In "Which One God? Comparing the Muslim and Christian conceptions of God," the renowned and pioneering historian Bat Ye'or reviews -- in, of all places, National Review -- Mark Durie's important new book Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God?, which, alas, does not seem to be available at Amazon.
With the passing of time, hidden challenges, which for a long time had been growing unnoticed and unaddressed, can suddenly emerge into the full-blown light of current events with a force which seems quite overwhelming. Today the Western world, or Judeo-Christian civilization, shaken by jihadist terror, is being rudely awakened to theological realities blurred for decades. From clashes of civilizations to the jihad that is declaring to the planet its genocidal intentions, rational discourse concerning faith is becoming increasingly fraught.It is within this tumult and confusion that Mark Durie, an Anglican minister, has written Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God?, in which he raises a couple of fundamental questions: Who is God? Is God Allah? Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?
To answer these questions, he analyzes Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God in Christianity and Islam. The reader is given a concise representation of Muslim and Christian arguments. Such an endeavor needs both solid scholarship and theological training. Mark Durie possesses both, being a theologian and a graduate in the language and culture of the Acehnese, a Muslim people from the north of Sumatra in Indonesia. In addition, the subjects he addresses, in the current context, request much intellectual integrity and courage.
But how to know the identity of “God” in the Koran and in the Bible? The author stresses that this profound and deep question requires engaging with the very essence of God’s identity. With perspicacity and great objectivity, Durie delineates the diverse aspects of his investigations, but he warns that his book should be seen only as guidance, and not the last word.
Durie’s questioning grows from the Koran’s statement that Jesus is a Muslim prophet, named Isa — a prophet whose birth, life, teaching, and death are found to be totally at odds with the testimony of the Gospels and with Biblical theology. The Koran — which for Muslims is the literal word of Allah that cannot be doubted — affirms that Muhammad’s prophetic message is exactly the same as that expressed by the Torah and the Gospels. Since there are many contradictions between the Koran and the Bible, Muslim orthodoxy considers the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity as falsifications of the primal and unique Islamic revelation. It is this accusation that provided the doctrinal justification for the discriminatory legal status of Jews and Christians living under Islam.
In the first section, the author provides information about and reflections upon the Muslim Jesus (Isa). He stresses as fundamental the Koran’s teaching that Islam is the first, primordial religion, preceding Judaism and Christianity, which are dismissed as invalid traditions, being falsified versions of Islam. Because Christianity and Judaism are thought to be a corruption of the pure message of Islam, anything true in these religions comes from their Islamic roots. Consequently, to obey their true religion, Jews and Christians should “revert” to Islam and accept the prophethood of Muhammad.
This implies, writes Durie, that anyone who opposes Muhammad is not a true Christian, nor a true Jew. Seen in this light, the Koranic verses sympathetic to Jews and Christians refer to those who will see the light and find it to be Islam. If Islam recognizes only itself in Judaism and Christianity, one can wonder whether this replacement theology is not the negation of the very principle of recognition of other religions.
Indeed it is. Read it all.
Silly rabbit, God would not tell Mohammad that it was okay to kill the Jews... It's that simple.
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
"He stresses as fundamental the Koran’s teaching that Islam is the first, primordial religion, preceding Judaism and Christianity, which are dismissed as invalid traditions, being falsified versions of Islam".
Islam always turns the truth upside down. This assertion by the cult of death is among the more ridiculous. After reading the Koran I thought the most laughable part was the one where Mo will return and kill all the infidels. Right next to him, so this book claims, will be Jesus, who will repudiate Christianity and help Mo in his bloody work. Call me stupid but somehow I just can't picture Jesus doing these things.
If Islam is indeed the true religion that sets Christianity and Judaism right then I'm turning athiest. Islam's "purification" of the earlier religions is for savages.
Wow. Thank you. I'm adding that book to my wish list.
If we are to reason by faith within a religion, then we have to ask is it an article of faith in a religion what other religions say?
Most religions are inward looking, as opposed to saying what the people in other religions are actually doing, unless its negative.
By the time Islam came along on or after 622 A.D. it was too late for Christianity to state as an article of its founding faith, what it is Muslims are doing in their faith.
What about for Islam?
If God = (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) for Christians and God is unitary for Muslims, then these are logically not the same thing. They are different logical objects or logical entities.
Christians and Muslims can't worship the same God if the God object is different for the two. This would be common sense logic. However, it might be overridden by an explicit statement of faith.
One can interpret Islam as explicitly saying that Jesus is not part of God. To that extent, Islam is saying that Christians don't worship the same logical entity as Muslims.
On the other hand, Islam gives a special place for people of the book. It seems we are back in that what does Islam really mean thing.
Does Islam acknowledge any non-Muslim as worshipping the true God?
Speaking from outside any religion, is God in a religion the complete set of attributes assumed or stated for that God in that religion? If the God in a religion is all or a key set of attributes, as part of the definition of God, then two different sets of attributes mean two different Gods, by definition.
If faith is still open, or natural reasoning is allowed, or other means, then this question can be addressed from outside the four corners of the original documents of the faiths.
George Bush if asked, and other politicians have said over and over that we worship the same God. This seems to be simultaneous interpretation of two religions. Something George Bush is as fit for as deciding what our goals are in the Global War on Terror.
How does the muslim know that mohammed's teachings superceed previous revelation? When Jesus did such, he walked back from the grave to prove it. What proof does any muslim have or evidence, that the Jewish Masoretic text or the Christian New Testament has been altered?? It is simply fantasy carved out by a child-molesting, blood-thirsty murderer, mohammed himself. You can't just say, at one point in time, that everything previous to this has been corrupted and not offer any evidence or demonstrate any examples of how and when and such....why only a fool would believe you...indeed, they have!
Yes, and this book will be ignored by the PC, multiculturalist media. Their take on religion is that it is totally irrelevant to the why of human activity, unless the religion is Christianity which is to blame for all evil acts and none of the good in this world.
Their "Creed" is:
"We believe that everything's getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated.
You can prove anything with evidence.
We believe there's something in horoscopes,
ufo's and bent spoons.
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha
Mohammed and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher although we
think his good morals were bad.
We believe that all religions are basically
the same,
at least the one we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of
creation sin heaven hell God and salvation."
(by Steve Turner)
Muslim supremacy is based upon the notion that Islam is the only complete religion and Christianity and Judaism are false and incomplete.
By stating that anything true in other religions has Islamic roots, Muslims are re-creating history with very broad brush strokes. Muslims are promoting a deeply flawed understanding of history that paints Islam in every corner of the page.
Jesus saves.
Mo rants and raves.
There's the difference, pure and simple. Which would a rational person follow?
Don't be fooled by Muslim talk of how Isa is Jesus Christ.
Mohammad no doubt had heard of Yeshua(Jesus)- Jerusalem and Medina were cities along which several trade routes flourished - and corrupted it to Isa in his Koran - that's all.
THE MUSLIM ISA("JESUS")IS A BEING WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RETURN TO EARTH AND KILL ALL THE INFIDELS IN THE MANNER OF OL'MO HIMSELF.(Koran, Hadiths)
Not the Jesus Christ most Christians believe in, I assume.
I am not a religious scholar, but I have always had the impression that all religions except one have two major components – a belief that they know their god through some special messaging system that the god used to communicate with them and the “book of nature” – that all that we see around us, the laws of nature in all its forms, is god speaking to us.
What “religion” is the exception? Three guesses and the first two don’t count. Islam is alone in focusing all of its attention on the delusions of its “holy” book. This abjuration of nature, unique to Islam, explains the hopeless backwardness of all Muslim societies, technologically, artistically, scholastically, ... you name it. That feature of Islam, wherein the Koran is all, also goes a long way in explaining the fundamental dehumanizing character of that insidious ideology.
Don't be fooled by Muslim talk of how Isa is Jesus Christ.
Posted by: chinubhai86 at December 7, 2006 09:53 AM
Leave it to the Islamaniacs to slander Jesus. They MUST pervert everything-they just can't help themselves.
P.S. - Remember Pearl Harbor!
Allah is a baby in diapers who screams and throws temper tantrums when he thinks people are mocking him. He wants the sandbox for himself. He's mean and fickle and about as real as a loony tune character.
P.S. - Remember Pearl Harbor!
Posted by: BunrattyBill at December 7, 2006 09:59 AM
Tell it to the Islamaniacs- they're as clueless as Tojo was.
This book addresse a different kind of intelectuals and I believe that it will do a good job.
For myself and for the whole situation I "KISS" it (Keep It Simply Simple)
We-slam
I don't claim to be some maven of knowledge re Christ, but i have read the Gospels. It is very clear that Jesus warns against deception-hypocrisy as being from the "Evil one". Jesus says "let your Yes be Yes and No be No- everything else comes from the evil one".
Jesus basically tells us that God forgives us for all our sinfulness, but not for deceit-hypocrisy. Jesus tells us to be careful in our judgements of others and to be sure to hold ourselves to the same standards by which we judge others and not be hypocrite-deceivers: "Judge not lest you be judged, for by what standard you judge, you will be judged".
I hope Jesus is the Messiah and when I croak that Jesus will say to me: "Frank, you were admittedly sinful, but you never pretended to be anything other than a human with human nature. You can enter eternity and be with God". I'll say: "Jesus, is that deceitful guy Mohammad someplace else"?
I'll say: "Jesus, is that deceitful guy Mohammad someplace else"?
Posted by: Frank at December 7, 2006 10:10 AM
I'd not ask him what answers itlself.
I had a talk with a lawyer from a region which is directly under treats of terror.
That person taught me that muslims will use and are using any hypocratic means for their Jihad.
Of course we don't believe in the same God as muslims. We believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and God incarnate. They believe in some Isa dude being a "prophet" and no matter how much they deny it, they worship mohammed.
If we allow historical reasoning, then we can say that Islam came along after Christianity and Judaism, and based on oral tradition, adopted parts of the Jewish works in particular as its own. But this led to ridicule of errors in getting it right.
So to cover this plagiarism up, it said that Jewish and Christian sources were wrong. This was to avoid the embarrassment of a man. Like faculty plagiarism of published work in general, destroying the career or reputation of the victim becomes the life work of the plagiarist.
So from the historical point of view, Islam fell into this pattern. So it condemns the works and the people of the sources of its plagiarism.
What is the core of Islam? One view is that its a Ponzi scheme. Its about dividing loot and the promise of loot. It took on some existing oral tradition as part of its cover story. Then when caught in plagiarism, it said the sources were wrong, and the people who believe in them.
But those people are the intended victims of the looting promised the Muslims from 622 A.D. onwards. The attacks that followed were to deliver the promised loot.
The Koran was written down in historical time under the direction of the Caliphate. It had to justify whatever the Caliphate was doing, had done, and wanted to keep open. This makes its treatment of other religions political and not sincere.
Any discussion of Christianity and Judaism by Islam leads to the issue of its plagiarism. This undermines Islam and its claims for the origin of the Koran. This is why they have to penalize criticism of the provenance of the Koran.
Speaking of Pearl Harbor -- I'm reminded of a young adult male student of mine in Turkey who told me that Pearl Harbor was faked by the Americans so that they would later have an excuse to use the nuclear bomb on the Japanese.
Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the prince of peace and the glory of his people Israel.
"Of course we don't believe in the same God as muslims. We believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and God incarnate. They believe in some Isa dude being a "prophet" and no matter how much they deny it, they worship mohammed." EliasAlucard
"Any discussion of Christianity and Judaism by Islam leads to the issue of its plagiarism. This undermines Islam and its claims for the origin of the Koran. This is why they have to penalize criticism of the provenance of the Koran." oldatlantic.
Two good posts by the above. I can't figure out how Islam claims Jesus as a prophet. He blasphemed and called Himself the same as God the Father. Doesn't this negate the concept of monotheism? Or it make Jesus a liar? How can you venerate a liar?
Oh, I suppose they conveniently say that the eyewitnesses who wrote His statements down less than 30 years after the actual events perverted the truth and Jesus never said those things.
And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...? I worship the great god Marmaluke...this matters little untill I convince others of Marmalukes superiority, and gain enough strength to foist my beliefs on the rest of the world. If you dont believe in Marmaluke, you will die and your family will suffer from your denials. If Marmaluke directly does not kill you, one of my highly trained assassins will. And dont forget to send a check...
Marmaluke is the one true god...if you deny that, you are marked for death.
And so goes Islam and its phony god Allah.
In my limited capacity, I have made numerous posts dealing with this subject. From pointing out that Allah is a duality, to the fact that one claims to have a son while the other does not.
There are lots of inconsistancies between the demon and the real God. Allah was an invention, created by A man, Mohammad...Mohammad was Allah, and still is.
I actually do not need the well meaning articles of Bat Yeor, or an Angelican minister to convince me that Allah is not God. I figured that one out myself...
Oops, I should say Jesus was accused of blaspheming, but actually He spoke the truth.
COINCIDENCE OR THE HAND OF GOD?
Is it merely coincidence that The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the same year that Israel became a state? Or did Yahweh decide the time was ripe for exposing the fraud of Islam?
Die-hard izlamicist liars will have a hard time describing how the Jews changed the Koran into the Old Testament now that perfect copies of the Old Testament have been found dating over 600 years before the birth of the evil one mohammad.
The one true living God did comment definitively on Mohammed and Islam long before it appeared on the world scene. He said:
"...all who hate me love death." Proverb 8:36
Ynkedoodl2, that's an interesting theory. I think you've definitely got a good point.
CHRISTIAN DEFENDERS OF ISLAM
Among the defenders of islam in present time is a large group of European clergymen, especially pious prists and missionaries. They have a keen knowledge of Islam in contrast to the filosophers of the Age of Enlightenment, who used their poor knowledge of Islam as a tool to break down Christianity by claiming Islam to be a more rationalistic religion without miracles and mysteries. But our days Christian clergy know, that they have to grant Islam a large measure of religious equality. They build on the notion, that Christianity and Islam are sisterreligions subject to the same fate in relation to the postchristian modernity and rationality of the Western secular states.
They abstain from critizing the dogma and absurdities of Islam, because such a criticism would undermine the foundation of their own work. From this stems the wish of christian scolars not to provoke Islam. They do not wish to anger muslim friends and colleages. They want to work without having to choose side. And they abstain from putting Islam into the context of critical debate and seek concensus frist and foremost.
Also a theological and scientific critic is interpreted as a lack of Christian understanding and acceptance of cultural different people.
Arnie-
Joking aside, there is a very clear theme re the source of evil, as per Jesus. It is in deceit. He warmly greets Nathanial as "an Israelite in whom there is no guile", condemns the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, but is gentle with admitted sinners, even Mafia types. In the ancient world tax collectors (such as Mathew and Levi) were leg breakers who met a tax number and could keep anything over that. Levi was shocked when Jesus wanted to have dinner at Livi's house. These "tax collectors" were John Gotti types.
The fundamental difference between Islam and the message of Jesus is in this matter of deception. Jesus said all deception was from the "evil one".
Jesus tells us that God understands our sinful nature and loves us. Jesus says deceivers are full of violence and Mohamed says deceive. That's that the difference between the message of Jesus and the message of Mohammad.
Speaking of Pearl Harbor -- I'm reminded of a young adult male student of mine in Turkey who told me that Pearl Harbor was faked by the Americans so that they would later have an excuse to use the nuclear bomb on the Japanese.
Posted by: Jen at December 7, 2006 10:31 AM
That's the funniest thing I've heard in a while!
I hope you gave him an F- in history for that one.
ISLAMOLOGIC 101
@Jen
The student gave the teacher a lesson in "Islamologic 101"
A student teaching the teacher is somewhat backwards. Sorta like Islamologic.
The similarity between bad Christians and "good" Muslims is deceit. Jesus says the wrath of God is waiting for deceivers, who Jesus compares to wolves among sheep. He said they are full of deception-violence.
Oh dear , why are people still discussing this...
anyone with a modicum of intelligence and common
sense knows exactly what Blackbeard the Bedouin
was.
He was a murdering,lying,raping,kidnapping,robbing
child molester who received "revelations" from his
God (?)which he used to excused his henious crimes.
This gangster was more transparent than glass and
as i said before,any analyst would have a field day with him.
Muhammad was a text-book grade A nutter.
Frank - great post...
In the Gospels of Mathew and Mark is the following statement:
(Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.")
and, then there this:
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
It's is clear to me, that I worship the one and only true GOD. The creator of heaven and earth and ALL things upon it, including satan...
As, I have written before...It's it is time to shine the light of truth upon this darkness...
And, then lets finish with this:
Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
KnightHawk
Today is Pearl Harbor Day. We recognized their treachery because they came in greart big waves and they had military symbols painted on their planes.
The moslems come in one by one.. in tens and twenties too.. they settle and then bring in more.
I used to say back in the eighties that the mightiest weapon of the enemies of the West is a passport.
"That is SO racist. How can you say something like that?"
Political Correctness and moral and cultural relativism is the Dwonfall. It's our weakness that makes them seem strong.
Give me ONE good week of anti-moslem rioting all over Europe and they'll be set back for years.. decades even.
What will it take to get that ONE week?!
Of course they'll put our people in jail and make them miserable for life! I wonder how many of the moslem car-burners have met justice in France. And if so, what happened besides a slap on the wrist?
As I've said a million times, you have to be braindead believe in Islam. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Seems as though the ancient Jews had much experience with the Arabs, and that this fatalism and love of death that is Islam is older than Islam..and it is. In Arab tribal society nothing is more important than muruwwa (manhood..honor, face) and to save that and save the pride of the tribe they embrace death.
Assalamai Laikum all,
Both Christians and we Muslims share belief in a sovereign deity; one, heavenly, spiritual, the creator of heaven and earth and the judge of all mankind. Christians call Him "God" and Muslims call Him "Allah" .
From this simplistic argument, many presume that God and Allah are the same and that Allah is another name for God, but let's look aunder the bonnet for a bit!
Christians, believe in One god who has made Himself manifest in three Personages: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus declared this doctrine by saying:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:19
The Quran reveals however that he said:
"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)" Surah 5:119
Worship me and my mother...just the two of them NOT 3...NOT 3...not the holy ghost + Yahweh as well. Despite it all, I find it is intersting how MOther Mary has been left out in the cold by Christians.
Can you not see the difference....even from this simple argument we CAN infer that the bible has unfortunately been corrupted.
Going on, the Koran says..."O people of the book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of God aught but truth, Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist! >bIt will be better for you. For God is One God. Glory be to Him:(Far exalted is He) above having a son" Surah 4:171
The Koran puts to bed all doubts by surmizing....
They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" Surah 5:76
Sp peoples ...there you go ...you have been fooled all these yesterdays....the koran does indeed provide light where darkness prevales.
I say onto thee ..."Allah is there for your salvation...and he is most merciful"...but you have to belive....convert and present yourself before Allah....be there or be square.
"Mark Durie's important new book Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God?, which, alas, does not seem to be available at Amazon."
Sadly, it's not, BUT you can view his 89 page "Witness Statement" that he prepared for the judicial case: Islamic Council of Victoria v. Catch the Fire Ministries. I highly recommend it!!
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:hx7CYHi0HS4J:www.saltshakers.org.au/pdf/313278_VCAT_-_DOCUMENTS_RELATIN.pdf+Mark+Durie&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=safari
Here is what they say about Jesus:
Isa Not Crucified nor Killed
That they said (in boast) "We killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for, of a surety they killed him not.
No, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
(al-Qur'an 4:157-158)
Isa Not the Son of God
O People of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist! It will be better for you: for Allah is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
(al-Qur'an 4:171)
Abu-Dawud Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated Abu Hurayrah:
The Prophet (Muhammad) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam.
============================================
Christians will say, "I don't think so!"
Which One God?
Why all the confusion?
This may be entirely too simplistic and even offensive to some but when Jesus flatly stated in John 14:26: “I am THE WAY and THE TRUTH and THE LIGHT and NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT though Me”, I don't think there is much room left for argument in this preposterous divine equivalence argument.
This pretty much wraps up the argument for me, folks, as I didn’t hear him leave room for a fat little, fuzzy-bearded, usurper who calls himself a prophet and just happens to have an over active sex organ. Either Christ told the complete truth about himself in this verse or it was a total lie. I for one accept the SON of God at his word. To me, at least, it is absolute blasphemy, for some mean-spirited and hateful muzbutt usurpers to run around saying ‘we all worship the same God’ It just ain’t so folks – never was and never could be and me thinks this pious islamic ‘smoke-screen’ is truly nothing more than ‘breaking wind’.
It's no more simple than Gregory M. Davis' example from yesterday. To the Christian, God is great because He is good. To the Islamist, Allah is good because he is great. There is no definition of what "good" is in regard to the Muslim god. There is nothing defining about it, apart from what attributes their "prophet" gives it.
It (their god) bestows nothing. It only demands worship, submission, and death to all who resists its demands. Read the Psalms to find the numerous aspects of God's mercy, grace, and love to all who seek Him. The difference between the God I worship and the creature that Islamists submit to is like contrasting Albert Schweitzer with Adolf Hitler.
The difference is that stark.
Naseem,
You are always so DEADWRONG! Become enlightened and accept the love of the one & only true GOD.
Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"
Luke 9:35
A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."
2 Peter 1:17
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
and from the cross!
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
KnightHawk
Jesus claims to be one with the Father (John 10:30)
The Jews understand that Jesus is claiming to be God. (John 10:31-33)
Jesus rephrases his claim with the term "God's son" and shows that this means "God" by reference to Psalm 82:6.
Jesus answers the charge against him, that he is "making himself God" by showing that it is not he but the Father that does this.
Christ does not claim to be misunderstood, rather he says that the Jews do not believe him (John 10:38).
It was the Feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in Solomon's porch. The Jews therefore came around him and said to him, "How long will you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify about me. But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?"
The Jews answered him, "We don't stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God."
Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods?' If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' If I don't do the works of my Father, don't believe me. But if I do them, though you don't believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
They sought again to seize him, and he went out of their hand. He went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was baptizing at first, and there he stayed. Many came to him. They said, "John indeed did no sign, but everything that John said about this man is true." Many believed in him there.
John 10:22-42
Full Chapter
OT but concerning books about Islam.
My city's library has an online database and ordering system. It has three of Robert Spencer's books. One of the categories his books are listed under is, "Islam -- Controversial Literature". Ibn Warraq's book, "Why I Am Not A Muslim", is included in this category, as is Irshad Manji's book.
The evil one is a trickster. To deceive his minions, Satan (Mohammad) tells his followers that they will kickin it in paradise with hootchie-kootchie musalimas. "Fall down and worship me," says the devil, "and I will give you everything your basest instincts desire."
Old Atlantic wrote: "the promised loot".
I feel a Muslim spiritual coming on: "I'm a' goin' to the Promised Loot".
DebV -
It's nice to see a sister online. Remember, though, they will all come after us in the end.
Deb, I am sure they don't want us debating Christianity here, you can believe whatever you want, of course, but remember this, the reason why Jesus was sentenced to death is BECAUSE He claimed to be God, claimed to be able to forgive sins. claimed all the traits one would need to be God.
That is why He was rejected by men.
DebV -
Mexico. I know, it's hard not to get involved. Just remember to never get too fond of any part of Satan's world. Like I said, in the end . . .
Naseem said:
"They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" Surah 5:76"
Here is the essential misunderstanding about who and WHAT God is. God is not a singular being, but rather an OFFICE. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God said in Genesis 1:26: "Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Note God speaks of Himself in a plural form. Later in the book of Joshua, chapter 5, verses 13 through 15:
13: And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14: And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15: And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Note here, that Joshua worships this person who identifies himself as "the captain of the LORD's host," this person does NOT tell him to stop doing so (had it been a mere angle, he would have), and he goes on to thell him to remove his shoes, because the land where he stood is holy (the same words God gave to Moses when he saw the bush that burned but was not consumed).
Can God ever NOT be in His heaven? Clearly he was in this instance, but God is not limited as Allah is, because God is not simply a "god" who is one place at one time. God is three beings, holding one purpose and one office. The Son came to Earth in a number of instances to fulifill his Father's purpose, and currently the HOLY SPIRIT inhabits God's true followers.
The pedophilic "prophet" did indeed blasphemed God in every way possible by proclaiming that He is not who He is, but merely a "god" who demands to be submitted to, and that his chosen prophet would be a murdering sex maniac.
...When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they shouted, saying, "Crucify! Crucify!" Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves, and crucify him, for I find no basis for a charge against him."
The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."
When therefore Pilate heard this saying, he was more afraid....
A_Plague_on_Both_Houses-
With the gospels we have to keep in mind that these are written by guys reporting on what Jesus said and are doing so from memory. It's not like dictation (as in the Koran). However, the whole thing has a ring of authenticity to it and the person of Jesus rings true. That's true re events after Jesus is gone. If I remember right, at one one point Saint Paul in one of his letters complains that Peter thinks he's a big deal because he knew Jesus when he was on earth. Saint Paul expresses annoyance at Peter.
Something happened that rings true when taken as a whole. However, I am wary of Bible quoters, as if the Gospel is some kind of dictation.
The message of Jesus is clear on many things. On deceit, Jesus definitely takes a hard-line. He also defies literalism, as with the stoning of the woman caught in adultery. He writes in the sand the secret sins of those who would stone her based on the literal interpretation of the law. One by one the men who would stone her high tail it out of his presence.
Jesus was not a guy to be trifled with and was not fooled by anyone. It's quite remarkable when taken as a whole.
You know we wonder why anyone would accept Islam, but I don't wonder why anyone wouldn't want to accept a religion that says it is perfectly acceptable to "shoot and loot", it is a good match for those have-nots who want to have.
The Koran puts to bed all doubts by surmizing....
They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" Surah 5:76
Sp peoples ...there you go ...you have been fooled all these yesterdays....the koran does indeed provide light where darkness prevales..
Posted by Naseem above..
And you know when the Contradictory Qu’an sheds light on anything, the light is so dim its really hard to see through the shadows!
010.090
YUSUFALI: We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
017.002
YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."
044.030
YUSUFALI: We did deliver aforetime the Children of Israel from humiliating Punishment.
Nassem, Who is the we, does your Allah have a mouse in his pocket?
Or was Mohammed that stupid?
I'll take the "God" that doesn't advocate the act of first-degree murder and that of course would be Yahweh! (and NOT al-lah, the blood-crazed moon-god from Mesopotamia!!!!).
ps, Kay: South Korea and Taiwan provide recent illustrations that shoot and loot is NOT the only or even best path to prosperity.
'Shoot and loot' is for losers like Hugo Chavez' regime that haven't the class or intellect to find the beneficial ways to economic prosperity that really ARE out there.
Assalamau Laikum Frank,
You peoples believe in the trinity ...and I can try and respect that....but it is overly complicated is it not?
Why would God bring in a (holy) ghost into the mix. I find that a bit hard to understand? Is this supposed to be like a concept or a real ghost...how did it become holy?....how would you recognise a holy ghost, how would you know if you are blessed by (him?) the holy ghost?
Another question I have is "Why has Mary been left out in the cold? ...i.e. not part of the trinity?"
Womens in Islam are given the greatest respect..without woman there is no man...why does Christianity not recognise the essential role of womanes like Islam does?
Peace be upon you thinking and Thanx in advance!
@Naseem
The Koran is one lie on top of a lie.
The Koran lies about what was said. Then the Koran calls the narrators of imaginary narrations liars. Then it calls the imaginary narrators of the imaginary narrations liars for not telling a different lie.
When does the lying end?
How can Christians and Muslims worship the same God, if the God of the universe revealed
1) In the NT that God consists of Trinity (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit). And then 600 years later changed his mind and revealed in the Qur’an that God is Unitarian. Rejecting the notion of the Triune God, and even rejecting that God has a Son (Sura 4:171, Sura 112:2-3).
2) In the NT that Jesus is the Son of the living God who died on the cross, and then 600 years later, changed his mind and declared in the Qur’an, that Jesus is not the son of God and did not die on the cross (Sura 4:157)
It defies the basic laws of logic, known as the law of non-contradiction.
If there is one God, can this God of the universe change his mind 600 years later?
Can God be Trinitarian and Unitarian at the same time?
Can God’s son Jesus die on the cross and not die on the cross at the same time?
If this God changes his mind and confuses people, he must be Schizophrenic. Therefore, we do not worship the same God.
How can Christians and Muslims worship the same God if the Allah of the Qur’an
1) Commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends (Sura 5:51)
2) Commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax. (Sura 9:29)
3) Makes references to Jews as "apes and swine to be despised and rejected" (Sura 2:65-66)
@Naseem:
I am trying to work out a proper "fitra" life-style should I convert to Islam. I could give up cold beer and the idea of praying on my hands and knees five times a day is actually something I could relate to. Now growing a beard would be uncomfortable, but imagine my chagrin when I discovered that I would have to shave my private parts. Is this really, absolutely mandatory. Inquiring minds need to know. Here is the Hadith that caught my attention:
(7) Narrated Abu Huraira : I heard the Prophet saying. "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." (Book #72, Hadith #779)
Naseem says:
"Why would God bring in a (holy) ghost into the mix. I find that a bit hard to understand? Is this supposed to be like a concept or a real ghost...how did it become holy?....how would you recognise a holy ghost, how would you know if you are blessed by (him?) the holy ghost?"
It is hard for you to understand because you refuse to grasp who God is. God did not BECOME the Trinity. The Trinity is WHAT GOD IS. The Trinity is WHAT GOD ALWAYS HAS BEEN. God is and has always been God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
'Another question I have is "Why has Mary been left out in the cold? ...i.e. not part of the trinity?"'
Because Mary was a creation of God. God made Mary, and how does God create that which was, is, and always will be eternal? Mary was also a fallen being. She was subject to the sin nature that befalls all of humanity. She was the child of fallen human beings, the same as the parents of us all. She was an obedient and lovely servent of God, but she was NOT divine.
"Womens in Islam are given the greatest respect..without woman there is no man...why does Christianity not recognise the essential role of womanes like Islam does?"
If this is true, then why do your Muslim brethren treat rape victims like whores? Why does your "prophet" teach about four witnesses in the case of rape, and that the witness of two men outweigh the witness of one woman? Why does OUR traditions and culture actually TREAT women with respect and honor, while yours treat women as baby factories.
Any word of praise for women in Islam is utterly contradicted with abhorrence of them. How does a spring give both fresh water and foul water (as does your Quran, that respects AND DISrespects women at the same time). It can't, and thus your holy book is a lie.
you have proof with the Naseems, living as a muslim is like a drug addict on cocaine, kills off too many brain cells, causes muslims to be delusional, and cannot see the truth for all the lies get in their way.
Naseem-
Mary is called "the mother of God" by Christians because Jesus is considered to be the Messiah-God become flesh to speak to humans. Refering to Mary as "the mother of God" looks like respect to me. It strikes me that the only people who stayed with Jesus at the end were women (except for John). The men all denied knowing him. The women proved to have the guts and didn't back down.
Look, I must be blunt here: I am no theologian and am not qualified to answer you on these matters. All I know is that Jesus warned against deception and Muhammad was practicing deception and violence. Frankly, Muhammad leaves me with a feeling of cold bagels. Jesus is different in every way from Muhammad.
Let's leave it at that, dear.
@Naseem
Please don't ignore the questions of a faith-seeker. Please tell me "if" and "why" Allah cares so much whether I have pubic hair around my private parts, especially since I don't expose myself in public. I just don't get the religious significance of it and I think I would prefer to skip that step as it becomes very uncomfortable when the stubbles appear.
Naseem - You should know that not all who call themselves "Christian" believe the same doctrines. Some believe that Jehovah, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are a trinity God-Head with equal, but separate, existances. Some believe that Jesus Christ is subordinate to Jehovah, that he (Jesus Christ) is a creation of Jehovah, i.e., His only-begotten son, and that the holy spirit is Jehovah's impersonal force. Others believe that the nature of Mary is divine because she is the Mother of God (which assumes that Jesus is God, of course.) As with anything else, what's what depends on who you're talking to.
Assalamau Laikum yohannbiimu,
Thank you for your considered opinion.
You say "God did not BECOME the Trinity. The Trinity is WHAT GOD IS. The Trinity is WHAT GOD ALWAYS HAS BEEN. God is and has always been God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit".
You then say "It is hard for you to understand because you refuse to grasp who God is".
Well ofcourse it's hard to understand....to me this trinity setup kinda defies logic. I would have thought that God would either be "alone" or would want to portray a happy family union e.g. "man, woman and child" as a trinity.
To have a ghost as part of the trinity kind of defies logic....I mean have you not been inqusiitive and questioned that in your own mind?...It is a strange setup
Ghosts over millenia have been associated with with the dead, the spirit world and possibly evil.
Christianity has sought to present a different picture ...even by having graves in churchyards...this seems like a bizarre thing to do really...you know it defies logic....like it's OK to go to church during the day...but do you really want to walk the church yard during the night....it's got a scary feel to it...and yet it is supposed to be the house of God...again defies logic. Would you go and knock on achurch door at midnight in the dark through a graveyard? I know I don't have that problem for my Masjid in Lahore.
Come on peoples, I am really interested... enlighten me!
Come on peoples, I am really interested... enlighten me!
Peoples?
Peoples, plural with an "s" at the end?
You're vernacular is spectacular but you can't figure out the proper usage of peoples and womans?
Who do you think you're kidding?
You're not in Lahore, liar!
I don't believe you're a Muslim. Maybe you're a Zionist?
If you are a Muslim, then tell me why Allah gives a crap whether I have shaved my private parts. You also never answered me why, if masturbation is a no-no in Islam, Mohammad was nevertheless a fulltime wanker (i.e. an onanist).
Answer these questions and I'll explain the significance of the "Holy Ghost."
Naseem, it defies logic to you because you have lived your life in an inhuman, illogical system that has brainwashed you into accepting that which isn't, and reject that which is.
Naseem, are YOU alone in a sense that you have no other facets to yourself but your personality? Are you not multi-faceted as a human being, with a mind that grounds you with reality, a spirit that assures you that there is more to reality than just what you see with your eyes and feel with your hands?
Is there not many, many facets to the person you are, all of which makes you a unique person? What you have failed to grasp is that THIS is the very matter by which YOU were made in God's image.
God is not alone in a uni-faceted sense any more than you are.
Man was made with a soul, mind, and personality--all three of which are unique in all of the world. Our bodies are merely that which houses these parts of us. And just as these aspects of us are housed in ONE body, so as it is with his greatest creation (human beings), it is with the CREATOR.
Note now that GOD does not house the different (but unified) aspects of himself in a physical body. God is a spirit, and as physical beings we have no concept of what God "looks like," or how he is comprised in the sense that WE are comprised.
Look at it this way--does an ant comprehend what a human being is? Does he realize the parts of who we are, and what he is in relation to us? The same goes with human beings' understanding of who and "what" God is. We can understand that he contains different facets and aspects unified within one person, the same as people are constructed (as per our creator). If it does not fit your "logic," then it's not a matter of a flawed concept of God, but rather a flawed concept of Islamic "logic."
Also Naseem, the term "ghost" (as in "Holy Ghost") is a seventeenth century English translation of a Greek text. Another translation of it is "spirit." The 17th century definition of "ghost" and "spirit" are basically the same. "Demon" is ALSO a word given to a spirit-being, albeit one that is evil and is not operating within the will of God Almighty. Satan is also a spirit-being, as are God's angels. One can use the words "ghost" and "spirit" interchangably, in the classical sense of their meaning.
If the notion of "ghosts" scares you, then what I'm trying to explain to you is that there is a classical explaination of what a "ghost" is (simply a spirit). A "ghost" in the classical English sense does NOT mean anything harmful or scary. Every person on the face of the earth houses one within themselves. It's as simple as that.
Please allow me to repeat:
It's no more simple than Gregory M. Davis' example from yesterday. To the Christian, God is great because He is good. To the Islamist, Allah is good because he is great. There is no definition of what "good" is in regard to the Muslim god. There is nothing defining about it, apart from what attributes their "prophet" gives it.
It (their god) bestows nothing. It only demands worship, submission, and death to all who resists its demands. Read the Psalms to find the numerous aspects of God's mercy, grace, and love to all who seek Him. The difference between the God I worship and the creature that Islamists submit to is like contrasting Albert Schweitzer with Adolf Hitler.
The difference is that stark.
SHAVING FOR ALLAH, CONT.
@Naseem (or any other Muslim)
My journey to Islam is on hold, and if any Muslim is reading this, maybe they can help. As I said earlier, I can forego cold beer and even praying 5 times a day on the floor would be acceptable. Growing a beard would be uncomfortable, but I'd do it. However, I don't know how I could handle having to shave my private parts all the time. Yet it seems to be a religious commandment from Allah. Please explain. I found another Muslim asking the same-AND BOY DID HE HAVE A PROBLEM (AS YOU'LL SEE):
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=e1e41c77ffaa486803affb9fbe59b0e8
Of course, Muslims can't decide amongst themselves which God:
Sufi leader dies, sectarian violence flares up
Ummah News Links
Naseem wrote: " Come on peoples, I am really interested... enlighten me!"
In the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."
In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son.
Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270 A.D writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P. G., X, 986).
Read it here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
DebV is a Jehovah Witness, a strange cult that is not really Christian. Jehovah Witnesses have nothing in common with mainstream Christianity.
Deb V answer these questions: If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal "active force", why does he speak directly and refer to himself as "I" and "me" in Acts 13:2? If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, how could he: Be referred to as "he" and "him" in Jn 16:7- 8 and Jn 16:13-14; Bear witness (Jn 15:26, Acts 20:23); Feel hurt (Isa 63:10); Be blasphemed against (Mk 3:29, Lk 12:10); Say things (Ezek 3:24, Acts 8:29, 10:19, and Heb 10:15-17); Forbid someone to say things (Acts 16:6); Plead for us with groanings (Rom 8:26); Be tested (Acts 5:9); Send people (Acts 13:4); Be a helper (Jn 14:16, 16:7); Appoint overseers (Acts 20:28); Be outraged (Heb 10:29); Desire (Gal 5:17); Search (1Cor 2:10); Comfort (Acts 9:31); Be grieved (Eph 4:30); Be loved (Rom 15:30); Be lied to and be God (Acts 5:3-4)? What does the Bible say about those who speak against the Holy Spirit? See Mt 12:32 and Lk 12:10.
Where in the Bible does anyone count their time in preaching on a slip of paper and are assigned record cards of activity, determining this as a "gauge to their spirituality"? Where in the Bible are Pioneers, Auxiliary Pioneers, Bethelites, and Kingdom Halls? Where in the Bible does it say that anyone born after 1935 can not go to heaven, that Christians are required to attend five meetings a week, that men are prohibited from wearing beards, and that after a prophecy fails, if the prophet admits he made a mistake, he is no longer a false prophet (see Deut 18:20-22)? Where does the Bible say that a person must belong to an organization that will start in the late 19th century and be headquartered in Brooklyn, NY, in order to survive Armageddon?
I am waiting for your answer???
Deb V wrote: "The Bible NEVER teaches such a ridiculous and pagan doctrine as the trinity in the first place."
What is this Deb V?
In Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, "Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them" (emphasis added). This is a clear reference to the Holy Spirit as a personal being, not some kind of impersonal force.
John 16 refers to the Holy Spirit as a "he" ten times in a single chapter. Scripture also reveals that the Holy Spirit can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can speak (Acts 8:29; 10:19, 20; 13:2), hear (John 16:13–15), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), love (Rom. 15:30), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), and be blasphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these attributes and abilities, and only God can be blasphemed.
Naseem: I am Roman Catholic. I don't refer to the Holy Spirit as a Holy Ghost, as many Protestants strangely do. The Holy Spirit is a good spirit, not at all scary like ghosts in a graveyard at night near a church- as you described.
Here is a Roman or "Latin rite" Catholic explanation of the Trinty:
The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque).” The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: “The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at one (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one inspiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son” (Council of Florence [1439]: DS 1300-1301).
I got this quote from here:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/quizzes/trinity8.htm
Reading this thread is like being in seminary school. I had no idea there were so many religious 'experts' posting here. It reminds me of a comment made by Reverend Hensley of the Universal Life Church...'Everyone knows more about it (religion)than you do,and they will be more than happy to tell you all about it'.
This is not the site to argue the relative merits of Christianity, there are Christian sites for that...
Why bother trying to explain anything to Naseem, she never gets it...
" Narrated Abu Huraira : I heard the Prophet saying. "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." (Book #72, Hadith #779)"
LOL Huraira may have made that statement but it was the Brazilian J Sisters that made waxing the hair "down there" fashionable in the western world.
The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) is God's active force.
The real God has this active force whereas the Islamic Allah has no such thing (no wonder it has to rely so much on its followers to be doing things in its name).
Why would God demand the slaughter of the people with whom he made covenants (Jews and Christians)?
Logically, it makes no sense that Allah is God.
But, what entity would be eager to do this? Who blasphemes against God? Who seeks to destroy God’s children?
Revelation Chapter 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Who is the deceiver? Who uses lies to manipulate?
“……. Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that Allah is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.”
Who masquerades as an angel (or perhaps as God himself)?
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Who did the Christ warn us against?
Matthew Chapter 24
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew Chapter 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits….
What are the fruits of Islam? Has anyone answered the question posed by Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus?
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
Islam’s answer is violence, rage and hatred. These are Islam’s fruits!
"I don't refer to the Holy Spirit as a Holy Ghost, as many Protestants strangely do." Posted by: Johnathan
It is not strange at all considering that is how it is written in the King James Bible and that is what many of us grew up hearing in our Protestant churches.
"I can't believe any twenty first century Century Chrtistian believes in the trinity. I thought that wenty the way of purgatory, hellfire and other such dark ages medaieval doctrines.
"The Bible NEVER teaches such a ridiculous and pagan doctrine as the trinity in the first place."
Posted by: DebV
Maybe your Bible doesn't, but mine does.
I grew up in Christian churches and I can tell you that we are taught to believe in the Trinity.
Please keep your insults to yourself. You can believe whatever you like but insulting the beliefs of mainstream Christians is not the purpose of this forum.
You are entitled to believe in your church's doctrines. I am not interested in scrolling past endless messages about them on a forum that I visit to learn more about the true teachings of Islam. Perhaps you should start a website for this type of discussion. I, for one, am not interested.
If I ever become interested, I will stop and talk to the next Jehovah's Witness or whoever that I see standing on a street corner.
The Trinity is like mind body and soul, length width and height its dimentional. If there is God in heaven how can he know all if he is isolated in one place? There must be a force that lives in every atom and corner of time it self for him to know. That side is the Holy Spirit, think of it as fractile paterns. So the infinite part of God is Spirit, the Father is the information centre and creator and the Son is the represensative and the individual of the body of God.
How can you have a single God sitting in heaven without a spirit force? Something is telling it where the information to everything is it makes sense. Christ is the individual side of God and does not know everything from the father as some things are sealed up. Only because the word trinity is not used does not mean for example the word dimention does not apply to L x W x H to give you a volume.
There is no difference from your keyboard, monitor and hardrive as without one its useless.
Jonathan, you are correct. This DebV person is the one who is an apostate. There are definitely three definitive "persons" who are all what GOD is. We cannot nail down what "trinity" truely means, any more than we can nail down what a "spirit" is. For anyone to try to rationalize "God" by denying the trinity is to deny what scripture says.
When Joshua worshiped the "captain of the host of the LORD," who was he worshipping? He was worshipping GOD. Now, this person was NOT 'the LORD,' as such, because he was the captain of HIS host; however, he was GOD, because he accepted Joshua's worship, and instructed him to remove his shoes, because the ground upon he walked was 'holy.'
Your use of scripture in identifying the Holy Spirit as a seperate being (unified with God, but a seperate entity) is absolutely correct. You hold to the correct interpretation of scripture pertaining to the doctrine of the trinity. DebV is a heretic.
DO WE WORSHIP THE SAME GOD?
It shocks me that we are even "still" asking this question!
In the qu'ran ,which is claimed to be the direct words of islams satanic diety allah, he states quite clearly allah is not the God of the Jew and Christian!
Allah is not the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses And Jesus!
>>>SURAH 9-29,,Fight those people of the Book (Jews and Christians)
"""WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH"""
and the Last Day, do not refrain from what has been prohibited by Allah and His Messenger and do not embrace the religion of truth (Al-Islam), until they pay Jizya (protection tax) with their own hands and feel themselves subdued.[29]
Now my question is this. If we are not going to believe the words of islams satanic diety himself when he clearly states in his book of satanic verses that he is not the God the Jew and christians believe in and worship, then who will we believe?
Dont tell me the taqqiya practicing muslims!
shhh, dont tell the muslims, but Jesus told all mankind who allah and muhammad are!
but why are we not listening?
>>> This is a revelation from Jesus given to his diciple John of the final days of satans system on earth. this vision was given to John after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus .
revelation, {12}13, Now when the great dragon( satan) saw that it was hurled down to earth, it persecuted the woman(Israel) that gave birth to the male child(Jesus) 14.} But the two wings of the great eagle(america) were given the woman, that she may fly into the wilderness,"to her place"; there is where she is fed for a time, a times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.
{15},And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth( lies, deciet, and blasphemy,) after the woman to cause her to be drowned by the river(of lies, deciet and blasphemy).{16},But the earth came to the womans help,and swallowed up the river that the dragon ( satan) disgorged from its mouth.{17},And the dragon( satan) grew wrathful at the woman,and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed( christians) who observe the comandments of god and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus The Christ.
{13}, And it stood still upon the sands of the sea.
And i saw a wild beast(islam) asending out of the sea,with ten horns and seven heads,and upon its horns 10 diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names( allah has 99 blasphemous names)
2} now the wild beast that i saw was like a leapord,but its feet were those of a bear and its mouth was a lions mouth. And the dragon(satan) gave to the beast(islam) its power, its throne and great authority.3},And i saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death,but its death stroke got healed,and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration(the ottoman empire??)4} And they worshipped the dragon(satan) because it gave the authority to the wild beast(islam) and they worship the wild beast with the words;"who is like the wild beast and who can do battle with it?" ( these are the words of islam today, they state matter of factly "no one can defeat islam!!" and "islam will rule the earth!!")
5}, And a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemies was given it,and authority to act 42 months was given it.6} and it opened its mouth in blasphemies against god, to blaspheme his name and his residence and even those who Are residing in heaven.( muslims claim Jesus was a muslim and worshipped this false pagan moon god allah)7}, And there was granted to it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them and authority was given it over every tribe, people, tongue and nation.
8},And all those who dwell on the eath will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the lamb(Jesus)who was slaughtered from the founding of the world.
16},And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great,the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or their foreheads.( this mark is visible on muslims foreheads where they bang their heads on the ground in prayer, screaming allahu akbar and the callouses on their hands from prostating to the false pagan god allah)
17}, And that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having either the mark,the name of the wild beast,or the number of its name.( muslims have practiced this from the days of muhammad ,its called dhimmitude)18}, Here is where wisdom comes in; let the one who has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast(islam) for it is a mans number and its number is six hundred and sixty six.
I write this in hopes it will awaken you to the dangers we face today and to show you who the enemy of God and Jesus and all those who worship God and follow the instructions of his beloved son Jesus is.
Jesus informed us that you will know the tree by its fruits. And he has warned us in the verses of revelation ive quoted above that satan will have an "organization"(the wild beast) on earth in the final days of satans system on this earth. The agenda of this organization is to destroy israel, attack and slaugher Jews and Christians who refuse to submit to "the god"(allah) of the wild beast(islam).
There is such an organization on Gods earth today whose agenda is exactly that of the wild beast and that is "islam", there are its fruits, then know its tree. The tree is satan, its beast is islam and its fruits is to destroy Israel, attack and slaughter jews and christians who refuse to submit to "the god"(allah) of islam (the beast)
In the 18th verse of the 12th chapter of revelation jesus said ,"let he who has" intelligence "calculate the number of the beast". I dont claim to be the most intelligent man on earth but with the clues Jesus gave its quite easy to calculate.
The number is a mans number, and all renown men of history are remembered by the date of their death. muhammad died exactly 666 years after jesus was born.You do the calculation
33bc--0--632ce
33-- 1--632
34 + 632 =666 years
The number of the man matchs the the number of the wild beast
the number of the wild beast along with the agenda of the wild beast points clearly to islam as the organization raised up by satan in the final days of satans system on earth today!
Now im not saying all muslims are evil and wicked, but i am saying all muslims are decieved by satan into believing they are worshipping the god of abraham, and they were misled by one of the greatest liars of all men ,muhammad!
interestering:
satan (allah) will be given 42 months to act!
1967 allahs beast attacked israel with the intent of finally destroying israel slaughtering and subduing the Jews!
1967
+42
= 2009
And the beast with all its armys will gather in the valley of meggido (harmageddon) to wage war on the woman that bore the male child!
ahhh, Naseem my lost and decieved litle brother.
permit me, if you will to guide you into the light.
allah has created a terrible dilema for himself!
for although allah claims he has no son and is the father of none. in surah 66_12 we have allah declaring:
>>>SURAH 66-12-Another example is in the life of Mary, the daughter of `ImrAn, who guarded her chastity, and into whose womb We breathed of Our spirit, who testified to the words of her Lord, and His scriptures, and was one of the obedient.
"into whose womb we(allah) breathed of our
(allahs)spirit!"
Now brother naseem, the question becomes. If as allah claims all he needs do to create life is utter the word "be" and allah creates life.
what is the purpose of allah breathing of the spirit(ruh) of allah into a virgins womb?
in arabic the word translated to womb is "ferjarah" which means (private parts)!
Islam claims Jesus is a Prophet of allah!
Jesus taught his followers and deciples to pray in this manner, "Our Father" !
allah has no son and is the father of none!
satan has no son and is the father of none!
do you see the resemblence brother naseem?
The Beast in Action
John Wesley (1703-91) wrote,
"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind".
Ynkedoodl2 - Amazing. Thank you.
Naseem,
I doubt you are reading this, but just in case...
I am proud of you that you not only recognize but also argue that Allah and Yahweh are not the same. That is a major advance for you.
However, your logic is fatally flawed. You cannot compare two competing views, choose one as the standard without explaining your choice, and then use it to refute the other.
Can you not see the difference....even from this simple argument we CAN infer that the bible has unfortunately been corrupted.
Actually, your Qur'an supports usage of the Injeel and the Torat. Sahih ahadith do as well. It was not until the time of Ibn Hazm that these texts were seen as tahrif (corrupted) as opposed to "misinterpreted". Archaelology supports the versions of texts retained by the Hebrews and Christians (with minor textual variations such as differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts of the Tanakh), with no extant texts prior to Mohammad that support his claims of originality.
You perform the above exercise (nonauthoritative claim of refutation) again. Your argument does not progress for the same reason.
You ask for JW/DW posters to enlighten you. They cannot. God does the enlightening. That is why you don't get it. Even if you find yourself "seeking Him with all your heart", it is still His causing you to desire this.
You are not morally free to pursue all courses. You are a "free moral agent", only able to make the choices of which you have requisite information (i.e. cognizance) to make.
Your enlightening moment, if it ever comes, will look like this:
You are incapable of pleasing a perfect and infinitely holy God, because all of your works are flawed in some way, no matter how small, and even if they weren't, you motives for performing them would be. Your sins of ommission and commision do not disappear, they stand forever as an afront to God, unless they are atoned, something you, being flawed are incapable of doing. They cannot merely be cancelled out by better, still flawed works.
You need help...
JW/DWers here (including me) will provide you with conflicting views of theology, based on differences in education, background, associations, etc., and just because it is difficult to trivialize topics you admit are "complicated". You will have to research these things yourself.
I have offered you this before (as have others), but you should read Athanasius, On the Incarnation. At least you will have a traditional understanding of the Trinity.
I could not find a listing for Durie's book on bn.com either. If anybody knows where I can find a listing for Durie's book, please tell me what web page to look in.
Here is the only link I can find
http://shop.cityharvest.org.au/index.php?main_page=pubs_product_book_info&products_id=100