Anti-dhimmitude from the Bishop of Córdoba, and an update on this story from AFP:
The Roman Catholic bishop of the southern city of Córdoba, Juan José Asenjo, turned down a request from Muslims to be allowed to pray in its cathedral, a former mosque, news reports said. He was quoted as saying that joint use would not help relations and that in any case the church was there first, as the eighth-century Córdoba Mosque from the Moorish rule of Spain had been built on the ruins of a church erected by the Visigoths. It became a Catholic cathedral in 1236, with the expulsion of the Moors. The influential leader of the Islamic Commission of Spain, Mansur Escudero, responded to the rejection by praying outside the cathedral, to “soften the heart of the bishop.”
IOW take a hike!
Just how would Mohammadians react to calls for one of their mosque to be use as a church by the infidals?
Bravo Bishop! Just say no to naked stupidity!
Well, there's one Islamist camel less his nose, thanks to a watchful bishop in a tent.
When praying for the softening of the heart fails, bullets and bombs soon follow.
I have listened this news since sometime and Bishop of Cordoba Jose Asenjo, He is a good man, a good seminary with many vocations and the catholic action letter to the newspaper is good too.
Happy New Year!
PS: With the defeat of islamists we have to know that islam is more weak that we believed, be faith!
Sure ex-communist Mansur, then explain these nuggets from an interview you gave:
Mansur Escudero entre la Meca y Medina
Réplica al artículo "¿Yihad en Madrid?" de Mansur Escudero, antes comunista y ahora dirigente islámico en Al-Andalus
Para los creyentes musulmanes Mahoma es el más perfecto modelo de conducta humana. Sus actos y pensamientos se consideran ejemplares, y todo sincero creyente ansía hacer de su vida una copia lo más parecida a la del supuesto profeta. La vida de Mahoma como líder religioso está dividida entre los años de La Meca (612-622) y los de Medina (622-632). La península arábiga es, en esos años, un territorio habitado mayoritariamente por tribus politeístas entre las que conviven algunas comunidades judías y pequeños grupúsculos cristianos. Mahoma, con un conocimiento muy escaso del judaísmo y prácticamente nulo del cristianismo, comienza a predicar por La Meca, presentando sus discursos como religión bíblica. Cuando los cristianos, y sobre todo los judíos, le rechazan y niegan que sus predicaciones tengan relación alguna con la Biblia, Mahoma reconsidera su posición y comienza a presentarse como el último profeta, perfeccionador de judaísmo y cristianismo. Son varios los especialistas que piensan que el odio a los judíos que rezuma el Corán se debe al ninguneo que sufrió por aquellos cuando quiso presentarse y ser aceptado como profeta ante las comunidades judías de Arabia. En La Meca es sólo un predicador más, con frecuencia objeto de burlas y humillaciones, y de este período son los capítulos del Corán más tolerantes, menos belicosos. Acosado y perseguido por los politeístas de La Meca, y temiendo por su vida, consigue escapar a Medina en 622 acompañado de varios grupos de seguidores. En Medina se convierte en líder de una pequeña comunidad que necesita consolidarse económicamente, y para ello organiza, dirige y participa en asaltos y saqueos a las caravanas de comerciantes. Ordena el asesinato de todos aquellos medinenses que representan un riesgo para la difusión de su mensaje y no para hasta exterminar a todos los judíos de la ciudad. La masacre de los Banu Qurayza (asesinato de entre 600 y 900 hombres y reducción a la esclavitud de mujeres y niños), única tribu judía que quedaba en Medina, no es una leyenda, sino un hecho del que hay múltiples referencias históricas. La Meca fue conquistada en 630 y todo el pagano que no se convirtió fue asesinado. Quedan, por tanto, clasificados los odios del supuesto profeta como sigue: los paganos, sean ateos o politeístas, que tanto le hicieron sufrir en Meca durante los primeros años, son los peores, o conversión o muerte; seguidamente los judíos y cristianos, que pasaron ampliamente de reconocerle como profeta y enviado de Dios, y a quienes se les puede perdonar la vida (no es obligatorio, se les puede masacrar también según el capricho del momento) si se someten a los musulmanes y se convierten en ciudadanos de tercera categoría renunciando a sus más elementales derechos. En fin, una vida ejemplar, modelo, como ya digo, para todo musulmán sincero.
Toda esta amplia introducción era necesaria para explicar que a los musulmanes se les recomienda, mientras viven en minoría dentro de otros países y comunidades, que adopten la actitud de la Meca, humilde y conciliadora, para pasar a usar la fuerza y la coacción a medida que van siendo mayoría, como en Medina. De esta manera entenderemos mejor la contestación que Mansur Escudero da al artículo de Elorza. Es una réplica totalmente mecana, exhibiendo cortesía, consideración y declarando, por enésima vez, la naturaleza pacífica del Islam así como el concepto yihad, término este último transido de bondades, que los infieles no sabemos comprender.
Pero Mansur Escudero, 56 años, nacido en Córdoba, psiquiatra y antiguo militante comunista, convertido al Islam desde 1978, también tiene un lado medinense, que por supuesto se reserva para cuando está entre sus correligionarios.
He seleccionado algunos fragmentos de entrevistas y declaraciones suyas que cualquiera puede encontrar por la red:
1. Mansur se va de conferencias patrocinadas por Arabia Saudita
Webislam: ¿Podrías resumir los objetivos de la conferencia?
Mansur Abdussalam: El título de la conferencia era "La educación islámica en Occidente". Bajo este lema, se agruparon -en cinco sesiones de trabajo, con dos ponentes cada una y un turno de intervenciones de los asistentes- una serie de temas en el que se trataron, entre otros, el papel de las mezquitas en la educación de los musulmanes, el impacto de los medios de comunicación en la educación, especialmente la televisión e Internet, la educación islámica en las escuelas públicas y privadas, el papel de la mujer en la educación, fórmulas de coordinación entre las organizaciones islámicas occidentales y las instituciones de los países de mayoría musulmana, etc.
Sobre la referencia a Occidente en el título de la conferencia, se me ocurre señalar cómo -quizás por pereza mental o por falta de valentía intelectual para definir las nuevas realidades- se sigue utilizando un término que, a poco que lo analicemos, veremos que no nos lleva a ningún sitio. ¿Qué significa hoy en día Occidente? Parece claro que el concepto quedó obsoleto hace años con el derrumbe del sistema soviético. Creo que habría que coger el toro por los cuernos y asumir que el mundo se divide ideológicamente -y no geográficamente- entre el mundo del Islam y el mundo del kufr.
WI: ¿Cómo se ha desarrollado la conferencia. Quién la patrocinaba...?
Mansur: La conferencia, que se celebró durante los días 27, 28 y 29 de Agosto, en el hotel Sheraton de Bruselas, estaba patrocinada por el rey Fahd. Como es lógico, fue respaldada con la presencia de altas personalidades del mundo islámico y, especialmente, de Arabia Saudí. Estuvieron presentes el príncipe Abdelaziz, los ministros de Educación, Asuntos Islámicos y Justicia, el secretario general de la Liga del Mundo Islámico, el embajador de Arabia Saudí en Bélgica, el secretario general de la ISESCO... Por otra parte, todo el desarrollo de la conferencia fue seguido por varias cadenas de televisión árabes y numerosos corresponsales de periódicos y revistas del mundo islámico. Entre los invitados -más de doscientos-, había representantes de las principales organizaciones islámicas en Europa, más un numeroso grupo de profesores de distintas universidades saudíes.
WI: El mes pasado también estuviste en una conferencia en Teherán. Hace unas semanas el secretario general de la Federación, Mehdi Flores, participó en otra en el Cairo. Tengo entendido que se prepara algo en Trípoli para este mes de septiembre, ¿Está pasando algo especial en el mundo islámico?
Mansur: Bueno, todos los veranos -como es lógico, debido a las vacaciones- son pródigos en la organización de encuentros islámicos mundiales. Sobre todo tres países: Arabia Saudí, Libia e Irán, tratan a través de ellos de reforzar sus posiciones, influencia y liderazgo sobre el conjunto de los musulmanes en el mundo. Cada uno tiene su estilo y su clientela, aunque siempre se repite el mismo guión. En realidad, en la mayoría de las ocasiones la conferencia, encuentro o simposio, no suelen ser mucho más que meros pretextos para hacer recuento de lealtades. El lado positivo es el encuentro personal con musulmanes de todo el mundo y el intercambio de experiencias con ellos.
WI: ¿Qué entiendes por 'reforzar sus posiciones, influencia y liderazgo en el mundo' y qué papel tienen los musulmanes españoles en todo esto?.
Mansur- (sonrisas). Aunque no creo que sea el momento de entrar en detalles, sí parece claro que Al-Andalus es la clave del nuevo paradigma. Toda la estrategia mundial islámica para lo que comúnmente se llama Occidente pasa por España. Eso lo sabe hasta Nostradamus, que ya es decir. No tienes más que ver el mapa de centros islámicos proyectados en España; un mapa simbólico que dice mucho al que sabe entender. El Centro Islámico de Gibraltar inaugura una etapa nueva dentro de la geografía espiritual. Los saudíes son maestros en geografía espiritual, ¡al hamdu liLlah!.
WI: ¿Estás sugiriendo que los saudíes no son tan torpes como parecen hacer creer?.
Mansur: Se equivoca el que crea que los saudíes son torpes o incapaces de hacer nada positivo para los musulmanes en general. Saudíes, iraníes y libios se reparten los papeles, como en la comedia greco-romana. ¿Podrían los saudíes abrir centros en España o en Estados Unidos si no diesen esa imagen pro-americana y corrupta que dan?. (risas). Pero, ¿Quién sabe quién gobernará Arabia Saudí dentro de 40 0 50 años?. El tema está en que el proyecto islámico tiene una perspectiva histórica de siglos que se le escapa al analista habitual. "Ellos conspiran, pero Allah es el mejor de los conspiradores" (Qur'an). Hay que amar a los saudíes, porque Allah sabe más del asunto.
WI: Eso que dices parece muy fuerte, pero no entiendo el papel de unos pocos musulmanes españoles en todo esto.
Mansur: Allah es el Señor de la historia. Al Ándalus seguirá siendo Al Andalus para los musulmanes de todas las épocas. Eso está ahí, nosotros no lo hemos creado. Aquí tenemos nuestros muertos, que están vivos, a la espera del Día de la Resurrección. En el plano espiritual, hoy en día, santos de todas la regiones islámicas se reúnen en Al Ándalus como se han venido reuniendo desde siempre. La presencia islámica siempre ha existido, ininterrumpidamente, a pesar de que aparentemente fuimos expulsados en el siglo XVII. No somos pocos, sino multitudes, pero hay quien lo ve y hay quien no.
Marisol: Sabes español? Lo podrias traducir para los lectores? Si no, puedo traducirlo más tarde. ;)
Hubert:
Looks like a nice interview. Unfortunately my spanish is non-existent. Any english translation?
Do all of us a favor Huberto and translate that statement into English. Mucho gracias señor
And for the good bishop
clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap,
clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap,
clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap
A standing ovation and a sincere wish that el Papa B16 ganar el mismo tipo de huevo's como el obispo San Juan.
Lets see if I have this right; the pope goes to Turkey, and could NOT pray or make the sign of the cross in the mosque.
Yet, the muslims have the chutzpah to show up at a Catholic Cathedral and DEMAND to pray to allah???
Juan José Asenjo seems to be made of sterner stuff then Benedict!
Bravo! Well done!
However, expect these muslims to return!
Here's a quick and dirty translation:
For the Muslim believers Mohammed is the most perfect model of human conduct. His acts and thoughts are considered exemplary, and all sincere believers are anxious to model their lives to the one of the supposed prophet. The life of Mahomet as a religious leader is divided between the years of Mecca (612-622) and those of Medina (622-632). The Arabic peninsula was, in those years, a territory inhabited mainly by polytheistic tribes among whom some Jewish communities coexisted and small Christian groups. Mahomet, with a scarce knowledge of Judaism and practically no knowledge of Christianity, begins to preach in Mecca, presenting his speeches as a Biblical religion. When the Christians, and above all the Jews, reject him and deny that his preaching has any relation with the Bible, Mahomet reconsiders his position and begins to present himself as the last prophet, perfector of Judaism and Christianity. Some specialists are think that the hatred of the Jews that permeates the Koran must be attributed to the dismissal that Mohammed suffered when he wanted to appear and be accepted like a prophet before the Jewish communities of Arabia. In Mecca he is only a preacher, but frequently the object of ridicules and humiliations, and of the most tolerant, less militant chapters of the Koran, are to be found during this period. Harassed and persecuted by the polytheists of Mecca, and fearing for his life, he is able to escape to Medina in 622 accompanied by several groups of followers. In Medina he becomes leader of a small community that needs to consolidate economically, and to do this he organizes, directs and participates in assaults and sackings of the caravans of retailers. He orders the murder of all those medinans that represent a risk for the diffusion of his message and does not stop until exterminating all the Jews of the city. The massacre of the Banu Qurayza (murder of between 600 and 900 men and reduction to the slavery of women and children), the only Jewish tribe who was in Medina, is not a legend, but a fact with manifold historical references. Mecca was conquered in 630 and all the pagans who did not convert were assassinated. They are, therefore, classified hatreds of the supposed prophet as it follows: the pagans, who are atheistic or polytheists, who made him suffer much in Mecca during the first years, they are the worse ones, or conversion or death; next the Jews and Christians, who came to recognize him as prophets and envoy of God, and whose lives may be pardoned (it is not obligatory, it is possible also to be massacred according to the whim of the moment) if they are put under the Muslims and become citizens of third category resigning their elementary rights. In short, an exemplary life, model, as already said, for all sincere Muslim.
All this ample introduction was necessary to explain that Muslims are recommended, while living as a minority within other countries and communities, to adopt the attitude of Mecca, humble and conciliatory, becoming the use of force and the coaction as they become majority, like in Medina. In this way we will understand better the answer that Mansur Escudero gives the article of Elorza. It is a totally meccan retort, exhibiting courtesy, consideration and declaring, for nth time, the pacific nature of the Islam as well as the concept jihad, this last term void of kindness, that the we Infidels do not understand.
But Mansur Escudero, 56 years, born in Cordova, psychiatrist and old communist militant, turned to the Islam since 1978, also has a medinan side, who by all means reserves it for when it is between its coreligionists.
I have selected to some fragments of interviews and declarations that anyone can find by the internet:
1. Mansur goes away to conferences sponsored by Saudi Arabia
Webislam: You could summarize the objectives of the conference?
Mansur Abdussalam: The title of the conference was “the Islamic education in the West”. Under this motto, they were grouped - in five sessions of work, with two ponentes each one and a turn of interventions of the assistants a series of subjects in which they treated, among others, the role of mosques in the education of the Muslims, the impact of mass media in education, especially television and Internet, the Islamic education in state schools and private, the role of woman in education, methods of coordination between the western Islamic organizations and the institutions of the countries of Muslim majority, etc.
On the reference to the West in the title of the conference, it happened to indicate to me how - perhaps by mental laziness or intellectual lack of courage to define the new realities it is continued using a term that, little that we analyze it, we will see that it take us nowhere. What does the West mean nowadays? It seems clear that the concept was obsolete years ago with the landslide of the Soviet system. I believe that one would have to take the bull by the horns and to assume that the world is divided ideologically - and not geographically between the world of the Islam and the world of kufr.
WI: How was the conference developed? Who sponsored it...?
Mansur: The conference, that was celebrated during days 27, 28 and 29 of August, in the Sheraton hotel of Brussels, was sponsored by King Fahd. Logically, it was endorsed with the presence of high personalities of the Islamic world and, especially, of Saudi Arabia. Prince Abdelaziz, the Islamic ministers of Education, Subjects and Justice were present, the Secretary General of the Islamic World League, the ambassador of Saudi Arabia in Belgium, the Secretary General of the ISESCO... Also, all the development of the conference was followed by several Arab television networks and numerous newspaper correspondents and magazines of the Islamic world. Between the guests - more than two hundred, there were representatives of the main Islamic organizations in Europe, plus a numerous group of professors of different Saudi universities.
WI: The last month also you were in a conference in Tehran. Weeks ago the Secretary General of the Federation, Mehdi Flowers, participated in another one in Cairo. I have understood that prepares something in Tripoli for this month of September, Is something special happening in the Islamic world?
Mansur: Well, all the summers - logically, due to the vacations are prodigious in the organization of world-wide Islamic encounter. Mainly three countries: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran, try through them to reinforce their positions, influences and leadership on the set of the Muslims in the world. Each one has its style and its customer, although always the same script is repeated. In fact, in the majority of the occasions the conference, encounter or symposium, usually are not much more than mere pretexts to make count of loyalties. The positive side is the personal encounter with Muslims worldwide and the interchange of experiences with them.
WI: What you understand 'to reinforce its positions, influences and leadership in the world' and what role have the Spanish Muslims in all this?
Mansur- (smiles). Although I do not believe that it is the moment for entering details, yes it seems clear that Al-Andalus is the key of the new paradigm. All the Islamic world-wide strategy for which commonly called the West goes through Spain. Even Nostradamus knew that. You do not have more than to look at map of projected Islamic centers in Spain; a symbolic map that says much to those who understand. The Islamic Center of Gibraltar inaugurates a new stage within spiritual geography. The Saudi are masterful in spiritual geography, al hamdu liLlah!
WI: You are suggesting Saudis are not as clumsy as they seem to make believe?
Mansur: One is mistaken who believes that the Saudi are clumsy or incapable to do nothing positive for the Muslims in general. Saudis, Iranians and Libyans roles are distributed, like in the Greco-Roman comedy. Could the Saudis open centers in Spain or the United States if they did not put forth that corrupt pro-American image that they give? (laughter). But, who knows who will govern Saudi Arabia within 40 0 50 years? The theme is that the Islamic project has a historical perspective of centuries that escapes the habitual analyst. “They conspire, but Allah is the best of conspirators " (Qur'an). It is necessary to love the Saudis, because Allah knows more about the subject.
WI: That which you say seems very forceful, but I do not understand the role of a few Spanish Muslims in all this.
Mansur: Allah is the Master of history. Al- Ándalus will continue being al- Andalus for Muslims for all time. It is there, we have not created it. Here we have our dead, who are alive, waiting for the Day of the Resurrection. In the spiritual plane, today, saints of all the Islamic regions meet in Al Ándalus as they have always come to meet. The Islamic presence always has existed, uninterrupted, in spite of being expelled in XVII century. We are not few, but multitudes, but there are those who see it and those who do not.
The Spanish article provided above basically argues that the influential leader of the Islamic Commission of Spain, Mansur Escudero (a former Spanish Communist having some time ago reverted to Islam) in his prayer to "soften the heart" of the Bishop of Cordoba, is an example of a Muslim being "Meccan" -- i.e., nice and polite while in a position of weakness, biding his time to become "Medinan" -- aggressive and violent, should he ever come to acquire more power later on. In this duplicitous strategy, the Muslim, says the article writer, is only emulating the model of Mohammed himself.
Remember our poor Muslim mendicant Mansur just wants to pray in the chapel. Spread goodwill among men right? A little more from:
http://www.paralalibertad.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=5668&mode=thread&order=2&thold=0
2. Ceuta and Melilla, Muslim in 20 years, if Allah wants
WI: A present time question How do you see from the Federation the political and social situation of Ceuta and Melilla and what repercussions does it have for the Muslims?.
Mansur: With respect to Ceuta and Melilla it is necessary to analyze well all the factors that form their situation. On the one hand, there is a mixed population, mainly Christian and Muslim with Jewish and Hindu minorities. The Muslim population grows three times more quickly than the Christian and within 15 or 20 years she will be majority in both cities, in Shah Allah.
3. Mansur, the friend of ayatollahs
The Islamic revolution of Iran, that was led by imam Homeini, marked before and after in world-wide history
Mansur Abdussalam Escudero, president of the Spanish Federation of Islamic Religious Organizations, sends a message to the authorities and town of Iran, in the occasion of the centenary of the birth of imam Homeini
“With occasion of the centenary of the birth of the Imam Homeini, Allah is satisfied with him, has the honor to send a message of brotherhood and solidarity to him to you, all the Iranian authorities and the town brother of Iran, that Allah protects and them to them of his Peace.
As Muslim Spaniards we specially felt very united to our Iranian Muslim brothers and to the figure of imam Homeini, without whose effort for the cause of Allah, tIslam would not have recovered a privileged position in the context of the nations of the world.
It was of first who taught with his example to do in front, with the help of Allah, to the oppression that blossoming on the Islamic Umma on the part of a system that tries to end the values of our religion and of turning to us slaves of ídols that mislead man and destroy the peaceful coexistence on the Earth.
Al Andalus and Iran always have been united spiritually, in spite of the physical distance. Wise men and saints have been visited and taught mutually, establishing fecund relations that have produced throughout history excellent samples of sanctity, science and beauty in all the manifestations of the human life.
Not only the sweet Persian language has left numerous memories in the Spanish language, but that our arts, our music, different sciences that grew and they were developed during the glorious period of the Islamic government in Al Andalus they are full of the Iranian imprints and persist to the present time.
And like more recent contribution, the blessing that brought forth for all Muslims the triumph of the Revolution Iranian in 1979, which gave back hope to millions of Muslims worldwide and began the principle of a process of resurgence of the Islam.
The Revolution opened to the door to the aspirations of the Muslims of a more just world and a stronger Islamic Umma, debilitated as it were in favor of the opposing powers. The Islamic revolution of Iran marked before and after in world-wide history, when possible making the triumph of Islam on an economic, political and military system that was assumed invincible. It was the demonstration that it was possible to resist and, with the help of Allah, to win. And towards that victory it served as guide the Imam Jomneini, an extraordinary man for an extraordinary country, cradle of the human civilization and land of a living and fecund Islam.
I ask Allah, who the memory of the example of life of the Imam Homeini is reason for renewed encounter between the Spanish and Iranian Muslims, in such a way that we continue walking together towards the point where all the hearts come together.
Mansur Abdussalam Escudero
President of the Spanish Federation of Islamic Religious Organizations."
This last document I do not know where to fit it.... in the Islam of tolerance? in the one of the pacific coexistence?...because it takes a lot to see to the Iranian tyrants as benevolent beings. Does Mansur agree with the treatment given to the women in the Iran that Homeini refounded, an extraordinary man, according to Escudero?. How Homeini understood the concept jihad?. It reminds me of the praises to Papa Stalin, which does not go off key much, given the the old guard Communist past of comrade Mansur. Does he agree with the decision to send 14 year old children to war, as in the Iran-Iraq war, to whom were promised paradise if they died in combat? From where has he gotten this relation of the Persian with the Spanish? And these Iranian influences and imprints in music and art? How is Mansur’s federation financed? How much money is needed yearly and who provides it? Donations? Do you collect them in the mosques? Who pays for his international conferences?
Mansur Abdussalam Escudero, for now shows the humble and conciliatory face of Mahomet in Mecca, but he patiently waits for the moment to feel as in Medina.
¡Muchas gracias por la traducción! La entrevista pone en contexto las acciones de Escudero con respeto a la Catedral. Muy interesante.
(to the tune of that popular song...)
"Granada, I'm falling under your spell..."
Last out, first in?
We need more outspoken bishops, it seems to me!
"...responded to the rejection by praying outside the cathedral..."
Since Islamic prayer is not "a conversation with God" (but basically just a ritual) what was the function of this prayer?
Which Spanish church gets suicide bombed first? My guess is by a woman wearing a mantilla accompanied by a young girl, both boobytrapped, on some Islamic 'holy' day quite soon.
Mo in Mecca was never a wrecka
But in Medina he acted obscena
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