Islamic supremacism and appropriation of history, delegitimizing Judaism (as well as Christianity), is rooted in the Qur'an, going all the way back to the declaration that Abraham was a Muslim (3:67).
By Roee Nahmias in Ynet News, with thanks to Sr. Soph:
"The Western Wall - on all its various parts, structures and gates, and all the names these parts, structures and gates are called – is an inseparable part of the al-Aqsa compound," declared Islamist leader Sheikhh Raed Salah.The Western Wall "is part of Al-Aqsa's western tower, which the Israeli establishment fallaciously and sneakily calls the 'Wailing Wall'. The wall is part of the holy al-Aqsa Mosque," added Salah, who heads the northern faction of the Islamic Movement in Israel.
However these statements were not made recently. Rather, they were made at a time when then Prime Minister Ehud Barak was sitting in a room at Camp David, trying to forge a peace agreement with Yasser Arafat's Palestinian government. But Salah still stands firmly behind them and they can be found on the Islamic Movement's website.
Those who believe in Jewish link to wall - traitors'
Two key issues have come into light following the recent events in Jerusalem, and Israelis will likely not be pleased with either: The first – Salah is establishing his position as a known Muslim leader struggling for the al-Aqsa Mosque (he is now known as the Sheikh of al-Aqsa).
The second – moving even the smallest pebble in the larger Temple Mount area will draw similar reactions, even if it is minor repair work to the Western Wall visitor's site. These works will again bring to confrontations born out of a claim that "Israel is harming the Temple Mount and desecrating a place holy to Muslims."
The reinforcement work to save the collapsing Mugrabi Gate walkway outside the Temple Mount was certainly not seen as such by the Islamic Movement in Israel and Salah immediately arrived at the scene to proclaim the project part of a wide-reaching Israeli plot to destroy the mosque.
According to Salah's sermons, which can be found on his group's websites, Jews have absolutely no connection to the 'al-Buraq Wall', the name given by Muslims to the site."The Mugrabi Gate is part of the western wall of al-Aqsa," says Salah in a sermon number 32, which can be found on his websites dedicated to his organization.
Al-Buraq is the name of the winged white horse with a human head that Muhammad rode to Jerusalem and thence to Paradise, according to Islamic legend -- a legend which is Islam's sole claim to Jerusalem.
Winged horse , hee hee hee...
vampires,werewolves,loch ness monster,yeti
dragons...enough said?
The world belongs to Allah. That's what it is all about.
Prostrate yourselves, infidels: Resistance is useless!
Doesn't everything belong to them?
Salaam Alakium
My name is Joseph this is my first time to comment on this site, I would like to perhaps address several issues that, if I may, immediately require some attention in order to clarify the dynamic positions that designed, are sturctured to vacillitate, and thus in lack of being defendedable,remain unoperated and engineered to leave little choice but to impress oneself into & to undertake the rough angle become apologist or apostatically included that the ensuing lines that have neccessarily been drawn specifically here, the ones in which not only are unresolving onto themselves, in light of the aim, but however futher venture into proffesion of knowledge when their exsists not a legitimate or impartial posture one may take in order to provide their, yes, obligatory role to make straight the path & clear understanding.
We people are here to Love each other, not to hate, & yes while I cannot speak for everyone niether should another. To place together, in terms of meaning & connotation, the word supremacist with Islam is misleading & an impetuous tool that is overassumptious & unfortunately influential & common these days in its sway & austere in its attitude.
Islam does not claim Jerusalem, Islam is not a person, nor a religion... Yes it is true Muslim live in the in Jerusalem, the world is in NO way divided into two abodes! Peace can be achieved
I am not a apologist nor some kind of modernist...
I am a young Muslim man & a simple chemist *IA*
I, as well as all of us, am a human being.
I have a voice, that is, I hope, not unlike the rest of the world, in moderation & conviction, & I must use it to speak up. As of now I have no Islamic legal jurisprudential experience that would be neccessary to speak in specific terms but I do have a vast amount of imformation & undertanding of substance in my short time.
The Palestianian-Israeli is just so tangetial but nonetheless calculated to be included so that the logic would seem to make sense, & thus become the dependent figure of the statements made... In thus ways is Islam equated with hate.
Aladin is insane57 i dont believe enough was said no, no I don't... in fact I don't think anything of meaning was said at all. Clearly are you just a guy that makes jokes or do you actually care about peace?
Have any amoung us have respect?
Here in the Netherlands we also have ALWAYS the same problems with muslims as Israel has: big mouth, lazy, think everything belongs to them. I hate them, they are trash and it's incredable that this scum is in Europe and in other civilized western countries. Every normal thinking government (not possible because left rules and left is synonym for fascism) should throw these animals out of their country like the Jordans did in the seventies with Black September
Also I would like to indicate the quality of bias affiliated with taking such an extreme perspective, such as that of an Raed Salah, who in context of circumstance makes avaible the quotes one needs to form such bias logic or conclusions... in turn & even worse, the hate that is manifested here is reprinted in many Muslim majority countries as 'proofs' that the West hates them by radical elements.
It is a vicious cycle that can only be dismantled piece by piece, just as it was built...
I would definitely say that in terms of religion, Abraham (may peace be upon him) was not a Jew or Christian... this is not to say that ethnically he is not Hebrew, or that he is not the same Abraham altogether, rather as history would prove, the term 'Jew' & 'Judaism' being relativaley new, obviously & eventually after his son's tribe:Judah.
The Quran is accurate to say that he is not a Jew, since clearly he is not... & it goes without saying he was not a Christian. Also note that the Quran states firmly only that he 'bows his will to God'
Islam does not deligitimize Judaism, if thats not self defeating enough to say... We are all responisble for this world
I really cannot believe that people still create oversimplistic generalizations about each other, it is a shameful & disrepectful act to any human.
I still hope that this world can be a better place... Muslims are not animals, how can an honest & sincere person actually attest to such grotesque a beliefe system as one such decorated with hate?
*IA* hate will one day stop... its not the muslims Vs christians Vs Jews.... it does not have to be that way, why do people not onyl accept this but try to summon it by means of apathetic libel?
I take this personally. I've been to the Western Wall about 5 times in my life. The Jews (my people) pray like little church mice down below the Muslim edifices. Their Golden Dome dominates the Jerusalem skyline if you glance in that direction.
The favorite Muslim stunt is for them to get stirred up into a frenzy at Friday services at Al Aqsa mosque, then rain down stones and paving blocks on the Jews praying down below at the Western Wall. These stones are previously stockpiled for such Temple Mount riots. Which have not taken place recently. In 2000-2001 it happened often. Bloody primitives throwing down rocks and concrete on Jews in prayer
These deadly Temple Mount riots would be broken up by Israeli police with tear gas and rubber bullets
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
LOL You are a New Age style Muslim kook!
Oy Gevalt. I just tried plowing through the statements of the verbose poster, adazzlingplaceIneverknew, and at first I thought it might have been Huge Fitzgerald doing a bit of satire, Heck, even this poster's name is verbose. It seems that Al Dazz is employing the Dazzle them with Brilliance form of taqiya, except that it isn't really brilliant so much as it is baffling, which is the other form of taqiya: Baffle them with Bullshit. I see this all the time with posters at Faithfreedom...and my response is always thus:
Everywhere the sons of the Prophet of Allah tread, misery and death settle in.
It doesn't surprise me that the Muslims are claiming the west wall and everything beyond as sacred Muslim holy ground...they claim Al Andalus as such, they claim Kashmir as such, and it won't be long before they say that Dearborn is holy muslim ground.
They always erase the local culture before Arabizing it.
Wasn't it Herod who had the Temple Mount built for the Jews before Jesus Christ was even born, and many centuries before Muhammad came around?
Islam wasn't a part of the process, and didn't even exist. How do the Islamists any claim?
What Israel should do, if the muslims riot, fine them $10,000. and kick them out of Israel, permnamently. If a youth riots, the parents are at fault and should suffer the eviction.
Why should Israel suffer fools. Remember, protest is one thing, but to riot is another.
"if I may, immediately require some attention in order to clarify the dynamic positions that designed, are sturctured to vacillitate, and thus in lack of being defendedable,remain unoperated and engineered to leave little choice but to impress oneself into & to undertake the rough angle become apologist or apostatically included that the ensuing lines that have neccessarily been drawn specifically here, the ones in which not only are unresolving onto themselves, in light of the aim, but however futher venture into proffesion of knowledge when their exsists not a legitimate or impartial posture one may take in order to provide their, yes, obligatory role to make straight the path & clear understanding.
We people are here to Love each other, not to hate, & yes while I cannot speak for everyone niether should another. To place together, in terms of meaning & connotation, the word supremacist with Islam is misleading & an impetuous tool that is overassumptious & unfortunately influential & common these days in its sway & austere in its attitude."
-- from a posting above
Another poster above was too-generously about to give me credit for writing the above as a parody. That's apostatically overassumptious. Magari.
Hope is admittance, however when one has a systematically applied solution to secure a position of tenure where the expressions of their ideology are said as if they are infallible & as if the whole world agrees,in which case they reply is always the same regardless of the condition.
In other words no matter how wrong one may be, they is no room for accepting the possibility... it is absolute & unquestioning....
So yes Jauhara Al-Kafirah, it is very unforunate that you cannot seem to grasp the ideas I have presented out of sheer indifference or incapabilities & unwillingness to have any reconciliation between a Muslim at any cost...even world peace
You see that is exactly what I was speaking about... Their are no positions a Muslim can take in your minds that can, once obtained, cause you to recognize us as human & hear out peace...
I not a modernist I am not a new age style 'kook'
I am not one of these people on faithfreedom
I AM A MUSLIM THAT WANTS PEACE
To you it may well be unacceptable... no matter what... However I am being robbed of my dignity when I cannot even be viewed as who I am without being excluded as some outlier or renegade...
DC watson as far as I am aware, the temple mount was first built by the prophet Solomon son of David (may peace be upon them), who is the founder of the city of Jerusalem... Solomons temple was destroyed by the Babylonians when they conquered the North Kingdom & then the south, where teh Jews remained in bodage without a temple untill Cyrus the Persian defeated the Bablyonians & free the Jews, where the Temple was erected once more & yes Herod did reconstruct it almost totally... the entire site is holy
I am truly sorry for people throwing stones at you while you or anyone is praying... that is terrible & forbidden... the conflict in the mideast can hardly be labeled a religous clash, as if Judaism & Islam cannot coexsist...
I am not writing bull, I dont do that, I take speech very seriously as do matters of civil peace & the advancment of society are concerned...
take care May Allah Bless
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
A chemist, huh?
I hope you don't work for any company I own stock in.
Hugh wisely suggested that newcomers read the archives. If you do and are as intelligent a you seem to think you are you will discover that most of the posters and readers of this site are not going to be baffled by your command of of the brown stuff produced by male bovines.
Only on the floor of the US House of Representatives does wordiness overcome logic.
"*IA* hate will one day stop... its not the muslims Vs christians Vs Jews.... it does not have to be that way, why do people not onyl accept this but try to summon it by means of apathetic libel?"
Posted by: AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
Read the Koran. It's all there: "the muslims Vs christians Vs Jews...." ad nauseam.
/What is he smoking?
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew, thank you for the clarification on the Temple Mount, I appreciate it.
So, this brings us back to the point that Muslims have no claim to it.
As far as Allah blessing me, I don't believe that Allah and my God are one in the same. I believe that Allah was a figment of Muhammad's imagination, as the man thought, and perhaps he was right, that he was possessed by demons.
In Islam, a believer is permitted to lie for the sake of Islam....This goes against one of the 10 commandments that says...."Thou shalt not lie."
It's a shame that decent and intelligent Muslims don't speak up more about the contradictions that Islam is full of. Then again, Muslims questioning their own faith has far too many times turned out to be deadly for them...A true shame.
It's a shame that decent and intelligent Muslims don't speak up more about the contradictions that Islam is full of. Then again, Muslims questioning their own faith has far too many times turned out to be deadly for them...A true shame.
posted by DC watson
Therin lies the problem. The true definition of this Peace we are supposed to look forward to.
If you kill all the test animals that are not blind you will develop a hybrid that is all blind.
In response to AuntBea, with whom may Allah guide & be pleased
Your stocks & transient possesions of this world are safe from me, for as a Muslim I do not wish to harm anyone & desire to live in peace... it is almost as if I encouter such stubborn people that they wish not to make peace
Either in trade for a room to make a joke or a reluctant heart that feels threatened at not having anyone to hate... no bad guy is no fun
I am sorry to tell you that your assupmtion is wrong, & that it is not a good habit to presume the features & quailities of a self actualizing creature & then still manage to cast even this foray into the unknown.
very few people have respect in this world...
I never expect to baffle anyone especially "by your command of of..."
Now that doesnt make any sense at all, or is it just me? Is this upside down world?
Where Logic is is simply dismissing another's soveriegnty of thought & ability to reason as in these cases been described as 'fecal matter'
I have attempted somewhat carefully my words to explain, in a concise manner, where as I all I have recieved are ad hominem strikes & the occaisional complete overlook at what I have to say...
My advise would be to not confuse having something to say with having to say something
peace
SLM
NO where in Islam is a person allowed to lie...
NO where in Islam is a person allowed to lie...
Posted by: AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
Is this true?
Please explain Takiyya and Kitman. Enquiring minds need to know.
ADazzling,
I appreciate that you claim to want peace with "all" faiths. I have met several muslim individuals in the same category. Peace, love, lets all get along. I fell for it like a stone falling down a mountain. My interaction with these muslims turned me into a believer who believes most muslims generally lie to all non-muslims. I had to experience myself before I believed it.
I had mistakenly thought that "interaction" meant communication and discussion about Islam and Christianity. I had always been fascinated by other faiths and who/what/why they worshipped. I loved asking religious questions. However, I quickly learned that no questions were allowed regarding Islam.. I was invited to become a muslim and learn what I needed to afterward. Didn't make sense to me. Why did I have to become a muslim THEN learn about the faith
I apparently insulted these "peace loving friends" by asking questions forbidden for an unbeliever or even any muslim to ask. I was mystified because I didn't ask any harder questions than I would have with Christianity, Hinduism, Jewish, etc.
I was clearly innocent of any knowledge about Islam but that was unacceptable to my muslim friends. I immediately became to them a "racist" "bigot" and a horrible person to them. All because I asked a few questions? It was then that I started searching out websites, reading books like Robert Spencer's "The Truth About Mohommad" and yes I even have a copy of the Qu'ran.
I've learned more about Islam from this site and others like it, than I have from any muslim who claims to want love, peace and acceptance of all faiths. So, please, spare me the "togetherness" hype. I know from experience that what muslims say is totally opposite to what they actually do.
@ dazzlingplaceIneverknew
I do believe that the Islamic web sites would greatly benefit from your postings.
Spread the good word to those who need it most. The worfs of peace and love.
Start with Hamas, Fatah.
Then tour Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, just to name a few.
See if you can last more than a week with the Muslim brothers.
Good luck in your quest.
Not be so hard on him pr126. I want him to stick around so he can meet Naseem. I think they are a match made in allahland. lol
Sorry, that should read
Do not be...
And yes Hugh, I too confess that I thought it was you at first. But after further reading, it became clear that the poster is just a half educated, well meaning idiot.
Jews have no historical connection to the Western Wall, which is actually the "Al-Buraq Wall," is part of the Al Aqsa Mosque and served as a tying post for Muhammad's horse, according to messages broadcast this month on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' state-run television.
Abbbas's views are not all that uncommon today among Muslims, especially with Palestinian Muslims. I predict that there will be much more conflict over this issues in the days to come.
Ishmael was a thief, and a thief he still is, and will stay so until G-d forces him to make peace with his brother Isaac.
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew is something like that snake that uses hypnotism to say to his prey: be very still, I love you, I will not hurt you.
Bite. Snap. Swallow. Next victim.
It would dazzle me to no end to see those bloody muslims finally get out of Jerusalem. Under that god forsaken building they wish to call a mosque is the temple of David.
Enough is enough. Allah is not my God, not the God of love and understanding that I know.
The muslims, through their reprehensible behaviour, prove this day in and day out. Do you see christians torching mosques or blowing themselves up in muslim cafes? Do you see jews preaching "death to the muslim infidels". No. Only the muslims feel they have the right through their god-damned arrogance to allow such a pitiful thing.
Enough is enough. A spade is a spade.
And please notice that our dear AdazzlingplaceIneverknew doesn't have enough courage to link his email address to his posting.
Cowardly, but typical islamic behaviour.
I could just spit!
I have attempted somewhat carefully my words to explain, in a concise manner, where as I all I have recieved are ad hominem strikes & the occaisional complete overlook at what I have to say...
My advise would be to not confuse having something to say with having to say something
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
What exactly are you trying to say? That I am a hater? Beleive me I have some real things to hate in this world and they don't include sad little people like you.
I have a very good education and was simply expressing the fact that you are not making any sense, regardless of how many multi-syllable words you throw in.
What difference does it make if you believe that Islam is Peace and Love? If the other 99.9% of the adherents to your 'faith' believe in first degree murder? Or will I see you on the evening news tarring and feathering in the streets those Mullahs who are being recorded as preaching hate and first degree murder in Mosques here and abroad?
In case you still don't understand, my question is why do you think what you are saying is going to counter the hard cold evidence on a daily basis that Peaceful Islam is a figment of your imagination?
I got hit over the head (literally with a menu in a collgeetown pizza joint) with Islam in 1972 by Parvin the Persian because I wouldn't acknowlege her as a superior being. I read and was disgusted with the Koran.
Now according to your "lets all live in peace" line I am a bigot and a hater.
I just like to see when one of you adherents get challenged a little how rapidly your vocabulary and sentence structure starts falling apart.
So I have a weird sense of humor. So do you if you think that the people on this website are going to get anything out of your ravings.
The opening chapter of Dore Gold's new book, The Fight for Jerusalem, deals with Arab revisionism. He calls the effort to deny the Jewish presence in Jerusalem and the existence of the Jewish temple as "temple denial." Sort of like Holocaust denial, but rewritting history that occurred millennia ago instead of decades ago.
Something adazzlingplace might not be aware of is that Jihad Watch readers fully understand the meaning of "peace" when used by an islamist and we're not buying his taqiyya.
Amazing how many Muslim buy into this claim that Islam was the first religion on Earth and that everyone is a Muslim by birth , Muhammed created a retro-active religion that robbed verses from the Torah and New Testiment just to fool the fools into believing he spoke the words of God and was a messenger to reveal the Christian pigs and Jewish apes that worship false Gods.
The guy was a Orphan that was abused and had a sex fetish that evolved to pedophilia in his later years as some sort of transference to justify his painful childhood, he's a basic wingnut if you ask me.
scaramouoche
Dore Gold ranks!! He's on CSPAN this weekend. I saw him last weekend. Booknotes. I have his book and now must read it.
"The Fight for Jerusalem"
CSPAN BOOKNOTES
Dore Gold on right now
Hirsi Ali on later
Robert Spencer and his Muhammad book on at 1AM Tuesday
ALL Eastern time
In truth the temple area always belonged to the Jews.
"However these statements were not made recently. Rather, they were made at a time when then Prime Minister Ehud Barak was sitting in a room at Camp David, trying to forge a peace agreement with Yasser Arafat's Palestinian government."
So, why are the journalists bringing it up now? What the purpose- who's behind this bringing up the matter now? To push a fight now?
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a d***n whether the jews or the islamics own the "wall" or the "mount!" How ridiculous to fight over that -that's not important. Why does the U.S. have to get involved with the nonsense of those 2 sides?
Those are religions - whether legitimate or not. That is the problem with religions, the jews as well as the islamics. Such idiocy! To have the danger of a war for a faulking piece of wall and a shitty mosque.
This is the reason I hate ALL religions!
Let them duke it out themselves!!
Hey, Huge, the gibbermeister, Al Dazz saith:
"if I may, immediately require some attention in order to clarify the dynamic positions that designed, are sturctured to vacillitate, and thus in lack of being defendedable,remain unoperated and engineered to leave little choice but to impress oneself into & to undertake the rough angle become apologist or apostatically included that the ensuing lines that have neccessarily been drawn specifically here, the ones in which not only are unresolving onto themselves, in light of the aim, but however futher venture into proffesion of knowledge when their exsists not a legitimate or impartial posture one may take in order to provide their, yes, obligatory role to make straight the path & clear understanding."
After you quoted him, It became all so clear to me:
Declear the Crudase and Be Unite!
My Dearest Al Dazz,
I realize you are probably not the Jew-Hatin' Infidel head chopper that some your brethren are, but really, we hear this line all the time, and all we see is total dysfunction in your non-existential realm of Kumbaya.
You say there are not two houses, but there are indeed two houses. I rather like living in Al Harb, because I got a great view of Superior Infidel Technology on my High Definition Flat Panel Idiot Box. Which is something most of your peaceful practitioners of the One, True Faith can't say. And furthermore, al Dazz, we don't use cell phones to blow each other up in Chez Le Harb. We have our problems, but the main problem in Chez le Harb is that we have a press and government which pretend as you do that Islam is a Religion of Peace, and that it is but a Tiny Minority of Misunderstanders of Islam who are responsible for the few, if any, acts of terroristic misunderstanding perpetrated against the Infidels and their Zionist monkey-pig Masters....like those three Indonesian girls whose heads became Ramadan presents....for, you know, the Misunderstanders of Islam.
Sly snakes as musmils are, they will not admit but along with looting, murder and all kinds of concievable crimes that Islam promotes, land-grabbing is one that is little talked about. Those coming from Bombay (now Mumbai) will remember the mosque at Marine Drive that sits in the middle of the road and the road bending around it. This is classic example of land-grabbing where muslims insisted that the land the mosque is on, cannot be given away to kafirs (in this case Hindus). The fact is that muslims grab any piece of land "for ever", never to return outside dar al-islam.
What Islam calls "religious duty", we, in civilized world, call it plain and simple criminal "land grabbing".
Yes, of course, Jerusalem was first a Jewish city...long before Christianity or Islam came on the scene. My heart is sick over the Muslims trying to take the Western Wall away from the Jews.. they have tried in the past and will try again in a 1,000 different ways. The Muslims are also trying to rewrite Christian history. I am not familiar with all of the theology, but their basic rewrite involves the claim that Jesus was a Palestinian rather than a Jew. I suspect that they have tried to do the same thing with aspects of the Hindu religion. They must have it all...land, air, sea, history and religion. Ownership and control is everything to them and they will stop at nothing to have it all..
I am truly sorry for people throwing stones at you while you or anyone is praying... that is terrible & forbidden...
Yeah ,that's what you all say.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/video/palestinians-celebrate-911.mov
Carolyn2, sorry I didn't get back to you the other day.
I noticed you posted something for me but I lost it . If you remember it please post it on my blog and I'll get back to you.
Or you can e-mail me at sheik@sheikyermami.com
NO where in Islam is a person allowed to lie...
Posted by: AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
Qur’an 3:28 “Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless it is done to guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against his retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming."
Qur’an 16:106: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.”
NO where in Islam is a person allowed to lie...
Posted by: AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."
Qur'an 66:1 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."
Bukhari:V4B52N268 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.'"
There's a whole page of other examples here,
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Deception.Islam
According to the unholy Qur'an, the entire world belongs to Allah and his primitive, barbaric hordes, the Mohamedans, so the Western Wall is no exception. What irks me is not the Mohamedan claim to Jewish land, but rather the dhimmi Jewish apathy and silence in response.
"Not be so hard on him pr126. I want him to stick around so he can meet Naseem. I think they are a match made in allahland. lol"
He, he,he. (a little smiley with a huge grin and horns).
AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
Hey, its El Rodney AlKing! "Can't we all just get along?" Snake.
Let me re-post what I said earlier this month when this story first broke, and then expand what I meant and then address what has been said now.
"May I, a humble(!) archaeologist be allowed to put this particular story into some sort of scientific context. As many of you who read and post here will know I claim to be an archaeologist and to post here, occasionally (and, I hope, not too boringly), on the subject as it nearly and most closely touches upon the prime purpose of this site. So, I wish to do so again and about this story.
As I know it, the Antiquities Authority has, by law, to carry out this dig. The new bridge, which is what all this fuss is about, is simply a pedestrian walkway replacing the stone ramp leading up to the Mughrabi Gate which collapsed, in part, in a storm about three years ago and was found to be unsafe by the city civil engineers - and was obviously unsafe to the eyes of anyone who looked at it.
Before any new work can be undertaken within the walls of Jerusalem (actually, in a much wider area than that but the details need not concern us here) we archaeologists are given a period of time under Israeli law and, before the War, under Jordanian law, variable, to undertake whatever dig we deem to be appropriate. This has always been the case - for many, many decades - and has never before provoked moslems to utter such outrageous calumnies about us as they are doing at the moment.
The actual dig is taking place well outside the historic foundation walls of the mosk and is, indeed, some 450 yards, at least, from the outermost foundations of the mosk in question. Due to recent improvement works to the foundations of the mosk - during which moslems removed, without authority either from the Israeli government or from the King of Jordan, hundreds and hundreds of lorry loads of material from the Temple Mount (thereby irretrievably damaging the archaeology of the site), the works of we archaeologists could not, even if we wanted them to, affect, in the slightest, the mosk.
The visible, and invisible underground foundations, of the retaining foundation walls of the Temple Mount next to the faulty walkway are also in no danger since we know, with an absolute certainty, that they are so thick and so well built - despite being some several thousands of years old - that there is no possibility that we can damage them during this current excavation. In other words, there is no possibility whatsoever of any type of cascade failure which could imperil the existence of any structure atop the Temple Mount including the illegally built Al Aksa mosk.
It is so difficult for an archaeologist to get a licence to join an excavation team working anywhere near the Temple Mount that I can state, with absolute certainty, that all of the people working on this dig are bound to be amongst the best in the world and that they will have the backing of, and the expert advice from, some of the world's foremost civil and materials engineers as employed, or commissioned, by the governments of Israel and, equally as importantly in this context, Jordan.
Further, under Israeli law, the Antiquities Authority is required to carry out a salvage excavation before any construction at this site. Yuval Baruch, the authority's chief archeologist for Jerusalem, has stated that the dig is at least 75 yards from the foundation walls of the Temple Mount - and I have been, as part of a student team (and I was deeply honoured to have been chosen), to the site and I can assure you that what Yuval Baruch has said is true.
I know that I am a young and relatively inexperienced archaeologist - that I am at the very beginning of my career - but I have to say to you that in my opinion the idea that there is any risk whatsoever to the Al Aksa mosk is just sheer and utter fantasy - a rampant, stupid and fantastical story put about by the deranged and lunatic minds of mohammedanism for their own political gain.
What's more Yuval Baruch has said on Israel Radio (as I understand it) that:
"We invite everyone to come see." and "We are working under the open sky and have nothing to hide."
So, what on Earth (or in the earth, if you prefer a bad pun) is going on here. Well, let's start with a quotation from the Iraeli Prime Minister's Office: "The construction of the bridge, located in its entirety outside the Temple Mount, has no impact on the Mount itself, and certainly poses no danger to it."
Here, here: and any archaeologist worth his salt knows that this is true.
Then, let's remind ourselves of Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount in 2000 which was used to set off the so-called second intifada. These wretched moslems, in their ignorance and barbarity, evidently also see some mileage in a re-run of the violent clashes of 1996. (1996 was the year in which a second exit to the Western Wall tunnel was opened and, apparently (according to the damned, barbarian moslems), this sensible expansion of crush area facilities was also some sort of clandestine attempt to damage moslem interests on the Temple Mount as was the archaeological dig which preceded these eminently sensible civil works and which resulted in the murder of at least three archaeologists by the illiterate, barbarian moslems.)
Palestinians are falsely claiming that this entire project to replace the badly damaged and faulty ramp with a new bridge is a clandestine Israeli plot to dig under, and cause damage to, the Al-Aksa mosk. This is sheer, absolute paranoia - only the most deranged and over-active of minds could make such an assumption or believe that such a thing is possible.
Obviously, Sheikh Raed Salah, and the other Palestinian leaders, are merely attempting to exploit this issue for their own nefarious purposes, probably in an attempt to redirect so-called Palestinian anger against Israel in the midst of a bloody internal conflict and thereby to diffuse the situation in the Gaza strip.
The problem is, from my point of view, that, once more, innocent archaeologists, both Israeli and Jordanian, will be the targets of these fanatical moslems - the majority of the uncivilised moslem horde, in my experience, are uniquely antipathetical towards archaeologists (especially those who profess to be moslem) and archaeologists routinely lose their lives at the hands of barbarian moslems in all corners of the world - and the important work going on upon, and around, the Temple Mount (and, indeed, throughout Jerusalem) will, once more, be brought to halt by the ignorant, scarcely educated, barbaric moslem sheiks and politicians who, for all the reasons that we who post here already know, resist any sort of rational learning or enlightenment, for their minds are closed to knowledge and exploration of knowledge, by virtue of having been indoctrinated with the false and devilish tenets of islam as expressed in the their so-called holy book - namely, the koran - may God rot it.
Now, according to this article, "According to Salah's sermons, which can be found on his group's websites, Jews have absolutely no connection to the 'al-Buraq Wall', the name given by Muslims to the site."The Mugrabi Gate is part of the western wall of al-Aqsa," says Salah in a sermon number 32, which can be found on his websites dedicated to his organization.
This is just stupid and silly. Even the most juvenile first-year archaeologist knows that the Temple Mount and the 'Wailing Wall' were constructed by Jews and that the Temple Mount is the site of the original Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The scientific, archaeological evidence for that statement is incontrovertible. I will accept no arguments against the evidence. The first Jewish Temple on Har haBáyit was built somewhere around 1,000BC and all the archaeology bears this out. There can be no doubt about it. The nineteenth century surveys carried out by Charles Wilson and Charles Warren are conclusive, and, although not up to modern standards, sufficiently rigorous for any sane individual, which obviously excludes mohammedans of any hue, to conclude that the Temple on Har haBáyit was, indeed, the original Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
Further, all the excavations and explorations and analyses by we archaeologists over many decades have firmly concluded - beyond a shadow of a smidgeon of a doubt - that the retaining walls of the Temple Mount which we see today - of which, the 'Wailing Wall' is merely one, date from the Second Temple and were therefore built somewhen between 515BC to 450BC. There are no doubts, no quibbles, no alternative theories, no 'ifs' or 'buts' - just hard scientific fact. Every facet of our science has been deployed here and every result points to the same conclusion - the Jews, the elder faithful, for reasons deeply connected with their beliefs, built an incredibly expensive and large Temple structure within the walls of their capital, and, one presumes, Holy, city. They accomplished this work with simple tools, and great piety, over 1,000 years before the sperm which would give rise to the disease-ridden idiot, the so-called prophet mohammed, was even liberated from his father's scrotum.
The Dome of the Rock was built around 690AD and the Al-Aqsa Mosque around 710AD - as I said above, over 1,000 years after Jewish builders built the Second Temple. Both were built as a political exercise simply to legitimate violent islam in its own eyes and in the eyes of the world. At the time, Jerusalem was the only Holy city that mohammedans knew of, therefore it was essential for them to be able to stake a claim there - and, oh boy, haven't they managed to do that!
The article which Robert has posted here also says "...moving even the smallest pebble in the larger Temple Mount area will draw similar reactions, even if it is minor repair work to the Western Wall.... What utter and ridiculous codswallop. What sheer hubris and stupidity. These self-same arrogant and ridiculous mawzlem destroyers have already removed, without authority either from the Israeli government or from the King of Jordan - bear with me here, his approval is necessary under a very civilised agreement reached between him and the Israeli government - hundreds and hundreds of lorry loads of material from the Temple Mount - almost ten thousand tonnes (thereby irretrievably damaging the archaeology of the site) and are proposing to remove, willy-nilly, another six-thousand tonnes in order to built yet another minaret - without the approval of any of the authorities which might conceivably have rights over this site.
This is nothing more than deliberate provocation and wholesale vandalism of a World Heritage Site by a small group of self-centred islamists who believe, as we all know, that they can do no wrong and for whom the past, the real and true history, simply does not matter.
What staggers me, what beggars my belief, is that the current Israeli government is giving in to these under-educated and illiterate mawzlem people who wouldn't know a scientific proof if it walked up to them and slapped them across the face with a wet fish. The Israeli government has agreed to suspend the dig and the repair work in order, so we are told, to calm mawzlem fears. Then the damned mawzlems come right back with yet another set of demands. When will we ever learn? For God's sake. What is going on here? Why this compleat dhimmitude?
Dominic.
""The Western Wall - on all its various parts, structures and gates, and all the names these parts, structures and gates are called – is an inseparable part of the al-Aqsa compound," declared Islamist leader Sheikhh Raed Salah."
I think that it's time that this man asked his wives just which mushrooms they are using to flavour his dinner - and that's a professional opinion! Hmm!
Dominic.
Oh, and in case anyone out there thinks that sixteen thousand tonnes of removed spoil doesn't seem like much, let me tell you all that that represents about thirteen percent of the site. Couple that with what must have been removed to build the extant mawzlem structures on on Har haBáyit - probably fifty thosand tonnes - and we are looking at wholesale vandalism of this most important site.
Undoubtedly this is, and was, quite deliberate on the part of the barbarian mawzlem horde. Obliterating our history makes it so much easier to obliterate us in the long run.
Dominic.
And in case any Christian visiting this site thinks that this article and it's associated comments have nothing to do with him or her then let me ask them this - what happened to the Church of St. Cyrus and St. John, later on enlarged and called the Church of the Holy Wisdom?
Well?
You don't know! Then let me tell you.
It was destroyed by the damned mawlem horde and on its ruins they constructed that temple of satan which we now know as the Dome of the Rock.
And the synagogue which Maimonides worshipped in atop the Temple Mount - what happened to it? Ask those damned mawzlems for they are the ones who destroyed it, too!
Obliterate then lie, that's their creed!
Dominic.
I know that this will come as a shock to many JW readers but Sheikh Salah is right. The Western Wall does belong to Muslims.
I sold it to them for $50 just the other day.
I had a friend in college who sincerely believed that he saw God... of course he was on LSD at the time... one wonders what Mo was on? ... maybe he ate some tainted rye bread (ergot) or some of those wonderful little mushrooms...
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a d***n whether the jews or the islamics own the "wall" or the "mount!" How ridiculous to fight over that -that's not important."
....Both Muslims and Jews do consider the wall very important...If you lived there you would have to choose one side or the other , there is no neutral corner....Muslims want every inch of earth, The Jews just want want to survive on their relatively small parcel...There is a difference.....
....Muslims hate the truth.....and they do not care what you think.....
NO where in Islam is a person allowed to lie...
Posted by: AdazzlingplaceIneverknew at February 18, 2007 11:21 AM
You're dead wrong.
I suppose the Qur'an and Ahadith are not part of Islam then? Two of the three foundations of Islam are filled of examples where Allah deceives or Mohammed deceives and both approve of it.
You are either lieing now or I know more about your belief system than you do:
DECEPTION IN ISLAM - THE EVIDENCE
Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”
Koran 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
Koran 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”
Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
Koran 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”
Bukhari:V7B71N661 “Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.”
Bukhari:V6B60N8 “Umar said, ‘Our best Koran reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah’s Apostle himself said, “Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.”
Koran 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”
Koran 33:21 “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.”
Koran 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
Koran 74:52 “Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear.”
Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”
Koran 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”
Koran 47:24 “Do they not understand the Koran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding.”
Ishaq:548 “By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ‘There is not much honesty among people nowadays.’”
Koran 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Koran 5:101 “Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.” Koran
5:102 “Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”
Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”
Koran 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”
Ishaq:248 “Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment.”
Koran 2:6 “As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.”
Koran 2:9 “They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).”
Koran 8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.”
Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”
Koran 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”
Koran 8:71 “If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.”
Tabari VII:85/Ishaq:363 “The Jews of the Qaynuqa replied, ‘Muhammad, do you think that we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowledge and you made good use of your opportunity.’”
Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”
Koran 61:5 “Moses said: ‘O my people, why do you annoy and insult me, when you well know I am Allah’s Messenger?’ Then when they turned away, Allah caused them to be deceived.”
Bukhari:V4B52N233 “Allah’s Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying copies of the Koran. [He said:] Unbelievers will never understand our signs and revelations.”
”
Bukhari:V4B52N147 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A man may seem as if he were practicing the deeds of Paradise while in fact he is from the people of Hell.’”
Koran 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”
Ishaq:383 “One of the young men’s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ‘You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.’”
Koran 3:24 “They have been deceived by the lies they have themselves fabricated; their religion has deceived them.”
Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”
Tabari VIII:23 “The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Koran. Then Nu’aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.’ Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N408 “When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ‘This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.’ The (Meccans) said, ‘If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ‘This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.’ The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ‘Apostle of Allah.’ On that Ali said, ‘I will never erase it.’ Muhammad said, ‘Let me see the paper.’ The Prophet
erased the expression with his own hand.”
Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”
Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”
Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”
Bukhari:V7B71N661 “Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.”
Bukhari:V6B60N8 “Umar said, ‘Our best Qur’an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah’s Apostle himself said, “Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.”
Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”
Qur’an 33:14 “Say, ‘Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you?’”
AdazzlingplaceIneverKnew
Your post reminds me of when I read Edward Said's "Orientalism." What you say is just as useless and meaningless. I think you should take your peace jihad to your Muslim brothers. Abraham has little asociation with the temple mount, which is beside the point anyway. The point of tension between jews and muslims or muslims and anyone else for that matter, is that they would dare have any will to self determenation or independence. The most insulting thing about Isreal is the fact that its simply not Islamic and not ruled by muslims. How dare jews want more than being second class citizen and poor puapers to their muslim overlords. How dare they have any superior goverment and technology. Islam being a totalitarian cult that strives to rule the world and everyone in it can't tolorate competition. A muslim asking can't we all just get along= silently submit to Islam and be ruled. I sugguest that you study your religion a little more.
Dominic:
Congratulations on gaining tenure. I always enjoy reading your insightful comments, even when I disagree (which is rare).
I may be wrong, but I think most archaeologists regard the Western Wall as one of the retaining walls for the Temple Mount complex that was built by Herod. Herod, being an Idumean (rather than Judean) included the Temple makeover as part of his massive campaign of public works in order to enhance his stature with the priestly aristocracy of the day.
The "Palestinians" have tried to confuse the issue in a number of ways. Shalah is just repeating a claim made by Arafat that the Jews have no ties to Jerusalem. Arafat told anybody who would listen that the Temple had been in Nablus (ancient Shechem) or on Mt. Gerizim. The latter is holy to the Samaritans, who still exist in small numbers in Samaria. They are Israelites but not Jews, claiming descent from some of the 10 "lost" tribes scattered by the Assyrian conquest of Israel in 722 BCE. The Assyrians tried but failed to conquer Jerusalem/Judah, which survived another 130+ years until the Babylonians came.
American soldier:
The story of the Akedah, in which Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac, takes place on Mt. Moriah, which is identified with the Temple Mount by both Jewish and Christian scholars. This story is one of the foundations of the Jewish people and religion (pointing away from the human sacrifices made by other peoples at that time) so the association between Abraham and the Temple Mount is very strong.
Muslims appropriated and bowdlerized the story, having Abraham nearly sacrifice Ishmael rather than Isaac, though I'm not sure of the location they claim. Given that the oldest Jewish texts with the story (the Septuagint and the Targums) date back 700-900 years before Islam, I have always been amused by Muslim claims they've got it right. When they show me a Koran that dates back 1000 years before the birth of Mohammed, then they can talk.
A Dazz:
Awful nice of you to make prophets out of Solomon and David, but that's another thing the Muslims got wrong when they copied Biblical stories. They were Kings of the United Monarchy (i.e. both Judah and Israel) originally set up by the prophet Samuel (Nabi Samwil to you). They were not prophets according to the Bible or Jewish tradition.
Oh, and another thing in the Koran that has always bothered me...Jews do not and never have regarded Ezra the scribe as the son of the Lord.
If you're going to rip us off, at least get it right!
material guy/
Thanks for the kind comments.
Archaeologists generaly think that the Western Wall, The Kotel, dates from the time of the Jewish Second Temple, circa 515BC to 70AD. Herod the Great built the vast retaining walls around Mount Moriah. He thereby significantly expanded the platform of Har ha-Bayit into the shape and size which we know it to be today.
Dominic.
Beware of Mohammedans offering you peace and brotherhood. They are slithering liars. Their ideology allows neither peace nor friendship--let alone brotherhood--with free people (non-Moslems).
The only way I look at a Moslem is when he is a bit blurred but the gunsight is sharp and black right on him. That is the only condition when I am ready to communicate with him. That is the only situation when I am ready to debate him.
And in this situation, I believe firmly in gun control. Hold steady, squeeze . . .
End of debate.
MaterialGuy
Thanks for the insights into Jewish/Biblical history
materialguy/
My apologies. My last post lacked its final sentence and therefore makes no sense. I was in a hurry and hungry. The full paragraph should read, with its final sentence:
'Archaeologists generaly think that the Western Wall, The Kotel, dates from the time of the Jewish Second Temple, circa 515BC to 70AD. Herod the Great built the vast retaining walls around Mount Moriah. He thereby significantly expanded the platform of Har ha-Bayit into the shape and size which we know it to be today. It would appear from the archaeological evidence that he (Herod) had no need to rebuild the Western Wall, but he may have heightened it, for it was already more than fit for his purpose.'
I'd also like to add that without proper excavations on and around Har ha-Bayit it is very difficult to tell just where one period ends and another begins. Apart from being religiously significant to Jews and Christians it is also one of the most fascinating archaeological sites in the world.
A lot of good work was done by Professor Yigal Shiloh and his team in Area G, as well as by Professor Nahman Avigad on the Broad Wall. Dr. Gabriel Barkai did sterling work on the Hinnom Flank of the Mount (it was this excavation which found the two tiny little silver scrolls which contain the earliest known version of Birkat Hakohanim - the priestly benediction).
Of course, many other first class archaeologist are, and have been, involved in uncovering the history (the true history that is, not the concocted mawzlem version which is just a pack of self-serving inventions and lies put together to serve their own inferiority complex) of the Temple Mount and, indeed, ancient Jerusalem. There is still much to learn.
Dominic.
Dominic,
Thanks very much for your information on the current state of archaeology around the Temple Mount. After googling some of the names you mention, memories came back of my last visit to Jerusalem about 18 months ago. My group got to see (among other things) some of the Area G excavations done by Eilat Mazar. At that time she thought she might have uncovered the royal palace of King David...wonder if there's anything new out of what is a very controversial dig.
materialguy/
Dr. Mazar maybe a little over-keen in her interpretations of her finds but she is certainly NOT venturing into territory outwith the realms of possibility. She has worked, in the excavations to which you refer (and, as I understand it), on the miloh, or infill area, which separates the summit of the Mount and the Temple from the city below - Area G. It is not inconceivable that the 'Large Stone Structure' which she has certainly identified - no doubt about that - might be the remains of King David's palace or fort. More excavation will be required eventually to ascertain whether or not this structure is built on Solomonic remains.
However, I must caution, at this point, about the lack of wisdom in trying to reconcile archaeology with tradition - and ancient writings! So often the traditions and the writings - whilst not actually being geographically or physically wrong with regards to the details contained therein - are erroneous in their attribution of eras and persons. Archaeology is hard science but the interpretation of archaeological findings is a soft science - a best guess. The recension of ancient writings and traditions is uniquely complicated also. Marrying the two in order to make sense of both and to give a semblance of order to our history is difficult at best and, at worst, a nightmare of gargantuan proportions - deep water in which many scholars have foundered.
Certainly, Dr. Eilat Mazar has impeccable credentials and has never been known to indulge in far-fetched and nonsensical explications of her findings. She is a third generation archaeologist and she got her Ph.D. from the Hebrew University about ten years ago, as I understand it. She is, what is more, the grand-daughter of the very highly respected archaeologist Benjamin Mazar - one of our great archaeologists. She is also a senior fellow at the Shalem Center. You don't get all of that by being a speculative fool!(Leastways, not in Israel today.)
For me, and this is purely my personal judgement in a field of expertise in my profession which I know very little about, her uncovering on this site of pottery shards from the tenth century BC, together with a government seal which can be certainly attributed to Jehucal - with no doubt - whom we know from the ancient texts to have been the son of Shelemiah who was the son of Shevi who was an official mentioned, I think twice or thrice, if memory serves me correctly, in the Book of Jeremiah, clinches the deal, so to speak.
She may not have discovered the remains of the palaces which she postulates that she has but she has certainly uncovered incontrovertible evidence that 'The Large Stone Structure' dates from around 1,000BC, and that its foundations may be earlier - we await further excavation, and is undoubtedly Jewish in origin and nature and, as near as makes no difference, contemporaneous with the first Temple on the Mount.
Fascinating, isn't it? Her dig must rank as one of the most important and interesting in recent years.
I have not had the privilege of meeting Dr. Mazar but my father met her some years ago and was extremely impressed by her competence and calmness. I expect to be similarly so impressed should I ever meet her.
Dominic.
materialguy/
Further to my last post. I am neither a Biblical minimalist nor maximalist when it comes to 'The Large Stone Structure' uncovered by Dr. Mazar. I ought to say, also, that I am aware that some very prominent archeologists dispute her pottery dating (based, mainly, on superposition, so far, and not on scientific dating techniques such as carbon dating).
I am also aware that the later Iron Age pottery shards are comingled with the earlier Iron Age pottery remains - hardly surprising on such a continuously inhabited and always busy site. This means that really it is impossible to tell whether or not 'The Large Stone Structure' is early Iron Age - 12th. to 11th. Centuries BC - or Iron Age Two - 11th. to 10th. Centuries BC.
The difference is critical if we pay attention to the recensioned texts. Earlier and the remains may be Jebusite; later and the remains may be Davidian; even later - 9th. Century BC. - and they may be Omric (1st. Kings in the Bible).
However, I will not, currently, accept the slur that Dr. Mazar's interpretations of the findings on this site are tainted by a desire to placate her financial backers (a wealthy American Christian Fundamentalist Banker, so I understand, and the Ir David Foundation) because she has never evinced, in her entire career, a desire to cosy up to the sources of her finance. Why should she start now?
Dominic.
"I still hope that this world can be a better place... Muslims are not animals,"
Yes, I hope that this world can be a better place and muslims are not fit to be called animals. You and I seem to agree on something bedazzled.
materialguy
Ofcourse i meant the Islamic Abraham (Ibrahim). Their story has Ishmael as the intended sacrafice and takes place in Mecca, and has associations with the Kabba, not the temple mount. Alot of the hajj rituals center around this supposed event.
I am not a jew or a christian so I don't believe that Abraham was an actual historical figure anyway. His symbolic signifigance is clear though.
American_soldier/
There is very little reason to doubt, from an archaeological point of view, or, for that matter, from a scriptoral recensive point of view, that an Abrahamic figure - probably called Abraham (as translated into English but, probably and more acurately in Hebrew אַבְרָהָם) - actually existed.
That Abram (אַבְרָם in Hebrew) actually existed is not really called into doubt by most scholars today. Remember, if you will, that what we are dealing with here is a very small group of people with a fierce identity and an equally fierce will to record - in writing or in oral tradition - their history, in order to mark themelves out from the others around them.
All societies at the time did this. It is just that this particular society is one of the few whose records have survived. (Because of this very survival of records the idiot mohammed attempted to hitch his cult to this obviously ancient semitic culture and religion and thereby give his erroneous beliefs some spurious legitimacy - but that is another story)
The 'Toledoth' - Genesis - although not generally accurate does seem to be accurate when it comes to recording tribal origins and histories: the 'begats' as we call them. I see no reason to doubt the actual historical existence of the Patriarch Abraham.
However, if you want to talk about the spiritual content of the story of Abraham, or the hijacking of this story from Jewish history by mawzlems then we are straying into belief territory rather than archaeological or manuscriptal. There, at least in this post, I won't go. But, and it's a very big but, there are no scientific archaeological, or recensive manuscriptal, reasons for doubting the actual existence of an Abrahamic figure at the era posited by scripture and as an exemplar held up by scripture - and by the word 'scripture' I mean all the writings which have survived from that time, not, exclusively, religious writings.
Sorry, old chap, but not believing in Abraham, or an Abrahamic figure, puts you on very shaky ground when it comes to the archaeology of the Holy Land and the recension of the Jewish manuscripts. Scholarly speaking, the majority opinion is that such a figure - probably called Abram (אַבְרָם) actually existed.
Dominic.
from post above: "The guy was an Orphan that was abused and had a sex fetish that evolved to pedophilia in his later years.."
Well, actually "the guy," the pedophilic prophet, never existed..."The guy" is just a figment of Arab imagination.
"The Guy" -- the Mr. Mo -- never really existed. He's a cration of imaginative story tellers who were bent upon creating a fictional character who would fight, have sex with zillions of women, be the always "victorious" "warrior" and fulfill all an Arab's fantasies. That's it. A complete myth, grounded in FANTASY. Even that bit about "Mr. Mo flys to Jerusalem" on the back of a Buraq -- that nightmarish critter concocted from some assemblage of horse/woman/humanoid is just soooo hysterically ridiculous, so hilarious, so irrational, so delusional, so ID like. Ditto for much of the "religion." It's nightmarish (like someone stuck in some ghastly dream-state...and can't wake-up....)
” AdazzlingplaceIneverknew
I assume you are sincere but you need to understand what your diety Allah thinks of the non Muslim contribuors to this site**T
hen wonder how islam can live in peace with non Muslims (especially if you adopt Mohamamad as your role model for being a good Muslim- resd the sirat and the hadiths for a (re?) education.
**The Koran (Pickthall translation) says that disbelievers (non-Muslims) are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (some Christians and/or Jews were) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); are like frightened donkeys chased by a lion (74:50-51); are worse than cattle (7:179); are like dogs (7:176); they (idolators) are unclean (9:28); “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45, 2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); evil-livers (5:59); they have no good in them (8:23); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah (25:55); are the “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); have disgraced lives (22:9); are hypocrites (4:61); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); are deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); they have no sense (5:103, 10:100); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60); Allah sends devils against them to make them do evil (19:83); Allah cursed them for their unbelief (2:88-89), liars/they lie (2:10, 4:50, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11), “losers” (5:53, 7:178-179); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19), in false pride and schism (38:2), among the lowest (58:20); the lowest of the low (95:4-6).
In reading those insults, keep the following points in mind: These insults apply to disbelievers because they are disbelievers (disbelief is the worst crime); the insults are assumed to be the words of Allah and are therefore true of disbelievers for all time, until the Last Day; the disbelievers cannot do anything to improve Allah’s perception of them (He does not accept the good works of the disbelievers, see 5:5, 18:104-106, also 18:30, 33:19, 47:1-4, 47:32), except to believe in and obey Allah; and the insulting adjectives refer to the inherent character traits of disbelievers.
Tragically no peace can come from this spiritual being or his AUTHENTIC followers.
"Islam does not claim Jerusalem, Islam is not a person, nor a religion... Yes it is true Muslim live in the in Jerusalem, the world is in NO way divided into two abodes! Peace can be achieved "
....Islam does not claim Jerusalem, but Islam hates Jerusalem because it is important to the Jews...
"The city being of such evidently minor religious importance, why does it now loom so large for Muslims, to the point that a Muslim Zionism seems to be in the making across the Muslim world? Why do Palestinian demonstrators take to the streets shouting "We will sacrifice our blood and souls for you, Jerusalem" and their brethren in Jordan yell "We sacrifice our blood and soul for Al-Aqsa"? Why does King Fahd of Saudi Arabia call on Muslim states to protect "the holy city [that] belongs to all Muslims across the world"? Why did two surveys of American Muslims find Jerusalem their most pressing foreign policy issue?
Because of politics. An historical survey shows that the stature of the city, and the emotions surrounding it, inevitably rises for Muslims when Jerusalem has political significance. Conversely, when the utility of Jerusalem expires, so does its status and the passions about it. This pattern first emerged during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad in the early seventh century. Since then, it has been repeated on five occasions: in the late seventh century, in the twelfth century Countercrusade, in the thirteenth century Crusades, during the era of British rule (1917-48), and since Israel took the city in 1967. The consistency that emerges in such a long period provides an important perspective on the current confrontation"