Conservatives and reformists are openly challenging President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's hard-line nuclear diplomacy - an unusual agreement across Iran's political spectrum, with many saying his provocative remarks have increasingly isolated their country. -– from this articleThis should not distract or be used as an excuse to do nothing. Those who wish nothing to be done include those who, like Lt. Gen. Odom (ret'd.), think that the "only way" to get Iran to disarm is to force Israel to also give up its nuclear weapons, so that Iran "will follow suit." And that tells you all you need to know about Lt. Gen. Odom, ret'd., and his sinister views of Israel and its right to continue to be able to defend itself and to exist.
But there is also the siren-song sung by those who insist that if no measures are taken, then within Iran a better regime will come to power. And so what? Had the Shah acquired nuclear weapons -- and he certainly wanted to -- then the Khomeini regime would have inherited those weapons. And even if the Shah's son were somehow to take over from those now running the Islamic Republic, given the makeup of the population in Iran, who can say that the Shah's son would not be followed by a regime similar to the one now in power?
One has to plan for the future, the long future. No Muslim country can be permitted to acquire weapons of mass destruction. And where a Muslim country -- i.e. Pakistan -- has managed to do so, with the collaboration of some Westerners and the criminal negligence of several Western powers, then all measures must be taken to ensure that that country lacks the ability to deliver that weaponry. All measures must also be taken to ensure that constant pressure is put on that country to put those weapons, for "permanent safekeeping," into the hands of a powerful, insistent, and if necessary most ferocious non-Muslim power.
It is not only a question of the current regime, but of future regimes in Iran. And it is not only a question of regimes but of groups and groupuscules and individuals who, inspired by their faith, might lay their hands on such weaponry or help other groups to do so. That is the problem.
And that is why those reports of some dissension within the ranks may be of interest, but cannot be allowed to prevent sensible action against that nuclear project itself, however tenuous one may guess or know that a particular unsavory regime is in power.
The existence or possession of such weapons by a state populated by Muslims, whatever the regime in question, is what must not be forgotten.
But of course, much more than a little dissension in the ranks of the Iranian leadership is being used as an excuse to do nothing. Consider: Shah Abbas forced the Armenians and Jews of Tabriz to convert overnight. And there is a direct line from that incident to the sign, required by a law of the Islamic Republic of Iran, in the window of a restaurant that Ms. Nafisi mentioned en passant -- very much en passant. Ms. Nafisi is of course still counting her royalties from the inspirational "Reading 'Lolita' in Tehran," the book that shows there is nothing to worry about because Literature Offers Liberation and a Way Out. But she does casually note, in her uplifting and feelgood narrative, a sign in a restaurant window that let would-be diners know that they should watch out, because the owner was Armenian and hence "najis," unclean.
One wonders how many intelligent people in Iran, or among the Iranians intelligently in exile, wish that Islam had never arrived. For it was a "gift" from far more primitive people, a gift that for the Iranians keeps on giving -- trouble, pain, anguish, mental desarroi. How many secretly would wish they could tow their own country out to sea somewhere, away from the Arabs and the other Muslims, adopt Zoroastrianism or Christianity or nothing at all but the cult of poesy (Sa'adi, Hafiz, Firdowsi, Omar Khayyam) and let Persians, as they see it, be Persians?
But even that wish from so many hearts, unfortunately, is no excuse to do nothing.
"All measures must also be taken to ensure that constant pressure is put on that country to put those weapons, for "permanent safekeeping," into the hands of a powerful, insistent, and if necessary most ferocious non-Muslim power".
Funny-this sounds like someone talking about children playing with matches or knives. But then again, the Islamaniac mentality is so irrational and destructive that Hugh probably is conferring too much maturity on these "children" with this statement anyway.
"Conservatives and reformists are openly challenging President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's hard-line nuclear diplomacy - an unusual agreement across Iran's political spectrum, with many saying his provocative remarks have increasingly isolated their country". -– from this article
And how much of this is theater meant to lull as the nuclear arming goes forward? Muslims are not plain speakers on anything. We have all learned, all too well, that Muslims say one thing in public and another in private. This belief-system does not condemn hypocrisy-deception (as did Christ) but actually permits it.
Re: "Reading 'Lolita' in Tehran"
What a childish idea of freedom. Muslims don't seem to understand that freedom is about the unlimited right to reason, it is not about licence to all behaviors, not about permitting marriage (e.g.) to 6 year old girls. Freedom is about the unlimited right to reason and to express thoughts and opinions based on reason. The Islamic view of what constitutes freedom is infantile.
"The existence or possession of such weapons by a state populated by Muslims, whatever the regime in question, is what must not be forgotten."
...Save this, you will hear it again....
As the military is building up in the Middle East, More troop, More aircraft carriers, 600 Patriot anti missile batteries,more tanks, more artillery, and Turkey is once again allowing American bombers in Turkey...some is afoot...and all appears pointed to Iran.... I would wager this existence or possession of such weapons soon will be no more.....
"The existence or possession of such weapons by a state populated by Muslims, whatever the regime in question, is what must not be forgotten."
...Save this, you will hear it again....
As the military is building up in the Middle East, More troop, More aircraft carriers, 600 Patriot anti missile batteries,more tanks, more artillery, and Turkey is once again allowing American bombers in Turkey...some is afoot...and all appears pointed to Iran.... I would wager this existence or possession of such weapons soon will be no more.....
The Islamic view of what constitutes freedom is infantile.
Posted by: Frank at January 17, 2007 09:18 AM
Sometimes I wonder how old Mo would do on an IQ test given the wonderful "religion" he created-it would not surprise me at all if he'd test below normal. And yet this is supposedly the perfect man to emulate!
Yo General Odom ret.
I'm a pacifist. I'm going to tell my neighbor that I'm going to throw away my guns. Maybe he will throw away his and we will be safe neighbors.
Please stay retired.
Thank you.
ISLAMSFORLOSERS-
"War is deception" as per the "perfect man". I can just imagine a Borat style comedian pretending to be Mohammad and saying, "Islam is a religion of absolute honesty, it requires no deception of any person". (laughter.) "We are not permitted to deceive any person under any circumstances. Mohammad taught the same thing as Jesus on that". (Laughter)...... Maybe Mohammad was perfect re deception.
The mother of the character Borat (Borat's father raped her) regretted that she was not raped by another man. I wonder if Mohammad's mother is someplace complaining and having similar wishes re Mohammad.
I could not agree more with the above article. Both the West and Russia should have taken care of this issue properly (bomb Iran) decades ago, immediately upon the Islamic Republic was established, and saved an enormous amount of suffering and risk for the whole world this way. It is of course nice that there are Iranians opposing the regime and disliking Islam, perhaps we can even assume that there are some Iranians who are not against the state of Israel, but there is no any evidence that they are very numerous. Possibly, they dislike Arabs and consider them far less civilized than they are themselves, - however, this doesn´t necessarily mean that they don´t share the Arab view that Israel should be destroyed. Iranians have been influenced by Islam (that they have adopted in their vast majority) for so many centuries that it is childish to assume they would be happy to throw it away. EU and Russias benevolence towards Iran is really very disturbing, - one cannot but assume that the reason for EU insisting on diplomatic means only in relationship with Iran is shared Antisemmitism.
Right on Hugh.
And the dissension must not be a distraction from Israel's obligation to bomb the crap out of all Iranian nuclear and missile sites in the immediate future.
(with or preferably without that useless tit on a bull, Olmert, who should have resigned with his defence minister)
Lt. Gen. Odom, ret'd.
retarded or retired?
I cannot see how we can militarily deal with Iran. All Iran has to do is to make the strait of Hormuz impassable to oil tankers and bomb the Saudi oil fields. No more oil.
Re: "Reading 'Lolita' in Tehran"
What a childish idea of freedom. Muslims don't seem to understand that freedom is about the unlimited right to reason, it is not about licence to all behaviors, not about permitting marriage (e.g.) to 6 year old girls. Freedom is about the unlimited right to reason and to express thoughts and opinions based on reason. The Islamic view of what constitutes freedom is infantile.
Frank, while I agree with your core idea here I'd say you don't go far enough. The same thing applies to many persons within the United States. We hear so much bluster about 'my rights' and nothing about 'my duties' or 'my responsibilities'. Freedom is not simply a license for girls to go wild at spring break, but I think most people would frame it in those kinds of terms if you asked them for a definition. The concept of Freedom in the United States seems to have moved into a 'personal license' area where people are free to leave a trail of damage in their personal lives if duty or responsibility interferes with personal convenience or pleasures. This loss of context harms our ability as a nation to frame this war correctly.
If all 'ways' are equal and good, then no direction is preferrable. Our ship of state will drift in the fog.
exsgtbrown - I hope you're right; if not, well . . . .
The second Holocaust will not be like the first
"Benny Morris believes that the Iranian regime will annihilate Israel with nuclear weapons, and nobody will stop it in doing so. Morris used to have the reputation of being an Anti-Zionist, but he rejects the accusation that he questions Israel's right of existence. In this article written for DIE WELT, Morris explains why he is convinced that sometime in the future millions of
Israelis will be murdered." :
One bright morning,
in five or ten years' time, perhaps during a regional crisis, perhaps out of the blue, a day or a year or five years after Iran's acquisition of the Bomb, the mullahs in Qom will covoke in secret session, under a portrait of the steely-eyed Ayatollah Khomeini, and give President Ahmedinejad, by then in his second or third term, the go ahead. The orders will go out and the Shihab III and IV missiles will take off for Tel Aviv, Beersheba, Haifa, and Jerusalem, and probably some military sites, including Israel's half dozen air and (reported) nuclear missile bases. Some of the Shihabs will be nuclear-tipped, perhaps even with multiple warheads. Others will be dupes, packed merely with biological or chemical agents, or old newspapers, to draw off or confuse Israel's anti-missile batteries and Home Guard units.
[..]
With a country the size and shape of Israel (an elongated 8,000 square
miles), probably four or five hits will suffice: No more Israel. A million or
more Israelis, in the greater Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem areas, will die
immediately. Millions will be seriously irradiated. Israel has about seven
million inhabitants. No Iranian will see or touch an Israeli. It will be quite
impersonal.
Some of the dead will inevitably be Arab. 1.3 million of Israel's citizens
are Arab and another 3.5 million additional Arabs live in the semi-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Jerusalem, Tel Aviv-Jaffa and Haifa have substantial Arab minorities. And there are large Arab concentrations immediately around Jerusalem (in Ramallah-El Bireh, Bir Zeit, Bethlehem), and outside Haifa. Here, too, many will die, immediately or by and by.
It is doubtful whether such a mass killing of fellow Muslims will trouble
Ahmedinejad and the mullahs. The Iranians don't especially like Arabs,
especially Sunni Arabs, with whom they have intermittently warred for centuries.
[..]
. . . he may well take into account a counter-strike and simply, irrationally
(to our way of thinking), be willing to pay the price.
As his mentor, Khomeini, put it in a speech in Qom in 1980: 'We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah … I say, let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant …' For these worshipers at the cult of death, even the sacrifice of the homeland is acceptable if the outcome is the demise of Israel.
Read it all:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eejh/message/63915
Malinois: Who is Benny Morris? Dick Morris' retarded cousin? What a fucking idiot. Iran nuking Jerusalem, the second holiest place in Islam?! LMFAO!!
In general, Muslim regimes need Israel because, basically, they need someone to blame for their failed nations.
A_Plague_on_Both_Houses
That's an excellent argument.
I frequently run into people who say, "I understand someone must fight for America, but not my children."
More astounding than that is, when I heard from a man who had been a conscript at one time, telling me that the military is a waste of money and time.
Just only yesterday, someone here at JW said, "Oh, you're quiting on the rest of us," While with the same breath, he said, "My son wants to serves, but I won't let him." --I understand, he can't stop it, if his son is seriously about signing up to serve.
The sad example of fredom to reasoning has been to often been exploited, in which some argues that, "There is no God; therefore, everything is permissible. So you may do whatever you wish, for as long as you are not caught."
At one point I encountered a book called "America, A Nation Adrift," but I don't remember who wrote it. You probably have read it too.
Using the vernacular of some of my favorite commenters here; 'AMEN' Hugh!
1) There is dissent in the ranks of Iran's ruling elite. No sane persons want to see their own country and their own people destroyed over the messianic delusions of Ahmadinejad. At least, using the odds of probability, one would think such sane persons exist.
2) The dissent in Iran must not be an excuse for us to let our guard down. Allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons will, IMHO, be the worst mistake of our generation.
3) Israel must not, under any circumstances, disarm herself. Israel has had nuclear weapons for a long time and has not used them. Let alone threaten to wipe anyone off the map as Ahmadinejad has. It is a ridiculous farce for anyone, especially Iran and/or Syria to suggest that since Israel has nukes, then Iran has a valid claim for nukes. That is laughable to even contemplate.
All measures must also be taken to ensure that constant pressure is put on that country to put those weapons, for 'permanent safekeeping,' into the hands of a powerful, insistent, and if necessary most ferocious non-Muslim power.
Agreed. But considering the UN and its composition, how to achieve that will present a problem. Consider the troublesome and meddlesome Russia and China to name but two. So how do we, the U.S., achieve that? We could do it unilaterally but will our present congress ever go along with such a proposition?
I don't want to sound depressing. We must try to keep our spirits up. Nevertheless, this is a problem we must face. Our elected leaders need to be more fully informed about the dangers of Islam and we must try to counteract the misinformation spread by CAIR.
Any other ideas? Anyone?
And who is george_rem? One of the "do nothing" types?
Too lazy to even open a link and read the full essay?
Too lazy to explore further why someone might conclude
that Iran intends to obliterate Israel?
Why? Simply, because he never heard of Benny Morris?
Fortunate for the multitudes, in various parts of our republic, whose minds george_rem has enlightened on the subject of Iranian policy.
I shall never forget his comments at JW--the extraordinary emotion it excited in my own mind--the powerful impression it created--the applause which followed from the beginning to the end of his felicitous remarks: "Muslim regimes need Israel because, basically, they need someone to blame for their failed nations."
Deep, very deep.
"Any other ideas? Anyone?"
Close down the UN and start actually acting like the most powerful military on earth. Start looking after our own survival interests.
I wonder if Mohammad's mother is someplace complaining and having similar wishes re Mohammad.
Posted by: Frank at January 17, 2007 09:53 AM
I damn well hope so-her and the mothers of Stalin and Hitler.
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20%
Of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz
Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewai
Economics:
(none)
Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad
**************************************************
The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloc h
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger
Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel
Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause
maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims.
The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics.
The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their
problems.
Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part , the following two
sentences really say it all:
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
But I'll keep rooting for Zoroastrianism there.
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence."
That'll be the day [head thrown back and laughing to the point of urination]!!
"No Muslim country can be permitted to acquire weapons of mass destruction. And where a Muslim country -- i.e. Pakistan -- has managed to do so, with the collaboration of some Westerners and the criminal negligence of several Western powers, then all measures must be taken to ensure that that country lacks the ability to deliver that weaponry."
It's a nice theory but it ignores a reality: the very countries that gave Pakistan (and now Iran) the ability to produce nuclear weapons are also selling them the delivery systems.
In order of culpability: Russia, China, France.
The Cold War trading system is passe. We no longer have trading blocs based on ideology. Everyone's a customer. Capital knows no borders and it has no ideology. If American companies are permitted to sell missile systems to foreign countries, they will. The shareholder's interests are paramount. Otherwise we wouldn't be tranferring all of our industrial capacity to China. The idea of embargoing certain technologies just won't work. To quote Mr. Spock: "miltary secrets are the most fleeting of all". We couldn't even prevent Iraq from selling oil on the black market. We certainly can't prevent Russia from transferring technology to Iran and then to Syria or any other country that wants it. Capitalism rules. Free trade is the game.
What about India? It's not secure by any means. Isn't there a large Muslim population within India, even after the partition?
Britain has its own nuclear weapons already and it will soon be a Muslim country. France, too. What do we do with them?
enough is enough-
Jews also invented the cell-phone (at Motorola-Israel) that Muslims use to kill Jews and others. Muslims should stop using cell-phones for religious and safety reasons.
Oh come on ssa, you know who that someone is, why not state it?
And guess what, yes, I lied, I will let him serve so be advised there are others coming hard in the future. It is amazing to me that third worlders come here and have the unmitigated nerve to condemn us. Why did you come here and what are your motives to stay?