are much closer in agreement. If you read the book "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis he goes about as far as you can go in terms of general agreement among Christians. Beyond that we have some very serious and deep theological differences. However unlike muslims we are not blowing each other up....
M alcontent:
"Common Values ?
hmmm, hard to know where to start....
freedom of speech ?
freedom of worship ?
equal rights in law, without regard to race, religion, or gender ?
truthfulness ?
hmmm..."
Try something more fundamental, like the Ten Commandments. The rest are just the details.
witness
The leader of my religion is not supposed to foment strife and contention with criticism and comparisons. The Holy Father is not a politician and his rebukes are to be mild...leave him out of this war..please. The universe is unfolding the way it will.
Hello all you freedom loving people. I hate to ask the obvious but has anyone tried to estimate the number of assassination plots currently in the works targeting the Pope on his proposed visit to Turkey ??
Given the number of millions of inbred, protien deficient, brainwashed whacko muslim nutbars in Turkey, I would guess there are more than 1000 plots to assinassinate the Pope.
I imagine the "leaders" of the muslim vomit world are running around trying to persuade the brainwashed faithful that killing the Pope might be a bad idea. As if the "leaders" think they can control the atrocities commited by their "followers".
So, what can we expect ?
The Pope will be asked to say that islam is a "religion of peace" just before the bomb goes off.
Then the "leaders" will go on tv and say the assassination was merely the action of a few "misguided and disaffected youths and in no way reflects the spirit of islam".
The southern half of Turkey will burn to the ground because the "misguided youth of islam" will go on a terror spree as they dance in the streets because the Pope is dead.
Kofi Annan, the muslim apologist, will go on tv and call for peace and nobody in the muslim world will hear about it because of censorship.
And the rest of the freedom loving world will just shake their heads at the tragedy and wonder if the world has been invaded by aliens or maybe if there is something in the water in the muslim world that makes them all so freaking insane.
Then we'll all just turn the channel and hope our collective governments will save us all from this madness.
Christians are treated well in Turkey !!!!!!
Ask Mr. Bardakoglu what happened to the Armenians who were slaughtered by the Ottoman Turks from 1915 to 1918. Why, its just another example of the peaceful practitioners of Isslam , sieg heil and how they interact with non-mohammadens.
Also, ask him why they got their asses kicked at the gates of Vienna on Sept 11 1683 by King Jan Sobieski III of Poland. Because they were laying siege to Vienna and a Christian Army saved Vienna and therefore Europe from the murderous Turks. Thank God we had Christians who understood the threat of Islam to their countries and Christianity. I think a nice pork roast dinner is in order for the feast to commemorate the Pope's visit.
and Mr. Christian Pope, if you do not tell the world that the cult of islam is peaceful we will murder more nuns..............
"Pope prays that blood of slain priest in Turkey becomes 'seeds of hope' for fraternity"
Could it be this self-dislike of Westerners that we are told of is affecting our ability to understand what is being said?
It seems that there is more than one way to look at this statement. Could the fraternity he speaks of be amoung Christians? He is going there to heal a breech between two factors of the catholic church (it was said in an earlier post).
If Christians all over the World don't get together with each other; guess who will win?
I have learned more about Christianity and how Christians are treated on JW than I ever heard in Church. OR on the MSM.
The Holy Father is not a politician and his rebukes are to be mild...leave him out of this war..please. The universe is unfolding the way it will
In all due respect, the Holy Father IS a politician; it IS part of the job. Always has been; always will be.
He is "in this war" up to his eyeballs; but not by mind hand. (There are somethings I just can't take credit for, like this for example; but I do thank you for your apparent belief in my abilities.)
The universe will unfold according to God's plan; even the Holy Father will tell you that.
AND I'll wager, he will set you straight on his "political role" as pope, if you ever get an audience with him.
ISLAM peaceful ask the christians (and jews) that used to live in a Christian land taken over by muslims....
(my post from another thread but it is worth repeating here):
The Crusades of course were a defence against constant mulsim encrouchment and attack. Finally when the muslims took over Asia Minor (there were no muslims of any kind in Turkey before 1000-1100 AD) the subjected the christians and jews there to, you guessed it, Shiara law and the "your not a muslim so pay for it tax" (jizya) . Finally around 1915 they wanted to force mass numbers of remaining Chrisitians in Asia Minor (now called Turkey) so they rouned up MILLIONS of these people. We know them as ARMENIANS. Also they rounded up thousands upon thousands of Greeks, and the 100,0000+ Jewish population that existed there. Over 2 million Armenians were killed and hundreds of thousands of other Christians.
Under Shiara law you MAY kill Christians and Jews if they are "not acting properly" after "court judgements" have been settled against them.
There are surviovors to THIS day, very old but who have not forgotten what happened. Many of these people were interviewed over 20 years ago.
Their testimonies survive...
Here are only a few of them in video testimony telling you what the muslims put them through:
Armenian Genocide Survivor Sam Kadorian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfC0thL5lUc
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Hagop Assadourian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3JYUYnsqE&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Richard Parseghian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ijIaMWwtk&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor --Alice Muggerditchian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHiaiqowsQg&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide Survivor Vartan Hartunian 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNYiNbRZBDk&mode=related&search=
MORE SURVIVORS (just key in Armenian Genocide Survivor on youtube.com) or press link below for the indexed results of that search:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Armenian+Genocide+Survivor&search=Search
Please note there is also a PROPAGANDA docutmentary called 'truth about Armenia" put on youtude by a Turkish govt official. They have organized countless propaganda programs to promote
that Armenia Genocide didnt happen. Of course its really hard for the world to forget the piled up bodies (just like in the Nazi holocaust). Many WESTERN journalists (like Americans and some Brits) took pictures of what happened and national geographic did a story with picutures at that time (I personally have copies of it they are also available at bigger university libraries around the US and free world). This is why the US and every EU country does not deny the genocide
but our muslim 'friends' deny it and get enraged when a "crusader" like the Pope visits them. If they accept the Pope today what hidden truths would they have to accept next time?
********WE WANT YOUR LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS FOR ISLAM AS YOU LEAVE TURKEY LEAVE THEM BEHIND OR WE WILL TAKE THEM*********************
PS
(when they forced on mass migration out --the turks and kurds would raid the caravan to take little boys and girls in keeping with Muhammeds rules of slave accquisition during 'war'. Look at what this survivor has to say):
Armenian Genocide Survivor - Kevork Balian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdnHOSs0XNA
Turkeys denial in the news (2006 article!)
QUOTE FROM NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE (link to whole article below):
"Turkey, Armenia and Denial
Published: May 16, 2006
Turkey's self-destructive obsession with denying the Armenian genocide seems to have no limits. The Turks pulled out of a NATO exercise this week because the Canadian prime minister used the term "genocide" in reference to the mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I. Before that, the Turkish ambassador to France was temporarily recalled to protest a French bill that would make it illegal to deny that the Armenian genocide occurred. And before that, a leading Turkish novelist, Orhan Pamuk, was charged with "insulting Turkish identity" for referring to the genocide (the charges were dropped after an international outcry).
Turkey's stance is hard to fathom. Each time the Turks lash out, new questions arise about Turkey's claim to a place in the European Union, and the Armenian diaspora becomes even more adamant in demanding a public reckoning over what happened"
quote from "THE NEW YORK TIMES" full article may 16 2006:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/opinion/16tue3.html?ex=1305432000&en=cfccaddb1b9957a1&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 27, 2006 01:52 PM
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The Pope should become a martyr for mankind. This time around the world would punish the muslims. In the last attempt nothing was made of the fact that it was a muslim who tried to assassinate the last Pope. This time Christians worldwide, joined by other religions would retaliate against muslims and their hate houses which they call mosques. Heck, they attack each other's mosques in Iraq. They are setting a precedent for mosques to all be torched here. If the control centers are eliminated the religion would eventually follow.