A message and a reply

I once saw a TV show called "Hitler's children" about children growing up in Nazi Germany.

One man said that as a boy, he loved being a Nazi because it helped him to transcend himself, and to be part of something much greater than himself. He saw it as something that was profoundly spiritual.

I imagine that this is how muslims see Islam. They just don't know that they are Nazis.

I once saw a TV show called "Hitler's children" about children growing up in Nazi Germany.

One man said that as a boy, he loved being a Nazi because it helped him to transcend himself, and to be part of something much greater than himself. He saw it as something that was profoundly spiritual.

I imagine that this is how muslims see Islam. They just don't know that they are Nazis.

JehanZeb:

As a man committed to peace who would never slander another religion, who is agahst at the thought that, as you see it, a bigot like Robert Spencer does the work he does, what are your thoughts on the following statement, its origins and its purpose:

"A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim, ‘O Muslim O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Please note, this is not a rhetorical question.

Mr. Spencer,

I think it's unfair of you to judge me and say that I do nothing for my people. If there are instances when Muslim women are mistreated by their husbands, Muslims like myself have been very outspoken and have taken action against this. I was the vice president of the Muslim Student Association at my campus and we had a guest speaker who was a female Muslim convert and she addressed the issue of spousal abuse to a widely non-Muslim audience. It was very educational, especially how one non-Muslim girl wrote an article about it in the school's newspaper. Muslims are consistent in reaching out to the non-Muslim community, even when certain non-Muslims don't reach out to us, WE reach out to them. My experiences with the MSA has been very positive and inspirational.

There is not ONE single Muslim in my family who abused his wife, mother, sister, daughter, or any other female member, and believe me when I say my family is HUGE! In fact, in some situations, women rule over the men, lol. I am still a student, but I still address important issues that concern Muslims AND non-Muslims. There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context. I find myself having to defend Islam more than educating fellow Muslims. I really wish you knew my family and my Muslim friends, they would really shatter the generalizations you have developed. Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. It teaches us the concept of Soul Mates and the Truth of it. God created a mate for everyone, in the same way Eve was created for Adam, peace be upon them. Why would someone abuse his/her twin half? Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself. The Love I speak of is one that cannot be expressed in mere words because my experiences go beyond that, but I believe it's important for everyone to understand that MANY Muslim men and women respect and Love each other in a very special way. I don't know any Muslim who abuses their wife or who would even THINK to do such an awful thing. They fall in Love with each other without touching before marriage, without seeing the woman's hair, because they see Beauty WITHIN. External beauty is temporary but inner Beauty is Eternal.

I don't have a problem with you citing the Qur'an, I have a problem with the way you are presenting it. Instead of encouraging dialogue and understanding, it seems that no matter what I say, you will remain unconvinced that Islam is in fact a peaceful and Loving way of life.

I have learned nothing good from criticizing a group of people. How can I when universal Love is such a beautiful thing?

Take good care,

~JehanZeb~

~JehanZeb~

"The ignorant is his own enemy"

We are no longer ignorant.

Excellent response Robert...as always.

Anyone...

Is there any mention of love in the Quran? Loving one's fellow man, the love of the Creator for his creation?

Anywhere? Anyone?

The comments of your dear admirer, JahanZeb, strike me as disguised threats. It begins with soothing words, but the end is always the same: convert or die. In other words, he's your typical Moslem thug, no different than the rest.

JehanZeb:

As a man committed to peace who would never slander another religion, who is agahst at the thought that, as you see it, a bigot like Robert Spencer does the work he does, what are your thoughts on the following statement, its origins and its purpose:

"A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim, ‘O Muslim O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Please note, this is not a rhetorical question.

JehanZeb deserves praise for this perfect illustration of why no phony "dialogue" is worthwhile with his belief system. Given his belief in the divine origin of the Qur'an, there simply exists no middle ground between those of us who regard it as a historically created creed of hate. This lack of middle ground forces JehanZeb into a corner; humiliated, he cannot falsify Robert's arguments, nor can he persuasively argue that the Qur'an has divine origins. Hence the pathetic recourse to as hominem attacks and straw man diversion.

JehanZeb, there is one thing on which we can agree, although you are unlikely to admit it: your belief system cannot argue its case based on the truth about its tenets, or its historical record. Any attempt to do so will, like your post, be met with contempt and derision. Are you man enough to admit this, or can you only whine?

I look forward to seeing your answer to the question about the hate filled quote that tokyobk asked above.

JehanZeb-
Do you actually read Robert's writings?

Robert does not "criticize and vilify your beautiful and peaceful way of Life", he points out all that is wrong with the negative (not the positive or peaceful) aspects of islam and their consequences.

If you worry about being picked on, work towards reforming your religion so there is no islamophobia.

Will you denounce islamic terrorist groups and those that apologize for or support? Just curious.

I believe all of the readers of this site know that there are muslims that don't practice these negative and cruel behaviors. I certainly do, as I work with one. You are not paying attention.

Mr. Spencer and AuntBea,

I invite you to my blog to read one of my short stories about two friends, a Muslim and a Christian.

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!1572.entry

Robert-

JehanZeb has the rights in America that no non-Muslim has in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere in the Arab and Muslim world. We have all learned that Islam is not about the universal practice of the Golden Rule, it is about dominance, deception, and war against the unbeliever ("War is deception").

Robert, your folks had to flee from Turkey in order to find safe haven in America (from his coreligionists") and yet you are accused of bigotry by this phony. It's amazing and offensive. JehanZeb should be demanding full equality of religious rights in Turkey, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Muslim world. He's another phony Muslim pretending to be a victim but is silent on the real victims in the Muslim world (including Darfur).

It is amazing that these creatures never refute the claims by citing parts of the Quran. They always resort to criticism of the one who has pointed out the problems. They cannot debate the merits of the arguement beause they lose every time.

JehanZeb, if I were to debate this issue the way Muslims do I would simply say that you are a liar and sneak away.

JehanZeb:

As a man committed to peace who would never slander another religion, who is agahst at the thought that, as you see it, a bigot like Robert Spencer does the work he does, what are your thoughts on the following statement, its origins and its purpose:

"A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim, ‘O Muslim O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Please note, this is not a rhetorical question.

It may be that JehanZeb is a very nice person, but I think that the reason for websites like JW is not so much that the Koran says this or that, or that Muslims as individuals are bad people, but that the instances and threats of violence by Muslims in the world have alarmed many people.
The critical examination of Islamic liturgy is a natural result of trying to find a cause of that menace. The ultimate goal is not to trash people, but to hopefully lead them away from destructive behavior via an honest discussion of possible motivations. Hence the Koranic quotations inciting violence or domination as a possible cause.
If JehanZeb is sincere, then there should be no objection to examining and rejecting those verses.

The beginning of jihad:

Sirat Rasul Allah (Life of the Prophet of Allah) by Ishaq,

Number 416
“At age 53, Mohammed sent forth his fighters to Waddan in search of the Quraysh. They returned without fighting.”

This first attempt failed. Not to be deterred in spreading “peace”, the search and destroy mission continued and after 7 attempts.

The Quraysh was the tribe (extended family) of Mohammed and many did not wish a fight:

Number 440 “…Some argued not to fight because half the Muslims were from Mecca and kin. … .”

Upon finding the enemy again – prayers for peace and understanding were not made.

number 440
“As Mohammed saw the Quraysh march into the small valley, he said ‘O Allah, here come the Quraysh, in their vanity and pride, contending with you and calling me a liar.
O Allah, give me the help you promised. Destroy them this morning!’”

An alternative to forgiveness and peaceful coexistence is extended to the first enemies of Islam:

number 443
“One of the Quraysh had a hot temper and decided on his own that he would drink from the well in front of the Muslims. Off he went to be met by Islam’s finest and strongest man, Hamza. In one blow Hamza’s sword cut through the man’s leg at the shin. He fell on his back with his leg pointed toward his companions, gushing blood. The man then started to crawl to the well. Hamza killed him by sword before he could reach the well.

Islam drew first blood, and the killing was a bad omen for the Quraysh.”

This “winning” method of spreading “peace and harmony” continued from that day and is responsible for –among other horrors- the murder of

Africans – 120 million; 11 million African slaves were shipped across the Atlantic, 14 million Africans were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. It is estimated that for every 1 slave who survived jihad, capture and transport, 5 died. Therefore for 25 million African slaves who survived, about 120 did not. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa.

Christians – 60 million; 9 million “martyred” by the “religion of peace” and 50 million more by jihad of the “religion of peace. Recently 1 million more African Christians have been murdered in the name of Islam.

Hindus – 80 million; Killed in the total jihad against India. “The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad.”

Buddhists –10 million; “Islamic jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India.”

Jews – All; The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective.

And continues to this day – now on global scale.

The Koran has 153,000 words; Bukhari’s Hadith – 338,000 words; Ishaq’s Sira – 408,000 words. Translation –17 percent is about Allah and 83 percent is about Mohammed.

JehanZeb-

Has it ever occurred to you that Robert may feel a moral obligation to confront the Muslim mandates to violence and oppression of unbelievers that hurt his relatives? (That has occured to me. Why not to you?) The mandates to violence and oppression of unbelievers is rooted in the Koran and Muslim teachings. You know that. Robert knows that. You are part of that oppression. You are no victim. The victims are non-Muslims-especially where Muslims are in control of anything. That's the plain truth and you know it's true.

One Arabic word to describe the comments of Mr. Zeb: "Al-Taqiyya!"

Mr. Zeb, Muslim females are the WORST-TREATED females in the world and you know it. WE all know it, so stop dishing out the "al-taqiyya," - you're wasting your breath.

People, you know Mr. Zeb's comment about his "HUGE" family? Well, this is because ALL Muslim females are not only expected, but obligated, to contribute to the "Umma" or Muslim community worldwide. I.e. Forced pregnancies. Muslim females have NO CHOICE whether or not they want to have children, or how many children! They're just expected and obligated to get pregnant as many times as they can which is why there are SO MANY MUSLIMS! The males dictate this biological oppression, among many other oppressions directed toward Muslim females.

Also, notice how Mr. Zeb mentioned in passing domestic violence against females, BUT NO MENTION of HONOR KILLINGS!

Hey Mr. Zeb - Could you please "honor" us with a comment on honor killings? Oh, and dispense with the "taqiyya," - we here at JW are informed and not vulnerable to your lies.

"JehanZeb:

As a man committed to peace who would never slander another religion, who is agahst at the thought that, as you see it, a bigot like Robert Spencer does the work he does, what are your thoughts on the following statement, its origins and its purpose:

"A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim, ‘O Muslim O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Please note, this is not a rhetorical question.
Posted by: tokyobk"

Answer the question, JehanZeb!

ANSWER THE QUESTION!

ANSWER THE QUESTION!

I notice what JehanZeb does is the typical shaming tactic used by many hate groups. They never actually address the charges, but try to shame people into quitting.

Right, "non-redneck." Watch Mr. Zeb NEVER address my comment on honor killings! Never address the twisted/perverted uber-patriarchal, uber-misogynist, "honor ethic" code of Muslim society in which males have carte blanche to murder females and NEVER experience any punishment for murder. Or rape. Or ANYTHING harmful to Muslim females. Rather, it's the females who are forced to take on all "dishonor" and frequently wind up dead while the males walk away scot-free from any consequences.

Muslim males have no accountability whatsoever in their "honor ethic" culture. Shame. Shame on you, Muslim males. Shame on you, Mr. Zeb! An "honor ethic" culture can be described with one word: Evil.

I have no reason to think that JehanZeb is lying about his family being moderate. There are moderate Muslims out there, even if they are indirectly and unwittingly supporting Jihad. But, JehanZeb is guilty of the all too common fallacy of accusing someone of generalizations and then suddenly citing a small group of people he personally knows as evidence of Islam's peaceful nature, which is a much more weaker generalization because it's based on such a tiny, practically non-existent sampling of the Muslim population.

JehanZeb is a Muslim, but he might as well be an atheist Islam apologist. He has the same logic (or lack of it), the same arguments, the same everything. I've seen his kind a million times before. Even if you point out the flaws in their thinking in excruciating detail, they'll just call you an uneducated Nazi.

Muslim females are slaves. And the Muslim males LOVE IT that way!

Fortunately there are a few Muslim women who have the guts to speak out against the oppression of women in Islam such as the meritorious Dr. Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali. Also, there is a book by a woman named "Souad" (first name only) who survived an honor killing by her uncle who set her on fire. It's called: "Burned Alive: A Survivor of an Honor Killing Speaks Out," by Souad (2003). Read this book, Mr. Zeb? No, I didn't think so.

People, I got this book at Books-A-Million, happening upon it while browsing. So, it can be easily found and I'm sure all JW's would be interested in this book. It really provides you with a personal account of the unspeakable oppression Muslim females live with every day. And die with every day.

My read on our moderate friend is that he is basically what he says he is.

He is in pre-9/11 + 5 years mode where it was still possible to guilt basically liberal people (and I consider Robert to be part of a Liberal project as are all people who believe in advancing freedom) into not believing their lying kuffir eyes and ears.

As we all notice, these types, whether they are active agents like CAIR or true believers, as I suspect our young film-maker is, never answer the question and always give lots of entirely universalistic observation about the generic goodness of Islam.

I have no doubt most Muslims believe that Islam is goodness and peace because they experience the universal through its particulars, even though those particulars, back here on planet earth, are loaded with the worst type of aggression towards all in the way of Mohammud`s will to power.

JehanZeb, it is good to read where you live the productive peaceful lifestyle the Hippie Generation created.

Pointing our all of Roberts hate and related Fobias. It is really quite rich. Considering your proper understanding of Islam, I would like to suggest a course of action for you.

You, and your "BIG FAMILY" could all move back to the Country you all came from. Then you would be in a much better position to enlighten your Co-Religionists as to the "true" meaning of what the Koran actually says.

This way, we Can all sleep better at Night.

Let's look at reality here. Being the Infidels or Kaffers or non-believers, or what ever the catch phrase in Vogue my be. The American People, maybe up to 99.9% of us, didn't give a rip about Islam. Didn't know, didn't want to know, and cared less if they did know. I know, I was one of them.

Now Granted, there was some confusion on my part as a result of all the terrorism going on but, you know, it was all Ecomonic and Jewishly inspired. That was what we were told anyway. Even though it didn't make much sence. Especially in light of American involvment in Arab Countrys. Defending them, helping them...

Then comes 9/11. Lo and behold. Muslims, Understanding the Koran the same way Robert understans it. Just kileded 3000 people on American Soil!

For some reason, the message of "love" in that event was lost on us.

Robert must have fell in that .01% of Americans who were conserned about Islam. However, there seem to be places where up to 99.9% of the population has the same Understanding of the Koran as Robert does.

Now, if your going to Preach. Lets not do so to the Choir. There are far to many places where your words would do a World of good in places like these..

Lets go for the numbers if you know what I mean. The percentage of return for your efforts will be more richly rewarded where the target market is 99.9% than where it is only .01%.

America- where return on Investment is King!

Your not practicing you film making by a work/study program in, say, Iraq. You know, Filming Humvees blowing up and stuff like that?

Just wondering where and what kind of Movies you were hoping for us all to see at some point in the future??

Excellent response, Robert. I'm sure you know much more about islam than a brainwashed 23 year old.

"al-jahil 'adoww nafsoh
The ignorant is his own enemy"

Ergo, muslims are their own worst enemy.

Oh my, where to start?

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Don't you feel ashamed of yourself at all for being so negative and prejudice? Is this the type of world you want people to live in? Do you want to keep spreading intolerance and ignorance in the United States? Do you want your children to be just as hateful and ignorant as you?"

This entire letter is a perfect example of how Muslims argue and 'debate.' They deflect from the original argument by pointing fingers and laying down accusations... only what's so interesting is that nearly ALWAYS they (Muslims) are more guilty of the behavior they are in fact accusing the infidel of.

JahanZeb, I would ask you: Aren't YOU ashamed of your Muslim brothers and sisters worldwide, seething with such naked and raw hatred at, well, everybody who's not a Muslim? Is this the type of world you want ppl to live in? Do you want to keep spreading intolerance and ignorance throughout the Muslim world with your schoolbooks that state that Christians are pigs and Jews are monkeys? Do you want your children to be just as hateful and ignorant as the millions of Muslims we see worldwide chanting 'death to America' in weekly rallies held after PRAYERS (of all things)?

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings."

Oh yeah? Well the holy book you worship and the god you praise says that I am no better than a farm animal, worthy only of your contempt if allowed to live as a dhimmi or the point of your sword if you wish to convert me. I am a lowly devil, bound for eternal hellfire, damned for life.

Worshipping your Koran shows that you care nothing about other ppl's feelings. Most Especially not dirty infidels.

Quote from JahanZeb:
"The Love I have for my people is greater than yours because my work stems from Truth and flows with compassion and peace, they came from my Heart."

Oh. Is that the same love that millions of Muslims feel worldwide about their fellow Muslims? Those same Muslims who are killing thousands of their innocent Muslim brothers and sisters every single day at all corners of this world? Is that the same 'love for your ppl'? Compassion? Peace? Suicide belts? Beheadings? Honor Killings? The stoning of rape victims? Female genital mutilation? IED's? Chlorine trucks blown up next to a market?

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Because of people like you, I have to worry about my children being picked on just because of their ethnicity and religious background."

That's interesting.
See, because of ppl like YOU, I have to worry about my children being blown up and slaughtered just because there's a 'religion' out there that tells its followers to kill me wherever I might be found - because I'm the WRONG ethnicity and the WRONG religion.

I think I'd rather only having to worry about my kids being 'picked on' than blown to bloody pieces.

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Because of people like you, I can't stand up for my rights without someone complaining and saying Islamophobia is some "myth.""

Because of ppl like you, other young, male Muslims, 'Islamophobia' exists...
It exists because one only needs to take a moment to look around the world on a daily basis to see hundreds of ppl, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, being slaughtered by young, male Muslims. On a daily basis, from some civilized Western country, there are news stories about plots by young, male Muslims to kidnap, behead, bomb, and/or kill innocent people. On a daily basis, we non-Muslims have to hear about yet more concessions and demands you make on us, on our Christian-based societies, to make you happy and comfortable in our world. We see you - young, male Muslims - trying to erase our culture, trying to change our way of life, trying to impose your sharia law on us. And all of this is what causes 'Islamophobia'. If Muslims are interested in eradicating 'Islamophobia' then, as Robert often says, stop killing non-Muslims in the name of your religion, stop lying to us, stop waging wars with non-Muslims worldwide, stop trying to replace our culture with your own. Until then, you bet I will be 'phobic' against Muslims, because I know that their god instructs them to wage war against me and mine.

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Just remember that peace, tolerance, and Love is being taught to you RIGHT NOW by a Muslim"

"Death to America!", "Death to Israel!", "Death to the infidel!", suicide belts, stonings, beheadings, kidnappings and forced conversions, IED's, honor killings, female genital mutilations, polygamy, a holy book that instructs its followers to kill all that are not like them, thousands of followers killing and blowing up innocent ppl worldwide and dying with the name of their god on their lips...

SEE THAT PEACE?!
FEEL THAT TOLERANCE AND LOVE?!

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Quote from JahanZeb:
"There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context."

There's that 'small minority' thing again.
AND that 'out of context' thing again.

Figure a small minority of 1.5 BILLION ppl is a pretty large sum. And that sum is getting larger every day.

And out of context, you say?
Just how is 'kill them wherever you find them' taken out of context? In what context would that passage disply this 'peace, tolerance, and love' for us dirty infidels that you keep talking about?

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. ... God created a mate for everyone, in the same way Eve was created for Adam... Why would someone abuse his/her twin half? Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself. ... MANY Muslim men and women respect and Love each other in a very special way. I don't know any Muslim who abuses their wife or who would even THINK to do such an awful thing."

Oh, this is rich.
Twin halves? That can hardly be, seeing as the koran I read told me that I am actually only worth half of a man. So twins, well, not quite. Maybe more like triplets.

And according to your prophet, god actually created about 4 Eve's for Adam.
Lucky guy.

Muslim males are good romancers and lovers, you say?
Yeah, I'm sure you make your wife feel loved and respected when you tell her you can't touch her for the entire week she's menstruating. Call her dirty, yeah there's romance for you.

Don't know any Muslims who would abuse their wife huh?
According to many human rights groups and women's groups, Muslim women in Muslim countries suffer the worst oppression, battery, and abuse of all women on the planet. And why should this come as a surprise when the holy book Muslim males worship actually INSTRUCTS them on HOW TO BEAT THEIR WIFE!

JahanZeb, you are living an absolute lie if you believe that Islam is about peace and love.

I'm sure we would love to see some quotes and passages from your koran talking about peace, tolerance and love -- only, the peace and love must be directed towards infidels and non-Muslims; NOT only directed towards other Muslims.

Here on JihadWatch, there are literally thousands of examples and passages sited DIRECTLY and word-for-word from the koran where violence and intolerance is instructed against women and non-believers. It's not as if we are pulling these things out of the ether; we are not making them up. You have come to the wrong place if you think your taqiyya is going to be able to sway the silly infidels here. We have educated ourselves to exactly what your koran and holy books say about us, and we will slowly but surely educate the rest of the world and expose your 'religion' for what it is.

Yes, a previous poster has good advice for you, Mr. Zeb: GO BACK to the Islamic country you came from since you love Islam so much. And, yes, take your "HUGE" family with you!

Good-bye!!!

P.S. I knew you would never address my comments, hypocrite.

JenBee - a great post.

Darcy, proud Islamophobe

JehanZeb writes:

There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context.

Islam teaches us True Love...

Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself.

Please then give the correct context for 4.34 of the Qur'an:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them...

Please explain how Professor Liyakatali Takim, a Muslim professor of religious studies at the University of Denver, took the Qur'an "out of context" when he explained in 1995 on this internet mailing list that "physical correction" against a woman based on 4.34 is indeed justified in some cases: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetWork/msg00015.html

If you are a loving person that would never harm a woman, more power to you. But that does not negate what the core texts of Islam dictate, nor does it help justify why those who follow those core texts and strive to follow the violent aspects Muhammad's "perfect example" shouldn't.

tokyobk-

I think the mind of this guy is systemic in Islam. They are always the victims (in their own mind) and this is part of the rationalization process that permits them to oppress others. They are "victims" in Palestine but one never hears about the victimization of the Jewish people that had to flee to Israel from Muslim countries. (They were lucky they had a Jewish state to flee to in Dar-al-Islam). And let's not forget Darfur. The whole Arab and Muslim world is silent on that. I guess in the Muslim mind all non-believers or Negro Africans have it coming to them-especially from the Arabs ("the best people").

The problem that Muslims are going to face in the future will be severe embarassment as everyone gets it re this "religion". It's not about the universal practice of the Golden Rule. The mandates to violence and oppression of unbelievers are rooted in the Koran and Muslim teaching. Facts are facts. Muslims know that. They just don't want any Kuffir majority knowing that.

If I were born a Muslim I would want to deny the facts too on the real nature of my religion. I would bullshit that it's about the universal practice of the Golden Rule. I would not want folks to know the truth. If one is honest in Islam one is labeled an extremist by everyone. It's dangerous to be an honest Muslim.

But the cat is out of the bag, the horse is out of the barn, and the truth is out about Mohammad. The bullshit is not working anymore.

Frank--

If you notice, that is how people are starting to debate Muslims, online and on TV.

Just keep asking the questions; about Sura 9, about Hadith like that and many more, since the Koran makes it very clear what the relationship is supposed to be between Muslim and Infidel.

It is clear to me that a nine year old armed with logic could defeat the most learned Imam in the world in a simple debate.

I am one of the millions who would have never spent any time criticizing anyones beliefs, no matter how crazy I thought them, a mere six years ago.

Now , I consider it my duty to present Islam as it has been understood and practiced since inception, to Muslims and other kuffir.

Jehanzeb:

Your method of argument is so typically Muslim. Instead of answering the arguments that Mr. Spencer makes, you attack him personally instead. For your information, this is called argument ad hominem. In order to improve your debating skills, I suggest that you visit the following site:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/index.html

At the above site, you can learn what the most common flawed thinking processes are and avoid them.

I hope this helps.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41022.htm

"Then again he was not attracted to the real Islam but a camouflaged and sugarcoated version of it called Sufism.

"Many people who are drawn to Islam and fall into its trap are at first attracted to Sufism and its mystical and relatively tolerant teachings.

"The fact is however that Sufism that was created during the eighth and ninth century A.D. was a reaction against the unenlightened, impersonal and draconian nature of Islam. It was then that many Persian thinkers, dismayed with the inhumane nature of Islam, tried to reform it by searching for deeper mystical meanings in apparently asinine assertions made in the Quran.

"The problem with Sufism is that it lacks legitimacy. As William VanDoodewaard says: “For, if the Sufi spiritual quest is to be viewed as legitimate, even within Islam itself, it must be rooted in the Quran and the sunna of Muhammad.” [1]

"Andrew Rippin, in his work Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, also states that “Sufis.. in their search for legitimation of their spiritual quest [must show] whether Islam as a religion contained within it a spiritual-ascetic tendency from the very beginning.” [2]

"But the Quran is a manual of terror and the sunna depicts Muhammad as a terrorist. Islam is bereft of any spirituality. Sufism is a borrowed ideology and invented by the catholically ingenious but hopelessly sycophant bootlicking Persians who did not have the temerity and the insight to denounce Islam as an idiotic cult of a crazed man and reject it in its entirety as an stupid cult but instead sheepishly tried to reinterpret this graceless doctrine of ignorance, dress it with rationality and sugarcoat it with alien un-Islamic philosophies taken from all kinds of sources, Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, Gnostic, Neo-Platonism, Hinduism and even Buddhist to make it toothsome to their own refined mystical palate.

"What escaped the ken of the benighted Sufi sages is that Islam cannot be reformed and the Quran is a clear book of violence and hate that cannot be reinterpreted differently from its obvious meaning. And that it is better to spill the poisonous drink than try to sweeten it to mask its bitter taste.

"What the Sufis did was a crime of foolishness. They taught a different religion but fearing rejection, they claimed it to be the inner message of Islam. Sufis claim that Sufism is the kernel of Islam while the Sharia is its outer shell. The truth is the opposite. The kernel and core of Islam is the Quran, which is poison of mind and spirit. Sufism is only a gloss that masks it.

"Far less people would have fallen into the trap of Islam had it not been camouflaged with exotic Sufi interpretations. The Sufis could not reform Islam or make it more humane. All they did is to conceal its ugliness and thus make it even more dangerous trap for the unwitting victims."

JehanZeb is utilizing taqiyya and kitman techniques: misdirection, changing the subject. In this case he resorts to name calling and does not refute Robert's argument by providing passages from the Koran.

In any case, the "dual" Koran, the part written in the Mecca campaign coupled with the part written during the Medina campaign, are often self-negating. This is confusing to the Westerner that is not accustomed to dualism, or the thought process in which two opposing concepts can be true at the same time: everything is permissible when the outcome favors Islam and Muslims.

Thus in the mind of Muslims, the woman forced to marry early and bear as many new Muslims as possible is not being abused, nor is denying an education which could make such a women restive, and arranging a marriage and enforcing sexual purity is not abuse because the individual can not exist outside the organized extended family unit that is the Islamic ummah, thus making "honor" killing necessary and acceptable: everyone must know and respect his or her place in the family hierarchy.

Is this what we want in the West?

What bothers me most about his post is his arrogance and self-righteousness:

No matter what you do, Muslims will always be here. And I know that bothers you. Just remember that peace, tolerance, and Love is being taught to you RIGHT NOW by a Muslim

There is nothing tolerant or peaceful about this man and he exemplifies the danger of the presence of Muslims among non-Muslims: they continue demand more than they should receive as a tiny minority in the United States: 3-6 million out of 300 million.

Remember that Mohammed started with 50 followers and seduced the rest by appealing to their baser insticts that could be best acquired through war: rape and pillage, and enrichment through plunder and the taking over war captives which were then fodder for the slave markets and harems.

The situation is no different today: The ultimate goal is power and all that temporal power brings, which brings us to what one would achieve in Paradise: "72 Virgins" or perhaps grapes, and other creature comforts.

"Muslims will always be with us" because they chip away at resolve, beat everyone down, or immerse the vulnerable in their totalitarianism.

JehanZeb did not true to refute the historical record or the Koranic passages quoted by Spencer: he resorted to deception and name calling as did the "perfect model of behavior," Mohammed, who also could not prop up his "religion" without the use of violence. (Physical, psychological, and spiritual.)

Instead of refuting the historical record, Muslims are attempting to revise history, to erase the memories which are inconvenient, and to disallow discussion of inconvenient passages of the Koran by resorting to the techniques used by this poster: name calling and misdirection.

By-the-way, one can not slander a belief system nor a person that is long dead. What constitutes a lie is the intent of the speaker, not whether or not what say is true or false.

As for negativity and prejudice, well, Islam is the most negative and prejudiced of the mainstream belief systems, putting everyone down and creating an atmosphere of fear and distrust, making it incompatible with the values of the West.

Not sure our friend will return and if he does he will not address any issue with a thoughtful repsonse, I am afraid. But lets add some other Muslim sources that a person full of love like him might elucidate the true meanings for us:

Ishaq:326 "Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’"Ishaq:327 "Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’"Ishaq:517 "Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust."

Ishaq:576 "Allah and His servant overwhelmed every coward. Allah honored us and made our religion victorious. We were glorified and destroyed them all. Allah humiliated them in the worship of Satan. By what our Apostle recites from the Book and by our swift horses, I liked the punishment the infidels received. Killing them was sweeter than drink. We galloped among them panting for the spoil. With our loud-voiced army, the Apostle’s squadron advanced into the fray."

note how the muslim disappeared when faced with hard facts

however someone must be really stupid to be proud of the following event

"If there are instances when Muslim women are mistreated by their husbands, Muslims like myself have been very outspoken and have taken action against this. I was the vice president of the Muslim Student Association at my campus and we had a guest speaker who was a female Muslim convert and she addressed the issue of spousal abuse to a widely non-Muslim audience."

muslims abuse their wives and you explain wife beating to a NON-muslim audience?

"There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context. "

56.6% of egyptians think it's ok to kill christian copts. Is that a small minority? maths tells me it's MAJORITY.

"Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. "

what about the part where your prophet had female slaves for sex?

is that treating women equally?

"Why would someone abuse his/her twin half?"

don't know, ask muslims

"I believe it's important for everyone to understand that MANY Muslim men and women respect and Love each other in a very special way."

tell it to all the counselling centres full of abused muslim women looking for shelter from honor killings

"They fall in Love with each other without touching before marriage, without seeing the woman's hair, because they see Beauty WITHIN."

that's called FORCED marriage and it's done to grant citizenship to fellow muslims abroad

"I have a problem with the way you are presenting it."

.....The Muslims really hate it when their secret agendas are exposed in plan view for all those who care to judge for themselves...Muslims actions across the globe speak much louder that the flowery speech of this poster...

Ban Muslim Immigration now...

"I am one of the millions who would have never spent any time criticizing anyones beliefs, no matter how crazy I thought them, a mere six years ago". Posted by: tokyobk at February 25, 2007 10:51 AM

You nailed the truth for a lot of people in your comment.

Robert is right. All (Muslims included) have to confront the truth, though it is embarrassing for Muslims to face the truth re the mandates in the Koran and Muslim teaching re unbelievers. All the other religions teach (in one way or other) the universal practice of the Golden Rule. Not Islam.

Islam has a supremacist attitude to unbelievers who do not treat Muslim beliefs as if they are scientific fact. Islam must dominate, not be equal to any other religion in Saudi Arabia or anyplace else. That's the system. We all have to treat Muslim beliefs (including their doctrines re images of Mohammad, e.g.)as scientific fact. If an unbeliever speaks or acts otherwise than their system, then all the rationalizations are in place (as per Muslim doctorine) to oppress, to lie lie to, to intimidate, or even kill the unbeliever.

Who would want to be a non-Muslim in Dar-al-Islam? Islam is oppressive, especially in Saudi Arabia.

Tokyobk,

As a man committed to peace who would never slander another religion, who is agahst at the thought that, as you see it, a bigot like Robert Spencer does the work he does, what are your thoughts on the following statement, its origins and its purpose:

"A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim, ‘O Muslim O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Please note, this is not a rhetorical question.

You didn't really expect that Jehanzeb character to answer your Question did you?

Is he really saying "We only blow you up,behead you, want to keep you in perpetual slavery, subservient to Islam" because we love and respect you?

Robert, how did it feel being scolded like that? I'm surprised that he didn't issue you a time out. If that was a letter of love, then I would hate to read an angry letter.

I guess Muslims can't help themselves, look at who their prophet was.

All of the above is so scary I have shivers down my spine.
JennBee, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks so much.

This is simply not the proper venue for a truly meaningful dialogue on interfaith respect and tolerance.

The place to have that discussion would be the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Mekka.

Let me know when you are ready!

JehanZeb:

When you come to Jihadwatch you should come to address those issues that are most disconserting, and are written into the Quran that give us infidels the greatest of concerns and are clearly being practiced by a large part of the Islamic community throughout the world.

If you fail to address what is considered the perfect words in the Quran whether it is the Mecca version, or the Medina version than you serve no productive in roads into the problems with Islam;

Your letter that defines your personal and possibly noble behavior among friends and family tells us very little and does not reflect the teachings in the Quran that we discuss here in Jihadwatch.

You are young man who is apparently practicing things that we can all appreciate but sadly much of what you have written does not reflect what is truly written in the Quran, and the Ahadiths.

Islamic teachings reflect antisemitism calling Jews apes, and pigs,

They reflect the degradation of women. Mohammed believed women had less intelligence than men saying woman's credibility is due to "the defiency of her intelligence (hadith 1:301)

Mohammed said that the evidence of two woman is equal to the witness of one man (hadith 1:301)

Men are in charge of women and if they rebel, scourge them (Quran Surah 4:34)

The Quran calls for Muslims to not befriend us infidels. Please take the time to discuss how you feel about the writtings in the Quran that most concern us. If you choose to ignore them and not confront them, then you are either deceiving us or yourself.

Come forward and meet the challenge that makes your comments purpose filled!

Just imagine some plain speaking Muslim telling the truth re Israel:

"Look, it's not about the holocaust or refugee camps or land for peace. All that crap is for PR. The truth is we have to keep the refugee camps going or we are out of business.

"The truth is that Jews are supposed to feel subdued in Dar-al-Islam. All those Jews that fled to Israel from Arab countries, who are now non-Dhimmis, must be returned to their rightful status. In any case, the Koran tells us that Jews are a debased people, and a Jewish State is an insult to Islam. Yeah, yeah, I know the Jews were oppressed and second class citizens in the Gulf states, in Iraq, etc. But they had it coming to them".

"While we're on the subject, Islam is not about the universal practice of the Golden Rule. We only say that crap to Kuffirs when we are in the minority. But once we are the majority, the Kuffirs learn the truth. Islam must dominate. Saudi Arabia is our ideal".

JehanZeb - check this out:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015415.php#comments

Should we be "feeling the love" after reading that?

And you have the damned nerve to lecture us on spreading hate for trying to warn others about what is surely coming if we don't wake up about Islam and continue to permit large scale Muslim immigration into our infidel countries. You're the one who ought to feel ashamed about your own ignorance of Islam's source texts, its actual history and what is happening all around the world today, where infidel populations are shrinking everywhere there are Muslim majorities. Instead you spout off a bunch of meaningless kumbaya platitudes and then pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority. It would be laughable if it weren't so utterly nauseating.

"There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context."

...here is this lie...yet again....all the Muslim terrorists continue to quote the Qur'an. and the terrorists are large in number and spread across the globe...too many to be called "only a small minority."....yada yada yada....

I doubt very much that ~JehanZeb~ will be back to discuss any of the points raised in this thread.

/quote
al-jahil 'adoww nafsoh
The ignorant is his own enemy.
/unquote

Indeed. Look in the mirror when you say that.

JehanZeb will never convince me that 9/11 was a small matter.

Zeb, you are the one who should be feeling ashamed -- ashamed of YOUR religion.

The 23-year-old gentleman who wants to be a film director should first clean out his own house, ( Islam ) before saying anything bad about non-Muslims. Or better yet, check out the news channels to see where the terrorism is coming from, that is from his faith community.

Let's see, 24% of Muslims in the UK said that the 7/7 attacks were justified. And that's just the honest Muslims.

A "small minority", indeed.

Poll after poll points out the hostility of muslims towards nonmuslim civilizations, and their support of violence towards said civilizations. See Thailand, for example.

Please don't pee down my neck and tell me it's raining.

JehanZeb,

I am right now reading a book by Nonie Darwish, the daughter of the famous Egyptian, Mutafa Hafez. She grew up in a country full of polygamy. According to Darwish, the concept of polygamy so taints the friendships and destroys trust in a marriage, that healthy families are impossible to develop in Islam.

If you go back and analyze the lives of the famous terrorists today, you will find a childhood marred by the wreakage of Islamic principles of men's prolifigate sexuality and it's death knell on the children's love of their parents. The man is appeased at all levels to keep his loyalty to his first wife, and if she fails to satisfy him at some point, all the children know and resent the fact that she has failed them as well. Divorce and remarriage are the result. OBL's life followed this same pattern. After being the son of a wealthy and great man, Osama was dealt the blow of stepping down to be a his father's driver's stepson. OBL himself outraged his entire family by marrying a 14 year old young girl after 9-11. His wife of 27 years, who gave him 11 children left and went home to her parents in Syria.

What a terrible way to live. All the family is held hostage by a man's sexual proclivities, given the right and the sanction to marry as many as four wives, making his wife's life hell.

"Film director."

What is the title of the book, Kay? I'd like to read it.

That's a great last sentence - "All the family is held hostage by a man's sexual proclivities, given the right and the sanction to marry as many as four wives, making his wife's life hell."

How horrible is a female's life under Islam!

No, we're not going to see the Muslim again because we don't fall for his peace and brotherhood "taqiyya" and because we're aware of the "ad Hominem" attacks he (they) use as weapons to distract and disarm us.

One other thing I want to comment upon. You said this:

Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters. I think there's still a lot you need to learn about being a human being.

**************

Mr. JehanZeb, everytime that you say "... has no Son, and is not begotten", you are demonizing my religion. I am deeply offended by this statement that is said FIVE times per day in your salat.

**************

I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings.

****************

You do so FIVE times each and every day. You specifically deny the Sonship of Jesus Christ, deny the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and deny the diety of Jesus Christ.

This is deeply insulting to me and to ALL Christians who love Jesus Christ.

So, if you CARE so much about others' feelings, will you eliminate this phrase from your chants? Yes? If no, then we are NOT "brothers and sisters" in any way shape or form.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. Isaiah 45, Philippians 2.

Quote:JehanZeb
"The Love I speak of is one that cannot be expressed in mere words"

Then better learn to express it in words. Anything else sounds like a threat.
What about us who don't want to receive this love, who don't need this love, who don't want to hear about his love and who even reject this love??

Just wondering out of the 99 names of Allah if there is a 'loving God' name to him?

Not so sure if the word 'kill' is used more than the word 'Love' in the Koran as to maybe help balance the more descriptive elements of war VS love compared to its details with negative expressions I did read somewhere 1 in 5 passages have violent descriptions in the Koran.

I find that Western Muslims feed off the positive vibe of the host democracy as their own. Humanistic behaviour not so related in the Koran like 'Love' is more of a social influence than a religious one. 'Love and peace' in it's many forms and tolerance in Islam strikes as odd because Islamic countries by it's laws show little evidence of multi-cultural mixing and freedoms of expression let alone the migrants wanting to mix into democracy without demanding changes.

These things take route in the religion so I wander when man's nature calls for some humanity outside of Islam they use the religion as the inspiration and deny their own nature when it could be the culture of their adopted Christian love influence in Democratic countries that make so called 'love element' to be expressed by the Koran. When it's not so spread evenly in the scriptures as their own behaviour in their moderate stasis.

Really. I'm not the least bit interested in your Muslim "love" AND I DON'T HAVE TO BE!!!

So, take your Muslim "love" back to your Muslim Lands - Plague, Begone!

~JehanZeb~----.....Asks if we ever visited a Mosque, when we go. we will be ready......

..from the past...

TIPS FOR VISITING A MOSQUE...

"Before visiting a mosque, please google the phrase "taqiyya and tu-quoque" and arm yourself with knowledge. Be prepared to ask -- sweetly, in an Infidel-Wants-to-Know Mode -- about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha when she was nine, about the assassinations of Asma bint Marwan and others, about the massacre of the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khaybar oasis, about the decapitation of 600-900 helpless prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, and about so much more. Be sure to mention the Hadith.

Do not let the presentation to those Infidels (hmmm, doesn't that spicy chicken and that pita, and then the honeyed dessert, all waiting for us afterwards, smell good, I can't keep my mind off it, how nice these people are, what good hearts they have to invite us in to share their food and their faith) be allowed to finish without making the most that you possibly can out of that "question time." And bear in mind that you will only be called on once, so you had better have your questions ready -- not really to be answered, but so that they can provoke thought and unease in your fellow Infidels who have come, unlike you, without any mental weapons whatsoever.

Ask about the relevance of what Muhammad did and said for today's Muslims. Ask why he is called in the Qur'an "uswa hasana" and in Islamic tradition "al-insan al-kamil"? If told such things as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha must be "put in the context of their times," don't forget to ask why virtually the first act of Khomeini in Iran was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine.

Oh, and ask about the concept of the "Dhimmi." Ask what was required of Christians and Jews as non-Muslims under Muslim rule. What did they have to do, in order to remain alive, as "Protected People," rather than dead, as Unprotected People, or to prevent their being forcibly converted -- as opposed to the slow conversion, over time, which was usually the only way open to them to escape the onerous, sometimes unendurable situation of being a dhimmi.

And afterwards, when the talk and question time have come to an end, and when other Infidels come up to you, quietly, to thank you for speaking up and speaking out, and expressing their own inarticulate unease, tell them a few of the books you have read. Tell them about Bat Ye’or, Ibn Warraq, Spencer and Bostom. Tell them of this and other websites (www.faithfreedom.org, www.dhimmitude.org, www.answering-islam.org, for a start). Agree to take their names and phone numbers or emails, and to send them a further list so that they, too, will not merely rely on the nonsense and lies fed to them by the soft-voiced propagandists.

Be sure, that evening, to count how often those propagandists mention something about "the three abrahamic faiths" and the "three monotheisms" that "have so much in common." See how often one of the Muslims present tries to use crocodile-sympathies to deplore the mistreatment of Jews by Christians, as opposed to what he will claim is the "tolerance" of Islam, and do agree with him on one point: that Islam manages to mistreat all non-Muslims.

See if there is any mention of Hindus, or perhaps bring with you to the evening a Hindu colleague of the completely unfoolable kind, so that his mere presence in the audience will unnerve the speaker and others. See if there is mention of the 60-70 million Hindus murdered under Muslim rule, and if not, point out that strange omission sometime during the evening.

Oh, and after that? When you all go to the room with the steaming table of that chicken (or lamb) and pita bread and that delicious baklavish dessert? Go right in, along with the other Infidels, mingling with the handful of Muslims in that mosque who agreed to come out that night and agreed to allow the defilement of their mosque by these Infidels, for it was all in a good cause: defending, shoring up, the Faith, until such time as it becomes strong enough here and in other Infidel lands, so that no more Mosque Outreach, no more phony politeness and sweet reason, will be needed with these Infidels.

Break the silence of the lambs. But not by bleating. By studying in advance just enough about Islam -- enough to make things hot that night in the mosque, and not only for that waiting chicken, that pita, that rice.

Posted by Hugh at August 17, 2006 07:18 AM "

That is, "Now they call me infidel" by Nonie Darwish.

It confirms everything you suspect about the state of women in Islamic countries.

The state that a woman lives in, is just horrible.

OK who is funding this "film makers" propaganda to give him time to attack Mr. Spencer, pay for his college, pay for his computer and expenses?????

That is the story.....follow the money of this 5th column anarchist....and then send him to Iraq where he can play with his Muslim brothers and sisters.

REFRASE: capitals = added new elements.

These things take route in the religion so I wander when man's TRUE nature calls for some LOVING humanity outside of Islam they SAY IT'S THE religion TO BE THE inspiration. THIS LOVE CAN ALSO BE FOUND IN NON RELIGIOUS FAMILIY IT DOES NOT NEED TEACHING. BUT SOMETIMES PEOPLE deny their own INFLUENCE when it could be ALSO A SOCIAL ELEMENT OUTSIDE ISLAMIC CULTURE THAT FEEDS IN EXTRA DIMENTIONS OF OVERAL LOVE TOWARDS OTHERS THAT ARE NOT FOUND IN THE TEACHINGS. The culture of their adopted Christian influence in Democratic countries make THE so called 'love element' BONUS IN THE Koran FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING IT LOOK ON THE SAME LEVEL. When it's not so spread evenly in the scriptures as their own behaviour in their moderate stasis MAKES THEM DO SO FAR MORE THAN THOSE WHO STUDY ISLAM TO THE CORE.

"I've been pulled over by police officers so many times while working on my independent films,"

....WERE you filming skyscrapers,bridges, tunnels, airports, railroads,ferrys,dams,power plants,sports stadiums, military installations,shipping facilities,or just the churches or places of religion for Jews?......

Thanks, Kay. I will definitely get it and look forward to reading it.

"Because of people like you,"'

...The hate is beginning to show.....This man is Christianaphobic.....

Where does this spaced out dufus live? No way does he live in a Muslim country. He's wormed his way into the West.

He should go to Syria or Saudi or Iraq and preach this claptrap. I'm sick of Muslims calling me ignorant. In fact I know a lot more about Islam than they want me to. I know all the evil shit in their Koran. I know they are called upon to emulate a false and evil prophet. I know more than enough.

"I just want you to know that Muslims all around the world, including the CAIR organization will always be there to stand up and speak out against your immaturity, ignorance, and prejudice."

The above-referenced paragraph disqualifies this ham eater and his opportunity to present a legitimate argument.

I have news for him, the CAIR organization continues slowly but surely to lose credibility in the U.S., so if this rodeo clown is relying on CAIR to help him, where do his loyalties and intelligence truly stand? Probably somewhere within Islamism.....Something the West can certainly do without.

REFRASE 2:

The culture of their adopted Christian influence in Democratic countries make THE so called 'love element’s A BONUS to be added IN THE Koran FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING IT LOOK ON THE SAME LEVEL as their surroundings. When it's not so scriptural evident be it tolerance expressed thinly by Islamic law says contrary. Their moderate stasis MAKES THEM behave FAR MORE human THAN THOSE WHO STUDY ISLAM TO THE CORE.

No matter what you do, Muslims will always be here.
- An aspiring filmmaker

Not so quick.

Muslim expansion strategy has basically boiled down to breeding in large numbers, moving into new areas, being bad neighbors, and displacing the native populations who move to the ‘suburbs’. A solid plan really. It worked then and is working now, especially since it falls right in line with left-leaning democratic governments looking to consolidate power.

But in a lot of ways we are living in an inertia-based bubble. Our permitting and regulation processes have pushed factories to less regulated countries. The 12.5% of the population that pay 88% of taxes (not including capital gains which probably make the number closer to 94%) are losing their political power. It is logical that the electorate will begin to actively target the tax base in years, not decades. There is no shortage of Caribbean countries to welcome high net worth individuals. Hello Anna Nichole. The whole thing is unstable and can fall apart quickly. Which brings us back to Plato and the fact that America is the last stop for most of us.

Among forms of government one is preeminently right and is the only real government, in which the rulers are found to be truly possessed of science…And whether they purge the state for its good by killing or banishing some of the citizens, or make it smaller by sending out colonies somewhere…so long as they act in accordance with science and justice and preserve and benefit it by making it better than it was, so far as is possible, that must at that time and by such characteristics be declared to be the only right form of government.

"....WERE you filming skyscrapers,bridges, tunnels, airports, railroads,ferrys,dams,power plants,sports stadiums, military installations,shipping facilities,or just the churches or places of religion for Jews?......"

priceless

JehanZeb: "it hurts and disturbs me that you make a living off of criticizing and vilifying my beautiful and peaceful way of Life."

If that's how you live, good for you. It's too bad your brothers in Islam don't see it the same way. Turn on your TV, watch the news for 5 minutes, see Iraq for example, muslims hate themselves. All we see from Islam is kill kill kill. This is how Muslims conduct themselves all around the world. All this violence is born in Islam. It is not hard to connect the dots.

As usual, with you Muslims, you come out saying how peaceful Islam is and skip over the facts. Muslims never address the verses in the Koran that promote intolerence of everything except Islam and neither did you. You always praise how peaceful Islam is, You credit and glorify organizations like CAIR, a front for terror.

"Hate never did the world any good...". Tell that to your brothers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Pakistan, Malaysia, Phillipines, and on and on. Your Imams and mosques will not condemn terrorism or violence but continually use our kind laws and freedoms against us to evade the issues and play the victim game. I see no Muslims confronting the extremists, cleaning up hate speech in mosques or ejecting those responsible. I see no muslims addressing those hate clauses in the Koran, at all, instead they always switch the subject as you chose to do.

And again, you accuse people like Spencer and others of being intolerent of the intolerent, you do nothing to help your selves.

99.9% of all terror in the world is conducted by Muslims. You go ahead and preach to us all how peaceful Islam is. We don't buy it.

Sounder

"....WERE you filming skyscrapers,bridges, tunnels, airports, railroads,ferrys,dams,power plants,sports stadiums, military installations,shipping facilities,or just the churches or places of religion for Jews?......"

priceless

Posted by: StillFedUpAgain
------------------------------------------------
I tryed back tracking but could not find where this came from but here is some advice.

I know you have to call authorties before you film public places and also tell the police what you are filming if it involves fictional violence. But even so you are at risk for not saying that you are filming in certain public places if you don't say you are doing so. It's common sense to explain your actions depending if you are talking about large film crews and equiptment. Some places like shopping centres don't even allow photography you need permission.

Darcy, here is an article that never fails to make my blood boil:

Nushaba Hussein, chair of the Human Rights Action Committee of the Muslim Parliament says recognising polygamy would give legal recourse to women should their husband die intestate or if the relationship fails. She cites the case study below as an example:

Samira's story Samira came from a poor family in Pakistan. A marriage was arranged for her with a much older man in the UK. Shortly after her arrival, her husband died. Ejaz, a rich businessman, whose wife was ill and infertile offered to make her his second wife, and married her in a Muslim ceremony at a London mosque. She moved into the home that Ejaz shared with his first wife. Samira had two children from Ejaz but his first wife became jealous and eventually threw her out with her two children.

Samira's story...
Her compatriots treated her contemptuously and called her a loose woman. In their eyes she was a shamed woman with two failed marriages. No family would want to be associated with her, and certainly no other man would marry her again.

Ejaz stopped paying maintenance for Samira and her children. Within her community Samira was treated as a single woman with two illegitimate children. In western society this generally no longer carries a stigma, but in the Asian community where values are more conservative, life can be made impossible.

Samira has no access to the courts to demand payment for herself as a legal wife, neither is she able to obtain maintenance for the children and rights of inheritance for them.

What the Muslim Parliament says:
According to Nushaba Hussein, Samira's case highlights the vulnerability of women in polygamous marriages and making it legal would give leave them less open to abuse.

'It does happen that Islam's very strict conditions for polygamy are occasionally abused. These men would like to keep subsequent marriages clandestine so that women can't do anything if the they choose to renege on their duties, or leave them,' she adds.

'They are reduced to nothing more than mistresses, which in Islamic society is very shameful. They don't have a right to inheritance, which is a problem when husbands die intestate. I know of cases where the husband has provided a wife and his children with a house but not made a will, and it has been taken away from them once he has died, leaving them homeless'

The Muslim Parliament's call for recognition of polygamous marriages has been met with a mix of criticism ...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy1.htm

Notice here how the imams who performed the marriage have not done a bloody thing to help this woman. Have their licenses been revoked? Are they still deceiving young women and marrying them to old men? Are all such deceived women thrown upon the state to rescue them from evil lacivious old men and their imams?

This is the call to force the state to rescue women deceived by imams, supposed holy men who abuse their trust!

Disgusting!

Is this what we are to expect for America? Over my dead body!

JehanZeb,

"Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters. "

I am posting to you in disagreement, in response. First, you forgot that Abraham never maried the slave, ( Hagar ), servant of Sarah, his wife. So Ishmael was never born in a mariage. Second, Abraham got Hagar pregnant because Sarah could not have a baby and Abraham sinned in not trusting God to provide a male heir, who would latter be born to Sarah and Abraham, Issac. Third, Sarah, a few years latter had seen Ishmael get abusive towards young Issac and Sarah directive Abraham to throw both Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, out. Fourth, you are not a FULL brother in the spiritual sense until you come to faith in Christ, the Lord. The you would be a FULL spiritual brother. Fifth, Abraham would frankly not be too pleased with the violence that is coming out from the Muslim community world wide against non-Muslims.

Frankly, the SHAME should be expressed by you for the violent acts that your own in the Muslim community commit against non-Muslims.

There is a college basketball game of a favorite college team, men's wise I must get back to. Accept this as a gentle correction.

darcy

Spot-on comments.
For a brilliant insight into the female Muslim/Pakistani mind, there's nothing better than Elizabeth George's "Deception on His Mind."
She's the best mystery writer today. Much better than P.D. James, whose characters always bear the mark of their creator.
And, of course, "Deception..." is a page turner.
I wish I had it with me on this snowy day in my mid-Atlantic location.

What did I say about sneaking away? Mr.JehanZeb does not have the courtesy or intestinal fortitude to reply since 0928.

JehanZeb as a aspiring filmmaker you realize that the decpiction of the human form is considered haram in Islam and if you lived in a country where sharia law is implemented fully like Taliban ruled Afganistan you wouldn't be allowed to be a filmmaker.

"I don't have a problem with you citing the Qur'an, I have a problem with the way you are presenting it.""

......Muslims hate the truth......

Hmmmm - aspiring filmmaker - love and tolerance -

That sounds like a perfect venue for actually doing something to challenge the mindset of those who adhere to the violent, manipulative and expansionist elements of Islam.

Real reform ... That would be a fine life's ambition and work.

~JehanZeb~ make us proud!

JehanZeb:It would be nice if all the muslims think like you,the world would be a very nice place to live,but sadly there are MANY muslims (*), no a small minority as you said, that they interpret koran LITERALLY and because of that the world is in deep troubles.And about how the muslims respect their wives and sisters instead of believe in you I believe in Ayaan Ali Hirsi
who barely survived that respectfully treatment

(*)25% of 1.2 billon please do the math

Give us that ol time religion of peace and pass the shrapnel...

http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D21262807

JehanZeb,

Could you please share your response, as a muslim, to your fellow muslims who believe and say things such as:

"Leader (in Arabic): With our blood and our lives we will liberate al Aqsa!
[The rest also respond in Arabic:] With our blood and our lives we will liberate al Aqsa!
Israeli Zionists What do you say? The real Holocaust is on its way
Takbeer!
Response: Allahu Akbar!
Takbeer!
Response: Allahu Akbar!

Israeli Zionists, What do you say?
How many women have you raped today?
Israeli Zionists, What do you say?
How many children have you killed today?

Zionists, Zionists You will pay! The Wrath of Allah is on its way!
Israeli Zionists You shall pay! The Wrath of Allah is on its way!
The mushroom cloud is on its way! The real Holocaust is on its way!

We are not your average Muslims, We are the Muslims of Was al Sunnah

We will not accept the United Nations, they are the criminals themselves
They get paid by the Israeli and the US government to do their job.
We don’t recognize United Nations as a body
We only recognize Allah

Israel won’t last long… Indeed, Allah will repeat the Holocaust right on the soil of Israel
Takbeer!
Response: Allahu Akbar!

* * *
No wonder they call you sons of apes and pigs because that’s what you are.

We know many government services are watching us
Such as the FBI…CIA…Mossad, Homeland Security…
We know we are getting on their nerves
And so are you….
So we say the hell with you!
May the FBI burn in Hell
CIA burn in Hell
Mossad burn in Hell
Homeland Security burn in hell!!

Islam will dominate the world
Islam is the only solution
Islam will dominate the world
Islam is the only solution
Takbeer!
La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur Rasool Allah

* * *
Another mushroom cloud, right in the midst of Israel!
Takbeer!! Allahu Akbar!"

from: http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005049.htm?print=1

feel the love! eh?

Come to think of it, as occupant points out just above, if you really are an aspiring muslim film-maker, an honest documentary of the "islamic thinkers society" would make a fine project.

Thank you, in advance, for your kind attention to my request.

Geesh. If this rant is typical of an educated moderate muslim then yes, I agree with Robert's comment that "And you are contributing to that climate of suspicion far more effectively than I ever could".

His email is so full of lies and taqiyya that the last shred of respect I had for the "moderate muslim" just disappeared. I have nothing but pity left for these brainwashed foes of civilization.

Hey JehanZeb, you want to know why there were no muslims in the show Star Trek? Because you and your ilk don't exist in the future.

Quote from JahanZeb:
"Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. ... God created a mate for everyone, in the same way Eve was created for Adam... Why would someone abuse his/her twin half? Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself. ... MANY Muslim men and women respect and Love each other in a very special way. I don't know any Muslim who abuses their wife or who would even THINK to do such an awful thing."

Oh yeah, every woman wants to be made love to by a Muslim man. Here's a description by Hirsi Ali in her book "Infidel" about a Somali friend who had come to Nairobi to marry one of her cousin's employees:

'Jawahir was tiny but exuberant, all airs and graces; she rolled her eyes and flounced her arms around...She inflected everything with so much drama...she was illiterate--but she was really amusing.

A whole group of us met for long, giggly girls' conversations in the afternoons...The talk centered on Jawahir's impending marriage and the various prospects for other people's marriages. And of course we talked about circumcision. All these girls knew they would be married soon; it was inevitable that we talk about excisions. This was what we had been sewn up for.

The talk was mostly boasting. All the girls said how tightly closed they were; this made them even more pure, doubly virginal. Jawahir was particularly proud of her circumcision. She used to say, "See the palm of your hand? I am like that. Flat. Closed."

One afternoon, gossiping about another girl, Jawahir said, "If you're walking past the toilet when she's in there, you can hear that she isn't a virgin. She doesn't drip. She pees loudly, like a man."

Jawahir's wedding took place at Farah Goure's house...We danced together to a woman drummer...We had a huge meal and in the evening little Jawahir appeared, in a white, Western dress, with her hair piled up in a beehive. She was enjoying the attention: she loved to perform.

For a week after the wedding Ma wouldn't let me go to see Jawahir: she said it wouldn't be proper. So it wasn't until the weekend that I visited her. Jawahir sat on the sofa, gingerly shifting her weight from one side of her bottom to the other. Finally I asked her what it had been like, having sex.

She evaded the question. I was holding one of Halwa's Harlequin paperbacks and she grabbed it and asked, "What is this filthy book you're reading?" I said, "Come on, you know all about it now, tell me what it's like." Jawahir said, "Not until you read this book to me."

It was a mild enough book, about a man, a woman, a doomed romance, two sexy bits. But when the man and woman kissed, he put his hand on the woman's breast, and he then put his mouth to her nipple. Jawahir was horrified. "These Christians are filthy!" she squeaked. "This is forbidden! For Muslims it's not like that at all!"

Now Jawahir really had to tell me what sex was like. She said it was awful. After the wedding ceremony, they went into the bedroom of the flat that Ali had rented for them. Ali turned off the lights. Jawahir lay down on the bed, fully dressed. He groped under her dress, opened her legs, took off her underpants, and tried to push his penis inside her. He didn't cut her with a knife, just with his penis. It took a long time, and hurt. This resembled the stories that Sahra had told me.

Every night it was almost as painful, and always the same: Ali would push inside, move up and down inside her, then ejaculate. That was it. Then he would stand up and take a shower to purify himself: she would get up and shower, also to purify herself, and apply Dettol to the parts that were bleeding. That was Jawahir's sex life.'

Of Hirsi Ali's own wedding night she says:

'I said, "What do you want me to do".

"Take off your clothes, of course."

So I did, awkwardly, woodenly. Nothing was happening as I had dreamed. I made an attempt at foreplay, like I'd read about in books, and Mahmud looked at me quizzically: "Hey, have you done this before?" he asked me.

I mumbled no, and let him get on with it. If I had lied and told Mahmud I had sexual experience, then perhaps we would have had foreplay; but then of course, he would probably have divorced me. Because I admitted to being a virgin, there was no pleasure at all. Jawahir, Sahra, and all the other girls were right, I thought. Good girls are virgins who feel nothing at all.

It wasn't rape. I wanted to have sex with Mahmud--just not this way. He gasped and shoved and sweated with the effort of forcing open my scar. It was horribly painful and took so long. I gritted my teeth and endured the pain until I became numb. Afterward Mahmud fell heavily asleep, and I went and washed again. In every respect my wedding night had turned out exactly as Jawahir had described hers, a year before in Kenya.

Very early the next morning, Mahmud drove me back to Ibado Dhadey's house. He was leaving for Russia that afternoon; I wouldn't see him again."

So much for, "Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover." Being a better lover requires one to consider the feelings of the other person, being interested in their pleasure and also their well being. Ramming an incision open, that shouldn't have been there in the first place, qualifies for none of the above.

I find it interesting that Jehan finds it necessary to offer post-Qur'anic texts (no ahadith, either), from a mystic author centuries after Muhammad to try and sell us on "love."

There is no 1 John 4:8 ("Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love") in the Qur'an. Nor a 1 Corinthians 13:4-13 ("Love is patient..."), and so on.

And, I think it is quite arguable that the prioritization of that sort of discourse in the respective books of scripture has had far-reaching consequences on the cultures that resulted.

Mr. JehanZeb,

You wrote above:

"I think it's unfair of you to judge me and say that I do nothing for my people."

Mr. Spencer did not suggest you are doing nothing for your people. He said that by not answering his specific assertions and instead focusing on his methods and motives of presentation you are contributing to the cloud of suspicion towards Muslims. You accuse him of judging you, when the entire point of your first letter was to judge him: hateful, negative, prejudiced, intolerant, ignorant, insulting, immature.

You characterize Mr. Spencer in the negative and never give one example. You claim to be instructing him on peace, tolerance, and love. Does one attain any of those by accusing another of negativity without ever offering an instance of the negativity? In the absence of any cited examples, are we to infer that the entirety of Mr. Spencer's efforts are covered by your accusations? In other words, without giving examples of what you accuse Mr. Spencer of, how is he to be "instructed"? It would seem that you are less interested in instructing Mr. Spencer than airing your emotions.

You also wrote:

"I don't have a problem with you citing the Qur'an, I have a problem with the way you are presenting it."

Again, you do not provide one single instance that could serve to help him, and us, better understand your contention with his presentation. It seems that Mr. Spencer's polemics cause you much consternation, crippling your ability to reconcile your anger and benevolent intent.

To be clear, Mr. Spencer does much more than merely cite the Qur'an and other Islamic texts. He engages in contrast and comparisons, reviews historical lineages of Islamic concepts, and uses other devices common to in depth research of any topic. This type of analysis is not unique to Mr. Spencer, most people who wish to have their work honestly studied or reviewed by others, employ these methods. This allows others to best answer or critique that research. That's what Mr. Spencer wants: others to honestly address the content of his work. You have not done this, and even admit so.

You have not offered a single direct rebuttal to the core of Mr. Spencer's thesis. Instead, you offer unsupported characterizations of him and his presentation, while informing him that this is instruction for peace, tolerance, and love. This is like somebody asking you for the time, and you reply that their necktie is not straight.

A reasonable person can only come to the conclusion that you are confused and angry, and venting at Mr. Spencer while telling him you love him. I hope you can reread what you have written, search your heart, and then use your mind to see that you are guilty of many of the things you accuse Mr.Spencer of.

I was struck by the complete failure of Jehanzeb to address the quotes taken from the Koran and the issue of Muslim violence.Instead he attacks Robert Spencer and then assumes the victim role.Unfortunately for Jehanzeb and other Taqiyya practitioners, violent Muslims like Osama Bin Laden have raised Islam's profile, so much so that people are looking closely at Islam. Today anyone with internet access can find out the truth about Islam and many infidels don't like what they see.People are finding out about Islam's violent past and present.People are also finding out how Christians, Jews and other religious minorities are treated in the Islamic world today.So that cries of victimhood and "Islamophobia" are falling of deaf ears.The reality is Muslims are treated much better in the West then Christians are treated in any Islamic country.

"Moderate Muslims" who attack people like Robert Spencer and seek to educate infidels. Rather then attacking people like Osama Bin Laden and educating violent jihadis show their true colors.It's the Jihadis not Robert who are the reason there is more and more so-called "Islamophobia". Stopping the violence and hatred being spread by Muslims worldwide in the name of Islam is the first step in rehabilitating Islam tattered image.When Muslims take to the streets with the same fury against Osama Bin Laden that they exhibit against Pope Benedict then maybe they'll be taken seriously.Infidels in 2007 are are much harder to fool then those in 2000 so that Golden oldies like "Islam is a religion of peace" are laughed at today.

Mr. Spencer, T - H - A - N - K ___Y - O - U !

JehanZeb asks with as much credence as he can muster,

"Don't you feel ashamed of yourself at all for being so negative and prejudice?"

Ahem, after you, kiddo. When JehanZeb begins to seriously question the negative and prejudicial portrayal of 'the other', aka infidel/non-believer/kafir clearly outlined in islam's 'holy texts' , then he'll earn some credibility.

Just remember that peace, tolerance, and Love is being taught to you RIGHT NOW by a Muslim.

Caroline asks

" Should we be "feeling the love" after reading that?

Talk about Chutzpah!

rookie responds :

Is he really saying "We only blow you up,behead you, want to keep you in perpetual slavery, subservient to Islam" because we love and respect you?

Yeah, like the peace of the sword, tolerance of kafir, and love of . . .exactly who? where? what? when? do tell! From the "bridge for sale" digest . . .

Interesting discussion within the comments . . . .
****

Anyone...Is there any mention of love in the Quran? Loving one's fellow man, the love of the Creator for his creation?Anywhere? Anyone?- jawa

The ethic of reciprocity is a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, the most obvious exception being islam. Also known as the "Golden Rule", it is fundamentally the basis for the concept of human rights. There is NO equivalent to the golden rule in islam.

******

It is amazing that these creatures never refute the claims by citing parts of the Quran.- Pelayo

Even if they did, it would only confuse because of all the condtradictions within the belief systems doctrine. It all boils down to the dualism within the doctrine.

. . .first principle is that Koran, Sira and Hadith must be taken as a whole. We call them the Islamic Trilogy to emphasize the unity of the texts. . . Our major intellectual breakthrough is to see that dualism is the foundation and key to understanding Islam. Everything about Islam comes in twos starting with its foundational declaration: (1) there is no god but Allah and (2) Mohammed is His prophet. Therefore, Islam is Allah (Koran) and the Sunna (words and deeds of Mohammed found in the Sira and Hadith). . ..first clue about the dualism is in the Koran, which is actually two books, the Koran of Mecca (early) and the Koran of Medina (later). The insight into the logic of the Koran comes from the large numbers of contradictions in it. On the surface, Islam resolves these contradictions by resorting to “abrogation”. This means that the verse written later supersedes the earlier verse. But in fact, since the Koran is considered by Muslims to be the perfect word of Allah, both verses are sacred and true. . .Both sides of the duality are right . . .The dualism of Islam is more deceitful and offers two choices on how to treat the unbeliever. The unbeliever can be treated nicely, in the same way a farmer treats his cattle well. So Islam can be “nice”, but in no case is the unbeliever a “brother” or a friend. In fact, there are some 14 verses of the Koran that are emphatic—a Muslim is never a friend to the unbeliever. A Muslim may be “friendly,” but he is never an actual friend. And the degree to which a Muslim is actually a true friend is the degree to which he is not a Muslim, but a hypocrite. . . there is no compromise with dualistic ethics. There is no halfway place between unitary ethics and dualistic ethics. . . .Islam does not assimilate, it dominates. There is never any “getting along” with Islam. Its demands never cease and the demands must be met on Islam’s terms: submission.

**********

The mandates to violence and oppression of unbelievers is rooted in the Koran and Muslim teachings.- Frank

&

I have no doubt most Muslims believe that Islam is goodness and peace because they experience the universal through its particulars, even though those particulars, back here on planet earth, are loaded with the worst type of aggression towards all in the way of Mohammud`s will to power.- toykyobk

JehanZeb: When you come to Jihadwatch you should come to address those issues that are most disconserting, and are written into the Quran that give us infidels the greatest of concerns and are clearly being practiced by a large part of the Islamic community throughout the world. - Mackie

Folks like JehanZeb may appear to have good intentions, but a superficial review of any aspect of this belief system reveals far more than he can handle.

"Husband, beat your wives and deny them sex." (The book of Islam, Koran 4:34)

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her." (The Holy Bible, Ephesians 5:25)

JehanZeb: "it hurts and disturbs me that you make a living off of criticizing and vilifying my beautiful and peaceful way of Life."

Why are you in the US? I am asking a serious question....why do you want to live among kufr?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm

Hate Speech?

(Not According to CAIR)

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…”

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”

“How perverse are Muslims!”

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you”

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”

What JehanZeb and others like him refuse to understand is that those who 'are not true Muslims' those who are causing so much ill will among westerners like Spencer, need to be fought by the 'true' Muslims, by the so-called apostate, moderate Muslims.

You must do this BEFORE you can complain about Islamophobia.

Get rid of those who create Islamophobia, not those who fear the 'bad' beheading Muslims (who the moderates say have hijacked Islam).

Get your religion back before you criticize us for being Islamophobes.

It is called REFORM.

Then, after you have isolated the 'nutcases', after you have a religion we can live alongside, that we can trust, come back and we will talk.

Some Muslim Wrote:

"Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings. Islam teaches us to journey outside of ourselves and help people who are in need."

Look, you lying sack of 'al taqiyya', the whole world is rapidly learning the truth about your 'religion'.

Your life is a lie.

Hate begets Hate.

Convert, Submit, or Die.

"Islam teaches us to journey outside of ourselves and help people who are in need."

Is that so........is that where sudden explosive disorder comes from?

Christians: Thou shalt not kill

Jews: Thou shalt not murder

Muhammedans:

'Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them-
kill your mother & father, kill your brothers and sisters or anyone who insults the profit of Islam, or anyone who leaves his Islamic religion...'

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

I can feel the love already. Keep flying, Jonathan seagull!

"Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. It teaches us the concept of Soul Mates and the Truth of it. God created a mate for everyone, in the same way Eve was created for Adam, peace be upon them. Why would someone abuse his/her twin half? Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself."

-from post above

Actually, since muslim men marry four wives, and unlimited concubines, and Allah creates men and women at a ratio of 1 to 1, at best only 1 in 4 muslim men get a woman "soulmate" created for them by allah, the other get a soulmate that's a man, a goat, or they rape a non-muslim woman (very romantic, profound and spiritually advanced!) And since a muslim man gets four wives, he at best actually is his wives twin "1/5th", while they are his twin "4/5th", (if you consider his concubines just his sexual toys and don't include them at all in the soulmate/twin half equation, if you consider them soulmates, his fraction in the soulmate equation is even less). God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and 4 Eves!

The guy is taking the soulmate/twin concept which CLEARLY originated in a monogamous culture like the western, and is completely foreign to and incompatible with Islamic culture and thought, and not only falsely claiming to adhere to it, but actually absurdly taking credit for it. If the muslims really believe in this, why don't they practice it? Why do they have 4 wives and unlimited concubines and divorce, guess it's realy hard to find that soulmate, huh?

Next thing, he'll be trying to tell us it was really the Muslims who invented movie cameras, film, and build the film industry in the US.

I find the fact that he gets pulled over many times by police officers very encouraging. The law enforcement guys on the street aren't idiots like Mineta. And somehow I have a feeling his chances of getting a job in Hollywood aren't that good. Thank God for the right to bear arms!

Matthew 4:8-9

Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he told him, "All these I will give you, if you fall down and worship me."

Looks like Satan had a Plan B.

JehanZeb,

"There is not ONE single Muslim in my family who abused his wife, mother, sister, daughter, or any other female member, and believe me when I say my family is HUGE! In fact, in some situations, women rule over the men, lol. I am still a student, but I still address important issues that concern Muslims AND non-Muslims. There is only a small minority of us who are taking the Qur'an out of context. I find myself having to defend Islam more than educating fellow Muslims. I really wish you knew my family and my Muslim friends, they would really shatter the generalizations you have developed. Islam teaches us True Love, it teaches us (as the Prophet said) that men and women are twin halves of each other. It teaches us the concept of Soul Mates and the Truth of it. God created a mate for everyone, in the same way Eve was created for Adam, peace be upon them. Why would someone abuse his/her twin half? Being a Muslim makes me a better Romantic and Lover, it teaches me to respect women as well as respecting myself. The Love I speak of is one that cannot be expressed in mere words because my experiences go beyond that, but I believe it's important for everyone to understand that MANY Muslim men and women respect and Love each other in a very special way. I don't know any Muslim who abuses their wife or who would even THINK to do such an awful thing. They fall in Love with each other without touching before marriage, without seeing the woman's hair, because they see Beauty WITHIN. External beauty is temporary but inner Beauty is Eternal."

If what you said above is true, why in the Koran 4:34 it is said that a husband is ALLOWED to beat their wives?

Thank You "ovidius naso" and "Kay." I already ordered the Darwish book from Amazon, and ovid I will look for the Elizabeth George book when next in Barnes & Noble. May I suggest that you read Oriana Fallaci's books which are magnificent.

The excerpts from Hirsi Ali's book are horrifying. "Ramming into an incision that never should have been there." I don't think there have been many truer sentences written than that one.

Of course the cowardly Muslim interlocutor of RS's has fled the scene as he sees we're all on to him.

Jehan Zeb (JZ) does the usual apologist routine--breathes fire-and brimstone against non-Muslims while telling us how wonderful, tolerant and peaceful he is.

(JZ) “Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters.”

That’s what Jehan Zeb tells us non-Muslims in public. Here are more reliable indications of what he actually believes:

Koran, 98:6. “Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.”

Koran, 60:4. “Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrahim (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allah Alone," except the saying of Ibrahim (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allah) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allah ." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return,”

That's a good indication of what he really thinks of his “Abrahamic” brothers and sisters. Here’s what he believes about some other non-Muslims, but he won’t tell you it publicly:

Koran, 9:28. “O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.”

(JZ) “Do you want your children to be just as hateful and ignorant as you? Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings.”

If you cared about Non-Muslims' feelings you would reject the Koran because it is predominantly a book of hate, and then you would adopt a belief system without all that negative baggage. You won’t do it.

(JZ) “Yours are filled with lies and deception.”

You have not one shred of evidence to support this accusation.

(JZ) “How are you making the world a better place?? You're making it worse.”

Robert is helping in a big way to help people resist the jihad and sharia. For that he deserves our thanks. We are also thank him for his bravery, because by exposing the problems in Islam, some Muslims want to kill him, and many others want to smear his name.

(JZ) “Because of people like you, I have to worry about my children being picked on just because of their ethnicity and religious background.”

Because of irresponsible people like you who hide the problems in Islam and lie to the public about it, we have to worry about our kids not only being lied to about Islam but also being slaughtered, tortured, beheaded, ambushed, slandered, raped, subjugated, etc.

You don't like criticism of Islam, JZ? Tough; either defend it or if you can't then leave it.

Mr. JehanZeb says: "I CARE about other people's feelings. Islam teaches us to journey outside of ourselves and help people who are in need."

If so, then perhaps Mr. JehanZeb would care about my feelings as a non-Muslim. I read the Quran, from beginning to end. I read it several times. And each time, I got the same feeling: This is a death threat aimed directly at people like me: Non-Muslims who have absolutely no intention of accepting second-class status in a society in which Muslims are dominant.

And it is also a direct refutation of the principles enunciated in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, that all are created equal and all are entitled by our Creator to an equal chance at life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I did not feel inspired by the Quran.
I was deeply disturbed by it.

And those are my feelings.

And if Mr. JehanZeb wishes to discuss it, I can tell him exactly what suras and verses in the Quran made me feel that way.

"Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters."

JehanZeb,

If Robert is demonizing his Abrahamic brothers and sisters, as a Christian, he should be ashamed of himself, since Christianity commands that he should love all peoples regardless of who or what they are. Problem is you're confusing "demonizing" with "truth". If he lied and said that Islam was a peaceful and tolerant religion, you would call it "truth", but that would make both you and him liers.

In the topsy-turvy world of Islamic theology, you are expected to feel ashamed if you don't hate, persecute and even murder people of other faiths.

If you tried out your touchy-feeley interpretation of Islamic theology in a Muslim society, chances are you'd be labeled an "apostate" and it would cost you your life.

Darcy,

I would also recommend reading The Haj by Leon Uris.The book is a 20 year old novel that gives insight into the violent tribal world of Arabic Islam.The book also shows the debased condition of women in the Middle East. Reading this book explains much of the violence and hate that has spilled out of the Middle East into the rest of the world. The roots of the hatred and violence can be traced to directly to Islam.

I reject this 'Abrahamic' nonsense altogether.

Mohammed has no proven relationship with Abraham, Moses, David or any other Jewish prophet. There are no 3 'Abrahmic religions'- there are only 2.

It is pure invention. It is all based on Muhammed's false claim, just like 'the Koran is the word of Allah because the Koran sez so...'

But I would appreciate if Hugh or Robert would eleborate on that so we can substantiate our rebuttals better when Mohammedans make such claims.

Uh oh - my 3rd new book today! Thank You, Roxane, I will also look for "The Haj" on my next visit to Barnes & Noble and I'm going to have to buy another pair of eyes, too! But, I certainly have a great Book List right now, don't I?!

Here's what I'm currently reading: "The Hidden Face of Eve: Women in the Arab World" by Nawal El Saadawi (Egyptian female Muslim). I found it in the Women's Studies section of Barnes & Noble. It's from 1980 with it's 13th printing (!) in 2002. Recommended.

"""I reject this 'Abrahamic' nonsense altogether.

Mohammed has no proven relationship with Abraham, Moses, David or any other Jewish prophet. There are no 3 'Abrahmic religions'- there are only 2.

By sheik yer'mami"""

They say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...."

Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? Impossible! Not ONE follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols.

Islam knows and history tells us that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, there is NO mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could there be Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?

The only people who journeyed to the Ka'aba and kissed the Black Stone were PAGAN Arabs who worshiped one or more of the idols within and around it.

Muhammad started a NEW religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region HAD to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way anyone can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.

Abraham was NOT connected to Islam. Muhammad started a false religion out of his limited knowledge of Judiasm and Christianity - some 800 years AFTER Jesus Christ.

Darcy

You're welcome. When you do get Elizabeth George's book, notice how she constantly refuses to cast her British Pakistani characters as victims. They are full participants in their own culture, full moral agents who derive benefits from the misery they endure and, in turn, perpetrate on their own and others.

Steven L said:
"I did not feel inspired by the Quran.
I was deeply disturbed by it.

And those are my feelings.

And if Mr. JehanZeb wishes to discuss it, I can tell him exactly what suras and verses in the Quran made me feel that way."

that's exactly what any rational human being must feel after reading that book,And I also can tell what parts of that book make me feel upset about the Koran

What kind of film is this guy "aspiring" to make? Let me guess.

champ-

The more I read this "letter" I get the feeling its something written by a committee. There is something not kosher here.

"Film director."
Posted by: Hugh

Hugh, lad, that's the most eloquent ye've been since I first laid eyes on this site. Volumes ye spoke in two words. Ye'll have me believin' that you too have kissed the Stone.

Definations

Muslim extremist- Actively carry out Allahs word.

Moderate Muslim- Preaches to other Muslims to follow Allahs word.

Good Muslim- Confused as to what to do.

Peaceful Muslim- Dead.

Notice he has no ability to refute Robert's interpretation of the Quran. Typical response filled with bluster and no substance.

Until moderate Muslims come up with a cogent response to the "fundamentalists" this war will continue.

Frank --

You're right, there seems to be more than one person generating this letter, I see what you mean.

I find it interesting that he's blaming Robert for why he can't go anywhere without being PEGGED A TERRORIST.

After 9/11 people wanted answers, and Robert is one of the few BRAVE enough to give them.

Thank you Robert!!

My heart only goes out to the people in the Trade Towers and especially the Airline passengers & Staff ! I will never forgive the organization that danced and celebrated the deaths of so many innocent lives....not ever !

I confess to not having read each and every comment posted on this topic as carefully as perhaps is necessary in order to note that during the discourse between Spencer and the young Muslim, no one noticed that the young man charged Spencer with ignorance. Ignorance? Perhaps it is he, that is, the young man, who is ignorant aobut his own faith.

Champ and Frank . . .the letter may be by committee but it appears that there may indeed be a real 24-25 yr. old by that name from Jamaica NY. Zaba Search the name.

"Ignorance? Perhaps it is he, that is, the young man, who is ignorant about his own faith."

Kafir nonbeliever,

It's probably because he hasn't read the Qu'ran in Arabic yet, and of course, unless we have, we cannot possibly begin to understand the intricacies of his holy book and therefore, we have no right to talk about it. And we should not be worried about anything because JehanZeb wishes us peace and love and everything else as seen through his ludicrously opaque, rose colored glasses. And besides, there are no problems in the world.

Guys and girls!

Chillout!
I think we have overwhelmed this farcical poster. They have to understand that innocent messages of 'love' from Rumi will not blind us to Islam's violent and dominating core. In short, people like JehanZeb are trolls. Safely ignored. It IS a deeply psychological thing. Cognitive dissonance of such a scale is hard to fathom.

Wow, it seems a lot can happen when one steps away from the computer a day! A lot of you have been calling me a "sneak away", but with all due respect, I don't sit in front of my computer all the time! I'm sure we all know that people have jobs and other things going on in their lives.

lol, I assure you that I am ONE person, but it is flattering to know that I am being perceived as a committee. My intentions were to encourage a mature dialogue but that doesn't seem to be happening here. I'm greatly disturbed at how many of you are insulting and vilifying me. Someone even mentioned that the entire religion of Islam offends Christians!

Cheese Burger said:

"Your life is a lie. Hate begets Hate. Convert, Submit, or Die."

If you're that tough to say something like that on the internet, why don't you come and kill me yourself? What stops you from killing a Muslim on the street?

Darcy exposes her hatred by criticizing Muslim men and by making generalizations about Muslim women. Let me remind you that Muslim women were liberated among the pagan Arabs. The Qur'an says that men and women are equal, and I find it very ignorant of Darcy to make such a statement because she doesn't know me, never met me, and has no idea how I or my Muslim friends and relatives treat women.

Darcy, I challenge you to PERSONALLY MEET a Muslim woman and ASK HER about why she covers. Do you know that the majority of Muslim converts are women? Why do they convert? To be oppressed?? Read up your facts.

It seems that all of you are seeing things that are not there in my comments. You want to see hate and intolerance, you want to see a demon, you want to see a terrorist, but I put my faith in God because He knows who I am.

To tell me to go back to my country is like telling all the white Americans to go back to Europe and give this land back to the Native Americans. I believe I am in America for a reason, it is a country founded on peace, tolerance, and religious freedom - something all of you seriously need to learn from - and just because I say Islam is HERE to stay does NOT mean I'm making a threat. I am speaking the Truth and I am speaking out compassionately because Muslims are your neighbors, they are your brothers/sisters, and they are your friends. One day you will learn that because Truth and Love always prevails in the end.

Everyone should notice that I have not said anything condemning or prejudice about Christianity or any other religion. Islam is a beautiful and Loving way of life, and Muslims are truly wonderful human beings just like the rest of you. God Loves everyone, he cares for you, he cares about the well-being of your soul and just because you believe in another pathway to him doesn't mean that you have to hate others.

When you say that I should preach this message of peace and tolerance to my Muslim brothers and sisters - how do you know that I don't? On this particular site, I am defending Islam because I feel that the public is misinformed about it. Instead of telling me to tell others this message, why don't you try educating YOURSELVES about peace and tolerance FIRST?

By the way Darcy, is your self-esteem boosted after insulting me and Islam? Keep insulting me if it helps you feel better.

And with all due respect, Jesus - peace be upon him - also used flower power... he was also a rag-head. Like me :P

Peace

~JehanZeb~

And after all the comments have been made it is still the actions of Muslims that will speak louder than all the words, and we have seen these actions way to many times day after day and year after year.

No longer can you try to deceive us (taquiya),no longer can you try to tell us half truths(kitman) for we are on to you more and more every day-- Americans will not allow another Eurabia to occur here.

If you are a victim of Islamophopia-- guess what? ---TOO BAD!!!

I am not trying to deceiving you, Mackie, that is what YOU'RE saying.

I speak from my heart.

Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters. I think there's still a lot you need to learn about being a human being. I'm only 23 years old, yet I have learned in life that not all adults are mature and grown up. From the quality of your work, it shows that you don't care about compassion or peace, but separation and war.
Posted by aspiring filmmaker

Where to start? First of all, Mr. Spencer does not promulgate hate unless quoting the Qur'an is considered hatemongering. In my humble opinion, the Qur'an is the vilest and most profane "holy" book ever written but Mr. Spencer didn't write it, he only quotes suras and discusses its blessed doctrine.

Muslims are not our "Abrahamic" brothers and sisters. Islam appropriated the Jewish prophets and islam relegated God Almighty to the rank of minor prophet; allah is not the Jewish or Christian God. Mr. Spencer has never demonized muslims, he simply presents the facts as they exist. Truth is often painful, especially to those who exist in a world of self-delusion and denial.

You made mention of the "quality" of Mr. Spencer's work, and then suggested that his work showed that he does not care about compassion and peace, but separation and war. This statement is so vague that it is meaningless, and suggests that you might really be 23 years old. In case you weren't aware, Mr. Spencer is the author of several best-selling books on the most misunderstood topic in today's screwed up world---islam. He has enlightened many people by helping them understand this bizarre religion that is unlike any other, and I am quite certain that he is "mature and entirely grown-up." You, however, are not.

Muslims never grow up and become intellectually or emotionally mature. Know why? Because islam does not allow individualism, free thought, skeptical inquiry, creativity, spontaneity, a few taboos that prevent normal development of the psyche. Fatalism, fear, sexual repression, mindless repetition and ritual keep the muslim mind forever infantile, and uncontrolled anger, imagined victimhood, savage violence, resentment, are a few of the fruits of islamic indoctrination and immaturity. Comparing you to Mr. Spencer, you're angry, resentful, "victimized"; he's cool, collected, rational, and as always, impeccably honest. Don't you envy him?

Disagreement is not hatred. Common sense is not hatred. Protecting our values, culture, religious beliefs is not hatred.

I'm sorry that you are a victim of profiling. But I'm more sorry that organizations who claim to speak for you lie to the public about what they believe, as Muslims, and what you do to others, as Muslims. If you lie down with dogs you'll wake up with fleas. Reject your religion's contempt for non-believers and it's promotion of murder to achieve it's aims and then we'll talk.

JehanZeb

Your posts are nauseating.

You were asked politely to comment on 4:34 of the Qur'an by four different posters, not to mention Robert's own challenge on that verse alone. And what about mention Islam's astoundingly explicit death penalty for apostasy based on Muhammad's own words (Bukhari 9.84.57, 4.52.260)? And Islam's clear dictate that non-Muslims can choose only conversion, subservience, or war--never equality (Sahih Muslim 19.4294)?

Yet rather than address any of these points, you simply drone on about how "Islam is a beautiful and Loving way of life."

If you are so peaceful and tolerant and loving, why won't you come out and say explicitly that you reject Qur'an 4.34, that you reject Bukhari 9.84.57, that you reject Sahih Muslim 19.4294, that you do not believe Muhammad's example is worth following, that you do not believe the Qur'an is the eternal word of God--and start working on convincing your fellow Muslims to do the same.

Susanp,

To promote ignorance and antagonism towards Islam like Mr. Spencer is mature, but me standing up for my faith is immature?

No, I do not envy a man who vilifies Islam - a religion very dear to the hearts of billions of Muslims around the world.

I am not speaking out of anger, I am speaking out in compassion and many people would agree with me, except for those who are blinded by hate and intolerance.

In order to establish peace with one another, we need to establish inner peace first. This is something I believe all of you can accomplish, especially those of you who believe in God. And I am your Abrahamic brother, whether you believe it or not :)

~JehanZeb~

Kamala,

I DO believe the Qur'an is the Eternal Word of God and God is ALWAYS speaking to us. The Qur'an even says so. I do not and will never say that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not worth following.

I offer these links to you in regards to the verses:
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html

"The Earth and the sand are burning. Put your face on the burning sand and on the earth of the road, since all those who are wounded by Love must have the imprint on their face, and the scar must be seen. Let the scar of the heart be seen, for by their scars are known the men who are in the way of Love."
~ Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu alayhi wa salaam.

"The Truth is, you people don't want to see Beauty and Peace in Islam"

I'd love to see the "Beauty and Peace" in Islam. What a genuinely refreshing change it would make from the daily litany of beheadings, bombings, "honor" killings (which have absolutely zero to do with honor), acid flung in women's faces, rocket attacks, mass murders and other atrocities.

JehanZeb, while extolling Islam you neglect to give any reason why the overwhelmingly vast majority of all terrorist attacks in this world are committed by Muslims. Not Christians, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists but Muslims. I doubt that I'm the only one who regards your neglect to address this one glaring omission as a sign of dissimulation by you. Let's just say that it tends to taint your message and fails to impress. You may as well juggle flaming torches in front of an audience of burn victims.

What is your stance on Islam's need for reformation? Or is there even a need for it in your mind? As others have pointed out, why are you not going amongst your more radical coreligionists and pleading with them to abate their declared war of jihad upon the West so that we might gain a more tolerant view of your faith? Do you feel there is any need for ostensibly moderate Muslims like yourself to declare a jihad against those who twist and pervert your blessed religion with atrocities and mass murder? Please feel free to elaborate upon this matter.

Do you believe that we in the West must abandon our freedom of speech solely because your fellow Muslims find some relatively benign cartoons about Mohammed to be so offensive that people's lives were threatened over them? Please do not forget that it is this same right to free speech which allows you to post almost whatever you wish here in this Internet forum without fear of apprehension, unlike Abdolkarim Nabil Seliman in Egypt. Have you noticed how Mr. Spencer has not deleted any of your posts from this forum? What does that say to you about tolerance? What is your position on Abdolkarim Nabil Seliman’s arrest and his subsequent FOUR YEAR prison term for criticizing Islam?

If Islam is so focused upon peace and harmony between cultures, why is it that fabulously wealthy Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar don't put an end to the Palestinian - Israeli conflict by resettling all of the Palestinian people within their own national borders? Why do they, instead, continue to perpetuate the endless hatred and killing by financing terrorist attacks upon Israel?

Are you willing to deny that Saudi Arabia's government DOES NOT publish school textbooks that portray Jews as pigs and Americans as dogs and donkeys? How are we in the West supposed to interpret such acts save by assuming that an Islamic enemy has declared unending war upon us? Do you honestly think that we could be so utterly stupid as to believe your word against the daily acts of terrorist violence and carnage, all committed in the name of Allah?

"I'd love to see the "Beauty and Peace" in Islam."

Really?

Okay, here:

http://free-minds.org/

http://www.al-islam.org/

http://submission.org/

http://www.khamush.com/

http://www.niyazmusic.com/

http://www.persianart.co.uk/gallery_paintings5.htm

http://www.whyislam.org/877/

http://www.farshchianart.com/

http://www.azamalimusic.com/

http://www.vasmusic.com/

http://www.myspace.com/maghrebika

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/ (my blog)

p.s. Do any of you listen to Middle-Eastern music?

I will never bow my knee to allah.
He is the one who coveted the G-D of Israel's throne, and desired to be worshipped. The god allah requires blood and hates those who will not submit.
The G-d Of Israel is called "Abba, Father".
allah is never touchable or approachable, always just waiting to cast you to hell.
Mohammad got it right when he said he was possessed by a demon.

JehanZeb wrote:

I DO believe the Qur'an is the Eternal Word of God and God is ALWAYS speaking to us. The Qur'an even says so. I do not and will never say that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not worth following.

Well thank you for being honest. Now I know that killing someone who leaves Islam is part of your definition of "beauty." (Bukhari 9.84.57) And that fighting non-Muslims until they convert, pay the jizya in subservience, or die, is part of your definition of "beauty." (Qur'an 9.29)

Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

JehanZeb-
I looked at your first link. I don't feel too great about anything with "submission" in it. That aside, you have not answered one direct question yet. You are no different than any of the CAIR talking heads, or any other muslim being interviewed, dancing around these questions. All of the people here are asking you these things because they are looking for a credible answer, if there is one. Your non-response is an answer in itself.

JehanZeb,

Do you think it is a beautiful thing that your prophet Mohammad married Aisha when she was six years old and had sex with her when she was nine? Did he do this because they shared a mutual love and she desired him as he desired her? Would you recommend this in your own family? Would you be willing to let a man in his fifties marry your pre-pubescent daughter because Mohammad, as the perfect man, the one we should all emulate, did just that? What do you think about the Ayatollah Khomeini reducing the marriagable age for women to nine years old in Iran, in imitiation of your prophet's marriage to Aisha? Have you ever hear of this subject or read it in your Qu'ran?

And I am your Abrahamic brother, whether you believe it or not :)
~JehanZeb~

No, I'm sorry, you're not.

The appropriation of poorly rendered Jewish and Christian traditions does not make you my Abrahamic brother. Equally nauseating is your disingenuous claim to revering Jesus, when your "Isa" speaks almost nothing except to affirm Islam and attempt to refute the central tenets of what Jesus/Y'sua actually DID say.

Please. Show me a scrap or fragment of religious manuscript proven to be extant before Mohammed soiled the earth that confirms any part of the Qur'an (preferably in the "original" Classical Arabic). Ever notice how the myriad thousands of such instead affirm the Jewish and Christian traditions of their texts?

"Do any of you listen to Middle-Eastern music?"

I have listened to, publically performed and composed Middle Eastern music for flute and guitar for decades. I knew what an ooud was when I was all of 14 years-old.

You have failed to answer a single one of the many legitimate questions I posed. Do you not understand how that makes your own postings suspect of taqqiya?

If you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest that you show more respect for those who are attempting to engage you in honest dialogue. Rest assured that if you provided cogent replies to half the questions I have asked many here would pay much greater attention to what you have to say.

Here is a single and quite direct question:

Where do you stand on the Palestinian - Israeli conflict?

Feel free to answer just this one single question alone. It will speak volumes regarding your own actual attitude and truthfulness.

Zenster, this is where I stand:

(link to an entry i wrote once on my blog)

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!464.entry

For JehanZeb ...

This has been a long journey for me. My first Muslim friends were colleagues in 1982, a colloquim of writers, print designers, editors, and linguistics who gathered in California to write the ARAMCO ESL manual for the operation of Ras Tanura refinery and Sea Island terminal in Saudi Arabia. We were Iranian, Ethipian, Somali, Egyptian, Saudi, Lebanese, English, American, French, and Greek. Most were Muslims.

From this intelligent and remarkable group and from the tales of my father who served in World War II in Egypt and Indian my first impression of Islam was positive. Certainly the group of friends I have known for two decades gave me an impression that Muslims were a good lot.

Most of this group, hailing from so many places in the world, were refugees, fleeing violence, poverty, inter-Muslim hostility if not war, and restrictive social constructs that squelched genius, suppressed minorities and women, and possessed a lucite ceilling of class, racial, social, gender, political and religious sectarian threat.

In America they flowered. Until the day the Saudi royals arrived to check on their "project." Prior to their arrival, we women were told what to wear. Over the ankle, over the wrist, over the head. Muslims started asking for vacation. They were denied.

Then the "masters" arrived to find an office of Western Europeans and Americans. The phone rang all morning with Muslims calling in sick. The truth was they were afraid of these people. Not to be told what I would wear in my own country, I wore a violet beige wool suit cut mid-thigh and stiletto heels, lots of make-up, with my hair down and the best jewelry I had. Just go to hell, I thought.

The level of supremacity superiority in the Saudis was shocking and infuriating. How dare they come into my country, I thought, and tell anybody here what to do. And where are all the Muslims???????

Yet on balance, I still believed Islam was good, because the Muslims I knew personally were good people who treated me with respect. But the visit from the Saudis was a lesson I should have learned then.

The years and decades passed and my interest in the Middle East grew with hundreds of books and ongoing friendships. Then 9/11 happened. I was standing in an office, and when the 2nd plane hit the World Trade Center, I simply said, "That's Al Qaeda." And somebody said, "What's an Al Qaeda."

That night I went to the Middle Eastern market to see my friends. Most were in denial and angry that someone would say that Muslims did it. But not so my old friend Ibrahim, the Egyptian who had fled Gama'a al Islamiya in the south of Egypt. He was crying. He was crying, "Allah! Allah! Don't let them come here!" Someone asked me if I thought it was Muslims. I said yes. He said, "I spit on you."

My friend Rusia worked in the store there and was a delight. Within three months, she had been forced into cover to protect her husband. A Wahhabi imam had come to the mosque next to the store to tell the men to start controlling their women. If she didn't do it, she said, Al Qaeda would kill her husband. So she went into cover, and she despised it. And this happened in Orlando, Florida.

When the truth dawned on Muslims in America that Al Qaeda had attacked the country that had given them refuge, I stuck up for them. And I still do stick up for a moderate INTERPRETATION of Islam. But I have gone from being intensely supportive to be intensely angry.

When Abu Musab al-Zarqawi hit a Palestinian wedding in Amman, Jordan, the next day the Jordanian people were on the street in protest. When Al Qaeda tried to effect a chemical attack in Amman in 2003, Queen Rania hit the streets in blue jeans, hair flowing, to lead 80,000 Jordanian Muslims in protest. In Bangladesh every day Muslims write in to decry the debased violent of Islamic extremists. In Indonesia and Malaysia and even in the last months the Indonesian people have voted down an Islamist consitutional amendment which would have destroyed the Pancasila doctrine and asoon as the GAM were allowed to stand for office in Aceh province, the people threw the hand-severing, woman-beating, religious police and their imams out of office, electing a secular prime minister who could protect them from debased people using a religious exoneration for murder, rape, torture, and oppression of every kind.

And what did you guys in the United States do??? Absolutely nothing.

What do you do??? Every time we try track down the people who to light us up with C4 by a remote-denated switch, you whine, you trot CAIR out to scream "Discrimination!" and you will NOT fight to clear up the problems going in your own religion.

Do not sit here and tell us that Islam is a peaceful religion **per se**. It is not. There is a possibility of moderate interpretation, and I would agree that Hanafi fiqh does a fairly good job at that. But the disenfranchise, second-class standard of women is absolutely 100% distributed in the religion, even in its most moderate forms.

Everywhere on this planet Muslims are under from the most debase extreminists among them. In Nigeria, funded by the Saudis 100%, extreme shari'a has been declared in 19 provinces without a vote. In Zamfara it's hell on earth.

In Iran, the Baha'i are grievously persecuted by radical Khomeinists. Pakistan is in violation of every human rights statute with regard to women and children that exists on this planet. Women are stoned to death becuase women creep tribalist who says he's got ALLAH on his side raped her becuase her brother went out with his sister.

In Darfur, the NIF, spawned by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and funded 100% by the Saudis, has genocided two million DISSIDENT funj white shari'a Muslims and the native animist Nuba and every Christian they could find, displacing 5 million in the process.

And what do you do????? Do you get out there and fight for your religion??

No, you whine, you lie, you claim discrimination as a total racket, you send out supremacist groups like CAIR to bash any Muslim who gets out of the party line you want to spew about how victimized you supposedly are. You are not the victims here. You are the IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT CLEAN UP THEIR OWN RELIGION.

And what do you have to clean up. You have to eliminate the hadith which are mostly lies told after Muhammad died by politicians who wanted sexual and social and financial advantages.

And you have to relegate Medinan surahs to historical perspective only.

You have to take back Islam.

And if it sounds scary to you do this, get it, it is. The only Muslim I know fighting in Iraq is the son of the Ismaeli Saudi dissident Ali Alyami, who has more guts than you can imagine.

It's easier to claim that your so ever-so, ever-so, ever-so pathetically misunderstood, you poor, peaceful, powerless, gutless wonders.

Meanwhile, it's just fine for the Shi'a Muslims in Michigan, who lobbied the United STates to go war in Iraq for 25 years, to let American people die there, while their Shi'a kids go to nice, cushy American colleges and be smugly Islamically superior while they're at.

You don't like what's going on? YOu don't like the reputation your religion has?

Then, Buddy, you get your f'cuking ass over there and straighten this s'hit out.

Becuase this problem is with YOU GUYS who will not fight Al Qaeda. You will not fight the bad imams in Iran. And you won't fight them here.

And the few Muslims who stand up about -- Nonie Darwish, Walid Shoebat, Zudhi Jasser, and those like them -- get SMASHED BY CAIR.

So, in case you don't think we're paying attention, think again. We see what you guys do to Muslims who have the audacity to say that Al Qaeda is ruining Islam.

And why do blame us? Oh, well, after all, we're not Muslims and you are so superior (sarcasm) that it must be our fault. It's always that damned infidel, that eeeeeeeeeeevil one who is blame. Eternal, whining victimhood. And the rage that follows that says becuase you are SUPPOSEDLY so done wrong and becuase you have Allah on your side you can blow somebody up, rape some guys sister, kill your own if she has a life she assumes is hers because God gave it to her. Always exucing hostile, imbelic thinking or debased violence on the basis that it's somebody else's fault or God's will.

It's neither. It is gross irresponsibility that you sit around claiming that non-Muslims should "understand you." That we shouldn't "insult you" or "your religion."

Well, think again. I don't care if you're insulted. Because you won't clean up your religion my son's already been to war once, and if his 10th Mountain Div friends have their way, he'll be goin again, this time in much more danger than the first.

And it reminds of the first Gulf war when the spoiled Kuwaiti rich kids danced disco in the basement casbahs of Egypt while Americans handled their Kuwaitis little problem with Saddam.

And now you insufferable, whining supremacit creeps with your creep organizations screaming whining "discrimination" when they set up an airline with 6 of the 7 flags of a immenent terrorist attack.

You want to yell at somebody?? You go yell and the imams in the mosques in this country that preach hate, supremacy and war every f'ucking Friday, and you get your ass into the mountains of Waziristan and put YOUR LIFE on the line for your religion.

You go the ulema and tell them to get rid of the hadith and the War Verses and the Qur'anic verses that declare Jews pigs and Christians infidels. And you clean your act with women. So long as they have no rights to the children they bear, no control over the seuxality or their marriage or divorce and are disenfranchised in inheritance Islam is discriminatory religion toward HALF ITS POPULATION. Equality is not divisible. It's either there or it's not.

That's what I thought. You don't have the fucking guts for anything like that.

I have worked harder than any Muslim I have ever known to try to make peace. You have squandered five years of my life and you have broken my heart.

And now I am done with you. As far as I'm concerned every manipulation by CAIR should have a class action suit brought against it for malicious and frivolous litigation, for endangerment of hte public, and every bill for every dollar spent cleaning up its antics should be sent it, with a $5 million fine for every instances. It's how we bankrupted the KKK, and it's how we'll bankrupt CAIR.

Mosque speech calling for discrimination against other faiths and for violence against Americans should declared hate speech.

All immigration from countries whose mosques make war on my people should be stopped.

No more student visas for little Wahhabi ideology plants for Harvard or anywhere else.

No more foreign funding for US mosques. You raise it here, or you close. I don't care anymore.

I am so tired of your whining, your endless irresponsibility and your insane notion that we should we should you listen to you tell us that Islam is a religion of peace when your co-religionists are bombing, beheading, raping, torturing, and terrorizing the people of at least 60 countries around the world.

It is up to you to MAKE ISLAM a religion of peace, and you need to do that now, because you are very close to losing your chance. If there is a chemical, biological, or nuclear attack on a Western Europe country or on America, Australia, New Zealand or any of their possesions, it's going to be ALL SHE WROTE. It's going to be over. Things are going to change here in ways that will not be reversible for at least 100 years.

And you who sat here enjoying the fat of the land, whining, blaming, and feeling the sleaziest kind of religious superiority (as if loving God makes YOU superior ... it only makes GOD SUPERIOR .. .can you get that???).

And do you know why you complain to us rather than fix this problem?

Because you're cowards. It's easier to scream and us and tell US to fix the problem (like it's easier to tell us to die Iraq so you don't have to) ... because when you whine to us, we DO try to fix it. When you tell it to Al Qaeda, they cut your head off on international TV and then go find your sister and cut her breasts off and then burn her to death the streets.

So ... I have wasted five years trying to make peace. And now I am done with you. You can do it yourself.

You will get no more help from me.

I will see a 5,000,000 person Muslim march AGAINST TERRORISM on the Washington Mall or you get not one more ounce of energy from me.

And you guys wind up killing my son for your irresponsibility and debased violence, you're damned likely to find me in Afhganistan myself.

JehanZeb

I have read this whole thread and it is quite long.

My conclusion is that you are either;

1) Very ignorant of Islams teachings in the areas that we are very concerned about.

2) Actually speaking lies as Mohamad commanded to deceive us.
3) Or??

I also believe in the G-d of Abraham, and feel his presence in my life. He is about Love and forgivness. If you trully live like you say you do. Great! But you dont have to be Muslim to live, love and make this world a better place.

Below is the passage offered as an acceptable explanation to 4:34 of the quran by JehanZeb. To paraphrase, beating should only be a last resort, and it is only accepted by mohammed as long as its within the limits set by allah. Once again, islam shows its peacefulness by setting limits on the beatings.... so in other words, beat thy wife if nothing else works, and only if you really love her, but don't damage the goods. That's not violent.

Let us now proceed further with the verse and see what does it suggest in case of "those women on whose part you fear nushuz".(3) Three steps are recommended: "Admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them."

When there is no ill-will on the part of the wife towards the husband and he finds her behaviour hard to live with, he can, of course, divorce her. But marriage difficulties often start with a stage when neither partner really wants a break-up of the marriage and yet, at least from the point of view of one of the partners, the situation is unacceptable. The three steps suggested in the verse pertain to such circumstances.

"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. Once it is clear that it is not working it is to be abandoned in favour of some other steps involving relatives of the husband and the wife mentioned in the next verse (4:35). There is therefore, absolutely no license here for the type of regular and continual wife beating that goes on in some homes, where each time the husband is angry with his wife or with someone else he turns against her and beats her up. In most such cases, the husband has no moral superiority over the wife: the only rule of Shariah that he cares about is this suggestion about beating. He also does not have the kind of control over his sexual passions needed to separate the wife in bed and often beats her the day before or the day after making love to her, an action specifically condemned by the Prophet. (4)

In regard to the suggestion about beating, the following further points should also be noted:

a) According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say even that it should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

b) The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. The suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour on the part of the wife but neither he nor the wife is as yet seriously thinking of breaking up.

c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Quran and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her.

d) Some fuqaha (Muslim jurists) are of the opinion that beating is permissible but not advisable. They base their view on the fact that the Prophet intensely disliked the action. But to say that beating is only permissible but never advisable is to say that there is never any good in it but the husband can nevertheless resort to it if he wants to; in other words he can beat up his wife without any good reason. This, however, is a view that cannot possibly be attributed to the Book of God. We can expect the Holy Qur'an to mention beating only if there was some wisdom in that mention. Now there are two possible points of wisdom in the mention. First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Quran and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved. The wife may experience the depth of hurt and disturbance her nushuz is causing and if there is any love left among them may decide for that reason to change her conduct. It seems from observations of human behaviour know that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood (5) even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap, provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman. In the situation with which the present verse is dealing, it is understood that in his heart the husband does have some love and desire for the wife. For, he has the option of divorcing her but he is not taking that option. Of course, there are husbands who neither love their wives nor divorce them, but keep them to punish them or exploit them. But we are not dealing with this situation here, since the assumption is that ill-will (nushuz) is from the wife's side. As for the argument that the Prophet intensely disliked beating, we can say that his intense dislike was for the type of beating done outside the limits set down by God. Second, the mention of beating may have the wisdom, ironically, to protect wives against what is called wife battering. The Quran does not always combat undesirable behavior by legal prohibition but by some other means. Experience also shows that legal prohibition of an action may not always be the most effective method to stop it. The Quran by requiring that before any beating there should be admonishing and separation of beds is providing a more effective measure against wife battering, since battering is the result of uncontrollable anger or aggression and this anger or aggression can be tamed during admonishing and separation of beds. No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.

SonofIsaac,

You said, "But you don't have to be Muslim to live, Love and make this world a better place."

You're absolutely right! I hope I didn't give you the impression that one had to be Muslim to understand this. I believe we are all children of God and we can all appreciate one another for our differences.

Diversity enriches our world, and we all need to awaken to the Divine Truth that the majority of us intend to work together and establish peace and understanding in our world.

God be with You,

~JehanZeb~

Gotham,

Thanks for your explanation of a kinder, gentler way to beat your wife. I would humbly suggest that you be careful where you spread this idea.

A woman in the U.S. who was tired of being beaten by her husband waited until he came to bed very drunk one night and then sewed him inside his bed sheets. She then took a pair of pantyhose and put a potato in the bottom of one toe. She then proceeded to beat the ever living crap out of him. The next day there were no visible marks on his body as the potato was a mere vegetable and not conducive to leaving scars or bruises. Still, the husband never knew what hit him.

Remember, you have to go to sleep sometime.

Morgaan Sinclair,

Thank you for the above intense post.

JehanZeb,

As others have pointed out, your continued evasive taqiyya/kitman, da'wa, and dissembling, and non-answers to polite questions have discredited yourself, as well as your putative "moderate" position.

But here's another chance: As a muslim, how do you respond (or how have you responded), to your fellow muslims when they spout supremacist and hate filled messages, such as those typical of the so-called "islamic thinkers society", I linked above? Do you agree with them? If not, where are they mistaken in their claim to promoting true islam?

JehanZeb

From your fascination with Jehangir's tomb, I'm assuming that you are from Pakistan. If that's the case, maybe you could tell your ummah brothers to stop persecuting Pakistani Christians, since they are ostensibly your 'Abrahamic brothers', instead of lecturing us (a lot of whom aren't neither Christians nor Jews) about the Abrahamic brotherhood.

And your comments on Sharon - where your page seems to miss a scroll-bar - show your total ignorance, since Sharon was not the guy who massacred the Palestinian refugees. The person who did - Elie Hobeika - went on to become a client of Syria in Lebanon, and did their bidding until the end. Of course, that truth is too inconvinient for your propaganda points. Besides, why have there been rockets fired into Israel from Gaza since their withdrawal?

And quit selling us on the Sufis: Timur the Lame was a Sufi, the Chechens who did the Beslan school massacre and the Moscow theater massacre were Sufis, the Bosnian and Albanian Muslims who massacred Serbs are Sufis. The roots of Sufism are in the Quran, and just because they take some detours from Jihad, while never disowning it altogether, doesn't make it right. Also, quit selling us on poetry - a lot of the Jihadis were also accomplished poets in Farsi. Doesn't make them right.

JehanZeb --

You stated to Robert that you "object to how he presents Islam". Well, all I have to say to that comment is -- the Truth hurts.

Don't condemn the messenger -- condemn the messages written in the Koran instead. Get out of your denial and stop defending this manual to commit murder and mayhem.

I have ZERO interest in your religion, nor do I have any interest in hearing what anyone, like yourself, has to say who defends it; because every time I think about Mohammad and the kind of man he was, and the kind of life he lived, I want to throw up.

Mo was a murderer, and he had no business in calling himself a prophet; and you are the one who should be ashamed of himself for following such a murderous man -- AND -- for teaching your CHILDREN to follow such a man. Snap out of it!

First things first:

Morgaan Sinclair, I am new to this website so I do not have the background with respect to your previous interactions here. I do know that you are, at times if not even more often, less than well received and that I have responded in similar fashion in the not so distant past.

That said; I REALLY appreciate your last post. It shows that you have gone through the wringer regarding Islam and have emerged from it with enough scar tissue where there must be some degree of respect accorded for your experience. More than anything, it appears as though your dear child is overseas defending America from the Islamic threat. I will ask that you please extend my own personal and deepest thanks to him for his service to our country. If I refused to do so, I would have no right to take issue with you or even agree at this point. Take that to the bank.

Your reply to JehanZeb is absolutely SPOT ON! Thank you for clarifying your own stance to such a precise degree. It certainly provides some adjustment to my own opinion of your contributions here. Your own statement as to:

"It is up to you to MAKE ISLAM a religion of peace, and you need to do that now, because you are very close to losing your chance. If there is a chemical, biological, or nuclear attack on a Western Europe country or on America, Australia, New Zealand or any of their possesions, it's going to be ALL SHE WROTE. It's going to be over. Things are going to change here in ways that will not be reversible for at least 100 years."

is so closely aligned with my own estimation of what confronts Islam that I cannot help but be impressed with your own determination that this religion which you defend so fiercely had better clean up its act or face simple annihilation.

JehanZeb, please pay close attention. You are hearing the words of a supportive person coming from Morgaan Sinclair. If she is of such a skeptical nature regarding Islam's future, consider how little faith others might have.

Your own web link has, in its second sentence, reference to Sharon's complicity in the Sabra and Shatila massacres. Do you know that they were actually committed by Marionite Christians and not the Israelis, who were outside of the camps at that time?

Until you actually answer my own questions, I cannot possibly take you seriously.

Finally, please know that I also have independently created artwork that is directly attributable to the mathematical base twelve matrix used by Arabic artists. In addition, I also prepare hummus, falafel, lebni, sujuk, kebab, chello and numerous other superb renditions (I sit on a professional culinary institute's advisory board), of Arab cuisine. That is how thoroughly the Middle East's culture permeates my life. Please do not think that I will resist the demise of all Arab culture if it cannot forsake its obsession with overthrowing the West and Global Cultural Genocide. For that is what jihad is, the assurance that all other cultures on earth will perish. If you cannot bring yourself to oppose such a notion, please do not ask me for any sympathy.

Susanp,

To promote ignorance and antagonism towards Islam like Mr. Spencer is mature, but me standing up for my faith is immature?

No, I do not envy a man who vilifies Islam - a religion very dear to the hearts of billions of Muslims around the world.

I am not speaking out of anger, I am speaking out in compassion and many people would agree with me, except for those who are blinded by hate and intolerance.

In order to establish peace with one another, we need to establish inner peace first. This is something I believe all of you can accomplish, especially those of you who believe in God. And I am your Abrahamic brother, whether you believe it or not :)

~JehanZeb~

JehanZeb,
Please explain how Mr. Spencer "vilifies" islam. Since you are a muslim, I can empathize with your need to defend your faith. However, it is paradoxical indeed that you consider yourself to be the pratitioner of a "peaceful and loving" religion when islam is anything but "peaceful and loving." I cannot recall one mention of the word "love" in the qur'an. There are hundreds of references to hate, kill, smite, torture, and other types of cruelty, malevolence, and barbaric violence. Whether you want to admit it or not, the qur'an does not teach love and compassion for all of mankind, only for muslims. Non-muslims are to be despised and either killed or subjugated. How can you expect us to passively accept this doctrine with no qualms whatsoever? The doctrine of islam is antithetical not only to Judaism and Christianity, but to Western Civilization. We could pretend otherwise, but that would be suicide. So it's not that we are belligerent, bellicose, bigoted, or just plain ornery; we are concerned because we have been attacked and threatened by muslims who are merely following the tenets of islam. Read the articles posted here and you will understand our concerns. They are entirely legitimate.

Religion is subjective; some people wholly reject the idea that God exists and there are dozens of religions with many different perceptions of God. Religion is not a science and the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, so it is extremely arrogant and dangerous for one religion to declare itself unequivocally true by virtue of the same quality shared by all religions---faith. Yet that is what islam has done. Yes, all truly faithful people believe that their religion is the "real thing", but they do not seek to impose it forcibly on others; wage holy wars to spread it; kill apostates; enslave unbelievers; declare themselves superior to unbelievers; or seek to replace secular governments with theocracies. Hate and intolerance are not attributes we embrace; Americans are the most tolerant people in the world. However, it is insane and suicidal to tolerate the intolerant. I would suggest that you engage in a bit of introspection, starting with your own heart and then the heart of islam.

I must confess that I do not enjoy the serenity of "inner peace" with uninterrupted consistency. Although I was well acquainted with islam before 9-11, it wasn't something that I thought about every day or felt personally and imminently threatened by. I knew there were muslims in America but I seldom saw any, so I kept islam and its irreconcilable issues packed neatly away in the back of my mind, with an occasional pang of pity for the miserable plight of muslim females. And I have witnessed that miserable plight, up close and personal, in a predominately islamic country where the characters were real people and their lives were unadulterated hell. It was the most profound and disturbing experience of my life, revisited regularly in graphic, grotesque nightmares in which I am trying to run away, trying to scream, but I can't move or make a sound. The fear is horrible but the guilt is worse and it won't abate, no matter how many times I tell myself I was helpless to save them, and God knows I wanted to.

Hate does not come easily to us; sure, we get angry and resentful of the hundreds of thousands of muslim immigrants who have come to our country only to exploit its many opportunities while demeaning our culture, society, government and threatening our way of life. We know there are muslim terrorists here and we know we will be attacked again. Phony "interfaith" dialogue and politically correct platitudes won't deter the agenda of C.A.I.R. and its fellow travellers. We understand islam; I know that's the last thing the Wahabbi thugs and muslims in general ever wanted or expected, and they have worked like trojans to keep islam under wraps, but they failed. It's only going to get worse and cries of "bigotry", "racism", "islamophobia" will eventually fall on deaf ears. The truth always prevails, no matter how diligently it is obfuscated. If you practice a benevolent, pluralistic form of islam that has no imperialistic ambitions, you are an anomaly. I believe that God works in mysterious ways and He tests our faith, but I also believe that God helps those who help themselves. We will continue to help ourselves. Civilized discussions of the Qur'an and its contents should not pose a threat to you or any other muslim. If it does, something is very, very wrong with islam, but we already knew that.

Why oh why are we continuing to feed this troll I ask you! Has a single logical point gone thru to this seemingly well-intentioned troll? Why throw 150 comments to feed it when not a single straight reply will be received?

WE SHOULD STOP IT RIGHT AWAY!

Remember the LGF prayer!

"Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls, the courage to debate with honest opponents, and the wisdom to know the difference"

"WE SHOULD STOP IT RIGHT AWAY!"

By Jove, Holmes. I think you've got it!

What a great thread!

So much has been said, but just one observation:

Notice how even the initial letter to Robert is a straight grab for victim status: "We want to be nice; why are you nasty to us?".

If this were a westerner talking I would say in response: "Be a man!".

But this is clearly not a western mind talking. I wonder if it is a deep-seated cultural (Arab?) failing, or something they have just picked up recently from the leftist/PC/everyone-is-a-victim crowd?

Because it sure don't play well in the real world.

Robert, Hugh, And The Staff Of JW/DW:

I see we ended up having a very interesting thread. From one Christian believer to Robert, and starting with him I thank you for standing up to the truth.

Opps, I should have said Robert, in the above thread, "for the truth". Me bad.

"Someone even mentioned that the entire religion of Islam offends Christians!"

....Christians are not offended by Islam, they are persecuted by Islam. In all Muslim countries Islam has systematically eliminated all Christian churches, eliminated all rights of Christians and for the most part, killed off or chased off what few Christians remain...Look at the percentage of Christians in Muslim countries , say 50 years ago, compare that with the percentage of Christians in Muslim countries today...typically you might see 15% reduced to .05% or 12% reduced to 0. or 25% reduced to 1%. sounds like "ethnic cleasing" on a grand scale.

JZ notes: "Everyone should notice that I have not said anything condemning or prejudice about Christianity or any other religion."

...He has not said anything complimentary either about Christians....

JZ notes: "I am defending Islam because I feel that the public is misinformed about it."

....the public used to be misinformed, but Muslims actions across the globe have greatly informed people of Islams intent...The truth about Islam is no longer a secret.......

JZ notes: "And with all due respect, Jesus - peace be upon him - also used flower power... he was also a rag-head. Like me "

......Highly unlikely:..."with all due respect" Jesus was A Jew....do you love Jews?......

JZ is following the lessons taught by the Islamic clerics concerning lying to the Infidels, pacify the infidels,and slaying the infidels when they are unsuspecting or weak....

.....the actions of Islam across the world is awaking the infidels and is spurring them into action....

...Islam is doomed....

Hi, Zenster ...

Thanks for your post. I have a really long history here, and so my thoughts and feelings are pretty complex. I don't think it's easy to figure out where I'm coming from without seeing a whole lot of posts over a long period of time. I don't come down *exactly* where anybody else does about it, so I tend to get people angry at me from both sides. But, on balance, I think probably the guys at the Saudi embassy and CAIR hate me the most. But the Nuke Mecca Crowd come in a close second! But I think I make reasonable sense most of the time.

Thank you for your greetings and blessings to my son. I have passed them along and I'm sure I'll hear from him today how much appreciates it. It's odd, though, because often when I say such things he just says, "Mom, I'm just doing my duty. Hose it down!" They get a bit embarrassed, I think. I hope he doesn't go again. I already done eight years of this and it's pretty stressful.

Meanwhile, it's really sad that so many Muslims choose such a victimhood position -- entrenched by the actions of CAIR. They are failing the only Islam that can possibly exist in the future. They should be more realistic, even if they can't seem to come up with some basic integrity about it, and realize that all the world's Hindus, Christians, Jews, secularists, humanists, Buddhists, Jains, Taoists, Sikhs, and animists are going to get enough of their forcing them into shari'a -- WHICH SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED BY ANY NATION OR CULTURAL SUBGROUP ANY PLACE ON THIS PLANET -- by the kind of horrific, debased violence we are seeing in Thailand, Bangladesh, Iran, Saudi Arabia (by the muttawiyyah religious police), Morocco, Nigeria, Somlia, and more than 50 other countries where the normal citizenry is being attacked. A lot of this, I believe, has to do with being able to easily sell radicalism on the promise it will deliver a subjugated woman whose body, sexuality, and childbearing becomes the property of husband -- a woman who may be raped, beaten, and murdered with impunity.

This is, of course, not true of all Muslims, but they will not rise up and throw out the radical 10-15% for whom it is true. And those Muslims whose silence gives consent are no less responsibility for what the religion does when they not even protest for one afternoon the Islam that teaches kids young as 7 (see "Obsession") that God expects them to kill a Jew to get to Paradise.

THE SADDEST STORY I have heard in this is the Palestinian kid who was best friends with a Jewish kid. After hearing his imam say over and over again that any Muslim who didn't a Jew would burn in hell, this grammar school kid killed his Jewish playmate. Afterwards, he cried and cried that his friend was dead, that he killed his friend, but then he said he had to, because otherwise Allah would burn him forever.

On the theory that we all really worship the same God, that there is only one perhaps multi-faceted by paradoxically unitary supreme being, it's clear that it's not Allah or God or Brahman or the Tao that asks this. This a human, not divine, perversion -- it is the worst use of a loving energy employed to do the work of criminals and politicians from time immemorial.

So when good Muslims complain that Al Qaeda is "not practicing Islam" they have a point, because all true religion, of whatever sect or denomination can only really be said to be the tendency to try to follow the best example of love, peace, harmony, and morality that exists within the religion.

But the problem now is that Islam is giving tacit approval to its VERY WORST ELEMENTS -- and they are doing it out of ego, out of pride, out of liking to feel superior after the failure of many Islamic cultures, out of the lure of being able to control women, out of the promise that they can commit violent acts and get away with it scott free because they claim Allah is behind.

There has been a civil war for the definition and future of Islam for more than 100 years, and the vast majority of Muslims have failed that fight becuase of the shocking tendency to turn opportunistic for power, greed, control and sex rather than to defend the goodness of God and humanity of His message.

And in doing so, it is not the West or the infidel or another religion or anoither state or another political group that will destroy Islam.

And I would remind JZ and other Muslims who read this column to remember that the Prophet himself said that the dsetruction of Islam would come out of the Nejd.

Wake up, guys, the end of Islam, by prophecy, is here unless you take this particular prediction seriously. And if you stand by, refuse to create the 9th madabh, refuse to excommunicate every member of Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, Jama'ah al-Islamiya, and the Khomenist imams and create a path out for the billion Muslims worldwide who can't count on their own ulema to face the problem, the truth is that by political action or war, Islam will be illegalized worldwide.

It may be that at the present time there are only a few countires willing to stand up -- cowardice, again, the plague of both sides -- but that will not always be so. The world will not allow Muslim criminal behavior forever.

And when that time comes, as it must, Muslims will probably whine and seeth and rage while exhibiting the same cowardice, irresponsibility, and embarrasing "victimhood" that has characterized their mass abandonment of responsibility thus far.

And it will fall on deaf ears, as it should.

There are bright, wonderful exceptions to the general rule of smug, supremacity carping that we've heard so far.

Brightest among them:

Mustafa Akyol, the 33-year-old Islamic theorists and op-ed editor of Turkish Daily News who advocates the removal of the hadith, the relegation of the Medinan verses, and the elevation of purely spiritual verses from the earliest parts of the Qur'an. He advocates, with the brilliant late Dr. Fazlur Rahman of the University of Chicago, the complete equality of women (as do the Islamic feminists, who oddly win court cases in the worst places in the world based on the equality principles in some parts of the Qur'an), total tolerance of other religions, and a warm embracing of Christianity and Judaism by Muslims. He points out that the Qur'an specifically states that Palestine is the home of the Jewish people (the least quoted verse of the Qur'an EVER!!). He visits Israel, he supports the Pope, he loves everybody, and he is one of my best friends, and he will remain so for his whole.

If the future of Islam were in the hands of this man, there would be a future.

But so long as the future of Islam resides in the hands of the House of Saud (better the Hashemites from whom they took it) and while the American Muslim community plays oportunistic, manipulative games -- the Amercan Muslim community, the richest, best educated, most powerful Muslim community on earth that SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE LEADERSHIP POSTION ON ISLAMIC REFORM AND FAILED TO DO SO -- as long as that community would rather staged manipulative games at airports to see if they can get MORE right than that enjoyed by any other religious group or ethnic subculture, then Islam is doomed.

And it is largely doomed by the disgusting, nauseating behavior of the American Muslim community while their poor, powerless brothers and sisters this morning march in the hundreds through southern Thailand to protest Muslim radical violence, knowing full well that the radicals are snapping digital photographs of them and will behead or rape or burn some of them next week.

Those Muslims SHAME the American Muslims who draw social discontents and misfits and criminals to their mosques in Texas and California, people who convert ONLY so they do violence and hide behind an Islamic definition of exoneration and for no other reason. Those Muslims SHAME the American Muslims who defend CAIR's modus operandi of screaming discrimination -- like some lying bitch screams rape to control a boyfriend -- when they've had at least five high-ranking members jailed for terrorism and have "defended" everyone from Ismael Royer (22 years on terrorisms charges on a plea bargain when he should have got life), Sami Al Arian who in total cowardice did a plea bargain when he should have got life, Alamoudi, the imams of the GISS who were deported. The endless stream of criminals and terrorist ties and manipulations -- CAIR, which began as "HAMAS IN THE UNITED STATES" and, frankly, remains so.

That these American Muslims, sucking off the constitutional rights we gave them while supporting organizations whose purpose it is to subvert us and practice "soft terrorism" 24/7/365 in this country, haven't got the spine to stand up EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW IT IS WRONG, is despicable and unworthy of the respect of their own religion.

If they believe that the major thrust of Islam is peace, truth, goodness, kindness, and transcendent spirituality -- which it certainly has been in the hands of some poets and mystics from time to time -- then they must have the guts, the spine, the courage, whatever you want to call, to clear the hadith and Qur'anic verses that are inimical to the rights of others -- any others, including women, half the population of Islam!

Or, get ready for the end -- yours, not ours. And if that end comes, it will have been at your own hand, and you Muslims who will not do what you know is right, who opt for opportunism for cheap, tawdry political gains or the subversion of cultures and women by violence, who sell out your religion only to get sex when and how you want it, can explain to Allah how you destroyed one of the six major religions on the planet.

Meanwhile, I will continue to read Rumi and al-Arabi, I will grieve for the day that there was snow in the desert, when for just a moment there was a grand possibility, destoying even in its own time, by its incorporation of desert tribalist violence and its own succumbing to supremacist negative ego.

Can it transformed? Yes.

But it will take the one thing you guys don't seem to have: a spine.

Okay, same letter, but I substituted "Christian" for "Muslim," "Imam Fred" for "Robert," "Christianity' for "Islam." and so forth.

It doesn't matter if the writer is Muslim or Christian; the whole letter reeks of presumptuousness and arrogance!

_______________________

Dear Imam Fred,

As a Christian and aspiring filmmaker, it hurts and disturbs me that you make a living off of criticizing and vilifying my beautiful and peaceful way of Life. I just want you to know that Christians all around the world, including Jihad Watch will always be there to stand up and speak out against your immaturity, ignorance, and prejudice.

Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Muslim while you demonize your Christian and Jewish brothers/sisters. I think there's still a lot you need to learn about being a human being. I'm only 23 years old, yet I have learned in life that not all adults are mature and grown up. From the quality of your work, it shows that you don't care about compassion or peace, but separation and war.

Don't you feel ashamed of yourself at all for being so negative and prejudice? Is this the type of world you want people to live in? Do you want to keep spreading intolerance and ignorance in the world? Do you want your children to be just as hateful and ignorant as you? Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings. Christianity teaches us to journey outside of ourselves and help people who are in need. I could easily get a book published if I said some bad things about my religion because that's what the world wants, they like when ex-Christians write negative things about Christianity but no thank you, I choose God over worldly "success" because His Love is Greater than anything people like YOU have ever known. The Love I have for my people is greater than yours because my work stems from Truth and flows with compassion and peace, they came from my Heart. Yours are filled with lies and deception. How are you making the world a better place?? You're making it worse. Because of people like you, I have to worry about my children being picked on just because of their ethnicity and religious background. Because of people like you, I can't stand up for my rights without someone complaining and saying Christianophobia is some "myth." A myth? I've been pulled over by police officers so many times while working on my independent films, just because I'm brown skinned, but do I judge all Americans and say they are evil? No, of course not! America is a country founded on religious freedom and tolerance, Imam Fred, and even our elementary schools teach us to treat others as human beings and to never judge people based on the color of their skin, religion, or nationality.

Shame on you, Imam Fred.

No matter what you do, Christians will always be here. And I know that bothers you. Just remember that peace, tolerance, and Love is being taught to you RIGHT NOW by a Christian, and I hope one day, pray to God, you will see my films.

Salaam, Shalom, Shlama, Peace

Christopher

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus

Rafa, that was gooooooooooooood!!

It's really telling when you do that. Really telling.

Rafa,

Thank-you for a good presentation. As for JehanJeb, I do not think Mr. Oscar is going to pay a visit soon to see him.

Wow, people! Did you see how many times the Muslim Mr. Zeb mentioned MOI??!! I really got to him! Why? Because he knows that EVERYTHING I said was, is, TRUE!

Of course he never comments on honor killings! Of course HE is the "hater," not me, and of course he engages in "ad Hominem" attacks against me instead of addressing the substantive issues I raised! You're as transparent as onion-skin paper, Mr. Zeb - We see right through you! And if it helps your measly self-esteem any, keep up with the "ad Hominem" attacks, LOL! "Onion Skin Mr. ZEB!"

By the way, in English, the comma/period goes BEFORE the quotation mark, so it's "sneak away," not "sneak away", - Get it?

HA-HA! Really got you, you hater! You ignorant Muslim! Go back to Yemen, Mr. Zeb, and take your "HUGE" family with you! Ha-ha! Got you! And I'm female, too! Love it! Go lick your misogynist wounds, Barbarian.

"Infidel Pride" - you think Zeb is from Pakistan?

That's where the males throw acid on women and never get punished for such an evil deed. That's where Honor Killings flourish and the males never get punished for murdering their own female relatives (Of course, honor killings happen in all Muslim countries and in the UK, France, Holland, etc now due to immigration). That's where raped women are stoned to death. That's where raped women get paraded around naked in the streets. That's where females have no rights, whatsoever. That's where a female Minister for Social Welfare, Zilla Huma Usman, was shot down in the street last week because a male Muslim didn't "approve" of the way she was dressed. He murdered her for that! She's dead!

The barbarity and misogyny of male Muslims, including Mr. Zeb, cannot be underestimated. People all of those stories can be found online at metimes.com - "The Middle East Times." Click on the "Women" heading.

LOL! GOT YOU, ZEB! LOVE IT!

The comma/period go before the quotation mark in some cases, and after the quotation mark in others. So there is not a general rule that can be applied; use is always determined specifically.

For newspaper articles and other journalistic conventions see The Associated Press Stylebook, the "bible" of journalistic usage.

For common usage for standard, formal and academic usage see The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition (that's the new one).

Look, Mr. Sinclair, in this case I'm correct. I know about the other cases. So, save your style manuel for the Muslim, 'k?

By the way, I didn't read your long post above, so can you boil down your main point(s) to a paragraph or two?

Mr. Spencer, perhaps I missed it on JW, but could you post an article about the female Pakistani Minister of Social Welfare, Zilla Huma Usman, murdered in the street last week by a male Muslim who didn't "approve" of her attire?

Thank You, Darcy

darcy:

No, I won't "boil down" my posts (2) to a graf or two. They were for Zeb who needs to read both in their entirety.

And claiming as you do, and I quote ...

"By the way, in English, the comma/period goes BEFORE the quotation mark, so it's "sneak away," not "sneak away", - Get it?"

... is inaccurate. If you know better than what you said, it's best you make an indication of that so you don't leave the opposite impression.

And, for what must be the 20th time, I'm a woman, Navy mom.

Thanks, "americaningermany." Especially since I'm female! Yep, ol' Zeb didn't like that at all!

How are things going in Germany with the Muslim infiltration?

What is your problem, Morgaan? I don't have to prove anything to you and I'm not going to.

P.S. Since "Brevity is the soul of wit," you'd do better to make shorter posts that people will read.

darcy,

Zeb used the quotations marks correctly. I tried not to embarrass you about it, but there it is.

And I'm not interested in being "witty", (quotations and comma used correctly) I am interested in getting some complex points and concepts. Those don't lend themselves to soundbites. Therefore, those who have the time, patience, and comprehension to deal with them will read my posts; those that don't have all three, won't. That's all right.

But no, I'm not going to write with "brevity" something that cannot be expressed that way, and I am not interested in how cute, flashy, or witty it seems to you.

You seem more interested in gloating that Zeb paid attention to you than you are in serious conversation. In an odd way you are seeking his approval, and I'm dismayed at the kind of adolescent response you gave with "MOI" and Wow, people! Did you see how many times the Muslim Mr. Zeb mentioned MOI??!!

Come on. Grow up. This is serious. It's not about whether someone you claim to disagree with is giving you more attention than others who are writing here.

Find your adult.

Salaam,

It's really sad that your negative perception of Muslims is making you generalize about me and my character. I am a Muslim male, this is true, but I think that someone deserves a chance to voice his opinion and beliefs before you start making a judgment about me.

Darcy, you didn't "get" to me. I would like you to know that the majority of Muslims are peaceful human beings and we treat women with utmost respect and Love. I'm sure you're aware that Muslim males aren't the only ones who beat and abuse their wives. Mind you, I grew up in a predominately white suburb and I've see young men in this country treat women like objects. People engage in many pre-marital relationships and they wind up getting pregnant at such a young age. Some people even have multiple relationships going on, people cheat, people dump each other and then seek another girl/boyfriend. Of course this is something that exists all over the world, but this mostly happens in western culture. Do people get into relationships because they want to feel secure and accepted, or is it because they are truly in Love? In the heart of Islam, self-discipline is taught to both men and women. Men also have to practice modesty in the same way as Muslim women. If you see the majority of us, you'll probably admire how we address each other as "brother" and "sister" and we keep our hands to ourselves. The Beauty and Love is preserved before marriage, it's nourished by self-discpline, modesty, and dignity, and it makes that Love THAT much more desirable and special. These are the lessons of true Love taught by God Himself, and it isn't exclusive to only the Islamic tradition, but also in the Jewish and Christian tradition.

There is something very beautiful about how Muslim men and women preserve themselves for a certain point in time where they will spend an eternity of their lives together. A non-Muslim friend of mine (who is a girl) once said that "all women wear hijaab because hijaab symbolizes modesty, self-respect, and dignity, and we all take it off for someone who is worth it." I simply ask you, Darcy, to put the stereotype on the side for a moment and look at the majority for a change. Muslim men and women, including myself, are aware of the horrible things that happen with spousal abuse, but many of us would never dare harm our wives in such a way. God blesses us with the right person, but many times, we try to make other people our soul mates - that is the risk of pre-marital relationships. We need to leave things up to God because He has a set time for everything. We need to walk on the open road and focus on our purpose in this life, and when the time is right, we will see someone else walking from the opposite side. This person is our mirror, our twin half, our soul mate. This is the beauty of patience. Anyone who has experienced this Truth will discover a Love so powerful that it makes you want to embrace all of humankind. That is how I personally feel, I feel that I am united with all human beings in spirit because we all stem from the Same Eternal Source. We are all God's creation. If you want to deny that about me just because I'm a Muslim, then that is on you. I know that if you met me in person, you would really the compassion and peace in my heart.

Last semester I made a short film called "A Flower from the East" which is a Muslim romance, but also shows the struggles Muslim Americans face in the post 9/11 era. I had several non-Muslim girls audition for the lead female role and when I spoke to them about how Muslims preserve themselves for one another and how it makes their Love more special and desirable, they were really struck by how much they didn't know about it and they were like "aww, that's so beautiful!" On the set, we had many non-Muslims who were quite ignorant about Islam, but after seeing things such as prayer and even asking good questions, their opinions changed. This is what happens when you establish a bond with us, you learn more about diversity and you learn more about yourself. You can read about my film here:

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!1228.entry

I noticed that some other comments said things like "I will never be a Muslim" or something like that. I want to make it clear that I'm not calling for people to convert, that's not my job. That's up to the individual and to God. I feel that my purpose is to educate about Islam. If you condemn me as being a hateful and intolerant person, what do you have to say about my non-Muslim friends, are they to be condemned too because they are Jewish and Christian? Because they are doing something progressive like promoting peace?

My name is Jehanzeb - all one name, pronounced Ja (like in jump) han (like Han solo) zayb (rhymes with gabe).

I am not from Yemen by the way, and you're suggesting that I go back to Yemen just exposes (once again) your ignorance. I'm not an Arab either. I am a Muslim, a submitter to the Divine, a Pakistani, Punjabi, Kashmiri, and a breath breathing Human Being.

Whoever said it was highly unlikely that Jesus was a rag-head needs to be reminded that Jesus was Middle-Eastern and spoke Aramaic. The "ugly" truth is that Jesus looked more like a Palestinian, Iraqi, or Arab, more than a blonde haired blue eyed European.

Allaha Nnatarak (may God protect you, Aramaic)

~JehanZeb~

Mrs./Ms./Miss Sinclair,

This is the last time I will respond to someone
as foolish as you.

In no way would I ever seek a male Muslim's "approval!" You've got to be kidding! In fact, he DISapproved of all that I said, you didn't get that???

What I was "gloating" about is that my comments obviously affected him -GOOD! The number of times he responded to what I said proves that. And I'm glad that my comments hit some very sensitive spots. Again, good!

If anyone is "adolescent" here, it's you. I've noticed from other posters' comments that many have a problem with you, here on JW.

I will never again respond to someone as idiotic as you. So, go ahead and have the last word on this thread! Enjoy yourself, oh long-winded one! And, enjoy yourself with Mr. Zeb! Have fun, kiddie.

Darcy,

I've been doing my best to respond to everyone's comments. The replies are really overwhelming, I'm only one person here and it's not like I'm at the computer all the time! Besides, I haven't "debated" in a long time either, and I'm sure that shows, but I just came here to tell everyone that if you're going to read something like "JihadWatch" then why don't you give a chance to the majority of Muslims and their websites, such as www.free-minds.org?

~JehanZeb~

I would strongly recommend against going to JehanZeb's blog to debate him, particularly from work.

He will get your IP address. If you post from work, that will give him where you work, and he will be able to complain to your employer about your sending racist hate speech to his blog, in an attempt to get you in trouble

And I can't believe you called me a Barbarian. Isn't that ad hominem?

PapaBear,

You said: "I would strongly recommend against going to JehanZeb's blog to debate him, particularly from work.

He will get your IP address. If you post from work, that will give him where you work, and he will be able to complain to your employer about your sending racist hate speech to his blog, in an attempt to get you in trouble."

No, I wouldn't do that. It's not worth my time. It doesn't give me people's IP addresses anyway. I welcome you to my blog in order to get a better understanding of who I am.

JZ ...

You are still in denial. Answer some of the serious questions raised on this board.

Or, why are you whitewashing Islamic violence rather than having the spine to fight it.

You will never succeed in supplanting radical Islam as the overwhelming voice of Islam until you defeat it inside the religion and throw out the verses inimical to women and non-Muslims.

Then, and only then, will you be practicing a peaceful religion.

And until you do, your are practicing soft terrorism because you are giving consent by your silence.

There are powerful imams, an effective (and oppressive) ulema, having enough influence to change things if they wanted, and if they had the guts, rather than sacrificing American lives to fight the radicals, sneering at "infidels" at the same time, while you get fat and shoot your mouths off in the country you fled to when your own Islamic states raped your economies by incarcerating half the work force at home.

Deal with some serious issues. And get into some Islamic organization that is bent on fighting radical Islam rather than pretending it doesn't exist.

Jehaneb,

Here is my 3rd attempt to get a substantive, response from you:

As others have pointed out, your continued evasive taqiyya/kitman, da'wa, and dissembling, and non-answers to polite questions have discredited yourself, as well as your putative "moderate" position.

As a muslim, how do you respond (or how have you responded), to your fellow muslims when they spout supremacist and hate filled messages, such as those typical of the so-called "islamic thinkers society", I linked above? Do you agree with them? If not, where are they mistaken in their claim to promoting true islam?

The following quotation is from chants of the "islamic thinkers society", a group of pious muslims who apparently disagree with your message here:

" Israel won’t last long… Indeed, Allah will repeat the Holocaust right on the soil of Israel
Takbeer!
Response: Allahu Akbar!

* * *
No wonder they call you sons of apes and pigs because that’s what you are.

We know many government services are watching us
Such as the FBI…CIA…Mossad, Homeland Security…
We know we are getting on their nerves
And so are you….
So we say the hell with you!
May the FBI burn in Hell
CIA burn in Hell
Mossad burn in Hell
Homeland Security burn in hell!!

Islam will dominate the world
Islam is the only solution
Islam will dominate the world
Islam is the only solution
Takbeer!
La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur Rasool Allah

* * *
Another mushroom cloud, right in the midst of Israel!
Takbeer!! Allahu Akbar! "

from: http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005049.htm?print=1

So, again, JehanZeb: How is the "islamic thinkers society" mistaken in their muslim belief, such that they produce what is quoted above?

And BTW, Zeb. If you find anything said ACTUALLY ad hominem, if you write to JW management, they will remove it.

They have removed hundreds of posts by stupid people that suggested nuking Mecca and made lewd comments about Muslim prayer positions or used foul or scatalogical language.

That is in contrast, BTW, to Muslims calls for beheadings of Americans and the death threats Robert Spencer has received toward himself and his families by people of Pakistani descent, some of them in England.

I have been in contact with some of the people who wrote those threats -- and have turned them in to Scotland Yard.

So if you want to clean up some language, start with that of the radicals who threaten to kill American writers and their wives and their children.

If you have any integrity, start there. AND if you find the speech directed toward you unacceptable, write to JW management about it.

You'll find them much more fair than the people who call for their subjects to kill Tony Blair or who plot to enter the Canadian parliament building and cut off the head of the prime minister and televise it.

Zeb, you said to Papa Bear:

"No, I wouldn't do that. It's not worth my time."

I would have been much more impressed if you had said you wouldn't do it because it's immoral to harass someone exercising their free speech.

SPEAKS VOLUMES, ZEB. VOLUMES. IT SCREAMS IT. YOU ONLY DON'T DO IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TIME, BUT IF YOU DID HAVE TIME, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????

Zeb, so long as you defend a terrorist organization like CAIR, you have no credibility. You CAN'T have any credibility among clear-thinking people.

AND ... PLEASE RESPOND TO THE SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES BROUGHT UP BY "DEL" ... none of which you have answered.

"Hey babe, I'm an independent FILM DIRECTOR! Would you like a leading role in my new film? Let me tell you 'bout muslim love......."

I say people just ignore the troll. 90% of his posts are about how wonderful lovers muslim men are, he's just looking to get some (why here on jihadwatch, I have no idea!)....

Morgaan,

Whoa...

I had no idea that I was implicating that I WOULD do it if I had the time. I wouldn't do it at all because I'm not like that (which is why I invited Papabear to visit my blog to get a better understanding of who I am). Immoral, yes, and immature. I'm not after anyone's job just because they're speaking their mind.

I'm not hurt by anyone's words, it's just the internet, but I am disturbed by people's negative perception of a Muslim individual like myself. I truly believe the conversations would have been different if they were in person.

This deceiver should go to Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, or Afghanistan and tell the MILLIONS of Muslims collectively how wrong they are for being radical. If as little as 10% of worldwide Muslims are radical, then 200 Million is not a tiny minority. This JehanZeb guy would rather expend energy trying to silence those who criticize Islam rather than confront those 200 MILLION who supposedly take it out of context. Not to mention the violent start of Islam and it's violent history over the past 1400 years. Yes, when the rest of the world gets fed up with it, the rest of the world will do what it can to reduce Islam. Islam will NOT ever reform itself. How many CHURCHES are there in Saudi Arabia?

JehanZeb --

You stated, "the 'ugly' truth is that Jesus looked more like a Palestinian, Iraqi, etc, more than a blonde haired, blue eyed European"

Where did that come from?! Did someone say that Jesus DID NOT look like an "ugly" Palestinian?

God loves the Palestinian people -- in fact -- God loves all races, so why would you say that it's an "ugly truth"? Jesus was Jewish, so of course he did not have blonde hair or blue eyes.

The blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus "theory" went out a LONG time ago, so I thought I would bring you up to speed as well.

I know that you're busy answering everyone's posts, but you still need to answer mine concerning your prophet Mohammad. How could you follow such a murderous man? How could you teach your own children to follow such an animal? That does not make ANY sense to me, and in my opinion, you are the one who should be ashamed of yourself. You say you love your children, and yet you expose them to the teachings of Mohammad the Murderer. That is child abuse.

Read Robert's book, The Truth About Mohammad, and then lets hear what you have to say in defense of your religion. I would bet that we would not hear from you ever again because no one likes to be caught with their tail between their legs.

Morgaan,

In response to Del, I don't understand why people are accusing me of disguising my beliefs. That's not what I'm doing. You can't look inside of me and tell me what I'm doing or how I believe. God knows my intentions, He knows what I believe, and truthfully, that's all that matters.

Those remarks towards Israelis and Jews don't reflect the true essence or spirit of Islam. The Truth is, those people behave that way for a reason, not because they want to dominate the world. If the majority of Muslims wanted to dominate the world, then we'd see so many Muslims in the United States commanding people to convert to Islam, but instead, people are converting to Islam by choice. We are not seeing forced conversions. I think that Islam is something NOT to be feared because like Judaism and Christianity, it originates from the Middle-East. The only difference is that Islam hasn't been anglicized as much. We're bound to see more American Muslims in the future and I believe this is a sign for hope, because establishing a personal connection with people is very important and impacting.

I believe I address a lot of issues in one of my blog entries a couple years ago. PLEASE follow this link and read the discussion at the bottom where I answered the questions of a Catholic visitor. She is a mother and initially had negative views towards Islam.

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!302.entry#comment

I believe the things I address help answer some of the questions that have been raised on this thread. If not, then feel free to ask. Take care,

~JehanZeb~

Here is another link (this time, to HER blog) where we had a nice dialogue. The discussion begins at the bottom of the page:

http://stbensmom.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!6E28C935FD7E8C3E!305.entry

That letter is pure taqiyya.

Never believe ANYTHING a Muslim says. It just won't prove true.

************************************************************

" Teaching peace, tolerance, and love"--and jihad would be more like it. (THAT IS WHAT BOTHERS US).

ps-Islam is a political ideology as much as religion and as such it does NOT practice tolerance of any kind. How stupid does this guy think we are?????

Deliver us from Islam!!!!!!

americaningermany

My name is Jehanzeb, not "JihanJeb"

Jehan means world
Zeb means beauty

Beauty of the world. The name is a mix of Farsi, Urdu, and Arabic.

I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone kept addressing you with a different name.

~JehanZeb~

Well I have to go now, but it was nice to correspond with at least one person who is taking my words seriously.

Take care everyone and may God be with you always,

~JehanZeb~

I leave you with some advice from a great American poet:

"THIS IS WHAT YOU SHALL DO: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency not only in its words but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body."

- Walt Whitman

Zeb, at this point I don't consider you an honest broker.

You either answer the serious, substantive issues in both my posts or don't talk to me.

You are a shuck-and-jive artist, a CAIR apologist, and a terrorism apologist because you will not face and deal with the obvious issues of debased violence, based in Qur'anic precept.

Your attempt to proffer a "peaceful version" of Islam without dealing with such issues is like those creepy little New Agers in Sedona who put little fake gossamer wings to do little archangel dances believing they have spirituality. It's as far from real mystic spirituality as a person can get.

You will be supporting terrorism so long as you do not ACTIVELY GET OUT THERE AND RAIL AGAINST WITH EVER FIBRE OF YOUR BEING. You support it by trying to claim that what terrorists do, quoting the Qur'an with ever lash, beheading, rape, and bombing, by not demanding that those precepts be stricken from Islamic theology.

I consider your posts on this website disingenuous and design to guilt-trip and misinform.

You are the other half of what's wrong with Islam. You are the half that intends to mystify and hyponotize, whine in your self-pity while OUTRIGHT CLAIMING THAT THE "MODESTY" ISSUE IS THE SAME FOR MEN AND WOMEN.

The people on this website, and the American public at large, did not fall up a squeeking turnip truck last afternoon.

If you will not respond to what Robert Spencer said, if you will not respond to the Qur'anic quotes he has offered, if you will not deal with the 12 major issues I outlined in my two logner posts, then you should back to your website and just continue to lie to those who will listen to you.

But don't blame me, kiddo, when every Muslim who had a chance to do something and didn't gets their green card revoked and mosque shut down for material support of terrorism, hate speech, incitement to violence, and sedition.

You stand warned.

Greetings Americaningermany!

Glad you're back!!!

pythagoras --

You are right!! Islam IS a political ideology, and "religion-of-peace" is it's facade. But once you look beneath the surface you discover the Truth -- and it ain't a pretty sight.

Guess Muslims decided to call their political ideologies a "religion" so they could make Murdering Mo more appealing to the masses. But how stupid do you have to be to believe that this guy was a "prophet from God". Real stupid I guess.

Anyone have any Raid?

JehanZeb,

You wrote to Morgaan Sinclair, in reference to my questions above:

"...Those remarks towards Israelis and Jews don't reflect the true essence or spirit of Islam. The Truth is, those people behave that way for a reason, not because they want to dominate the world..."

This is not a substantive response to my question, which concerned how you respond to your fellow muslims who spout hatred. Try again, please.

The "islamic thinkers society" does not, itself, wish to dominate the world. They wish the world to be dominated by islam and sharia. But, what, in your view, is the "reason" which you note, but do not describe, in your phrase, "those people behave that way for a reason"?

Please demonstrate, using your knowledge of islam and its texts, how the "true essence or spirit of islam" is incorrectly understood by your fellow muslims in the "islamic thinkers society". Also, if possible, please demonstrate how you have demonstrated against the demonstrations of the "islamic thinkers society", or their ilk, in the past.

Please cut and paste from any of your previous writings into this thread, rather than linking to your own blog. Thank you for your assistance.

Religion

And

Ideology

Destroyer

I think Vons carries it.

For JehanZeb, specific questions. You can cut and paste this and fill in answers.

(1) Do you care AT ALL that the radicals bomb, behead, rape, torture, and incite violence towards non-Muslims?

(2) Are you sorry that 9/11 happened?

(3) Do you think 9/11 was justified? If so, why?

(4) Do you believe in equal rights for women in marriage, inheritance, rights to divorce, rights to drive, own property, stand for office, run for prime minister, get education, leave the house without permission?

(5) In your opinion, does Islam require cover?

(6) In your opinion, does Islam require that a woman's children belong to her husband?

(7) Do you agree with the imam at the Roxbury mosque who says that women are deficient?

(8) Do you agree with the mufti of Australia that says that if a woman is uncovered she is "raw meat" and that if she's raped it's her fault.

(9) Do you want shari'a law instituted for Muslims in America?

(10) Do you believe Sufis are apostates?

(11) Do you believe that non-Muslims should be taxed in Muslim majority countries.

(12) Do you belivee in hudud penal codes?

(13) Do you think that madrassahs should be prevented from preaching violent jihad?

(14) Do you believe in the concept of Dar-al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb and thus that there all territory in the Middle East must be owned by and ruled by Muslims?

(15) Do you believe that a Muslim is allowed to put a call to jihad before his responsibilities of pluralism under US law?

(16) Do you believe that Jews are the Elder Brother?

When you're done I have another set.

It is absolutely insane for you to quote a Christian, Walt Whitman, in defense of Islam when the radicals would have cut his head off and thrown it in the Merrimack River.

Deal with what's wrong with your religion.

This JehanZeb guy is aggressive and hates non-muslims. And yet this guy claims to be one of the "peace loving" "moderates." Wow, there really is no such thing as a "moderate." Here's a list of the aggressive insult-projectile words he likes to use: "vilifying", "immaturity", "ignorance", "prejudice", "demonize", "ashamed", "negative", "intolerance", "lies", "deception", "Islamophobia", "criticizing", "insulting", "terrorist", "antagonism".

These are the words he likes to project onto others.

These are the ways and words of a "moderate" muslim.

The first thing a Muslim learns from birth is how to psychologically manipulate language.

JehanZeb said:

p.s. Do any of you listen to Middle-Eastern music?

I'm sure we will someday, every Friday afternoon, whether we want to or not.

Hey Jehan Zeb,

I am a voice of reason and I understand where you are coming from; it is unfair to generalize about all Muslims. I think we all get that, except perhaps Darcy, who should lay off of Ms. Sinclair and stop drinking while she writes.

Let's move on. You have been asked many direct questions. I have counted no direct answers from you. This is not dialogue; it is obfiscation, avoidance, and probably a little something psychologists' call "denial." (See Darcy, there are sober writers who know how to do it too!)

If you cannot explain your understanding of Islam in light of the numerous Quranic quotes that are contrary to it, I believe I speak for everyone in saying that your words are meaningless to us.

Those who are raised Muslim are so comfortable with the dualism that is Islam, they assume that the rest of us understand religion without logic too. The Pope's call for dialogue at Regensburg was a call to true dialogue, a dialectic discussion that exposes truth. Predictably, the Muslim world's reaction was overwrought and violent. Since you are neither of these things, you have fallen to the only other way to avoid facing uncomfortable truths about your beliefs: ignore the real issues and divert attention to something else.

I have news for you Jehan Zeb, lack of directness will only sell to the weak-minded, drunk, or lost. And, Darcy proves that even the drunks aren't pushovers.

Hey american, I'm relieved as well; but if I were a guy, then I would be thanking my mother everyday for a name like that. How did he survive his childhood?

Jehanzeb,

Would you please elaborate on how loving and peaceful Islam is? And then could you define "Love" for us?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015423.php#comments

Thanks.

For JehanZeb ... Question Set #2

(1) Do you agree with violent jihad as a method to get what you want?

(2) What is your personal opinion on Sayed Qubt?

(3) What is your personal opinion of Osama bin Laden?

(4) What are your PERSONALLY doing to stop terrorism?

(5) Would you consider fighting the radical Taliban in Afghanistan in defense of your fiath?

(6) Do you believe that there are some Muslims -- Sufis, Baha'i, Ismaelis or Shi'a -- who should be considered apostates from Islam?

(7) Do you believe that apostates should receive the death penalty.

(8) In Afghanistan last year a woman who appeared on TV without cover and hosted a TV women's issues magazine was gunned down in her home. She was accused of insulting Islam. Do you think she insulted Islam by not wearing a veil? And do you think the punishment for what she did was appropriate?

(9) Do you support the "repugnancy clauses" put in the Iraqi and Afghan constitutions by Zalmay Khalilizad (US ambassador!) that say no law should be made which is "unIslamic?"

(10) Do you think that Islamic law should trump civil law?

(11) Do you think that shari'a law should be instituted again before all its anti-female statutes have been removed by APPROPRIATE FEMALE THEOLOGIANS?

(12) Do you support suicide bombing in Israel?

(13) Do you give money to ISNA, ICNA, AMPAC, APAC, MPAC, WAMY, HAMAS or the Muslim Brotherhood?

(14) Do you expect your wife to give you sex any time you ask for it?

(15) Do you expect your sisters to allow marriages to be arranged for them?

(16) Do you expect the female members of your family to wear cover?

(17) Do you agree that young girls should wear cover by age 10?

(18) Do you agree that it's OK to beat young girls if they refuse?

(19) Does your mosque take money from Saudi Arabia?

(20) How many of the men between 18 and 35 that go to your mosque have volunteered to fight radical Islamism and have born arms against terrorists?

Thank you for a prompt response.

The "Darcy drinking while she writes" and the prompt personal attack make me think I now realize who Darcy is.

Thanks for the hints, guys.

In essence what this JehanZeb guy is really bothered about is criticism of Islam. He has been brought-up and brainwashed that no-one is allowed to criticize Islam. That's why his first write-up to Robert was all bent out of shape, full of insults etc. and now he's trying to come across as all "moderate" and such. He knows in his heart that Islam is an upside-down forceful ideology built out of a collection of house-of-cards historical documents that cannot stand up to question, challenge or criticism.

Mr. JehanZeb,

Please understand; the validity and truth of Mr. Spencer's message is not dependent on how you feel or think of him personally, or on whatever divisiveness you see his message causing.

Mr. Spencer's central argument is that Muslims who hate & kill in the name of Allah are using traditional and, in many cases, mainstream understandings of Islam and The Prophet Muhammad to justify their views and actions - they are not simply pulling verses and concepts out of thin air.

Some of the verses that the radicals use have been listed in this thread. Right now you have a wonderful opportunity to discuss how you understand these passages: what you were taught, what you learned, what you rejected, etc.

Ok, so maybe it seems that some here will reject and attack whatever you say. The point is, those of us who are very receptive are becoming less so as we see you squander this opportunity by not focusing on this central argument.

You seem to be saying, "I'm not violent or hateful, yet I'm the product of the religion you are bashing and claiming is violent." Are you presenting yourself as a counter argument, by showing how peaceful, tolerant, loving, and spiritually developed you are? I'm glad to see that you are so happy and spiritually satisfied with Islam. However, that does not answer, in any way, Mr. Spencer's argument.

Your claim of spiritual and moral development demands that you understand someone before rebuking and chastising them. So far, you haven’t demonstrated that understanding.

Zeb is answering NO specific questions about his attitude. That's a bad sign.

Specific questions, with yes or not answers in most cases, are very clarifying as to whether someone is trying to snow you, as per the USUAL CAIR BULLS'HIT (technical term) THAT ITS VIOLENCE IS PEACEFUL.

It's like saying, "I dare you to say I'm not peaceful, and if you do, I'll kill you and your family."

Something that has been directly said to Robert Spencer and every other critical of hostile Qur'anic verses that are regularly quoted to us and to Muslims by Al Qaeda, verses that excuse and exonerate in the minds of Muslims acts of torture, rape, beheading, dismemberment, amputation, forced conversation, stoning, taxing, and taking out the "infidel" at a gas station in the Rub al Kali.

When you get serious about answering my questions, Zeb, I'll be here.

JehanZeb does something we have seen, over the years here at Jihad Watch, a few other Muslim posters do: he makes an initial splash with some initial long post (in this case, Spencer himself lifted it further out of the Comments section and made it a thread in its own right), then other Jihad Watch posters barrage that Muslim with a slew of responses (some insubstantial and impolite, but many quite substantial and curteous in a no-nonsense way).

Then the Muslim does not respond for a long time (sometimes one day, sometimes longer) -- then, the Muslim does pretty much exactly what JehanZeb did when he decided to re-enter the fray:

"Gee shucks, golly gee, I didn't know little old me would arouse such a flood of responses! Heck, I'm just one little old humble guy, I can't respond to to them all, but let me at least give it a whirl..."

Then the Muslim, as JehanZeb does above, cherrypicks only the least substantive and most offensive posts and responds only to these, responding to them with blandly vague and insubstantial platitudes and bromides -- meanwhile scrupulously ignoring the many posts that were substantive and that were, though affecting a no-nonsense tone, generally polite and reasonable.

I would suggest to JehanZeb that if he would really like to engage in the spiritual labor of the Inner Jihad, he should set aside a few hours to diligently and carefully read all the posts on this thread that were substantive challenges to him, and then spend the time and effort (the "inner jihad" type of effort) -- not to mention to show the respect to us -- to meticulously, faithfully and completely respond to all the substantive points raised in challenge to him. So far, JehanZeb has been dancing around the serious challenges to him -- and not even dancing with much effort; more of a lazy man's tap-dance.

A few times my posts haven't made thier appearances or were short lived.Of course i understand how they basicly say " Kill 'em all and let allah sort them out".What do you expect with all the free expressions given as examples from those who have not earned one iota of the freedoms they use to impale us with.

So in anothers words,one of my all time favorite bands 'Metallica' let me give you the lyrics of one of thier songs.

This is entitled "Free speech for the dumb"

Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free !@#$%^& speech.

Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free speech,free speech for the dumb
Free !@#$%^& speech.

Short and sweet.

Do you know the lyrics to Enter Sandman -- that's my personal favorite :)

JehanZeb treats us to some

"front office Islam",

a touch of "my own private Islam,"

a lot of dodging of pointed questions and comments,

failure to substantiate a single one of his accusations against Spencer,

and several replies (including ones in which he claimed he had very little time available in which to post) to talk about how wonderful he truly is.

Next, when we ask for his opinion on Koran 3:85*, he will be telling us he likes kittens and taking long walks in the park.

*3:85.(Shakir). "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

As long as JehanZeb continues to posture and preen and evade our substantive questions, the most reliable indicators of what he really believes will remain verses such as 3:85, 98:6, 9:28, etc.

remote_control,

You wrote: "JehanZeb does something we have seen, over the years here at Jihad Watch..."

Yes. Well said.

If Muslims fought battles the way Mr World Beauty conducts debates and responds to debating points, we'd still have the Jews of Banu Quraiza and the Pagans of Mecca.

Champ, answer to "how did he survive his childhood?" - well, you can see the effect the name had on him. I blame his parents.

I forgot the Naseem question, but since Mr World Beauty seems to be from Lahore (like Naseem), here's another question that he may choose not to answer:
"Are Ahmadiyas/Qadianis/Lahooris real/true Muslims?"

"The scales will tip when living with Muslims is more trouble than living without them." - Zenster

Hasn't this been the case for decades already? I see absolutely no signs of pent-up public rage waiting to be unleashed. The Cronulla riots of Australia is just about the only instance that ever gets mentioned.

Everybody probably realizes, whether consciously or not, that the situation vis-a-vis Islam is highly explosive, due to their short fuse and pent-up rage. This calls for another equation as I see it: whether engaging in this potential conflict, whose outcome is unpredictable, is worthwhile given the peace, prosperity and general comfort we in the West enjoy.

As I see it, the vast, vast majority by far prefers postponing the inevitable. The widespread denial is all too well known to us JW/DWers. So is Western self hatred. One may speculate to what extent there is an explicit death wish flourishing among us, desiring either a dreamy multicultural bliss, or even, as Hugh puts it, the total regulation of life offered by Islam.