Dinesh D'Souza: "It's foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years"

Dinesh D'Souza has written a spectacularly wrongheaded and potentially immensely damaging new book, The Enemy At Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11, in which he argues essentially that the jihadists hate us because we are immoral. It is, of course, already getting lavish attention from those who, out of political correctness and fear, as well as a miscalculation of the most effective ways to deal with the problem we face, have steadily ignored the jihad ideology and its influence among those who are waging war against the U.S. and its allies.

D'Souza showed up in a National Review Q & A with Kathryn Lopez yesterday, wherein he breezily discounted the possibility that they hate us because of imperatives arising from within the Islamic religion.

Lopez: On Islam: It has been argued that the Koran itself is violent. That moderate Muslims, in fact, have to distance themselves from more than Osama bin Laden. Is it possible that you are part of the not-understanding-the-threat-we-face problem by suggesting that line of examination be shut down?

D'Souza: I'm not urging that any line of inquiry be "shut down."

It's ironic that this question would even have been asked and answered, since, with the notable and noble exception of the articles of Andrew McCarthy, this line of inquiry has effectively been shut down at National Review. For reasons I do not know, after my 2005 skirmish with Rich Lowry over J. L. Menezes' book on Muhammad, NR has tended to shy away from considering the possibility that there might be something within Islam that fuels jihad terror -- Lowry, if I understand him correctly, thinks (as does D'Souza -- see below) that to do so alienates moderates. This is ironic, however, because by declining, at least so far, to enter into this discussion they cut the ground out from under those moderates, by pretending that nothing in Islam actually needs reform.

I'd like to invite Kathryn Lopez and NR to take D'Souza's words to heart and not shut down this line of inquiry. I'd be happy to debate D'Souza in the pages of National Review or at NRO on whether or not there is something about Islam that fuels today's jihad violence, and whether our immorality is the paramount cause of jihad. I contend that, pace D'Souza, that we could be the most moral people on earth and the jihad would continue nevertheless. The Qur'an (9:29) directs Muslims to fight Jews and Christians, not just immoral Jews and Christians. What has changed in the last 25 years is the material ability of Muslims to pursue the jihad imperative.

After all, Egyptian jihad theorist Sayyid Qutb was enraged by the immorality of the dancing at a church social in Colorado in the late 1940s; how immoral do you think that dancing really was, compared to today's standards? Yet despite its relative innocuousness, it still enraged him. He would not have been pacified by anything short of full Islamic separation of the sexes, and the covering of women. In other words, he would not have been satisfied by anything short of our islamization.

D'Souza continues:

I'm saying it's foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years.

I expect in this D'Souza is dating the beginning of Islamic terrorism to the Khomeini revolution in Iran in 1979. This suggests that he does not regard the relentless jihad against Israel as "Islamic terrorism"; that he doesn't regard the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood, the direct forerunner of Hamas and Al-Qaeda, in Egypt in 1928 as having anything to do with "Islamic terrorism"; and that he either doesn't know or care that the ideology held by Osama bin Laden and other jihad terrorists today is identical to that held by jihad armies of the past, which overwhelmed and islamized the Middle East, North Africa, Persia, and significant portions of Europe and Asia.

So is it even reasonable to blame Mohammad or the Koran? I realize that you can fish out this passage or that passage and make it sound like the Muslims want to convert or kill everybody. But that would be like taking passages out of the Old Testament to make Moses sound like Hitler.

Would it really? The question here is who is doing the fishing. D'Souza refers to Osama's communiques -- what about all the Qur'an quotes in them? Here's the one from November 24, 2002. Lots of Qur'an in it. As I have pointed out many, many times, jihadists quote Qur'an and Hadith copiously, and portray themselves as the exponents of "pure Islam." It is not "Islamophobes" who are "fish[ing] out this passage or that passage," it is the jihadists. Are we to avoid examining this phenomenon and discussing its implications because of fear of "blam[ing] blame Mohammad or the Koran"? Would it not be more prudent to explore it and try to formulate positive ways to deal with it?

After all, there is no body of Jews corresponding to the Islamic jihadists, quoting the Old Testament to justify Hitlerian genocide. And that's why D'Souza's analogy fails utterly.

And also, Muslims don't want to "convert or kill everybody." That is a false oversimplification. Muhammad commanded Muslims to convert or subjugate or kill everybody. And that explains much of what D'Souza brings up next:

Besides, you have to look at what the Islamic empires actually did. There were Christians and Jews who lived under the various Muslim dynasties, from the Abbasid to the Ottoman. In fact, Jews were much safer in the Ottoman empire than in just about any of the Christian kingdoms, such as that of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain.

In fact, Jews as dhimmis were in Ottoman domains subjugated as dhimmis. D'Souza's contention that "Jews were much safer in the Ottoman empire than in just about any of the Christian kingdoms" is flatly false. That's why 17 million Jews were in Europe at the dawn of the twentieth century, and only one million in Islamic lands.

D'Souza continues:

So we have to be careful about simply describing a religion of one billion people as "violent." This would be tactically imprudent even if it were true, but it is not true, so why repeat a canard that has the terrible effect of driving the traditional Muslims into the radical camp?

Although this idea is taken for granted by most analysts, no one has ever yet explained to me why describing Islam as containing elements that incite to violence will make otherwise peaceful Muslims become violent or begin to condone religious violence. Why wouldn't it lead them to begin much more active reform efforts? D'Souza thinks talking about the elements of Islam that give rise to violence is "tactically imprudent"; I think his avoiding doing so is tactically disastrous. He wants to foster the growth of an Islam that accepts the idea of Muslims coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims by ignoring the elements of Islam that make this increasingly difficult in the modern world. Yet while D'Souza is calling upon us to ignore these elements of Islam, jihad terrorists are not ignoring them. They continue to use them to recruit and motivate terrorists. Thus in reality the only viable way to encourage moderate Muslims is to help them confront and reject these elements of Islam, so as to forestall such recruitment.

So how about it, Ms. Lopez? Mr. D'Souza? I am up for a debate anytime you're ready.

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123 Comments

When will we hate them more than we hate ourselves?

Robert,

This Dinesh D'Souza was on The Colbert Report on Comedy Central yesterday and it made me utterly sick. He couldn't have been more wrong about what he was saying. You might be able to watch it on youtube.com or something like that. It was despicable. However, your posting just shows how much knowledge you have on this subject and how little Ms. Lopez or Mr. D'Souza. Maybe you and Hugh can do something like a tag-team debate on these two boneheads.

Cordially,
Patriot_1/17

Patriot:

They aren't boneheads by any means. In any case, I very much doubt they will agree to debate in NR -- I may get a chance to debate Mr. D'Souza elsewhere.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

There should be a new category of dhimmwits called:

"Religious Relativists"

The religious relativist believes that Moslems are just basically Jews with different colored yarmulkas on. See the beard? See the fasting? See the communal prayers?

Moslems do act a little Jewish when they are in the minority. But as their numbers increase, well...

COMETH THE BEAST!

I also saw D'Souza on Colbert last night and he referred to the West's culpability in 9/11 by tracing it back to the 1979 Iranian revolution. His view seemed to be that Americans helped the Iranian revolution along by deciding to withdraw support from the Shah. We decided he wasn't good enough for us, only to find that the cure for the Shah's despotism was worse than the disease. In so doing, we (Jimmy Carter) unleashed a violent movement in and on the Islamic world. (Colbert didn't let him finish his argument, but went off in another direction.)
How do we argue with that? The Left complains that we support "right wing dictators", but whom do they support? Left wing dictators.
The difference is that the RWDs didn't seek our destruction and they weren't theocrats, unlike the LWD.
D'Souza is going to be on C-SPAN2's "In Depth" for three hours the first Sunday in February. Should be interesting.

Two questions I would like to ask Mr. D'Souza if I had the chance: (1)Which Islamic country would he, as a Catholic, like to live in on a full-time permanent basis? (2) I concede the that Western morals are lax, yet why do Muslims rape nuns in Egypt, behead Orthodox priests in Iraq and kill Catholic monks in Lebanon? Those people, whose lives were lived in the East, not the West, were also leading moral lives and yet suffered in the name of Islam.

I would like to believe that the majority of people who preach the peaceful nature of Islam are doing so in good faith, but the more I read and learn, the more it sounds like dangerous ignorance and escapism.

The comment: "Jews were much safer in the Ottoman empire than in just about any of the Christian kingdoms" -- Martin Kramer in his text Islamic Imperialism has a nice rejoinder -- I don't have the exact reference at hand -- but Kramer says it's always very easy to have "moderns" speaking on behalf of the subjects of Ottoman tyranny and exclaiming about what a fine time was had by all -- but the actual victims of the Ottoman Empire (now dead) may have a very different tale to tell.

J.S.

Islamic Imperialism is by Efraim Karsh, not Martin Kramer.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2

Moslems do act a little Jewish when they are in the minority. But as their numbers increase, well...

THIS COULD EXPLAIN WHY

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/

Anybody remember the Ionesco play "THE RHINOCEROS"? It was supposedly about Nazis, but maybe Ionesco was on to something bigger.

In Ionesco's theatre of the absurd piece, a nice little European capital experiences a growing phenomenon of rampaging rhinoceroses. Nobody sees a thing even as the situation becomes absurdly unavoidable.

Time to re-read this play.

"I’m saying it’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years".

How can someone of his stature say something so blatantly ridiculous? I'd expect this from one of the peaceful ones or one of their lapdogs but this guy really should know better. Does he really believe that Islam was all peace and niceness for 1275 years and then all of a sudden it turned evil? Apalling to say the least.

Ynkedoodl2:

My comments in this FrontPage symposium may interest you:

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25240

And your point is well taken. I would have thought D'Souza, especially after making the excellent point that freedom is an essential prerequisite for genuine morality, and hence the Islamic world is not as moral as it would like to think it is, would have been one of the last rhinoceri. Alas, I was wrong.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Yes! Quite right, it's Karsh --not Kramer (I don't have the text at hand) -- old age, sigh...

Oh, btw, did you hear about the "reform" and "secularism" of Islam meeting to take place? It was mentioned on Glenn Beck the other night.

Yeah, those Russian schoolchildren were really asking for it weren't they.

"On March 4-5, 2007, the first ever Secular Islam Summit will convene in St. Petersburg Florida." from secularislam.org

I once thought very highly of Mr D'Souza back in the 90s when he was repudiating multuculturalism. God, what a disappointment he turned out to be.

The Mughals ruled northern India for 200 years. They could have forcibly converted the Hindus or killed all of them. But they did no such thing.

COMPLETE FUCKIN' NONSENSE!

The Mughals tried their best to bring India into Dar-ul-Islam. They did all they could - impose jizya, destroy temples, slaughter and behead noncombatatants and forcibly convert them into Islam - but they have failed miserably! This is despite all the bloodshed and misery brought upon the Hindus.

It is wishful thinking to assume that if Muslims had so desired, they could've really finished off (converted) the Hindus. They (Muslims) were here for 800 years (beware of misinformation folks... the Left thrives on misinformation... India was under Muslim rule for 800 years with the Mughals having a share of about 350 years i.e., from the First Battle Of Panipat (1526 CE) to the 1857 War Of Independance), tried really very hard to convert all Hindus but failed miserably. It must be one of the biggest failed conversion programs ever, something that Islamists simply cannot digest because everytime they think about it, it hits them hard in the groin, with the force of a 500 pound sand bag dropping from the 10th floor of a building.

They keep sending that Saudi petrodollar funded Islamist pig shit to bomb Indian cities in their quest to bring India under the Dar-ul-Islam because they are oblivious to the fact that they FAILED MISERABLY to convert the resilient Hindu for 800 years.

The time is coming when the world will break the back of the evil of Islamism forever. No more compulsory burkas, no more death fatwas, no more head severing, no more hand chopping, no more suicide bombing. The filth that Islamism brought into the world will be washed away until it meets and mixes with the sludge in the local sewer, which is its rightful place.

God help us!
An Indian and a Hindu.

HA! HA!

Islam was a problem SINCE MARCH, 624 SO WHAT IS THIS MUSLIM BASTARD TRYING TO SAY?!?
It all started with the first caravan attack on a Meccan convoy.
Where does the moron get the last 25 years being a problem?
What about the problems attacking the Armenians in the 8th century?
What about the attacks on the Byzantine Empire in 674 and 718?
What about the attacks on Jerusalem, Egypt, Carthage?
What about the invasions of Western Europe in 711 while the muslim occupation lasted 400 years before Europe got its head out of its butt and launched a counteroffensive that free that region?
What about the muslim occupation of southern Europe in the 1500's that lasted until the 1600's?
ISLAM HAS BEEN A PROBLEM AND CURSE ON THE PLANET SINCE THE 7TH CENTURY AND NOT THE LAST 25 YEARS!!
This guy should not try to tell the muslims have only been a problem for 2 decades because the history books tell me they have been a disease on humanity for 13 centuries.

I guess 25 years of terrorism includes almost a 100 years ago when Lawrence of Arabia wearing turbans as if Muslims caught him they would have chopped his head off and includes 500 years ago when Muslims were poisoning water with WMD's to kill Crusaders.
Yup just a 25 year old problem.....

I can't get a publisher, but a nitwit can lol.

"On March 4-5, 2007, the first ever Secular Islam Summit will convene in St. Petersburg Florida." from secularislam.org

Posted by: J.S. at January 17, 2007 01:41 PM

Hopefully, it will be the last one as well, with all the attendees of this one either deported or in jail (where many of them most likely belong).

"On March 4-5, 2007, the first ever Secular Islam Summit will convene in St. Petersburg Florida." from secularislam.org

Posted by: J.S. at January 17, 2007 01:41 PM

Hopefully, it will be the last one as well, with all the attendees of this one either deported or in jail (where many of them most likely belong).

D'Souza continues:
"I’m saying it’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years."

25 minutes of existence is too long to have to deal with the "problem" of Islamic terrorism, in my opinion.


"In Ionesco's theatre of the absurd piece, a nice little European capital experiences a growing phenomenon of rampaging rhinoceroses. Nobody sees a thing even as the situation becomes absurdly unavoidable."
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at January 17, 2007 01:33 PM

Ynkedoodl2,
I never read that play, but it sure mirrors the fact that Islam appears to be the "giant pink elephant" in the middle of the room that no one wants to talk about.


"Oh, btw, did you hear about the "reform" and "secularism" of Islam meeting to take place? It was mentioned on Glenn Beck the other night."
Posted by: J.S. at January 17, 2007 01:38 PM

J.S.,
Yes, I did, and I look forward to all 40 or so participants in it. Maybe 50 if Beck himself takes the nice lady up on her offer to attend.

D'Souza continues:
"I’m saying it’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years."

25 minutes of existence is too long to have to deal with the "problem" of Islamic terrorism, in my opinion.


"In Ionesco's theatre of the absurd piece, a nice little European capital experiences a growing phenomenon of rampaging rhinoceroses. Nobody sees a thing even as the situation becomes absurdly unavoidable."
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at January 17, 2007 01:33 PM

Ynkedoodl2,
I never read that play, but it sure mirrors the fact that Islam appears to be the "giant pink elephant" in the middle of the room that no one wants to talk about.


"Oh, btw, did you hear about the "reform" and "secularism" of Islam meeting to take place? It was mentioned on Glenn Beck the other night."
Posted by: J.S. at January 17, 2007 01:38 PM

J.S.,
Yes, I did, and I look forward to all 40 or so participants in it. Maybe 50 if Beck himself takes the nice lady up on her offer to attend.

Thanks Robert for another good exhaustive write-up to expose the "tiny minority" deception broadcast over and over again. A timely article too since earlier today I had been researching the effects a politically correct language in society. I recommend the site History of Jihad to other readers in response to the nothing-wrong-with-Islam crowd.

Also relevant:

How Many Islamists?

Major Religions of the World

Want to really quantify Islam's aggression? Islam the Religion of Peace believe it or else.

It is surly not the fault of the cultural left for Islamic terrorism but I still blame them for their delusional belief that Christians and conservatives are a bigger threat to them. They don't even get that we are fighting for, among other things, the right for them to even exist. They should learn a little about just how much gays and women are prospering all over the Islamic world.

Awake,

40 attendees?!! wow, that's a lot (just joking)...Yeah, I think they'll get about 10 speakers and the audience will be all non-Muslims. The ones most anxious to hear about "reformed Islam" are non-Muslims...(not Muslims)...that's my take. But, you know, it's a start...

Robert again hits the nail squarely on the head. While pessimistic about the possibility, I hope that the NR folks take up his challenge of a public debate.

I’m saying it’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years.

I spent all that money on his book and now I find out that Dr. Bostom is a big fat liar.

I sincerely wish D'souza would have guts to face Spencer. It is interesting to see how politicians and their stooges are fighting each other just to grab power or headlines or attention while the medieval values are threatening the free world.

This D'Souza is a world-champion in shallowness. Don't bother, he doesn't deserve the light of day.

CNN is much more damaging: Christiane Amanpour, one who really should have learned a few lessons by now. Instead, she still peddles the same BS and keeps asking Islamic 'scholars' - instead of reading the Koran herself.

What a disaster - ruined a perfectly good dinner.

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/01/17/is-cnns-christiane-amanpour-on-the-take-also/

Maybe D'Souza's right, maybe we should start blaming dhimmis like him who enable the bloodshed to continue without blame. The muhajideen are just doing what the deathcult tells them. But all too many Westerners who should know better, turn a blind eye or even rationalize the barbaric behavior of terrorists. As a result, those of us who do know better are forced to live in a world that is a lot less safe. Partly due to the drivel of leaders and pundits who can't (or won't) connect the dots.

An islamist cheerleader.
How long has slavery existed in the world? What, longer than 1300 years you say? Well who are we to denounce an institution that has those credentials?

he Enemy At Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11, in which he argues essentially that the jihadists hate us because we are immoral.


And just exactly HOW are WE immoral? Immoral compared to THEM???!!!!

Puhleez..

And WHAT IF WE ARE? They do NOT have to live among us.

GTFO. And goodbye.

Dinesh D'Souza: "It’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years"


Oh I had no idea they killed the Jews of Khaybar a mere 25 years ago. Maybe I need to go to college like this Dinesh fellow here.

D'Souza:

So we have to be careful about simply describing a religion of one billion people as “violent.” This would be tactically imprudent even if it were true, but it is not true, so why repeat a canard that has the terrible effect of driving the traditional Muslims into the radical camp?

Tactically imprudent *even if* it were true? So basically he is telling us to lay down and give up! He KNOWS it's true.

The sooner we label it for what it is - the sooner we can take effective measures to protect ourselves from this menace.

I think that I have a miserable knowledge of our history, but I am still amazed at how much less others know. Over 200 years ago our nation paid millions in "tribute" to the Islamic Ottoman Empire, to keep their terrorist/pirates from attacking US interests abroad. This was a problem that Jefferson inherited when he took office. It was also our 1st war abroad and it gave rise to the part of the Marine Hymn "shores of Tripoli" I wrote a bit more about it in a post I titled Jefferson's Koran.

There are a few more links in the post, but really just Google Barbary Powers, Barbary Pirates. And as you are reading the stories that claim these guys were just pirates, ask yourself this: If these guys were just pirates then why did we pay tribute to the Ottoman Sultan to keep them at bay?

Convert, pay tribute, or fight. I'm glad Jefferson chose to fight. Wish more people made that choice today.

Yeah, those Russian schoolchildren were really asking for it weren't they.
Posted by: Celsius


Those immoral Russian kids. /sarc off

s_sgt7,

you're absolutely correct: "Until the pigs decide not to behave like pigs - that is when things will change."

The secular Islam conference will include speakers such as Ibn Warraq (author of the "Why I am not a Muslim"), along with other critics of Islamic practices...(http://secularislam.org/blog/post/summit/3/Speakers)

I think Dinesh D'Souza should be in the audience -- maybe he might learn something...then, again, he's probably already been bought 'n paid for by the Saudis.

D'Souza: "The traditional Muslims are our best bet. Besides, they’re not asking us to live like them. They’re asking us not to attack their religion, which conservatives do with depressing regularity. They’re asking us not to force secularism and separation of church and state on their society, another foolish cause to which some conservatives subscribe. And they would feel a lot better about America if they could see the “other” America, which is say, Red America, the America they don’t see on television, where people go to work and look after their families and subscribe to traditional values and go to church. Bush should project more of this America to the rest of the world, especially to the traditional cultures of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East."

So, if the Christian Conservatives and Neo-Cons would just align themselves with traditional Islam, peace and harmony will reign?

The placations of Uriah Heep come to mind. Traditional Muslims will stop attacking Christians in Colombia, Turkey, India and Indonesia? Algeria, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other Islamic-dominated nations will stop killing and imprisoning Christians?

No, traditional Islam will allow no such tolerance of Christianity. Only Islam will reign supreme. The religious preferences and individual liberties of Christians in hostile, Islamic countries will continue to deprive non-Muslims of their rights to practice any religion but Islam.

D'Souza knows this. He is simply hoping that NR and the rest of the conservatives and Christians in America are so misinformed. His lip service to tolerance and shared ground with Christianity is an olive branch in the end of a rifle. Take the olive branch and the gun remains.

The separation of Islam from its status as a religion should be established. Islam is an anathema to American democracy and religious freedom. Like a thistle it chokes out all other religions wherever it transplants itself.

Terrorism, as the word is commonly used in contemporary parlance, was not a tool available to Islamists until recently.

1300 years ago, you couldn't fly jets into buildings hoping to get footage of it that would send shockwaves throughout the world, while having the most influential "intellectuals" blame the victims for provoking you, and being able to count on all of Europe to send out subtle and not-so-subtle messages saying, in effect, "We hate them as much as you do. Spare us!", nor did you have a billion frustrated coreligionists nursing the wounds of chronic failure in a world they once dominated.

You did have horses and swords, poisons, ships, arrows, spears, all that good stuff, which you were only to happy to use subjegating half the planet in about a week and a half.

You go to Jihad with the weapons that work, not the weapons your enemies wish you used.

This immorality bit really GALLS me! Who are THEY to tel US about morality?! We do not want or need them in our lands.. We support them in too many ways.. WE send the money and physical aid to THEIR earthquake and tsunami-stricken areas - INSPITE of their continuing hostility and violence toward us. And they DARE label US immoral?!

The fat SOWdis didn't give nearly a dime for in disater aid. I am sure the bin Laden family is way to busy trying to buy WMD for them to be bothered releasing funds for disaster relief.

Western countries have so far been giving money to the "palestinians" and this mornign I heard them on NPR bleating about the lack of aid from us.

Why don't their moslem brothers the SOWdis step in and pay them aid?!

oh NO.. they'd much rather spend their money on mosks and on madrazas in OUR COUNTRIES while WE spend OUR money on feeding the "palestinians". so ultimately our "immoral" selves lose doubly in this little gambit.

THE ONLY THING THAT IS IMMORAL HERE IS THE ABJECT AND CYNICAL EXPLOITATION OF OUR **MORALITY**

THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO BUSINESS CALLING US IMMORAL!!

And by the way.. I find THEM immoral. But unlike them I don't care what they do - at home in their countries.

Furthermore - we HAVE the right to be as immoral in our countries as we want to be. We will hash out our acceptance of immorality in our societies amongst ourselves, thank you very much!

MoFoes do NOT define our morality!!!

Correction to: "The religious preferences and individual liberties of Christians in hostile, Islamic countries will continue to deprive non-Muslims of their rights to practice any religion but Islam."

The religious preferences and individual liberties of Christians in hostile, Islamic countries will continue to be deprived simply because they are non-Muslim. Traditional Muslims in these countries do very little to tolerant or defend the religious freedoms or liberties of any non-Muslims.

I used to respect Dinesh D'Souza on some issues. Still do actually. But this doesn't sound like the D'Souza I used to know at all. Especially this:

"I'm saying it's foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years."

Incredible!

First of all, Dinesh is an Indian , Goan Catholic and most important - he is a Marxist. Needless to say, Red and Green are strange bedfellows. The Marxists support the Islamists - wait till the Islamists get you.

About "The Mughals ruled northern India for 200 years. They could have forcibly converted the Hindus or killed all of them. But they did no such thing."

It has to be noted that the darkest chapters of Indian History was when it was under Islamic rule - however much the Indian History texts written by JNU's Marxist historians would want us to think that "Islam contributed a lot to Indian culture" - Pig shit and bo**kks ...

What part of Indian History did you selectively forget Dinesh ?

Aurangzeb massacering Hindus ? Ethnic cleanisng of Pundits for the last 4 centuries in Kashmir ? Conversion of Hindus in Coorg and Kerala by the Moslem Bastard Tipu ? What more do you need as proof ? How many temples were razed to the ground every year under Aurangzed the 'Zind Pir [Live Saint to the Muslims ]' but worse than Dracula to us the Hindus. The demand by INdian HIndus to get back just 3 of those temples which have been taken away - Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura has caused such hue and cry amongst the communists and islamists .....

What Aurang could not do in his life, Manmohan Khan and Sonia Begum could well achieve - the annihilation of Hindus.

---

If they don't like infidel immorality in infidel lands then get the hell out. Go home to the ummah and rape 9 year olds and goats-we won't mind.

Snippet,

Efraim Karsh (in the text, *Islamic Imperialism*) makes the point that throughout Islam's long imperialist history -- they have used terrorist tactics against any enemy (this frequently included other Muslims, btw). They would terrorize -- deliberately employ brutal means to frighten people and get them to comply. (I don't have the text at hand -- but some of the sadistic, gruesome things which were done -- it went way, way beyond merely "kill the enemy." But the sadistic use of force was all done with the aim to subdue "enemies" -- and sanctioned by Koranic verses.) thus, terrorism is not something "new." Also note, it worked way back then, and it appears to be working today (we get the Dhimmis like that CNN Amanpour, and D'Souza, zillions others -- all mindlessly mouthing the platitudes of islam).

(abbreviated) Verse of the Sword, slay them where you can find them. They say the same thing every time from 633 AD to the present.

Leftists conclude they must not mean it. Why? Because leftists don't believe in anything. What is said every time, must be for the masses to be fooled by, which it is in Leftism.

Having no real faith or loyalty, the Left can't understand it in others.

There's no history like revisionist history these days.

People these days are like sheep allowing themselves to be walked to their slaughter.

We have had all sorts of freedoms that were earned by blood of hero's from our past, and now we want to surrender them and look for comfort in those who offer us a good side to the enemy. Here's a quote from a recent article written by Professor Victor Davis Hanson, I highly suggest looking up the article and reading it. It's titled "Traitors to the Enlightenment".

"But now all that hard-won effort of some 2,500 years is at risk. The new enemies of Reason are not the enraged democrats who executed Socrates, the Christian zealots who persecuted philosophers of heliocentricity, or the Nazis who burned books. No, they are a pampered and scared Western public that caves to barbarism — dwarves who sit on the shoulders of dead giants, and believe that their present exalted position is somehow related to their own cowardly sense of accommodation."

Mr. D'Souza is exactly one of those dwarves who's sitting on the shoulders of dead giants, he is a traitor to his people and of civilization.

Niv

Also, you don't need an airplane flying into a building to create terror -- and in Iraq all that's required is a hand drill. Wouldn't it be easier to just outright kill your victim?? But, OH NO, that would not instill terror into others. It's not about killing per se, it's about instilling fear (such as through drilling random holes into living bodies -- now that's Islam).

so why repeat a canard that has the terrible effect of driving the traditional Muslims into the radical camp

This statement should be directed primarily at radical Muslim clerics....the canards they're repeating have far more "terrible effect of driving the traditional Muslims into the radical camp" than anything non-Muslims have to say. Even so, it's a bit condescending for D'Souza to suggest Muslims resort to radicalism simply because they can't take the heat of criticism from non-Muslims. Like Robert pointed out, Sayyid Qutb was never short of criticism against America, which did little to affect American way of life, but did more to affect (or rather create) his way of life and those of his followers. That said, I did like what D'Souza said in the rest of the interview.

Dinesh D'Souza's claim that Jihad is founded in non-Muslim "immorality" may be one of the rationalizations given by Muslims for Jihad, but "immorality" is also a complaint (particularly re "Hollywood" and the "media") of many non-Muslims in the West, and they don't engage in violence at the level of Jihad.

Meanwhile, in India, the Philippines, Thailand and Darfur, among the places, people are impacted by the immorality of Islam. The issue is not 25 years old, but over a 1,000 years in process; the 21st century is where the issue is going to come to a head, a conclusion one way or the other.

If I remember correctly, D'Souza was an imortant guy in the Reagan Administration, but I don't think he's much of an expert on Islam. Robert knows what he's talking about on this issue and in any debate Robert will have D'Souza's breakfast, lunch and dinner.

25 years? I don't understand, the dems claim it only began after Bush became President :P Oh well, 25 years, give or take another 1400, who's counting? It's the future years of it's existance that matter. They can revise history, lie about the past, as long as they can't shape the future, that is what matters.

There are some conservatives who are like Dinesh D'Souza. They think that Islam like all religions is good. That to become more moral and religious is a good idea no matter what. In some ways these people want to use the conflict with Islam as their way to get what they want. The "moral war" is more important then the war with Islam.

They just don't understand how dangerous this is. Worst yet they then split us up and divide us by attacking all those considered immoral. I have met people I do not agree with from the left who understand the dangers Islam presents to our civilization better then these moral conservatives. I would rather be with them because at least they get it. We fight each other on all sorts of stupid issues but in the end we know what is more important.

I tell you Mr. Spencer it worries me that the Republican Party has this weight around its neck. I am sure you have met many like Dinesh D'Souza who push this view and the leadership seems to love it. It will be our doom.

Really the question comes to this: Can we reform our own political parties from within to see the threat or are we going to have to form our own political party that unifies and does not divide.

We must to defeat the threat of Islamic expansion.

Patriot:

They aren't boneheads by any means. In any case, I very much doubt they will agree to debate in NR -- I may get a chance to debate Mr. D'Souza elsewhere.


They aren't boneheads they're eggheads. Either way - bad for us. Anyone who obscures reality stands in the way of the cure.

Too bad islamic "immigrants" don't come with warning stickers like cigarettes do.

Since I see a few people who know about Indian History here in this thread.. may I ask this question even if it may be a bit off-topic?

Why is Arundhati Roy so vehmently anti-Hindu and so very pro-Moslem? I don;t quite get it. She seems quite the feminist and libertarian. Two things that don't sit quite well with islamos.

Is she of their religious background? It would seem strange - given her attire from what little I've seen of her. She's definitely the darling of the liberal artsy third-worldy crowd over here in the States and is it that she may be catering to them for bucks for books?

MeanieMo!

Correct!

Our immoral society has developed more on our pinky finger then anything this supposed moral religion known as Islam ever did. I am tired of this silly argument made by some in the right. That Muslims attack us because American girls go to clubs, under age drinking, and sex before marriage. I don't agree with all this supposed immorality but hell we westerners have always been immoral in the eyes of Muslims. It is almost like some of these so called moral conservatives get off on Islam and somewhere deep down like it. They want to go back to the 7th century also. This is not the time to throw mud at each other. I don’t care if you are a bible thumping Christian or a liberal women’s rights nut. They both need to wake up and realize the crazed jihadi wants both heads on a pole. Both also need to realize that they played a role in this civilization called the west.

D'Souza is on Medved right now if anyone's logged on....

Also D'Souza needs to stop worrying about birth control, condoms and the woman's sex life in general. After all when the muslims take charge this will all be solved...right?

Maybe he should just convert now...maybe Islam has what he wants. After all everything he wants a woman to be like fits Muhammed's seal of approval. Just look at the papers he has written over the years. My view of him is he is obessed with women and their moral lives. Hell I am conservative but am also a red-blooded American male. I like my women aggressive, to show a little skin and talkative.

All I can to D'Souza....convert and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh my word, this man has the most unintelligible set of logic "rules" I've heard from anyone attempting to be serious on this subject.

How do you debate an apologist? On its face his arguments are unsupportable and laughable. I've listened for five whole minutes.

"[paraphrasing] I'm as much for free speech as you (sic caller)but when you insult the Prophet Mohammad with the cartoons you're not just upsetting the radicals, but a billion Muslims in (lists countries)with the blasphemy."

And....?

Logical conclusion: Don't buy the Danish newspaper. Condemn the editors as religious bigots in editorials, protests, etc.

Muslim conclusion: Newspaper should be banned, speech against the Prophet should be banned. Violators should be severely punished.

He also said Muslims are not against free speech.

winoceros

You beat me to it - D'Souza is on Medved right now, and will be for the next few minutes.

Atlantean and Fcuk

Both of you are right. I too wonder which school/college D'Souza went to. Even Anglo-Indian schools in India, while watering down what Muslims did, don't pretend that nothing happened. And it went on uninterrupted for 800 years - 1000-1761 AD (not 1857).

Blah Blah Blah
"You can find similar verses in the Old Testament, etc."

He also just lied about the Moghul rule/attempted invasion of the Hindus.

(See clarifications above)

Also, the Islamic holocaust of Hindus didn't start with the Moghuls. Wonder whether Dervish D'Souza ever heard of Mohammed bin Qasim, Mahmoud of Ghazni, Mohammed Ghouri, Alauddin Khilji, Tamerlane, Bahman Shah, Ahmad Shah Bahamani, amongst many other Islamic rulers right up to the run up to the Moghul empire.

MeanieMo

Arundhati Roy is a Marxist who rejoiced at 9/11 (mocking Tony Snow's FNS commentary that weekend).

Dinesh D'Souza has written some excellent books and articles, but he appears to be very off base on this one. Let's hope he can be educated and/or is willing to debate.

The same apparently goes for NRO. I am going to politely email some NRO folks as well as D'Souza and hope they can become more a part of the solution than the problem.

D'Souza:

So we have to be careful about simply describing a religion of one billion people as “violent.” This would be tactically imprudent even if it were true, but it is not true, so why repeat a canard that has the terrible effect of driving the traditional Muslims into the radical camp? (from above)

THEY ALREADY ARE IN THE RADICAL CAMP!

D'Souza's arrogance, in presuming to write about matters that he could not possibly studied, arrogance about the most important matters, disqualifies him from ever again being taken seriously about anything.

His dreamy belief that Islamic terrorism dates back to 1979 and the Ayatollah Khomeini returning from Neauphle-le-chateau to Teheran, ignores, as Robert mentions about the entire history of terrorism directed against Israel, Israel as a state, and even before it was a state, the Jews who lived what was, historically, the Land of Israel. D'Souza ignores the terrorism used against the French in Algeria (and though Alistair Horne, who got so much wrong in his history of that conflict, a history which apparently Bush is reading, because Henry Kissiner, ever the Islam-avoider, recommended to Bush as a guide to the situation in Iraq, when a moment's thought would show ten ways in which the situations are different, and Horne's book refuses to recognize the centrality of Islam in the Algerian war against the Infidels, who included not only the French, but all kinds of other non-Muslims -- Spanish, Italians, Jews -- who had been living for a long time in Algeria and whose only crime was to not be Muslim).

But more than that, he ignores the 1350 years of Jihad-conquest, or apparently thinks that because the military means involved did not include bombs on airplanes (no, there were no bombs on airplanes during those 1300 years of Jihad-conquest, nor I.E.D.s blowing up Humvees when the Muslims conquered the MIddle East and North Africa, or when the Seljuk Turks conquered most of Anatolia, and the Ottoman Turks finished the rest of the conquering, nor when Sassanian Persia, or Hindu India, were conquered.

But "striking terror" in the hearts of the enemy was always Muslim war policy, and was practiced even without the particular technologies or techniques used today. No airplanes, no airplane hijackings or bombings. No I.E.D.'s, no use of I.E.D.s. Apparently Dinesh D'Souza thinks that that is all that "terrorism" is: not a method, but the precise techonologies that go back, on, just a few decades. He might as well suggest that the Muslims have never used propaganda, either, because they lacked, in the old days, audiocassettes, videocassettes, satellite television, and the Internet. That is his level. That is what we are being asked to take seriously.

And then there are the texts. The most obvious apologetics are based on the notion that "everyone does it." All the texts, we are told, are more or less the same. Are they? Are the texts of Judaism and Christianity just as bloodthirsty, just as likely to whip up hatreds and violence, as are the Qur'an and Hadith? We all know that in some of those texts terrible things are written about the ancient Israelites and the Canannites. But do Jews, have Jews, been going to temple and had rabbis whipping them so that as they leave those temples they grab non-Jews yelling "kill the Cananites"? Has that been a feature of Judaism for the past hundred years? Thousand years? Two thousand years? It is nonsense to compare the texts of either of the prior two monotheisms with those of Islam. Dinesh D'Souza has not read Arthur Jeffery, Sir William Muir, Willem Noldeke. He has not read Snouck Hurgronje or St. Clair Tisdall or Joseph Schacht or Antoine Fattal. He has not read K. S. Lal, or any of the other Indian historians who might provide him with figures on how many Hindu victims -- 60-70 million of them -- were murdered by Muslims, and the murdering only stopped, and so did the forced conversions, when it was realized that if every Hindu disappeared, then so too would those who could pay the Jizyah.

And if his airy allusion to the possiblities of "selective quotation" which, he thinks, is all that is worrisome in Islam, when the Qur'an is riddled with Jihad verses, when the softer suras are essentially cancelled and superseded by the harsher more violent verses (has Dinesh D'Souza heard about "naskh" or abrogtation? And has he taken it seriously? Or has he relied on one of those smiling, plausible Muslim informants who assures him that this doctrine is not used, that it is a figment of the islamophobic imagination -- something concocted in the fervid brain, say, of Ibn Warraq, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, those crazed interpreters of Islam who know so little, while Dinesh D'Souza knows so very much?

What does Dinesh D'Souza make of the contents of the khutbas, sermons, that are delivered in Bangladesh, after which the Muslims streaming out of the mosque feel inspired enough to beat to death passing Hindus? For that matter what does he make of the murder of the most peaceful, programmatically peaceful, Buddhists of southern Thailand by Muslims? What does he think of the strange outward flow of non-Muslims, observable everywhere that Muslims now rule where they once did not -- as in the lands that were once part of the Raj and are now known as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where the Hindu percentage of the population is now 10% what it was in 1947, in Pakistan, and a quarter of what it was in Bangladesh in 1947, and yet, at the same time, the Muslim proportion of India's population has gone steadily up? And what does he think about the steady diminution in the numbers of Christians in Arab lands (never mind the disappearance of a million Jews who, experiencing pogroms in Cairo and Tripoli and Baghdad, were not about to remain to enjoy the famed "tolerance" of Islam?)

Dinesh D'Souza has fallen for that nonsense about "family values" in Islam. He is apparently so offended by the obvious decadence of the Western world that he likes the idea of fine, upstanding, people who don't use tattoos or practice body-piercing, whose children must listen to their parents (as long as those parents are Muslim -- if you convert to Islam, however, you need not have any respect for your non-Muslim parents who have been Left Behind), and who, in the world of Dinesh D'Souza, a humorless and self-preening little world, some kinds of "morality" are accepted -- presumably the official Muslim hatred for homosexuality appeals to straight-laced Dinesh D'Souza -- but others are not.

What does Dinesh D'Souza find "moral" in polygamy, or in the contemptible treatment of women, not least in their inabiility to make a rape charge stick, or in the unequal punishments for women and men accused of sexual misconduct? How does he like lapidation as a form of exectuion? And the four male witnesses rule in cases of rape? What kind of "family values" are these? And what about being able to divorce -- for the man -- merely by saying "I divorce you" three times? Does that impress Dinesh D'Souza as an advance on Western ways? Can't one deplore many of the things that go on in the West without embracing or defending Islam?

What does Dinesh D'Souza think of Qutb? He remembers Qutb, doesn't he -- the man who came to America in the late 1940s for two years, the man who was disgusted by those church socials, and above all that hideous and dangerous square-dancing -- "Swing your ladies and dosido, and don't step on your partner's toe"? Does he not realize that it was this, and not Internet pornography or Howard Stern's surpassing vulgarity, that offended and offends Muslims?

And what does he think is the Muslim attitude toward devout, pious, Orthodox Jews, family values and all -- whether in Antwerp, or Jeruslaem, or Williamsburg? Does he think that Muslims are so pleased by the "family values" of these people that they find a natural affinity with them, wish them well, do not wish them harm? Is that what it says in the Qur'an: respect and honor Jews and Christians until such time as they begin to exhibit the features of modern, early 21st century, corrupted Western man, and only then? If so, why are the canonical texts full of inculcated hatred, even murderous hatred, of Jews and Christians who were as devout, as self-effacing, as pious, as full of family values, as a hundred Leagues of Decency together could not possibly observe?

He's a fool, but not a fool to be taken in isolation. His foolishness is that of the self-assured know-nothing, the Podsnap of this New Age, who does not know, and does not wish to know, about all kinds of things, for if he did know, they would Offend Him. Like Podsnap, Dinesh D'Souza has the habit of putting all disagreeables about Islam out of sight, out of mind.

With this book, he should lose any residual respect any one of sense might once have harbored for him. He has lost the right to an audience. He should no longer be given a hearing at National Review or, for that matter, anywhere else that wishes to be taken seriously.

This book is beyond the pale. Beyond all pales.

That the Western world is a mess is clear. That this mess could ever conceivably be taken as justification for the much greater mental and moral mess of Islam should also be clear. The habit of mental submission, the discouragement of free and skeptical inquiry, the perverse limits put on artistic expression, the refusal to locate political legitimacy in the expressed will of the people, the collectivism of the umma al-Islamiyya and disintrest or even hostility toward the idea of the individual and toward the guarantees of individual rights, are some of the features of Islam that Dinesh D'Souza misses completely.

Only those who understand this about Islam and who, at the same time, understand the decadence of the West (and do not applaud that decadence, but deplore it) should be listened to.

Many months ago someone decided to applaud here at Jihad Watch many of the most unseemly aspects of Western life. He received an unsympathetic reply, which is re-posted just below:

"The list provided above by "kj" of things we, Western men, supposedly "like," consists not entirely, but largely so, of some of the most deplorable things the decadent West has to offer. And it is offered up not in a spirit of self-critical mockery, but rather in a spirit of gleeful celebration. Good God. That Islam and what it inculcates, in what it encourages, and what it limits, entitles us to rightly regard it with at the very least distaste, at the most sheer horror, is perfectly justified. To then speak and write as if everything that has been done in the Western world is admirable, or justifiable, when all around us we see evidence of the sheer crap that so much of it is, not least in the educational system, and in the amorality and idiocy of so many, disturbs and more than disturbs. After the Soviet Union collapsed, one commentator, annoyed at the triumphalism, wrote that "just because they are sick does not mean that we are well." Islam is awful. And there is plenty of awfulness, but of a different kind, and a kind which one can deal with, a situation that is ameliorable, and at its worst offers nothing quite so bad as Islam.

But the list above is not the Western world, is not even America. It is a cheap version, the kinid of thing that a Muslim propagandist would, in large part, offer up as a list of Infidel horribles. There is plenty there not to celebrate, but to deplore."

[Posted by: Hugh at August 8, 2006 09:40 AM]

D'Souza is wrong about this, but in his defence, at least he is thinking. I mean this in contrast to the large minority that blames "neocons" for everything including Katrina. Lets face it, Jihadwatchers and people fully aware of Islam are a smaller minority and that "tiny minority of extremists". I think D'Souza is a possible ally.

D'Souza-:
"I’m saying it’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years."

I guess he means since the Munich massacre, anything before that doesn't register in his memory.

He is an idiot, and anyone who believes that also deserve it.

One more past posting re Qutb, and the humorlessness ("There is no humor in Islam." Ayatollah Khomeini) and loylessness of Islam, with its phony "morality," a morality that is phony because it is merely the outward face of hidden decadence. Does Dinesh D'Souze not know that Saudi Arabia, where "morality" on the street is a function of the mutawwa, the Saudi version of religious enforcers for which there are analogues in other Muslim countries with rigorously faith-based legal systems, the real behavior of any Saudi who can get away with it is far more decadent than anything that could be dreamed up by the most decadent Westerners? Has he no idea how Saudis and other rich Arabs behave in the capitals of the West? Does he not know what they all do behind their palace walls in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the U.A.E.? What does he think goes on? And aside from the sexual bheavior, what does he make of the camel-racing in which four and five year old boys, Pakistanis for the most part, are tied to the camels, and frequently are severly wounded or killed, and are treated as expendable beings, as are so many non-Arabs all over those horrific countries?

Dinesh D'Souza is in some ways akin to Pat Buchanan. Buchanan's antisemitism prevents him from supporting Israel or understanding that the Lesser Jihad against Israel is no different in kind from the Jihad now pursued against non-Muslims in Western Europe and elsewhere. In Dinesh D'Souza's case, he seems to have become such a Moralist of the cheapest, most narrow and obvious League-of-Decency kind, that he has, seeing Muslim girls, for example, modestly dressed, to forget all the rest of Islam: the Islam that divides the world between Believer and Infidel.

Part of the sinister missionary work being undertaken by the members of Hizb al Tahrir is devoted to convering prisoners, especially those who are black or His panic, appealing to them by claiming that Islam is all about "social justice." It isn't. It is in the Muslim countries where whoever seizes or inherits power manages to steal much of the country's wealth: think of the Mubarak in Egypt. Think of the Hashemites in Jordan (not much wealth, so the CIA has been supplementing, or at least used to, the call-girl bills of the ruler). Think of the al-Saud princes, tens of thousands of them, helping themselves to trillions of dollars of money that rightly belongs to every person in "Saudi" Arabia. And the same is true in Kuwait, in the U.A.E., in Qatar. And in Algeria, and Syria, and Morocco and Pakistan This business of "social justice" is nonsense, a misundertanding of the fact that people can attend the same mosque, and prostrate themselves next to someone much richer or much poorer. But that has no effet on political power or the sharing or proper distribtuion of the national wealth.

Dinesh D'Souza is, on the right, the equivalent of Richard Reid or Jose Padilla or any black radical who converts to Islam or joins the Nation of Islam (which is not strictly orthodox Islam), thinking that this will hasten the day of "social justice."

In Dinesh D'Souza's case, he sees Islam, the true and good and conservative family-values Islam, as the natural ally of all those who are offended by Western decadence. You don't like body-piercing or cocaine sniffing or non-stop sex at some bathhouse? Well, Dinesh D'Souza apparently believes that help is on the way-- help in the form of the inoffensive Qur'an, the innocent Hadith, the mild-mannered "peacemaker" (Karen Armstrong's epithet) Muhammad as described in the Sira.

Dinesh D'Souza -- brother under the skin to Richard Reid. To Jose Padilla. To Mahdi Bray.

They joined an imaginary Islam of "social justice." And Dinesh D'Souza defends an imaginary Islam of "family values."

The first two are behind bars (Padilla is awaiting trial). Dinesh D'Souza, however, is published by National Review, and is not being denounced by his colleagues, or sent to permanent Coventry.

When the day of reckoning comes, when those who wrote truthfully and intelligently about Islam, lliberal or conservative, are validated in every way, and the assorted "liberals" and "conservatives" who told nonsense and lies about Islam are exposed, then all kinds of things will happen, and many will, or should, lose their Important Positions.

Here's one more posting about Qutb, first put up on December 24, 2005:

"You know that Qutb, the spiritual father of so many now running around in Iraq and Afghanistan today (not to mention London, Paris, and Rome), wrote his Signposts Along the Way (Ma-alim fi al-tariq) partly prompted by his disgust with the West. And that disgust was the result of two years he spent in the United States in the late 1940s. How decadent it all was, how thoroughly un-Islamic. And do you remember what it was that offended him the most? It was the horrifying spectacle of a church social, and a square dance sponsored by a church -- where American girls and boys could swing their partners and do-si-do, and try not to step on your neighbor's toe, and now promenade. The horror, the sheer horror of it!

But I recently came across in a dusty bookstore, the kind where you find in the backroom a certain forgotten book that, once you realize its contents, leads you on a frightening journey into the deep dark past, or perhaps causes you to live in fear for your life, as others, afraid of what you have discovered in that manuscript, begin to chase you down (in either case, Soon To Be A Major Motion Picture), a book that prompted me to think of Sayyid Qutb. No, I am not speaking of the Qur'an -- though some will no doubt attribute Qutb's behavior to his fervent belief in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

The book I have in mind, one which I recently bought, is called Honor Your Partner. It is described as "Eighty-one American Square, Circle and Contra Dances, with Complete Instructions for Doing Them," compiled by Ed Durlacher, with musical arrangements by Ken MacDonald and photography by Dr. Ira Zasloff. It was published by Devin-Adair in 1949, while Qutb was in this country, seeing that fiendish and insensate whirl of boy and girl. It was a sight he could never forget.

Check out the book yourself. You will not believe the things you find therein. I would like to draw your attention in particular to "A Word to the Caller" and the "rules to all dancers for a successful evening":

(1) When instructions are being given DO be quiet so that all may hear and understand.
(2) Each person will be dancing with three or more others. One person can spoil the dance for everyone by being a "showoff" or ill-mannered.

(3) Have a GOOD time.


That last -- "Have a GOOD time" -- is particularly disturbing. What would Bin Laden, what would Ayatollah Khomeini, what would al-Qaradawi, what would Hassan al-Banna, what would al-Ghazzali, what would the earliest caliphs, say about that -- "Have a GOOD Time"?

No wonder Qutb went home, intent on preaching Jihad. Don't, as is fashionable, blame American "racism." Blame those square-dance fiends. Blame all those who preach "Have a GOOD time." Blame Ed Durlacher."


[Posted by: Hugh at June 28, 2006 08:50 PM]

Charles the Hammer:
you wrote: "at least he [D'Souza] is thinking..."

What?!! (as I laugh). You've got to be joking. One of the features I noticed in D'Souza's rant for Islam is that D'Souza hit on virtually every single one of the Islamists "talking points." He's like a pro-Islamist talking.

And, "no," being a talking head apologist for Islamism is not "thinking."

This reminds me of an item the other day (it was unintentionally hilarious) broadcast on CBC. The announcer (an Islamist apologist) was talking about the decapitation of the half-brother of Saddam (and the botched hanging). Yah, the hang-man got da rope too long... anyway, the announcer made some statements about the natural "horror" Muslims must endure at the mere thought of degrading a corpse (this, of course, illustrated the utter ignorance of the announcer -- Baghdad has a reputation of deposing of dictators, then dragging the body/corpse around the town square). Anyway, the announcer was addressing his remarks to a reporter (on the ground) in Baghdad. And I half-expected the reporter to comply ("Yah, oh the horror!") But, instead the reporter shot back with the observation that the residents of Baghdad are not walking repositories of critical thinking or independent reflections; the reporter noted that what residents of Baghdad do is to repeat whatever their local Imam tells them to say. Thus, one gets a regurgitation of the Imam's thoughts. That's it. (ditto for the D'Souza's and other Dhimmis.)

Dinesh D'Souza might be interested in doing some research before spouting off such utter garbage.

Instilling terror of fear of death for political purposes is central to Islam itself. Islam was founded upon terrorism. Muhammad proclaimed himself to be a terrorist ("I have been made victorious with terror"--Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim) and indeed was one. Islam critic and ex-Muslim Abul Kasem has documented 100 of Muhammad's terrorist operations in detail here

Terrorism comes in many forms, but certainly the assassination of critics and mockers counts as terrorism, and that was Muhammad's/Allah's intent:

ahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369.

{This describes the assassination of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf, who had allegedly “hurt Allah and his apostle” by composing mocking amatory verses about the Muslim women}.

“Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."[…]”

Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Travelling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”

Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”

Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.

Dinesh D'Souza might be interested in doing some research before spouting off such utter garbage.

Instilling terror or fear of death for political purposes is central to Islam itself. Islam was founded upon terrorism. Muhammad proclaimed himself to be a terrorist ("I have been made victorious with terror"--Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim) and indeed he was one. Islam critic and ex-Muslim Abul Kasem has documented one hundred (100) of Muhammad's terrorist operations in detail here

Terrorism comes in many forms, but certainly the assassination of critics and mockers counts as terrorism, and that was Muhammad's/Allah's intent when he employed that method:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369.

{This describes the assassination of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf, who had allegedly “hurt Allah and his apostle” by composing mocking amatory verses about the Muslim women}.

“Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."[…]”

Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Travelling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”

Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”

Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.

The problem is we are no longer perfectly sheltered in the strong arms of science.

Winston Churchill said:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities — but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.
The River War, pp. 248–50 (1899)

Archimedes:

What you have posted as a Comment*, cannot be said too often. Twice is hardly sufficient. Should be read and re-read.

_______________________
*"Instilling terror . . . for political purposes is central to Islam itself. etc., etc., etc."

D'Souza was just on CNN's Paula Zahn. D'Souza is out to score political brownie points by hitting on the Left. How utterly pathetic. And, please, this guy is a moron if he is too blind to comprehend that he's playing right into the hands of the Osama gang. He sounds identical (he makes precisely the same points as al-Qaeda), a flippin' acolyte, of the terrorists. Needless to say, this is not "helpful." Someone needs to inform D'Souza that you do not win a war by adopting the enemy's arguments!! (geesh...)

re Moslem invasions of India:

[quote - source at bottom]

Muslims in India and elsewhere have been led to believe by the mullahs and Muslim historians that the conquest of India by Islam started with the invasion of Sindh by Muhammad bin Qasim in 712 AD, was resumed by Mahmud Ghaznavi in 1000 AD, and completed by Muhammad Ghuri when he defeated the Chauhans of Ajmer and the Gahadvads of Kanauj in the last decade of the 12th century. Muslims of India in particular have been persuaded to look back with pride on those six centuries, if not more, when India was ruled by Muslim emperors. In this make-belief, the British rulers are treated as temporary intruders who cheated Islam of its Indian empire for a hundred years. So also the “Hindu Banias”, who succeeded the British in 1947 AD. Muslims are harangued every day, in every mosque and madrasah, not to rest till they reconquer the rest of India which, they are told, rightfully belongs to Islam.

The academic historians also agree that India was ruled by Muslim monarchs from the last decade of the 12th century to the end of the 18th. The standard textbooks of history, therefore, narrate medieval Indian history in terms of a number of Muslim imperial dynasties ruling from Delhi - the Mamluks (Slaves), the Khaljis, the Tughlaqs, the Sayyids, the Lodis, the Surs, the Mughals. The provincial Muslim dynasties with their seats at Srinagar, Lahore, Multan, Thatta, Ahmedabad, Mandu, Burhanpur, Daulatabad, Gulbarga, Bidar, Golconda, Bijapur, Madurai, Gaur, Jaunpur, and Lucknow fill the gaps during periods of imperial decline.

It is natural that in this version of medieval Indian history the recurring Hindu resistance to Islamic invaders, imperial as well as provincial, looks like a series of sporadic revolts occasioned by some minor grievances of purely local character, or led by some petty upstarts for purely personal gain. The repeated Rajput resurgence in Rajasthan, Bundelkhand and the Ganga-Yamuna Doab; the renewed assertion of independence by Hindu princes at Devagiri, Warrangal, Dvarasamudra and Madurai; the rise of the Vijayanagara Empire; the farflung fight offered by the Marathas; and the mighty movement of the Sikhs in the Punjab - all these then get readily fitted into the framework of a farflung and enduring Muslim empire. And the Hindu heroes who led this resistance for several centuries get reduced to ridiculous rebels who disturbed public peace at intervals but who were always put down.

http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/2006/12/india-and-moslems-httpwww.html

[original source given at address above - has more info there]

Hugh,

Lots of great posts in this thread by you. Reading them, I thought of Nietzsche's saying "Error is cowardice", especially since everyone in the thread basically saw through D'Souza's argument at least partly because of things we can all read here at Jihad Watch. D'Souza and his ilk are intellectual cowards, that is why they write such mistaken things. The information is out there, but they are afraid to look at it.

I also thought of this article about Jimmy Carter, but which I think has wider application among the "intellectuals" of the West. They are afraid of the alternative to their fictional world, so they avoid the truth, regardless of how openly the truth "struts its stuff", so to speak.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IA17Ak07.html

Anyway, I had a question for you. What Western authors do you think offers a "realistic" assessment of what the West should be? Who do you consider the essential Western character? What I mean is, do you envision an ideal, modern, Western society to be a society of "Voltaires", "Hegels", "Leopold Blooms", "Walt Whitmans", what? I know it isn't a society of "Podsnaps"! I prefer a society of "Caesars", personally. I think such a society would not have a terrorism problem.

Dinesh D'Souza is an INDIAN XTIAN
Indian Xtians are always pro-muslim
The cardinals and bishops of India always give cover to the islamists and mullahs of India

In India, there is an unholy anti-hindu alliance consisting of Indian Commies, Indian muslims and Indian Xtians

In all Indian elections, Xtians vote with muslims against Hindus

You will never find an Indian xtian taking an anti-muslim stance, unlike millions of non-Indian xtians

The reason is rather simple
Both muslims and xtians want the death of hindu religion
Muslims by the sword and xtians by conversion

In every hindu-muslim conflict, namely Ayodhya, Kashmir, Godhra, you will always find Indian xtians in the guise of human rights trying to give cover to muslims

In India you can find millions of Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists who are anti-islam
but never a single Indian xtian
Dinesh DSouza is an Indian xtian - thats why he is pro-muslim - end of story

Shaymsunder,

Do Indian Christians try to make alliances with Muslims over morality, like D'Souza suggests American Christians do? The argument isn't convincing, obviously, but is it used in India?

What do they say about the Hindus? That they are polytheists and therefore not equal to a Christian or a Muslim?

Muslims have been terrorizing the rest of the world for 1300 years whether this guy admits it or not.

HINDUUNITY.org has a motto: "Islam=Terrorism."

The Hindus have been struggling against Islamic terrorists and terrorism for nearly 1300 years--s so if anyone would know it is they. The Slavic peoples have been struggling against islamic terrorism for over 800 years. And believe us this is only the tip of the iceberg...

SO, exactly who does this creep think he's kidding?????

"I Have been made victorious with terror."--Muhammad, the Kuran.


ps---No alliance between Islam and Christianity will EVER be possible!

Kevin Weakley wrote above: "Maybe D'Souza's right, maybe we should start blaming dhimmis like him who enable the bloodshed to continue without blame.

Some epiphanies happen suddenly and instantaneously, others take time to pack their wallop. I've had an epiphany of the latter type, which has brewing and percolating slowly over the past couple of years -- and this D'Souza story is the final bubble that spilled the hot coffee.

Summarized in a nutshell, the epiphany is this:

PC is worse than Islam.

This nutshell can be unpacked a little, thusly:

PC is currently a problem worse than Islam, because PC is getting in the way of our effective analysis of the problem of Islam and rational measures to take to solve, or at least contain, this problem of Islam.

At any rate, my drift is similar to the poster's which I quoted above.

The D'Souza brain farct also demonstrates a complexity about PC; for, as the poster Cornelius notes above, D'Souza has demonstrated -- before, with respect to other issues -- a mind open to the wider reality outside the PC box.

For example, in the 1990s, he bravely took on an axiom that found nourishing soil in PC: some blacks (mostly in the USA) were bandying about the notion that most ancient Egyptian and even ancient Greek wisdom was due to certain key black Africans, and that, therefore, the cultural and philosophical and scientific heritage of the West owes a lot, or maybe most, of its substance to black Africans. Sound familiar? It's roughly the same argument Muslims purvey about how Islam is the original font of most modern philosophy and science.

The complexity that is revealed about PC with D'Souza's politically INcorrect intelligence in one sphere, and his politically correct stupidity in another (far more important) sphere shows that the PC Multiculturalist template is not monolithic: some axioms and some paradigms are stronger than others. The complexity may also be explained by personal and biographical factors in each individual under consideration -- D'Souza could be one of those Indians who has internalized generations of dhimmitude without being fully self-aware of it.

Dinesh said:

"Besides, you have to look at what the Islamic empires actually did. There were Christians and Jews who lived under the various Muslim dynasties, from the Abbasid to the Ottoman."

He needs to meet some Armenians, they could enlighten him about the treatment of Christians in the Ottoman Empire. The Muslim Turks terrorized and killed as many as the could. That started over 1000 years ago. This guy does not know history.

Pythagoras wrote - ps---No alliance between Islam and Christianity will EVER be possible!

It has been alive and kicking in India for at least 50 years
Watch the Indian xtians on every hindu-muslim issue, you will find them giving 'intellectual cover' and human rights cover to muslims

--

Dinesh Dsouza is a bright guy, he knows what the muslims did in India, he is not PC, simply like almost all Indian xtians he is pro-muslim and anti-hindu.

--

Veni vidi vici wrote
-Do Indian Christians try to make alliances with Muslims over morality, like D'Souza suggests American Christians do? The argument isn't convincing, obviously, but is it used in India?

--
Heck no,
In India, the most vigorous anti-muslim force is the BJP affiliates. Anything that strengthens the BJP, strengthens hindu society and makes conversions more difficult
The catholic Sonia Gandhi is a prime muslim appeaser. Almost all xtians and muslims support Sonia Gandhi

"Who do you consider the essential Western character? What I mean is, do you envision an ideal, modern, Western society to be a society of "Voltaires", "Hegels", "Leopold Blooms", "Walt Whitmans", what? I know it isn't a society of "Podsnaps"!
-- from a posting above

The mix of real people with fictional characters (Bloom, Podsnap) in your list is a tribute to the creators of those fictional characters (Joyce, Dickens) Can't imagine any one person being the "essential Western character" -- that is, the embodiment of the Western world. But wily Odysseus comes close.

How about just setting down your own list several dozen representative though differently remarkable people, including necessarily Shakespeare and Pushkin and Dante and Chateaubriand and many others, including my personal favorite -- my mother. As for the others, use your own sense of things, and add names as you wish. You don't have to include on your list my mother. She would probably be furious to have me bring her into this at all. Lists will overlap, but each list will differ or should, from every other list. In other words: Ni tout à fait le même, ni tout à fait un autre.

But do trade in Hegel for Robert Benchley.

Hugh

The problem with the west is not immoral behavior but instead stupidity. It is stupidity when ever someone says "Islam is just like Christianity". It is stupidity when ever someone says "the number one priority in Math class is cultural sensitivity" which is occurring right now in the Newton School district in Massachusetts. It is stupidity whenever some says "most Muslims are not radical" or "Osama is just confused about Islam". It is stupidity when someone like Dinesh D'Souza tries to use the morality argument to why Muslims are fighting us.

Now we can spend hours on end talking about the lesbians down the street, the dangers of pre-marital sex, god awful rap music, or the piercing of America with every part of ones body but that will not fix our problem. It does not matter if we celebrate it or not. If we do not fix the "stupidity problem" first we can kiss this good bye. Just look at the two political wings and how they approach the problem.

The liberal leadership should be going crazy over the fact that Islam is against women's rights and all those wonderful liberal concepts like separation of religion and state. Yet they don't. Liberals should be listening to people like Hirsi Ali who is as liberal as they come or Bruce Bawer who is a homosexual but they don’t. They want to put the blame on conservatives for their “cowboy behavior” and “Christian values”. They blame imperialism or some other fantasy.

The conservative leaders should be brave and just say it like it is when it comes to Islam. They should point to people like Mr. Spencer and you for more information but instead they run away from the truth and cannot run away from Mr. Spencer's works fast enough. Do you think G.W. or Cheney has read "The Truth about Muhammad"? Of course the answer is no. Do you think Dinesh D'Souza has? (hell no!). Moral men they may be and go to church each week but they are still bitten by the stupidity bug. They don’t read about Islam and when they do its works by safe authors like B. Lewis and Mrs. Armstrong. You know the ones that don’t give you the impression that we are in a religious war. They instead blame liberals for their lack of morals. Remember according to G.W. all religions are good and moral.

See...we have a stupidity problem. Not a decadence, liberal problem or Christian conservative problem. Hugh Hefner or Pat Robinson could fall of the planet tomorrow and we would still be stuck with our little problem.

There is nothing the screams stupidity more then fighting with each other over matters like morality in the west when it does not matter. It only serves to separate and divide when instead we should point out why a liberal or a conservative should be outraged by Islamic law or jihad. To be outraged by the teachings of the faith. If I can get that liberal lesbian with the nose ring to join the cause because she knows Islamic law will put her to death then it is worth it. I am not going to lecture her about her morality. She knows were I stand and vice versa. We can argue about it in some far of future. If we don’t unite then there is no future for either of us.

I also forgot to add
Most Indian Xtians are very religious and make nasty comments about idolators
Indian xtians are mostly neo-converts and really hate their former religion

I have had several Indian xtians tell me in person, that I am a hell bound idolator
For these xtians, islam rather looks like old testament stuff

Similarly in the west, you will find xtian clergy bending over backward to accomodate islam,
whereas hindus face church opposition if they try to build a temple or get biased school text books corrected, ( as in the recent California text book case )

Look at the interfaith nonsense put out by the liberal churches. You will always find muslims invited to these love fests, but very very rarely will you see the same courtesy extended to any eastern religion - sikhism, buddhism or hinduism

Mohammed tried to model himself on Moses
Most of the barbarism in the Sharia is lifted from Leviticus and Deutoronomy

Here is a further snippet on Dinesh DSouza
He is from Goa, which was a Portuguese colony from 1500 to 1960
Goa had the catholic inquisition for forced conversion for 300 years
The inquisition was so bad, that hindus fled Goa and settled in nearby muslim kingdoms
Dinesh DSouza is likely a descendent of one of the inquisition victims. For Dinesh DSouza to focus on islam, may be too difficult since the Portuguese used the same methods for 350 years
The Goan inquisition was far more thorough than the muslim Jaziyah such that , while only 20% of the hindu population in muslim kingdoms converted, nearly 40% converted in Goa

Another snippet on Indian xtians

Xtians are routinely abused and ethnic cleansed in all muslim countries from Bethlehem to Pakistan, but you will never see any Indian xtian raise this issue, since it will break their alliance with Indian muslims

Shyamsunder,

with regard to Xtian alliances with Muslims, I notice the same here in Canada -- but it's certain denominations of Xtians which adhere, support, and defend Muslims. This would be the right-wing Catholics, ultra-left-wing Anglicans, along with the United Church, etc. They vigorously support the Islamists (including, giving sympathy to terrorists.) I consider them enemies of civilization.

greatcometof1577,

"The problem with the west is not immoral behavior but instead stupidity."

It's not stupidity either.

It takes a certain amount of intelligence to buy into the PC deformation. More intelligence is not necessary to get out of the PC box. And becoming more moral is also not necessary to get out of the PC box. Most Western PC people are very moral.

It's not the presence or absence of intelligence and morals that is the problem, it's the socio-psychological framework in which these two virtues operate and by which they are limited, or re-routed: that is the problem.

Re: Hugh's call for a list of Western representatives: in the spirit in which Jean-Francois Revel revels in the greatness of latter-day America, one should also include on the list people who might otherwise displease or disgust us, such as (if I may present my hat-picking on a trajectory plummeting precipitously downward) Condorcet, Nietzsche, Salvador Dali, Andy Warhol, Karen Finley, Jerry Springer and Howard Stern -- for these types of representatives, even in their flamboyant disease, help in their small way to reveal the greatness of the Western Experiment in freedom and progress: a gloriously imperfect superiority over all other civilizations.

Shyamsunder

In case you didn't notice, D'Souza also painted a rosy picture about the Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition to the Moorish rulers. And your tripe above about Hindus fleeing Goa to Muslim areas is exactly that - while the Portuguese did commit outrages like defacing statues in the Elephanta caves, their main rivaly was against Muslim rulers. Alfonso de Albuquerque, for instance, had a military alliance with the Vijayanagar ruler Krishnadeva Raya, and provided him with arms and ammunition that he used in many of his campaigns, notably the ones against Bijapur in the Raichur Doab. From your post above, one would think that the Muslims were more tolerant of Hindus than the Portuguese inquisition was. There is nothing to indicate that the Bahamani Sultanate, the Sultanates of Ahmadnagar, Bijapur and Ahmadabad (who lost Diu to the Portuguese) were any more tolerant towards Hindus.

Also, there is a world of difference in the attitude of Western Christians, who are very tolerant, vs. that of Indian Christians, who indeed do as you state. Also, your attempt to tar all Christian Churches as Islam lovers are idiotic, since there are a huge number of Hindus in the West who side with Islam putting their racial commonality above their religious differences.

Also, Sonia Gandhi's sucking up to Muslims has less to do with her Catholic heritage (which is Italian, not Portuguese-Indian), and more to do with her being married to India's leading dhimmi family - from Jawaharlal Nehru to Rajiv Gandhi.

Hey Infidel Pride, what's a good word in Hindi that means 'useful idiot'? I'm an Indian-American and sadly I can't speak a word of Hindi.

I think it is already too late to comment on this thread - I would have loved to participate - but here goes.

MeanieMo,
Arundhati Roy is an Indian Christian just like Dinesh D'Souza. She is also a extreme Marxist (Naxalite - yes there are such creatures - the marxists believe in exterminating class enemies on the day of revolution - naxalites feel that there is no need to wait for the day of revolution) supporter. Her mothers name was Mary Ray - she deliberately takes on an Indian/Hindu name because exotica sells in the West. I believe her "other" name is Suzanne Ray.

wrathofasma
The Hindi word for 'useful idiot' is "Jawarharlal Nehru"

Arundhati Roy's reaction to 9/11 - for anyone who thinks she's even remotely sane:

The algebra of infinite justice
by Arundhati Roy
Saturday September 29, 2001
The Guardian


In the aftermath of the unconscionable September 11 suicide attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Centre, an American newscaster said: "Good and evil rarely manifest themselves as clearly as they did last Tuesday. People who we don't know massacred people who we do. And they did so with contemptuous glee." Then he broke down and wept.

Here's the rub: America is at war against people it doesn't know, because they don't appear much on TV. Before it has properly identified or even begun to comprehend the nature of its enemy, the US government has, in a rush of publicity and embarrassing rhetoric, cobbled together an "international coalition against terror", mobilised its army, its air force, its navy and its media, and committed them to battle.

The trouble is that once America goes off to war, it can't very well return without having fought one. If it doesn't find its enemy, for the sake of the enraged folks back home, it will have to manufacture one. Once war begins, it will develop a momentum, a logic and a justification of its own, and we'll lose sight of why it's being fought in the first place.

What we're witnessing here is the spectacle of the world's most powerful country reaching reflexively, angrily, for an old instinct to fight a new kind of war. Suddenly, when it comes to defending itself, America's streamlined warships, cruise missiles and F-16 jets look like obsolete, lumbering things. As deterrence, its arsenal of nuclear bombs is no longer worth its weight in scrap. Box-cutters, penknives, and cold anger are the weapons with which the wars of the new century will be waged. Anger is the lock pick. It slips through customs unnoticed. Doesn't show up in baggage checks.

Who is America fighting? On September 20, the FBI said that it had doubts about the identities of some of the hijackers. On the same day President George Bush said, "We know exactly who these people are and which governments are supporting them." It sounds as though the president knows something that the FBI and the American public don't.

In his September 20 address to the US Congress, President Bush called the enemies of America "enemies of freedom". "Americans are asking, 'Why do they hate us?' " he said. "They hate our freedoms - our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." People are being asked to make two leaps of faith here. First, to assume that The Enemy is who the US government says it is, even though it has no substantial evidence to support that claim. And second, to assume that The Enemy's motives are what the US government says they are, and there's nothing to support that either.

For strategic, military and economic reasons, it is vital for the US government to persuade its public that their commitment to freedom and democracy and the American Way of Life is under attack. In the current atmosphere of grief, outrage and anger, it's an easy notion to peddle. However, if that were true, it's reasonable to wonder why the symbols of America's economic and military dominance - the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon - were chosen as the targets of the attacks. Why not the Statue of Liberty? Could it be that the stygian anger that led to the attacks has its taproot not in American freedom and democracy, but in the US government's record of commitment and support to exactly the opposite things - to military and economic terrorism, insurgency, military dictatorship, religious bigotry and unimaginable genocide (outside America)? It must be hard for ordinary Americans, so recently bereaved, to look up at the world with their eyes full of tears and encounter what might appear to them to be indifference. It isn't indifference. It's just augury. An absence of surprise. The tired wisdom of knowing that what goes around eventually comes around. American people ought to know that it is not them but their government's policies that are so hated. They can't possibly doubt that they themselves, their extraordinary musicians, their writers, their actors, their spectacular sportsmen and their cinema, are universally welcomed. All of us have been moved by the courage and grace shown by firefighters, rescue workers and ordinary office staff in the days since the attacks.

America's grief at what happened has been immense and immensely public. It would be grotesque to expect it to calibrate or modulate its anguish. However, it will be a pity if, instead of using this as an opportunity to try to understand why September 11 happened, Americans use it as an opportunity to usurp the whole world's sorrow to mourn and avenge only their own. Because then it falls to the rest of us to ask the hard questions and say the harsh things. And for our pains, for our bad timing, we will be disliked, ignored and perhaps eventually silenced.

The world will probably never know what motivated those particular hijackers who flew planes into those particular American buildings. They were not glory boys. They left no suicide notes, no political messages; no organisation has claimed credit for the attacks. All we know is that their belief in what they were doing outstripped the natural human instinct for survival, or any desire to be remembered. It's almost as though they could not scale down the enormity of their rage to anything smaller than their deeds. And what they did has blown a hole in the world as we knew it. In the absence of information, politicians, political commentators and writers (like myself) will invest the act with their own politics, with their own interpretations. This speculation, this analysis of the political climate in which the attacks took place, can only be a good thing.

But war is looming large. Whatever remains to be said must be said quickly. Before America places itself at the helm of the "international coalition against terror", before it invites (and coerces) countries to actively participate in its almost godlike mission - called Operation Infinite Justice until it was pointed out that this could be seen as an insult to Muslims, who believe that only Allah can mete out infinite justice, and was renamed Operation Enduring Freedom- it would help if some small clarifications are made. For example, Infinite Justice/Enduring Freedom for whom? Is this America's war against terror in America or against terror in general? What exactly is being avenged here? Is it the tragic loss of almost 7,000 lives, the gutting of five million square feet of office space in Manhattan, the destruction of a section of the Pentagon, the loss of several hundreds of thousands of jobs, the bankruptcy of some airline companies and the dip in the New York Stock Exchange? Or is it more than that? In 1996, Madeleine Albright, then the US secretary of state, was asked on national television what she felt about the fact that 500,000 Iraqi children had died as a result of US economic sanctions. She replied that it was "a very hard choice", but that, all things considered, "we think the price is worth it". Albright never lost her job for saying this. She continued to travel the world representing the views and aspirations of the US government. More pertinently, the sanctions against Iraq remain in place. Children continue to die.

So here we have it. The equivocating distinction between civilisation and savagery, between the "massacre of innocent people" or, if you like, "a clash of civilisations" and "collateral damage". The sophistry and fastidious algebra of infinite justice. How many dead Iraqis will it take to make the world a better place? How many dead Afghans for every dead American? How many dead women and children for every dead man? How many dead mojahedin for each dead investment banker? As we watch mesmerised, Operation Enduring Freedom unfolds on TV monitors across the world. A coalition of the world's superpowers is closing in on Afghanistan, one of the poorest, most ravaged, war-torn countries in the world, whose ruling Taliban government is sheltering Osama bin Laden, the man being held responsible for the September 11 attacks.

The only thing in Afghanistan that could possibly count as collateral value is its citizenry. (Among them, half a million maimed orphans.There are accounts of hobbling stampedes that occur when artificial limbs are airdropped into remote, inaccessible villages.) Afghanistan's economy is in a shambles. In fact, the problem for an invading army is that Afghanistan has no conventional coordinates or signposts to plot on a military map - no big cities, no highways, no industrial complexes, no water treatment plants. Farms have been turned into mass graves. The countryside is littered with land mines - 10 million is the most recent estimate. The American army would first have to clear the mines and build roads in order to take its soldiers in.

Fearing an attack from America, one million citizens have fled from their homes and arrived at the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The UN estimates that there are eight million Afghan citizens who need emergency aid. As supplies run out - food and aid agencies have been asked to leave - the BBC reports that one of the worst humanitarian disasters of recent times has begun to unfold. Witness the infinite justice of the new century. Civilians starving to death while they're waiting to be killed.

In America there has been rough talk of "bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age". Someone please break the news that Afghanistan is already there. And if it's any consolation, America played no small part in helping it on its way. The American people may be a little fuzzy about where exactly Afghanistan is (we hear reports that there's a run on maps of the country), but the US government and Afghanistan are old friends.

In 1979, after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA and Pakistan's ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) launched the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA. Their purpose was to harness the energy of Afghan resistance to the Soviets and expand it into a holy war, an Islamic jihad, which would turn Muslim countries within the Soviet Union against the communist regime and eventually destabilise it. When it began, it was meant to be the Soviet Union's Vietnam. It turned out to be much more than that. Over the years, through the ISI, the CIA funded and recruited almost 100,000 radical mojahedin from 40 Islamic countries as soldiers for America's proxy war. The rank and file of the mojahedin were unaware that their jihad was actually being fought on behalf of Uncle Sam. (The irony is that America was equally unaware that it was financing a future war against itself.)

In 1989, after being bloodied by 10 years of relentless conflict, the Russians withdrew, leaving behind a civilisation reduced to rubble.

Civil war in Afghanistan raged on. The jihad spread to Chechnya, Kosovo and eventually to Kashmir. The CIA continued to pour in money and military equipment, but the overheads had become immense, and more money was needed. The mojahedin ordered farmers to plant opium as a "revolutionary tax". The ISI set up hundreds of heroin laboratories across Afghanistan. Within two years of the CIA's arrival, the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderland had become the biggest producer of heroin in the world, and the single biggest source of the heroin on American streets. The annual profits, said to be between $100bn and $200bn, were ploughed back into training and arming militants.

In 1995, the Taliban - then a marginal sect of dangerous, hardline fundamentalists - fought its way to power in Afghanistan. It was funded by the ISI, that old cohort of the CIA, and supported by many political parties in Pakistan. The Taliban unleashed a regime of terror. Its first victims were its own people, particularly women. It closed down girls' schools, dismissed women from government jobs, and enforced sharia laws under which women deemed to be "immoral" are stoned to death, and widows guilty of being adulterous are buried alive. Given the Taliban government's human rights track record, it seems unlikely that it will in any way be intimidated or swerved from its purpose by the prospect of war, or the threat to the lives of its civilians.

After all that has happened, can there be anything more ironic than Russia and America joining hands to re-destroy Afghanistan? The question is, can you destroy destruction? Dropping more bombs on Afghanistan will only shuffle the rubble, scramble some old graves and disturb the dead.

The desolate landscape of Afghanistan was the burial ground of Soviet communism and the springboard of a unipolar world dominated by America. It made the space for neocapitalism and corporate globalisation, again dominated by America. And now Afghanistan is poised to become the graveyard for the unlikely soldiers who fought and won this war for America.

And what of America's trusted ally? Pakistan too has suffered enormously. The US government has not been shy of supporting military dictators who have blocked the idea of democracy from taking root in the country. Before the CIA arrived, there was a small rural market for opium in Pakistan. Between 1979 and 1985, the number of heroin addicts grew from zero to one-and-a-half million. Even before September 11, there were three million Afghan refugees living in tented camps along the border. Pakistan's economy is crumbling. Sectarian violence, globalisation's structural adjustment programmes and drug lords are tearing the country to pieces. Set up to fight the Soviets, the terrorist training centres and madrasahs, sown like dragon's teeth across the country, produced fundamentalists with tremendous popular appeal within Pakistan itself. The Taliban, which the Pakistan government has supported, funded and propped up for years, has material and strategic alliances with Pakistan's own political parties.

Now the US government is asking (asking?) Pakistan to garotte the pet it has hand-reared in its backyard for so many years. President Musharraf, having pledged his support to the US, could well find he has something resembling civil war on his hands.

India, thanks in part to its geography, and in part to the vision of its former leaders, has so far been fortunate enough to be left out of this Great Game. Had it been drawn in, it's more than likely that our democracy, such as it is, would not have survived. Today, as some of us watch in horror, the Indian government is furiously gyrating its hips, begging the US to set up its base in India rather than Pakistan. Having had this ringside view of Pakistan's sordid fate, it isn't just odd, it's unthinkable, that India should want to do this. Any third world country with a fragile economy and a complex social base should know by now that to invite a superpower such as America in (whether it says it's staying or just passing through) would be like inviting a brick to drop through your windscreen.

Operation Enduring Freedom is ostensibly being fought to uphold the American Way of Life. It'll probably end up undermining it completely. It will spawn more anger and more terror across the world. For ordinary people in America, it will mean lives lived in a climate of sickening uncertainty: will my child be safe in school? Will there be nerve gas in the subway? A bomb in the cinema hall? Will my love come home tonight? There have been warnings about the possibility of biological warfare - smallpox, bubonic plague, anthrax - the deadly payload of innocuous crop-duster aircraft. Being picked off a few at a time may end up being worse than being annihilated all at once by a nuclear bomb.

The US government, and no doubt governments all over the world, will use the climate of war as an excuse to curtail civil liberties, deny free speech, lay off workers, harass ethnic and religious minorities, cut back on public spending and divert huge amounts of money to the defence industry. To what purpose? President Bush can no more "rid the world of evil-doers" than he can stock it with saints. It's absurd for the US government to even toy with the notion that it can stamp out terrorism with more violence and oppression. Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease. Terrorism has no country. It's transnational, as global an enterprise as Coke or Pepsi or Nike. At the first sign of trouble, terrorists can pull up stakes and move their "factories" from country to country in search of a better deal. Just like the multi-nationals.

Terrorism as a phenomenon may never go away. But if it is to be contained, the first step is for America to at least acknowledge that it shares the planet with other nations, with other human beings who, even if they are not on TV, have loves and griefs and stories and songs and sorrows and, for heaven's sake, rights. Instead, when Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, was asked what he would call a victory in America's new war, he said that if he could convince the world that Americans must be allowed to continue with their way of life, he would consider it a victory.

The September 11 attacks were a monstrous calling card from a world gone horribly wrong. The message may have been written by Bin Laden (who knows?) and delivered by his couriers, but it could well have been signed by the ghosts of the victims of America's old wars. The millions killed in Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel - backed by the US - invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel's occupation of the West Bank. And the millions who died, in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Panama, at the hands of all the terrorists, dictators and genocidists whom the American government supported, trained, bankrolled and supplied with arms. And this is far from being a comprehensive list.

For a country involved in so much warfare and conflict, the American people have been extremely fortunate. The strikes on September 11 were only the second on American soil in over a century. The first was Pearl Harbour. The reprisal for this took a long route, but ended with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This time the world waits with bated breath for the horrors to come.

Someone recently said that if Osama bin Laden didn't exist, America would have had to invent him. But, in a way, America did invent him. He was among the jihadis who moved to Afghanistan in 1979 when the CIA commenced its operations there. Bin Laden has the distinction of being created by the CIA and wanted by the FBI. In the course of a fortnight he has been promoted from suspect to prime suspect and then, despite the lack of any real evidence, straight up the charts to being "wanted dead or alive".

From all accounts, it will be impossible to produce evidence (of the sort that would stand scrutiny in a court of law) to link Bin Laden to the September 11 attacks. So far, it appears that the most incriminating piece of evidence against him is the fact that he has not condemned them.

From what is known about the location of Bin Laden and the living conditions in which he operates, it's entirely possible that he did not personally plan and carry out the attacks - that he is the inspirational figure, "the CEO of the holding company". The Taliban's response to US demands for the extradition of Bin Laden has been uncharacteristically reasonable: produce the evidence, then we'll hand him over. President Bush's response is that the demand is "non-negotiable".

(While talks are on for the extradition of CEOs - can India put in a side request for the extradition of Warren Anderson of the US? He was the chairman of Union Carbide, responsible for the Bhopal gas leak that killed 16,000 people in 1984. We have collated the necessary evidence. It's all in the files. Could we have him, please?)

But who is Osama bin Laden really? Let me rephrase that. What is Osama bin Laden? He's America's family secret. He is the American president's dark doppelganger. The savage twin of all that purports to be beautiful and civilised. He has been sculpted from the spare rib of a world laid to waste by America's foreign policy: its gunboat diplomacy, its nuclear arsenal, its vulgarly stated policy of "full-spectrum dominance", its chilling disregard for non-American lives, its barbarous military interventions, its support for despotic and dictatorial regimes, its merciless economic agenda that has munched through the economies of poor countries like a cloud of locusts. Its marauding multinationals who are taking over the air we breathe, the ground we stand on, the water we drink, the thoughts we think. Now that the family secret has been spilled, the twins are blurring into one another and gradually becoming interchangeable. Their guns, bombs, money and drugs have been going around in the loop for a while. (The Stinger missiles that will greet US helicopters were supplied by the CIA. The heroin used by America's drug addicts comes from Afghanistan. The Bush administration recently gave Afghanistan a $43m subsidy for a "war on drugs"....)

Now Bush and Bin Laden have even begun to borrow each other's rhetoric. Each refers to the other as "the head of the snake". Both invoke God and use the loose millenarian currency of good and evil as their terms of reference. Both are engaged in unequivocal political crimes. Both are dangerously armed - one with the nuclear arsenal of the obscenely powerful, the other with the incandescent, destructive power of the utterly hopeless. The fireball and the ice pick. The bludgeon and the axe. The important thing to keep in mind is that neither is an acceptable alternative to the other.

President Bush's ultimatum to the people of the world - "If you're not with us, you're against us" - is a piece of presumptuous arrogance. It's not a choice that people want to, need to, or should have to make.

© Arundhati Roy 2001

s_sgt7,

"Because the pigs have no incentive to change their behavior - they will continue to behave like pigs. That is their way.

"Until the pigs decide not to behave like pigs - that is when things will change."


except if the pigs are allowed to run things--to take over. Like in Orwell's animal Farm. There, if I recall, the pigs are in power.

No power to the pigs, I say. (I do not mean our police). I mean the pigs that behave like pigs.

About Dinesh d'Souza:

Perhaps "they" have gotten to him, threatened to separate his head from the rest of him. Perhaps he has promised to make amends to "them."

Who knows what made this turnabout?

Could he really be so appalled at the morality--or lack thereof--that he perceives around him as to wish an Islamic sharia existence on us, and upon himself?

Mr. D'Souza is absolutely crazy. Islam was a problem (even in its native land) ever since it was born !

The age of information is NOW and so Islam's misdeeds are being well broadcast.

As for the past 1,300 years, people like D'Souza are responsible for not blaming Islam when it should have been squarely blamed for Jaziya, forced conversion and death.

Also, ALL INDIA COULD NOT BE CONVERTED BECAUSE OF THE STUBBORN FORTITUTE OF THE HINDUS, NOT BECAUSE OF ISLAM'S GENEROSITY !

REMEMBER Mr. D'SOUZA..THE FINAL ONSLAUGHT AGAINST ISLAM WILL BE FROM MY RELIGION.."THE TIMELESS AND ETERNAL HINDUISM".

Atlantean,
Brother, not just 800 years, all of 1300.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/moghal_atro.html

Some of the comments above regarding arundhati roy. Yes, she is a scamster Christian posing as a Hindu. Yes, she is a communist. No, she does not have a lot of readers. Thank God.

Also, there is a world of difference in the attitude of Western Christians, who are very tolerant, vs. that of Indian Christians, who indeed do as you state. Also, your attempt to tar all Christian Churches as Islam lovers are idiotic, since there are a huge number of Hindus in the West who side with Islam putting their racial commonality above their religious differences.

Posted by: Infidel Pride
--

Let me rephrase what I am saying, 99.9% of Indian Xtians and most western liberal churches are pro-muslim

The Pope recently condemned islam, but you will never see an Indian cardinal or bishop condemn islam

--

Regarding the Goan Inquisition,
It started in earnest after the fall of Vijayanagar


I am quoting from the hindutva historian Priolkar on the Goan Inquisition, wherein he quotes first hand reports that hindus fled the Xtian rule in Goa to live under muslims of Bijapur, circa 1600

And a good deal of the Peshwa reconquista was in liberating a large chunk of Goa

Assalamau Laikum to all my Hindu brothers,

I say this because at one time perhaps in the distant past my ancestor too may have been Hindu...but obviously saw the light of Islam in time.

Atlantis, Arjun...et al...any sort of superemacy/colonisition perhaps is unjustified...but I don't see round condemenation of the lilly livered British...where is it?

Why just pick on Islam?

I think that perhaps Islam would have been more successful in INdia in the past not becuase of Hindu "warriors" ...but because of the Sikhs.

Banda Bahadur did incalculable damage to the Mugal empire...in 7 years he created havoc and shook that shining empire on it's foundations. After this time sadly the only way was down.

Hindus could only run as fast their little legs would take them to hide behind trees and rocks.

However as the Koran asks the muslism "to wait behind every tree and stone"....this strategy didn't exactly help the hindu.

In my opinion Jinnah made a huge mistake by asking for Pak....all this has done is slowed down the Islamisation of India....once again this is a disaster.

Atalantis, Arjun....every hindu has a right to Islam....given time and peace...I'm sure you will exercise your right too...your lord Allah SWT is waiting.

Naseem,

Assalamau Laikum to all my Hindu brothers

Walekum Salaam.

I say this because at one time perhaps in the distant past my ancestor too may have been Hindu...but obviously saw the light of Islam in time.

Yes and your ancestors were murdered, raped, enslaved, their houses and temples were destroyed. They witnessed and experience the devilry of Islamism and submitted to it like. Your lineage must be one of chickenhearts.

I think that perhaps Islam would have been more successful in INdia in the past not becuase of Hindu "warriors" ...but because of the Sikhs.

Ever heard of Marathas, Rajputs, Vijayanagara Empire? No? Ok, I'm not surprised. You are a product of Islamism and it'll be too much on my part to expect you to know a bit about history, apart from history of Islam and its "glorious" exploits.

Banda Bahadur did incalculable damage to the Mugal empire...in 7 years he created havoc and shook that shining empire on it's foundations. After this time sadly the only way was down.

Shining Empire eh? What did they achieve? Apart from wasting time, resources and money on building monuments, drinking, having sex with multiple partners at the harem, did they achieve ANY engineering, education, scientific or technological development of the kind that the Guptas achieved? Anywhere close?

In my opinion Jinnah made a huge mistake by asking for Pak....all this has done is slowed down the Islamisation of India....once again this is a disaster.

Sadly for us and fortunately for you, Jinnah's Congress party colleagues like Sonia Gandhi might achieve the Islamisation of India. Dont worry.

Atalantis, Arjun....every hindu has a right to Islam....given time and peace...I'm sure you will exercise your right too...your lord Allah SWT is waiting.

Of course, every Hindu has a right to Islam. But may I emphasize that every Hindu has a right to piss on Islam as well?

In his new book, The Enemy at Home, D’Souza argues that the cultural Left (the media, the nonprofit sector, and the universities) is allied with the radical Muslims, and that conservatives and “decent liberals" have no choice but to join forces with the traditional Muslims to combat the radical Muslims and the cultural left. He seems to be unaware that Islam is also the ally of Fascist and anti-Semite groups such as Aryan Nations - under the influence of Julius Evola there is within the political right aan ultra-right wing that endorses and sympathizes with Isam and consequently also has declared war against the United States and the West (on Evola's support for Islam and Tradition against cultural decadence, see his "Revolt Agains The Modern World", pages 243 - 244).

In his claim that the religious and socially conservative Muslims are our moral allies against the left, D’Souza relies on a distinction between traditional and radical Islam. According to him, we should encourage a split between “radical” Muslims (who engage in jihad) and “traditional” Muslims who are conservative in their political views and deeply devout in their religious practices. D’Souza not only stands with conservative Muslims in their protest against the publication of the Danish cartoons, he also argues that we should support Muslims against Israel!

D’Souza’s position is that of Patrick Buchanan who claims that we ought to win Muslim hearts and minds (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005053.html).
Also, Jean-Marie Le Pen is waning in support these days, courtesy of his sell-out to Muslims; the Front National has many immigrant members, and some muslims have been elected.
The political landscape has become confusingly divided, not between left and right, but between an open-ended vision of the future versus.some notion that it should be controlled or managed or perhaps kept stable in a past form.

Although I'm a regular reader of National Review Online, I'm not expert enough to know if NRO's coverage of Islam has generally pulled its punches.

However, I'd like to point everyone to a 2005 NRO article that definitely doesn't pretty up mainstream Islam: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/london200512160955.asp

This article by Josh London is based upon his book about the Barbary pirates vs. post-colonial America and says definitively that serious Muslims are mandated by their religion to conquer and subdue the non-Islamic world and bring it under the control of Islam --- and that this behavior by the Barbary pirates predates by at least 150 years the existence of Israel and the involvement of America in the Middle East.

Islam, after all, doesn't mean "peace," it means "submission" --- or perhaps "the peace of submission."

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read London's book.

"...for the past 25 years"?

From etymonline.com, an online etymological dictionary:

assassin
1531 (in Anglo-L. from c.1237), via Fr. and It., from Arabic hashishiyyin "hashish-users," pl. of hashishiyy, from hashish (q.v.). A fanatical Ismaili Muslim sect of the time of the Crusades, under leadership of the "Old Man of the Mountains" (translates Arabic shaik-al-jibal, name applied to Hasan ibu-al-Sabbah), with a reputation for murdering opposing leaders after intoxicating themselves by eating hashish. The pl. suffix -in was mistaken in Europe for part of the word (cf. Bedouin).

The trend in historical revisionism is simple truncation--an effective twist useful to both those who are within Islam and those who support them, however obliviously. Better to delete history than risk subjecting it to scrutiny, right?

Arundhati is a looney-tunes Communist demagogue from hell.

Does anyone still pay attention to her?

(She sounds like a Muslim too).

Atlantean

Islam considers India as unfinished business.Besides, as India was once ruled by Muslims, Muslims have no alternative but to bring it and Spain, back into the compassionate arms of Islam.

Shyamsunder

Can you elaborate of your use of the word "Xtian".

Shyamsunder's vitriolic attack on the tiny Christian population in India shows in his use of the word "Xtian". He has no difficulty though in writing, "Hindus", or even "Muslims".

Christians are persecuted by fanatic Hindus just as they are in other parts of the world by Muslims. Have a look at Compass Direct or Barnabus Fund sites. I was surprised to see the frequency of such reports. If Christians in India ally with Muslims (and that is just an assertion), then it is an indication where they feel the threat is coming from, as is well documented by the sites above.

He blames Christians, as in "In India, there is an unholy anti-hindu alliance consisting of Indian Commies, Indian muslims and Indian Xtians". Yet over 80% of the population of India is Hindu, and they have voted the Congress Party into power for a large part of post-Independence Indian history, and whose actions have been largely pro-Muslim, and anti-West. If he has to blame anyone, he should blame his fellow Hindus rather then Christians, who are barely 2% of the population, and can have no possible effect on electoral outcomes.

DP111,

It's a common occurrence on religious blogs to try not to offend the Orthodox (some religions have strictures against using actual holy terms in casual conversations or writings, for fear it could get thrown out -- into the trash -- thus, references will not be spelt out in entirety -- the entire name of a holy person -- thus one may see the term J.C. -- just the initials used -- this is not due to some sinister motive, but rather simply from not wishing to offend others. Ok?)

The size of a particular population -- a mere 2 percent -- do you figure that matters? is that the significant factor for you, eh?

Anyway, what the poster has to say does matter -- it's that many East Indian Xtians are pro-Muslim. And, ditto for here in the West. The same is true -- like it or not -- there are any number of pro-Arab, pro-Muslim, supporters of terrorists who are also Xtians here in the West. The other day I just read a tribute to terrorists penned by an Anglican. Is that "news?" I don't think so.

Oh, and do you really want "vitriolic attacks"? as I laugh...hey, just read what that Archbishop has to say about GWBush...and compare it to any Islamist terrorist...The archbishop will have the former appear demonic -- indeed satanic -- and the latter angelic...yeah, now that's Anglican!

DP111,

"tiny Christian population in India"

The 2% number is fiction. The Christian converts have been told by missionaries and the clergy to deliberately lie to the Census officer and keep Hindu names to keep the Hindu majority in the dark - In case you have noticed you face similar problems counting Muslims in Europe

The actual number of Muslims in India is 15-20%

The actual number of Christians in India is 6-10%. Entire regions in India have been converted.

Both the numbers are rapidly increasing far more than the number of Hindus.

The reality on the ground does not match the census numbers - I am sure you are familiar with this problem in your own country.

DP111,
Christians live in peace here, but when I use the word "Christians", I don't mean the missionaries. The missionaries are out seeking sainthood in heaven and target the tribal areas of India. Some will get their sainthoods since they have been successful in many places. I am narrating this incident in my city in which the missionaries earned a lot of "goodwill".

A Hindu girl (4 years old), while out shopping with her parents got lost. She was wandering in the market when a missionary chanced upon her. He took her to the "mercy home", an orphanage run by missionaries. The girl's parents took out ads in the newspaper declaring a reward to anyone who could help. One policeman was moved at the plight of the couple, and took personal interest in the case. He interviewed a lot of people and finally reached mercy home. It took him 7 days to track her. The missionaries said that they were feeding her, since she appeared to be thin. No attempt was made by the missionaries to contact the girl's family. She knew her parents' names and the area where they lived. But no attempt was made by these "holy men" to reunite this girl with her parents. The policeman who tracked her did not press kidnapping charges on them, but they received a lot of bad press.

Christians of my city avoid this "mercy home". We go to the church (yes, I go) that is in the grounds of this mercy home on Christmas Eve. Not on Christmas day. The missionaries have the church to themselves on Christmas. We, the ordinary people do not mix with these sainthood seeking "holy men".

Whatever is the actual size of the Christian population in India, the fact remains that they are small in number - I'm going on the census figures. Problems that are in India, are to be laid at the door of the Hindu majority, and it is dishonest to say the least that Christians are to blame for any of it.

Yes indeed Christians try to convert others to the Christian faith. But they do so in a peaceful manner, and not by violent means. Hindus and others, have that liberty in the West, whether they choose to excercise it or not. I also have noted that some states in India are passing legislation against any conversion away from Hinduism. So much for freedom of conscience.

You give an isolated case of a Hindu girl, but Compass Direct and Barnabus site catalogue a litany of church attacks, murder of priests on a regular basis, and the refusal of police to investigate or bring charges.

Ik
Do you have any basis for the claim that there are 6% to 10% Christians in India? I'm going with the latest census figure.

JS

The Archbishop attacked GWB, a political figure, which is perfectly legitimate, while what we have here is an attack on an intimidated and non-violent minority in India - there is a big difference.

On the question of Christians in India being pro-Muslim, another general and un-substantiated assertion, that is a charge I can level against the entire Hindu political elite of India, and they are the ones who should be held to count, rather then finding scapegoats in a small minority. Besides, if Christians in India were not being victimised they wouldnt be seeking the shelter of a far more vociferous minority, such as Muslims. Either way, the majority ie Hindus, are the ones to answer.

What I find distressing is that Christians are being persecuted around the world, by Muslims in Muslim nations in the main, but also in India by Hindus, and even by Shri Lankan Buddhists. No one takes there part, not even the Christian West, for fear of being labelled a bigot.

And again posters continue with "Xtians", which is rude to say the least. Note, I have not in anyway, responded in kind by epithets or otherwise on Hindus. The continued use of this word, just confirms that Christians are despised in India.

DP111,

My anger and distrust of the Anglicans has little to do with politics per se -- it's their underlying *morality* which I find very, very problematic.

Just a week or so ago I read an article written by some Anglican "priest" (number two in the hierarchy?), and he was calling names and accusing GWBush of all sorts of nefarious deeds -- completely accusatory (that the U.S. invaded Iraq due to greed for oil -- the usual nonsense); 100 percent accusatory in tone, and conversely, kind-hearted and generous towards Muslim terrorists (yes, it's due to their "desperation" and it's all very "understandable"). In other words, the only time these kinds of Anglicans get really, really upset and outraged is if someone has the audacity to defend himself or herself from an Arab/Muslim attacker. It's utterly ridiculous. If they were ever in charge of a justice system -- look out! -- their "morality" would consist in apprehending the police and releasing the criminals. Whenever I read anything written by these kinds of Anglicans, I get dizzy -- their morality is totally distorted -- upside down -- they routinely blame the victims and exonerate the aggressors! And then you wonder why it is that no Christians (there I've spelt out the name -- but why you insist on claiming it's *rude* I don't understand) rescue other Christians?! Well, for me, it's pretty dang obvious -- it's because your coreligionists believe, for example, the Copts are guilty of inciting "violence" against those innocent Egyptians, or the Southern Sudanese should just learn how to be gracious slaves and not resort to all that "violence" against their dear Muslim brethren, etc., etc., for all the other persecuted Christians.

Perhaps, of course, not all Anglicans are like that hideous Archbishop back in jolly ol' England, but I believe the majority of Anglicans *are* like him -- otherwise, they wouldn't be Anglicans.

Anyway, you also have to consider what people like D'Souza argue -- AND who they represent -- and D'Souza speaks for his Christian cohorts and for terrorist Muslims (he provides Muslims with all the excuses Muslims need to commit "violence." He doesn't condemn their violence, he "understands" it.)

JS

Let me first commend you for not using the derogatory term "Xtians". Now we can now engage in a civilised manner.

True it is that the Anglican Christian heirarchy is very pro-Muslim. I have written to the Archbishop many times over the last 5 years, and have recieved nothint but apologia. But then there are others in Anglican priesthood, who do see the danger of Islam. Bishop Nazir Ali, Rev Patrick Sookhdeo, and Archbishop John Sentamu, come to mind immediately. But this attitude of pro-Muslim comes, I suspect from the government itself. There is hardly any doubt that New labour has bent itself out of proportion to appease Muslims, and the Anglican church heirarchy is doing nothing but support the governemnt.

Then again, the Anglican church, is not all there is to it. There are many other demoniations, and in my own experience, church leaders and the laity are quite alert to the Islamic danger to Western civilisation.

But the gyst of my problem with Hindus on this thread is that they singled out Dinesh D'Souza, not for his views on Islam, wrong as they are, but for the fact that he is a Christian. No one on this thread has any idea if Dinesh D'Souza is a practising Christian or not, but they castigated him for that, and then extended it the quite unwarranted and dishonest charge that he was pro-Muslim as a consequence. From that assertion, it then lead to the general charge that all Christians in India were pro-Muslim. Knowing full well that this site catalogues Islamic Jihad, and in the knowledge that India itself has a problem with Muslims in India and attacks from its Muslim neighbours, it follows that Christians in India were being accused of sedition and treason. There is no doubt of this.

I have been googling persecution of Christians worldwide, and what has struck me is the persistent attacks by Hindu mobs on Christians, their churches. This isreplicated by state government acts, particularly those dominated by the BJP. The VHP also comes in for mention.

My point still remains. The Hindus in India, particularly the political elite, come second to none in their appeasement of Muslims. To blame Christians here or in India, is rank dishonesty.

DP111,

"My point still remains. The Hindus in India, particularly the political elite, come second to none in their appeasement of Muslims. To blame Christians here or in India, is rank dishonesty."

Has anyone denied this point in the discussion above. How many Hindu leftists or Muslim appeasing Hindus do you see in public web sites or newsgroups - whenever they show their faces we just wipe the floor with them. They only hang around in password protected mailing lists or delete any comments on their blogs without debating in any way. So, no we do not let them off the hook - we are way waaay harsher in dealing with them - the discussion above is not about them.

I will try and clarify more politely what Shyamsunder was saying above (I think)
Let me give a counter example - there is such a thing as the American Jewish world view (which is primarily leftist and effectively ends up as pro muslim for all practical purposes) - if you criticize it does it mean you are anti-Jewish? Similarly there is an Indian Christian worldview (obviously there are lots of decent Indian Christians who do not buy into it - but that does not negate its existence).
Look at how hard it is for Westerners to categorize D'Souza - on this point he is liberal, on that point he is conservative, on that point he is neocon, on...
The reason for this difficulty is because you are trying to place him in a Western Cultural Matrix - The claim being made here is that he fits more "smoothly" in an Indian Cultural Matrix. (I said Indian not just Hindu or Christian)
Just one statement by him
"The Mughals ruled northern India for 200 years. They could have forcibly converted the Hindus or killed all of them. But they did no such thing."
tells me BINGO - this could only have come from the Indian School System - This is basically what we are taught in school - all of us. A very large percentage of Indian Hindus who do not have access to the Internet would agree with the above statement. That does not make them treasonous (just ignorant - and being ignorant is different from being stupid also)

About the census query - no I do not have proof. I will tell you how I thought through it. At independence the Christians were about 2%. The Indian govt came up with a 2 child policy and everyone followed except muslims. Unlike Europe none of us have any problems producing babies. Hence the Hindu and Christian birth rates are pretty much identical - at independence Christians were around 2% spread out over most states except places like Goa. After 50 years of conversions there are several states with Christian majorities - this would imply that 2% is a fiction (since the muslims do not convert hence almost all the converts are exHindus)

About Christian missionary activity
Proselytization In India: An Indian Christian's Perspective

Western Christian living in India complaining about missionaries

A little theory of mine which you can take with as much salt as you want - The use of shortened words seems to point to a generation gap - you seem to be in your 50's and Shyamsunder seems to be in his 30's (forgive me if I am wrong both of you)- the children of the Internet and SMS tend to have different writing habits. The other fact is that people who grew up before the internet grew up reading books and focusing on language and words - the internet generation reads far more ARTICLES and far fewer books, when you constantly read articles one after another you tend to focus more on concepts than words, so I do not think the word was meant to offend - although the tome might have - my 2 cents FWIW (now theres another acronym)







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
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What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
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“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
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“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
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Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

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Neal Boortz

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“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
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Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

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Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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