Muslims' march through Nazareth "meant to intimidate Christians"

"Celebrating" Eid al-Adha with threats and intimidation. "Muslims shout at Jesus' home: 'Islam will dominate the world'," by Aaron Klein for World Net Daily:

NAZARETH – Islamic groups held a large militant march down the main streets of Nazareth this weekend, highlighting for some here the plight of Christians in this ancient city where Muslims have become a majority and members of the dwindling Christian population say they suffer regular intimidation.
[...]
The Islamic Movement, the main Muslim political party in Nazareth, said it organized yesterday's march to celebrate Eid ul-Adha, or the Feast of the Sacrifice, which commemorates the Muslim belief Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Ishmael for Allah.
Christian and Jewish faith dictates it was Isaac, not Ishmael, whom Abraham almost sacrificed.
Islamic Movement leaders paraded down Nazareth's main thoroughfare brandishing their party's green flag. Young Muslim men in battle gear marched and beat drums as a man on loudspeaker repeatedly exclaimed in Arabic, "Allah is great."
Hundreds of activists strutted screaming Islamist epithets, including "Islam is the only truth" and "Islam shall rule all."
Tens of thousands of Nazareth residents, seemingly mostly Muslim, congregated on the streets as the march passed by. Muslim children launched firecrackers into the sky, occasionally misfiring, with the small explosives landing dangerously close to the crowds.
Many of the town's Christian residents stayed away from the event, with the exception of Christian shopkeepers who worked in the area. WND observed as several Muslim youth marching in the parade started to charge at three local Christian shopkeepers but the youth stopped short.
While the march was billed as a celebration, it's militant virtues were clearly visible. The event seemed more a show of force than a street party.
"The march is meant to intimidate Christians," said Saleem, a Nazareth Christian resident who asked that his last name be withheld for fear of what he said was "Muslim retaliation" for speaking out.
"It's part of the methods used by the Muslims in very obvious ways to create an atmosphere where the Christians should know the Muslims are the main power and we are not welcome anymore," Saleem said.
Ahmed Zohbi, a member of Nazareth's municipal council and the leader of an umbrella group consisting of the city's Islamic parties, denied Saleem's accusations, claiming there is "no problem" between Christians and Muslims in Nazareth.
"We just want to celebrate. The Muslims have nothing against our Christian brothers. Our communities may have differences but we live a peaceful coexistence," Zohbi told WND.
But Christians interviewed here said otherwise. Like Bethlehem's Christians, those in Nazareth spoke of attacks against Christian-owned shops and told stories of Christian women being raped by Muslim men. They noted several instances of interreligious violence and Muslim riots they said began when Muslims attacked Christian worshippers. The Muslims claimed Christians started the violence.
Israeli security officials say the majority of anti-Christian violence in Nazareth goes unreported because local Christians are too afraid to report crimes.
One Christian resident said violence and intimidation tend to increase around the time of local elections. The Islamic parties, once in the minority, are now one seat away from dominating Nazareth's city council.
"During the last elections, Muslims on the streets were openly threatening the Christians. They tried to stop some of the Christian cars from voting," said Saleem.
In October 2000, the Arab Christian mayor of Nazareth, Ramiz Jaraisy, was reportedly beaten by members of the opposing Islamist party.
Nazareth's Christian population, at times the majority during the city's long history, is now at about 37 percent, according to the Israeli Bureau of Statistics, which notes a regular downward trend.
The situation mirrors similar trends in West Bank and Gaza cities controlled or dominated by Muslim Arabs.
Siham el-Fahum, a Muslim Nazareth municipality member and a local historian, admits Christians are fleeing her city because of Christian-Muslim tension.
"There is no doubt the situation for Christians in Nazareth is bad," el-Fahum told WND.
"Christians like to live where life can be good for them, whereas Muslims are more attached to the community and will stay through tough times. Muslims in the city want more dominance and the only way to achieve that, logically, is at the expense of Christians. It's a delicate balancing act that is having negative consequences for Christians."
Like many Muslims here, el-Fahum claimed Christians several times "instigated" Muslim riots. But she said in the struggle for power, "the Muslims are definitely on the rise."
She said the core of the conflict began in 1998, when Israel approved a local Muslim request to build a mosque in front of the Church of the Annunciation.
Muslims wanted to build the mosque at an adjacent, 6,500-square-foot site, which they say is the burial place of a nephew of Saladin, the Muslim commander who led the army that defeated the Crusaders in 1187. The site previously housed a public school.
Christians charge the site was not previously considered holy by Muslims and that the planned mosque is meant to overwhelm the church.
Dave Parsons, a spokesman for the International Christian Embassy, said the proposed mosque might contain multiple spires that would tower over the Annunciation Church's large, black-coned dome.
In 2002, Israel rescinded permission to construct the mosque following worldwide outcry and protests from the Vatican and White House.
Nazareth Muslims temporarily occupied the site and erected a tent mosque. Islamic Movement leaders demanded Nazareth officials deed the property over to local Muslim authorities.
Muslims hold regular prayer services at the site neighboring the Annunciation church throughout the week, usually drawing large numbers of worshippers on Fridays.
Yesterday's afternoon service, attended by WND, was preceded by a sermon delivered by a prominent local sheik, who shouted into a loudspeaker, "Islam will dominate the world.".
The sermon could be heard by clergy inside the Annunciation church.
The Islamic Movement's Zohbi told WND he is "optimistic" the mosque will eventually be built.
"It's just a matter of time before we (the Islamic parties) dominate the city council and then the situation will be different," he said.
Zohbi claimed the Muslim stake to the Nazareth site predates Christianity's. He said the Church of the Annunciation "was built in the 1950s."
While the church structure was indeed completely rebuilt in 1955, several previous churches there date back to the 5th century, about the same time the original Church of the Nativity was constructed in Bethlehem.
The original Annunciation church was destroyed during Muslim conquests. Reconstructed versions were burned during Crusader losses in the region. The church was rebuilt again in 1730, then later enlarged in 1877.
Archeologists say the first shrine at the church site was constructed in the middle of the 4th century, comprising an altar in the cave in which Mary is said to had lived.
Zohbi said he would only lead "peaceful" protests to built the mosque. Muslims in Nazareth have "no interest" in tensions or further violence with local Christians, he claimed.
But El-Fahum said it was only a matter of time before another round of anti-Christian riots were sparked.
"The tension is very palatable [sic]. The Christians know it. The situation is a powderkeg that can explode again at any time."
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53 Comments

"She said the core of the conflict began in 1998, when Israel approved a local Muslim request to build a mosque in front of the Church of the Annunciation."

israel is digging the grave for christians?

we will never learn

Islam will dominate the world...at what ?
It`s adherents think 7th century and live in
7th century conditions.
Keep shouting muslims your inferiority complex is
showing again...like the insignificant obnoxious
lout who wants to be noticed.

May God have mercy on those Muslims who THINK they are doing God a favor by attacking God's TRUE children.

John 16:2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.
While this was primarly used in the context of Christians being persecuted by the Sanhedrin, today, the only ones who think they are pleasing God by killing, raping and attacking Christians are the Mooselimbs.

It seems the Israeli Government hasn't only just forgotten the nature of its enemies under Olmert, but it seems as if this malaise was around nine years ago, back in 1998. But what applies to Israel also applies to the West. The West has failed to realise that political correctness stops our troops from operating effectively against the Islamic enemy. It is a ridiculous position we are in when our troops face a courtroom jury when they shoot a possum-playing terorist in Falluja, and when the Israelis get hammered by the Western politicians and media for daring to act in self-defence. Worse still, this same political correctness stops us from doing what is absolutely vital - shedding a spotlight on Islam and its tenets, and geting through to all the basic fact that the duty of a Muslim is to wage war against the whole of the infidel world, and not stop until the entire planet is Islamic and Islam becomes the universal faith. Our politicians sound even more pathetic every day with their 'Islam is a religion of peace' broken record mantra, when historical evidence proves overwhelmingly otherwise. Putting that religion under intense scrutiny is the central plank in winning the fight for our civilization, but sadly our leaders and media refuse to see that, and will only see that when it is much too late and after all else has failed. We have so much material to work with. You can kill terrorists, but without an attack on the belief system as well, we will be acting in self defence for centuries, responding to atrocities rather than making the running, and probably achieve little. Such an approach can only lead to death by a thousand cuts for our civilization.

Hundreds of activists strutted screaming Islamist epithets, including "Islam is the only truth" and "Islam shall rule all."

I don't know how many hundred's of millions of Muslims must keep shouting this before the majority of Westerners wake up. Everyday, on every topic, in every Muslim inhabitation, it is always the same.

This comes from the Koran.

"Skeptics Annotated Quran"

See chapter 8, Spoils of War, and chapter 9, Repentance for example.

That's why the Quran is not a valid book for oaths for any purpose in the U.S. Virgil Goode was right.

Why don't the Muslims just kill all the Christians and be done with it? We didn't stop them from doing it in Sarajevo, why would we stop them in Nazareth?

8:1 They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.

Quran 8:1

Google search


"Islam will dominate the world." Quran

723 hits


"Islam will dominate the world." Jihad Watch

November 14, 2004
Islam(ists) and religious world domination
By James Arlandson American Thinker

"As for Islam, the Quran states unequivocally the superiority and triumph of Islam over all religions in three different verses: 61:9, 48:28, and 9:33. We analyze these three verses methodically."


Masada 2000 Islam

"It's part of the methods used by the Muslims in very obvious ways to create an atmosphere where the Christians should know the Muslims are the main power and we are not welcome anymore,"

This is a technique that should, and must, be turned against Moslems where they are NOT YET the "Main Power" in such places as the US.

No, no stupid marches and shouting or charges against Moslem shopkeepers--N0 physical violence.

A reaffirmation that WE (non-Moslems) are the "Main Power," and that Moslems are not welcome here.

Such acts as not patronizing Moslem establishments, buying from corporations under Moslem control (Ethan Allen furniture comes to mind), and treating Moslems not with disrespect but with a coldness that shows them that they are a foreign element that is not invited into the fabric of the nation.

This goes against the grain for most of us. the Moslems that are seen (recognized mostly by the hijab-wearing females) are in many cases attractive people with cute children.

will these Moslems side with us when push comes to shove? Who knows? They are suspect. A coldness towards them might keep them from becoming too comfortable in the "world of war," which they probably or possibly might not object to becoming part of the world of Islam.

The latter is undesirable, hence, we must sacrifice and subdue our natural inclination to be friendly to all (if you are burdened with such a defect), and exude vibrations that signal "We are the main power here, and we intend to remain so."

(There are further techniques listed somewhere that I have to locate. If anyone is interested, I shall provide a link to them.)

An Interview that Never Happened Ali Sina

Muslim terrorists are following the footsteps of their prophet. They are waging Jihad against all non-Muslims. The intent is to take over the world and make Islam dominant. Don’t you read the placards they carry during their angry demonstrations and riots? “Islam will dominate the world”. That is their slogan.

Islam expanded with warfare. Muhammad boasted: “I have been made victorious with terror”. (Bukhari 4.52.220.) He raided villages and took the civilians by surprise, killed unarmed men and took their wives and children as war booty.

Playing victim is part of their game. Muslims victimize others and then turn around and blame their victims.

...

Ten things are essentially najis in Isalm: 1. Urine 2. Feces 3. Semen 4. Dead body 5. Blood 6. Dog 7. Pig 8. The sweat of an animal who eats najis things 9. Alcoholic beverages 10. Kafir (i.e you and I).

These are all hate speeches. We must ask Muslims for accountability. Where do they stand? Do they really believe in these hateful teachings? Do they think we, the unbelievers, are as filthy as urine and feces? Do they think we are worse than the vilest animals because we do not believe in their cult? Do they agree with the Quran that says we should be slain? Do they want to instill terror in our hearts, smite our necks and chop our fingertips? Muslims must be asked these questions and we must decide whether we can live with people who hate us so much or not. If they think we are as unclean as urine and feces why they come here. Let them go back to their “pure lands”.

The West has failed to realise that political correctness stops our troops from operating effectively against the Islamic enemy

"The West" - what exactly is The West ?

Very few political leaders in The West are Christian...........most are self-serving pseudo-Marxists who believe Christianity is just another constituency to be bought off with false promises, but whose personal behaviour and morality is not influenced one iota by any gospel save a devotion to power and money.

There are so few politicians who really believe in what their public believes.............they are slick operators and have no values...............just look how many times the House of Commons toilets test positive for cocaine and how often the sordid lives of the political class bubble to the surface.

These people weaken the resolve of The West

Those doing the marching and intimidating would, if the Israeli government had sense, be promptly expelled for such delibeate infliction of terror. And perhaps an open invitation could be made to Christians, Believers in and out of the Middle East, to come to take the place of all Muslims so expelled. A Christian presence in Bethlehem and Nazareth is particularly important; it could consist of some Arabic-speaking Christians, or of others, from the Philippines or India or sub-Saharan Africa or Western Europe or Latin America or North America, who will come to live, either permanently or on a rotating basis, to maintain that Christian presence against the intimidations and threats of local Muslims and of Islam.

This is not an impractical idea.

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Hilali and Khan, parenthetical notes are theirs)


November 14, 2004
Islam(ists) and religious world domination
By James Arlandson

"Also, early Islam speaks almost exclusively of Christianity as the major roadblock to world submission and domination, and it is this major religion that Muhammad confronts in his later unprovoked military campaigns."

November 14, 2004
Islam(ists) and religious world domination
By James Arlandson

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

You muslims have bet the farm on the wrong god. Good luck, you'll need it.

If Creeping Islamism continues at its present pace, the time will come, not tomorrow, not next year, but the time will come when Westerners (Christians and Jews) out of complete frustration will take matters into their own hands. At that point all hell will break loose. Mohammedans are complaining now; soon they will really have something to carp about.

The branch may bend, but it will not break, and when the branch snaps back, whoever is trying to break it will get a broken nose and more.

Dear Muslims in Nazareth, all of this march shows who you are truly serving, and it is not the TRUE GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Isreal. This also shows that none of yous have any respect for Jesus even in His boyhood town. May God have mercy on yous so that you can turn away from the "Father of Lies".

Old Atlantic, granted the Qur'an is not a valid book for declaring oaths, but frankly neither is the Bible or any other "sacred text" there is wiggle room in all "sacred texts".

How valid would it be for you or any Christian or Jew to swear upon the Qur'an (or Shakespeares completed works, or Websters Dictionary, or the P.I.G. to Islam?)

Why does anyone think that a muslim swearing on a Bible is efficacious? Would your word be trusted if you swore on the Qur'an? I doubt it.. and the hand on the holy book swearing exercise is a pure photo op, the real swearing in takes place before the photo op and is conducted without placing the hand on anything. Just as I took my oath as a commissioned officer, by holding my right hand erect and repeating the oath of office, my left hand was at my side.

These people are SICK.

Muslims are guilty of the very " Humiliations " they accuse others of commiting against them.

To them Only Muslims suffer and only Muslims are treated cruely and unjustly.

How anyone in the West can have even the slightest bit of sympathy for these Monsters is quite beyond my capacity for logic and common sense!

Peace and Tolerance is a two way street, But in Islam as in the entire Middle East , every road is " One way " , their way!

Nariz,

The Quran has been used in two declarations of war on the United States, by Tripoli in 1786 from Amb Adja to Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, and by
bin Laden in 1998. We are currently in the war on terror, which is the war bin Laden declared in 1998 using the Quran.

The US has not fought wars declared on other books that are also used to take oaths on in the US. German officers swore a loyalty oath to Hitler, we didn't use Mein Kampf for oaths during WWII.

John Quincy Adams said the Koran declares perpetual war against non-Muslims.


See prior Jihad Watch comments for quotes and links.

The Quran contains the Verse of the Sword, slay them where you can find them, meaning Jews and Christians. Bin Laden has said kill Americans, civilian and military, where you can find them.

The point of a both used to swear an oath is the statement it makes by the society and the effect on the oath taker. A society that allows a text declaring war on it to be used as an oath is making a symbolic statement that it doesn't believe in anything.

When a society says it doesn't believe in anything, its saying it doesn't expect the oath taker to be bound by their oath. US behavior in so many ways says that, that its a major message of the US.

The oath taker also gets a message that he is conquering the US, and that his oath symbolizes his war of conquest. To their side, the Quran does have meaning. They think their oaths are meaningful.

We think oaths have no meaning. They know that and that gives them more contempt towards us. Bottom line, Americans will die because Ellison takes the oath on the Quran.

Nariz - are you at all capable of making a point pertinent to the article? Your diversionary tactics are transparent - revealing only a moral and intellectual insecurity of the sort that always arises from ignorance.

The time may very well come in the near future to defend Christianity and the persecuted Christians living in Palestinian territories.

That begs the question. Exactly who will defend Arab Christians and Christian places of worship from the increasing hostility of conquesting Muslims?

Hopefully, courageous western nations that are are not lulled to sleep by political correctness will take some action and defend Christians before they become extinct in the Middle East.

Will Mohammedans in Dearborn start marching through non-Mohammedan neighborhoods protesting whatever the hell it is they protest, Friday night football perhaps, highschool proms on Friday, or how about immoral mixing of the sexes? It will happen, someday, sooner or later.

"The West" - what exactly is The West ?

Posted by: Voyager at January 1, 2007 05:02 PM

The "Middle East" - what exactly is The Middle East? An equally asinine question.
How about this: The West is Western Europe and the people within its territorial boundaries?

But I did get the politically correct aspect of what you meant. i.e. the "West" is undefinable, it belongs to no one and yet everyone. Or some other such nonsense.

Or, the societies of Europe and their close genealogical, linguistic, philosophical, and cultural descendants, which include those countries whose dominant culture is derived from European culture. Thus, you may add the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and even Israel as part of the West.

"Zohbi claimed the Muslim stake to the Nazareth site predates Christianity's".

Of course-Islam predates eveything, including the Big Bang-in its neverending quest to prove that all belongs to its god. This sort of foolishness reminds me of how the USSR used to claim inventing everything from genetics to baseball back in the 1950's. People laughed at the commies back then for their insane claims and people should laugh at today's nutty claims that Islamania makes. Both suffer from delusional claims of grandiosity.

Full responsiblity for the plight of Nazareth's Christians is on the Israelis who control the city and do nothing to prevent this. In fact, the Israelis openly favour the Muslims over the Christians every time.

"Israeli security officials say the majority of anti-Christian violence in Nazareth goes unreported because local Christians are too afraid to report crimes" in the article above.

BULL! Just as the attack on Nazareth's mayor was reported and little done, every time Christians report abuse by Muslims, Jewish police officers tell them they deserve it. Then the Israeli police simply file it away as "Arab on Arab crime" even though the perpetrators are ALWAYS Muslims and the victims Christians.

One Palestinian Christian friend from Nazareth told me the police told her "You're a Christian, why don't you move to America. There's no room for Christians like you in Israel".


"Those doing the marching and intimidating would, if the Israeli government had sense, be promptly expelled for such deliberate infliction of terror." wrote Hugh above.

Israel has never shown any inclination to support its Christian population. Israeli policy does not distinquish between Christians and Muslims simply classifying them all as "Arabs".

Although some here wrongly accuse the Palestinian Christians of Islamo-christianity, it is Israeli policy that has forced them into this untenable situation. Caught between Muslim oppression and Jewish discrimination, it is any wonder that Christianity is dying in the land of its birth. Remember. the destruction of Bethlehem's Christians was already underway when Israel ruled Bethlehem, not to mention the destruction of Jerusalem's Christian community under then mayor Ehud Olmert.

Unless Israel changes its policies and shows a willingness to accept its Palestinian Christian population, its future will remain insecure. Faced with the Muslim demographic timebomb, Israelis should realize that the fate of local Christians today will be the fate of Jews tommorow.

This disgusts me. Perhaps the world needs another crusade to the Middle East.

I will be damned if I have to ask an Imam about how to live every aspect of my life. I have been to www.askimam.org for the last few days, and it's absolutely pathetic that these people have to ask "an expert" about the perfect way to go to the toilet, take a shower, and whether urine in my undies makes me unclean for prayer. What a pathetic, law-based cult Islam is. No Gospel, no hope...just useless rules started by a pedo.

The pathway is narrow oh sons of a rock worshipper. Christ! Not unmighty mo!

It's a dual loyalty problem, sacred books of religions other then Islam don't set up a religious political entity (the umma and shariya) to which the believer is supposed to be loyal over loyalty to his own state.

The muslim teaching on a muslim serving in an infidel army killing other muslims is that it's grieviously forbidden, the Koran forbids even friendships with unbelievers. So a muslim individual in the US army being sworn in on the Koran would be committing perjury, either by falsely claiming loyalty to the Koran, or by falsely claiming loyalty to the US armed forces, because they each command two mutually exclusive things. Same way Ellison, when he used the Koran for his swearing in, committed perjury, the Koran and its' shariya and the things it commands is mutually exclusive with the US Constitution, you can't swear by one to uphold the other, either you are lying about your loyalty to the Koran or the Constitution.

And of course, here is an example of what the dual loyalty problem can lead to....

"In April, a sergeant in the Army's 101st Airborne Division was convicted of murder and attempted murder for a grenade and rifle attack that killed two officers and wounded 14 soldiers in Kuwait during the opening days of the 2003 invasion.

Hasan Akbar, a 34-year-old Muslim who was sentenced to death, told investigators he staged the attack because he was upset that American troops would kill fellow Muslims."


Under the Bible that is homicide, and a despicable act. Under the Koran it is glorious martyrdom, and the guy gets 72 virgins. Which is why the Bible is suitable for oaths in the US and the Koran is not. If someone opts to not use the Bible because he doesn't believe in it, that's fine and in keeping with American traditions of freedom of religion. But swearing on a holy book (Koran) that orders violent abolition of the American traditions of freedom of religion is not acceptable, because believing in divinely ordained violent abolition of freedom of religion and believing in defending freedom of religion are mutually exclusive concepts, and Ellison can't possible believe them both, either he is lying about one or the other.

"some here wrongly accuse the Palestinian Christians of Islamo-christianity, it is Israeli policy that has forced them into this untenable situation..."
-- from a posting above

Have some of those clever "Palestinian" islamochristian parishioners been winning you over? Because what you now say -- backtracking on previous views -- is wrong. Any "Palestinian" Christians who say, with a straight face, that the real problem is Israel and the Israelis, is simply reflecting several things. These are, again:

1. A lifetime of trying to curry favor with Muslim Arabs and to fit in, or at least to deflect their hostility, by parroting their views.

2. A belief in the importance of "Uruba" or "Arabness" as connected to Islam, so that even a Christian Arab, or at times even an Arabic-speaking Christian non-Arab, will convince himself, or have grown up in a setting suffused with the assumption that to "be an Arab" is necessarily to adopt and promote the Muslim worldview, including that of the Lesser Jihad against Israel.

3. "Palestinian" Christians such as Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, and Michel Sabbag have a history of loyal collaboration with Arafat, the PLO, and Arafat's successors. They have promoted the anti-Israel cause, and weakened the only state, Israel, that stands in the way of a complete Muslim takeover of the Holy Land. And what good has it done the local Arab Christians? For all that pro-"Palestinian" work, they have been driven out of Bethlehem, and instead of constituting 80% of the population now constitute 30%, and are now beginning to be terrorized in Nazareth, and elsewhere.

Don't listen to those smooth "Palestinian" operators whose behavior and attitudes can be explained by #1, #2, and #3 above.

Provoslavni,

With every move that Israel makes the main stream media, especially those in the US, views with a microscope looking for any miscue the IDF may make.If an errant bullet hits a civilian that will get headlines worldwide and Israel will hear the condemnations from all countries. It has come out lately, which comes as no great shock to me, that some of the so called atrocities that the IDF was charged of were staged.A people that will blow themselves up will not give second thought to killing their own citizens and then pointing the finger at Israel because they know the biased media in the US wont really look but will take pictures and print stories and point the finger and say "see what they are doing to the poor people of Lebanon". Just look at Iraq where they kill innocent civilians and point the finger at us as the cause and our wonderful media makes Americans feel as if we pulled the trigger that killed these civilians.
I checked several of the main stream media websites in hopes that this news story about Nazareth was there and alls I found aside from stories of how Saddam`s justified hanging will encourage more violence,as if they needed another excuse,and a story at the AP about Jordan`s king saying Jews smell.You see how disinterested the media is to the plight of Christians there and everywhere.And yet if these were Christians marching on a mosque it would have been headlines and the poor islamics would be shown as the oppressed.PC says Jesus bashing is in muhammed bashing is out.

There are some graphic pictures on this site of the slaughter of helpless animals as part of their barbaric Eid al-Adha. Where's PETA when they are actually needed ?

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos#comment-47127

^^^ Man Muslims just love to slit throats . Camels, Goats, Cows...INFIDELS!!

It's like somebody who's been bullied at work coming home and kicking the cat. Oh, but I'm forgetting - the Arabs kicked Israeli ass last summer, didn't they. Poor old Israel had to run wailing to the UN in its desperation for a cease fire.

wallyUK,

Your foolish comment helps the muslim Jihad, rather than opposes it. The thought processes it comes from are also what the jihadis want (division among the "infidels"). The various anonymous muslims who monitor this site likely smiled, and will smile, when they read what you wrote. Sometimes it is better to not post every idea which enters your skull. Think about it.

When will we start selecting texts from the bible to justify our own jihad. It has worked in the past.

These idiots are just bullies that will run and hide when confronted with equal force. One only has to look at recent events in Somalia when the Ethiopians came rushing in. I have been in many fights myself when I was younger, and sometimes when the person that was instigating a fight with me backed down after he knew I was serious about kicking his ass. I say lets call there bluff, find out where some of them live and meet force with force!!!!!!!!!!

Hugh,

You asked me: "Have some of those clever "Palestinian" islamochristian parishioners been winning you over? Because what you now say -- backtracking on previous views -- is wrong. Any "Palestinian" Christians who say, with a straight face, that the real problem is Israel and the Israelis, is simply reflecting several things"

No, I say with a straight face, i.e. with dead seriousness that the longstanding Israeli policy of not distinguishing between Muslims and Christians is suicidal to Israelis and murderous to Christians. This is especially true of the arch-dhimmi Ehud Olmert who only noticed the Christians when he and his corrupt buddies could take Christian owned land in Jerusalem for their crimninal devolopment schemes.

This is NOT saying Israel is the problem but that idiot Israelis like Olmert are the problem. Ask any real Israeli patriot and they'll agree with me.

You also wrote: "Palestinian" Christians such as Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, and Michel Sabbag have a history of loyal collaboration with Arafat."

Palestinian "Christians" (your quotes are misplaced) such as Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, and Michel Sabbag are irrelevant. No Christians in Israel or Palestine pay attention to them any more. The last real Palestinian Christian statesman was Elias Freij who literally begged Golda Mier and Levi Eshkol to annex Bethlehem and the other Christian areas into Israel as self-governing cantons. Israel wouldn't even consider the idea because the US State Department objected. Freij forsaw what would happen to the Christians and he was right.

Until Israel gets some real leadership who realizes the only true Palestinians are the Christians, Jews and Samaritan, and that the Muslims are just Arab interlopers, there is little hope. It is not anti-Israel to rightly criticize the destructive policies of her corrupt politicians.

learner,

You'll get no disagreement from me on your post. See my response to Hugh above.

Hugh,

One last point. You accused Palestinian Christians of "A lifetime of trying to curry favor with Muslim Arabs and to fit in, or at least to deflect their hostility, by parroting their views."

Not the ones I know. However, this description does fit Ehud Olmert perfectly.

"The West" - what exactly is The West ?

Posted by: Voyager at January 1, 2007 05:02 PM

The "Middle East" - what exactly is The Middle East? An equally asinine question.
How about this: The West is Western Europe and the people within its territorial boundaries?

But I did get the politically correct aspect of what you meant. i.e. the "West" is undefinable, it belongs to no one and yet everyone. Or some other such nonsense.
Posted by: dhimmi free [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 1, 2007 08:32 PM

The only asinine bit is the person who authored this rubbish.

The West is not Western Europe - and the issue related to THE POLITICAL CLASS running the so-called WEST.

In Europe it is a NON-CHRISTIAN government machine and a Church run by Secularists. The Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem is a Palestinian who is pro-Intifada.

The Americans are little better. They elect politicians who sucker Christians to vote for them then scam funds; solicit Congressional pages; take commissions; and that is to ignore so-called Christian evangelists having gay sexual relationships and preaching the opposite; or piling up treasures on earth rather than in heaven.

It is so easy to point at this "West" and ask how it differs from Fellini's Satyricon. People scorn the Episcopalian Church of the USA..........with its Wiccans and Druids and Gays and crank causes.

Just where is this "West" with any sense of values? Has Blair tired to encourage Iraqis to have civil-partnerships or gay-marriages ? Has he persuaded them of homophobia, sex-discrimination, or to ban hunting, or ban the death penalty ?

Just what are these values the West is so proud of ? Shopping on Sunday ? Writing feminist Bibles ? Mocking religion in spoof movies and TV shows ? Provocative "art" of Madonna in a tank of urine, or an ageing artiste pretending to be on a neon cross in her stage show ?


The Muslims have you beaten hollow if you do not decide what it is The West stands for. At present it looks rather like the besieged Constantinople or Decadent Rome.

In my city, whenever there is a festival, of any faith, the city square is decorated and people of all communities gather for the celebrations. During infidel festivals, music bands are invited, and there is gaiety all around. A few years back, the muslim muezzins formed a committee and asked the city council if they could celebrate muharram there. They did say that they will light up the square at their own expense, (during infidel festivals, businesses of my city are the sponsors of lighting, stage, food etc.) so the city council gave the go ahead for a single evening 6 p.m. to 1 a.m. The local TV station decided to air the event for the benefit of "muslims who cannot make it to the the square".

I turned on the TV at 9 P.M. and saw the sight of muslim mobs dancing to the beat of drums wielding swords, machetes, choppers and maces. They were bathed in an eerie green light. All the buildings of city square, the Town Hall, the State Bank, Clock Tower,were decorated with green lights. The fountain at the centre glowed green, too. And the place was jam packed with muslims swaying to the beat of drums, flashing their weapons in the air. Some were bareback and whipping themselves and chanting allahu akbar. I watched this alien thing for about 15 minutes. The next day, I came to know that they danced until 2 or 3 in the morning. Since then, irrespective of the party running it, the city council has not given permission to muslims to hold any sort of gathering in the city square.

@arjun.sevak
..at least there seem to be very reasonable people in your city council, ..the same would turn out the opposite if it was Western-europe..
(the dogooders presently rule)
as mentioned in a post above:
jesus bashing is in-mohammed bashing out...

"Will Mohammedans in Dearborn start marching through non-Mohammedan neighborhoods protesting whatever the hell it is they protest,"


........They marched in the streets protesting the death of Sadaam, the murderer......It seems the press was unwilling to report it.....Failure to identify the enemy will result in death at the hands of the enemy.......Is the press afraid of action being taken against those who openly state "Death to America?" Is the press afraid of people preparing for the war that the Islamic clerics openly declare is here? Is the press anti-American?
I see the press condeming American soldiers for killing Islamic terrorists pretending to be wounded (this terrorists would have killed them). I see the press condeming American soldiers for destroying a speeding car whose driver is obviously not stopping (despite clear signals to do so). I see the press condeming American soldiers for taking out all inhabitants of a terrorist "safe house." It is true civilians did die, but investigation shows the house to be full of weapons and explosives. I see the press condeming the Americans for bombing a village along the Syrian border (where weapons and terrorists are known to be entering Iraq). It is true civilians did die, but so did about 200 terrorist fighters. A couple of tons of explosives and hundreds of weapons were destroyed. I see the press condeming the Americans for bombing a caravan traveling from Iran to Iraq. It is true civilians did die, but the caravan was carrying Iranian made IED's, machine guns, explosives, RPGs, shoulder held anti-tank and anti-aircraft rockets and money to pay the terrorists.

The press is so willing to condemn American soldiers when civilians die. Who will the press condemn when the dead civilians are on American streets?

"You accused Palestinian Christians of 'A lifetime of trying to curry favor with Muslim Arabs and to fit in, or at least to deflect their hostility, by parroting their views.'

Not the ones I know. However, this description does fit Ehud Olmert perfectly."
-- from a posting above

I never accused "all" of the "Palestinian" Christians of being promoters or explainers-away of the Lesser Jihad, but many are.

As for your comment about Olmert, you are right. And the same could be said of some writers in the Israeli press who are ignorant of Islam, wish to remain ignorant of Islam, and to insist that "if only" Israel does this or that, things can be "solved." They can't. The solution is not to give an inch, to make life more and more difficult for local Muslim Arabs, and to wait for Darura -- the doctrine of necessity -- to be invoked by outside Arabs who will realize that for now, and possibly forever, they will have to put off the day of reckoning. And some of those leaders will no doubt be secretly relieved. Unlike Ahmadinejad, they may not relish the destruction of their countries, and of oilfields, just for the pleasure of seeing Israel, with its Christian and Jewish sites so important to both religions (and we know how unimportant, from the data about visitors, Jerusalem really has been in Islam), destroyed. state, destroyed.


My comments about the assorted Ashrawis, Ateeks, and Sabbags who deliberately insinuate themselves into the good graces of Western Christian bureaucracies (think of what Ateek did with the Presbyterians, helped no doubt by that "Palestinian" minister in Atlanta). Their game is obvious. But so too is that of the "Palestinian" Christians who, in the West, continue to put some kind of blame on Israel for the hostility toward them of the "Palestinian" Muslims. It's the usual deflection and refusal to see.

Of course, there is the brilliant exceptional truth-teller. Nonie Darwish and Brigitte Gabriel come to mind. But the first became a Christian, and the second is Lebanese by origin, not "Palestinian."

Hugh and Provoslavni,

I read an article in Newsday on 12/31/06 by one Shomial Ahmad, titled: "Christian Palestinians keep the faith in Levittown - and keep their homeland in their hearts"

http://www.newsday.com/features/printedition/longislandlife/ny-licov5032289dec31,0,4901547.story

The author, Shomial Ahmad is an American muslim, and apparently a graduate of NYU School of Journalism. Her writing seems shamelessly propagandistic to me. It is quite possible that she twisted and spun the words of those she interviewed to suit her intended message of "blame Israel". Nevertheless, my impression is that most "Palestinian" Christians identify themselves, rather, as Christian "Palestinians" or Christian Arabs, in spite of their treatment by muslims. They are (unfortunately) dhimmis -- and the behavior of the Israeli government often encourages the Christian's dhimmification (e.g. allowance of mosque to be built in Nazareth). Perhaps, however, there is variation by denomination? What is the connection of the Antiochan Orthodox to the Greek Orthodox? Are the Greek Orthodox in the Holy Land, and outside, particularly anti-Israeli and particularly dhimmified? What are the denominations of those referred to (by Provoslavni)?

Hugh and Del,

I wrote from personal experience in that I am around Palestinian Christians daily as there is a substantial Palestinian and other Arabic-speaking community in my city (both Christian and Muslim).

The Christians consider themselves "Arab" only in a linguistic sense which is etymologically correct. They do not consider themselves the same a Muslims. Most, especially the ones from Ramallah, will tell you that "there are no Ramallah Muslims, they're all outsiders who never left."

As for attitudes toward Israel, the Christians from the "West Bank" tend to be strongly pro-Israel (at leat they were befor Israel withdrew and turned it over to the Muslims). They generally view the Muslims as ignorant, dirty, and dishonest. They're "problem with the Jews" is that most Jews fail to see Christians as a separate people from the Muslims although most will tell you that is now changing. They also would rather sell their land to Jews than to Muslims if they can, although it is sad that the curreny situation means they cannot hold to land that has been in their families for hundreds of years.

However, unlike the "West Bank" Christians, the Christians of Nazareth and other parts of Israel proper, do sometimes reflect the attitudes that Hugh mentions. When asked why, they mention discrimination but mostly rail about how Israel has always favoured the Muslims and Druze. It is hard to condemn them when both Israeli policy and Western Christianity have done everything possible to relegate this unique Christian nation to being a mere subset of the Umma.

They know what the Muslims are and accept that reality. What makes them angry is how Israel seems to want to turn them over to their Muslim oppressors. Who is more guilty, the criminal who rapes your daughter, or the official who turned your daughter over to the rapist.

Based on its own reason to exist, Israel MUST change its policy. Like the Jews, with whom the Palestinian Christians share ancient roots, they have always been there. The Muslims are invaders and occupiers. An alliance between Palestinian Christians and Israelis is needed now more than ever. This will involve compromises by both parties but it must be done, both for the survival of the Christians and the future security of Israel itself.

Del,

The Greek and Antiochene Orthodox Churches are both in full communion with each other. Most Palestinian Christians are Orthodox, Melkite (those who follow Orthodox rites but in communion with Rome) or Catholic. There is a miniscule group of Anglicans (like Ashrawi) or other Protestants (like Ateek) but they have almost no following among the Palestinian people.

The only asinine bit is the person who authored this rubbish.

The West is not Western Europe - and the issue related to THE POLITICAL CLASS running the so-called WEST.

Posted by: Voyager at January 2, 2007 02:45 AM

Dear Voyager:

Do try to keep your insults above the personal level. Won't you? I attacked what you said -- not you.

"The West is not Western Europe - and the issue related to THE POLITICAL CLASS running the so-called WEST."

That is the precise PC nonsense being taught across the U.S. and Europe, strike that, I mean being taught throughout the West at institutions of higher learning. I had to listen to that tripe (aimed at destroying group identity) for the decade I spent earning my degrees.

You seem to be trying to define the West strictly in terms of religion. That is a mistake. And your vitriol, moreover, is aimed squarely at Christianity. Your agenda is also obvious: Has Blair tired to encourage Iraqis to have civil-partnerships or gay-marriages ? Has he persuaded them of homophobia, sex-discrimination, or to ban hunting, or ban the death penalty ?

You despise Christianity (which to you is the West) for its lack of "tolerance" for gays primarily and various other leftist items -- hunting, the death penalty, etc., secondarily.

Perhaps you would prefer the tolerance of Islam? Actually, you would prefer no religion at all. Isn't that true? For they seek to impose some sense of moral values, some sense of right and wrong that you personally disagree with. Those moral values might hinder a full-on submersion into hedonism.

But are their hypocrites in religion? Yes, of course there are. But still, that is no reason to assume that all religion is evil.

Those things may be debatable. However, what should not be debatable is a working definition of the West. If we are unable to define ourselves as Westerners, or even what the West is, and lose our collective identities as Westerners, then how can we effectively resist radical Islam?

In every war, both small or large, there must necessarily be an "us" versus "them." If we lose our identities and cannot define "us" then the task of "them" becomes so much easier.

The leftist elite, of whom you seem to be a member, would like nothing better than to remove our group identity along with our borders (see George Soros). Because to them these are barriers to all of us living as brothers and sisters in a new age of peace for all mankind. A new age of peace where there are no divisions of any kind and our misunderstood Muslim brothers become a part of us as children of the earth.

It would seem that your readers have both short memories and no ideas about historical context.

The mosque was approved at the insistence of both the Vatican and the fovernment of the US. In fact Isreal opposed it.

Now, the historical context: Twice in the last decade Hizbollah\Hamas murderers took refuge in the Church of the Ascension and Isreal took hell from the Christian communitty for putting the church under seige.

Which would you rather the gunman take refuge in?

Frankly, given the track record of Muslims for using mosques as arms depot, and the possibility that it could explode next to the church - thereby taking it out - scares the heck out of me.

Frankly I wonder if the Christians are chased away, who will be left for the Muslims hide behind?

Given their track record, good Christians like you all.

Chellmington,

Your comment has an arrogant tone, which is unlikely to make friends.

Additionally, you need to check your own facts.

Do you actually have any evidence that the Vatican insisted a mosque be built in Nazareth, next to a certain Church? I don't know why the Israelis went along with it. Probably it was the stupidity of the individuals involved, and a desire to make nice with the so-called "Palestinian Authority".

Here is a plan for you: Start with the words Ascension and Annunciation and Nativity (whether or not you are Christian --I'm not). Jog your own memory. Cogitate. Then investigate the locations of the Churches in the Holy Land, with those words in their names. Consider various names of towns or cities. Then go back and reread your above comment. Then, perhaps, if you had class, you might right a short note explaining your own misunderstanding and short memory, and apologize for your above comment. Or not.







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