"Double standards do not make for international justice." An editorial by Raymond Ibrahim for The Los Angeles Times:
IN THE DAYS before Pope Benedict XVI's visit last Thursday to the Hagia Sophia complex in Istanbul, Muslims and Turks expressed fear, apprehension and rage. "The risk," according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, "is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege.
Built in the 6th century, Hagia Sophia — Greek for "Holy Wisdom" — was Christendom's greatest and most celebrated church. After parrying centuries of jihadi thrusts from Arabs, Constantinople — now Istanbul — was finally sacked by Turks in 1453, and Hagia Sophia's crosses were desecrated, its icons defaced. Along with thousands of other churches in the Byzantine Empire, it was immediately converted into a mosque, the tall minarets of Islam surrounding it in triumph. Nearly 500 years later, in 1935, as part of reformer Kemal Ataturk's drive to modernize Turkey, Hagia Sophia was secularized and transformed into a museum.
Protests aimed at keeping the pope out of Hagia Sophia rocked Istanbul right up to the morning of his visit to the site. Contrast that intolerance with the tolerance granted Muslims in regard to the Al Aqsa mosque — this time, an Islamic site in Jerusalem annexed by Judaism. Unlike the permanent Muslim desecration of Hagia Sophia, after Israel's victory in the 1967 war, the Jews did not deface or convert the mosque into a Jewish synagogue or temple, even though the Al Aqsa mosque is deliberately built atop the remains of the Temple Mount, the holiest site of Judaism and, by extension, an important site for Christians. Moreover, since reclaiming the Temple Mount, Israel has granted Muslims control over the Al Aqsa mosque (except during times of crises).
All this illustrates the privileged status that many Muslims expect in the international arena. When Muslims conquer non-Muslim territories — such as Constantinople, not to mention all of North Africa, Spain and southwest Asia — those whom they have conquered as well as their descendants are not to expect any apologies, let alone political or territorial concessions.
Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.
But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?
Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.
Double standards do not make for international justice. Either territorial conquests are always unjust and should therefore be ameliorated through concessions, or else they are merely a manifestation of the natural order of things — that is, survival of the fittest.
If some Muslims wish to wage eternal jihad until Islam dominates the globe, they are only being true to Islam and its doctrines as they understand it. However, in that case, where the world is divided into two warring camps, Islam and Infidelity — or, in Islamic terms, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War — how can these Muslims expect any concessions from the international community? The natural conclusion of the view that "might makes right" is "to the victor go the spoils."
The fact that Turkey conquered Constantinople more than 500 years ago does not prevent the Turkish government from returning Hagia Sophia to Christendom today, which would undoubtedly be a great gesture. But of course that can never be. The Muslim world would undergo a "paroxysm of fury" if a Christian pope dares pray in the conquered church; what would the Muslim world do if Hagia Sophia were actually converted back to a church?
Read it all.
This will probably offend but I'll say it anyway. It would have been better if the Byzantines had destroyed Hagia Sophia rather than let it stand and be defiled by the Muslims. The only way Christians will ever get it back is if it undertakes a total war and that's not going to happen. Besides, we all know the Muslims would indeed raze the place rather than allow Christians to take it back.
Quietly suggesting that Hagia Sophia be turned back into a church, I saw that my hosts, and the others present, all western, secular, utterly modern, Turks, looked at me with horror and amazement at my incomprehension. "If we did that, we would have a revolution" they told me. I didn't make that mistake again. Everything I have learned since has helped me to better understand why implacable Muslims would never accept what to sweet-reasoning but innocent Westerners, seems perfectly doable.
Another world. Another planet.
How many times do we have to say it? 2+2=5
"if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege."
Re-appropriate a Christian center? O, no! Verily this was a Moslem Mosque before the Christians came and turned it into a Church. Verily Allah is all wise, truthful, doncha know?
"after Israel's victory in the 1967 war, the Jews did not deface or convert the mosque into a Jewish synagogue or temple, even though the Al Aqsa mosque is deliberately built atop the remains of the Temple Mount,"
Verily the Jews have no connection to Jerusalem. They were really Moslems, the Temple of Solomon was really the Mosque of Suleiman. The lying infidels were Moslems but became Jews and Christians and lied about it. Verily Allah tells the truth, doncha know?
Any Questions?
Aleikum A'Salam
2+2=5
This article is so true it that it disgusts me no end. The Islamaniacs always expect that double standard to be followed, as if THAT too were in the Koran. Infidels are supposed to give and give and give some more AND smile when they steal from the infidels. Islam is not only a cult of death but the most base form of hypocrisy.
" Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large. "
Posted by Marisol
As i have come to learn , Muslims ARE in fact the greatest Hypocrites in history ( Along with being the most violent people in history )They act the whipping boy yet they commit most of the attrocities currently happening around the world . For example when six trouble making Imams go out of their way to stir up fear and resentment with their behaviour in an airport , and then get treated accordingly , and far better than they would be treated if they were Westerners in a Muslim country stirring up trouble , they Cry foul?!?!
Boo Hoo .
Enough already!
There sgould be no more appeasement. if you don't like our Customs leave . if you can't follow our laws ...Leave!
if you don't want to embrace the cultures that take you in LEAVE!!!!
And if these elements won't swear an allegiance punishable by deportation ( or death in some cases )upon violation, then we should make them
LEAVE!! see where i'm going with this?
I read article after article and watch example after example on tv of the DOUBLE STANDARDS Islam is imposing on the Peace loving Tolerant Peoples of the Globe , and i think the world is getting really getting tired of it. I know i am!!
I just don't want to see it !
Go back to the Holy land , go back where you came from!
Enjoy all the great things you obviously felt compelled to leave behind.
DOWN WITH ISLAM!
The worlds most intolerant and EVIL religion!
DUGGY-
If the dhimmitude foisted upon infidels in the ummah was applied to the "peaceful ones" in the West those already there would give thought to leaving and those thinking about coming over would probably stay put. But of course, there's that double standard again-total tolerance is expected of infidels toward Islam in the West while the Muslims constantly lord it over the infidels in the ummah. It really is sickening.
The article fails to note that the Pope did not remove his pectoral cross when we entered the mosque and prayed.
An image of an infidel in a mosque, wearing his cross and praying.
A little different than what the msm portrays.
should have said "he" vice "we."
atheling-
Welcome back.
Are you referring to August 22's post? If so you're right about the cross. Funny how the media just frames things right to make someone look bad.
" The article fails to note that the Pope did not remove his pectoral cross when we entered the mosque and prayed.
An image of an infidel in a mosque, wearing his cross and praying.
A little different than what the msm portrays."
Posted by: atheling
Would a Muslim make such a concession?
just curious.
Is there any harm in letting A POPE be a POPE?
Was Islam harmed or threatened by this?
What was the point again?
"why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine..."
This is a mistake. "Palestine" -- the name used historically in Western Christendom to describe that area known to its original inhabitants, the Jews, as the Land of Isarel -- was not a "Muslim region that was conquered" but rather a region first conquered by Muslims, and then by Christians, and then by Muslims and then finally, by the British who drove out the Turks, and drove the Turks out of all the Ottoman domains in the Middle East. It was the Jews who had been, before World War I, and long after, buying land from both Turkish and Arab (usually absentee) landowners, and who, as the intended beneficiaries of the Mandate for Palestine (the Mandates for Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq were another matter, and so was the disposition of the lands of the Arabian peninsula, and North Africa), inherited by right the "state and waste lands" formerly claimed by the Ottoman government, then passed to the British as Mandatory authority, and then to the government of Israel.
The jihadists operate the same way that Stalin did. What's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable.
Somebody needs to translate Hugh's 2nd post into (the most simple) Arabic and send it to Abbas and his fellow palestinians. Perhaps THAT might cut down on their excessive whining about their "stolen homeland".
"What was the point again?"
posted by DUGGY
Answer: "To make nicey-nice to the Muzlims so they don't rage and rampage and slay more infidels."
Moreover, when he was invited into the Blue Mosque nearby, he respectfully took off his shoes and prayed, eyes downcast, standing next to the the grand mufti of Istanbul like a true dhimmi — a subdued non-Muslim living under Islamic law and acknowledging Islamic superiority.
Indeed.
Posted by: August22
Glad I missed that, though points re. how the MSM frame and fine-tune things are very well-taken.
And I would have liked the Pope to at least cross himself inside Hagia Sophia, so as to help out the Orthodox Christians there whom the Vatican said this trip was supposed to be made for.
And what Hugh said is my experience as well. Whenever I meet turks here or even in other countries and I am introduced as a German it's always something like: "You Germans don't like us very much." So if it's a cute girl I'll say something to the effect well they're not all as cute as you are, sweetheart notr as well-behaved. Or I'll reply more in general: "We like people according to their behavior and respect toward us." or "What reason could we possibLy have to dislike turks?".
It is this immediate demand of clarification and mollification that stands out here. I am very well prepared to lay out the turkish and by extension the larger islamic psyche. Even the most "liberal" or Westernized among them will always demand these forms of "a priori" submission. And given our WW2 History Germans in particular are not at all well equipped to counter that. Even the things I say in a sly way deserve to be said much more bluntly. As in: "What kind of a statement is that?" Or: "Oh, I thought it was the turks who hate the Germans - seeing how they treated the Pope." or "How are we supposed to like people who convert churches into mosks and how do we know they don't have their eyes on our German churches next?"
Same goes for the other European countries of course.
When it comes to islam = CAVEAT EMPTOR!
Quietly suggesting that Hagia Sophia be turned back into a church, I saw that my hosts, and the others present, all western, secular, utterly modern, Turks, looked at me with horror and amazement at my incomprehension. "If we did that, we would have a revolution" they told me. I didn't make that mistake again. Everything I have learned since has helped me to better understand why implacable Muslims would never accept what to sweet-reasoning but innocent Westerners, seems perfectly doable.
Another world. Another planet.
Posted by: Hugh
@Hugh: A revolution is exactly what they need. One way or the other. Either they get "with it" in a hurry and my opinions on that one are clear. They have revealed themselves time and time again. OR they get so crazy that even the last PC LiEberal left finally HAS to wake up to the realities of this islamic beast which threatens to devour us all.
"The risk," according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, "is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege.
I for one would be willing to take that risk. :-) In fact I'd LOVE to. LET'S HAVE IT OUT!! Let the turks show their best face to the world. Where it can no longer be ignored.
Let them over-react to a tiny Christian gesture in what used to and still is.. a church. Even if it is in hostile lands.
Everything I have learned since has helped me to better understand why implacable Muslims would never accept what to sweet-reasoning but innocent Westerners, seems perfectly doable.
Another world. Another planet.
And the gravity binding that planetary system is the persistent threat of personal ruination, injury, or murder. Their unifying penchant for solidarity, bigotry, being offended, anger, and violence is what makes their Earth spin in the opposite direction of ours.
Their operating principle of violence was laid down over the course of 15 yrs from to 618 to 632 AD, and has consolidated since, without the slightest bit of decay.
Germaninamerica - Given the history of the Ottoman Empire, it is an act of chutzpah for a Turk to attempt to mau-mau a modern German with the Third Reich. Thankfully, Germany was off the rails for less that two decades under Hitler, while the Ottomans had a rule of terror lasting centuries.
I am amazed that the LA Times, of all papers, would run this op-ed. Perhaps the tide is starting to turn in the war of information. Dare we hope?
I see. So this means that Minneapolis, the largest city in the Northern Caliphate, is now and forever part of the Dar al Islam.
Incidentally, the city government of Minneapolis has officially designated an area of the city (around 32nd and Chicago Avenue - basically Lake and Chicago) as a no-go zone for infidels. It seems that the Muslim brothers have become a bit overly enthusiastic in extracting the jizya, beating and pistol whipping the infidels even after they have handed over all their valuables. It appears that these collections occur daily at around 5:30 PM.
I am serious about this. There are regular announcements on the radio warning infidels not to enter this area. I assume that all infidels already knew about the Cedar-Riverside area.
Allahu akbar.
I'll be looking forward to Mr. Ibrahim's book. here's a plug for anyone who overlooked it:
RAYMOND IBRAHIM is a research librarian at the Library of Congress. His book, "The Al Qaeda Reader," translations of religious texts and propaganda, will be published in April.
December 5, 2006
I’m still trying to figure out Raymond Ibrahim’s angle here.
But what can you expect from an Egyptian who graduated from California State University - Fresno with a B.A. and M.A. and is currently working for his Ph.d at Georgetown University, while writing his book, “The Al Qaeda Reader.”
On one hand, he seems to admire Islam and dhimmitude status, while on the other, he seems to be pointing out the duplicitous nature of Islam’s rhetoric. I think he has a case of “University Psychosis.”
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Here's the deal. Our elites are not going to stop the influx of Muslim immigration into Western countries because of their belief in cultural relativism and their faith that all people just want the same things, and that at heart we all share the same values. Consequently, the sh*t will only hit the fan when the Muslims move to take power. By then, there will be too many Muslims in Western countries for us to kick them out. As they keep saying, "We are here to stay." So, the first thing that will happen when there are enough of them is that they will demand and get Sharia law in relation to family law as they have in India and Singapore. The second thing they will demand and get is state funded Islamic schools. These actions will accelerate the Islamization of our societies. Then, when there around 50 percent of the population, they will take over as in Malaysia and the rest of us will be treated as dhimmis while doing most of the productive labor. Where the latter situation happens, large numbers of infidels will leave to other countries where the Muslims have not yet taken over. The remaining infidels will as happened historically over and over again in Muslim countries will gradually convert to Islam because of economic and social discrimination.
So, there you have it. In a hundred years, most of the world will be Muslim as long as our current elites stay in power. If we don't take the reins of power from our governing elites, we are doomed. I see no hope.
Minneapolis has officially designated an area of the city (around 32nd and Chicago Avenue - basically Lake and Chicago) as a no-go zone for infidels.
Unoffical no-go zone, Norseman. Although with Keith Ellison in Congress he might be looking for making a few Sharia Zones up here. I could just see Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Carl Levin and Mayor RT Rybak, and columnist Doug Grow at the ribbon cutting ceremony.
But, if City Hall makes it offical, things might spark up a bit. Remember, we're a conceal & carry state.
MUHAMMEDAPOLIS ALERT!
http://www.mplscrimewatch.blogspot.com/
Dangerous robbery suspect arrested
November 28, 2006 (MINNEAPOLIS) Yesterday at Noon, members of the Minneapolis Police VCAT Unit (Violent Crimes Apprehension Team) arrested Cornelius Rick Davis, 21 (AKA Saleem Muhammed) in St. Paul. MN. MPD investigators were able to use witness identification and physical evidence to link Davis to the robbery of business at the Super America, 2618 Lowry Av. N. which occurred on 11/16/06. MPD will present an Aggravated Robbery case to the Hennepin County Attorney's Office for consideration of charges later this morning.
Davis fits the physical description and his method of operation also closely matches that of the suspect involved in the robbery/attempt murder at the Lowry Penn Market Deli, 2205 Lowry Av. N., on 11/24/06, in which Joe Thao was critically injured by a knife-wielding suspect. Mr. Thao's condition continues to improve.
Due to the on-going investigation, photos of Davis will be held until witnesses and Mr. Thao have an opportunity to view them.
Anyone with information regarding the robbery at the Lowry Penn Market Deli is asked to call the lead investigator Sgt. Fred McDonald at 612-673-3706.
=========
Robbery spree--Lake and Chicago Area
KSTP is reporting that Minneapolis Police are investigating a string of street robberies in the area of Chicago Avenue around Lake Street to 32nd Street. These robberies are being committed by a group of 16 to 25 year old males. They have used/brandished weapons, and haven't been caught.
I have noticed the pattern that these robberies, as well as a number around the Universities in St. Paul are occurring at or just after sunset. Please be aware of this when in the area. Stay on the lookout, and call the Police if you see anything suspicious.
posted by Max @ 12:26:00 PM
I have been back from Istanbul a month now and as a Greek American I saw this ancient church as sacred but the chances of it becoming a church again, not in my life time. Most of the Turkish people I met and taught were happy it was a museum and did not desire to see it become a Mosque again, they have about 22,000 Mosques in Istanbul. I went inside about 4-5 times and yes I prayed (one prayer Robert requested) and I saw some tourist doing the sign of the cross and praying out loud. I do not think they are worried about the average tourist praying inside the Agia Sophia, but the Pope is a different story. I am glad they are uncovering the mosaics from the Christian period, but I am sure there are some Muslims there who hate it, most I talked to did not care. The one thing I learned in the five months I was there was Istanbul is not the real Turkey, so the chances of it being turned back into a Mosque in the future is much greater than it ever becoming a church again or in my humble opinion, it is the Turks from Anatolia I worry about. I would like to see it become a church again but it is not reality. Even though most of the Turks I met were great people I have never changed my mind about Turkey being denied entry into the EU. I still think the results would be the same as after the battle of Manzikert in 1071 AD. The end of both Europe modern liberal culture and Her Christian heritage.
a good article, the main thrust of it is only too true.
unfortunately, i have never been very good at paroxysms, maybe i am just too reserved.
August, that was ON POINT! Must reading for the politicians the 'professors' and the media heads..
Typical Muslim hypocracy - heads I win, tails it's a do-over.
Hugh,
You are mostly right about the Palestinians, but no totally. The Palestinians are the descendents of the originally pagan inhabitants of the area that God gave to the Jews before the Jews got there. God ordered the Jews to kill them all, but the Jews didn't and now look at the trouble they've inherited. Where I totally agree with you is that these people were not muslim before the Jews got there. That came many, many centuries later. Maybe the moon god worshipers just want to support the baal worshipers. Could it be???
Karl
muslims are hypocrites what if we where to get the hajj black stone which is a imoprtant place in islam and we made it a church or musuem how would they like it?
agia sophia was the most important church in orthodoxy and to our religion everytime i hear muslims say that constantinople was a great conquest but then I actually i was doing a search and went on a muslims website and do you know that in the koran muhammed prophecised that constantinople would be taken by his people so it was a selffullying prohecy in other words mohammed ordered muslims to steal constantinople
verse from koran
Surely, Constantinople (Istanbul) will be conquered (by my community); how blessed the commander who will conquer it, and how blessed his army.13
i guess thats why constantinople was stolen by muslims becasue muhammed the evil man told them to
I first encountered this web site a couple of months ago, and I wanted to take the opportunity to thank Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitgerald, and the various posters for making JihadWatch such a useful resource.
Like many westerners, I previously had only a general sense of the danger posed by Islamic terrorism and the "useful idiots" who act on their behalf. It probably took the Hezbollah missile attacks this summer to make everything "click" in my mind and to appreciate the brazeness and aggressiveness of our enemy. Unlike many, I am capable of understanding or at least identifying the outlines of what is best described as evil. I wasn't necessarily looking for it, so I admit to being asleep at the switch for a while.
I have taken the opportunity to educate myself through websites like this one, books, articles, and everything else I could find. (As a Michigan person, I highly recommend www.dearbornunderground.blogspot.com for a local view from the heart of the beast).
Like many people posting on this site, I feel compelled to act, and am unsure how to make some sort of difference in the struggle that threatens our way of life. I realize that some people are unreachable, and that every evil ideology is going to have its 5th column supporters in the West. However, there are people who can be reached who are not. It seems to me that there is more that could be done to persuade people who are open to being persuaded, but are not necessarily looking to being persuaded.
I guess what I am asking is, is there a short, concise, and persuasive document (e.g. a top 10 list of why Islamic ideology is a greater threat than you would imagine) that can be used to bring people over to our point of view? We need some type of first aid kit to de-program people from the knee-jerk PC attitude which preclude awareness of the problem.
Any suggestions?
I have gone through various stages of fear, education, and anger . . . I would like to act in some affirmative way.
As a person of Polish decent, I adopt the Sobieski banner to remind myself that victory is possible. An appreciation for the necessity and merit of victory needs to be replanted, and look forward to suggestions as to gardening tools.
JSobieski,
For me, it starts with understanding what the Qur'an is really saying: Kill the Unbelievers and the People of the Book (Jews and Christians).
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
August 22:
Your writing is so refined and your points well executed. You rival Hugh.
Keep on writing!
As you have said many times, we must destroy the left before we destroy Islam. Unfortunately, it is the monumental task laid before a great civilization in its twilight. It is going to be enveloped by the black maw that is Islam.
Sounds like a terminal bad case of PaPaPhobia to me.
http://cyberray-rays.blogspot.com/2006/11/pope-phobia.html#links
Doctor Bulldog - great video - but in his defense, you have to admit 1) that cow was cute and 2) she was a temptress - completely at fault... She had to know how lonely he was...
Madduck - may there be as many mosques in Denmark as there are synagogues in Saudi..
Great Article!
Everyone needs to read this post from Laura Mansfield's Blog:
http://blog.lauramansfield.com/2006/11/29/uk-members-of-muslim-boys-gang-guilty-of-killing.aspx
This is what is coming to a town near you!
"'Palestine' -- the name used historically in Western Christendom to describe that area known to its original inhabitants, the Jews, as the Land of Isarel -- was not a "Muslim region that was conquered" but rather a region first conquered by Muslims, and then by Christians, and then by Muslims and then finally, by the British who drove out the Turks, and drove the Turks out of all the Ottoman domains in the Middle East. It was the Jews who had been, before World War I, and long after, buying land from both Turkish and Arab (usually absentee) landowners, and who, as the intended beneficiaries of the Mandate for Palestine (the Mandates for Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq were another matter, and so was the disposition of the lands of the Arabian peninsula, and North Africa), inherited by right the "state and waste lands" formerly claimed by the Ottoman government, then passed to the British as Mandatory authority, and then to the government of Israel."
This history reveals Biblical prophesy. In Daniel 7:6 it says "After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it."
This verse speaks of the third great wind of change in human history (the leopard). The first (the lion with eagles wings) spoke of democracy (born out of English and American government), and the second was international communism (the bear). The third (a leopard with four heads and four wings) is the Jihad that threatens the world today.
It is debatable whether the four heads represent the "big four" powers who oversaw the breakup and formation of the new Islamic nations that bother us today (England, France, America, and Italy), or what the four wings represent (possibly the "Palestinian burden" laid upon the backs of our enemies), but the statement "and dominion was given to it" is most certainly the lands mandated by the Allies after World War I. It describes precisely what happened when nations like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq just suddenly were premitted to become semi-autonomous states following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
By the way, the 6-day War is described in Isaiah 11:14: "But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines ("Palestinians") toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together (Egyptian Sinai): they shall lay their hand upon Edom (the Golan Hights) and Moab (the West Bank of the Jordan); and the children of Ammon shall obey them (Jordan was "persuaded" to stay out of the fight).
Don't anyone ever try to tell you that the Bible is as full of rubbish as the Quran. Biblical prophesy has and IS coming about as it says. God's Word is true, and 'allah's' word is perversion.
On the main point about Muslim hypocracy, arrogance and bully tactics, I'm in agreement with this writer, but it's wrong - or at least premature - to characterize this pope as a dhimmi. Even if his deference to the wishes of his Islamic hosts on that occasion is seen as a sign of weakness, a position that's questionable to say the least, he is not a dhimmi until he accepts the terms of dhimma - payment of the jizya and acquiescence to legally inferior status - in perpetuity and on his own home turf in Rome. There's no reason to think that Benedict is willing to go there and until or unless he does, this "dhimmi" label is just namecalling, like the application of the name "commie" to just about any and every known left wing or liberal thinker was when it occassionally happened amidst outbursts of hysteria during the Red scare. It's just a gratuitous insult, and a reflection of paranoia, that adds nothing of value to the debate over Islam or the Church's and the West's response to it.
The critics of the Pope who insist on labelling him thus overlook the fact that a cautious, diplomatic and neutral Vatican that resists bellicose posturing is a tradition that has been developing in Europe for nearly 200 years with deep roots in the settlement of the Revolutionary upheavals that began in 1789, including the struggle for Italian unification and the signing of the Lateran treaties. It is part of what Europeans demanded of the Papacy, and for good European reasons that had little or nothing to do with any thought of Islamic aggression or dhimmification. Those who insist on bashing Ratzinger should consider that the old crusader mentality was bound up with developments that made the Papacy an armed power unto itself in Europe with sovereignty over extensive lands of its own, and that the wars it waged under such Popes as Julius II were as often as not against other European powers. Should anyone wonder then that the Papacy, used to having its own way in Europe did nothing to stop religious wars and the persecution of Protestants and other heretics in Europe? As I've said elsewhere in this forum, you may not be able to have Urban II without getting Julius II, so be glad for the Popes you've got, even if you regard them as too eager to keep the peace. History shows there is good reason for the emergence of this arrangement, a necesity to consolidation of the European secular state, and no pope should ever have to be the one who first starts calls for war anywhere. For Christianity - a true religion of peace - this would be a spectacular moral disaster.
The fondness with which Ratzinger's predecessor, the last Benedict (XV), is remembered in Turkey for his efforts to bring aid and relief to that country's victims of the First World War, during a time when Turkey and Islam could hardly have been imagined a threat to modern Europe on their own, demonstrates that this pacific policy is based on Christian benevolence and peace-making, not weakness in the face of an Islamic menace such as we see rising again today.
Pope Ratzinger may not be moving fast enough for some of you in ratifying Europeans' emerging resistance to Jihad, but the Church is an ancient institution that carries a great deal of baggage, including numerous, and sometimes conflicting, moral obligations to an innumerable variety of competing interests, and it has to play a delicate balancing act in the development of its policies. Benedict has, at the very least, begun shifting the form of the encounter with Islam to a frank and forceful confrontation of important substantial issues that Muslims would rather not face, and this is an extremely important start that lays the groundwork for more robust measures to unfold in future. Stay tuned, and let's see where he goes from here. If nothing further happens, and all he does is revert to his predecessors' policies of only mouthing empty platitudes about Islam, I'll eventually join the ranks of his critics, but that outcome is not clear yet, to say the least.
Benedict - and this is the reason I defend him here at Jihadwatch as persistently as I do - is about the ONLY European head of state who gets it at all about Islam these days, or is at all willing to even hint at it openly, having made it known that he regards Islam as deeply flawed, and the fact that he's also Europe's preeminent spiritual leader should give some grounds for hope that Europe may come back to itself and survive this.
for as long as the "liberal media" is in charge, and create victims. muslims will be able to get away with everything. musliims love to be percieved as the perpetual victim, code word for them is "humilate" and poof they are victims forever, and nothing you do will be good enough, so they take and take. but soon the bubble will burst, and with some people talk about "end times", l dont think there is any getting around it, as nothing will get done, till something dreadful happens.
BunrattyBill,
LOL - Yeah, you're probably right about that cow! She was uncovered meat... *grin*
cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
That articles like this are written about something that should be so concretely obvious to all, is a real sign that we have barely begun to shed light on the dangers from Islam for the majority of Western society.
Islamic hypocrisy runs deep, but Islamic hatred of all things infidel, and the desire to own them or destroy them, run even deeper.
http://www.foehammer.net
Thought this is appropriate - going through some articles of World news .. this one caught my attention .. I guess this Chan 4 stuff is some UK television netwrok...
...........................
Channel 4's alternative Christmas message to feature broadcaster in veil
Channel 4 is to reignite controversy over the wearing of the veil - by featuring a Muslim woman in full niqab giving the broadcaster's alternative Christmas message.
The woman, today named only as Khadija and said to be a lecturer in Islamic studies, will go head-to-head with the Queen when she gives her annual speech to the nation on 25 December.
Producers are said to have "discovered" her after a month-long search for a suitable candidate. A spokesman for the channel added: "We felt it fitting that Channel 4's alternative Christmas message should be given by a Muslim woman in a year when issues of religious and racial identity and freedom of expression have dominated the news agenda.
"Khadija has a wide range of interesting views about life as a British Muslim woman"
Khadija - who is in her early thirties and from the Midlands - caught TV bosses' attention for "being articulate, engaging and interesting".
She is due to record the speech within the coming fortnight and is expected to reflect on the past year.
While the channel is refusing to give more specific details of her background for fear that she will be inundated with interview requests, they said she was born in Zimbabwe, is a British citizen and has been wearing the full niqab - which covers everything but the eyes - for ten years.
The decision to broadcast such a contentious alternative comes after several years during which Channel 4 has screened light-hearted, jokey messages by celebrities such as Jamie Oliver and Sharon Osbourne.
The last time a serious issue was tackled was in 2001, when World Trade Centre survivor Genelle Guzman gave the speech.
From the LA Times article quoted above, one could easily conclude that Muslims have serious amnesia when it comes to recalling the history of Islamic imperialism.
As recently as November 18, 2006, in Ankara, Turkey, when the Pope was greeted by a senior member of the Turkish government, Mr. Bardakoglu,publicly proclaimed, for all the world to hear, that the spread of Islam by the sword has no basis in “any scientific and historical research or data.”
Worldwide reaction to this blatantly false statement of outrageous proportions? A deafening silence! Not one, but several respected Muslim scholars (and non-Muslims historians alike) have recorded centuries of Islamic conquests, in all their barbaric glory, with such meticulous detail that to reject this indisputable evidence is tantamount to Holocaust denial.
If history were the only element that Muslims are in denial about maybe there would be some hope of intitiating the "athentic dialog" that Pope Benedict keeps referring to. But when even the slightest legitimate criticism of the Islamic belief system results in widespread rage and violence, what are the chances that we will see meaningful reform any time soon?
OHara
This link is worth a read
http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/international/westerneurope/index.html?offset=28187&fid=.f6dbc3f/28187
What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. Very Koranic.
The author could make the same argument about the expression of religion. If it's OK for Saudi Arabia to not allow churches or any public expression of non Wahabbi religion then why not the same rules in the US and UK? No mosques, no prostelizing and no selling of the Koran.
It is good to see this in the LA Times.
Mentat,
I fully agree with what you said about the process of Islamization.
I can see it happening in Indonesia, which used to be a secular country.
They all follow the same modus operandi, which is when some of them become 'pious' Muslims, then the 'pious' muslims will surely but surely demand sharia, by intimidation or otherwise. Of course with the help of petro dollars.
The rest, by that I mean, the infidels and the 'moderate' muslims or the unpious muslims, by the time they realize what's happening, it is too late.
Islamization is right now happening in Indonesia, and the outside world is not concerned at all.
Doctor Bulldog - was that a trailer from "Cowback Mountain"???
Interesting note: Australia's Prime Minister Howard said in February:
"I stand by those comments that there is a small section of the Islamic population in Australia that, because of its remarks about jihad, remarks which indicate an extremist view, that is a problem,"
"It is not a problem that we have ever faced with other immigrant communities who become easily absorbed by Australia's mainstream."
"Australians wanted people to assimilate"
"We want people when they come to Australia to adopt Australians ways. We don't ask them to forget the countries of their birth, we respect all religious points of views and people are entitled to practise them but there are certainly things that are not part of the Australian mainstream." and
"There is within some sections of the Islamic community an attitude towards women which is out of line with mainstream Australian society," he said.
The Aussies are starting to speak out publically.
A government minister is reported to have said something like, if you don't like Australian ways then "get off".
"I would have liked the Pope to at least cross himself inside Hagia Sophia, so as to help out the Orthodox Christians there whom the Vatican said this trip was supposed to be made for"
Posted by Germaninamerica.
I think its important, especially given the author's points about the predictable hot-blooded, paranoid and defensive reactions this could have generated among Turks, to bear in mind the question of possible repurcussions that such a gesture could have had on the fragile Christian minority in turkey. I'd say that the Pope was wise to avoid gestures that could inflame any further violent responses, and that this will be the best policy until such time as European opinion, including that of Europe's political leaders, demonstrates a lot more willingness than it has right now to defend these people in concrete ways, or to stick its neck out against Islamic aggression.
T.E. Lawrence said, in his only book: "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom", that the only reason he was famous as Lawrence of Arabia, was that he could get seven Arabs to attack the same train on the same day.
From that I take the meaning to be that only a strong leader can focus the believers in the task at hand.
This suggests a way to deal with Islam. Cut of the heads of their leaders.
My own take is that Islam is intrinsically inferior. There are many reasons, but just the lack of use of 1/2 their population guarantees lack of competiveness.
There desperate revival of a failed approach, can not do anything more than deepen their failure.
That is not to say that we should relax. My best guess is that eventually they will irritate the West enough to produce a serious effort to deal with their stupidity. Since they respect only force, so be it.
Personally I find their anger boring.
Richard of Morgan Hill
"It probably took the Hezbollah missile attacks this summer to make everything "click" in my mind and to appreciate the brazeness and aggressiveness of our enemy."
Funny, my Leftist friend (100% American, 52 years old, born in Utah of Catholic parents then converted to Greek Orthodoxy) only dug in his heels all the more after that incident, blaming Israel, of course, and exonerating the Muslims.
Its up to us to remind Muslims what Muslims are capable of. Most Muslims only see themselves as the victims, never the aggressors.
My Blog
The Future War With Islam.
Sounder- "There is within some sections of the Islamic community an attitude towards women which is out of line with mainstream Australian society," Australia's Prime Minister Howard.
The muslim women are the key in this battle. We should set up shelters for those that want to escape the madness of islam. Our laws are very friendly to women who resort to violence in order to protect themselves. There are probably alot of women who are tired of being property and just need an avenue to esape. Come on ladies. You can start the revolution.
Papa Bear said
The reason it's okay for the Saudis to kill anyone practicing non-Islamic religions while funding massive proselytizing programs in non-Islamic countries, is because Islam is the one true religion, while Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Bahaism, Zoroastrionism, and the rest are all false religions. Allah wants the true religion to spread across the world, and wants the false religions to be killed off (with a little assistance from human jihadists). And who can argue with Allah's will?
So sayeth the Islamic clerics, you know, the ones who dedicate their lives to studying what the Qur'an really teaches, not what Bush-Blair-Rice-Armstrong-Esposito-CAIR say it teaches. See for yourself. (Thanks to rafa for the link).
Quietly suggesting that Hagia Sophia be turned back into a church, I saw that my hosts, and the others present, all western, secular, utterly modern, Turks, looked at me with horror and amazement at my incomprehension. "If we did that, we would have a revolution" they told me.
I don't feel that this reaction is indicative of religious intolerance. It is simply the old adage "possession is 9/10th of the law".
As an Californian American, if you had quietly suggested that we return my state back to Mexico, Spain, or the indians, you would get the same reaction from me. And the US had had California for far less time than the Turks have had this church/mosque.
If you ask an Aussie to return their country back to the Aboriginals, you will get the same reaction.
I, for one, am sick and tired of the calls to "correct" history in the world. If the Turks should give back this temple, then the Israelis should go back to Europe. Where does it stop?
I repeat, as I noted here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014298.php
concerning the Dennis Prager/Ellison issue:
And so we have it. The one thing both Muslims and Jews have in common: they both deny the devinity of Christ. Interesting. Very interesting.
Maybe Cair (supporting 1% of the population) and the ADL (supporting 2.5% of the population) should join forces?
Ashtung Baby! said
Hmm, now that you mention it, the Hindus deny the divinity of Christ. Very interesting. And the Buddhists, they also deny the divinity of Christ. I'm starting to see a pattern. It seems all non-Christians deny the divinity of Christ! You have a point. And it is at the top of your head.
"If the Turks should give back this temple, then the Israelis should go back to Europe. Where does it stop?"
Posted by: Yankinwaoz
That's a little extreme. We're talking about one building, not the whole country, a building of great historic significance to Turkish Christians, but none whatsoever to Muslims except as a symbolic affirmation of conquest and subjugation of the previous inhabitants.
In Canada, the US, Australia and other western nations, it is accepted as a given that the aboriginal nations that first occupied these lands are entitled to lands settlements, and other concessions, such as the return of artifacts, that restore somewhat the place of pride that they have as the first occupants. Why shouldn't the Christians of Turkey be able to expect as much, especially if the Turks want to think of themselves as part of a culture they share in common with "Europeans"?
Speaking of the desecration of churches, let us not forget that some 30,000 temples were destroyed by Muslim invaders of India. I have no idea of the Buddhist temples that were destroyed in India and Afghanistan by the same.
Some more examples of dhimmiotude from the UK - I know, so what's different, but here it is anyway.
MIGRANTS hoping to settle in the UK are to be taught how to rake in state hand-outs.
They will be shown how to claim benefits, demand equal rights, make full use of the NHS and get parental leave.
Labour will expect immigrants to know such information as part of the Government’s “Britishness test”.
http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/
And
Veiled woman to give C4's speech
A veiled Muslim woman will deliver this year's alternative Christmas speech on Channel 4, the broadcaster has said.
Khadija, a Zimbabwean-born British citizen who has been wearing the full veil - or niqab - for 10 years, has been given the slot.
The message will reflect a year in which the wearing of religious clothing and symbols have "dominated the news agenda", said a Channel 4 spokesman.
A counterpoint to the Queen's Christmas speech first appeared on C4 in 1993.
The spokesman added that the specific contents of the message would be released closer to Christmas Day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6210324.stm
Yes "special_guest", maybe you should get away from the left and right coasts of our great country and take a good long look at what composes the vast majority of Americans. Amazing a church on every corner. Christians are everywhere. You will find "special_guest" that hindus, muslims, and yes, jews are rare here. If anything could be called a Christian country this is it.
And dont think the Christians arent noticing. They are.
Turks do not originate from Turkey but from much further East.
@special_guest
That guy in the UTube video is definitely a descendant of a monkey.
You know, these Muslims, they don't "think" or "feel" or "believe" they have the one and only religion...
THEY KNOW!!! Like 2+2=6. They just know it.
BTW, I HOPE THIS MUSLIM REMEMBERED TO SHAVE HIS BALLS!
(5) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the fitra (proper Islam): circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short." (Book #72, Hadith #777)
(6) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "To shave the pubic hair. to clip the nails and to cut the moustaches short, are characteristics of the fitra." (Book #72, Hadith #778)
(7) Narrated Abu Huraira : I heard the Prophet saying. "Five practices are characteristics of the fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." (Book #72, Hadith #779)
(8) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said "Five things are in accordance with Al fitra (i.e. the tradition of prophets): to be circumcised, to shave the pelvic region, to pull out the hair of the armpits, to cut short the moustaches, and to clip the nails.' (Book #74, Hadith #312)
"Nearly 500 years later, in 1935, as part of reformer Kemal Ataturk's drive to modernize Turkey, Hagia Sophia was secularized and transformed into a museum."
I'm not sure what modernization Ataturk achieved beyond solidifying his and his military's ultimate rule without interference from imam's and religious leaders. Turkey never improved or modernized in any way, if it did we would have seen these gestures of allowing the conquered their freedoms and rights.
We have the great Hagia Sophia that the Pope could not pray in without offending Muslim's, yet the Pope prayed over Ataturk's grave.
How twisted can this world become? I guess on his next trip to Germany we should expect a prayer over Hitler's tomb as well. This event drove me crazy, as a Greek I'm appalled that the Pope would make such a gesture to the man responsible for the atrocities committed against Greek and Armenian Christians. I guess that is relevant to this article about the double standard that exists in the world today.
Islamists are demanding the removal of St. Georges cross from the English flag because it reminds them of the awful crusades, yet we do prayers for Muslim mass murderers. Our appeasement to this insidious group seems to have no limits, yet we still do not see the argument or problem.
Last night at work, my most frustrating place on earth, I was told repeatedly that no one but myself sees these things. How do you argue with this, I've been doing it for years now and people simply cannot see what is going on around them.
I truly feel the world will be lost, as the blind have been empowered to remain unaware of the dangers they face.
Niv
Belgium: Muslims Stone Jewish Children
A story I found in Expatica News caught my attention. It described how Jewish children, who were visiting Beringen, in Limburg province, Belgium, were set upon by "local residents of foreign origins." I tried to think which people "of foreign origins" would want to attack a group of Jewish schoolchildren.
Being of a suspicious mind, I Googled, and eventually found more information, care of Islam in Europe, backed up by reports in Dutch from HLN.be and Eyes and in English from JTA News. Their attackers were, unsurprisingly, Muslim youths of Turkish origin. What is bizarre is why Expatica bothered to report the ethnicity of the victims, but not their assailants.
http://www.westernresistance.com/
I don’t know if this is based on principle, or if its just easier not to deal with the issue, or if it all just boils down to cash, but here’s a good sign out of the Upper Midwest.
Professor Barrett, that nutty Islamic Studies professor that O’Reilly has been tracking, won’t be offered a ‘teaching position’ next semester. This according to the Alumni Foundation who keeps groveling for donations. It sounds like I’m not the only one who’s been giving them a hard time.
Here’s a press release that has been circulated prior to the news:
http://www.news.wisc.edu/barrettissue/.
The fanatic said:
"How twisted can this world become? I guess on his next trip to Germany we should expect a prayer over Hitler's tomb as well."
Fortunately, such a tomb does not exist. Hitler's (and Eva Braun's) remains were gathered up by the Russians, and lie in a box in an archive in Moscow. As far as I know, there is no monument marking Hitler's ultimate demise in Germany.
"What is bizarre is why Expatica bothered to report the ethnicity of the victims, but not their assailants."
Indeed. You'd think that any mention that they were Jewish would have been held from the story. That being leaked was obviously a mistake. That the attackers were Muslims is absolutely NO surprise whatsoever.
Ashtung Baby!, there are not many things that bug me more than blatant anti-Semitism, but being anti-Semitic and trying to draw comparisons between Judaism and Islam would qualify. I would overlook almost any fault to find common ground with anti-jihadists, no matter what their other beliefs. But you, sir or madame, exceed my threshold.
You're right. There are a lot of churches in the U.S. Have a nice day.
Ashtung --
This is a non-sectarian site. All are welcome, as the jihad threatens all of our rights to believe what we wish.
Ashtung Baby!, what IS the point of what you are saying about those who deny the divinity of Christ, and what does that have to do with the above topic? It sort of seems like you have a tangent that you wish to beat some of us over the head with, with no regard to what the discussion is about.
"The risk," according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, "is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury so what if the Muslim. fury they riot at the drop of a hat anyways them let them riot is always tear gas and water cannon to canonize them would.if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege.and Hagia Sophia's crosses were desecrated, its icons defaced. Along with thousands of other churches in the Byzantine Empire, it was immediately converted into a mosque,
this seems somewhat typical for Moslem the idea of returning property that Muslims have taken in their conquest they seem to have a schizophrenic idia you can not give anything back to the people they have taken it from so I say the blazes with the Muslim rage if the Hagia Sophi awas returned to the Orthodox Church and reconstituted as a Christian church, perhaps if the pope was able to get in return of Christendom greatest church by Turkey in exchange for the churches support in entering European Union along with the reopening of the seminaries in Turkey might make the Turks think about returning to church seeing all Muslims and the turks did not have the right take it in the first place it would go a long way towards peace. Our other hoe is that Cyprus manages in a new war be Turkey since they are Christian I do not see why they would not reopen the Hagia Sophia as the church it is
Attention Asstongue:
We recognize you for what you are. If your faith is so fragile that you cannot tolerate others who do not share your beliefs, what else can you be but weak of faith? Christ has not commanded you to hate Jews. You seem to be on your own with that.
Back to Hagia Sophia, it is very disgusting/depressing to see the huge wooden rondells covered in arabic calligraphy defacing the church.
yohannbiimu,
Actually I am aware that no such site exists in Germany, however it was a point made in spirit of this prayer.
I understand that this is ultimately a Christian principle to forgive those who transgressed against us, but I find it reprehensible in light of what still goes on in that great secular country known as Turkey.
Can someone please stop praising that mass murderer, he achieved no reforms and laid the foundation for an even more formidable Islamic military threat.
Niv
I affirm the divinity of Christ. I am not ashamed of Him.
"I affirm the divinity of Christ. I am not ashamed of Him."
As do I; however, it would appear that this "Ashtung Baby!" person wants to use the point that Judaism-practicing Jews who deny the divinity of Christ are on the same side as suicide-bombing Jihadis, and should be targetted as such. I am not going to "come out" on the side of someone who is obviously an anti-semite, and wants to use this forum to spread an "us" (Christians) "against them" (everybody else) orthodoxy.
As MarisolJW eloquently said, this is a non-sectarian site for ALL who are concerned about Islamic violence, and the dangers of the world's most intolerant religion.
Muslims stone Jewish children:
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=24&story_id=34831
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003446.html#comments
"The leaders of the school group called the police, but even after the arrival of police, the youths continues to throw stones and shout insults for about an hour. Once the aggression had subsided, the Muslims continued to stay in the vicinity of the hostel. As a result, police decided that they could not guarantee the schoolboys' safety, and escorted them to the highway for them to return to Antwerp.
Four adults and six youths under the age of 18 were arrested, and at the weekend they were brought before a district court. All were sentenced to 30 hours' of community service, and were ordered to pay compensation to the youth hostel. The commune (district authority) issued an apology to the schoolchildren. It may press charges once all information on the case is clarified." (From the above story)
This is disgusting! Muslim brutality is ALWAYS reacted to with kid-gloves. Is there anyone out there doubting that these thugs would have killed these Jewish youngsters if they had the chance?
And here's the kicker: THEY WERE MERELY FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR "PROPHET." Attacking and killing Jews is "allah's will."
This great article contains the key to understanding it all.
How else could CAIR, which has a as a major supporter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, keep a straight face while criticizing Dennis Prager.
Sir Oinks a lot thinks August 22's writing rivals Hughs..
That which oinks is a pig.
There is no comparison between a moron like August 22 and a bright light like Hugh.
August 22 and Americans in Germany have only talking points (and a limited number available), there personal Jihad is against "liberals" and "leftists", and they jump on the anti Jihad bandwagon as opportunists to push their own moronic and divisive agenda..and thus do more to create allies for Islam, than any 1000 muslims could do with all of their lies, whines and obfuscations.
DP111,
OT--I checked out that site you listed above: the uppomeii one. I don't know if it is your blog or not, but have you seen the video where the veiled woman is being questioned about her job at the Christian school? It's so funny. Especially at the end, where the interviewer asks her if she was wearing the veil when she first applied for the job. What mumbling mess her answer is! Ha Ha! Nope, there WAS a man at the interview, and she didn't wear a veil then. Deceit so they can push their agenda further. Here's the site for that interview.
http://www.icjs-online.org/index.php?eid=2188&ICJS=5450&article=1136
If this is old news here, I apologize.
IF THIS OFFENDS YOU, GET OVER IT
If the Pope does anything Christian-like while inside the Hagia Sofia then that's a good enough reason for Muslims to feel offended and threatened, as if he is signaling his intention to reclaim the desecrated church back for Christian worship.
If a department store says "Merry Christmas" in their advertisements their executives fear that doing so might offend those in the US who are not Christians, and therefore they have chosen to continue to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", even while attempting to exploit the Christmas tradition of exchanging gifts to the full extent.
Williams and Mary college has recently removed a golden cross that was in their sanctuary for decades for fear that it would offend non-Christian students using the sanctuary for their own purposes.
The reality is that nobody in their RIGHT MIND would be offended by a store saying Merry Christmas in their ads. Only the ACLU types and Muslims would feign offense in order to silence Christian speech.
What does it really mean to be "offended"? Why should the people with the largest sticks up their @sses be able to muzzle Christian well wishing and righteous overtures of good will?
The West needs to stop worrying about offending the wicked and the deconstructionists. It's just a ploy used to silence and villify wholesome Christian speech in the mainstream.
On Dec 6, 1992, Hindu activists, liberated the birthplace of Ram by demolishing the evil mosque built at Ayodhya
Xtians need to do the same to liberate their churches
Nariz sez:
"August 22 and Americans in Germany have only talking points (and a limited number available), there personal Jihad is against "liberals" and "leftists", and they jump on the anti Jihad bandwagon as opportunists to push their own moronic and divisive agenda..and thus do more to create allies for Islam, than any 1000 muslims could do with all of their lies, whines and obfuscations."
Wow, talk about projecting one's own agenda upon others. How often do you come here and NOT talk about how "KKKonservatives" are the enemy because they won't see the Jihadists as our enemies ("only abortionists and liberals")?
Dude, you are a hypocrite of the highest order. One might even go so far to call you an "Islamist."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20879483-2702,00.html
Muslim boys urinated on Bible
Cameron Stewart
December 06, 2006
TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire.
The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected.
Anxious teachers at the school have also petitioned principal Shaheem Doutie, expressing "grave concern" about an "inculcation of hatred and radical attitudes towards non-Muslims" at the school, including towards non-Muslim teachers.
The Bible desecration took place last week at a school camp held near Bacchus Marsh, about 50km west of Melbourne, attended by 33 teenage Muslim boys ranging in age from Year7 to Year 10.
A school report of the incident, obtained by The Australian, says it happened late at night and involved three students and another two watching.
"The main perpetrator (a Year 7 student) urinated on the Holy Bible, tore some pages from the Holy Book and burnt them then finally spat on the Holy Book," the report says.
The second boy, from Year 9, "tore pages from the Holy Book and burnt them", while a third student, from Year 7, "tore pages from the Holy Bible and then he rolled it up like a cigarette and pretended to smoke it".
The boys come from a variety of ethnic Muslim backgrounds -- one is believed to be an Albanian/Malaysian, another Lebanese and another Indonesian.
Speaking of force, all Middle Eastern countries are ruled by dictators. This is not by choice, but this is become a requirement. Muslims only understand force so they need to be ruled by force. There's a saying in the Hindu language: "The ghosts who understand the language of the stick, do not understand the language of the tongue".
It should be now apparent to George Bush and any western leader trying to profess democracy in the Middle East that the best way to keep stability and peace out there is to let the dictators rule. In fact, all dictators have been pro West.
The Iraq war has ignited a radical bomb which is mushrooming like a nuclear cloud all over the world.
Shyamsunder wrote,
"TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire...
"...tore pages from the Holy Bible and then he rolled it up like a cigarette and pretended to smoke it".
Gee, I hope he did it in that order! *grin*
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Shyamsunder:
The story in the link you provided above is appalling, and worthy of wider attention. I'd suggest sending it to Robert to to try to get an independent thread dedicated to it.
This kind of hatred and mistreatment of non-Muslims and other groups disadvantaged by Islam is not uncommon wherever Muslims get their own separate institutions in the West. Where I live, the public schools run an Arabic language bilingual program in some schools where students receive the standard curriculum but in the Arabic language along with Arab language instruction and the treatment of female teachers is said to be appalling.
The mistreatment of the Bible and the intimidation of non-Muslim teachers isn't something these students just invented in their own imaginations. It has deep roots in their community and culture. The Australian authorities should end all public funding to this school, the principle's apology notwithstanding. Let them know that there will be a heavy price paid for disrespect toward the host culture.
More than that this is another case that demands they be told to assimilate their interpretation of Islam to western values or face criminalization or deportation.
The islamist view is derived from George Orwell,
All religions are equal but some religions are more equal than others.
("All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." George Orwell, "Animal Farm")
Western Society is now driven by shame and guilt.
Islamic society is driven by honour and pride.
In this war the war against islamism is assymetric and can never by won unless we also become a society driven by honour and pride.
we project our own love of tolerance ,conscience,tolerance.good faith onto them, because we believe that they are "human" and that these qualities are common to all human beings.
They project their acts of supremacism, domination, intimidations and violence onto us and therefore see even the slighest act of defence on out part as an attack on Islam.
If we do not defend ourselves they attribute this to our own cowardice and know they can proceed further.
They therefore believe we are like them and wish to destroy islam and dominate the world.
And when we do defend ourselves we lapse into guilt and shame and lose any resolve we ever had.
And when they attack us they gain more resolve to destroy or subdue us.
That is why the attempt by a Pope to worship in a Mosque is an act of aggression Against Islam but the attempt of a mullah to worship in the vatican would be seen by us as a rapprochement between the two faiths
Chevalier- you hit it square on the head- we're driven by shame and self-loathing and feel we must appologize to everyone for our multitudes of sins while the other side is free to piss on our bibles, make threats towarsd us, burn our flags, murder our citizens and murder Jews without reprisals or accountability. We should be so ashamed of ourselves when held in the light of Radical Islam! http://sacredscoop.com
I'm pretty sure that if Christian Boys Stoned Muslim Children , or Urinated on and Tore up a Qu'ran and pretended to Smoke it , we would be hearing and reading it in every Medium of Media. I'm also Pretty sure ( Based on their Track record ) That the Islamic World would be calling for Heads and would be ready to set the World on Fire for such a Flagrant Show of Hatred and INTOLERANCE . They would Cry Foul that we teach our children to Hate Islam so , But it was Muslims who perpetrated this Hate Crime and it will all Be ok and Quickly forgotten cause the Moderates will say it's an isolated incident.
Now is a perfect opportunity for the " PHANTOM Moderates " to speak up. what's CAIR have to say about this?
Likely not a Damn thing.
Mentat,
You said,
"Our elites are not going to stop the influx of Muslim immigration into Western countries because of their belief in cultural relativism and their faith that all people just want the same things, and that at heart we all share the same values."
A prescription for what can be done--what must be done--by us, the people (not the "elite") at:
http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/2006/11/whats-to-be-done-what-can-we-do-modest.html
more at
http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/
Edit :
I meant to say " What would CAIR hav to say about this if it happened in America for example."
I'd like to hear some Apologists try and defend this.
HayItsMe, there are only 1.5% Muslims in Australia. That is too low to start openly encouraging this type of behavior. It's still at the phony 'moderation' and 'tolerance' stage. "Disrespect for Christianity and Judaism? We're shocked, shocked I tell you!" Mustn't disturb the frogs as the heat is turned up slowly, slowly. Now, when they get to 30%, it'll be another story.
Shyamsunder said:
"Xtians need to do the same to liberate their churches"
You display little understanding of Christ and the Scriptures. The church is the body of Christ on earth--the elect. It isn't a building or place. The only place that comes to mind for which Jesus seemed to display some form of attachment was Jerusalem, and of that city he foretold its utter destruction.
Christ's desire is for the hearts of men, not real estate.
But realizing that might be beyond our collective will to accept. That would be accepting something that our parents and teachers told us was not true. They told us that all people are basically the same, and we are all morally equal, our race or creed or religion having no impact on that.
Posted by August22
I must have been absent when all the brainwashing was going on because neither my parents nor my teachers ever crammed moral relativism down my throat. Maybe the teachers tried (I do not remember them trying) and I wasn't paying attention. I have never believed that all people, cultures,and religions are equal, nor do my children. Moral relativism is a crucial element of the multicultural utopian fantasy but the social engineers who promote it don't believe it. They are quite confident that they are members of the master race who are creating the perfect world for the hapless peons. In fact, I believe that very few people anywhere really believe in the concept of moral/cultural/religious relativism. They only pretend they do by practicing self-censorship, or political correctness. The disease of liberalism is ruining the world, with plenty of help from islam and muslims.
I was an army brat who moved every three years, lived in Europe three different times, and all over the United States. IF anyone was a prime candidate for liberal indoctrination it was me, but it just did not happen. Regardless of what the Marxists teach in the public schools, parents can and should instill the values and morals they deem appropriate in their children. Parents are the bottom line, not the public school curricula, not left-wing teachers. I'm not sure exactly when today's insidious, multiculturalist dogma permeated our society, but it was after I finished college in the late seventies. My children escaped it and I know plenty of other people who did. When people have strong convictions, they do not fall prey to the purveyors of relativism and insipid homogeneity.
The only people who come close to being true moral relativists are white, self-hating liberals and even they don't entirely fit the bill because they consider all cultures/religions to be superior to their own. Their self-worth is derived from denigrating and condemining their own culture, country,race, and heritage in defense of hallowed minorities because they believe in nothing and see nothing but imaginary injustice, inequality, pain and suffering. All moral boundaries are evil; marriage, fidelity, the family, religion, truth, honor, courage, decency and even common courtesy must be eliminated to ensure that everyone is free of discrimination and bigotry. They consider themselves compassionate and morally superior to most people but they are just angry, lost souls searching for something bigger than themselves to believe in. They never find it.
That sort of an attitude will guarantee that Muslims will end up with all the real estate, and start carving out the hearts of Christians.
The Hindu example provided by Shyamsundar isn't different: dedication to Rama or Krishna is in the hearts of devotees, and whether a temple exists there or nor is partly irrelevant, particularly since the original structure was destroyed in the 1500's. But by destroying that symbol of Mohammedan triumphalism, and following it up with riots against Mohammedans who protested its destruction, Mohammedans were shown their place for a while.
Granted, this can't be pulled off in Islamic Turkey, but in the West, if people respond to all the Islamic belligerance by attacking mosques and making them targets, you are going to see Mohammedans soften up. Of course, given not just the law abiding, but also the PC nature of Western sheeple, it's not likely to happen.
As MarisolJW eloquently said, this is a non-sectarian site for ALL who are concerned about Islamic violence, and the dangers of the world's most intolerant religion.
Posted by: yohannbiimu
Yohann.. I could NOT agree MORE! This is a clearinghouse for ALL of us who see the danger of pigslam and WE must ALL stand united against this danger. We do npt have the luxury of infighting amongst ourselces any longer. That is what the left is so very destructively good at.. and that is precisely what has opened the floodgates to these vermin.
We need the ORKIN MAN!!
Granted, this can't be pulled off in Islamic Turkey, but in the West, if people respond to all the Islamic belligerance by attacking mosques and making them targets, you are going to see Mohammedans soften up. Of course, given not just the law abiding, but also the PC nature of Western sheeple, it's not likely to happen.
Posted by: Infidel Pride
And WHO maked the laws..? Is it our dhimmiticians who make the laws that keep us from defending ourselves. I agree the SIKH way IS THE WAY to go!!!!
There is so much we all could be doing to fight this cultural war with Islamofacism. Are we all calling the city managers? The Planning Department? It is at the local level where decisions are made on permits for mosques, for schools, and noise abatement. I have written four or five times to the City of Garden Grove, reminding them that the mosque across the street from their city hall is the same mosque that produced the infamous Adam Gadahan, possibly the #3 guy in al Qaeda. I ask them, "Why is this mosque still open?" A city can shut down such a place very easily... for parking lot requirements, fire code violations, variances can be denied, noise, traffic, adverse affect on the neighborhood, all these reasons and more.
Politics is local. My mamma used to tell me that, the former President of the Garden Grove Women's Civic Club. Yes! I tell them that too! GET ON THE PHONE! CALL! BE HEARD!
Germaninamerica - Given the history of the Ottoman Empire, it is an act of chutzpah for a Turk to attempt to mau-mau a modern German with the Third Reich. Thankfully, Germany was off the rails for less that two decades under Hitler, while the Ottomans had a rule of terror lasting centuries.
Posted by: MP
So then WHY are the Germans so brow-beaten??!! Maybe there should be some world-wide media campaign against these MO-FOES who keep doing these fascist activities all over the world now!
I am SICK and TIRED of my countrymen and the peoples of the Western World allowing ourselves to be put on the defensive by these Cockroaches we call the left! yes, nariz, if it weren;t for the LEFTISTS among us we would never have been sapped of our moral strength and our capacity for RESISTANCE!!!
We MUST defeat the LEFTist Fifth Column before we can defeat what is truly an inferior ideology and cult called islam.
SCREW pislam - LETS screw them harder than they've been screwing US!!! Let's think of ways to OBLITERATE their black rock for example!! Is there ANYONE among us who knows engineering techniques to construct a missile that could fly from say, Israel to mecca and lay WASTE to their idolatrous shrine?? If they can bomb our WTC and our trains and our subways.. Who is to say that some of our PRIVATE CITIZENS can't do some real damage when our governments REFUSE to FIGHT BACK??!!!!
Israel is the closest to Mecca geographically speaking so who's to say that a few smart Jewish kids wouldn't be able to put together a mechanism to destroy that crap rock right in the middle of their next hajj??!!
Desperate times demand desperate measures.
LET'S BRING IT ON!!!!
germaninamerica said
Are you trying to be ironic?
"Muslim boys urinated on Bible
Cameron Stewart
December 06, 2006
TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire.
The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected."
I wonder whether CAIR and others read such news info. If they do, why didnt they have a press release? How many mainstream media carried it?
How many mosques have been torched? How many moslems have been killed?
No sane person will ever kill any one. But a man(driver) was killed in Nigeria because he was accused of throttling his vehicle and using his exhaust to blow pieces of koran away, thereby desecrating it.
Churches were torched because some people published a cartoon. The whole world was in turmoil. Islam is a menace.
"Muslim boys urinated on Bible
Cameron Stewart
December 06, 2006
TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire.
The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected."
I wonder whether CAIR and others read such news info. If they do, why didnt they have a press release? How many mainstream media carried it?
How many mosques have been torched? How many moslems have been killed?
No sane person will ever kill any one. But a man(driver) was killed in Nigeria because he was accused of throttling his vehicle and using his exhaust to blow pieces of koran away, thereby desecrating it.
Churches were torched because some people published a cartoon. The whole world was in turmoil. Islam is a menace.
nd what about this?
Happened in Belgium
Belgium: Muslims Stone Jewish Children
A story I found in Expatica News caught my attention. It described how Jewish children, who were visiting Beringen, in Limburg province, Belgium, were set upon by "local residents of foreign origins." I tried to think which people "of foreign origins" would want to attack a group of Jewish schoolchildren.
Being of a suspicious mind, I Googled, and eventually found more information, care of Islam in Europe, backed up by reports in Dutch from HLN.be and Eyes and in English from JTA News. Their attackers were, unsurprisingly, Muslim youths of Turkish origin. What is bizarre is why Expatica bothered to report the ethnicity of the victims, but not their assailants.
About 60 Jewish children had gone to stay at a youth hostel on an excursion on Thursday, November 30. They had come to visit the Beringen mines, which include the Vlaams mijnmuseum, a mine which had closed in 1992 but has been preserved, with a museum. Other former coal mines, such as the Charbonnages de Beringen (pictured) which closed in 1989 lie deserted in the area, as historical sites of interest.
The Jewish children had come from Antwerp, and were aged from 12 to 15 years, expecting a stay which would be an educational holiday. The children were Hasidic, and wore their traditional black attire and hats, with long sideburns. As soon as they reached the youth hostel where they were to stay, they came under attack from a group of Turkish Muslims, who pelted them with stones. Once the children had gone into the hostel, the Muslims continued to throw stones and concrete blocks, smashing windows of the building. The Muslims were shouting anti-semitic abuse. The children had to shelter from the missiles and flying glass in an inner corridor of the hostel.
The leaders of the school group called the police, but even after the arrival of police, the youths continued to throw stones and shout insults for about an hour. Once the aggression had subsided, the Muslims continued to stay in the vicinity of the hostel. As a result, police decided that they could not guarantee the schoolboys' safety, and escorted them to the highway for them to return to Antwerp.
Four adults and six youths under the age of 18 were arrested, and at the weekend they were brought before a district court. All were sentenced to 30 hours' of community service, and were ordered to pay compensation to the youth hostel. The commune (district authority) issued an apology to the schoolchildren. It may press charges once all information on the case is clarified.
Already, charges have been filed by centre against racism and for equal chances. Claude Marinower, a Jewish member of parliament, said he will "raise the issue with the ministers of justice and the interior."
Forum, an Antwerp-based Jewish group demanded "drastic measures to guarantee the safety of all youth throughout Belgium. A failure to do so would endanger our democracy."
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003446.html
An
Muslim YouTube Club Targets Anti-Terrorist Videos and Users
Muslims have set up a group called Oul-Al-Albab/Oul-Al-Absar at YouTube that targets videos and users critical of Islamist violence. YouTube's poorly thought out flagging procedures encourage dishonest users to lie about content in order to suppress videos with which they disagree. YouTube has refused to change the system, despite numerous complaints from users that certain groups, particularly those sympathetic to Islamic terrorism, are abusing it (screen captures).
The group members share information about YouTube users who create anti-Islamist terrorist videos and instruct members to flag the videos and users as "inappropriate," often getting the videos and/or users banned.
Here, a user instructs a fellow Muslim about how to game the YouTube system to censor anti-terrorist videos:
jafour3 (1 week ago)
You can give them only 1 star and click on "Flag unappropriate" and choose "Hate Speech".. You can find it under each video you watch.
"jafour3" lists his home as Palestine. While the group includes 251 members from all over the world, most seem to live in Canada and the United States.
Thanks to YouTube user InfidelAndProud for tipping me to this group. InfidelAndProud credits fellow YouTuber infidel4life with discovering the group.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/185584.php
Why wait for the Turks to return Hagia Sophia?
Here in NYC there is something called Ground Zero, you might have heard of it. They are supposedly going to put up a tower as high as the WTC. At the same time Bush continues his visa waiver program to continue bringing Saudi terrorists here. He is also conniving with Kennedy-McCain-Pelosi to create a "guest worker" program which will end up bringing in an additional influx of Muslims. These guys will eventually find a way to bring the new tower down - so why bother?
Instead, why not turn over part of that area to Orthodox Christians. I understand that they need a new church to replace a nearby one that was damaged. We should build an exact replica of Hagia Sophia as a way of sticking it to the Muslims. I wonder how they would react to that.
RBLA
from your mouth to God's ear! That's a fantastic idea. I never heard of that before. I will email the patriarch and the local archbishop here on that. I love that idea. Of course Christendom should get the original back but in the meantime why not build a replica AND across the street have a Armenian Chrisitan musuem reminding the world that millions of christians (and other nonmuslims) were mass killed by muslims. The turks would have not killed these innocents if they were muslims so its a direct jihad islam-spreading reason they did it. Turkey is 99% of course.
THE ALLIES SHALL WIN,
Good idea.
We can expand your museum to include exhibits on all of the infidels victimized by Muslims over the centuries. We can remember all of those" who are actually descendants of Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians etc. who have forgotten their roots and become Muslim Turks. Similarly with the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Syria etc who now think of themselves only as Arabs and have been taught contempt for the high civilizations their ancestors built. We can have special exhibits memorializing the millions of Hindus and Buddhists murdered without even being allowed to sign on the the Muslim "protection" racket, since they were idolaters. There can also be an exhibit memorializing all of the Black Africans who died in the slave caravans as well as the survivors whose fate was to be castrated.
There are, to be sure, many additional examples right up to modern times.
the fanatic quoted
"We have the great Hagia Sophia that the Pope could not pray in without offending Muslim's, yet the Pope prayed over Ataturk's grave.
How twisted can this world become? I guess on his next trip to Germany we should expect a prayer over Hitler's tomb as well. This event drove me crazy, as a Greek I'm appalled that the Pope would make such a gesture to the man responsible for the atrocities committed against Greek and Armenian Christians. I guess that is relevant to this article about the double standard that exists in the world today".
the fanatic i totally agree with that it pissed me of to as a greek i have mentioned it on this site to but no one said anything. thats why i have lost all respect for the pope and people on this forum who try to make ataturk sound like a hero all becasue he was secular well wherever he was secular or not what about the christians he killed what about the millions of christians that died?
also in rome they are building a statue of attaturk. if i was to say on this forum how hitler was secular and he made germany secular i would probably be banned of this site. abvously greeks dying and suffering means nothing to people well anyone who admires ataturk is anti Greek and anti Christian and they no better then muslims
My goodness, Norseman, you scared me! I live in Chicago and we also have streets with those two names!
I have always felt it unfortunate that, after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Constantinople was not taken back to the West it was once part of as a reconquest and made part of Greece. At least the great Hagia Sofia should have reverted to Christianity, but alas the Allies were not thinking in terms of religion (as muslims always do) or of a future defensive strategy wrt to Islam.
SpongeMom
Up Pompei is not my site but run by a UK blogger known as gandalf.
Yes I have seen that interview. Quite frankly, I cants ee how we are being enriched by Islam.
Greek Gurl quotes Fanatic:
"We have the great Hagia Sophia that the Pope could not pray in without offending Muslim's, yet the Pope prayed over Ataturk's grave.
How twisted can this world become? I guess on his next trip to Germany we should expect a prayer over Hitler's tomb as well"
and adds in her own words:
"i totally agree with that it pissed me of
as a greek i have mentioned it on this site to but no one said anything. thats why i have lost all respect for the pope"
Greek gurl, I noticed your complaint but did not want to respond for a couple of reasons:
1. I have already spent an enormous amount of time and energy defending the Pope in this forum, perhaps too much. I have noticed that no one bothered to respond to my remarks either and have wondered if it's because everyone is fed up of hearing from me about it and have written me off as simply doing my predictable schtick - a one trick pony, determined to flog a dead horse. Either way, I have my reasons for asking people not to be too dismissive of the Pope, which I'm convinced are practical and valid, so I'm not going to worry about it, overly. Those who have ears to hear it will, those who disagree are free to do so.
2. As some other posters in this forum have noted in other threads there ARE some weak spots in Benedict's actions, so you make a point that is at least partly valid. While I dismiss the casual and simplistic complaints of that the Pope has gone dhimmi based on predictable cliches such as "He prayed in a mosque! What a sell-out!", questionable information such as "He supports Turkey's entry into the EU!" and outright falsehoods like "He kissed the Koran!" - nearly all of which are inspired by sheer bigotry, spite and cynicism - I recognize that there are some legitimate criticisms that can be made of certain features of the the Pope's Turkish visit, such as the one you mention. You made your point well, and did not seem to need help from me. I hope this reassures you that you are not being ignored.
I will say this much though. Your hatred for Ataturk is understandable - I'm sure none of us like the man. However, I do think you may be reading too much into the Pope's visit to his tomb. Consider that if the Pope visited the United States or Canada, he might very well spend some time at the resting places of the founding fathers of those countries or some of the monuments of their history. Would it be accurate, do you think, to suppose that that would mean he approved of evils such as slavery, segregation or the genocidal marginalization of the Native peoples of North America, or being indifferent or insensitive to the victims of these atrocities? Clearly not! That said, if he or any of his successors ever visit that country again, hopefully they will insist on avoiding a reprise of that scene. A future papal visit ought to be made only when the Pope is in a position of clear strength in which he can get down to the practical business at hand, and avoid diplomatic and political platitudes.
You have the typical Greek resentment of the Papacy and the West - understandable in light of events such as the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the West's refusal to help Byzantium in Paleologos' time and other historical grievances against the Latins, but I do think you should try to be more balanced and objective about current matters. This is an entirely different era and East/West relations today are shaped by different realities and different personalities. Different time, different circumstances, different people ... even different cultures in many ways. So let's move on and avoid getting hung up on the past, which will only distract us from dealing with present concerns.
templar quoted
I will say this much though. Your hatred for Ataturk is understandable - I'm sure none of us like the man. However, I do think you may be reading too much into the Pope's visit to his tomb.
so if the pope visited hitlers tomb and jews where angry would the jews be reading to much into this ?
templar said
"I will say this much though. Your hatred for Ataturk is understandable - I'm sure none of us like the man. However, I do think you may be reading too much into the Pope's visit to his tomb. Consider that if the Pope visited the United States or Canada, he might very well spend some time at the resting places of the founding fathers of those countries or some of the monuments of their history. Would it be accurate, do you think, to suppose that that would mean he approved of evils such as slavery, segregation or the genocidal marginalization of the Native peoples of North America, or being indifferent or insensitive to the victims of these atrocities?"
Templar i guess what your trying to say is that what ataturk did to christians in asia minor was just like what the founders of America did to blacks and indians am i right? and that the pope praying to ataturks grave would be no better then the pope praying to the tomb of the founders of america and canada well the difference is both acts where evils the armenian and greek genocide was evil done by ataturk and the slaughter of natives indians and blacks was evil to done by the founders of america and i think that yes that would be insensitive to the indians and blacks. after all one evil does not justify a other evil.
templar
You have the typical Greek resentment of the Papacy and the West - understandable in light of events such as the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the West's refusal to help Byzantium in Paleologos' time and other historical grievances against the Latins, but I do think you should try to be more balanced and objective about current matters.
i dont resent the papacy i am just disapointed in the papacy. I feel they have let orthodox christians down again why is it that the west makes out they want to help then the next minute they dont want to help for example like first the pope says turkey shouldnt join eu and he seems so sympathetic to Orthodox christians then the next minute his in turkey saying he backs turkey to join the eu and he prays over ataturks grave i wouldnt say i am resentful but confused.
Greek gurl:
A visit to the tombs of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. or to Canada's Fathers of Confederation could easily be seen as insensitive on the part of native people or to black people, as you say you would regard it but this is one of the problems with statecraft - someone's toes are always stepped on by just about anything that one does in that realm, since just about every nation has its record of sins and other "skeletons in the closet". I wonder if it would have been possible for the visit to go ahead, or if it could have made things worse rather than better, if the Pope had refused to participate in the ceremony at Ataturk's tomb.Perhaps someone more enlightened about the workings of diplomacy can enlighten me on this one. As long as the Pope is a head of state, as well as a religious leader, a status that I'd say serves the Catholic Church and Christianity as a whole well, I'm not sure how to resolve these types of conflicts. If it had been impossible for the Pope to forego a visit to Ataturk's tomb, would it have been better, in your opinion, for the Pope not to visit Turkey at all? I think one of the keys to evaluating the success and rectitude of the Turkish visit is how it is seen by the local Christian communities. What are the impressions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Armenian Patriarchate? That I know of so far, they have been positive.
One thing that I hope may be helpful is this: prayer, as you know so well, can be undertaken in a number of ways. Praying AT the tomb of someone can be a means of imploring forgiveness for someone's sins ("praying FOR ...") - something you know that Christian faith calls us to do ("Love your enemies"). As far as I know, the Pope's prayer on that occassion was silent, but we have to presume that he would have expressed silently the proper Christian response to the person of Ataturk, neither presuming to pronounce on him a definitive judgement we are not permitted to make, nor overlooking his crimes and his need for reconciliation with God. This does not imply approval or admiration for the person buried there as would the invocation of the prayers of one believed to be a saint ("praying TO ... "). As far as I know, the Pope's prayer on that occassion was silent, but we have to presume that he would have expressed silently the proper Christian response to the person of Ataturk, neither presuming to pronounce on him a definitive judgement we are not permitted to make, nor overlooking his crimes and his obvious need for the grace of repentance and final reconciliation with God.
Now comes the really hard part of this. I don't agree with the comparison to Hitler, who of course had no tomb because he committed suicide - an act of impenitence as final and definitive as anything we can imagine in this life. The Armenian genocide was gravely and appallingly evil, but it was also related to military conflict between Turkish authorities and Armenian freedom fighters. I, of course, sympathize with the Armenian cause by definition, because of the nature of Islamic rule and in no manner overlook the criminality of the slaughter of the millions of innocents that died at the hands of Turkish soldiers who should have spared non-combatants, but we might very well have seen a similar slaughter of Muslim at the hands of Christian Serbs in the late 90s which was, had NATO not intervened. It is an undeniable fact of life that soldiers sometimes cross lines that they should not in war as indefensible as this is. The slaughter of Jews by Hitler's forces can not even claim that kind of meagre defence. It was prompted by sheer diabolical spite, not conflict over lands and borders.
P.S. Sorry for the mistakes and repetitions in my last comment, Greek Gurl. Getting a bit careless I guess because I'm in a hurry since I have to dash out to a meeting. Hope the response was helpful though. Interested in your further thoughts on the matter. Gotta run. Take care.
"I feel they have let orthodox christians down again why is it that the west makes out they want to help then the next minute they dont want to help for example like first the pope says turkey shouldnt join eu and he seems so sympathetic to Orthodox christians then the next minute his in turkey saying he backs turkey to join the eu and he prays over ataturks grave i wouldnt say i am resentful but confused.
Posted by Greek Gurl
Well, I don't blame you for feeling confused. I feel a bit that way as well, but I still trust in this Pope. He is a very intelligent and capable man and his principles are as close to unshakable as anything gets in this world, so hopefully I have not misplaced my trust. My fondest hope is that Benedict's pontificate will indicate that the page has finally been turned on the West's duplicity toward the Christian East. Word has it that the Pope will now receive Archbishop Christodoulos at the Vatican and I hope His Blessedness will invite the Pope to come and see him in Athens. This would afford an even better opportunity than Turkey for the Pope of Rome to demonstrate his love for the Eastern Churches.
P.S. (again): You say "he backs turkey to join the eu" but this information comes from the Turkish media, an unreliable source, and is not supported by the Holy See's statement on the Pope's conversation with the Turkish Prime Minister.
http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/
And again, you seem to be reading into the fact that he prayed over Ataturk's grave the idea that he approves of Ataturk or disregards what Ataturk did to the Greeks and Armenians. I just do not think one should read Benedict's acts this way. Why WOULD he side with Muslims against Christians? It makes no sense. We have to attribute these actions to the role of diplomatic protocol and the conduct of state to state and church/state political relations, assuming (especially since his prayers were silent and therefore not open to scrutiny by the press) that they are meant to uphold, at least in the longer run, the interest of the Christians in Turkey. And I know of nothing he has said that indicates he meant anything contrary to this. Certainly he is not like Innocent III who, upon hearing of the ransacking of Constantinople by the Franks and Venetians, "piously" crossed himself and shuddered at the fate of those who resist the authority of the "vicar of Christ". We should assume that Benedict's silent prayer asked God for things like help for Ataturk to find salvation through the gift of repentance for his sins, including his mistreatment of his Christian subjects, and that the ethic of secularism that Ataturk strived for in modern Turkey help lead to true freedom of conscience and religious liberty for the Christians an other minorities of Turkey.
In short, Greek Gurl, you should not assume that Benedict's prayer at Ataturk's tomb meant anything like approval of Ataturk's rule or its current legacy, and if the secular press does, people like you and I should correct them about this.
i guess the pope as a christian has to be forgiving and maybe he could have been praying for forgivness over ataturks grave as christianity teaches to forgive your enemys. but i still dont get why pope says he backs turkeys bid to join the EU.
" i still dont get why pope says he backs turkeys bid to join the EU"
The Holy See's statement does move away from Pope Benedict's previous formula which was a blunt rejection of EU membership for Turkey, but instead of endorsing Turkey's admission in clear, unambiguouls language, it speaks of "integration" and makes this conditional on "common values". There is some softening here of the previous position, but it seems to me to be a diplomatic strategy. It will have to be clarified, but when it is, if what we're left with really is an endorsement of admission to the EU in spite of everything rotten about Turkey, this would be a political and moral disaster for the Church and for Europe.
Templar, you had a good commentary going with good examples until you said two things.
The first was not comparing Ataturk to Hitler, that is where I find I always disagree with the Jewish perception of genocide. Secondly you blame Christian Serbs for murders against Muslims.
Here's where I get called an anti-Semite. There is absolutely no difference between Hitler and Ataturk, both are war criminals and committed heinous acts against humanity. Jews especially do not like to think that anyone other than they suffered this fate, the sad truth is that's false. Hitler used Ataturk's genocide as a blue print for the Holocaust or Shoah whichever you prefer. To say that Ataturk killed Armenians in that genocide in defense is absolutely untrue and insulting. I'm sure the Nazi's felt they killed the Jews in self defense as they were going to take over all of their institutions or some other bullshit excuse.
Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing any way you slice it. The Indian subcontinent was ethnically cleansed of 80,000,000 people over 500 years as a result of Islamic ethnic cleansing.
For the matter of the Serbs, there is a pile of evidence that the atrocities that were supposedly committed by Serbs never happened. As a result there is more and more evidence that the Serbs were the ones that were and still are being ethnically cleansed. What I find annoying about the conflicts in the Balkans is that the age old alliances and whipping boys have stayed the same.
The Croat-ion's played a huge role in that region and sided with the Muslim's to further their own cause. No one ever seems to mention this, and at the time of these most recent conflicts the Clinton regime was pro Muslim and had the luxury of supporting western Catholic Croat's while supporting Muslims against the Orthodox Serbs.
I have a good friend who was involved in the Medac Pocket incident where Canadian troops came under fire by Croation regulars after ethnically cleansing the nearby village of Serbian civillians. This engagement was covered up by the Canadian government for over ten years, and still the entire truth of that incident has never been made public by this country. I have another friend who is now a retired Intelligence officer, he was in Kosovo during the whole NATO attack, and he returned mad as hell at what he saw NATO do to the wrong side.
This is nothing new, what no one talks about is the Axis alliances that were re-born in the Balkans. The Germans armed the Croats, and the old Ustache and Skenderbeg alliance from Camp Josanovic was reborn. The Serbs once again took the brunt and the world watched and guys like you still blame the Serbs.
Statistics in WWII show that the Russians suffered the most casualties by a large margin, the Serbs who were Western allies suffered the most losses by percentage of population followed by the Greeks in the same category. So I can say that even though the Russians were secular communists, they mostly were Orthodox Christians and therefore as usual nothing ever changes the Orthodox Christians once again are left to bear the brunt.
Consider this next time you say that a Western Pope praying over Ataturks grave is not a big deal.
Niv
Posted by at December 7, 2006 04:13 PM
Niv/Fanatic:
I also am, and more important, was at the time of NATO's action, pro-Serb for precisely the kind of reasons you cite in their defence. I spoke out against NATO's action against them back in '98, '99 or whenever that was to whomever would listen but was either ignored or contradicted loud and clear for it. I would not have wanted to see a slaughter of Muslims but I knew enough of the history of the region to know that the West should stay out of the mess, at least in terms of military intervention, and try other means of preventing the bloodbath that they feared. (I have to add though that at times the Serbs acted very badly, as did all of the players, even though I would have preferred the West take their side more, the Croats and the Muslims less - the Muslims least of all. I was absolutely incensed with them when they chained one of our soldiers to a metal pole as a "human shield", a tactic only one or two moral notches above Hezbollah's use of civilians).
I didn't say that Ataturk acted in defence, only that there was armed conflict between Turks and Armenians. That necesarily casts a different hue over the affair, making it slightly grayer, rather than the stark black and white issue of the holocaust. The fact that the Jews were not in a state of armed insurrection against Hitler's Germany makes it even clearer to world opinion that there could be no excuse for anyone on the ground at the time thinking the actions taken against them could be justified. Still, the Armenian genocide too was a monstrous war crime and a crime against humanity. I find the Turkish side in all of this completely indefensible, and it's ongoing refusal to apologize and make amends is one of the grounds on which I'd say Turkey should be refused admission to the EU. I would never blame the victims of such repression for taking up arms when a sensible opportunity such as WWI arose. Clearly the Turks had it coming, but unfortunately the "fog of war" often provides cover not only for the murderous actions of soldiers, but for subsequent rationalizations and misguided opinions on the part of both the general public and of historians.
My main point is only that anti-Jihadist westerners should not be as reflexively quick as many seem to be to follow the Turkish and Muslim press in accepting the "dhimmi Pope" line as the definitive interpretation of words and actions that are innately vague, and in consequently writing off the closest thing they currently have to a leader around whom anti-Jihadists can rally. Benedict clearly had both political and religious reasons impelling his choice of actions. I don't like the optics of some of this either, and I hope the Pope and the Holy See soon clarify things in a more favorable way. I'm giving Benedict the benefit of the doubt for now, but not without reservations. He and his aids are going to have to clarify what kind of relationship they do foresee between Europe and Turkey short of outright EU membership, and he should clarify, in his public addresses, the exact significance of his actions at Ataturk's grave. I would also think that they should reconsider some of the protocols of these types of foreign travels in light of the concerns people have raised over them. It might be best to drop such grandiose diplomatic gestures if they can be. Either way, if they don't demonstrate attentiveness and sensitivity over these things, they will eventually lose my support as well.
Templar, thank you for your response.
I will say that I agree with what you have said wholeheartedly, I should be a little more reserved in my condemnation of the Pope until further is heard directly from his mouth.
I do hope he sheds light on his visit to Ataturk's grave, as that really is a hard pill to swallow, even in light of the political necessity that brought it forward.
On the issue of the Holocaust against the Armenian genocide, I understand exactly what you are saying and agree in principle. But I personally have difficulty in accepting that there is any difference in murder because of circumstances around it. To me it all still boils down to ethnic cleansing, and they shouldn't be treated any different.
Niv
Templar,
by the way, I would like to commend you on your writing style. I like exchanging ideas with people like yourself that are intelligent and can explain their thoughts well.
Take care,
Niv
Niv:
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad we understand one another better now, and I also find your writing very perceptive and eloquent as well. You obviously have a great command of the relevant facts of history about all of this, and I enjoy the challenge that posters like you provide. I've learned a lot since I first came to this forum, even though at times it can feel "challenging". It's hard not to offend someone when it comes to such a complex issue as the one we're discussing in connection with these Turkish matters, and in fact I worried after one of my notes to Greek Gurl that I might have come across a little too arrogantly or been too hard on her, so I appreciate your patience and understanding. I guess one has to have a thick skin at times to write here. Ah well ... makes life more interesting, I suppose.
As I think I made clear earlier, I do think the Ataturk grave incident, no matter how legitimate the religious sentiments and/or political objectives Benedict had in mind, was unfortunate and I'd say it even suggests (LOL) that Benedict might need to take to heart some of the advice he's said to have given John Paul - "stop kissing everything!" (the habit that reportedly led to the notorious Koran incident) by refraining from "visiting everything" before its too late and while his pontificate is still young. One thing I might have added though, that I overlooked earlier, is that not only should the Vatican consider vetting its political gestures more carefully if it can, but I'd even go so far as to say that it's worth questioning this recent tradition of Papal travelling entirely. There was a time when the Popes remained in Rome and confined themselves to conducting their church/state and state to state relations by way of the local Catholic hierarchies and their corps of Apostolic nuncios and delegates.
The travels outside Rome inaugurated by Paul VI, and expanded so dramatically by John Paul II, only reinforce the high degree of centralization in the Catholic Church that the Orthodox and Protestants object to and find such an obstacle in their relations with Rome. It may be much more harmonious with the spirit of collegiality and the more "eucharistic" ecclesiology that the Church has to adopt to advance the cause of restoring a more complete communion with these Churches, if Benedict eased off on foreign travels, and took some other measures that allowed the local churches to emerge from their present obscurity. If he really wants to reinforce this local witness he can do it in a variety of other ways, some of which entail empowering the diocesan churches to act more effectively and confidently on their own. This is something that as a Catholic with a background in theological studies, I think we are sadly missing in our tradition. And if it's a matter of raising the profile of a local church that's under pressure, such as Turkey's, he might be able to do this by, among other things, raising some of the Turkish bishops to the college of Cardinals, as he did in the case of Archbishop Zen of Hong Kong in order to bolster the Church in China.