From AP:
A civil rights group asked a judge Friday to find it unconstitutional for the federal government to exclude a prominent Muslim scholar or anyone else from the United States on the grounds that they may have endorsed or espoused terrorism.
Another blow for civil liberties in America: "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Terrorism."
The American Civil Liberties Union filed the papers attacking the policy in U.S. District Court in Manhattan. The group included in its submissions a written declaration in which the scholar, Tariq Ramadan, said he has always "opposed terrorism not only through my words but also through my actions."The ACLU said schools and organizations who want to invite Ramadan and others into the United States are concerned about what is known as the ideological exclusion provision.
It said an entry in the State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual says that the provision is directed at those who have voiced "irresponsible expressions of opinion."
The group said the provision violates the First Amendment and has resulted since 2001 in the exclusion from the United States of numerous foreign scholars, human rights activists and writers, barred "not for legitimate security reasons but rather because the government disfavors their politics."
The ACLU said some foreign scholars and writers are now reluctant to accept invitations to the United States because they will be subjected to ideological scrutiny and possibly denied entry.
And might have their feelings hurt, one hastens to add.
Rebekah Carmichael, a spokeswoman for government lawyers, said she had no comment Friday.
You could have managed better than that, Rebekah.
Before his visa was revoked in 2004, Ramadan had spoken at Harvard University, Stanford University and elsewhere. He said he continues to decline numerous invitations to appear in the United States, including a request by The American Academy of Religion to speak next November at its annual meeting.
Legitimate argument.
President Carter embraces Arafat in the White House.
Go from there. The lawyer scum will tell you a precedent has been set.
Tariq Ramadan is a supremacist fraud who treats his belief-system as if it is a scientific fact. His belief-system rationalizes his supremacism. BTW, this ACLU also produces this style obscenity too..
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20070223-104642-1644r.htm
Sedition
When is this government going to show some testicle fortitude and charge the ACLU and a host of other anarchists with sedition, because they make a fortune tying up the government in the courts subverting the will of the elected and the voters.
It is utter nonsense this letting in terrorists hiding as scholars. Any nation can keep anyone out they please to who is not a citizen.
A civil rights group asked a judge Friday to find it unconstitutional for the federal government to exclude a prominent Muslim scholar or anyone else from the United States on the grounds that they may have endorsed or espoused terrorism.
+++++++++++++++++++
lets just let more nazi muzzzards into the US because we can not discriminate against anyone including those that wish to murder Americans and destroy America.
God helps us........
The Texican.
God Family America Freedom the only choice at any cost.
Can't or WON'T bar terrorism supporters.
How did these people get so much power? Who made them the fourth branch of the American government??
Don't worry about the 4th branch - worry about W holding hands with the saudis who were behind 9/11
Our government - such as it is - has long ago sold us out.
The unpaid bills are just now trickling in.
Watch and see how those who sold us out will attempt - successfully - to blame it on the next group of traitors.
Tolerance of the intolerant is called suicide,
To allow one's enemies in a time of war to take advantage of one's free speech to propagandize is stupidity.
So the ACLU and every other lefty union would have us stupid and suicidal.
In the Old West, when government hyper decree offended the public's good sense, a crowd would occasionally release someone from jail, or string up known criminals.
Not recommended, but if the powers that be do not take the public's good common sense into consideration, then vigilantism can take over.
When will some ignorant fools cure their ignorance and read the koran.
President Carter embraces Arafat in the White House.
Posted by: infidel
ditto, Billy Clinton and Gerry Adams
"How did these people get so much power? Who made them the fourth branch of the American government??" by: Kemaste
We the People -to whom this nation truly belongs- did so- by not demanding that our elected representatives (often mistakenly deemed "leaders" - who hold temporary limited authority and powers -on our behalf and according to us) do what we put them office to do - support, and uphold the Constitution and defend us against all enemies -foreign and domestic.
So everyone - move along - back to the comfy sofa, pop open another beer, relax. There's nothing going on here except the usruping of power and control of the USA. Unless -we the people want things otherwise, there's nothing to worry about.
ACLU: US Can't Bar Terrorism Supporters
Like Hell.
This is it. The ACLU has just defined themselves as the enemy. Those who advocate, abet, sponsor, shield, propagate or protect terrorism are the avowed enemy of America.
Supporting terrorism lends weight to sedition. Period.
There can be no more clear abdication of responsibility for protecting the average American citizen's legal rights than the ACLU's current stance on terrorism.
PS: Over my dead body.
BTW: of course the timing of this story with this other story:
"ACLU ex-president charged in child-porn case" by Washington Times
is purely coincidental and in no way is the leftist-anything-goes-morality-is-relative media -in coordiantion with the a.c.l.u. attempting to defelct attention away from an "alleged" high level "pedophile" case (hmm pedophilia -where else is that a common theme?) :
"Federal authorities yesterday charged the former president of the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, who serves as a leader of youth sports organizations in the state, with receiving and possessing child pornography.
Charles Rust-Tierney, 51, of Arlington, was named in a criminal complaint filed by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Alexandria and was taken into custody ... ".
http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20070223-104642-1644r
Gerry Adams never killed Americans
Lamecherry said :"Sedition
When is this government going to show some testicle fortitude and charge the ACLU and a host of other anarchists with sedition?"
________________________________
Won't happen until we see some mushroom clouds or several dirty bombs go off in US cities. Or maybe a smallpox outbreak...until then, not.
One good thing: Under sharia law, which the ACLU is facilitating here in the US, there won't be any need for the ACLU any longer. Allah rules supreme, no appeals, no human Federal courts, no Supreme court.
I read a phrase today on an Islamic website and was wondering if someone could help me with context.
Here is the phrase: "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error. Whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most Trustworthy Handhold that will never break. And Allah is the Hearer and Knower of all things." (Qur'an 2:256)
First, is this an accurate phrase and second, is this saying that it is freedom of choice. That seems contrary to what I understood about Islam.
The following is evidence uncovered by Jean-Charles Brisard and represents a “legitimate and bona fide reason” for denying Taraq Ramadan a visa. Among Brisard’s findings are the following:
http://www.terrorfinance.org/the_terror_finance_blog/2006/09/tariq_ramadan_n.html.
No one should defend Ramadan without first reading, very carefully, Caroline Fourest's "Frere Tariq" and other articles in the French press -- Tariq Ramadan's ability to carry on his campaign of propaganda on behalf of Islam, and something he likes to call "European Islam" has had to move out of France and Switzerland, and he managed to wangle a temporary appointment as some kind of lecturer at St. Antony's College, entirely for post-graduate students, from which perch, and now describing himself, quite inaccurately, as a much grander thing, an "Oxford Univesity Professor," he, Ramadan, has not only been improving his English in order to spout the same kind of propaganda he used to deliver in French, and that here and there he still gets away with -as at that CransMontana Foundation do a year or two ago at which one "Tariq Ramadan" described as an "Oxford University Professor" solemnly appeared -- but remember, this is all in Monte Carlo, home to so many rich Arabs and, especially, estivating Saudis who take over whole floors of hotels, and sometimes entire hotels: the Societe des bains de mer and any monegasque foundations of course will be inviting the likes of Tariq Ramadan.
Now Ramadan -- whose claims about the supposedly deep intellectual and cultural influence of Islam on Europe's Renaissance would make any reputable historian scratch his head. The only influence of that sort one can think of are a handful of Greek manuscripts translated by Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews, chiefly in Cordoba or Baghdad, manuscripts which had no discerible influence on Islamic civilizatio, but were preserved and taken seriously in Western Christendom, but that is not due to Islam or to what is wrongly called "Islamic civilization." If one wished to give credit for the Renaissance to the world of Islam it would be the following: the seizure of lands by Muslims, the Seljuk and then the Ottoman Turks, caused many Greek scholars to flee Byzantium and, arriving in Italy with their mansuscripts, they helped to spark the Revival of Learning, that is the rediscovery of texts of classical antiquity that, in turn, in the end lead us to Marsilio Ficino, and Pico della Mirandola, and others associated with the Renaissance, neo-Platonism, and all that Oskar-Kristeller and I Tatti Library sort of stuff.
At the moment Ramadan slithered into a lowlly post at St. Antony's, a postgraduate Oxford college that is divided into its largely disreputable middle-eastern wing, and its straightforward Russian and East European Studies wing. Save for the odd Timnothy Ash who is quite willing to learn all he knows about Islam from the likes of Tariq Ramadan, the two do not intersect or overlap. Founded by Anton or Antoine Besse, a Jewish trader in Aden, St. Antony's (the name was a nod to the benefactor) in its middle-eastern wing was long under the sole control of Albert Hourani, once an acolyte of George Antonius (of "The Arab Awakening" fame, whose widow had an affair with Sir Evelyn Barker, last British military commander in Jerusalem). The D.Phil., unlike the Ph.D., does not require any course work. One arrives and writes one's thesis. If the thesis director is your pal, say you are a young Arab without any real scholarly training or bent, nonetheless Albert Hourani and others like him could make it possible for you to get that D.Phil. anyway, and then you can parlay that into a position back in the good old credulous U.S.A., where the MESA-Nostra Rules are in force. If you find this incredible, just ask Rashid Khalidi.
In any case, that's where Ramadan has been slithering these days, waiting until his devout admirers, such as Scott Appleby, ably assisted by the ACLU, manage to get him over here, so he can start appearing, start lecturing, start making the case for not a "European Islam" but now, just as absurdly and meaninglessly, an "American Islam."
He is a menace. He is a one-man Goebbels. Ask Bassam Tibi. Ask Magdi Allam of the Corriere della Sera and the RAI, who in his "Lettera aperta a Tariq Ramadan" says "I know you. I was born and raised as a Muslim in Egypt. I know all about you. I know what you write. I know how you lie. You can fool some of the Infidels but you can't fool me." More or less, that is what Magdi Allam says. The American government should consult with Magdi Allam. His writings should be translated. And he, and Caroline Fourest, and all those in Europe who have got Ramadan's number, should be consulted with -- for they know him, they have followed him, they cannot be fooled. And the United States is full of people in government who are naive and ill-informed, and need to be brought up to date, or up to speed, or up to something -- up to whatever Tariq Ramadan is up to, very quickly.
Asalaam alaykoum
Peace be unto you
I came across this site randomly and after reading several articles, I feel that it is very important to seek peace and understanding rather than criticizing a religion that is very dear to billions of Muslims all over the world. The manner in which you convey your opinions about Islam is not only uneducated, but also very offensive and arguably prejudice.
As a young Muslim myself, I believe promoting peace and creating dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims is something we ALL need to do because it is something progressive. Creating a website that vilifies Islam - a beautiful and peaceful way of Life - is regressive and only makes the writers look like immature, ignorant bigots who are quite reminiscent of the typical high school bully who picks on others just to boost his low self-esteem. Muslims in the West, like myself, are experiencing a daily onslaught of our way of life, and many of our voices are rarely put in the spotlight, but I assure you, many of us ARE speaking out.
My questions to you are: Do you personally know any Muslims? Do you have any Muslim friends? Do you know about the Muslim experience in the post 9/11 America? Have you ever visited a Mosque? Have you ever been to an inter-faith event (e.g. poetry recital)? Have you ever read the Holy Qur'an or any of the other Islamic spiritual texts such as the works of Jalaluddin Rumi or al-Ghazali, Rabia al-Adawiyyah, Muhammad Iqbal, etc.?
Islam teaches us that separation is an illusion of reality and that the external world often leads us astray because it is filled with duality, deception, and lies. The inner world, the world of unity is sought within one's self, and when found, one discovers a portion of him/herself that he/she may have never known existed before. Unity and Universal Love is a beautiful thing, and I encourage everyone to seek it here. If you seek to argue and ridicule my religion, then I have no purpose in speaking, but if you wish to speak maturely and ask questions concerning Islam, then I will be more than happy in helping you establish that unity. We are human beings too, we have dreams and aspirations, we also have families, and we also have Faith. Islam is here to stay.
I trust that you are all mature human beings and understand the importance of unity, peace, and compassion in our world.
Salaam (it means Peace)
~JehanZeb~
The ACLU proves itself a total fraud by fighting for the "civil liberties" of those who would use those civil liberties to deprive everyone else of them.
Once again the American Crazy Lunatics Union beats the drum for the rights of scum to be scum.
The question now is when it will merge with that other alphabet soup outfit called CAIR because from now on Islam will be the ACLU's main client.
~JehanZeb~
You could start by sticking to the topic of the thread.
You will learn about the intolerance of your faith.
JehanZeb,
I wish we could believe you. Maybe you mean what you say, but there is just too much evidence to the contrary. There were many good Germans who lived in Nazi germany, and I don't doubt there are also many good people in Islam.
And then, there is always the concern of Taquiya - lying to lull "kaffirs" into serenity, only to strike when the time is right.
Yes, many of us here are fearful of Islam. But with good reason. Don't discount us as mere "islamophobes" who never read the Koran, or looked at the good and bad sides. Many people here have done so.
In the end, it seems the ultimate goal of Islam is to dominate the entire world. To have the entire human population "submit" to Allah. Is that not ultimate definition of "peace" in Islam? But to the "kaffir" it's not peace, it's obliteration and death. Thus the inevitable and unfortunate conflict which we all, both muslim and non-muslim, seem to be facing.
Perhaps you've been raised with a more moderate Islam, and are a great human being JehanZeb. I would wish nothing more than to claim muslims as my brothers in humanity, and them me. But I don't think that many muslims around the world are like you (or at least, as you appear to be). I pray that I'm wrong. And then, there is the problem of the Islamic scriptures themselves - direct instructions to deceive non-muslims, to kill jews, to dominate and tax other religions. Even a moderate Islam would have difficulty surviving when the texts are what they are... It's a very sad situation.
How did these people get so much power? Who made them the fourth branch of the American government?
That happened when the hippies took over. Piece.
Gerry Adams never killed Americans.
Thank you. Adams, from a group named Ourselves Alone, never implored the subjugation of all peoples everywhere. Moslem activists, working for a group named Surrender, enjoy no such praise.
I addressed my views here because it is the lastest entry on this site and also because more people will read it. I believe I addressed it appropriately since there doesn't seem to be much dialogue going on here.
Maybe you should READ my words, "Credit Man," rather than overlooking the Beauty of Islam which you do not wish to see.
My Faith has taught me tolerance, Love, and peace. What way of life has caused YOU to perceive another person's religion as intolerant?
Aaha! ~JehanZeb~
9:111 “Verily, of the faithful hath God bought their persons and their substance, on condition of Paradise for them in return: on the path of God shall they fight, and slay, and be slain: a
Promise for this is pledged in the Law, and in the Evangel, and in the Koran - …”
Will you slay or be slain?
Tapper,
Thank you for your honest words. I believe you CAN believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, but before you do that, you need to establish that within yourself. Obviously there is a lot going on in the external world, a lot of violence and hatred, innocent people dieing every day, etc. The media likes to paint a very negative image of Islam and Muslim people, as if resisting against invasive and oppressive forces is barbaric behavior. Whatever happened on 9/11 was a tragedy and brought sorrow to all human beings, Muslims included. Imams at my Mosque even stated verses from the Qur'an about how it is forbidden to kill other people. The Prophet, peace be upon him, even said, "Do you not Love your Creator? Love your fellow beings first."
As far as "moderate" Islam goes.. what does that mean? I was born Muslim but my parents weren't strict at all. I believed in God and I knew how to pray and everything, but in my teenage years, I was going into a different direction, I had a very negative outlook on life. I had a very spiritual experience overseas in 2002 that changed my life and turned me towards my faith, Islam. My parents never pressured anything on me, this is something I've embraced with my heart. I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE YOU to reach out to Muslim communities, are you a college student? Attend an MSA meeting for once. If not, try visiting a Mosque. People do it all the time! Do you have any Muslim friends? Sit down with them and watch "The Message" with them, it's the 1979 feature film about Muhammad, peace be upon him, starring Anthony Quinn (he plays the Prophet's Uncle). I did this with my Christian friends and they Loved it.
I'm also an aspiring filmmaker. Last semester, I wrote and directed a short film called "A Flower from the East" which is about the struggles Muslim Americans face in the post 9/11 era. My film professors who are Jewish and Mormon respectively have been very supportive of me speaking out about these issues and have shown the film to their family members. I have been sharing the film with many people, mostly non-Muslims, and it continues to serve as great dialogue.
I invite you to come visit my MSN blog. There were two Christian bloggers who would occasionaly visit my space and criticize Islam, but once we engaged in mature dialogue, they changed their opinions! One of them initially said to "annihilate Islam"! You can read some of my poetry, short stories, spiritual writings, or even my three part short story called "Arsalan and the 72 Virgins". I wrote that story because there are a lot of misconceptions about that, obviously, so I figured, why not talk about these so-called "controversial" subjects and present them in a form of art? I think anyone who is confused about this should read my story. You can also find some very beautiful Islamic paintings on my blog, paintings that you probably have never seen before!
In order to acheive peace, one also needs to have the desire within him/herself to establish that peace. MAJORITY of Muslims are peaceful and Loving human beings (very hospitable too!), just take some time and get to know us. That's all I'm asking!
Salaam :)
~JehanZeb~
visit my blog @ http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com
Creating a website that vilifies Islam - a beautiful and peaceful way of Life
~JehanZeb~ you are off topic as some one has wrote earlier. this website was created to educate us non muslims, and perhaps even muslims about the truth of islam. you may very well be a good person, and if you can allow yourself to cherry pick your islam, and only keep the few peaceful passages good for you. but you see many muslim terrorists can cherry pick the more plentiful violent passages, and go on killing people, and they have had a field day all over the world, from those poor headless Christian girls in Indonesia, to those Buddists in Thailand,Dafur,
and Jewish people on the way to school, and many Muslims on the way to market in Iraq they have all been victims of your islam. so please have patience
and maybe you might want to be truly at peace and leave islam while you still have a head on your shoulders.
~JehanZeb~ My Brother, my friend in peace,
I am man of good will, I wish to understand the words of the Prophet. Please help me!
5:56 “O Believers! take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another’s friends. If any one of you taketh them for his friends, he surely is one of them! God will not guide the evil doers.”
Zena,
With Islam, it helps me truly be at peace with myself. How can you speak about peace when you have this cruel and biased perception of another religion? The Truth is, Zena, is that YOU need to be better educated about Islam, because no enlightened or mature human being on the face of this earth is going to judge or stereotype someone based on his/her religion.
There is no need for separation. The differences we see between religions is, like any other form of division, merely an illusion of the outward reality. We are all like planets in the Universe, and their orbits symbolize the different paths we follow (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.), while the Sun represents the One Ultimate Truth we all strive for. The cause and Source of our existence is Love, and we are all dancing around that Same Source.
Some of us are too absorbed in narrow-mindedness and separation that we forget the purely spiritual foundation of our faiths. Whether you speak of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Buddha (peace upon them all), their experience with the Divine is what unites their Souls. These enlightened human beings shared something in common, they were all revolutionists and fought in the battle against the selfish, material world, in order to bring people to the World of the Unseen.
Those guided well on their paths should not point fingers and criticize another person simply because of he/she is following a different religion. If you have problems with another religion, it means you have problems with YOURSELF. The flaws you see in us, Zena, are merely flaws you see within you. The ambitions of human being is to reach the stage of Expansiveness, the stage of Compassion, the stage of Self-Actualization. When we acheive this, we become All-Loving towards those around us, we become all tolerant and accepting. Open-mindedness is not being exclusive to one faith, but rather it is learning the ability to open your heart and become a Compassionate, Expansive, and all Loving human being. When you understand this, you will discover a portion within yourself that you may have never known existed. There will be no conflict between your beliefs and other people's beliefs anymore.
Remember that you learned this from a Muslim. And remember that Islam is here to stay, and one day you are bound to shake a Muslim's hand, and when you do, I pray that you will discover that Light of unity within and learn that the majority of us are wonderful human beings.
Peace
~JehanZeb~
I saw one of those ACLU spokeswomen on TV last week speaking on behalf of Frere Tariq and his entry to the US. She was the kind of female that would do well under a burka.
Ugly is as ugly does...
One of my recently recorded songs has a line: 'with my Islamic delusion and my portable seclusion, I'm gonna make the camels swing...'
The Muhammedan poster above sez: '...because it is filled with duality, deception, and lies...'
Yes, indeed. You may not agree with the context but Islam is indeed an ideology filled with duality, deception, and lies.
Islamic 'Tolerance' of infidels is hardly tolerance the way we understand tolerance:
http://sheikyermami.com/2006/12/20/tolerance/
And the information from islamic websites is also quite informative, like here:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm
Therefore, Internment & Deportations and disengagement from
your 'religion' is the first step to preserve humanity, freedom and dignity.
Something that is diametrically opposed to your agenda.
Davegreybeard,
Salaam, peace be to you.
Thank you for your question. This is something I discussed when my Christian friend asked me the same question!
Here is my response to him via e-mail, copied and pasted:
Surah 5:51
“You who believe do not take the Jews and Christians as allies: they are allies only to each other. Anyone who takes them as an ally becomes one of them – God does not guide such wrongdoers…”
Many translators have translated the Arabic word “Awliya” as “friends,” but in its usage here, it means “allies,” “protectors,” or “guardians.” Also, this verse refers to those who are against the Muslim camp, which is clarified in the verses till 59. If you read, the Qur’an says to the Muslims, “do not take as allies those who ridicule your religion and make fun of it – whether people who were given Scripture before you, or disbelievers – and be mindful of God if you are true believers. When you make the call to prayer, they ridicule it and make fun of it: this is because they are people who do not reason."
The Qur’an is referring to THOSE Jews and Christians who ridicule and mock Islam, not ALL Jews and Christians. If one surrounds himself around people who ridicule and mock his way of life, he is more vulnerable to behave the same way.. as the saying goes, a man is known by the company he keeps. So again, this is not referring to all of the Jews and Christians.. If you read up on Islamic history, you will learn about the Christian Abyssinian King who gave refuge to the Muslims when Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his followers were being oppressed by the pagan Arabs. Muhammad told his followers that a Christian King would help the Muslims, and thus it was so. The Christian King helped because of how Muslims believed in all the Prophets including and especially Jesus (peace be upon him). You will also learn that Muhammad made peace treaties with many Jewish tribes in Arabia. And as said in the Qur’an, “The Muslim believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians – all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.” (2:62)
~JehanZeb~
p.s. I hope when you called me "friend in peace" that you truly meant it from your heart rather than using it in a mocking way. Regardless, I have Love for you anyway :)
"Many of the faults you see in others, dear reader, are your own nature reflected in them. As the Prophet said, 'The faithful are mirrors to one another."
- Jalaluddin Rumi, 13th Century Islamic poet/mystic.
"My questions to you are: Do you personally know any Muslims? Do you have any Muslim friends? Do you know about the Muslim experience in the post 9/11 America? Have you ever visited a Mosque? Have you ever been to an inter-faith event (e.g. poetry recital)? Have you ever read the Holy Qur'an or any of the other Islamic spiritual texts such as the works of Jalaluddin Rumi or al-Ghazali, Rabia al-Adawiyyah, Muhammad Iqbal, etc.?"
-- from a posting by a Muslim above
The questions are misplaced. Many of the posters at this site have visited those Mosque Outreach exercises in Taqiyya-and-Tu-Quoque. Many have read the Qur'an, but have read and reread it, keeping in mind several things:
1) That about 20% of it makes no sense, even to Muslims who know classical Arabic. See Christoph Luxenberg for one attempt to solve that matter of philology.
2) That the internal contradictions in the Qur'an are resolved through the doctrine of "naskh" or "abrogation," so that, as in the systems of common law, where the doctrine of stare decisis ordinarily holds but later decisions, when different, cancel the effect of earlier ones (e.g., Plessy v. Ferguson is not valid after Brown v. Bd. of Education).
3) That the doctrine of "naskh" allows the so-called Meccan sura, the softer ones, presumably the product of a time when Muhammad still felt the need for support and had not yet become as harsh toward Infidels as he became once he had taken control in Medina (Yathrib), to be cancelled or overrulled or overturned by the much harsher so-called "Medinan" suras.
4) That while there are hundreds of Jihad verses in the Qur'an-- though only 27 appearances of the word "qitaal" or combat, the most dangerous ones, such as Sura 9, are among the very last and hence possess great authority.
5) That in English or French, as Western scholars of Islam familiar with the original texts have noted, the Qur'an's verses are far less harsh than they are in the Arabic. Many of the words involving the treatment to be meted out to Unbelievers, that is Infidels or non-Muslims, are of this kind.
6) That the official Muslim groups tend to distribute the translations that are much milder, and even those used by Muslims, such as that of Yusuf Ali, do not adequately convey the real meaning, but that can be found usually in the notes, and it is important for Infidels to read those Muslim annotations.
7) That the Qur'an by itself does not yield up its full meaning, and the Sunna, that is the customs and practice of Muslims of the time, of Muhammad and the Companions, is the true interpretive aid, the essential means by which obscure meanings are teased out. That is why Muslims so often refer to "Qur'an and Sunna."
8) That Islam is a collectivist faith that does not admit of free exercise of conscious, that is will not permit -- often on pain of death -- individuals from deciding for themselves that they wish to leave Islam, sometimes for another faith, sometimes for no faith at all. That Islma does this makes it akin to other totalitarian belief-systems that do not tolerate anyone from leaving that closed system: in a sense, a Muslim who leaves Islam is treated as a deserter from the army of Islam, just as someone who is persuaded to become a Muslim, even without any real understanding and with very incomplete (often deliberately withheld) knowledge, merely by reciting the single verse of the Shehada, is regarded as a recruit to the army of Islam, someone who has been signed up, rather than someone who has been carefully taught in order to save his individual soul.
9) Yes not only have many of us gone to mosques, but we have made it a point to attend those utterly phony presentations of Islam, in which none of the real questions -- about how Islam divides the world uncompromisingly between Believer and Infidel, and territorially between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb --ever come up.
And of course there is never a discussion of Muhammad, that is of the killings of Abu Akaf and Asma bint Marwan, the decapitation of the bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, the attack on the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khaybar Oasis, the tale of little Aisha, and so much else.
In other words, it makes no sense whatsoever, given the smooth nonsense presented, for Infidels to attend any Muslim event without having thoroughly prepared themselves by learning about Islam, by reading the immutable texts of Islam, by talking to those who have grown up in Islam and left it, or those who, as Infidels, grew up in lands dominated by Islam (such as Hindus from Bali or Bangladesh, Christians from Egypt or Iraq or Pakistan, Jews from Yemen or Egypt or Syria, Zoroastrians -- what few are left -- who have escaped from Iran, and so on). One can expect only apologetics from Muslims --that is what our experience, individual and collective, demonstrates again and again. One can only take so much nonsense and lies, before even the most naive start to have things begin to make sense, for them to figure the whole thing out.
You offer a list of all the silliest things. This is a pedagogic site. It is a site devoted to presenting all kinds of material about Islamic behavior and Islamic doctrine, and showing their connection. And it is also devoted to revealling the ways in which Infidels, in and out of the West, do or do not exhibit the traditional behavior of dhimmis, that is those non-Muslims under Islam who were allowed to stay alive, and even to practice, within severe limits, their non-Muslim religions, but were subject to a host of economic, political, legal, and social disabilitites that together amounted to a permanent condition of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity.
In conclusion, let me ask you a few questions.
Have you ever compared the treatment, meted out over the past 1350 years, in all the lands conquered by Islam, toward the indigenous non-Muslims, with the way in which Muslims have been received, and allowed to settle deep behind what they themselves are taught to regard as enemy lines?
Have you ever given the slightest thought to the possibility that the belief-system of Islam, with its Total Regulation of Life and Complete Explanation of the Universe, was essentially akin to a totalitarian doctrine?
Have you ever wondered about, or gone to hear, or read the books of, the many brilliant and articulate apostates from Islam, including but not limited to, Ibn Warraq ("Why I Am Not a Muslim"), Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Anwar Shaikh ("Islam the Arab National Religion"), and many others, who are clearly the most impressive people born into Islam, thoughtful, articulate, coherent -- and being joined by other thoughtful, articulate, coherent people who were through no fault of their own born into Islam (and in the case of, say, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Indian Muslims, clearly are the descendants of Hindus, or in some cases Buddhists, who were forcibly converted, and in the case of many North African "Arabs" in fact the descendants of the indigenous Berbers whose own language and culture have been under Arab assault) and in the case of Iranian Muslims, clearly the descendants of the Zoroastrians whose last adherents are no so oppressed in Iran, and in the case of the Middle East, full of people who call themselves "Muslim Arabs" but of course must be the descendants, even in parts of the Jazirat al-Arab, of the original pagans, Christians, and Jews. It might be fun to do some DNA testing.
Have you read the Bible? Have you gone to a church merely to observe Christian worship? What do you know about the field of comparative religion? And would you allow other Muslims, such as sibilings or children, to freely visit churchs and synagogues and Hindu temples, and read the holy books?
Tell us all about it.
Good night for now,
Insha'Allah (God willing) we will talk again soon.
Take good care everyone. I leave you with a beautiful poem from Jalaluddin Rumi, the 13th Century Muslim mystic.
THROUGH LOVE all that is bitter will sweet
Through Love all pain will turn to medicine.
Through Love the dead will all become alive.
Through Love the king will turn into a slave!
- Jalaluddin Rumi
JehanZeb
Spare us the taqiyya - we aren't some ignorami who know nothing about Islam: indeed, many of us know one or more of the following:
- Islamic history
- Islamic theology
- Islamic law
- The history of Mohammed
Also, where did you get that Islam is followed by 'billions'? When you have only 1, you don't add an 's' after the word. Besides, if 1 billion people thought the Nazis were okay, would they be? Then how does there being 1b Muslims either butress or rebut the point about whether or not Islam is good or bad?Besides, as Davegraybeard noted above, your attempt to convince us of your bonafides, or at least Islam's bonafindes, are complicated somewhat by the following verses in the Quran:
~JehanZeb~. l am a Christian living in the West, and we have freedom of speech, and if l want to say that islam is cult of death, and that mohummud was a child rapist, and murderer, that is my right to say what l want. you may not agree with it, but in the West we have freedoms. islam allows no one to think freely, and to make up our minds. l say your mohummad was a false prophet, and most likely a work of the devil. so please leave the platitudes to yourself, l see the results of the your islamist terrorists, and you need to eduacte those monsters not to kill. so spend your time spreading your peace and love with those islamist terrorist who are killing, heheading.. that is real world of islam.
That's not an answer. Very sweet, Rumi. Good for the college dorm room. Or maybe high school, taking the place of Siddhartha and Cat's Cradle and Jonathan Livingston Seagull. But as an answer to the question "what is Islam all about" and what do such words as "Jihad" and "dhimmi" and "Jizyah" and "Jaish" and "Hizb" all mean, it just won't do.
Not now. Not ever again. Those innocent days, those Summer-of-Love days, are over.
The Muhammedan poster sez:
'The Christian King helped because of how Muslims believed in all the Prophets including and especially Jesus...'
But he doesn't tell us how the Christian King ended up. Neither does he tell us why Muahmmedans burn churches from Sulawesi to Mindanao and from Bosnia to Nigeria.
Neither would Christians agree that Jesus was just another 'prophet'- perhaps you can tell us why the Christans of Bethlehem are leaving in droves and why the Copts in Egypt are constantly under siege...? Where are the Christians of Iraq and Iran?
'You will also learn that Muhammad made peace treaties with many Jewish tribes in Arabia. '
Right! What happened to these Jewish tribes? Where are the Quorayza Jews today?
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Authors/Arlandson/qurayza_jews.htm
Zena,
Sure you have the right to say whatever you want and believe those things, but what do those things do to your soul? It makes you an ignorant person, does it not? For example, you said Muslims cannot think for themselves. What makes you think so? Do you know me? Do you know any Muslims?
I share this story with all of you. Please read it as I have read your comments (I will respond to each of them as best I can since there is an overwhelming number of them, plus, I need to wake up early in the morning and it's almost 2 AM now!)
As for the one who keeps calling me a "Mohamadan", I'm confident to say that if he/she met me in person, he/she will not have the courage to say such a thing to my face. In the way of God, I express Love to you and greet you in peace.
I am a human being, a servant of God, and I ask for you to treat me as your brother - This, *I* have the courage to say in person to you.
The True Religion
by JehanZeb
Somewhere along the fascinating landscapes of Konya lived the best of friends: Harun and Girgis. Fellow townspeople always marveled at how similar they were in both appearance and interest. Many felt they were destined to become the greatest philosophers of their time. “I swear upon the Stars, they are brothers and reflections of each other!” some would exclaim. “Indeed, they shall become the wisest of men!” said others. As gleeful children, they ran across the lush fields, adored the wondrous creatures of the earth, and enjoyed skipping rocks across the majestic river.
There was one difference however that existed within this special friendship. Unlike Harun, Girgis was not a Muslim, but a Christian. Raised as devout believers in their respective faiths, religion never seemed to be a problem in their early childhood. Once, they spoke of it. “Harun my friend,” Girgis would say, “tell me what makes Islam different from Christianity?”
Harun thought hard as he skipped a rock across the pure waters. “I don’t know, dear Girgis,” he said, “What makes Christianity different from Islam?”
Girgis did not know what to say either. “We both believe in God,” he said.
“Then we’ll both go to Heaven,” Harun said with a smile. Girgis nodded and returned a smile. They both turned back to the soothing river and carried on their play.
And the years passed joyfully until one day, when Harun and Girgis reached their mid-teens, the subject of religion arose again.
“Dearest Girgis,” Harun started, “Why do you believe Jesus is the son of God when God cannot have any sons or daughters?”
“Harun, good friend,” Girgis answered compassionately, “It is written in the New Testament and it is what I believe. Why do you believe Muhammad is a Prophet of God when God already sent his son to save us?”
“It is written in the Holy Qur’an and it is what I believe, Girgis,” Harun replied.
They sat on a hill and ate the fresh fruit they plucked from the trees. “At least we believe in God,” Girgis said.
“Yes,” Harun said and smiled.
And once again, the years passed and the days were filled with blessed friendship. They were at the end of their teenage years when, one afternoon, Harun asked Girgis an honest question.
“O Girgis, greatest of friends, if there is one thing you could change about me, what would it be?”
Girgis answered: “Harun, you are the best friend I have ever had in this world, but if I could change one thing about you, I would have you stop believing what you believe and start believing in what I believe.”
Harun was deeply offended and hurt by Girgis’ words. “I will never change my religion just because you want me to,” he exclaimed. “You should become a Muslim and stop believing in things that will take you to hell!”
“If you don’t follow Jesus, then you will go to hell!” Girgis argued back.
The two of them argued for the first time. They were so angry and hurt by one another that they ran home and wept. They refused to talk or see each other for weeks. In their time apart, they continued their intensive studies on their respective faiths. As Harun learned more and realized that Islam was a compassionate and tolerant religion, he felt bad for what happened between him and his dear Christian friend. As Girgis learned about the peaceful and loving character of Jesus, he felt bad for arguing with his special Muslim friend.
In their mid-twenties, they reunited and embraced merrily. They apologized to each other for their behavior in the past, and they went to their favorite site, the river, and spoke of their progression in life. They spoke of the women they were falling in Love with, they spoke of their dreams and ambitions, and they recited their own poetry to one another. As they laughed and shared ideas, they thanked God for bringing them close once again.
But as they grew older, they hardly had time to see each other. Harun was happily married, had children of his own, and preached at the Mosque. Girgis was married as well and had children, and preached at the Church. So suddenly, news broke out that a titanic war between Christians and Muslims had erupted. There was immense panic among the citizens, a diverse population of Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and they became divided. Harun and Girgis – two successful and bearded men – decided to meet and discuss how they should preach peace and understanding.
The plan did not go well. Like in the past, the two argued about which religion was right. “The Christians are fighting to save you and your people, Harun!” Girgis said angrily.
“We are not infidels! You and your people have hated us since the advent of Islam!” Harun shouted.
“We are not the same, Harun! We don’t believe in the same God,” Girgis said.
“What do you mean?” Harun asked, confused.
“The True Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ, not ‘Allah’.”
“That’s outrageous! How can the Prophet Jesus be God? You will roast in Hell for believing this, Girgis!” Harun said.
“Your Prophet Muhammad was possessed by demons!”
The two wrestled each other violently and exchanged fierce punches, cursing and screaming at each other. “Infidel!” “Demon worshipper!” “Heathen!” “Barbarian!”
Both of them could not continue fighting. They were battered, bruised, bleeding, and weeping. “All you have to do is believe what I believe, Harun!” Girgis shouted. “I will always be a Muslim, Girgis! And you should believe in Islam if you truly Love our friendship!” Girgis wept, “Then we are not friends!” Tears ran down Harun’s face as the both of them limped away and back to their homes.
When both of them returned to their homes, they rushed into prayer. Girgis went to a hill, fell to his knees, and held his cross necklace. “O Heavenly Father, I pray that Harun will believe what I believe so that he will be saved from the burning fire of Satan. I pray that Harun will become a Christian.”
Harun set his prayer carpet on top of a hill and prayed. “O Merciful Allah, I pray that Girgis will find the truth and be saved from the scorching fire of Satan. I pray that Girgis will become a Muslim.”
“O God, hear me, O God, answer my prayers” they both pleaded to the Lord of Heaven.
And just then, a miracle revealed itself right before their eyes. A wavy and translucent portal immediately was projected in front of them, and they saw each other praying on a hill. It was as if they were looking into a mirror.
Suddenly, a hooded and beautifully-faced man dressed in black emerged out of the portal. Though some of his hair was covered, Girgis and Harun were both stunned at the beauty of the man’s face; it shined like the moon and his eyes glittered like stars. He was one man, but acted as two. He snatched the cross necklace away from Girgis and then pulled the prayer rug from underneath Harun.
In a voice that was like a song, the luminous-faced man said, “Your prayers mean nothing. You have not prayed for anyone except for your own selfish hearts. You have forgotten all that you have learned about Love and unity, and instead chose the path of separation. Shame on both of you for allowing a difference in religion to end the beautiful friendship you once had.”
The mysterious man then threw the cross necklace and prayer mat on the hill and set them on fire. Before Girgis and Harun could react, the man miraculously walked into the blazing flame and vanished with the fire.
The End
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast in the field:
THROUGH LOVE all that is bitter will sweet
Through Love all pain will turn to medicine.
Through Love the dead will all become alive.
Through Love the king will turn into a slave!
And the truth shall set you free. Thanks Hugh.
Muhammedan L.O.V.E.- Too bad there's none in the Koran....
JehanZeb
With Islam, it helps me truly be at peace with myself. How can you speak about peace when you have this cruel and biased perception of another religion? The Truth is, Zena, is that YOU need to be better educated about Islam, because no enlightened or mature human being on the face of this earth is going to judge or stereotype someone based on his/her religion.
JehanZeb, most people who post at jihad/dhimmiwatch are educated on islam, which is why they make the so-called “cruel” and “biased” comments that they do.
And knowing what we know about islam: e.g. its intolerance towards non-muslims, the sanctification of enslavement, rape, and murder of non-muslims, the doctrine of abrogation which voids all the peaceful verses you and other “moderate” muslims have cherry picked, taqqiya and kitman; how can you expect us to readily and wholly embrace anyone who identifies him/herself as a muslim?
I know most muslims do not wage violent jihad against infidels, which is actually contrary to what muhammad said, but it would be a mistake to say that their lack of participation in jihad makes them peaceful. It would be safe to say double-digit percentages of non-jihad waging muslims still have, to varying degrees, bigoted attitudes and opinions of non-muslims.
So, unfortunately, whenever dealing with muslims, you need to verify their intentions before you can trust them. But even then with taqqiya and kitman, you cannot take a muslims word for anything.
I wish it weren’t like that, but I will never apologize for being careful for my brethren, kin, friends, or country.
'...calling me a "Mohamadan", I'm confident to say that if he/she met me in person, he/she will not have the courage to say such a thing to my face...'
Muhammedans worship Muhammed. 'Allah'- or Al-ilha, the pagan moon-god of the ancient desert Arabs is just an excuse. Muhammed could hardly ask his followers to worship him directly. He needed something bigger. But the cult of Muahmmedanism with a 5 gazillion followers (who 'are here to stay') entirely revolves around Muahmmad.
Remember Koran rage? Remember cartoon rage? How many imams have we seen whinnging and whining that 'they love their profit more than they love their own children'- what is that if not Muhammed worship?
Don't pretend you are a Buddhist. Don't pretend you are a flower power child: You are a slave of Allah and if you are a true believer you are to kill and die for Allah.
End of story.
It is every infidels duty and absolute right of self-preservation to stop the spread of your ideology, regardless of how much lipstick you put on that pig called Islam....
since when does the Bill of Rights protect foreign advesaries?
~JehanZeb~ Brother in peace,
I worship the ONE TRUE GOD. I am NOT a man of THE BOOK. Join me if you wish or worship as you wish, but you must lay down the SWORD of Islam - or PERISH, my friend.
Excuse me.. even Nazis have standards after all.. just kidding.
Is it in bad taste for a German to make this joke?
The truth hurts us all. I know it doesn't hurt them. They merely use the Truth we speak to hurt us via the Fifth Column within our midst. You know who I mean with "They".
I will say one thing.. if it weren't for that abominable Hitler we all wouldn't be in this horrible mess we find ourselves in..
Hitler created Nazi Germany and thus widened the rift among us Europeans within and Americans, Australians and Canadians.
The enemy is quite cunning at exploiting this rift for its purposes. You MUST stop seeing Germans as your enmies. There are a quite large number of us who regret our past crimes/history and we see ourselves as part of the anti-islamic front.. in league with our Anglo-Saxon cousins and our former Jewish compatriots manfested in the State of Israel.
See websites like politicallyincorrect.de, nebeldeutsch.de, akte-islam and so many others. We fly Israeli and American flags on these sites to proclaim our common cause. We know what our nation wrought upon Europe and the World - and the Jewish Nation/diaspora is the greatest evil ever. But now we are where we are and we are ON YOUR SIDE, Damn it!!
We DEPLORE and we deeply DESPISE our own internal "anti-zionist" speak anti-Semitic Left - the very same that exists in all of our Western Lands.
My point is that we are no longer divided by nation but rather by ideology. I find myself much more in support and ideological affinity with any Western Nationalist movement of any Nation than for example with Germans or Americans [or any others] who identify with the sell-out International Left.
The German Left has no problems finding allies among the Canadian and the French Left.. or the Australian or the American Left.. all of whom are enablers and supporters of "Palestinians" and world-wide jihad.
The great mistake we make as the "right" is to continue to stay divided among these former national lines.
International Socialism and Jihad is without borders and frontiers. We Traditionalists have so much more in common than what divides us yet we continue to indulge in counter-productive and in effect harmfull rhetoric against one another.
International Capital as represented by our ruling classes like the Bushes and the Blairs is as much our enemy as is the unholy coalition of Socialists worldwide.. They meet in Brazil and in Venezuela.. They are Italians and they are Dutch.. and they pursue their common goals free of national prejudice.. because their ideology rejects the traditional nation-state and the culture which it represents.
Therefore creating the vacuum that the virus of islam needs for its promulgation among us.
Yet on our side the British Nationalists for example see Germans and Americans and French with great apprehension and suspicion.. and vice versa.. each of us preferring to stay mired in past resentment and prejudice and in de facto a state of "international apartheid".
I would like to state that in my travels throughout Europe I have encountered so many people from all the different countries of Europe and I just cannot understand why we cannot appreciate our both common and varied History and respect one another in a spirit of Solidarity and Common Progeny.
I have found wonderful acceptance among French and Spaniards.. Englishmen and Greeks.. even Argentininians and Mexicans.. and many other nationals - all of whom expressed great respect for the positive things that my country has given the world. These are people who met with me in mutual friendship and respect. And I for one LOVE the fact that when I go to England for example that I am in ENGLAND.. so I'll drink their warm beer and learn to enjoy it.
I was in Italy in 1982 when we lost the World Cup Final against them in Spain and I partied with them nonetheless and I have to say they really knew my pain and they really tried to cheer me up and they appreciated that I was bravely partying on with them while I could barely hold back my tears.
We are all in this together, people!!
I was 100% for England when Argentina tried to steal their Falklands Islands and I even said so to my Argntine friends whom I knew at the time. And unlike islamo-fascists they accepted that this is my point of view.. like I told them I am not an Englishman, but I support England's right to defend what is theirs. And these Argentines remained my friends.
So what I am saying.. let us strengthen our ties.
We have so much more in common that what divides us. I've dated Israeli women who had served in the IDF and know their stories.. I've even met Mossad guys at a raucously drunken party in Manhattan one night and some of what they told me was bone-chilling. What warmed my heart was that they were SO glad to hear my emphatic support of Israel and my deep regret that my government failed to protect and rescue the Israeli Athletes at the 1974 Olympics. I wasn't paying lip service. They could see my anger at the fact that these terrorists cynically used the fact that the Games were being held on German Ground as a means to inflict the utmost of pain to the Nation of Israel. To this day I cannot understand why what these terrorists did by being the very first ever to attack athletes during the Games which were meant to be played peacefully among all nations regardless of their conflicts was not met with greater scorn by my own people. i hang my head in shame that these beasts were let go only 15 months later by my own government.
The Mossad men i was drinking with that night hadn't asked me to volunteer anything in form of contrition or whatever but when I shared these feelings with them they were definitely touched and they were very very kind to me the rest of the night.
In my mind that should have been understood and I have to add that living in America makes it more easy for me to work through some of these things.
Germans as a lot aren't quite adept at breaking out and sharing their feeings openly as I was able to but I do know that even in this current climate of leftist media brainwashing and manipulation I guarantee you that we, too have a strong if mostly silent majority who know right from wrong.
I've also made friends with numerous Poles and Ukranians in my many years of living in New York City and we have had some very straight-forward discussions of History.. and been able to share a few laughs about how stupid we all have been!
They told me German jokes and I told them jokes we have about them and we all laughed and bought one another drinks..
In fact i now feel the Poles are probably the most sensible of all Europeans who know how to maintain their traditions and their national character without seeming chauvinistic about it. I even said many times please remember me when islam takes over Germany so I can get asylum in Poland. I'll be glad to learn your language and fit in.. just please don't make me grow a beard and pray to meka five times a day! They LAUGH at that one!!!
We must do much more to fix divisions between Germany and Britain than with Poland and the other Slavic countries who have been at odds with Germany for centuries..
The Poles I met were delighted when I told them of my admiration of Jan Sobieski and his ability to raise an army that inckuded Teutonic Knights to fight the turkish aggression against Vienna. It was Sobieski who realized the strategic importance of Vienna and it was he who rallied diverse factions within Europe to beat back this enemy.
So they realized that not all Germans look down on them and think they can't fight and so on.. If it hadn't been for Sobieski we may never even have seen Hitler invading their lands.
Same for the brave Frenchman Martell aka Charles the Hammer who beat back islam at the Battle of Tours.
ALL of us know how to fight.. for better or for worse..
Today we should be able to stand and fight as ONE while appreciating and valueing our distinct yet intrinsically common culture[s].
There are indeed so many Germans who strongly support Israel and denounce our government's duplicity with their enemies. We know right from wrong when it would be so much easier to simply go along with the international-capitalist and the international-socialist mainstream in denial of our deeply-held ideals. We need to be present and welcomed in the nascent coalition which is beginning to form against the islamization of all of our lands.
I see England as Holy English Soil which is being defiled and degraded daily by the shock troops of islam and i am not the only one who'd give his life fighting for/in England should the day ever come.
Same goes for France and Poland and Italy and Spain.. Belgium and Holland.. and Switzerland and any whom I have failed to mention directly by name. Fighting for you means fighting for us all.
What makes Europe great is that i can go to another country and be immersed in another way of life - eat their foods.. sample their arts and architecture.. and knowing they share these things with me in mutual friendship.
We have had too much bloodshed between us - so what have we learned?
Let us not hand victory to the stateless International Left and their enablement of the islamist hordes who are now invading us all! What happens today in London and in Madird and in Oslo and in Malmø concerns us all.
We all have the right to our individuality and our National Character and there is no reason why this should keep us apart any longer!
I love being in England and in France and doing as they do and sharing their sports and their activities. And I am as concerned about maintaining their uniqueness as much as I am about maintaining our own.
We who relish our traditions have no reason to impose on our brothers. We all have found our place. Let us not allow the International Left and their islamic brood to tear us all down!
In the same vein.. we shall NOT turn against our American and Canadian and our Australian Breththren regardless of what the propaganda machine churns out. I hope to see the day when we treat the Russian People as one of our own and extend our hand to them. Presently Russia finds herself in a vice grip of hostility form both Western interests and islamic jihad. Britons and Americans in particular ought to remind themselves of Russia's sacrifice and heroism they showed in both World Wars. Germans should appreciate our many cultural ties to Russia which date centuries back. Things I might never have learned if I hadn't come to New York where I had opportunity to meet so many people on "neutral ground".
A Europe [and Western World as a whole] divided is bound to fall. Patriots of all our nations must stand together free of past chauvinisms and in mutual respect if we are to preserve the values we hold most dear.
Let us hope for all our sake that one day History will tell that the enemy we met was ourselves and we faced him rather than that we finally fell to our common enemy known as islam.
This Ramadan guy is just a symptom of an internal disease. The real problem is not Ramadan and other Islamists, but the America-hating American groups like the ACLU, the academia, etc.
JehanZeb
I may not be a great scholarly intellectual who will read verses to prove his point or write 13th century poems.I see things as they happen in front of me and I hear what I hear and then base my decision on it.
And from what I see and hear :
Only Islam today is seen as violent religion indulging in bombings ,wars ,killing in Middle east, Asia ,America and Europe(oops eurabia).Only Islam seems to be having a problem with all other religions ,wherever there is a sizeable number of Muslims.
Islam has problems with the
1) Western way of life i.e Christianity,
2) Hindues of India
3) Budhhists of Thailand
4) And of course Jews.
Where as NO OTHER religion has problems amongst themselves ,that justify killings of innoncents. In other words the hindus-jews coexist, the christians-jews co-exist , the christian-hindus co-exist .In short each other religion seems to coexist with each other. Only Islam seem to have a problem with everyone and anyone.
But Islam not only refuses to integrate but also tries to dominate.
An classic example throughout the world is the chinese and hindu immigrants. They have migrated to many places ,but have we ever seen any native complaint about them that they have not integrated.
Have we ever seen chinese/hindu rallies protesting of preaching jihad aginst their adapted countries.
But we surely have seen 9-11, Madrid bombings, London bombings. A mere cartoon invoked millions of violent protests.
This clearly gives a picture of violence within the culture and religion.
Maybe you are not one of those Islamic guys who preach violence --- but you don't seem to oppose it either i.e if you find it wrong.
If you really feel they are a few misguided people damaging the name of your religion,why don't you try to correct them?
On the contrary you prefer to teach us that it is not a violent religion.
Would it not be easier for you to correct the misguided minority (as claimed) rather then try show us majority that we have a incorrect impression about Islam.
If you teach your own Islamic brothers ,the so called peaceful side,not to indulge in this kind of hatred and violence,then obviously no one is gonna hate Islam and it will be far more easier task for you to convince your own people.Am I right?
But I am sure that despite what you preach about your own religion,you very well know that you yourself will be beheaded by your own religious people because that what Islam says -----that kill all people( muslims or non muslims who dare speak against Allah).
If your beliefs about your religion are really so strong,why don't you stand up and try to correct your own people and ask them not to preach or indulge in violence and tell them your 13th century Love poem.
You will get your answer from your own people ,wether Islam is peaceful or not.
And if you are still alive after you have told them what you tell us ,then we will hail you as the greatest person on earth,who avoided an impending world war 3 and you will be forever be remembered in history.
But deep in your heart,you know the true nature of your Islam where your freedom of expression will be rewarded to you ,with your own beheaded head in your own hands.
JehanZeb,
You didn't answer Hugh's questions.
Have you read the Bible?
Have you gone to a church to observe Christian worship?
or a synagogue to observe Jewish worship?
or a Hindu temple?
Islam, something profoundly evil masquerading as something profoundly holy. JehanZeb, you and a billion other people have been taken in by the lie that is islam.
One more comment.. More than one Jewish person I've met Stateside has made the comment that Germany/Europe traded six million mostly productive Citizens for 20 million uncivilized barbarians.
Their Sarcasm is completely justified.
The resulting chaos however does noone any good.
Which brings me back to my original thesis that Adolf Hitler is still working from his "grave" [not that he has one] as THE main enabler of worldwide jihad. The International Left has internalized the "victimhood" of the Arabs/moslems in the face of Israeli [Jewish] success on all fronts in the "heartland" of the "umma".
For them Israel and her technological and military success represents the ultimate humiliation of the "victims-du-jour" namely the Arabs/moslems.
In the eyes of the International Left Israel represents The hated West which - instead of being seen as prevailing against all odds - is an "imperialist" power representative of the very Capitalism they seek to defeat at home.
Especially in Europe media jobs once they are attained are be wrought with great privilege and comforts [And I know I have worked in German televison production]. It is rather easy to lose touch with "the base" whose financial contributions are responsible for sustaining one's job.
Both Germany and England still have a system that requires the payment of a monthly licensing fee for anyone who owns a radio or a televison set. Obviously this is in direct conflict with a market-oriented approach. I hate commercials as much as anyone but I see no reason whatsoever why a person who has purchased a radio or television receiver should be subject to a monthly TAX for simply owning such a piece of equipment.
How is this different from the Nazis who made sales of radios able to receive broadcasts from England or anywhere else illegal? They wanted to ensure that Germans only heard Nazi broadcasts. Anyoone who "hacked" their "Volksempfänger" ie. "Peoples' receiver" to hear what was broadcast from say England or France or whatever was thrown in jail or worse. What makes this system of coerced subsidy of state propaganda like BBC or WDR/ADR any different from the totalitarian approach that the Nazis implemented? If anything this present system is even more insidious and ethically intenable. People should not be forced to pay for the dissemination of political views of any kind whatsoever. Why should we be made to pay for government propaganda?
JehanZeb:
Why don't you spend your time trying to convince your fellow Islamists that Islam is a religion of peace, instead of wasting our time.
How many Muslims in the ME and elsewhere believe that appostates should be killed? 30%? 50%? 70%?
I can tell you that among Catholics, the percentage is somewhere around 0.00000001%
I live near Dearborn Michigan. I know plenty of Muslims. My parents grew up in Poland and knew plenty of Germans before the war as well. Lots of friendships all around, but when the fighting started, the cross-cultural friendships didn't mean much.
As long as the % of Muslims citing the Koran to justify violence exceeds the % of Christians citing the New Testament to justify violence by 1,000 fold----the burden of proof is on you, not us.
Hopefully, some day, Islam will join them. ALONE!
During the Cold War there were immigration restrictions on Communists because it was presumed that they advocated the violent overthrow of the US government. This is along the same lines.
Has there been advocacy of violence against Americans, or for the overthrow of the goverment, or is this guy merely espousing an unpopular ideology?
What torques me even more than the legality, is the strange attraction that academia has for such pernicious ideologues. Remember all the speaking invitations at elite schools to Iran's Khatami. I think that mixed in with the intellectual curiosity, there's admiration, which makes me lose respect for those "scholars".
jehanzeb is a typical islamic deceiver who follows the prophet of terror-mohammed who himself was a liar and was the first terrorist born in the world ,much before bin laden.ACLU and other left wing organizations have a single aim of defeating america which their cousins communists could not achieve staring right from the date of birth of communism.the defeatist ideology of leftist/communist/socialist/liberal combined with the death cult of islam found by prophet of terror -mohammed has made the world a dangerous place to live in for us infidels.we infidels not only have to fight islam but their supporters living in infidel world i.e socialist,leftist,liberal,communist combine who form the enemy within and the threat to infidels and on top of it are the big rascals china and russia with nuclear bombs.
Every one of the raped and enslaved women, the beaten and raped children, the victims of bombings and burnings and whippings and hangings and stonings all in the name and word of Allah, every one of them stand in testimony against JehanZeb's smug inner peace and sanctimonious outer deception.
How Islam produces shells out of men.
The manner in which you convey your opinions about Islam is not only uneducated, but also very offensive and arguably prejudice.
And skunks like you always seem to live in Europe and the United States. Not in your Islamic paradises. Why is that? Prejudiced? You would love to get laws passed everywhere in Europe and USA and Canada and Australia that would make it unlawful to criticize Islam and your evil false prophet. That's what you will push for.
Muhammad is the last man any human being should emulate. We aren't uneducated. WE are very well educated about the evil Koran and the murderous Muhammad. You are the stupid fool who emulates this evil Muhammad. Only "uneducated" people will do such a thing
J Sobieski
JehanZeb:Why don't you spend your time trying to convince your fellow Islamists that Islam is a religion of peace, instead of wasting our time.
The last thing he'll do is preach this way in a Muslim country. Undoubtedly he lives comfortably in the West where he can spin his idle fantasies about a peaceful prophet and a mythical Islam that never was and never will be.
My own bet is he's honest. Not a deceiver. Just a Muslim space case (pot head maybe) with all that "religion of peace" horse shit. But the Jihadists and Muslim irredentists will use such morons to pave the way for more immigration into the West and to give Islam a peaceful burnish to fool the intellectually lazy and the liberals. He's useful tool (idiot) to the Muslim supremacists
We're always the prejudiced ones, because we don't want to live under a totalitarian system that is as embarrassingly backwards as it is brutal? Nonsense! Read what Hirsi Ali says in her book "Infidel" about the way Muslims behaved who were given refugee status and support from the government when she first moved to Holland:
'All this time, I had mostly avoided other Somalis. Even when we were still living in the asylum center, I hadn't had much fun with them. Everyone who hung out in Hasna's caravan seemed to spend all their time complaining, especially the people who lived outside the asylum center, who had been in Holland for years and were simply visiting. These Somalis weren't integrating into Dutch society. They weren't working. They had nothing to do but hang about the asylum center and cadge meals.
We were all facing the same confusion. We had always been sure that we, Muslims and Somalis, were superior to unbelievers, and here we were, not superior at all. In day-to-day life we didn't know how the cash machines worked or that you had to push a button to order the bus to stop...It was embarassing.
Many people withdrew from such embarassment into an enclave of shared Somaliness. Their reacton was to create a fantasy that they as Somalis knew better about everything than these inferior white people. "You don't need to teach me how to use a thermometer, our Somali thermometers are much more advanced"--that kind of attitude. "Hios breath smells of pig. He's only a bus driver. How dare he think he can tell me how to behave."
It irritated me now when Somalis who had lived in Holland for a long time complained that they were offered only lowly jobs. They wanted honorable professions: airline pilot, lawyer. When I pointed out that they had no qualifications for such work, their attitude was that everything was Holland's fault. The Europeans had colonized Somalia, which was why we had no qualifications and were in this mess to begin with. I thought that ws so clearly nonsense.
It was the same defensive, arrogant attitude that I had often seen among people from rural areas who emigrated to the city, whether Mogadishu or Nairobi. Here in Holland tha claim was always that we were held back by racism. Everyone seemed to be in a constant simmer of anger about how we were descriminated against because we were black. If a shopkeeper wouldn't bargain over the price of a T-shirt, Yasmin said there were special discount prices only for white people. She and Hasna told me they didn't bother paying for buses; they just invented appointments in town, and if the refugee office didn't give them a ticket they said they were being racist.
"If you tell a Dutch person it's rascist he will give you whatever you want," Hasna once told me with satisfaction.
Somali young men constantly approached me on the street as if they had some kind of right to me.They made obscene suggestions; to them I was obviously immoral, and therefore available. Somali women always tried to wheedle money out of me. I didn't give it them. I used to say, "Why should I"? I thought if they needed more money they could do factory work, too.
I felt embarassed and even let down by the way so many Somalis accepted welfare money and then turned on the society that gave it to them. There was still a lot of clan feeling in me; I felt somehow responsible for their actions. I didn't like how they denied misdeeds, even if they were caught red-handed. I didn't like how they boasted, or the myths and transparently false conspiracy theories they propagated. I didn't like the endless gossiping or the constant complaints that they were victims of external factors. Somalis never said "Sorry" or "I made a mistake" or "I don't know": they invented escuses. All these group strategies to avoid confronting reality depressed me.
The relationship between Yasmin (Hirsi Alis' roommate) and me began deteriorating. One night she walked out. I didn't realize she was gone till two days later, not until I found my bank card and my A-status refugeepapers were missing. She had just given me three hundred guilders for the month's rent, and that was gone, too. A few days later I got a letter from her. She said she was in Italy, but the letter was postmarked Denmark. She said she was sorry, and she hadn't used the bank card; the three hundred guilders wasn't really stealing because it was hers, She said she was lonely, and hated living in Holland. She said the phone bill might be high, but she had needed her family.
About a month later I received a 2,500-guilder phone bill and went berserk. I was beyond bankrupt. Johann helped me call the phone company. They sent me a detailed bill, and it was Australia, Canada, Kenya, Somalia--I had no idea Yasmin knew so many people. Johanna said, "Take Yasmin's letter to her social worker, because it proves that she made all these calls, and they will lokk after the bill." I did, and Yasmin's social work agency paid about two thousand guilders."
I contrast, Hirsi Ali talks about the Dutch people and their sytems. She talks about the cleanliness, the order, the punctuality, and how different this was from the places she grew up in Nairobi, Somalia, Saudi Arabia. She talked about the contrast in how people treated one another, how the children of the Dutch were taught to think for themselves and their attitudes towards members of the opposite sex. She marvelled at how men and women couls sit together with women wearing regular clothing but men not seeming to notice and certainll not sexually attacking women because of it. She saw a people willing to help their neighbor, people who respected others and went out of their way to help those less fortunate than themselves. She also realized that the opportunity to get a free education and to better herself, after she had narrowly escaped being condemned to an arranged marriage because she had the sense to bolt and make her way to a free country, was something to be grateful for.
So much for love and peace and the superiority of the Muslim mindset. So much for Muslims moving into a society and making it better. If that makes me "uneducated, but also very offensive and arguably prejudice", so be it.
But it also makes JehanZeb a liar.
I just read everyone's posts and I think it's safe to conclude that most of you are sick and disturbing human beings. Take a look at yourselves, look at what you wrote, everything from the lies to the racial slurs, is this the type of world you want to live in?
As for someone accusing me of being a "pot head" - because of Islam, I have not and NEVER WILL touch a drug in my life. The Truth is, you people don't want to see Beauty and Peace in Islam, which is why you continue to insult me. You are SEEING something in my comments that are not there.
Hugh asked me if I have ever read the Bible or attended a Church. Yes, I have read the Bible, not in its entirety, but I'm getting there. I've read the Old Testament and a lot of the New Testament, I own a few copies of each of them. My Christian friends and I swapped Bibles/Qur'ans. I have also been to Churches, both Protestant and Catholic ones. I have had my friends come to my Mosque as well and they found it to be a very educational experience.
You people are sick with your "Leave Islam or Perish" mentality. I pray one day that the Light of Love will shine into your eyes. Do you think God likes it when people insult each other, especially if they use racial slurs? I view your comments as immature and it just exposes how ignorant and hateful you are. Your words have no meaning or significance because there are more people who CARE about unity and tolerance.
ISLAM is not going anywhere, it will NEVER be exterminated, and I know that bothers all of you. Where are Muslims forcing people to convert? People are converting to Islam because it is their choice! The majority of converts are WOMEN, and why do you think women are converting? To be oppressed?? Why don't you stop generalizing and TALK to real Muslims for a change. If you can read something written by Ibn Warriq, then why don't you give some time to people like me and to all the other Muslims who are working very hard to defend our way of Life. Why don't you attend a Mosque in the same way I have attended Churches?
Someone here said I'm trying to be a "Buddhist". lol, that just hows how much he doesn't know about Islam! See, you are so struck by talk of compassion that you can't believe it's coming from a Muslim. Maybe you should stop sitting in front of your computer and go out into the real world for a change. LISTEN and READ these words and put them into action: OPEN YOUR HEART TO PEACE, just for once and you will discover the difference. You say that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the work of the Devil? No, YOUR hatred and intolerance towards Muslims is.
I don't care what any of you say because God is watching and He sees that I have at least tried to establish peace with you. And in the End, Truth and Love prevails. If you are someone who still hates Islam, then you go against everything God has taught about Love. We are ALSO human beings, we also deserve to be treated like ones, and we also have dreams and aspirations in this life. We will never stop speaking out against ignorance and bigotry, and our Faith grows as we speak.
Salaam,
~JehanZeb~
Stay in the company of Lovers.
Those other kinds of people, they each
want to show you something.
A crow will lead you to an empty barn,
A parrot to sugar.
- Rumi
The beginning of jihad:
Sirat Rasul Allah (Life of the Prophet of Allah), by Ishaq,
Number 416
“At age 53, Mohammed sent forth his fighters to Waddan in search of the Quraysh. They returned without fighting.”
The Quraysh was the tribe (extended family) of Mohammed
Number 440 “…Some argued not to fight because half the Muslims were from Mecca and kin. … .”
number 440
“As Mohammed saw the Quraysh march into the small valley, he said ‘O Allah, here come the Quraysh, in their vanity and pride, contending with you and calling me a liar.
O Allah, give me the help you promised. Destroy them this morning!’”
number 443
“One of the Quraysh had a hot temper and decided on his own that he would drink from the well in front of the Muslims. Off he went to be met by Islam’s finest and strongest man, Hamza. In one blow Hamza’s sword cut through the man’s leg at the shin. He fell on his back with his leg pointed toward his companions, gushing blood. The man then started to crawl to the well. Hamza killed him by sword before he could reach the well. Islam drew first blood, and the killing was a bad omen for the Quraysh.”
Continued to this day – nearly 1,400 years after the death of Mohammed
The “religion of peace” is responsible for murdering
Africans – 120 million; 11 million African slaves were shipped across the Atlantic, 14 million Africans were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. It is estimated that for every 1 slave who survived jihad, capture and transport, 5 died. Therefore for 25 million African slaves who survived, about 120 did not. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
Christians – 60 million; 9 million “martyred” by the “religion of peace” and 50 million more by jihad of the “religion of peace. Recently 1 million more African Christians have been murdered in the name of Islam.
Hindus – 80 million; Killed in the total jihad against India. “The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad.”
Buddhists –10 million; “Islamic jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India.”
Jews – All; The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective.
The Koran has 153,000 words; Bukhari’s Hadith – 338,000 words; Ishaq’s Sira – 408,000 words. Translation –17 percent is about Allah and 83 percent is about Mohammed.
If "JehanZab" cannot stand the heat in the well-informed kitchen of this website, he certainly will be afraid to enter the living-room, with its large and roaring fireplace, where sit people even better informed, both about Islam -- why some can quote huge chunks of the Qur'an back at him, perhaps even better than he can -- in which are waiting for him Ibn Warraq, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Anwar Shaikh, and Wafa Sultan, and Irfan Khawaja, and Azam Kamguian, and a cast of tens or hundreds of thousands of highly intelligent and articulate people who were born, through no fault of their own, into Islam and into societies suffused with Islam, and have thought, and thought, and come to conclusions quite different from those of that apologist, a blend of sinister taqiyya and blind obedience, who calls himself "JehanZab" and somehow believes that Infidels, and intelligent Apostates (who represent the gravest threat, because it is they who not only know the texts, but know intimately the psychology of Muslims who try to hold on, and why they continue to defend, out of True Faith of the True Believer, or out of filial piety, or out of embarrassment, or out of the Need To Cling to Something, what is entirely and obviously -- to the Apostates and to us, the Well-Informed Infidels -- intolerable, and inadmissible.
"Where are Muslims forcing people to convert? "
...just name any Muslim country....those poor souls who refuse to convert end up as body parts spattered on the sidewalk, never to be heard from again.....
The ACLU says it offers legal services...So in my attempt to help the country and obtain legal service, I wrote them a nice letter asking them to help me prevent another 9/11 terrorist attack. (Telling them in the letter) It has come to my attention that an organization has decided to go to a Judge and ask for permission to allow known terrorists into my country. The effect of this if it goes through is, I and millions of others will become a target of hate and possibly terrorist attacks.
If anyone wants to write here is the website with the email address for each state.
http://www.aclufl.org/contact/index.cfm
""JehanZab" certainly is a slick talker who might influence the uninformed or the weak minded...He comes to the wrong neighborhood here...
"The group said the provision violates the First Amendment and has resulted since 2001 in the exclusion from the United States of numerous foreign scholars, human rights activists and writers, barred "not for legitimate security reasons but rather because the government disfavors their politics.""
-from the article
Excuse me but since when are non-American citizens, who are not even IN the United States, entitled to protection under our own First Amendment, such that the American civil liberties union sees fit to take up their cause? That makes no sense.
"I don't care what any of you say because God is watching and He sees that I have at least tried to establish peace with you."
Ahhhhh...the invitation to convert.
"And in the End, Truth and Love prevails. If you are someone who still hates Islam, then you go against everything God has taught about Love."
No JehanZeb, common sense is not synonymous with hate. We go against "Love" when we sit by and allow you Muslims to destroy other peoples cultures, religions and lives.
"We are ALSO human beings, we also deserve to be treated like ones, and we also have dreams and aspirations in this life."
Ditto.
"We will never stop speaking out against ignorance and bigotry, and our Faith grows as we speak."
Ditto & double ditto.
JehanZeb, it is apparent that you are a young man who has not lived in the real Islamic world, i.e., the Middle East, and have not seen the atrocities that are committed in the name of your religion on a daily basis. We are opposed to your belief system because we have our own cherished beliefs and you rationalize, through the commands of your god Allah, that it is not only acceptable but mandatory to convert non-Muslims to your belief system whether we like it or not, whether it kills us or not. If you don't know that the first act of
a Muslim who desires to spread Islam in a country other than his own is to invite the kufr to convert. If they refuse they are ordered to pay the jizya tax and to feel themselves subdued. If that fails you may make war on them, translation, you may terrorize them and/or kill them to get them to do what you want them to do, all sanctioned by Allah.
If you do not know this you are not a true Muslim, you have not read your Qu'ran and you have no business lecturing any of us on our hate and prejudice.
We are not trying to convert you. Can you say the same?
"The Truth is, you people don't want to see Beauty and Peace in Islam"
I'd love to see the "Beauty and Peace" in Islam. What a genuinely refreshing change it would make from the daily litany of beheadings, bombings, "honor" killings (which have absolutely zero to do with honor), acid flung in women's faces, rocket attacks, mass murders and other atrocities.
JehanZeb, while extolling Islam you neglect to give any reason why the overwhelmingly vast majority of all terrorist attacks in this world are committed by Muslims. Not Christians, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists but Muslims. I doubt that I'm the only one who regards your neglect to address this one glaring omission as a sign of dissimulation by you. Let's just say that it tends to taint your message and fails to impress. You may as well juggle flaming torches in front of an audience of burn victims.
What is your stance on Islam's need for reformation? Or is there even a need for it in your mind? As others have pointed out, why are you not going amongst your more radical coreligionists and pleading with them to abate their declared war of jihad upon the West so that we might gain a more tolerant view of your faith? Do you feel there is any need for ostensibly moderate Muslims like yourself to declare a jihad against those who twist and pervert your blessed religion with atrocities and mass murder? Please feel free to elaborate upon this matter.
Do you believe that we in the West must abandon our freedom of speech solely because your fellow Muslims find some relatively benign cartoons about Mohammed to be so offensive that people's lives were threatened over them? Please do not forget that it is this same right to free speech which allows you to post almost whatever you wish here in this Internet forum without fear of apprehension, unlike Abdolkarim Nabil Seliman in Egypt. Have you noticed how Mr. Spencer has not deleted any of your posts from this forum? What does that say to you about tolerance? What is your position on Abdolkarim Nabil Seliman’s arrest and his subsequent FOUR YEAR prison term for criticizing Islam?
If Islam is so focused upon peace and harmony between cultures, why is it that fabulously wealthy Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar don't put an end to the Palestinian - Israeli conflict by resettling all of the Palestinian people within their own national borders? Why do they, instead, continue to perpetuate the endless hatred and killing by financing terrorist attacks upon Israel?
Are you willing to deny that Saudi Arabia's government DOES NOT publish school textbooks that portray Jews as pigs and Americans as dogs and donkeys? How are we in the West supposed to interpret such acts save by assuming that an Islamic enemy has declared unending war upon us? Do you honestly think that we could be so utterly stupid as to believe your word against the daily acts of terrorist violence and carnage, all committed in the name of Allah?