This Raleigh News & Observer story about Kamil Solomon's presentation on Islam at Enloe High School in North Carolina, "Students told to shun Muslims" by Yonat Shimron and Kinea White Epps, quotes CAIR's Ibrahim Hooper and a student, but not Kamil Solomon himself. As such the claims about what was said have to be taken with a grain of salt. And a few elements bear closer examination:
RALEIGH - A national Muslim advocacy group has rebuked the Wake County Public School system for allowing a Christian evangelist to speak at Enloe High School and distribute pamphlets denouncing Islam.The Council on American Islamic Relations said the school system will have created a "discriminatory, hostile learning environment," violating federal civil rights law, if it does not investigate the incident and apologize to students.
The complaint stems from a guest appearance last week in several classes by Kamil Solomon, a Raleigh-based Christian evangelist, who urged students to shun Muslims.
"When you bring in somebody to distribute hate-filled literature without an opportunity for rebuttal, you have a disturbing situation," said Ibrahim Hooper, communications director for the national council, known as CAIR....
Great, Ibrahim. I am available to rebut your literature whenever and wherever you distribute it. You know where to contact me.
Solomon's appearance Friday in teacher Robert Escamilla's social studies classes at Enloe, a magnet school for gifted and talented students, shocked many who took the pamphlets home and showed them to their parents, students said. One pamphlet, comparing Jesus with Muhammad, says the Muslim prophet "enslaved people, abused women and taught Muslims to terrorize non-Muslims and force them into Islam."
Well, that's a summary statement, of course, but a case can be made for it. The N&O assumes prima facie that it is false, but on what evidence? Hooper's word?
One wonders, however, why people keep getting this impression about Muhammad. Hooper could do more to keep this sort of thing from happening by dropping the bully-boy intimidation tactics and addressing the elements of the Qur'an and Sunnah that give rise to this view of Muhammad. Did he enslave people? Of course. His life, as detailed in the earliest Islamic sources (which I used for my own biography, The Truth About Muhammad) is full of battles, after which his men enslaved their captives. This is also in the Qur’an, which assumes that a Muslim will be a slaveowner, and prescribes freeing a slave as the penalty for breaking an oath (5:89). The Qur’an also includes directions about marriage with slaves: "And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants" (24:32).
"Abused women"? Well, the Qur'an does sanction wife-beating: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them" (4:34).
"...taught Muslims to terrorize non-Muslims and force them into Islam"? Terror is in the Qur'an too: "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies..." (8:60). "Force them into Islam"? Forced conversion? No. But non-Muslims, including the "People of the Book" -- Jews and Christians -- are to be fought until they are subjugated and made to pay a poll-tax (jizya) from which Muslims are exempt: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (9:29).
So is Kamil Solomon being vilified for telling the truth? Memo to Ibrahim Hooper: non-Muslims can read those Qur'ans you're sending out. In fact, I encourage them to do so. And they can see that when people do what I just did -- quote some problematic passages -- you don't explain them, or make any effort to keep Muslims from taking such passages as marching orders. Instead, you vilify the non-Muslim who quotes them as "hateful." Well, people are seeing through your game. Until you engage these issues honestly and forthrightly, people will see you as disingenuous or worse -- except the mainstream media, I suppose, and that's all that matters.
Back to the article:
"He basically told us Muslims were bad and we should convert to Christianity," said Alyssa Kaszycki, 14, of Cary, who heard Solomon during a freshman seminar class. "He told all the girls we should never marry a Muslim man because they would take away our freedom and beat us."...
Did he really tell her "Muslims were bad"? Maybe he did, but I doubt it. I don't know Kamil Solomon, but I expect he is as aware as we all are that human nature is everywhere the same, people are people everywhere, some are good, some are not so good, and no one is perfect. But none of that negates the fact that some Muslims do act upon Qur'an 4:34 and other verses regarding women, and their presence in the Islamic holy book, unmitigated by any interpretative tradition that rejects literalism, makes the mistreatment of women systemic and self-perpetuating.
Michael Evans, Wake County schools spokesman, said the district was looking into the matter."We're going to take the accusations seriously," Evans said. "It is part of our ongoing investigation. We need to ascertain what happened and what comments were made."...
I hope they do, accurately, without allowing themselves to be mau-maued by CAIR.
Welcome to the truth kids.
Practicing muslims are bad for your health.
Spread the word.
Not the taqiyya of Ibrahim.
Robert,
As a Muslim and aspiring filmmaker, it hurts and disturbs me that you make a living off of criticizing and vilifying my beautiful and peaceful way of Life. I just want you to know that Muslims all around the world, including the CAIR organization will always be there to stand up and speak out against your immaturity, ignorance, and prejudice.
Hate never did the world any good and I personally think you should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a Christian while you demonize your Abrahamic brothers/sisters. I think there's still a lot you need to learn about being a human being. I'm only 23 years old, yet I have learned in life that not all adults are mature and grown up. From the quality of your work, it shows that you don't care about compassion or peace, but separation and war.
Don't you feel ashamed of yourself at all for being so negative and prejudice? Is this the type of world you want people to live in? Do you want to keep spreading intolerance and ignorance in the United States? Do you want your children to be just as hateful and ignorant as you? Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings. Islam teaches us to journey outside of ourselves and help people who are in need. I could easily get a book published if I said some bad things about my religion because that's what the world wants, they like when ex-Muslims write negative things about Islam, but no thank you, I choose God over worldly "success" because His Love is Greater than anything people like YOU have ever known. The Love I have for my people is greater than yours because my work stems from Truth and flows with compassion and peace, they came from my Heart. Yours are filled with lies and deception. How are you making the world a better place?? You're making it worse. Because of people like you, I have to worry about my children being picked on just because of their ethnicity and religious background. Because of people like you, I can't stand up for my rights without someone complaining and saying Islamophobia is some "myth." A myth? I've been pulled over by police officers so many times while working on my independent films, just because I'm brown skinned, but do I judge all Americans and say they are evil? No, of course not! America is a country founded on religious freedom and tolerance, Mr. Spencer, and even our elementary schools teach us to treat others as human beings and to never judge people based on the color of their skin, religion, or nationality.
Shame on you, Mr. Spencer.
No matter what you do, Muslims will always be here. And I know that bothers you. Just remember that peace, tolerance, and Love is being taught to you RIGHT NOW by a Muslim, and I hope one day, insha'Allah, you will see my films.
Salaam, Shalom, Shlama, Peace
~JehanZeb~
al-jahil 'adoww nafsoh
The ignorant is his own enemy
Perhaps if Cair keeps on their bleating, we can ask them what goes on in their mosques on fridays, what are they preaching, can we inspect the koran and point out the passages where they want to kill all non muslims. Cair needs to be careful for the more the sqawk, the more people find out the truth, and when the truth is unveiled, their cult of deah will find its deathbed.
JehanZeb
Thanks for your note. For someone who supposedly eschews hate, it is interesting that it is so full of insults and inaccurate, pejorative characterizations of my work.
It is also interesting that you don't address any of the Qur'an passages I quoted above, or explain what you plan to do to keep Muslims from interpreting them, as you well know that many do, in a way that harms women and non-Muslims. As long as you and others like you continue to claim that such Qur'an quotes only manifest "ignorance" and "hate" on the part of those who quote them, and as long as you engage in defamation of those who explore the elements of Islam that are giving rise to violence in the world today instead of setting out some positive ways to mitigate the effects of such verses among Muslims, you will be contributing to the climate of suspicion toward Muslims that you claim to be a victim of.
And you are contributing to that climate of suspicion far more effectively than I ever could.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Because of people like you, I have to worry about my children being picked on just because of their ethnicity and religious background.
from ~JehanZeb
Just how many children do you have at 23 years old? How old is your wife? How old was she when whe made the choice to marry you or did she get such a choice?
Robert doesn't make me want to do anything to you except avoid contact.
Your love, peace and flowers didn't work here and now you are degenerating into brutish name calling and mudslinging. Go away you are boring, we have heard this nonsense so many times.
I know why you didn't answer Hugh's question about reading the Bible.
Followers of Satan don't like the ending, Satan loses.
Back to topic;
I would love to know if this was one of the schools where the students had to play-act at being Muslim during Ramadan. Where the followers of Islam have been brainwashing our babies with their propaganda.
"Okay, here's the deal. Television and debauchery have left Americans with no deductive reasoning skills-they don't think, they just watch Oprah. All we have to do is use their own talking points against them! It doesn't matter what the facts are, as soon as they hear words like predjudice, racism and hate, they go into a Pavlovian trance! So if someone quotes troublesome (to them) passages in the Koran, you don't have to trouble yourself with refuting their arguments. Just claim their criticisms are "intolerant" or "hateful" and let American groupthink take care of the rest. We don't even have to engage in true taqiyya, because the infidels want so badly to believe lies in the first place! Our victory is assured!"
Jihadist subversion strategy
Thx for addressing this issue, Robert. I just regret that the people at that school were Evangelical Christians. Once again, those brave and wonderful people put us Jews to shame, as I'm afraid to admit that most Jews are far too liberal to ever undertake such a program of enlightenment for our young people.
Auntbea,
I don't have any children yet nor am I married, but I will one day, God willing.
I am sorry if I have provoked any anger in you. My words came from my heart and I simply pointed out the prejudice and ignorant behavior of Mr. Spencer's work. Anyone who makes money off of insulting another way of life is someone who truly doesn't care about unity or peace.
My mosque has been vandilized, my Muslim sisters have been spat at in public, they have been verbally and physically abused just because they wear the headscarf, people have thrown water bottles at them, a Muslim friend of mine had his car tires knifed, etc. I have dealt with so much verbal abuse - from a soldier cursing me off and calling himself a "Babylonian Slayer" to some punk yelling to me, "Go back to Iraq!" The Muslim experience is something very important to the world as well as American society and I bring that voice forth in my own work. Mind you, I am not saying these things to criticize Americans, because I know that the verbal and physical abuse does NOT reflect American values. I grew up around non-Muslims, I have non-Muslim friends, and I would not change my life at all if I were to do it all over again. I Love my friends and they Love me, we are all children of God, brothers and sisters united in True Spirit.
I DID answer Hugh's question. Let me copy and paste the response for you here:
"Hugh asked me if I have ever read the Bible or attended a Church. Yes, I have read the Bible, not in its entirety, but I'm getting there. I've read the Old Testament and a lot of the New Testament, I own a few copies of each of them. My Christian friends and I swapped Bibles/Qur'ans. I have also been to Churches, both Protestant and Catholic ones. I have had my friends come to my Mosque as well and they found it to be a very educational experience."
The only mudslinging going on here, AuntBea, is the relentless bashing and vilifying of Islam and Muslims. I encourage you to seek peace and listen to what WE Muslims have to say for a change.
Thank you,
~JehanZeb~
Jewdog, speaking as an Evangelical myself, I urge you not to waste your breath praising us. We've got our warts, for sure. A portion of us accepts Mr. Casual-Blasphemy-Pat Robertson as a "prophet", when he's been wrong a number of times with his "The LORD told me"s--see Deuteronomy 18 on that one. Some of us are recruitment ground for the Aryan Nations/Stormfront types of whom Purevil speaks. Perhaps the best thing that can be said about us as a [large, diverse, rather disorganized] community is that we have left ourselves open to God's Word in the Old and New Testament.
Still, I am heartened that some of our preachers are out to speak of the unpleasant aspects.
"The only mudslinging going on here, AuntBea, is the relentless bashing and vilifying of Islam and Muslims. '
And looking at events all around the globe, who could fault us. What group of people are using the book from the "religion of peace" to kill and maim others by the millions?? Closing your eyes and refusing to engage in a dialogue concerning a substantial number of muslims using that book to justify murder world-wide will not gain you any respect from those who are able to engage in critical thinking. just whining about how you are misunderstood and your religion is so beautiful and peaceful without acknowledging the harm it is causing to tens of millions of people in every part of the world make you appear.... pathetic.
your beautiful religion discriminates against and kills religious minorities wherever muslims are in the majority. If you want to do any good in this world. Go to one of those hell holes and fight for peace and equality for your non-muslim brothers . good luck
This is definitely OT but I must ask this.
This has been bugging me for quite a long time: do any Jewish JWers have a website for the Talmud? I want to know if those people who claim the Talmud gives Jews the right to lie to "goyim", says non-Jewish lives are worth less than Jewish lives, and other nasty things are bulls***ing or not. They probably are because this sounds like a familiar holy book we all know of. But I just want to verify for myself.
Robert, I sent you a link to this story on Thursday. Why didn't you credit me? :((((((((
"Let me tell you something, I would NEVER IN MY LIFE insult another religion or direct my work at a specific group of people because I CARE about other people's feelings."
...it is a lie...
We have had many types of Muslim counterattacks over the last few years. Just a few to list
1. The "out of context" ploy.
2. The Koran can only be understood by Muslim scholars.
3. The Koran can only be understood in Arabic.
Then there were Muslims appearing in disguise - as Catholics who had converted to Islam, or even as disinterested athiests. All of them were exposed.
Now we have a different type. This type, and I'm seeing this quite often recently, is the one claiming that the criticism of Islam is an indication of hate. They ask, "how it is that people can be so full of hate", and that "Islam is all about love and peace". What they are trying to do is to occupy the "holier-then-thou" moral high ground.
So I ask Jehan, why is it that you dont take your criticism of hate to the extremists in Islam - the ones that cutoff the heads of little girls while invoking "Allah Ackbar", and believe that they are doing it to please allah. Not just that, but the "learned" scholars of Islam back this understanding of Islam, that decapitating young Christian girls, is religiously sanctioned.
The life of Mohammed and the example he set, is one of the most deplorable I have ever come across. The stink of hate, dear JehanZeb, is coming from your religious texts - or more charitably if it pleases you, the interpretation of same. You dont need to look abroad for the stench, just look in your own backyard.
JehanZeb,
Perhaps you're a Muslim In Name Only (MINO).
Keep engaging your mind and wrestling with these troubling issues.
One day it may save you, and us as well.
Reform at the grassroots level is possible, particularly in the western world.
Islam is being demonized in western societies because of a few (very) rotten apples. Meanwhile, Christianity is being demonized in the middle-east because of a few (very) rotten apples. Each side can clearly see how bad the rotten apples from the other side are, and are unable (unwilling?) to see the rotten apples on their own side.
Moreover, each side takes the part for the whole: as the moderate people of each side are not being seen, because they make no waves, the only ones that are being seen from the other side are - guess who? - the "rotten apples". This leads to the erroneous idea that "these other guys, they're dangerous, they're attacking us, we must defend ourselves by destroying them".
I cannot speak for the Muslim. I was raised in a catholic family in Europe, I know a few muslim people (nice, integrated people, by the way) and have nothing bad to say about them. As I don't know their religion/culture very well, I cannot tell a good muslim apple from a rotten one.
However, I can easily spot a rotten Christian apple. (ok, "suicide by police" mode activated. Ready to be flamed.) These are the ones who say that the Bible is to be read and interpreted literally. As in "the world was *really* made in 7 days". As in "Adam was made from mud". As in "There was actually a tree and a Garden, and we can point, in a world map, more or less where it was". These are the same ones who deny science, and evolution, and the right of others to follow their own beliefs. These are the ones who say that "all non-christians are going to hell", and who promote hatred towards them. That's a big load of bull****.
The Bible was written many centuries ago, in a certain society whose literary skills and methods were very different from the ones we have today. Jesus told us many stories to illustrate the undelying principles, and that was the way things were done in that time. Or do you believe the Parable of the Prodigal Son was about a real boy?! The world creation, as depicted in the Bible, is a big parable, meant to tell us that God is the origin of the world and of everything that exists, and we should thank Him for having created us.
Those who defend that God made the world in 7 days (and that He even made fossils "appearing to be millions of years old just to confuse the unbelievers", as I recently saw...) are actually underestimating God's greatness. God created the world, and then He created Man from something that already existed. Could have been mud, but what does separate us from other animals? The Soul. We have one, they don't. So, why can't we just accept the fact that God let the animals evolve just like Science says, and then, one day, he took a pair of monkeys (or a whole lot of them) and gave them souls, therefore creating Mankind from something that already existed? Apes, mud... does it really matter?!
Some centuries ago, the Christians said that the Jews had killed the Lord, and that because of that collective sin they were condemned as a people. There are still some rotten christian apples who believe in that. Many Evangelical churches say that Catholics are going to hell. Many Jehovah Witnesses say that all the others are going to hell.
I don't believe so. Whichever religion we happen to be raised in, if we're righteous and tolerant we will certainly be rewarded for it. "Love thy neighbour" - and let Him be judge.
We have had many types of Muslim counterattacks over the last few years. Just a few to list
1. The "out of context" ploy.
2. The Koran can only be understood by Muslim scholars.
3. The Koran can only be understood in Arabic.
from a post by DP111
Leaving aside number one, numbers two and three should be conclusive proof that the message of Mohammad is not universal and that it is merely a tool for Arab supremacy. Otherwise, Muslim scholars would have taken pains to translate it into the languages of those they were trying to reach. The Christian bible does not need to be read in Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek. The message is the same in any language.
European Catholic:
What ARE you talking about?
There are literalists who believe the earth was created in seven days, but I don't see them trying to destroy everyone who doesn't believe as they do and I don't see other Christians nodding in silent agreement. They are not the reason Christianity is being "demonized in the Middle East". Are you sure you're a Catholic?
Those literalists are but one sect in Christianity. Christianity had its religious wars but they were centuries ago. We have grown up since then.
A "few rotten apples" in Islam killed three thousand people in one day and a "few rotten apples" might have killed as many more if their plot to bring down ten airliners wasn't exposed. Now the rest of us can't even bring a bottle of water on an airplane, all because of a few(?) rotten apples.
"Some centuries ago, the Christians said that the Jews had killed the Lord, and that because of that collective sin they were condemned as a people. There are still some rotten christian apples who believe in that. Many Evangelical churches say that Catholics are going to hell. Many Jehovah Witnesses say that all the others are going to hell."
Saying that someone is a bad Christian and is going to hell is a far cry from saying someone is a bad Christian and blowing him up on a street or shooting him in a mall. I don't care what anyone believes will happen to me AFTER I die. I DO CARE about those who think they have a right to end my life TODAY because of what I believe. You don't find that in Christianity. I'm sure you can point to the evangelicals who blew up abortion clinics and killed doctors for their religious beliefs but they aren't lionized by society and they aren't excused. They are sinners and they pay the penalty for their crimes.
You can be a Catholic, a Baptist, a Muslim, an atheist. I COULDN'T CARE LESS. I don't want you forcing your beliefs on me or threatening me with bodily harm if I don't convert. The only people I see doing that today are MUSLIMS.
"Whichever religion we happen to be raised in, if we're righteous and tolerant we will certainly be rewarded for it. "Love thy neighbour" - and let Him be judge."
Tell it to the MUSLIMS all over Europe. Or are you busy saying your prayers to Allah at this moment?
Now I am angry.
I don't have any children yet nor am I married, but I will one day, God willing.
I am sorry if I have provoked any anger in you. My words came from my heart and I simply pointed out the prejudice and ignorant behavior of Mr. Spencer's work. Anyone who makes money off of insulting another way of life is someone who truly doesn't care about unity or peace.
My mosque has been vandilized, my Muslim sisters have been spat at in public, they have been verbally and physically abused just because they wear the headscarf, people have thrown water bottles at them, a Muslim friend of mine had his car tires knifed, etc.
From above
If you have no children why did you lie about the safety of them? I guess that's what's called projecting. I only asked about arrainged marriages because I deplore them Period. They were still being practiced in some parts of the South when I was a teenager. I didn't like it then and don't now.
I am angry NOW because the progression of your complaints suggested that I was in some way responsible.
First of all, was your Mosque vandalized by Christians? Or another sect of Islam? What did the police investigation show?
Your friends tires, you are sure it was a hate crime and not some crazed, bored, trenchcoat teenager? What did the police say.?
If your sisters were spat upon, was the culprit arrested? If the offender was HIV positive that is a serious crime. Why did they do it? What did the police say? Does that make them soiled? Did you have to 'honor' them?
I am asking all these questions so you can tell me your beliefs so that I may understand you better.
I have one more question. Why are you preaching at us when you should be working on that tiny minority of people who have hijacked your beloved religon? I am not commiting any hate crimes or strapping bombs to kids. I have never even seen a woman in that head to toe getup in person. It's probably too hot here.
You don't know what or who I am so how can you judge how I feel? I was not angry with you and you have no right, barring evidence to the contrary, to accuse me so.
BTW all my Bibles are one volume not two.
kepha,
That was a nice evangelical post. We have a serious problem with islamists and what is your solution? Why attempting to smear real Christians with storm trooper rhetoric. That’s right real Christians, not the new fangled lefty version you seem to think is the be all tell all of religion. What do you evans stand for, absolutely nothing that’s what. The evans are the biggest surrender monkeys I have ever seen. With them on our side we will surely lose every future election when you all become offended and pick up your toys and go home crying. We want people with spine on our side, people that can be counted on, and evans aren’t it. I thank God every day the there were no evans during the American Revolution. We don’t intend to pack our suit cases and hop on a cattle car of death heading towards a gas chamber for anyone, anywhere, anytime. Robertson is one of your dysfunctional co religionists, one of among many, many, many. What I write is crap you say? Prove me wrong if you can.
JenaZeb,
Find the source of your true anger.
It is closer than you realize.
Which pharm maker controls the high blood pressure and vicodin pills, because with all this outrage by Muslims their arteries must be popping like tires on a hot day........a person could make a fortune investing in them.....and hopefully judges will start mandating dosing all these outraged Muslims to calm them down.
"Islam is being demonized in western societies because of a few (very) rotten apples. Meanwhile, Christianity is being demonized in the middle-east because of a few (very) rotten apples. Each side can clearly see how bad the rotten apples from the other side are, and are unable (unwilling?) to see the rotten apples on their own side."
you are either so full of shit or just stupid. to even try to put christianity and islamofascism on an equal moral plane is irresponsable and downright wrong. agian, very large numbers of muslim conservatives kill innocent people in the name of allah, by the thousands, every day. the mullahs are teaching children and the ignorant parents of the children to hate and murder non muslims right now. this is occuring not only all over the middle east but everywhere else a mosque stands. muslim ruled countries are killing non believing people right now !!
nowhere are christians systematically persecuting and killing muslims for their religious beliefs. on the contrary we bend over backwards to "understand' the muslim invader. we dont want to hurt their "feelings" by pointing out their murderous ways. if the two religions were equal, we would see massive muslim killings in england, france, germany, all ostensibly, christian nations. but we dont. we see, for the most part, concessions to the minority muslim population. we see school curriculum being changed so not to "offend" the barbarians. we see muslim only lavatories built in the u.k so they can wash their feet in the sink before prayer.
Nowhere in the middle east is a single concession made to as not hurt the "feelings" of a christian. they are lucky if the not raped and murdered by a true believer.
DONT EVER EQUATE A CHRISTIAN WITH A MEMBER OF THAT MURDERING BARBARIOUS TRIBE
European Catholic
Your post is an eloquent testimony for tolerance. You put it well, "Love thy neighbour" - and let Him be judge".
Unfortunately, there is no reciprocity in Islam. The concept of love they neighbour, i.e., the Golden rule that Ali Sena has pointed to for a long time, is present in many other faiths, and above all in Christianty, but finds no resonance in Islam.
There is no reciprocity in Islam, has been stated by Pope Benedict quite recently, as well as many other thinkers through the ages. Other faiths and cultures, following that rule when encountering Islam, have either ceased to exist among mass slaughter or totally subjugated, again with mass slaughter as the sub-text, for subjugation with slaughter is the rule of Islam. To follow the rule of love they neighbour, without a principled exception to it, would be dogmatic. Islam is that exception, and though you may know a few kind Muslims, that is not sufficient in itself to warrant wholesale exemption for the totalitarianism of Islam.
The reason for this site is not the hatred of individual Muslims nor the demonisation of Islam. The main purpose is to educate people on the demonic nature of Islam - which is quite different from demonisation.
Your post is thus a useful reminder that we should not engage in the demonisation of individual Muslims, particularly if they are kind and gentle.
PMK posted: The message is the same in any language.
Exactly so. Anyone reading the Koran and the accompanying texts, gets the message of murder, lies, deception, robbery and brigandage, and sexual perversion.
"My mosque has been vandilized, my Muslim sisters have been spat at in public, they have been verbally and physically abused just because they wear the headscarf, people have thrown water bottles at them, a Muslim friend of mine had his car tires knifed, etc.".
....Hey , you should see what Muslims do to Christians in Muslim countries....try, bullets, machetes, bombs, rape, murder, torture,beheadings,stonings,imprisonment, intimidation, firebombing, jiza taxes, political indoctrination, seizure of property, forced conversions,implemintation of second class citizenship status, denial to build churches, denial to say prayer, denial to display crosses or other religious icons, enlavement, and on, and on....
I can see where Islam is indeed a Religion of tolerance and peace....pththththththththth.
PMK posted: The message is the same in any language.
Exactly so. Anyone reading the Koran and the accompanying texts, gets the message of murder, lies, deception, robbery and brigandage, and sexual perversion. I should have added - all this as a divine revelation to Mohammed, and thus sanctioned for all time for Muslims.
~JehanZeb~
Please enlighten me which religion preaches that murder will get you into paradise...oh yeah that's Islam right?
Here is a nice example of the RoP®
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Eventually all the folks will hear the surveillance-wire tapes played in public and Ibby will be a star. We'll all hear Ibby's real sentiments on a number of things. Folks will say, "Ibby should be more tolerant. Gee, the CAIR people are really phonies. Did you hear what they said"?
"My mosque has been vandilized, my Muslim sisters have been spat at in public, they have been verbally and physically abused just because they wear the headscarf, people have thrown water bottles at them, a Muslim friend of mine had his car tires knifed, etc.".
....Hey , you should see what Muslims do to Christians in Muslim countries....try, bullets, machetes, bombs, rape, murder, torture,beheadings,stonings,imprisonment, intimidation, firebombing, jiza taxes, political indoctrination, seizure of property, forced conversions,implemintation of second class citizenship status, denial to build churches, denial to say prayer, denial to display crosses or other religious icons, enlavement, and on, and on....
-posted by exsgtbrown
But like a true Muslim, JehanZeb doesn't appear to be in the LEAST BIT interested in what Muslims are doing to non-Muslims all over the world every single day and for 1350 years now - everything you list. He is only interested in himself and his Muslim friends. As numerous posters here have pointed out, if he were really concerned about love and peace and kumbaya - he would direct his energy towards what his religious compatriots are doing to infidels all over the world - to Jews and Christians and Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs and African animists. But he's not really interested in love and world peace. Like a true Muslim, he's interested only in himself and other Muslims. Frankly, I don't think he's consciously practicing taquiyya. I think he's young and deluded and he's absorbed a whole lot of taquiyya peddled by other Muslims but I think he actually believes what he's peddling. But still, ignorance is no excuse, not now, not 5 years out from 9/11 when the cat was let out of the bag in an information explosion about Islam on the internet. He has had plenty of time to open his eyes to what Muslims are doing all around the planet to non-Muslims everywhere and to begin to ask serious questions about how so many Muslims EVERYWHERE have somehow managed to misinterpret those texts.
Caroline posted: But like a true Muslim, JehanZeb doesn't appear to be in the LEAST BIT interested in what Muslims are doing to non-Muslims all over the world every single day and for 1350 years now - everything you list. He is only interested in himself and his Muslim friends.
There is no reciprocity with Islam. It has been the constant in dealings with Islam and Muslims.
In an essay, G K Chesterton defines the essentials of Barbarism.
1. There is another idea in human arrangements so fundamental as to be forgotten; but now for the first time denied. It may be called the idea of reciprocity; or, in better English, of give and take. That is what I mean by not being reciprocal: and you will find it in all that they do: as in all that is done by savages.(Pope Benedict has also noted that there is no reciprocity with Islam)
2. Barbarism - For we do not mean anything that is an imperfect civilisation by accident. We mean something that is the enemy of civilisation by design. But (in our meaning) barbarism is not a matter of methods but of aims.
(Islam is openly and self admittedly an enemy of civilisation).
3. And, as I have said, his (the savage's) limited but very sincere lunacy concentrates chiefly in a desire to destroy two ideas, the twin root ideas of rational society. The first is the idea of record and promise (Treaty of Hudaibya anyone, and the countless agreements and accords the Palestinians have broken the moment they saw that they could get away with it)
4. Do what he will, he cannot get outside the idea that he, because he is he and not you, is free to break the law; and also to appeal to the law. (Note the way JehanZeb appeals to decent behaviour from Infidels but has nothing to say on the savagery of Islam to non-Muslims)
5. The definition of the true savage is that he laughs when he hurts you; and howls when you hurt him. (That fits to a T)
From the Appetite for Tyranny - G K Chesterton
I have to disagree with this statement by Robert once again. I understand the distinction Robert wants to make, but we (Islam critics addressing a predominantly non-Muslim audience) are talking about Islam's policies, not about Muslim scholars' statements about those policies; we are talking about what's actually enforced, not about how some Muslim scholars and jurists spin, frame, construe, or rationalize what is enforced. Islamic policies do permit the use of force to bring people to embrace it. Verse 9:29 is a good example, where two kinds of force are used to pressure people to declare conversion to Islam: (1) threat of killing in battle--battle enacted because the non-Muslims have refused to embrace Islam or accept Islamic rule, or execution; and (2) under Islamic rule, the imposition of dhimmitude--the humiliating and punishing condition out of which one may extract oneself (legally under Islam) only by converting to Islam. So there you have it: The threat of death is used to pressure people to Islam in battle or under the dhimma. To ensure that the conversions are not forced, the policy would actually have to rule out both (1) and (2), at least. There is no such policy in Islam that overrules (1) and (2) contained in 9:29; thus Islam permits force to be used in converting people to Islam.
Other examples of forced conversion are described in 9:5, and 8:39; and of course there are many examples of force or threat used in the sahih Hadith and Sira which Robert has told us about many times. For example, Muhammad sent out letters to the surrounding regional non-Muslim leaders telling them to "embrace Islam and you will be safe." That 'offer that you can't refuse' is a form of coercion, a use of force to compell someone to declare conversion.
Another example of forced conversion in Islam: Apostasy. The apostates must convert back to Islam or be killed. How is this not forced conversion?
Of course many Muslim scholars claim Islam does not permit forced conversion, and they'll cite 2:256 and so on. They also claim Allah is merciful etc. when he burns people and tortures them in the hell-fires. These kinds of statements are torturing the language beyond recognition. What the apologists claim about the policies is at odds with the substance of the policies themselves. Let's not echo the Islamic PR lines and spin when we are describing Islamic policies. Let's describe them in a way that is straightforward and meaningful to the non-Muslims of various sorts who are to be on the receiving end of these forms of forced conversion.
DP111 - thanks for re-posting that from Chesterton. I recalled the emphasis on "reciprocity" from a post somewhere here but couldn't recall specifically what it was. Now I will recall it in the future. It's rather a refreshing change from the constant discussion of "tolerance", which leads to all sorts of mental confusion about whether one who opposes intolerance somehow becomes "intolerant". Absurd, of course, but it seems that many people have some difficulty getting their heads around that mind-bender. Putting the issue in terms of "reciprocity" may be easier for people to grasp. If I offer something to you and you reciprocate - terrific. We have a basis for mutual relations. If I offer something to you and you refuse to reciprocate - then we have no basis for a mutual relationship and I shall see no problem in denying to you what you refuse to reciprocate. And there you have it. How we should treat Islam from an ethical pov. Islam is the only religion which refuses reciprocity. Therefore, all the rest of us religions shall have reciprocity amongst eachother while denying to Islam that which it demands unilaterally. That's so much clearer than bending our heads around the conundrum of being required to show tolerance to the intolerant merely in order to demonstrate our tolerance!
Caroline
That is an excellent elaboration of the principle. I will save your post along with the rest, and quote it in future, with your comment.
"Michael Evans, Wake County schools spokesman, said the district was looking into the matter."
I think Mr. Evans should envite Mr. Solomon and representatives of CAIR to debate the issue before the Wake County school board to determine if Solomon was telling the truth or lieing to the students.
After all, isn't truth the issue here.
"you are either so full of shit or just stupid. to even try to put christianity and islamofascism on an equal moral plane is irresponsable and downright wrong. (...) nowhere are christians systematically persecuting and killing muslims for their religious beliefs. (...) if the two religions were equal, we would see massive muslim killings in england, france, germany, all ostensibly, christian nations. but we dont.(...) DONT EVER EQUATE A CHRISTIAN WITH A MEMBER OF THAT MURDERING BARBARIOUS TRIBE"
-- spk037
This is precisely the kind of post I expected from a Christian extremist. If you were a Muslim, you'd be a suicide bomber. Congratulations. You're part of the problem, because you're as sure about it as you are wrong.
Ever heard of Norther Ireland? Let's put it in simple words. Part of Ireland (a Catholic country) is taken by England (which is Protestant). Let's ignore why and if there was any justification to it. The question is, centuries have passed and Catholics and Protestants are still killing each other there. No, not Christians killing some weird freak sect from Saturn; they're killing their own brethren.
There was "a problem with Christianity" 5 centuries ago, and thousands were killed in barbaric ways because of it. Of course, those were the "dark ages", and we're supposed to have gone over it by now. Even though there's been some time, and none of us was there, we still are utterly embarrassed when we're told by others about the Inquisition and about how the Latin America was conquered and how its natives were killed, raped, brutalized and/or enslaved. Not to go that far in time, I'm sure everyone who saw "The witches of Salem" also felt uncomfortable, to say the least.
It took us some time and loads of fires and rope, but we eventually came to our senses, and the dark ages were over. We still don't agree in many things among ourselves, and Christianity is now fractured because of what happened during these same years.
I believe that what we are seeing now in Islam is very similar to what we saw in he middle-ages in Christian countries. There is a lot of deliberate brainwashing in Islamic countries, with small children being taught about hating and killing. Information is the enemy of medieval Islam, and that's why their societies are so closed. They're typically poor societies, and people must rely on afterlife to be vindicated - as this life isn't giving them much.
Even if there were as litle as 10% of moderate Muslims that could integrate in western societies (and I believe there are many more), then the problem wouldn't be Islam, but only something that affected 90% of it. I talked about literalists before, because I believe the literalists to be the ones who are causing all this - especially in the Muslim side, I admit, but also in the Christian side. There are rough words in the Bible, too, but few are willing to kill because of these; we focus on the Bible as a whole, and don't blindly stare at this or that verse. Our problem with Islam is that some Mullahs are doing just that - and there is no hierarchy in Islam that can reprimand those. If only there was a Muslim pope... :)
Again, the problem is not Islam - as the problem in the Middle Ages was not Christianity. The problem is about power and abusing it, about people controlling others, and about many not being free enough to decide from their own will. Instead of hating them, we should "counter-brainwash" them, if there is such a thing. After they've been given a honest choice, and a chance to integrate our society, I feel not sorry for the unrepentent.
However, military intervention is like trying to crush a wasp's nest; unless you kill them all in one strike, you'll be stung all over. And I cannot blame them - I'd to the same if I were a wasp - let alone a Muslim.
European Catholic: "Instead of hating them, we should "counter-brainwash" them, if there is such a thing. After they've been given a honest choice, and a chance to integrate our society, I feel not sorry for the unrepentent."
EC - what the hell do you think we're trying to do here? You come on here and point out all the sins of Catholicism and Christianity and when we point out all the sins of Islam (are we bombing anyone here? Burning anyone at the stake?) - you accuse us of being as bad as Muslims are - when the fact is that Christianity has ALREADY cleaned up its act and it took hundreds of years of violent history to do so. And what we're doing here is pointing to what Muslims need to clean up THEIR act, in order to integrate into modern society. But when we do precisely that (with words mind you and not bombs) - you chastise us for being hateful!
"This is precisely the kind of post I expected from a Christian extremist. If you were a Muslim, you'd be a suicide bomber. Congratulations. You're part of the problem, because you're as sure about it as you are wrong."
Actually that's pretty funny. The Christian "extremist" argues with words. As you admit, if he were actually a Muslim he'd argue with bombs. And you see no difference between words and bombs? Maybe by peddling your pathetic moral equivalence, YOU are part of the problem.
Please - straighten out your head first and then grow some balls!
"what the hell do you think we're trying to do here?"
"Trying" is the keyword. Any solution should come from supporting moderate Muslims, and helping them spread tolerance. An outsider cannot hope to "convert" a terrorist to tolerance. Infuriating westerners against Islam only makes things worse. Getting over something like this takes a lot of cold blood.
"Christianity has ALREADY cleaned up its act and it took hundreds of years of violent history to do so"
That doesn't make us any better than they are. Did you personally do anything to promote tolerance, or you're just relying - and capitalizing - on the fact that our ancestors did it?
"And you see no difference between words and bombs?"
Actually, I do - just not the way you see it. I doubt even Hitler ever killed anyone personally. As I doubt most radical Muslim Mullahs ever killed any western. Instead, they use a better weapon: words. Words are not innocent nor harmless. Ask George W. Bush; he knows a lot about it. I'm sure he personally killed no terrorist, but he's very proud of his words (and his orders) that led to that.
"Please - straighten out your head first and then grow some balls!"
I have two gorgeous daughters (despite looking so much like me), so I'm sure my balls are fine, thanks. However, you know what they say about our genitalia - we only have enough blood to either power it or our brain, but not both at the same time. Guess what: "balls" is not what it takes here.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not pro-terrorism. I'm afraid of it, and I fear for my children too. I just don't buy the idea that every Muslim is a terrorist, and as long as there are moderate nad integrated Muslims, I will believe that it's possible for most of them to eventually learn to be just that way.
EC: "Any solution should come from supporting moderate Muslims, and helping them spread tolerance. An outsider cannot hope to "convert" a terrorist to tolerance. Infuriating westerners against Islam only makes things worse. Getting over something like this takes a lot of cold blood."
So what you seem to be saying is that by us infidels using words alone to convey our anger about what Muslims are doing to infidels all over the world, and by pointing out where the justification for Muslims doing that comes from in the source Muslims texts - we are creating MORE extremists (from the large pool of moderates you want on our side) who want to kill us?
Frankly, that line of argument makes me puke. Do you actually think that's a legitimate line of debate? We point out that those guys are factually killing infidels all over the globe and in response, they (the moderates) say - how dare you point that out? You're pissing us off for pointing it out and in retaliation for pointing it out we're going to kill more of you? Is that line of argument actually OK with you?
"That doesn't make us any better than they are. Did you personally do anything to promote tolerance, or you're just relying - and capitalizing - on the fact that our ancestors did it?"
Did I personally do anything to promote tolerance 500 years ago? Uh no. I wasn't alive then. WTF? And this isn't about anyone "being better" than anyone else. I could give a damn about being "better" than anyone. This isn't some beauty pageant or keeping up with the Jones's that we're talking about here. We're talking about the rights of people in the 21st century to go about their daily lives unmolested by the backward norms of 7th century barbarians.
"I doubt even Hitler ever killed anyone personally. As I doubt most radical Muslim Mullahs ever killed any western. Instead, they use a better weapon: words. Words are not innocent nor harmless. Ask George W. Bush; he knows a lot about it. I'm sure he personally killed no terrorist, but he's very proud of his words (and his orders) that led to that."
So you don't think that George Bush should be proud to have used words that led to the killing of terrorists? He's just the same as Hitler to you? Apparently to you there is no difference between the words of a judge who sentences the likes of Ted Bundy to death and the words of an Iranian mullah who sentences an adulterous woman to death by stoning.
"Don't get me wrong: I'm not pro-terrorism."
No - I don't think you are in an active sense. I merely think you are in a passive sense. Which is why I suggest that you need to straighten out your head (from the pathology of moral equivalency) and then grow some balls.
European Catholic:
There you go again. Conflating arguments and reinterpreting history.
"Ever heard of Norther Ireland? Let's put it in simple words. Part of Ireland (a Catholic country) is taken by England (which is Protestant)."
Northern Ireland was occupied by the British and separated from the rest of Ireland and settled by British protestants. It wasn't a religious conflict. They also didn't go around the world killing people in other countries, as the PLO did anyone who supported Israel. Neither side justified its actions in the name of religion. It was a political conflict through and through. I guess you never heard about the peace agreement that was reached there.
"There was "a problem with Christianity" 5 centuries ago, and thousands were killed in barbaric ways because of it. Of course, those were the "dark ages", and we're supposed to have gone over it by now. Even though there's been some time, and none of us was there, we still are utterly embarrassed when we're told by others about the Inquisition and about how the Latin America was conquered and how its natives were killed, raped, brutalized and/or enslaved. Not to go that far in time, I'm sure everyone who saw "The witches of Salem" also felt uncomfortable, to say the least."
It was five centuries ago. We had an enlightenment. The church no longer rules us as it did back then. Kings answered to the pope, until the Reformation. Now the Catholic Church doesn't rule the roost and Catholics and Protestants are able to peacefully coexist. Shia and Sunni Muslims have never coexisted. They've been at war with one another ever since Mohammad died.
"I believe that what we are seeing now in Islam is very similar to what we saw in he middle-ages in Christian countries. There is a lot of deliberate brainwashing in Islamic countries, with small children being taught about hating and killing. Information is the enemy of medieval Islam, and that's why their societies are so closed. They're typically poor societies, and people must rely on afterlife to be vindicated - as this life isn't giving them much."
The violent are coming from the wealthiest countries. We're not being attacked by people from the Sudan. They're coming from Saudi Arabia and other oil-rich countries and from Europe itself. Jet airplanes and automobiles weren't available in the middle-ages. Today's transportation options mean the brainwashing in Islamic countries is finding its way to our shores. We are paying for their backwardness. What did you Europeans do with all those colonies in the last two centuries? Didn't you teach them anything?
You're right about one thing. It's medieval Islam that's the problem and it's incompatible with modern society, but Muslims want to impose it on all of us. Islam can work only in closed countries. These countries don't allow others to flourish, but they expect us to give them total freedom. They expect our doors to be open to them but they are not willing to reciprocate. Such a situation cannot continue indefinitely. You're probably right also that the problem is power. The problem is people are using ISLAM to attain power and they are using Islam to subjugate others - their own citizens as well as non-Muslims around the world.
Do you want a Muslim caliphate? Your own culture will be wiped out as your country is taken over. Anything that is not Islamic will be discredited. If that's what you want, then you might as well convert right now.
We're not living in the Middle Ages. We don't have closed societies in the West. People travel. Globalization is the norm. The problem is that Islamists aren't willing to accept modern societies with diverse peoples. They want purity. They want dar-al-Islam to be universal.
Human history is bloody. Go back as far as you can and you'll find civilizations that were wiped out by conquerors. This includes the entire Middle East - conquered by Arab fighters who wiped out ancient cultures and imposed Islam on all the people. There's a reason Arabic is spoken in much of the Middle East.
Christian and Islamic cultures have their own sins. So do the Chinese, the Mongols and others.
They're all part of human history. This is 2007. You need to face facts. In 2007 the only religion being spread by force is Islam. The only people fighting and killing in order to impose their religion on others are Muslims. The only people trying to wipe out entire cultures TODAY are Muslims.
I guess you cheered when the Taliban destroyed ancient carvings in Afghanistan.
wrathofasma wrote:
...do any Jewish JWers have a website for the Talmud?
This site looks good - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/talmud_&_mishna.html
European Catholic,
I understand the line you are trying to take but hopefully through reading more about Islam you will realise the issues at hand - as mentioned above; no Golden Rule, no ability to reform or question, strict adherence to the letter of the Koran etc.
One cannot negotiate with Islam. The ideology is called fascist because it requires absolute adherence. And like fascism, its no good being a moderate fascist, or an integrated fascist, you're still a fascist.
So the only answer is to destroy the ideology. And to do so one has to be clear about the facts. So keep reading and learning, and realise that the Islamic Ideology cannot be tamed or moderated or enlightened.
And on a seperate note, I don't know which country you live in, but to say Ireland was a religious war is so TOTALLY wrong as to be laughable. There has NEVER been a biblical dynamic to the conflict. Sure, there were partisan lines that divided protestant and catholic, BUT the violence was NEVER bibically sanctioned.
Compare that to ant Islamic violence, even Sunni and Shite violence - its all justified by the Koran and Hadiths.
Thats the difference.
tgusa:
Last time I read Paul-and, admittedly, I had a little help from German named Martin Luther, a French-Genevan named Jean Calvin, and an Englishman named John Bunyan--he gave the impression that the big thing about a "real Christian" is that he is a forgiven sinner, not sinless. Yes, there' a progresive process of sanctification, but we don't see perfection this side of glory. If you are upset about what I said about Pat Robertson, please consider that the main thrust of Big Number Three-Thous shalt not take the name of the LORD your Go in vain--it is not so much aimed at the guy who blurts out "Oh, God!" when he hits his thumb with the hammer instead of the nail as it is at the person who pretends to be a prophet. Judged by Scripture,most so-called latter-day prophets (whether Robertson, Joe Smith, or Muhammad) come up wanting.
All my post did was to admit to someone who praised us Evangelicals too fulsomely that we have a few warts. Far from being "surrender monkeys", we present the Gospel to Muslims. We're the ones who have been chipping away at the Little Teherans in America and slowly and quietly calling out ex-Muslims to rebuild a Christian presence in Turkey. Our unease about a "clash of civilizations" is that we have seen a previously closed door opened in recent decades, and fear to see it slammed shut when the Muslims see the Gospel as a club held over their heads rather than a door through which they may enter. After all, Christ's last word was not "Kill the m____________s!" but "Make disciples of all nations".
Besides, I never made a plug for pacifism. Most of us Ebvangelicals stand in the Just War tradition stemming from Augustine, and admit that governments are allowed to lead peoples to war in certain occasions--self-defense, for one. Further, for as long as I have posted here, I have never spoken of Islam as another way to God; nor have I accepted the moral equivalence of Christian fundamentalism with Islamic radicalism.
Finally, as a Calvinist, I am of the mind that our North Alantic political system of rule of law, consent of the governed, and a balance of freedom and law is in some respects "our baby" (our cultural artefact). If I disparage the sexual revolution, moral reltivism, and such things, please be assured that I am not looking for some kind of "ightly guided" charismatic [indeed, I doubt that such a creature exists] to replace the sytem we have.
As for leftism, I voted for Bush against Gore and again against Kerry, and would do so again.
Also, I beg to differ with you when you say there were no Evangelicals during the American Revolution. Ever hear of John Witherspoon? Horace Walpole wrote about him to say that "Cousin America had eloped with a Presbyterian Parson". The British also complained about the "black legion" of colonial clergy--largely Presbyterian and Congregationalist. I refer you as well to Elias Boudinot, one of our Presidents-in-Congress under the Articles of Confederation, who wrote _Age of Revelation_ to counter Paine' _Age of Reason_. Probably a majority of Americans at the time were influenced by the sort of religion that is today called "Evangelical" (it means "of the Gospel", meaning that it is Christ, not the church, who saves people).
One reason I like this blog is because it teaches a lot of history. TGUSA, I urge you to go to the library and dust off a history book or two yourself.
Northern Ireland was just an example of a war of Christians against Christians, just to illustrate that the Muslims are not the only ones making war. The roots of the conflict weren't religious, but it was catholics vs. protestants nevertheless.
"So what you seem to be saying is that (...) by pointing out where the justification for Muslims doing that comes from in the source Muslims texts - we are creating MORE extremists (...)?"
Yes. I couldn't have said it better. For years the Bible was used to support violence. If someone came and said: "Your religion and your Bible is the root of all evil." I guess you wouldn't hear them. However, you might be more attentive to one of your own who said that "Hey, you're reading it all wrong!"
"The violent are coming from the wealthiest countries."
Saudi Arabia and the likes are hugely asymetric in their wealth; they can be called "wealthy" only if you're taking an average. As for the european terrorist muslims, they're not fully integrated, so they don't belong to the society where they live. Many live in poor suburbs, and when given a chance to go studying in a Madrassa somewhere in Afghanistan or Pakistan they take it with both hands. Not exactly your average educated, well integrated, westernized muslim.
"You're right about one thing. It's medieval Islam that's the problem and it's incompatible with modern society, but Muslims want to impose it on all of us."
I'm glad to see that we agree upon something! :)
"Human history is bloody. Go back as far as you can and you'll find civilizations that were wiped out by conquerors. This includes the entire Middle East - conquered by Arab fighters who wiped out ancient cultures and imposed Islam on all the people. There's a reason Arabic is spoken in much of the Middle East."
Most of European languages has at least some Latin roots. The same could be said of every empire. Tough. Darwin said that the surviving ones are not the "best" but the "fittest"... I agree with you that it's not good to wake up one morning and find out that we may not be at the top of the pyramid any more, but we still have the time and the resources to deal with it...
"I guess you cheered when the Taliban destroyed ancient carvings in Afghanistan."
You got me all wrong. I would cheer if the Taliban were all dead, because they are wrong, they are causing the problem, and they are unrepentant. I couldn't care less about intolerant Muslims.
"So the only answer is to destroy the ideology. And to do so one has to be clear about the facts. So keep reading and learning, and realise that the Islamic Ideology cannot be tamed or moderated or enlightened."
This is where we differ. Thanks for putting it so clearly. "The LORD said, «If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.»" I would spare Islam's righteous and tolerant. I guess we would agree with what to do next: the hell with the rest. Of course, I would include most fundamentalists on the lot, even if some were christians, and here I wouldn't be surprised if we disagreed again...
My whole point is that I'd rather use an antibiotic (which kills the germs but saves the member) than to amputate, while Muslims seem unable to kill the germs among them. I'd rather help them with a healthy dose of penicillin than amputate them altogether from the face of the Earth.
Maybe I'm candid, but I'd rather be killed by a terrorist than kill an innocent. And this pretty much sums it up.
European Catholic: "Maybe I'm candid, but I'd rather be killed by a terrorist than kill an innocent. And this pretty much sums it up."
Yes EC - I think that really does sum it all up from where you are coming from. Does that also mean that you are so committed to non-violence that you would stand by while a monster walks right over and slits the throat of an innocent 6-year old girl who is cowering behind your leg seeking protection? Where is your moral obligation as a Christian to fight against pure evil? I mean you have to recognize that utter pacifism would lead to the absolute triumph of evil all across the planet - including torture and slavery and imprisonment of all the innocent people on the planet. I assume you realize that Buddhism has practically been eradicated from the east and is standing on its last legs in Thailand now, where the Muslims are chopping the heads off of Buddhist monks, as we sit here safely tying on our keyboards? I actually felt very badly today reflecting on how I had rudely suggested to you in my post yesterday that you grow some balls. It was rude. And crude. And there's no need to resort to that sort of language in these forums and I actually regretted it. It bothered me all day. But now that I read what you're saying today, I think that maybe my instincts in so rudely suggesting that were actually sound.
How are you going to have the luxury of absolute pacifism in the face of evil? And at this point in the game, the average person isn't even required to make the kind of fateful decision about whether to actually be violent. (Fortunately for us, much better and braver men and women than us are dealing with those emotions every day so that we don't have to.) We're merely required to wage an uncompromising war of words, which actually has a decent chance at this point in time of avoiding much larger scale violence in the long run. But you seem unwilling to do even that. You would hold us, who are waging a mere war of words, responsible for any increase in actual, physical violence on the part of Muslims in response to those words. I reject the legitimacy of that reasoning. That is unacceptable. Our words cannot be blamed for the violent and crazy response of Muslims. Otherwise, what you are saying is that we have to shut up all together and take what is coming - the inevitable violence and subjugation under Sharia law - lying down. Why? We aren't killing anyone. We are merely protesting verbally. But in your absurd moral equivalence you have somehow made that verbal protest synonymous with and morally equivalent to the actual violence that Muslims are perpretrating all around the world, every single day, with the ultimate goal of depriving us of our freedoms altogether. Frankly, I resent that. It's wrong. What you are saying is simply wrong, from a moral perspective.
Did anyone want to comment on the idea of "freedom of religion." Preaching religion in schools, in public schools should absolutely not be allowed and in case you didn't know, Enloe High School is a public school. I imagine that if a Muslim "preacher" if you will had visited the school insisting that Judaism and Christianity are evil and that by being non-Muslims they are lesser people. (This isn't even a Muslim belief, despite the assertion by some of you that it is.) It would be a real issue.
The pamphlet passed around did not quote the Qur'an according to any translation I've heard of but conveniently rearranged bits and left out bits to give an impression that belies the general beliefs of Islam. The speaker managed to offend and condemn Muslims in the audience and Muslims in general. I'm pretty sure Mr. Spencer gets a kick out of that, but that is behavior which is not and should not be allowed in public schools.
In short, public schools should not be an arena for the preaching of any specific idealogy unless all are treated equally. I'm disgusted at the accusation that CAIR publishes hate-filled literature.
If calling Islam a religion that encourages belief in God, righteous actions, and duty to parents is hateful... I can't even finish that thought, it's too bizarre. So that is what Mr. Spencer wants to refute?
It's like a weird parallel universe, where the most terrifying lies win the arguments. Excuse me while I return to reality.
Amy: "I'm disgusted at the accusation that CAIR publishes hate-filled literature."
Are you equally disgusted at the fact that several high-level CAIR officials have been indicted on actual terrorism-related offenses?
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
I am an Enloe student. I was not at the presentation, but I've heard plenty about it all, and I'm not trying to insult anyone, but it seems to me that many people here are being close-minded and childish. I appreciate other people's point of views, but I don't think people understand the severity of this. First of all, the speaker did basically say Muslims are bad people - stay away from them. He passed out pamphlets, one saying "Do not marry a muslim." It was explaining that a muslim man will seduce you then beat you and all this terrible stuff will happen. To everyone that thinks this is true, it's not. My mom is Christian, my dad is Muslim and I am egnostic. I can testify as a fact, that my father does not beat or harm my mother in any way. Another thing he did: he showed pictures of terrorists and said, "what's similar between all of them? They're Muslim!" This gives an impression to students not exposed to Muslims that all Muslims are terrorists. All Muslims beat their spouses. Also, it is ILLEGAL, COMPLETELY AND OBVIOUSLY ILLEGAL to preach OR demonize a religion in school. Solomon did both.
Lastly, for all of you that think it was okay, what if someone came in and started talking about Christians. He'd show pictures of pedophiles and ask "What is similar about all of these people? They're Christian!" Then he'd tell people not to marry Christians because they're sick, twisted freaks.
Neither of these situations sound right to me. You can judge for yourself. But I know that there are probably students walking around at school, who see a Muslim and immediately label him/her "terrorist". What if we had students walking around, who immediately see a Christian and label them "pedophile"? What kind of world would that be if everyone is labeled for what they can't help - others of their belief committing extreme acts?
Whatever anyone thinks, this is still against the law, according to many professional lawyers, who can even point out where in the law this is banned. And when something is against the law, our duty as citizens is to stop it.