The Special Cases: The Ahmadiyya

"Hello from writer Wolfgang Bruno. I will do a series of essays about the 'special cases,' groups at the fringes of or outside of the Islamic mainstream, such as the Ismailis, the Sufis and the Baha'i Faith, to see whether or not any of them can represent a viable alternative as a reformed and more peaceful Islam. I will start today with a short essay about the Ahmadiyya community."

There are movements within Islam, or groups of people who at least identify themselves as Muslims, that are indeed somewhat more tolerant and less violent that mainstream Muslims. One such movement is the Ahmadiyya community.

The Ahmadiyya movement was founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1889. He taught that jihad "by the sword" had been replaced by jihad "of the pen," and wanted to synthesize all religions under the banner of Islam. He claimed to be the "Reformer of the age" but did not bring any new revelation. After a schism in 1914, his followers split into two groups: The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, with its center in Lahore in what is today Pakistan. The main body, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (sometimes called the Qadiani after the village where the founder was born) claimed that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet, although he didn't bring any new laws. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, on the other hand, presented themselves as an Islamic reform movement and maintained the normal Muslim view that Muhammad was "the seal of the prophets" and that there would be no new prophet after him. Both branches, however, agree that Ghulam Ahmad was the Mahdi and the Messiah. They also believe that the Koran contains no abrogations.

Ahmadis still follow traditional Muslim rituals such as prayer and fasting, but among mainstream Muslims there is deep suspicion towards them, chiefly because the main body of Ahmadiyyas have affirmed that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet, a claim that is considered heretical by most Muslims. The largest concentration of Ahmadiyyas is found in the Indian subcontinent, in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both groups are viewed as heretical by Saudi authorities, and are thus not allowed to go on pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina.

At alislam.org, their official website, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community says about themselves:

"The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam is a religious organization, international in its scope, with branches in over 178 countries in Africa, North America, South America, Asia, Australasia, and Europe. At present, its total membership exceeds 200 million worldwide [note: it is impossible to verify this number, which is almost certainly inflated], and the numbers are increasing day by day. This is the most dynamic denomination of Islam in modern history. The Ahmadiyya Movement was established in 1889 by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) in a small and remote village, Qadian, in the Punjab, India. He claimed to be the expected reformer of the latter days, the Awaited One of the world community of religions (The Mahdi and Messiah). It [the movement] advocates peace, tolerance, love and understanding among followers of different faiths. It firmly believes in and acts upon the Qur'anic teaching: "There is no compulsion in religion." (2:257) It strongly rejects violence and terrorism [emphasis in the original] in any form and for any reason. After the demise of its founder, the Ahmadiyya Movement has been headed by his elected successors - Khalifas."

Precisely because they champion an unorthodox and somewhat more peaceful version of Islam, Ahmadis are frequently persecuted by traditional Muslims in both Pakistan and Bangladesh. Under Pakistan's strict blasphemy laws the Ahmadiyya are not allowed to preach, nor even to call themselves Muslims.

Under the Bangladesh National Party (BNP) -led government, discrimination and violence against the Ahmadis has intensified. "It's a dangerous moment in Bangladesh when the government becomes complicit in religious violence," said Brad Adams, executive director of Human Rights Watch's Asia Division. "The authorities have emboldened extremists by failing to prosecute those engaged in anti-Ahmadi violence and by banning Ahmadiyya publications."

In October 2004 Muslim fanatics razed an Ahmadiyya mosque. The mob vandalized and robbed Ahmadiyya houses, injuring at least 11. One of the injured, Shabju Mia, 52, imam of the mosque, ended up in hospital. Witnesses said local BNP leader led the raiders.

In July 2006, the Bangladeshi newspaper the Daily Star carried a story on Ahmadis who had been victimized, but the article was later removed, probably following pressures from powerful anti-Ahmadiyya forces. The police had accused four Ahmadis of preaching publicly in a village in the Punjab. The villagers protested against "unabated preaching" of the Ahmadiyya faith in their village, and urged the police to ensure the arrest of those accused. The minority sect condemned law enforcers for being reluctant to act in two assault incidents on Ahmadis that same summer. The movement believed this encouraged the bigots to be more aggressive. The Ahmadiyyas had become confined to their houses and refrained from going to work after fanatics threatened to attack them.

The irony is that although Ahmadis are hardly even considered Muslims by other Muslims, the first and so far only Muslim to be awarded a Nobel Prize for science was an Ahmadi. According to Hugh Fitzgerald:

"Among the nearly 1000 recipients of Nobel Prizes in science (Physics, Chemistry, Medicine), only one appears to have gone to a 'Muslim' - Abdus Salam. Trained partly at the Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge, and dying in Oxford (to which he had retired), Abdus Salam shared the prize with Sheldon Glashow and Steven Weinberg. One presumes that Abdus Salam deserved his 1/3 of the 1979 prize. But his entire career depended upon access to Western education. And while he wrote on the 'Wisdom of Islam' (just the kind of thing to win a Templeton Prize) he was both claimed, in Pakistan, as a 'Muslim' and yet belonged, as an Ahmadiyya, to a sect regarded by many Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and elsewhere as not a real Muslim at all. It was a case of claiming not him, but rather his Nobel, for Islam, and then not discussing if just possibly, the reason he was the only Muslim Nobel-winner in science might have something to do with, precisely, the relatively greater mental freedom that Adhamiddya Islam may offer its adherents, compared to that available to those in orthodox Islam."

The Ahmadis do in some ways represent an interesting case of a "reformed" Islam, but it is in my view unlikely whether their version of Islam could ever form a viable alternative to the majority of the world's Muslims. They are simply too far removed from Islamic orthodoxy, especially the largest branch which considers their founder a prophet.

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53 Comments

Still Fed Up and AIG-

Stand by. You know who will undoubtedly show up on this one.

Nice expose. I'm really looking forward to getting more information on the different sects. Thank you.

It appears that mainstream Islam wants a copyright on the term "religion of peace". Even if it means killing every last infidel or "apostate" to make that happen.

like others in the region, they are only Muslim because they were forced to convert by the sword. their beliefs originate in buddhism (India). unfortunately they are out-numbered. and this doesn't mean that Islam isn't dangerous.

Yes, those muslims, who identify themselves as tolerant and non-violent, like our Ahmadiyya friend, Naseem, who just cannot seem to contain herself while rejoicing at every perceived infidel defeat. Her two-faced sentiments are telling.

Posted by: americaningermany at December 15, 2006 11:45 AM

Ah, she just can't help it. I just wonder which one of her shows up today-feisty version or sad version. You and Still Fed Up always give that poster(s) the most hell. I look forward to an enlightening little exchange today!

The Ahmadiys may be persecuted, and in Pakistan must officially register as non-Muslims, but they are not quite so peaceful and wonderful as one thinks. Look, for example, at the worldview of the Ahmadiya poster Naseem, who hopes that somehow her own problems with the real full-fledged Islam may be solved, solved by Islam itself somehow being transformed -- exactly how she does not say -- by an influx of intelligent and civilized non-Muslims, who will for some unaccountable reason be attracted by Islam (Naseem cannot conceive of another faith, and certainly not of unbelief, as perfectly acceptable), and enter as "wuslims" (her favored word) or "Western Muslims" who will then make Islam, at long last, the humane and wonderful thing it was always meant, but somehow never managed, to be.

The Ismailis, who weigh their leader the Aga Khan and then give him his weight in diamonds (I still remember the old newsreels) on the other hand, are a slightly different matter. Ibn Warraq thinks that they may be what Westerners think the Ahmadiyas are. However, how many Ismailis are there? How much does its perceived moderation come from the clash of elements within it with the real full-fledged Islam?

The Ahmadiyyas are indeed persecuted in Bangladesh. Fundamentalist groups there are trying to get the government to officially declare them non-Muslim. Personally, I wish they were all Sufis...

Islamists are rolling on the floor laughing at the thought that infidels call islam "The Religion of Peace".

They know that it is NOT! They laugh at our stupidity.

Posted by: americaningermany at December 15, 2006 11:50 AM

I have to laugh myself. Infidel stupidity IS boundless. I wonder if one of these peaceful ones has actually applied for a copyright? It would be a great new way to finance jihad and buy more politicians.

Just wanted to make a small correction. In your essay you state, "the first and so far only Muslim to be awarded a Nobel Prize for science was an Ahmadi." He is indeed the first, but he's not the only Muslim to attain this honor--Ahmed Zewail won the Nobel Prize in, I believe, 1998.

Givern the3 crap the Naseem spouts on these boards, I'm beginning to wonder if it really is an Ahmadi. My guess is that it is a Shia or Sunni whose goat has eloped.

I think Muslims should adopt a "Catholic" view of the Koran: inspired by God but written by a man. Protestants with this "Bible-based" as opposed to "Church-based" faith, along with the obnoxious idea that it's the literal and inerrant word of God, remind me too much of the Muslims. It therefore seems to me that if both parties were to switch over to the more rational Catholic/Orthodox view they'd be stirring up a lot less trouble. I'm also not surprised to see Muslim fundamentalists using American creationist textbooks in Turkey to beat off the modern world.

For myself, I find the latest results of Biblical criticism and research into evolution exhilerating. They've really opened up my appreciation for Christianity. I'd hate to see those two groups miss out on all the fun.

Assalamau Laikum all,

Hugh, May Allah SWT look upon you with favour. To propogate the cause of Ahmadi...by showing them off on your website is very encouraging ...Shukria...you will be in my prayers tonite- even though it is forbidden to pray for a kafur...but at least you are well versed in Islam.

Look you all know how I set out my Ahmadi stall. It has got sheen and shine now, Here it is in simple Simon steps.

1) The Islam propogated by Sunni/Shia has violent aspects of it which are hard to adhere to..and frankly there is no need for it.

2) However, as a result of the birthright of the muslim, Allahs NEWS (flat earth policy), it is Almighty Allah's will that the muslim has global "acceptance"....You know this.

We have been praying to Allah from the time of inception in the womb, our umbilical cord is the communication channel to Allah no less. We plead from that time with clenched fists to allow to be born and spread the holy word of Allah.

3) Upto this point ...I am there with the sunni. Once born however ...it is important to propogate the correct brand of Islam. This means without violence, and no abrogation of the peaceful suras.

For a while ...although I said this I didn't know how to express this i.e. bring into practice ...but now it is clear to me...and this revalation only came to me after Anwer's death.

Through anguish, and the thirst for solace , did Allah force his light upon me....and it is this ....skip a sura.

As usual stillfedup will step in at this point ...but please bear with me.

This is the blueprint ...for a brighter and lighter, (and whiter if you will) Islam...but I cannot do this on my own....I need your help ...and I freely admit this...but this is not me requesting ....this is Allah's will.

4) As your pathetic breeding practices continue, and your wild slutty womens party without shame and yet have no children...then obviously we will have more muslim childrens....(and thank you for helping feed and clothe them through social security...yor contribution is not unnoticed... particularily by the muslim...it promotes us to have even MORE childrens).

The thing is YOU KNOW THIS...but don't do anything about it ...so IT MUST BE ALLAH's will...can you not see this?

5) More peoples will convert...as businesses, (dress-making on the outskits only please) food practices, out builds, churches converting to Mosques, loudspeaker prayers etc...are on the increase....this is inevitable...thank you again.

6)Though converted YOU do deserve thanks and peace for this...also my (skip a sura) prayers are with you. . So WHY would you be anything else other than Ahmadi...with my model, peaceful suras are read, violent ones skipped...and yet you are muslim,....this is a win win situation.

Peoples ...we can only do this with numbers and teamwork ...I would urge you to see the logic of this, how about drawing up some flyers and leaving them in taxis, underground stations etc...extolling the virtues of Ahmaddia and Wuslims for all the West...it's a free world.

May Allah bless you all for reading this....and Allah show favour upon the flyer makers, here are a couple for you.

Ahmadi are wuslims, wuslims are Ahmadi.

Grow old in peace, grow old as Ahmadi

cut the umblical cord, come new brethern as Ahmadi.

Allah Hafiz



Salam's Nobel lecture

Pages 2 and 3 are about the history of Islam in science and as the leader of science in the Dark Ages period.

Salam graduated Cambridge around 1951 with a Ph.D. He was an expert in quantum electrodynamics. Klaus Fuchs was arrested in Jan 1950, and after that two Max Born assistants, Huanwu Peng and Kun Huang went back to China. Peng is credited by Bulletin of Atomic Scientists as a father of the Chinese bomb program.

Salam was Pakistan's answer to Bhabha. Bhabha gratuated Cambrige before the war and wrote on QED as well, Bhabha scattering. Bhabha was also part of India's nuclear program.


Salam later established the Trieste center for physicists from countries like Pakistan to come for a time to get help on problems. He was part of their Atomic Energy Commission at one time.

Somehow, on this site, we've come to the point where no one can think Ahmadiya without thinking about Naseem.

Hugh, Naseem has invited you into her fold, much like Mohammed invited Khusrau and Heraclius into his. You know what that means, don't you?

Lock & load

Naseem's posting above is perfect. I wouldn't change a hair on the head of its revealing sentiments, and the prose in which those sentiments are expressed.

When Naseem writes that "you will be in my prayers tonite- even though it is forbidden to pray for a kafur" I wonder why I am to have this special exception made? Is it because, unbeknownst to me, I am actually conducting Da'wa for Ahmadiya Islam,as Naseem appears to think? I thought my pointing out above that if any Muslim sect might appear to be less threatening than the others it was not the Adhmadiyas, but the Ismailis. Even Rita Hayworth thought so, in those days when everyone cavorted in Hollywood at the Garden of Allah.

I don't think Naseem has quite gotten the picture. We are suggesting to her that she jettison, for her own mental and emotional stability, Islam -- even if she has to keep her change of heart a secret from all those around her. She has taken this to mean, or pretends to have taken it to mean, that we have recognized that the only solution to the ills that ail us is to embrace Islam, until on every street-corner from Los Angeles to Liverpool, we will hear that greeting -- "hey, wassup, wuslim" -- followed by a high-five.

Sorry. No can do. No will do.

@Naseem

Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. The beast (Islam) is continuing to grow more ominous and dangerous. The false prophet is gaining converts to his cult of death.

But we have our Bible which tells us in the book of Revelation what the end will be. It won't be pretty and it won't be fun, but Christ will be triumphant and not the anti-Christ.

And you Naseem, if you believe in a world of forgiveness and a world of love:

DUMP THE FALSE PROPHET AND THE FILTHY BEAST HE LET LOOSE IN THE WORLD.

Naseem you are still considered a non-muslim, so why dont you go all the way and convert to Christianity? l mean in the eyes of the sunni or shites you are near to a dog in a burka. so being a true Infidel you will be free at last. lol

What do Muslims do for enjoyment?

Naseem could try to inform herself by reading Anwar Shaikh's Islam: The Arab National Movement.

We should look to promote and defend those of the Baha'i Faith in Muslim lands. They are persecuted there because they represent a movement towards greater rationality and justice which Muslims fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai

Hugh:

From Naseem above:

[...]
As your pathetic breeding practices continue, and your wild ------ womens party without shame and yet have no children...then obviously we will have more muslim childrens....(and thank you for helping feed and clothe them through social security...yor contribution is not unnoticed... particularily by the muslim...it promotes us to have even MORE childrens).
[...]

Naseem reminds me of my father's old riddle about what one question can be asked to determine if you've landed on the half of an island where everyone lies all the time or on the side of the island where everyone always tells the truth.

Is she a total bona fide Amadeya moonbat or only a parody of an Amadeya moonbat getting his/her jollies by engaging people here. Which one is our Naseem?

My minimum bet is on the latter.

Naseem you are a very bad woman. I suggest you stop this nonesense and become CHRISTIAN or JEWISH --leave Islam --your 'sect' still believes in defensive jihad and that can ALWAYS be changed by some sneaky ahymaddi cleric to mean what we would call aggressive jihad such as unprovoked attacks. I say you are a bad woman. Because I am a Christian and I do not come on here DEMANDING anyone convert to my faith either islamists or fellow posters who oppose Islam but have their own faiths or lack of it (like my exmuslim friend who is an agnositic). Your arrogance in coming on here and speaking like that betrays your true agenda. Islam WILL be stopped and if your sect wants to pick at the dead carcuss afterwards converting Sunnis and shiites from the wreckage that the coming holocaust of war will create in the middle east then go ahead but dont dream youll convert westerners into your little backside of the desert false prophet religion by coming on here.

I pray for YOU that YOUR eyes be open and unlike your religion we Christians are encouraged to offer up prayers for the wellbeing of ALL people.
You see in our judeo-christian capitalist democratic civilazation over here we know dont take kindly to lies.

You said in your religion you 'skip' over the bad passages of your scriptures. How drole.
In MY religion we dont have to skip over anything.
The socalled violent passages in the OT are purely historical and as for the New Testament it says over and over again: "treat others as you want them to treat you" in one way or another.

Naseem, far be it for ME to play the preacher, but ahh what the heck just this once:

REPENT


1Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all people.

StillFedUp

hmmmm I never thought of that! lol oh I laughed so hard when I read your post I almost fell off my chair. God help us if such as Nasseem start to breed!!! eeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Nevertheless she should REPENT --however I agree with you it DOES take some intelligence to even do that so I think Christendom and Judaism is safe from having her convert --no need to worry. I just read on another post at the Pipes area somewhere she attacked Western women for not taking care 'of their men' and not reproducing enough and she suggested they should have 4 muslim wives (if they become muslim). Can you imagine being a woman soooo warped in your mind that you would share your mate with 3 others? And as a religious duty no less? Yes I think our 'friend' Naseem is not playing with a full deck there.

---

I just found the link! Here is a classic Naseem quote:
"Also I can see the marriage rule of 4 women to 1 man coming in, since your own women do such a pathetic job of having adequate children for the future."

and the link is here:
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/66315

creepy.

The amazing part of reading Naseem's post is the mental acrobatics she goes through to have Islam still wind up in the right and totally justified and good for mankind.

She even tries to invoke logic. There is no rational logic in Islam. There are however rules.

Rule 1. What is good for Islam is Right.

Rule 2. Refer to rule 1.

Naseem, give it up you foolish woman unless you really think, in your fondest of fond dreams that you have even a remote chance of living through even one right wing driven Islamic purge.

Look lady, its like this. People have to have a survival story that has them be "right". Their entire system of logic is screwed around in their heads to have that happen. It does not have to be based in logic and in fact is based more in what keeps them from being figuratively whacked in the head by their immediate surroundings. It is about survival and the definition for right is very much defined by what will allow an individual to survive.

Has everyone heard that the intelligence of sheep is inversely proportional to their numbers? What that implies to me is that if you can only see the ass end of the sheep in front of you and some sheep up ahead somewhere trips and goes over the cliff, you as a member of the group will be pulled over the cliff just before you, the individual, figure out that you were wrong about your survival strategy.

You have an advantage on the sheep. You, if you will open your stupid eyes and look at things just a little differently will realize that there is no such thing as Muslim "rights." anymore than there are Christian or Jewish rights. The only way to have rights is to be in a position to first decide what the rights are and then to be strong enough to defend them or to live in a group that respects the agreement inferred by the concept of 'rights'.. So, lady, how do you intend to defend yourself against the hoards of venom spewing abrogationists when they come for you? I think you will decide that it is the will of Allah that you change you position and survive. After all, isn't that how Mohammad did things. The last rule didn't apply to a new situation so change the rule, after all, the rule will be right if it is for the good of Islam and Mohammad.

But, since there is no rational logic in Islam, you Naseem, will not hear a word of this. If this upsets you, it is a clue. It means that there is some truth to it and you should look deeper for an understanding of the world you live in. Take the blinders of Islam off and look around.

here is another quote from Naseem essay in the Pipes article:

"I think that for stability, what may work are some pieces of Sharia law and some pieces of the current American laws...to have a sort of a mix...for in 30-50 years the majority of peoples will be muslims in the America...but thats the indeginous minority musn't be forgetten in this process.

Your daughters/grandaughters input into this new integrated milder sharia will be crucial, in particular to ensure that a Meharab (male escort) or the veil or the limit of women not being able to travel more than 40 miles away from home cannot be enforceable."

Hilarious!!!! Keep Talking Naseem you make our work soooo much easier!!!

Thank you, Hugh, for begining a series on the internal sects within Islam. I had already done some reading on the Ahmadiyya sect and would like to point out that I have read (I believe accurately, but would welcome correction if I am wrong) that the main difference between the Ahmadiyya and Sunni/Shia Muslims is that these latter Muslims believe that Jesus (Isa) was not crucified (or someone else, probably Judas was crucified instead), while the Ahmadiyya believe - contrary to the Qua'ran's description of events - that Jesus really was crucified but didn't die. Instead apparently they believe he ended his life living in a cave in the Himalayas dying at the age of 112. It would thus appear that Ahmadiyya doctrine concerning Jesus is even more hostile to Christian teaching than either the Sunni/Shia beliefs in the fate of Jesus.
One small point, Hugh, regarding your mention of the Ismailis - I too remember photos of the old grossly overweight Aga Khan being weighed on a scale and on the opposite scale was his weight in what you say were diamonds but I read was gold. Diamonds or gold these incredible riches were contributed by Ismailis throughout the world no matter how poor.

From Moris 2

Re my posting above:
My apologies: I failed to credit the article on the Ahmadiyya to Wolfgang Bruno and I refered to Hugh instead of Robert. Will all concerned please accept my apologies for being so careless.

First of all, I'd like to thank Mr Wolfgang Bruno for his article concerning the Ahmadiyya sect. Second, I will be looking forward to articles concerning other offshoots of islam like Baha'i who are fiercely persecuted in Iran.

The Ahmadiyya are not a threat to Western civilization. However, they are not going to save us from extinction, since they regard themselves as muslims after all. Their predictions of the future seem like wishful thinking (based on Naseem's posting). There is going to be a Western islam (practised by 'wuslims') that will replace the outdated Arab islam as a World religion. This belief is mere wishful thinking.

The Ahmadiyya will do well if they survive. However, their success or failure does not affect the survival of Western civilization nor does it have any effect on the islamization of Europe.

If the Ahmadiyyas believe that the Koran is the word of the their god allah, then that is that. They may be quiescent for the moment, as they are persecuted by the rest of the Muslim ummah, but suffice to say, that if they ever come out on top, Koran rules will apply.

Still Fed Up-

You're too funny! You do a great job on you know who-all of them who post under that name.

Naseem seems to regard demographic conquest as a peaceful process. Attempting it is, in fact, usually the precursor to civil war - even when it is by population groups with a far less aggressive and divisive agenda than that of Islam.

Assalamau Laikum Stillfedup,

You are funni for a kafur....like a soiled boomerang thrown away ..but keeps coming back.

Are you one of those slutty wild womens I keep talking about...you obviously know a little bit about Islam..?..so I'll ask you a question if I may?

Will you be having any childrens or will you settle for cats like that loser... catgirl.

If you stick to cats and dogs...your lineage stops here....LOL

If you do have childrens...your daughters/grandaugthers will wear burkas..and will be muslimas....LOL...when there a majority...there will be little choice.

Your home town will go the way of towns in Turkey and Egypt. They will remember fondly that the vatican USED to house a pope ...like how you remember the sopia in Turkey. LOL...

Subconciously, you are really worried...but the best you can do is not go out and take me on .....but this very action means that you have lost. LOL

Allah's hell is very hot stillfedup....but you have more pressing problems at the moment don't you ....having children's or not ROTFL.....just having to ask this question means you have lost....

Yes Islam future is brighter, lighter and WHITER...and those include your granddaughters, Maria will become Maryam, Sophie will be Sophia...no no I know ...how about Naseem LOOOOL.....you are in a lose-lose situation...no wonder you are stillfedup....sleep tight and don't have nightmares....alhumdulilla, those are reserved for you while you are awake.

I am shocked that the Ahmediyas are considered a peaceful sect of islam

The Ahmediyas murdered Pandit Lek Ram, an Arya Samaj preacher who was reconverting muslims to hinduism

During the pakistan movement, the Ahmediyas led by Zafratullah Khan were very active in Anti-hindu atrocities

The persecution of Ahmediyas in Pakistan dates from 1974, when the Pakistani govt to curry favor with the Saudis declared the Ahmediyas as non-muslim

In his book entitled Islam in the African-American Experience, Richard Brent-Turner states that Wallace D. Fard and Elijah Muhammad were influenced by the teachings of the Ahmadis. This explains why the Nation of Islam revears Fard as the Mahdi and why it also revears Elijah Muhammad as the Messenger to the black man.

Another book which explains this claim is the book entitled The Messenger: The Rise and Fall of Elijah Muhammad by Karl Evanzz.

I read both books and I would also encourage contributors to Spencer's blogs to read them as well.

Islamists are rolling on the floor laughing at the thought that infidels call islam "The Religion of Peace".

They know that it is NOT! They laugh at our stupidity.

Posted by: americaningermany at December 15, 2006 11:50 AM

... again, do not take upon yourself what dubya condi and the ilk parrot. They (dubya, Condi, Carter etc..) are not 'us'. They are traitors. So, it is not 'our stupidity'. That ilk (dubya Condi, Carter and whoever else parrots 'religion of peace' like, have a corrupt and vested interestes and agenda in parroting what they parrot. We are neither corrupt, nor do we have vested interests. Thus, what these corrupt politicians do or say, has nothing to do with me or us. Hence, 'their treason' is NOT 'our stupidity' and let it NOT be conveyed as such. For those who are wondering what I am saying, in few words, these corrupt politicians are a mammoth part of the problem.

Naseem:

Sounds to me that all you are doing is just what the other creeps do and thats pick out whatever makes it sound as if you (muslims) should be on top. All the while all that you do to earn it is to live off of everyone elses hard work while you lay back and spit kids out like a pez dispenser.

Thats allahs will is for you to be provided for by the infedels while you get fat and lazy,only to move your lard butts around five times a day?

All the while in your hooey of a religion speech you basicly state you are going to overtake the world.Well the sad truth is the gravy train will someday come to a halt,mostly due to the fact the money used to feed you and your horde will be used to destroy your horde.

You see your talk is just devilish talk,i have no fear of the future,why? Because jesus said all those who believe in him will be persecuted because of him,the believers faith in him.Jesus said to teach a man to fish to feed himself not give him a fish to feed him with,this causes a reliance and you and islam are reliant on all others not the other way around.What does islam,the umma or the hierarchy contribute to society that it does not get from elsewhere?Islamic nations teach hatered,bigotry and war all rolled into the koran.Nothing of value or uplifting to mankind comes from islam or it's territory.

You see it appears as if islam has its foothold on the rest of the world for one reason,that reason is that the peaceful nations do not want what they have worked hard to create destroyed and thier people harmed.Why will islam find thier dreams of grandier misleading in the near future and crushed by the will of the fre world?They will go one step too far,as simple as that.Also you may have noticed that the american people haven't really raised hell yet,when the cold and hard as steel facts and truths about you and islam sets in it will be devastating to islam.

It's the nature of things that those who wish for peace and security to try with all thier might for those ends for even love of thy enemy is preached by jesus,not love of what they do but love for them so they may see just what atrue and mighty God and his words are like.

One reason the " islamic extremists" bring up the crusades propaganda is just that.What they are saying is we are starting the fire for the islamic caliphate and we are going to put it into your peoples head that you will retaliate with a crusade and they will disapprove and not allow it.Hence they feel an easy win.The problem with this is we are a little smarter than that once they figure out the size of israels shoes as we step in them due to islam,islam is toast.

History is always a good "road map for peace"there once was a time a long time ago when america had to do something very dreadful to ensure its security and that of it's allies to end the blood shed of the innocent from the madmens psychotic dreams,after doing this act it promised the world it would not use this weopon for harm ever again and only use it as a deterent to those with dreams of world tyrany.The U.S. will not drop a nuke to start a war but maybe just maybe when the limit has been reached it could drop one to end a war it never wanted or started.

For any islamic entity by whatever verse it chooses or sect it follows to cry then will be too late.All one will be able to do is blame yourselves for it was you and your brothers and your oppressed sisters who refused to stand up and say this is not what the umma wishes.In the free world it really is the people that have the powerwhat is the umma for?What type of weopon have you been designated,a human bomb,a human shield or a bomb factory?

You can try hard as you might to hypnotize inteligent people into submitting to islam ,but those who say no say it loudly and they say there is no such place or room here in the U.S.

The cats out of the bag on which the plans of islam are and the likes of you state it and make it quite clear so i feel i must do the same with honesty and fairmindedness to you as well.... NO TO ISLAM!

Islam speaks of it's hospitality and kindness,well you have enjoyed your share here and we have sent plenty to islam.The difference comrad,is that we still give even knowing that it will be used against us,but we know full well the ending to the story islam will retreat all the way back to the sands of time where they will enjoy thier free rice while the hierarchy enjoys the spoils of the riches of it's oppressed people because thats how muhammad and allah will it.

Even now i bet you will deny islam is spread only by the sword,yet even in your "peaceful" assertion that your sect denies that privilage to it's jihadists but all one inteligent person need do is hear past that comment onto the next.If it's not by the sword then what by a baby boom while being well cared for by the infedel? How does it feel to have your children raised by infedels?It's just a matter of time before they see you offer nothing but darkness and the light blinds thier eyes.

It's not too late as long as there is breathe in your lungs and blood in your veins to call on the true and mighty one God and his son Jesus to save your soul.Chances are real good too that if you desire to go back to islam you will live to do so,he left the choice up to you he doesn't force you to love him by the threat of earthly death.He offers way more than a life of slavery and destitute.

Standing in the light waiting for the day of days

yours truly dar al-harb

SORRY THIS POST WAS SO LONG

Ahmadiyya Shia, Sunni Wahabbi are are the part of the same umma that will happily slit an infidel throat.

If you do have childrens...your daughters/grandaugthers will wear burkas..and will be muslimas....LOL

Posted by Naseem at December 15, 2006 07:22 PM

...... and some on this board sympathized with Naseem on her tragedy. See how muslims pay infidels?

HaHa,naseem what a nutbag.Are you the offspring of imanutajoba ( the iranian monkey man)?Perhaps you were the result of one of his conquests,who knows....only allah i guess....HaHa

On your wishing someone to sleep tight but not to have nightmares becuase those are for the daytime ,bad things from islam only happen durring the day huh? got it thats good to know i guess i will sleep better then...HaHa (i don't sleep bad because of islam....period)

However it safe to say,i imagine,that there are plenty of muslims that haven't had a very good nights sleep in a few yaers,one could lose thier head if they did (literally) you know the ironic part about that comment?Islam is causing the restless nights.funny isn't it?

One has to wonder just which sect is it that is going to reign over the U.S.? will it be shiite,sunni or your "non muslim" muslim sect (the ummas choice not mine)? Will this reality be determined by the sect that brings the submission of the other sects to reality?There has to be a top dog sect doesn't there/i mean sunni don't think shiite are true muslims and vice versa.or will it be a coalition between the two.eh i guees anything is possible.Personally i hope they band together it would be much easier to fight and destroy,however i doubt one will allow the other to gain more power so i see the usual muslim on muslim wars of peace.

In any case i don't care to know thier names thats allahs job to sort 'em out (allah shakes his fist down at the horde)as for the infedels well our only job is soon enough to cause allah to install an expressway.

Good night naseem,only about 15 more days till pay day,Don't worry about your child bearing bills or health care for you and your children,the infedels will be sure to make you all healthy to carry the load of those vests.

Signed ,no daymares here,sleeping pretty good at night.
Still standing in the light waiting for the day of days
sincerity as hard as steel....NO TO ISLAM

Dar Al-Harb

What also became the of the line for the Aztecs was one special apparation of Mary, the mother of Jesus called "Guadalupe". That apparation caused the natives to convert to Christianity en masse.

"The Ismailis, who weigh their leader the Aga Khan and then give him his weight in diamonds (I still remember the old newsreels) on the other hand, are a slightly different matter. Ibn Warraq thinks that they may be what Westerners think the Ahmadiyas are. However, how many Ismailis are there? How much does its perceived moderation come from the clash of elements within it with the real full-fledged Islam?"

Posted by Hugh above.

Ibn Warraq is right! The Ismailis are the real thing when it comes to peaceful, reformed "Islam". However, few other Muslims would recognize them as such. Theologically, they are a fusion of Islam, Christianity and Hinduism. They accept reincarnation and reject jihad. While they honour Muhammed they believe that the guidance of the current Imām, the Agha Khan ("the of the time") is absolute and supercedes the Quran.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili

The first Agha Khan recieved his title of Highness when he ordered hi followers to support the British against the Muslims.

There are actually a whole lot of them since the Ismailis are the second largest part of the Shī'a community, after the Twelvers. They include several million Hazaras in Afghanistan and at least a million Tajiks. In Pakistan, they are persecuted just like Christians.

I just attended an Ismaili feast with some of my Pakistani students honouring the Agha Khan's birthday and have the utmost respect for this wonderful people who have maintained a culture of self-reliance, unity, and a common identity notwithstanding centuries of being marginalized and persecuted by mainstream Islam. These people deserve our full support.

The parentheses above should have read "the Agha Khan ("the imam of the time")."

Incidently, Hugh, the diamonds collected from wealthy Ismailis you mention above, were sold and the proceeds distributed to the poor.

While I look forward to the article concerning the Baha'i Faith, I feel that it should be pointed out that it is not a sect or offshoot of Islam, but rather a completely separate religion. The Baha'i Faith shares the same relationship with Islam as Christianity shares with Judaism: Christ was originally a Jew but professed a separate religion, and Baha'u'llah (founder of the Baha'i Faith) was originally a Muslim, but professed a separate religion, which is why the Baha'i Faith is so heavily persecuted in Iran.

Assalamau Laikum Stillfedup,

Thank you for answering my question. 12 childrens eh, my you have been a busy woman...and now you are an old hag....oh my Allaha T'alah has been generous.

But now you are wide open (in more ways than one) to have LOTS of converts for Islam LOL.

I don't want anything to happen to you Stillfedup, I want you to see each one of your dears convert...please feel no pain or regret ...this is Allah's will , your god and mine.

In a couple of generations they too will inbreed...like you keep saying about pakis...and they too will end up with half a brain ...as you keep saying...you know about the gander and the goose..

All this for you to look forwards to...
you heart pierced with pangs of anguish at each conversion...truly you can see now can't you why you had so many childrens....yes your nightmare will indeed by your day time mares .

My , my allah is most merciful, keep yur prayers for your generations ...they are sure gonna need them...ROTFL.

"...... and some on this board sympathized with Naseem on her tragedy. See how muslims pay infidels?"
that was WRONG in the first place.
I would advice the good believers of this blog to send their prayers to someone else.
Posted by: StillFedUp

StillFedUp,

I do not regret initially offering condolences to Naseem, but as she proved that day and has constantly proved since, she was unworthy of the concern. That does not make the initial, human, sympathetic gesture wrong, it only speaks more of the intended recipient's unworthiness.

After the condolences offered by myself and others (for which I received significant vilification for offering said condolences, especially regarding a traditional Arabic response to her greeting), she immediately went into her bloodthirsty Islamic triumphalistic schtick, to which I replied:

Naseem,

I commend you on your rapid recovery and thank you for your concern regarding our bloodshed. What you request will require all of it, and gladly given (the blood, that is). Because it will not happen. But you will know why it is called Dar-al-Harb.

We will not bow to it or your Allah. We already have a God who is not capricious or evil.

Your Islam claims to believe in the Torah and the Injeel. Does it ever bother you that you have no "uncorrupted" manuscripts of these sources from antiquity that corroborates your Qur'an? Have you thought why that might be?

Our destiny was ordained before the world was made. Your false prophet cannot change it.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen

That was July 6, 2006. She has not changed one bit. But I still believe the initial attempt at human contact was not "wrong".

You poor simpleton! I'd kill my 4 girls myself before I'd see them end up mozlem. Try to take over America and we'll jihad YOU.

It would even suprise Naseem that even in Kurwait, there is a Roman Catholic diocesse and three parishes, as this interesting website presents. There is even a special title of Mary the mother of Jesus, "Our Lady of Arabia". So even the Christian church, be it Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, is present in the Muslim world.

Also a correction to the reference of the end of the Aztecs, it should have read, "end of the line for the Aztecs" in reference to the appearence to Mary at Guadalupe in a previous posting.

Here is the URL of this Catholic diocesse in Kurwait.

http://www.catholic-church.org/kuwait/index.htm

On another thread a few days ago, Naseem was decrying American in Germany's unwillingness to be friends. Well, my friends love me for who I am. They don't tell me I have to do things their way in order to be their friends, nor that I have to do it their way because someone they believe is God (and I don't ) and tells them that I am obligated to do it their way. I have many friends who don't think like I do religiously in the slightest, and I love them and accept them for who they are. If I cannot accept them or if they can't accept me, we part and are not friends.

You can't have it both ways.







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