Ibrahim Elshamy's two protests contradict each other. If Central High's American Indian mascot demeans American Indians, then Memorial High's Crusader demeans Crusaders. But if Memorial's Crusader symbol exalts Crusaders, then Central's American Indian exalts American Indians.
Aside from that, this is just another dreary example of how the West must perpetually apologize for its identity and heritage. As I show in my book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), certainly the Crusaders did things that cannot be excused. But to characterize the Crusades as genocidal is wildly overstated. The Crusaders behaved according to the accepted canons of warfare at that time. Those were brutal, and the Crusaders were often brutal, but no more or less than other armies of the period. And in the main, the Crusades were an endeavor with noble goals, of which Westerners need not be and should not be ashamed. But Memorial's principal Arthur Adamakos clearly knows nothing about any of that, and accepts Ibrahim Elshamy's characterization without question.
"City school board to review the Crusader and American Indian symbols," by Riley Yates in the Union Leader, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
MANCHESTER – The school board will review the mascots of Central and Memorial high schools, after a former student complained they are offensive to some minorities.Last night, a fight that has boiled at Dartmouth College was taken to the Manchester School District, as 2005 Central class president Ibrahim Elshamy charged that Central's American Indian and Memorial's Crusaders herald a history that shouldn't be celebrated.
Elshamy, who now attends Dartmouth, said both symbols are hurtful and should be changed.
Indian and civil rights groups have fought Indian mascots in professional and collegiate sports, while the Crusades is a "dark spot" in Christian history, he said.
"Ostensibly under the name of religion, a fanatical army swept across continents, brutally engaging in genocide against Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christian, women and children," said Elshamy, who has set up a Web site, HateMascot.com, to lobby against the two schools' symbols.
The school board last night asked a committee to review Memorial and Central's mascots, though a handful of members voted against the motion.
Memorial's principal said he stands by the "Crusaders" moniker, insisting it is a name chosen in the 1960s to honor the U.S. military -- and not the historic Crusades, a series of bloody campaigns from 1095 to 1291.
"It has nothing to do with the Crusades, genocide or anything like that," said Arthur Adamakos, who was reached at home by telephone.
"Ostensibly under the name of religion, a fanatical army swept across continents, brutally engaging in genocide against Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christian, women and children,"
Wow! A veritable Wermacht that annihilated all! I'm utterly amazed that after this blitzkrieg there's even a single Muslim left in this world, much less over a billion.
Let's change one word:
"Ostensibly under the name of religion, a fanatical army swept across continents, brutally engaging in genocide against Jews, Christians, Orthodox Christian, women and children,"
Sounds a lot like the Muslim conquest doesn't it? Remember, no Muslim conquest, no Crusades. Quite simple really.
Genocide? Not quite.
It is an exaggeration to call the crusades a genocide.
They should read better historical information:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html
From the Union Leader article:
"Last night, a fight that has boiled at Dartmouth College was taken to the Manchester School District, as 2005 Central class president Ibrahim Elshamy charged that Central's American Indian and Memorial's Crusaders herald a history that shouldn't be celebrated."
"...a history that shouldn't be celebrated."
Not two episodes in history, but A history.
Not the history of oppressed peoples, for, as Robert pointed out, the Native Americans were oppressed, but the Cruasders were not.
No, the specific history that shouldn't be celebrated is the history of Western Civilization
...in it's entirety.
"2005 Central class president Ibrahim Elshamy"
"Elshamy, who now attends Dartmouth"
Poor chap. Sounds like he was really oppressed by these symbols.
Rather than continue to subject himself to such insensitive people, I suggest he drop out of Dartmouth and apply at the local campus of UNH, where they only offend animals with their mascot.
Rather than continue to subject himself to such insensitive people, I suggest he drop out of Dartmouth and apply at the local campus of UNH, where they only offend animals with their mascot.
What is wrong with going to school in dar-al-islam?
I thought the qur'an had all the answers to everything. Why go to school in the land of the infidel? Our education can only fill a muslim's mind with infidel facts. Flee while you can!
Do Cleveland Indians or Cincinnati Bengals demean or exult me? I'm yet to figure out.
If they are going to bend over, call it the Central High Ghazis, and the Memorial High Jihadis. If either of those two teams is a loser, call them Shahids. Surely that should make Ibrahim Elshamy happy?
Somebody remind these schools of NH motto: Live Free or Die!
We fiddle with words while Rome burns.
The original Crusaders didn't permanently resolve the problems in the Holy Land because they went after the symptoms, not the root problems.
The symptoms were: systematic and institutional mistreatment of Christian Pilgrims, a lack of access to Christian holy sites and extortion against those pilgrims. The Crusades were meant to eliminate these things. Taking the Holy Land real estate militarily didn't solve the problem permanently.
The problem is centered in Mecca. Islam permanently divides people into believers and non-believers and then discriminates against people based on religion and gender. Those institutions and the beliefs behind them must be destroyed for the holy lands to be accessible. The Crusaders should have gone to the center of the universe for that belief system ( Mecca ) and they should have controlled it for hundreds of years instead of establishing kingdoms in Jerusalem and Malta and other places. That is why the Crusades failed in the end.
"MANCHESTER – The school board will review the mascots of Central and Memorial high schools, after a former student complained they are offensive to some minorities."
......I find the former student offensive to civilization........
In the longer article, the mayor says that he won't comment on the issue, yet...One of the committee members stated that she didn't realize how hurtful this issue was to 'so many people.' I am sure that she counts among those 'hurt' the young agitator, Elshamy, and his fellow trouble makers. The name will probably be changed, irregardless of countless 'hurt' feelings from alumni who graduated from that school 50 years ago and saw their children and grandchildren attend the same school. What about Muslim schools in the US? What kind of names do their teams have? They had better be bland, with no references to their religion or Muslim history or Muslim culture. Does anyone keep records of such things? I'd love to see it.
I have not be able to confirm this, but I heard on a radio show that the stained glass windows at the chapel at Dartmouth College are blacked out, but there was a nice new Muslim prayer room with a brand new door in the chapel.
CRUSADER OF THE WEEK:
http://www.brrice.org/OurSchool/ourSchool_crusadersWeek.htm
Review? In other words, Bye bye mascot.
Who will Elshamy go after next? The publishers of Batman comics.
I am only too painfully aware, as a Jew, that the Crusaders gratuitiously killed many Jews as they crossed Europe en-route for the Holy Land and then again as they returned and this didn't happen just once. However, that doesn't stop me from defending the use of Crusader imagery as long as it is used as a symbol of defiance against the jihad.
Imagine my surprise about eighteen months ago to discover that there was a pub (bar) in Southampton, England near the docks, that was not merely called 'The Crusader' but had stained glass windows showing a Crusader knight on horseback.
This amazed me given that Southampton has a large Muslim population and literally hundreds of Muslim students attending its two universties. I had imagined that this large minority would have demanded the pub change its name.
Alas, I never actually entered it to see if it had any Crusader objects or artifacts inside, or whether Muslims had complained about the pub's name and when I did venture a visit just before I returned to the US, discovered it had closed and was boarded up.
At least one Crusader logo lives on in Britain and that's the Crusader on the title banner of the Daily Express and the Sunday Express. Both no-nonsense anti-dhimmie newspapers.
Finally some recognition!
Yes, I, the resident Crusader, admit that I am overjoed with those names! Keep 'em comin'!
Dm60462, That is obviously a Chatholic High School. This is one school that will never change its name.
The British had a WW2 tank named "Crusader".
The US Navy had a fighter-bomber named "Crusader."
Eisenhower titled his memoirs "Crusade in Europe."
That is a great name.
If I were president, the next ship would be USS Crusader.
I hope someone in NH has some backbone.
Here is a link to Ellison being sworn in,
watch closely....he tries to put his right hand on the qur'an, but Nancy Pelosi makes him put his left (poopy, butt wiping) hand on the qur'an, and her hand (a dirty woman hand) rests on his.
http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=40362&sid=145859&bw=hi&cat=2
My Alma Mater changed it's mascot from "Crusaders" to "Thunder" a few years ago (I attended Wheaton College in Wheaton, IL), probably because it was considered inappropriate. The principal, Dr. Duane Litfin, is a well meaning but historically challenged individual.
I personally am offended by Wolves, Lions, Bears, Tigers, Sharks, Eagles, Falcons and other such predatory animals. I think Rabbits, Gerbils, Parakeets, Cows, and Snails are appropriate mascots. I'm sure it will help us groom young men to be warriors.
- Wheaton Crusader, a.k.a. WC
Oops,
Dr. Duane Litfin is the President of Wheaton College. I have reduced my financial support for Wheaton based on his spineless buckling-under to peer pressure for the name-change.
"Elshamy, who has set up a Web site, HateMascot.com"
Truly amazing. Do these people really have nothing better to do?
Come to think of it I find those staff at disneyland in the goofy costumes HIGHLY insulting to my pet dog.
Im setting up my own website called HateGoofy.com
Together we can make a stand against the racist, insulting,xenophobic,blah,blah,blah......
Guess they'll have to change the name of a student publication, as well as the road the school is on. It's located at 1 Crusader Way.
Ibrahim Elshamy should be asked if he is aware of the Muslim football teams in Judea and Samaria named after suicide bombers; the so called shahids. He should be asked what he thinks of those names. He should then be asked what he is doing about those team names. He should then be asked if he knows the definition of hypocracy.
There would be much greater resistance to such nonsense in Britain since two of our kings, Richard I and Edward I went on crusade; many mediaeval churches, even quite small ones, have stone effigies over the graves of knights who had been on crusade - in the act of drawing their swords: the 'Old Trip to Jerusalem', Nottingham, probably the oldest pub in the UK, is believed to have been a stopping off place for knights on their way to the third crusade in 1189; 'the Saracen's Head' is also a very popular pub name, dating from mediaeval times and the and signs clearly show that it is a decapitated head; there are buildings associated with the Templars all over England; the first detailed description of Wales was written by Giraldus Cambrensis while he accompanied his bishop on a recruiting drive around the principality, for the third crusade; the most popular accounts of Robin Hood make him a returning crusader. Muslims will have their work cut out if they try to excise this particular aspect of the national identity.
The crusades were a counter attack to muslim aggression however they were beyond incompetent. The original intent was to reinforce the Eastern Roman Empire after the defeat at Manzikert in 1071. The 1st crusade managed to take Jerusalam. It was successful becuase of the inept arabs and the semi bravery and luck of the crusaders. After that there is not much to see but negativity at least from a strategic view in the east until perhaps Malta in 1565. The other big success was the re-taking of Spain but how much was that due to crusaders or locals is still in the air. They no doubt contributed however.
The low light was the 4th crusade which sacked Constantinople in 1204 and did nothing but finish the spilt between eastern and western Christanity.
I think the mascot should stay becuase of the symbolism of bravery that of course was at the heart of the crusades and I do not hate the crusades for the violance. Everybody was violent during that era including the muslims who were (and still are) killing people left and right.
My only dislike of the crusades is the stupidity of the leadership of the time (hint: Bush). They spent about as much time fighting fellow Christians in mainland europe as they did muslims. Also they weakened eastern europe which is one of the reasons the turks made it all the way to Vienna.
Instead of trying to appease and placate these alien beasts who invade our country for the purpose of transforming it into another islamic hellhole, they should be vociferously challenged and excoriated for their blatant arrogance. What right do immigrant muslims have to demand that we change the names of our school mascots, some of which have been used for decades?! This should make people angry, not ashamed! I don't understand why people will not stand up and defend their heritage against attacks like this.
It appears that only muslim immigrants are offended by everything American. That presents a compelling argument for banning all future muslim immigration. If they can't come here and assimilate, they should not come. These people whine about being despised; what do they expect?! Let this lame-brained muslim jerk attend one of the islamic world's fine institutions of higher learning. We don't need or want him and his ilk in America.
Moris2:
"However, that doesn't stop me from defending the use of Crusader imagery as long as it is used as a symbol of defiance against the jihad".
Any "genocide" of muslims and their appeasers/apologists/sympathizers is a SACRED OBLATION.
"This amazed me given that Southampton has a large ...... population"
Heard of the Panchatanthra tale, where a muslimislamic wolf sheds copious tears for the plight of rain sodden sheep? islam means deception and lies.
Susanp:
"Let this lame-brained muslim jerk attend one of the islamic world's fine institutions of higher learning".
Where? Where the Earth that is cut up into several pieces perambulates around the Sun??
And learn to rock furiously, fulminate spitting fire and brimstone.
The islam relinquishers and repudiators, eager to jump on to the bandwagon of Truth and Freedom (including pukistan & khanistan india, full of beggardeshis, hastily building (SIC) Kaashi Temple (SIC) purveying *Panini Grammar and Vedic cum Sanskrit*ised mishmash are oversmart, overcrafty Bhasmaasuraas.....GOL..(Guffawing out Loudly)
What has unleashed the vicious sword of vengeance upon America and the West is the denial of the one true God, Jesus Christ, and its false worship and idolatry of self versus the One Lord and God of all. Instead of worshiping Jesus Christ, the Eternal Truth, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where He renews His sacrifice to His Father in heaven daily for our sins, we now worship school boards and politicians and school officials whose only goal is to deconstruct Christian culture, Christian civilization, and all of its accoutrements, but most especially its worship of the One, True God Jesus Christ!
http://www.theorthodoxromancatholic.com
Robert:
"The Crusaders behaved according to the accepted canons of warfare at that time. Those were brutal, and the Crusaders were often brutal, but no more or less than other armies of the period".
Precisely.
Why can't the Godforsaken indians focus on the clear and present danger. The very word India or Indians is thoroughly misleading for me.
Is it the filmstars, paedophile rapists and cricket apotheosizing indooomooslime bhai bhai akhandaaism spouting eunuchy amorphous india??
Or the abdul kalam admirers?
PBDTt..PEACE BE DENIED TO them.
Further clarification:
Moris2:
"However, that doesn't stop me from defending the use of Crusader imagery as long as it is used as a symbol of defiance against the jihad".
Agree with you Moris2. Totally agree with you !
j hughes dunphy:
".....false worship and idolatry.....Christian culture, Christian civilization..."
Do not hasten to resort to dense clusters of words.
What you call "milk" in English, I, a Hindu call "Paal" in Thamizh or "Kktscheeram" by non Self Aggrandizing Vedic Priests here.
GODDAMNED GODFORSAKEN muslimsislam that is solely responsible for my addled logic. Now I have to correct the faux pas above posted by me.
Earth cut up into pieces that the SUN allegedly, purportedly perambulates around.
The Pranayamam peddlers too have superbly spawned forth comatose mobile idiots. When I was walking, I saw a nattily clad woman strutting beside me, suddenly punch a few numbers in her cell phone and huskily ask:
" Sorry to bother you. I forgot suddenly. How do I breathe?"
Majorly OT,
Spread this far and wide, this is a poll in London Evening Standard, regarding the building of a new Mega Mosque.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/poll/poll-18791-details/ques-18669-id/£100m+mosque:+Vote+now/poll.do
Stop the dawa now and vote no!
The Crusaders behaved according to the accepted canons of warfare at that time. Those were brutal, and the Crusaders were often brutal
So what ? Since the only existential threat most Westerners think they face is when there aren't enough Playstations for Christmas it seems bizarre that they get so holier-than-thou over people who were fighting for their existence.
I tend to see Crusaders rather as those men that waded ashore on 6th June 1944 to liberate Europe from an alien and inhuman invader and to smash his war machine. To do that the City of Caen was levelled by heavy bombing and lots of French civilians stopped bullets, and saw what invading armies did when they went after their enemy.
At Monte Cassino the Benedictines could watch their monastery crumble as bombs rained down on it and men died trying to capture it.
That is Brutality. It is having to bayonet a man, or to see what a landmine does to his intestines. If the Muslims had not invaded Jerusalem and posed a threat to Bulgaria they could have probably lived happily ever after in Mecca and Medina..............but once Mohammed started sending threating ultimata to the Christian Emperor in Constantinople we knew he should react as Israel does to each warning of impending doom from Iran.
Which side should have won the American Civil War ? The one that used paint balls ?
Human existence is steeped in blood and it is only the reduction in death and dying of infants and soldiers that makes Westerners think that they are god and have no need of Judaeo-Christian religion; but I bet there are a lot of God-Believers in uniform in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those Crusaders put their lives on the line kitted out at their own expense to save Christendom from the followers of the Man-God Mohammed.
Crusaders protected us so we could have Cathedrals, and Churches and our own culture rather than living as North Africans or Pakistanis or Arabs.
Rather than continue to subject himself to such insensitive people, I suggest he drop out of Dartmouth and apply at the local campus of UNH, where they only offend animals with their mascot.
Posted by: CJ
I wonder who is paying his tuition. Let him study in Riyad or some such hellhole of a cesspit.
The audacity of this pig is beyond the pale. Of course he's picking up the "Indian" cause to slip in his little moslem gambit.
They sure have the slimiest of techniques for their little jihadawa.
pigs be upon them all.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/poll/poll-18791-details/ques-18669-id/£100m+mosque:+Vote+now/poll.do
Stop the dawa now and vote no!
Posted by: km
Not at all OT.. the Crusades are taking place on the net these days. As of right now it doesn't look good. 67 in favor vs. 31 against. Are the English THAT dhimmified or are only the mobots voting?
C'mon guys.. click that link and let's help out a little!!
Your vote COUNTS!!
"As I show in my book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), certainly the Crusaders did things that cannot be excused." -- R. Spencer
"Ostensibly under the name of religion, a fanatical army swept across continents, brutally engaging in genocide against Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christian, women and children." -- I. Elshamy
I agree with him on one point: attacks against Jews by crusaders were horrific and gratuitous. I think we should include this very explicitly among those "things that cannot be excused", and be sorry for that part. Let's be up-front about this, without losing the big picture which Mr. Spencer describes so well.
Attacks against other Christians were also misguided, to say the least.
"...save Christendom from the followers of the Man-God Mohammed"
Comment posted above.
Thank God, Jesus Christ annihilates evil mooslimes. voyagers, accept your lot as insha Allah !
Martin:
"Attacks against other Christians were also misguided"
Uh, really? Brandishing cudgels for long departed and reborn, smacks of sheer ENVY of America. LOL...
The following would enlighten those knee jerky anti ISRAEL AMERICA opinion holders. Also insightful how incredibly fiendish islimes and pukis are:
http://hindudharma.wordpress.com/tag/global-terrorism/
Peter Worthington:
"War CANNOT be waged peacefully"
http://torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2006/11/26/2502263-sun.html
My cat objected a few years ago when the Carolina Panthers lost 15 straight. She claimed using the name Panthers was an insult to the cat family, and requested I write to the NFL.
This mascot business is sheer nonsense. Muslims are being massacred by fellow Muslims in Iraq and this guy is worried about a "crusader" mascot.
Christianity has admited the terrible wrong of the Fourth Crusade killing Orthodox or any other crusade killing Jews and Muslims. The problem is that Muslims do not recognise the genocides of Eastern Christians, Armenians and Jews that has taken place since the Islamic conquests in the Middle East, North Africa and South Eastern Europe.
Most people in Europe don't even know about the history of a million Christian slaves in the Barbary states.
We need a new educational crusade to inform our young people of all religions and none about all the evils of the past, and the present.
"Who remembers the Armenians" Adolf Hitler
We're still behind....vote
Stop the dawa now and vote no!
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/poll/poll-18791-details/ques-18669-id/%A3100m+mosque:+Vote+now/poll.do
Where? Where the Earth that is cut up into several pieces perambulates around the Sun?? posted by Crows&Crows
Do they have one there? I was thinking about the world-renowned, state-of-the-art islamic university located on the banks of the muddy pond where the sun sets.
We all know that our muslim superiors flock to the West to get educated and then use their engineering/chemistry/physics/ or other advanced knowledge to build sophisticated weapons to destroy us. Our generosity, naivete, gullibility, and faith in our fellow man are our Achilles heel. And the treacherous, mendacious, evil muslims know it. But I'll never figure out how muslims reconcile or justify the manifest superiority of the West with their own delusions of superiority. Considering the islamic obsession with honor, ego, machismo,and pride, one would expect them to shun all things Western, especially education. AFter all, the Qur'an contains all the knowlege needed by man. Islam is a farce. Too bad muslims are too stupid to see that.
As Robert quite rightly points out there is an inherant contradiction in his complaints about the American Indian and Crusader Mascots. But a contradiction is not going to let it stop him having his moan. What he is really doing is trying to excercise his Muslim power over American symbolism. Today school mascots tomorrow the Flag. My suggestion is that we flood his website wil emails pointing out what a pratt he is.
I have just sent this email to Ibrahim at the email address given on his website http://www.Ibrahim@hatemascot.com I suggest others do likewise.
'Dear Ibrahim,
I am not an American but I ran across your website accidentaly and was interested enough to read it. From what it says you are concerned primarily with two school mascots.
1) A Crusader
2) An American Indian.
Is your point that putting these two symbols as mascots is demeaning to what they represent i.e. The Native Americans and The Brave Crusaders. Or are you trying to say it demeans the Native Americans and glorifies The Crusaders?
As both are school symboles you cannot have it both ways one cannot be demeaning and the other glorifying that is ILLOGICAL. Might I respectfully suggest your motive in protesting therefore is something else entirely.
Then when I read your name I realised what the game was. You are I am certain a Muslim and what you are trying to do is excercise control over American institutions, today school mascots tomorrow the Flag. I am sure people will see through your ploy especially as you have indicated by your contradictory choices the transparency of your motives. I will be mailing a copy of this email to your current College so they can maybe help you with your inability to think logically and also to the local media to expose your deviousness.
By the way The Crusades where NOT genoicidal attacks on Muslims,CHRISTIANS??? etc they were a BELATED response to 400 years of Muslim aggression against Christian Europe. Thankfully they at least succeeded in ejection the Muslim invaders from Spain and the rest of Europe. Pity about Turkey though.
Best regards
Peter'
Maybe he will get the message but who knows Muslims are quite capable of argueing two diametricaly opposite points at the same time and defending the indefensible with never a blush or even a realisation of their logical deficiancies. As anyone who has visited 'FaithFreedom.org' will be only too familiar with.
Susanp:
"Our generosity, naivete, gullibility, and faith in our fellow man are our Achilles heel".
Yes. I completely agree with you. Now I hope America would handle things with calibrated wisdom. The very survival of Civilization depends on it. Too much of analysis of the past, that is dead, dissipates one's energy, spirits and engenders needless guilt. Incapacitates us from taking care of the Present.
One should AVOID any discussions or debates with muslimes and Indians too who harbour hidden animosity.
The world might go gaga over Indian IT etc (press reports) but I was NEVER fooled. My reasons lie elsewhere. I am not an engineer or computer savvy at all. But so far in my life, any email or query sent to KNOWN or unknown INDIANS (worldwide,NRIs included) about anything have never been answered. They so deplorably lack good manners. Are incapable of apologising or coming out with a genuine "Sorry". Or make AMENDS.
Ironically, Divine Help for me, when everything turned so bleak and despairing came from some Whites (Strangers) in America (via email:). Truth is incredibly stranger than fiction. And none of them asked me for money. If I and certain people like me find fellow Indians loathsome, we are justified in feeling so.
Indians (Hindus) need to be really slapped, senses jolted and informed that Geetha or Vedaas( or any Divine Scriptures) never belonged exclusively to them. (muslimes I don't include, I never look upon them as humans)
Bhagavan Ramana emphatically States:
"The Entire Universe Is My Ashramam". You have no idea how the guileless WHITES are abused in India.
To add to my post above:
When I visited America and Canada, the Indians dragged me to Temples and Bhajan(Hymns singing)sessions every day. Sigh...Odiously stultifying.
They never let you be. Always shepherding you around. Would cook some yuck and shove it down my throat. You should come up with American Veil for people like me who are simply not interested in meeting Indians there.
"What about Muslim schools in the US? What kind of names do their teams have?"
.......Muslim schools do not have teams.... they have mindless political indoctrination and military training; They call themselves martyrs....
Crows&Crows, I have a fondess for Indians, at least some of them. My physician is an Indian and I absolutely adore her. In fact, she literally saved my life about ten years ago from a self-inflicted illness (not intentional)caused by procrastination and an immortality complex, and for that I will be forever grateful. There are quite a few Indian immigrants where I live and other than being tightwads (misers), they are delightful people. Most are doctors, nuclear engineers, or motel owners and they're all quite well-off, but they act like they're dirt poor and they hate to spend money!