Turkey in Transition: Less Europe, More Islam

It is funny I was watching with my son last night on Dutch Television the James Bond movie “From Russia with Love” The film must be now nearly 40 years old. In none of the street scenes which were set in Istanbul, did I once see a women wearing a bin liner, the only one woman I did see was an old women wearing a head scarf. How things have changed.

I wonder if the United States is still pushing for entrance into the EU for Turkey?

(I would bet YES).

One would think the increase of Islamania in Turkey would lessen the chance of it joining the EU. Solana and company probably told them to get more of that good old time Islam so it would fit in the EU even better. Where's Attaturk when you need him the most?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with separate swimming for men and women. There are some hotels in Israel which cater to the religious and have separate swimming hours. But the vast majority of hotels here are not like that.

"I wonder if the United States is still pushing for entrance into the EU for Turkey?"
-- Guillermox

I wonder WHY the United States is still pushing for entrance into the EU for Turkey.

It is funny I was watching with my son last night on Dutch Television the James Bond movie “From Russia with Love” The film must be now nearly 40 years old. In none of the street scenes which were set in Istanbul, did I once see a women wearing a bin liner, the only one woman I did see was an old women wearing a head scarf. How things have changed.

Posted by: Holger Dansker

I was in Turkey several times 30 yrs ago,and head covering was only to be seen on elderly women.What I did notice was that the worst thing that any body could do was criticize Attaturk.
So the question is has Turkey changed,or has the West become more aware of Turkey.

An article about the slide of Turkey away from the secularism on which it was founded

Was the modern Turkey founded on Secularism,or has Turkey been using secularism as a mask to conceal genocide in the last century, a genocide that stands out for various reasons is the mass murder of Armenians, Greeks, and other Christians by the Young Turk rulers during 1915 to 1918.

It was well planned in the highest councils of government, and well prepared and organized, as was the Holocaust. When in 1915 the telegrammed order, “Take care of the Armenians,” launched the genocide.

The Young Turk government collapsed with Turkey’s defeat along with its ally Germany in World War I. But, the killing did not end then. Within less than a year of their defeat the post-war Turkish government was taken over by Kemal Attaturk, whose positive reputation in the West hides the fact that he restarted the genocide of the Armenians, and with a greater focus on wiping out the Greek minority also.

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2006/03/take-second-look.html

Where's Attaturk when you need him the most?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS

We dont need another Attaturk

Turkey’s history of ethnic cleansing and genocide is rooted in its particular brand of virulent and racially supremacist nationalism. When Mustafa Kemal Attaturk founded the modern nation of Turkey, he did so on the foundation of genocide against Armenians—a genocide that is yet to be recognized by much of global public opinion or the U.S. Congress.

In addition to Armenians, almost a millions Kurds were deported or massacred at that time, and more than a million Greeks were also forced from Anatolia, in a broad attempt to create a racially “pure” Turkish society. Nevertheless, Kurdish leaders and fighters were instrumental in securing Turkey’s borders from various would-be usurpers. Their reward for this help was the mass execution of its leadership, reneged promises, and ongoing repression. After the Armenians, Kurds became the primary targets of nationalist terror, as their “stubbornly” held separate identity posed a threat to Turkey’s vision of a monocultural secular society.....

I wonder WHY the United States is still pushing for entrance into the EU for Turkey.

Posted by: rahel

SO DO I

.....The ensuing decades saw dozens of uprisings, all of which were ruthlessly crushed, until guerillas asserted themselves in the mountains and engaged with the Turkish army in the 1980s. This cycle reached its apex in the 1980s and 1990s, when Turkey’s scorched earth policy destroyed more than 3,000 villages, forcing more than 2 million Kurds into internal exile or permanent refugee status. The penalty for returning to villages remains torture or death, as recent killings by Turkish military and paramilitary forces have shown. Kurds are prevented from using their language, naming their children Kurdish names, wearing Kurdish colors— even the traffic lights have been changed to red, yellow, and blue because red, yellow, and green are the Kurdish national colors.

Turkey’s efforts to annihilate Kurdish culture—it refers to Kurds only as “mountain Turks”—has been repudiated by all of the world’s respected human rights organizations, notably Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and even the U.S. State Department Reports on Human Rights, as well as by numerous European Union representatives and bodies.

Turkey’s efforts, including the mass transfer of Kurdish children to boarding schools where they are “decultured” and raised as Turks, constitute in the language of the Geneva Conventions Against Genocide acts of cultural genocide aimed at reduction or elimination of a distinct group of people.

More info

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2006/03/look-before-opening.html

Shiva is right. I had distant relatives in Turkey (actually around Constantinople area). They would either force you outright to leave the country, make you pay high taxes like 150% until you were broke 9yes thats 150% of what you earned at a job --you read that right), just killed you and piled the bodies up like they did in the Jewish holocaust. Millions upon millions of Armenians and Greeks and Jews (over 100,000s of Jews were in Asia Minor in Turkey with temples and tradition all wiped out by Attaturk). Churches destroyed lives ended to make way for the new 'secular' Turkey only it wasnt secular! Islam is very strong there now and so is Turkish nationalism, a kind of nationalism that has racist bloodline based overtones. Here is what a Turkish man at Danial Pipes site said (link follows):

Submitted by Ozcan Erdonmez, Jul 23, 2006 at 02:52

As a liberal Turk myself, I urge the EU to stop negotiations with Turkey, it would be a disaster. Turkish people by and large are very similar to those in the Middle East. Our people are far from being enlightened. Anti-semitism and extreme hatred of non-Muslims is very common among Turks. I could write a whole book to prove my point, but I'll leave it here. No to Islamofascists in enlightened Europe !

Submitted by Ozcan Erdonmez, Jul 23, 2006 at 03:00

I forgot to mention that Turkish nationalism is an extreme danger to humanity. Turks consider themselves a superior race.

These famous words of Ataturk are still uttered PROUDLY by most Turks: "You will find the strength you need in your noble blood".

Or: "One Turk is equal to the world". I can assure you that Turkish nationalism is no different from outright fascism!

No to Turkey in Europe.

links:
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50631
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50632

shiva-

Time for me to do further reading on Attaturk regarding the genocides. I once read a book on him that seemingly glossed that over. I certainly don't support that part of his program. Keeping Islamania under control is the part of his program that I do favor.

The Turks should get no perks.

Good news:

"The beleaguered Turkish EU membership talks were dealt another blow on Thursday (2 November) after emergency talks to try and unblock the impasse were cancelled." - EU OObserver
A few hundred thousand Greek Cypriots have a veto on Turkish entry if all else fails - sometimes the ridiculous set-up of this orgamisation can have it advantages.
For latest on negotiations see:

http://euobserver.com/9/22785

My employer sent me to Turkey for a few weeks (to install some factory machinery) and my Turk host (the wealthy factory owner) took me out each evening for dinner.
The first night we went to a restaurant where every table was filled with only men, and the waiters and cooks were all men.

Each evening the same...different restaurants but always, exclusively men dining and serving.

I began to suspect my host was gay...why did he only patronize male-only establishments? I knew he was married with children so I asked him which restaurant did he like to take his wife to, and he answered, "My wife has never been to a restaurant...her place is in the home."

Just imagine this "culture" becoming part of Europe.

"Less Europe, more Islam."

That quote could very well be a statement made about the EU today (as it fits perfectly).

This article also tends to confirm my suspicions that anti-Americanism, anti-Semitism, and anti-Christianism are inextricably linked.

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003297.html

'News from der Spiegel and Focus MSN (in German) and Associated Press via the International Herald Tribune reports that a retired Protestant priest died today as a result of setting himself on fire. The 73-year old former pastor had apparently acted as a protest against the spread of Islam.

Reverend Roland Weisselberg had climbed into a construction site adjacent to the Augustinerkloser church in the city of Erfurt on Tuesday, while Reformation Day services were being carried out. He doused himself in gasoline and then set himself alight. He died in the burns unit at the city of Halle.

At a news conference, the provost of the church, Elfried Begrich said that Reverend Weisselberg had detailed in a letter that the Protestant church should be more aware of the threat posed by the spread of Islam.'

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003297.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/01/europe/EU_GEN_Germany_Self_immolation.php

Robert:
I hope you remember how contentious I was with Dr. Pipes and his rather cavalier assessment of Turkey..(At the Jihad and the West lectures in Boston)
Many are wondering what is going on with him?
He seems as if he is parsing his words, lately,very PC. Will we soon be hearing he has accepted a position in the Bush Adminstration as an advisor?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with separate swimming for men and women. There are some hotels in Israel which cater to the religious and have separate swimming hours. But the vast majority of hotels here are not like that.
Posted by: TeachESL

Glad to hear islam has so much in common with Judaism. NOT!

Didn't Europe learn a hard lesson about the Turks in the past few HUNDRED years???

Ask the Greeks, Hungarians and Austrians.
Posted by: americaningermany

And don't forget Germany. We are already suffering under the turkish yoke. AND we have the pleasure of paying for the oppression in our own lands!

NO TO turkey in the EU!!!!

YES to ISRAEL in the EU INSTEAD of turkey!!

They have European values and manners and intellect. If Europe owes andyone anything I'd reckon we owe Israel a great deal more than we owe turkey.

If we can even get Israel to consider the idea.. But imagine how fast the Turks will RUN from EU accession if Israel so much as asks.

I hope Israel doesn't sell us out for reason of understandable resentment against us. I am asking for an Israeli bearhug.. to force us to do what is good for both Israel and for ourselves.

The enemy is fighting this war not only with weapons and with the most devious of terror, but he also is using the UN and carefully staged events and rhetoris and even our own legal systems against us and against Israel. We must learn to use these tactics as well and I feel that if Israel applies to join the EU it will cause great consternation and handwringing all over.. because it will cause a major paradigm shift. It will also steal the thunder of worldwide media attention away from the evil ones and put Israel in the driver's seat for as long as they can milk it. The longer the better IMHO.

The modern State of Turkey is built on the genocide of the Ottoman Christian inhabitants of what is now called Turkey. Muslim fundamentalism was the force harnessed by the killers of the 19th and early 20th century. Turks got rid of the Armenians and Greeks by methods that would no doubt be applauded by the current Jihadists. Gang rapes and crucifixions were the order of the day. And they have denied their crimes ever since.

Turkey and Muslim fundamentalists make me sick, and I hear "If only it weren't for Isreal, etc., etc." There was no Isreal in 1915, but the killers were active anyway.

You can't help but be amazed at how blind Turks are to their own antagonism toward a union they seek to join.

Several publishing companies have, on their own initiative, rewritten children's books that the ministry had recommended for classroom use.
Pinocchio, Heidi and Tom Sawyer live in an Islamic world where inhabitants wish each other a "blessed morning" or ask for food "in Allah's name." Aramis, one of the Three Musketeers, even converts to Islam.

Only one third of Turks support membership in the European Union. Even during the Cold War, Turkey's alliance with the West was one of self-preservation, not of shared values. For a good part of that time it was ruled by military juntas.

Many, even pro-Western Turks, feel that Europe has criticized them unfairly, or even repelled them. "The eastern European states were supported to an incredible degree, practically pushed into EU membership -- that can't be said about Turkey," protests Cem Duna, board member of the powerful industrial association Tüsiad, which continues to advocate for EU accession.

Can it be possible that even Western-educated Turks cannot see the difference between a country whose Islamic populace is largely hostile to Western values, and eastern Europeans who shared the same cultural heritage as the rest of the EU, but who spent fifty years locked behind the Iron Curtain?

Turks complain that Europe only wants them to assimilate, but on what grounds do they seek a political and economic union with people whose values they don't share? They want to bring Turkey to Europe, but they won't let Europe into Turkey.

Where would it then end? If Turkey is admitted, who is to say that Morocco and Tunesia couldn't also join the EU? Fair is fair.

I believe that is part of the master plan, the Mediterranean Partnership. It will include such jewels as Egypt, Yemen, Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Tunisia. The way it all reads to me, this is phase two of the EU which will eventually open the borders for free movement of people from all of the Middle East to all of Europe. They may not officially be part of the EU, but there will be unrestricted migration.

It is difficult to comprehend bureaucratic double talk so my interpretation of the EU Mediterranean Partnership could be entirely wrong. Maybe it's just all about "free trade." I can't quite put my finger on what these progressive, modern countries have to trade other than cheap labor and plenty of islam.

StillFedUp,
My only reply was a dumbfounded, "Oh...I see." then silence. It was too weird and I didn't feel comfortable among this group of mustached men who heartily kissed each other on both cheeks upon greeting and parting company. As my host drove his huge Mercedes back to the hotel, I glanced into the windows of all the passing restaurants, and they were filled entirely by dark-haired Turkish men. At the hotel, the doorman asked if I was interested in a "Frau" and it was clear he was referring to a prostitute which he also assured me WAS LEGAL in Turkey.

Where's Attaturk when you need him the most?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS

Attaturk is burning in hell thats where he is.

i am fed up with hypocrites saying they hate islam and islam is bad ect but they openly support ataturk and turkey and ignore genocide on armenians and Greeks and Cyprus. I mean look at jack straw for example he was seen as a hero for saying muslims women should remove there viels when they are talking to him but do people relise that jack straw is anti Greek and very pro turk he critised Greek Cypriots for voting NO to the annan plan for Cyprus and also Jack straw is the strongly pushing for turkey to join the EU did anyone see jacks straws face on tv on how happy he was when turkey was allowed entry talks to EU it was as if he was having a orgasm or something

Hi Greek Gurl. My background is greek too (Spartan). I was disappointed to find out about Straw too.You are right on: He stood up re: the veil but he wants to flood europe with islam. And I found many on here who understand that AS EUROPEANS they have to block Turkey, its not just "a Greek thing".
I have an exmuslim Turkish friend who keeps telling me that Turkey must never be let into Europe! I said to him that if Greeks started saying that again they would be called "racist". He said, "Yeah were you racist when they stood up against the Nazis?" (him and me are both WWII history buffs).
As for ISLAMISFORLOSERS he is one of my favorite people on here. He also said:

shiva-

Time for me to do further reading on Attaturk regarding the genocides. I once read a book on him that seemingly glossed that over. I certainly don't support that part of his program. Keeping Islamania under control is the part of his program that I do favor.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 3, 2006 11:33 AM

But I understand how you feel GreekGurl --alot of people do not know that Attaturk allowed his soldiers to eat halel and encouraged the building of mosques and had HUGE backing from Islamic sunni leaders for his programs. Attaturk was a war criminal of the worst kind no doubt.

Personally I agree with my exmuslim Turkish friend whom I inform about the postings on this site by printout (he hates the internet --long story). Anwyay he said to me today after I told him about the Turkey posts: "Attaturk thought the Turks were a superior race BY BLOOD, what other European dictator does that sound like? He is like a MAO figure in Turkey we were [brain]washed about him through school and our text books. It's crazy."

PS Attaturks 'secularisation' consisted of mostly getting rid of non muslims in Turkey killing millions of Greeks Armenians(several million), and Jews. Turkey has never admited to this holocaust although many American and Jewish scholars have done so and have called for Turkey to come clean (as Germany does even to this day). There is a 1920s NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC feature article WITH photos of the forced migrations and killings. I am trying to arrange to have the whole thing scanned and put on the net soon.

Yasou!

Susanp: You have a good point.

However, the EU has been doing a roaring trade with Turkey for years, mostly in low-priced industrial goods like television sets and so forth. Turkey's ecomony has consistently been one of the world's fastest-growing, thanks in part to the blindness and greed of European leaders.

Europe needs to cut Turkey out altogether of its trade partnerships and do the same with the remainder of the Islamosphere nations it conducts business with.

Since the EU will almost certainly NEVER agree to such draconian (if necessary) measures, the Turks will then press for the same trade agreements with Europe that the other nations that trade with the EU enjoy. And the Turks will sue to get them.

Unfortunately for Europe, the Turks will have a case. And that is the Europeans' leaders fault. They should have NEVER developed economic ties with the Islamosphere, but since they did there will be repercussions as we see here.

I only have one question. Were the Turks better off when they practiced their pre-Islamic religion? Maybe they were still a rough and brutal people, but at least they may not have used religion to justify their crimes.

THE ALLIES SHALL WIN yassou

your right jack straw told a muslim women to remove the veil when she talks to him but at the same time he wants to flood europe with turkish muslims and people are saying how great he is but people like jack straw are the ones you have to becareful of the people who worry me the most are those who say they are fighting terrorism but at the same time they saying turk muslims are secular and should be able to join EU. The westen leaders of today who say they are fighting islamic terrorism are the worst hypocrits becasue behind close doors they are the ones pushing for turkey to join the EU and also they pushing for kosovo to become muslim albanian

By the way i hope your site about attaturks crimes goes well good luck everytime i google attaturk all those turk propaganda sites come up but what pisses me of the most is how people say that attaturk is a hero who made turkey secular and got rid of islam in Turkey well all i have to say to those ignorant people is NO ataturk did NOT get rid of islam in Turkey he got rid of christianity and killed the most christians in history he murdered 5 milion christians and beheaded christians just like koran says to behead the infidels are people who say that stupid or just acting it? how can they say the muslim ataturk who killed the most christians in history is anti islamic it has to be some kind of sick joke or something